The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Former Wisconsin Star Brian Butch on Recruiting Stories, Badgers Teams, Steph Curry NCAA Tourney Loss

Episode Date: May 6, 2021

In the first part of a two-part interview, Doug talks with former Wisconsin star center Brian Butch about his Wisconsin hoops upbringing, what it's like dominating high school ball as a 7-footer, getting recruited as a McDonald's All-American, his growth at Wisconsin, running into a Step Curry buzzsaw in the NCAA Tourney, and trying to find his footing as a pro. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to Season 14 of Family Secrets on the Eye Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The story I've told myself can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast Deeply Well with Debbie Brown

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You're going to love this. When I was at ESPN pretty early on, I said something about Brian Butch, the idea of whether he was overrated as a McDonald's All-American or whether the expect. of him were, you know, overrating him because, I mean, here's a perfect example. He read sure it his first year in college. But the story behind it is way more interesting than my take at the time. And my take on the time was kind of convoluted. It was more about expectations based upon a selection than it was any sort of personal shot at Brian.

But again, during the times in television, you're not really as thorough as I was and as thorough as I could have been in why I said what I said, and it caused, ruffled some people's feathers, I'm sure at the time, but I pissed him off at the time. Anyway, we're now sort of colleagues, right?

Like he's, he works for BTN, the Big Ten Network. He does a really good job. He's also very much involved in the youth basketball industry, so to speak. And I like him. I respect him.

He became a hell of a college player and had a long, long career professionally. So, I bring out to, we've been trying to sit down and do this thing for a long time. Here's my catch up with former All Big Ten selection, State of Wisconsin legend, and now radio host and Big Ten college basketball analyst, Brian Butch. Your first memory of basketball is where and when. Oh, that's a great question. I'd probably have to go with the local YMCA here in Wisconsin,

Appleton, just as a little kid, little tight rolling around, just hooping. Okay, so Appleton, for people who they don't want to Google search it, right? Yep. It's just south and west of Green Bay, right? Yeah, it's about 20 minutes from Green Bay. That's it. So a little south of Green Bay, about 20 minutes, that's it. So it's cold a lot of the time, all that fun stuff.

Everything that goes with Wisconsin, you can say that about it. Now, is Green Bay a suburb of Appleton or is Appleton a suburb of Green Bay? They're separate. So you got Appleton, it's kind of like the Fox Valley. You got a bunch of small communities together. And then you've got probably about a 15 to 20 minutes stretch where there's nothing really in between them. And then you got Green Bay. So I wouldn't say there's suburbs.

It's small city living. Pretty much Green Bay, small city, Appleton, and they're kind of separated by a little bit. Yeah. You grew up in the country? You grew up in the town. I grew up in a town, a city. So I'm not a country boy. I'm not that.

I've got a little city. Now it's not city, Milwaukee living. It's not Madison. living. It's kind of, when you look at it was nuts, there's three big areas. It's Madison, Milwaukee, and then we call it the Fox Valley. It's kind of all put together. So that's kind of where it's at.

Green Bay is a little bit outside of the Fox Valley, and then it's kind of all separated by, you know, smaller cities all throughout it. Okay. So you start playing at the Appleton, Appleton YMCA. Oh, yeah. And you're always bit, right? You always. So I was six-speed at six.

grade, 6-8 and 8th grade, 6-11 as a freshman. And every coach puts you down there like this, and let's throw the ball to Butch, and he's throwing it at the hoop, right? And everybody's fouling you. You never, you get called for fouls, even though you don't foul, and little guys are able to punch you in the nuts and never get called for a foul, right? Hold your bow. Completely, completely unfair.

Yes. As now, so you're growing up in Appleton or you a Wisconsin fan because the first, there's like 2000 when I graduated, you had that great team that went to the final four, right? And you had Mike Kelly, father of our country, right, with all them kids. He popped out, right? And it was a really, really good team. But it wasn't, nationally, it wasn't beloved because they played so slow, right? Roy Williams said what he said.

And then you have. Go ahead. But it wasn't even that, like, that they were playing slow. Like, before that, they just weren't good. Like, growing up, it wasn't like I was a Scotts of band, because they weren't good. Well, they had the one stretch where it was the big cat they had. Richard Griffin, yep. Yeah, Richard.

And him and Howard, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yep. They tried to put them on the map, but it wasn't, you know, finally when they got Dick Bennett there, he started to get it going a little bit. But by that point, I was already a freshman in a high school. So it wasn't like I was like, I got to watch Wisconsin basketball. But did you watch Green Bay when Tony was there and Dick was there?

Of course. Okay, so were you, did you like the Bucks? Were you, because Minnesota had dudes back then. They were cheating their balls off, right? And then I was there's all, when you grew up, like, what was the hoop that you watched on TV? Yeah, it was Carolina. Like, it was Carolina. That's what I watched up being a Carolina fan.

I would watch everything that they did. So I love that. And that was a big bucks. man like I love Vin Baker like it's crazy because Vin then the last two years or two years ago I was a assistant coach with Wisconsin herd and Vin would come down and coached with the herd he's now an assistant with the buck so it was it's crazy how it kind of you know this world is this life is for sure yeah exactly like it's just what it is so that was my guy Vin Baker was my guy like I love watching um so here's my here's my my my loan I have a couple of different

was Sam, Sam, Okay. Sam Oake. So Sam Oake and I, now this is, the story that I was told, and I don't know, you know in Wisconsin about, was that Herb Cole promised Sam, if he came to Wisconsin, then they built a coal center. I think that's bullshit, whatever. There's not much truth to that one.

That coal center was getting built one way or the other. It didn't matter if Sam was there. Sam didn't last long enough for it to even matter. I know. So Sam, so I fly. I go, I, I finish high school I played in two All-Star games. I got, I was like a fill-in for Chonsville who's got hurt for the Magic's Roundball game. And I go to the Coca-Cola All-American game in Indy and was run by Bob Knight's son.

So I fly in and two other dudes, Anthony Weiss, who's assistant at Sienna, was on that. And then Gary Bell, who was like our big recruit from Jolade, Illinois, who has an AU program in, I think, North Carolina. was there. And my two, my two members, he played Market Square. And my two memories of that game are one, I showed up at the first practice,

and I was like the lone kid from California. And Gary Bell was listed at 6-8, and he comes up walking up to me, and he's like 6-4-5. And I go, I thought you were 6-8. He's like, man, yo dog, if I was 6-8, I'd be outlawed. Yeah.

That was a great line. And then we go out, maybe after the game. And I've got, towards Oakey. Like he was a big personality. He had a fake ID. Well, he had a, he was a nut. But I had to drag him out of, he was going to get a fight in a bar, like two blocks from our hotel room, where I'm 19, he's 18, but he's a big old cat. He's about to fight these dudes, but he's hammered. And I had to drag him like two blocks to the hotel and then up to his hotel room and tuck him in.

and it was the first time I'd ever done that in my life. And I was like, that is a wild dude. That is a crazy, crazy dude. That's my, that's until I got to know Mike Kelly, that was all I knew about Wisconsin basketball. It was like Sam Oakey goes there. He's a nut. That's it. That's all I know.

Well, and Sam didn't last. Like, that was the thing about it, right? Like, Sam could have been this great guy. You can get lost in Madison. Like, it'll reach you up. Like, if you're there for the wrong reason, you can have a fun time down there. there. So that, I mean, that's the unique thing about it. It's funny you tell these stories because,

again, I end up going to the McDonald's game, and I'm rooming with Endo Ibi. And it's those stories are the same way. Like, I'm a naive kid from Wisconsin. I just want to hoop. Like, that's all, that's all I did. Like, I didn't drink. I didn't party. I was about as let's just get to work and let's do this. Like that's just the way I was wired. I had to grow up here there but nothing. All of a sudden, I'll wake up, and do you, he's got two girls next to me, next to him in the bed, and I'm just, I don't, this is all happening at the McDonald's game. And I'm like, what in the world? Okay, all right. Well, welcome to life outside of Wisconsin as far as this is what it is. Do you remember, I did the NBA draft when you got drafted. Do you remember

what, what Davis Stern announced him as, uh, duty eby. Duty E. E.B. And I was like, man, like the greatest moment of the greatest moment of this dude's life just got ruined because he couldn't read the card. Well, and I was just, I'll be honest, I was shocked with the pick because I was just like, like, he was good, but I, and then it's, you were right, they were wrong. Yeah, you were right, they were wrong. You were an incredible high school player in Appleton. What was, what's that experience like of being, like, it's, it, to the rest of the world,

it's a small town, as you point out, to Wisconsin. It's like one of the three big areas or whatever. But like you're as decorated a high school player as there has ever been in the state of Wisconsin. What was your high school experience like? It was great. I mean, every gym we went to, they had to sell out gyms, they had to sell tickets. I mean, kind of what you think in a small town. Like, we, everywhere we went, we had to get there early.

Tickets were being sold. Jims were being sold up. They were bringing bleachers in from everywhere. They were trying to cram as many people in to the gym. Jim's. The experience was fantastic. I mean, it was. We were a show everywhere we went. And I know that's kind of corny to say it, but in a small town, that, like, that's, that's what it was. Who else was on your squad? It doesn't matter if they're, they're not big names now. Who else is on your squad? Nobody will know any of them because there was only one guy.

We're giving them love. We're giving them love on the park. Nick Hanson, Matt Feet, Dusty Wabusheschew, guys by the name of Adam Hakey, Sean Golden, these guys, We're all guys, and I'm sure I missed a whole bunch of them, right? But these were guys that we just grew up a bunch of guys that just hoot. And we just put it together. It was now our high school coach prior to me getting to high school, he won a total of three games. Three games, total.

The year before you got there? No, no, total in his coaching career. Wait, wait, wait, how many years? He was there for three, coach for three years. He went three games total? Total. He went over, he went one, and he went two. So total.

So like this is not like I went to high school in a powerhouse. It, no, no, no. Like this was just the Appleton West High School and had a seven footer coming through. And the nice thing about it is like with all my guys, we could be real with each other. Like we would get into fights constantly because the expectations are, we have to be good. Like I'm not going to lose. Like we have to be good. This is what we're about.

And so it was fun. because we had guys buy in. And I mean, that was the fun part about it. Everywhere we went, people wanted to see what we were about, how we were about it. I mean, the big time, we did a holiday tournament down in Madison, and we ended up playing Greg Steensman. And you should have seen it. It was Greg ended up going to Wisconsin.

I went to Wisconsin. That was, like, everybody was there to see it. It was a great high school game. Most points you had in high school. How many? 45 state tournament game. against two played against Milwaukee Custer

and it was you'll like this it was literally Custer's last stand well but here's the thing like their coach did not want to double team me Doug didn't want to double team

and I set that that was the tournament record for points in a state tournament game it got broken by a Diener a double overtime game about shoot I was still playing there's a gaggle of Dieners

which Diner yeah so I I don't even know what it was because I was overseas playing. My phone blew up. So it had to be a couple of them because you're right. There's a bunch of them. But it was a kid from Cedarburg, a deaner that went to Cedarburg. That's all I knew is they hit me up and said he beat your record. It's like fantastic.

God damn the Dieners. I'm so tired of 30 years old too. So, I mean, they're playing high school in the 30. They held all of them back. But like. Hells that. The whole back. A little guy's got to be held back.

Have to. Have to. Have to. But a damn Diener. We don't need another Diner. Okay. So you get it going. Were you, and this is high school, are you talking to the coach?

Like, my one's going to double beat down here? I'm talking a little bit, but not much. Just because it's like more of the moment. Is at their gym or at your gym? This is at the Coles Center. This is a state tournament game. So this is big time, right? And he refused to double team, more or less telling me you're not good enough.

We don't think you're that good. So it was odd. And after the game, I remember getting to the meeting. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you saw it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories

I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. And just then, we felt the plain turn in the air, so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle. Each week, we dive head first into the complex power. of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships, and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know, but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything, and me pretending like everything was fine.

He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move, and he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off, and that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself.

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Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your. podcast. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Gorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show.

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All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is this? that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that Ness was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex? Dating at 45. How high can it be? How how can it be? Getting naked at 50 with a new guy. That one's kind of hard. Well, that's lighting. They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter, and dive into it, unfiltered and unbothered and ask, how hard can it be? I cannot believe I'm about to say this out loud. in public.

Listen to how hard can it be with Diana Maria Riva as part of my Coutura podcast network available on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I remember this to the day. I said, well, and it was a situation where I missed a free throw, my coach took me out, didn't realize that I could break the record, put me back in, and I got filed. And the coach for Custer was upset that my coach put me back in. Yeah, right. And I'm a high school, whatever.

Like if the coach tells you go back in, you go back in. you go back in. Like, that's not my call. But I remember the media asked me afterwards, he's like, do you think he should have been going back in? And I said to him, if he was so upset about me scoring 45, he maybe shouldn't have let me score 44. That's pretty good line at 17.

So at that, yeah, at that point, like then the, then they lost it. Like, the media lost, oh, wow. And that wasn't, that wasn't who I am. But, like, I was ticked because it's like, you should show me. It's a fair point. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation.

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Some equipment described is optional. And we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed.

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than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us.org, brought to you by the ad council. Did you guys win the state championship? We did not. We lost the state championship game. We lost. You talked about early on how a couple of files go one way or the other. I got my third file in the first quarter on a tick-tack file, and I walked back to the official. I said, I guarantee you that's the worst call I've ever seen. Nobody in this gym came to see you. And I said, I dare you to give me a technical for my four. Because I was heated.

Again, like we talked about our guys. We had one guy played college basketball. He was a walkout at Mall. Like we, it just, you know, we had a couple of other guys get some stuff later on. But it wasn't like we had D1 guys that were coming to play. Like we put together a squad. Did he give you that, did he give you a technical? No.

No, he knew better at that point. Like he, he knew better at that point. It was a tip tank over the best. Well, how did you lose? So we still, because I wasn't in the game. So we went out from about 10. We got down 10 right away. Like it was just, it was like that.

He puts you on the auto bench? Oh, that's what it was, you know. So, and all we did was play it zone. So at the time, I mean, I get it. You know, you're at the moment, okay, we can't let him get the file. We got to put them out. And I remember it to this day. So that's, I'll be, I'll be real.

That's one that bothers me. me still. When I go back to high school, we don't have a state championship hanging, that still bothers me. There's no question about it. And we lost in the CIF semifinals to Dominguez, my junior year, and then the finals, but then we qualify for the state tournament, but we were just, we lost to a team in San Diego and just everybody, everybody else was done and I was not done. It's a little like the NCAA tournament where like 60-17s go home unhappy. different types of unhappiness.

It was like that where, you know, like, I'm sure everybody's pissed. They lose their last game except the teams that win. Even when you have these multi-state championship. And there's a bunch of, how many state championships are there in Wisconsin? There's five divisions. And what division were you got? We were division one.

So we were playing the Milwaukee schools, all of it, Madison schools, all of that stuff. So, yeah. Was there anybody good on the team that you lost to? Got by the name of Draylon Burns. He was there. He was on their team. I ended up playing that to Paul. but they were just better.

I mean, our first year, or my junior year when we made it state, we lost to Madison LaFalo. They had both flowers. Michael Flowers turned to be my team. It was there, but they had another flower. I mean, they just heated up our guards. And it was tough to get, a lot of times it was tough to get the ball past half court. I remember me having to bring it up some time.

Like it was just a different. It's like a.U ball. It's a. So, okay. So during this time, now did you play AAU as well? Or you just only play high school? Yeah. Yeah.

What was the squad? So we played, it was called Wisconsin. Now it's Wisconsin Playground Warriors, but it was just called Wisconsin Skills. Like, that's all it is. Fox Valley, and not even Wisconsin, Fox Valley skills. So it was a bunch of kids from the Fox Valley, guy by the name of Richie Davis, who passed away. He ran playground now, or used to run playground. Passed away a couple months ago, shoving the driver. And it was crazy. So he just got a bunch of us together. Local kids, again, I'm going to yell names that you don't even know who they were. I mean, we had Tyrone Deacon, Josh Schneider, a guy by the name of Steve Hosell, Watney was from Rhinel. So we just put together this group of local kids from the area. And we go down to Milwaukee and we beat these teams. We go down to Madison and we beat these teams. We went out to Bob Gibbons and Carolina. That's when I got a lot of my offers because they put us in a pool with a bunch of bigs that were supposed to be highly ranked.

I mean, I was dropping 40 on them, every game. And I don't even remember who the bigs were. I'll be honest. Like, for me, it was just like to. How did you, how did you get good when you're not playing against that level of athleticism on a daily basis? What was the, was it, what was your workouts like? What was your, how did you develop your game? So I played all the time.

But for me, one of the biggest things, and I do it all the time in our camps. I tell our campers now that I'm running those and everything. I was big on skill development. Like this is the thing, and I'm sure we'll get into this. Like, I was 6-11-180, my freshman year of high school in the big 10, or in college, in the big 10. Like, I was 6-11-160 my, like, junior year. Like, so it wasn't like I was, it was bully ball. But I was going to be smarter because I studied the game.

So I knew how to get angles. I knew how to create space. What did you study? Who did you study? So again, I'll watch a lot of Ben Baker, but I would watch a whole bunch of tape of like Larry Bird and just, I would just be watching this crazy film in general. And then any game I'd go to.

Like, so again, names, but like old, I'd be a freshman. I'd be an eighth grader. I'd go watch high school basketball games. And I'd learn from guys. Like, Darren Charles ended up being a football player, but he was really good. Bob Dockley was a football player played at Wisconsin. And it ended up being really good.

He could use his angle. So all this stuff, and you just try to steal as much of it that you can. And then you try to add aspects to your game. But like, here's a great example. There's 10 guys in the gym. They want to play pickup game. I'm the 10th guy. No, man, you guys got to wait.

I got to get my workout. Ah, you're that guy. I'm that guy. I was that guy. But you know what? Guess what? The reason that we were good at my high school year, my time? Because those guys then got their 20 minutes of workout in.

So they knew that before we hooped, like we were going to do our skill stuff. So you start doing, you start going, mic, and they're like, we want to play out. I got to do my mic and so. No, no, no question. Like that, but, but to me, that's what, like, that's why I was good. It wasn't, I'm not enough. I'm not. I mean, listen, listen, we, and as you running your, and I want to get into your camps and all the, all the stuff you're doing.

But as it's, it's always, it's interesting to me. It's like, so I have, I do three days a week. when it's like a practice workout, you know, and you have limited time and gym space. And so you're like, all right, what is the percentage of time I do, I do, you know, breakdown drills? What is the time I do skill development? What is the time I do team stuff? Because then you get into a tournament and if you can't break the press, nothing else matters.

But that's the thing. Like, I think I was ahead of that because in college at Wisconsin, we did individual stuff, but not a lot during the season. And we would fine way, but not nearly like they are now. I do think that's a mistake, though. I do think that, you know, I have a philosophy. And one

of the things that set me back was, you know, my shooting was a mess, but I would work, work, work, work, work, in the office. No, I get, I mean, the numbers don't want. No, no, I'm just plain, but you know exactly. I don't get to work. No, no, for sure. Work, work. And then then you get into the season

and you're so. tired. First of all, you're so tired because you're going usually twice a day. You'll get in, and so I would get up early and shoot. And then like, you know, you get first day of practice, you're there half hour early, stay a half hour later. But then you get in the season, you're just, you're cooked. And I think that coaches, really smart coaches should have a day every week where it's like a U day, we'll call it a pro day, where team stuff, where You're just doing skill development for those players because all the other stuff doesn't matter if you can't, you know, score the basketball. If you can't get to where you need to get to.

And I think that's what's changed. Like I know at Wisconsin, I know Greg does a lot more of that stuff than Bo did when I was there. Now, I think if Bo did it more with like Frank and Sam and those guys as well. So I think that's where it changed a little bit. And I think you've got to be able to adapt. And I think that's what happens. So that's why I think I was ahead of it. The other thing is I was at big.

that could shoot before bigs that could shoot. Yeah. We wanted. Like that's just what it was. Like, but it's also because like, again, I wasn't an,

I wasn't going to jump over anybody and I wasn't going to bully anybody. The biggest I got was 2.30. Like, I mean, at my playing time, my red sugar, I got up to 250 and I couldn't move.

I went to our strength coach, and I went to Bow, and I was like, guys, I know you want me at this weight, but I can't be the player I need to be at, at this.

from $1.80 to $250? It is. In that off season. Yeah. In that red shirt year, they put on that much weight, yep. And I've gone, are you eating? What were you eating? Everything.

Cheese curds. Oh, you name it. Literally, everything. I'd go on the road trips and they were just like, but you eat. Like, that's all we want you to do, like, put on this weight. And that wasn't the answer for me. Like, the answer was just like, let me get back to doing what I do a little bit more. Like, you might want me here because it's the Big Ten.

But that's not who it is. I'm glad Bo and everyone was like, you know, you're right. Like we see what it is. We wanted to get weight on you. We did. We put, you know, 70. We need to get you back down to 50 pounds. And then we can play and be the player we want you to be.

Okay. So why did you choose UW? Why? You grew up a Carolina fan. Yeah. And you were McDonald's All-American and you could have gone anywhere. Yeah. Why did you stay home?

Well, I took five visits. went to Arizona. I went to Kansas. Hold on. Arizona, who was your host? Channing Fry. And then who was the coat? Was Lute still there? Was Lute still? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yep. So that was the thing. That to me was why I didn't go, because I didn't know how much longer loot was going to be around. Okay. But I just, good visit though. Like, dude comes from Wisconsin to. It was great. Like, I went my junior year. It was great. I loved it. It was like, they were worried about distance. I wasn't worried about distance, but I've always thought as like a 17, 18-year-old kid, I kind of knew to read through the BS. Like, I didn't need, like, I was a kid that was like, hey, can we hoop on our visit?

Like, can we play? Because I want to see what everyone's about. Like, let's play. That's kind of, so I always was trying to, you know, get through all the, the, hey, this is what, this, it's a great university. Come here. We've got your journey. I'm good, man. Like, so it's funny because that's why I ended up in Wisconsin, because it wasn't that. Okay. Wait, so. Okay, so Arizona Channing Fry, okay, next visit was it where? I went to Carolina. Okay, who's your host?

Sean May. They were good. They were really, yeah, no, they were really good, but who was the coach? Roy Williams was the coach. No. Oh, Doherty. And I knew,

I knew that wasn't going to last because the players on my visit were just throwing them under the bus. And when that happens on a visit, it you know it's done. I mean, I have one for you. So when I actually, it happened when I was at Notre Dame, when I visited Notre Dame, is my first visit.

And I went to a party and there was a guy named Brooks Boyer there. Brooks was it was Digger's last going guard. And Digger wasn't the coach. She wasn't recruiting. It was Fray McCaffrey, who's now in Iowa was the recruited me. And John McLeod was the coach. and Brooks Boyer crushed, crushed John McLeod. I fucking crushed him.

And me that honest kid at the time, I told Fran about it. And like, I don't think that guy was ever welcome back in the program while McLeod was there. Like, he just fucking crushed him. But a lot of what he said was actually right. It was, you know, I didn't go to Yukon because we called Kevin Ali, he was from out here in L.A. And he was like, look, it's awesome. they play fast. They'll always have dudes,

but he's going to bring in a point guard every year to compete with you. And I was like, you know, no thanks. Like I didn't go to UCLA because they had taken a commitment from a kid behind me, right? So I totally get that. But my best, like,

coach is going to get fired and story was this. So I leave Notre Dame and I was thinking about maybe transferring right away, I visited a couple places. I'm like, nah, I'm going to sit at a junior college for a year. So I played in a couple of junior college events. and Alabama saw me and they recruited me.

And Bob Marlin, who's a head coach, I think he's still a head coach of Lafayette, was he assistant, he was great. And Steve Prome was like, he actually hosted me, he was a manager. Okay. And it was super weird. Dave Hobbs is head coach, great guy.

He was a longtime assistant in Kentucky. But I go and visit there, and it's weird, like, there was another point guard there named Brian Williams, who I was a rival with in high school, and they were going to have to move him to the two. But they, like, kind of kept me away from him. They're smart. They know.

Yeah. So then I get home from the visit. I had a great visit, like Alabama. This is Alabama football. It wasn't good then. And the basketball program was pretty good, but missing something. And I get home and Mark Godfrey calls me. And he's like, how is my school?

And I was like, oh, it was great. And I knew Mark had recruited me at UCLA. And he was at Murray. And he's like, I think that's a great. place for you. And I go, why? He was, well, you know, I went to school there. It's just an amazing place to go to school. And he goes, and I'm going to be the coach there next year. And I think he, and he was, he ended up being the coach there next year. And I think he thought he was like, go there. I don't have to recruit a point guard. It's amazing. And I just thought for myself, like,

but I'm going to play two years of college basketball for three coaches. Like, no, no, not, not. Okay, so you don't, so you don't go to Carolina. All right, what are the other, what are the other business? I go to. I go to. I go to. I go to. I go. I go. I go, to go to Kansas. And it wasn't like I had a host. I didn't have a host of Kansas. They had everybody. Like it wasn't just one guy.

The Roy's there. Who's on the spot at that time? So they've got, oh, goodness gracious. I believe if I'm right, like we didn't play and I didn't get it, like we were with the guys a little bit, but we weren't a whole lot because the timing of when I took the trip was

a little crazy. So I didn't get a lot of the players interaction. I was with the coaches a lot of this trip. But it was there. It would have been, I took the trip in 02. So who was on that roster in 02 now? It was still hierarchy and Collison were still there. Yeah, thank you.

Okay, that's why I saw. And that's why we weren't around them that a lot because they were still doing their thing and they were older. And they, that's exactly what it was. Yep. Yep. So how that played out. So it was great. Like it was a great trip, everything about it.

And I knew those guys weren't going to be around. So it wasn't like they brought them around me a whole lot because they knew they weren't going to be around. So it was one of those where it was like, it's not like you had this great relationship because they knew they were going to be gone. So I ended up getting a whole bunch of kind of time with coaching. And that was the thing for me. Like I knew Matt wasn't going to be at Notre Dame or North Carolina.

And I asked him, I said, all right, coach, like one school you can leave for. What is it? Like, and I just, I said, I've been honest with you. Like 16, 17 years old? Yes, yes. It was at his house. It was at his house. because he always have waffles that's Sunday morning.

So I asked him at his house, his wife is making, and I just said, if there's one school, I said, and all I've asked this whole time is for you to be honest with me. I've been honest with you about everything. And he goes, the one school I'd leave for is Carolina. And I'm like, you're going. You're gone. Like, this is a done deal.

In my head, this was a done deal. And so now, this is the thing with Roy, like, and it's a shame he's done. Because I think the game changing pushed Roy out with all the transfers, with everything else, versus him kind of going out on his terms. I think the game changing and all the darn transfers broke him because it's different. I think the NCAA thing too. I think the NCAA thing too. I think my own perception of it is that was that everybody at the university, a lot of people within the university kind of knew.

Yeah. Right? It's like one of those, hey man, you want an easy A take African-American studies? pass it on, right? And when he got there, like, he quietly wanted to shut it down. People were like, well, why did he quietly want to shut down? It was like, because it went back to Dean Smith. Like, nobody wants to say anything bad about Dean Smith.

Like, it just happened. Like, just, we're not. So I actually think he in many ways did the right thing for the family. Yes. But I think that wore him out. I think his health. But then I think the straw that broke the camel's back is like, North Carolina has always been about, we're just going to go.

And he was an amazing recruiter. like I was always jealous because he recruited Paul Pierce my ear and he didn't recruit me. He took Ryan Robertson instead. And but he would sit at midcourt, which I'm sure he did your game, right? Come to your high school game, he said midcourt right there and he was there to watch one guy. And whoever that one guy was was like he felt great about himself and everybody else were so jealous of that guy, right? So what did he say when you said that to him, what did he say? So he goes, he goes to one school I lead for is Carolina.

And he was honest with me. So it was awesome. So before I talk about the other two recruits, like, I was still a kid that didn't know where I wanted to go. Like, I just, I didn't know. And I remember picking up the phone and having a phone call with him and Roy saying, I'm going to take my Kansas head off and I'm just going to talk with you. And by the time we talked for about three hours, by the time we got done with it, he goes, son, I think the best place for you is to go to Wisconsin. And I was like, what? And this was him just being real, just being a good dude, Doug.

Like, it was him just being a good dude. It was crazy. It was crazy. All right. So what are the other two? So I went to Marquette when Tom Crean was there. Scott Merritt was my host. But they had billboards everywhere. They had my jersey in the raft or the Bradley Center. And I was like, you guys don't know me.

Like, I don't need them. That's not me at all. Like, you are so far off on what I'm about. Like, this just isn't going to work. And the last trip I took was to a sky. and it just was what I was about. Like there was none of the hoopla. There was none of this.

There was not like, I mean, in every school offered like the private jets. Like Carolina offered a private jet to go there. Even Wisconsin, they used an airplane to fly me down there. And that was cool. But like,

they didn't do everything else. They're like, hey, this is great. We'll do this because Carolina did this and we got to beat out Carolina and all this other stuff. But like,

they were just like, this is what we're about. And we're going to work. And we're going to, and that's what I'm about. Like, I don't need all the other stuff. And so I know it sounds very vanilla. Yeah.

Let's just work, you know? I got to tell you about my Marquette. I got to tell you about my Marquette business. Okay. So I transfer and I sit out and Mike Dean is the coach. Okay, yeah, yeah. Now, I love Mike Dean. I know some people, like, he's a crazy person.

He's crazy, yeah. And his favorite word to yell at his own team starts with a C and ends with the sucker. I curse in the pod. I won't say that word. That's a little above. So I'd show up in Wisconsin, in Milwaukee where I was born. My dad was head coach at UWM for like five years in the seventh and early 80s.

And Anthony Piper and Chris Crawford Woody were my hosts. And they live in these dorms, which are right on campus, whatever. And I walk in, and this is what I love about Wisconsin people. like is I walk in and they need to get up and there's like a rectangle of beers on the table. Oh, yeah. A rectangle. Perfect rectangle. And I walk in like, hey, come in.

I was like, how are you guys doing? And they introduced themselves. And I was like, what's with the beer? Like, you want one? Like, yeah. Yeah, I'm in Milwaukee. Like, I have to have a beer. It's like, you know.

It's a birthright. And like, good. We got a long weekend. That's going to be a pyramid by the end of the weekend. Whatever. I was like, oh. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you saw it was.

Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro. And these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of family secrets. And just then, we felt the plain turn in the air. So much so that the bags. So under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle. Each week, we dive head first into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships,

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We drank. Then that night there's a bar on campus we drank at that Dino takes you out, take you out to, and then he leaves, right? The next day we go to a brewer game. because I took a spring visit. Yep. Go to a brewer game. We played quarters at the Brewers game.

I mean, like, it was, and we hooped. Yeah. We got out of Saturday morning, and we just hooped, and then we lifted together, and then, you know, we went over to the Bradley Center, and then we went to the baseball game, and then Sunday morning before that, we hooped again. And then here's where Dean was the greatest was he was like, I went to Oklahoma State. He's like, you still want to work camp, right? you still want to work camp?

Yeah, I worked camp for him. The summer after I signed with Oklahoma State, I work camp, I think the next two summers, I worked camp for him. And at his camp, he had a keg in the locker room and had to be floated by Thursday. Camp rule, keg had to be floated by Thursday. It was, it was the best.

Yep, it was the best. Yep. Okay. Show up at Wisconsin. You're the most decorated kid out. but you're 180 pounds and it's the big 10. What was the decision like to register? Whose decision was it?

How did it come to be? It was together with me and Bo a little bit. I mean, I could see how it was going. And here's the thing, like all of my catches were at the free throw line. Like everything I was doing. And in high school, I played a two, three zone. So I didn't defend. And if you don't guard, you're not going to play.

So I remember having a conversation with Gary Close, our assistant. He was like, he was like, Butchie, are you going to be? better your freshman year here or your senior year. Like is that development year for you going to be crucial? And we sat down. I was like, absolutely it is. Let's do it. I know I want to catch heat. Now what people don't know, and I did catch heat from some, from a couple of people. We'll get in that a little. I'll explain in a second, but go ahead. Perfect. But what people didn't understand at that time is my mom had cancer and my uncle passed away. Yeah, who passed away?

And my uncle passed away, unexpected. Yep. So, like, we had all that going on, and I'm trying to figure out how to, like, because, again, how did I have success in high school? I wasn't more athletic, and I wasn't, like, I wasn't jumping over people, and I wasn't bowling people, right?

Like, it just wasn't the way I did it. Like, so I was IQ, it was skills. It was getting all that stuff, and my catches were so off, and my strength was so off, so I just said, let's do this. Like, and for me, and I, like, part of my first, that summer down there, wasn't a kid that was wild. Well, I went out more than I ever had gone out.

Like, so I was like, you know, I experienced that. I was like, I'm not where I need to be at if I want to be the player that I want to be. Like we talked about Sam Mokie. Like I'm specifically said, I don't want to be Sam. I want to leave here, leaving a mark. And I think we would have done that. Like my junior year, if I don't dislocate my elbow, we're number one in the country. We play Greg Oden and Mike Conant.

Like, I think that team we had was good enough. to get to a Final Four, possibly win a national championship. So I thought we had it where we needed to. I just, be honest, I got hurt a lot in college. And it was because I think just so much of what we tried to do with it. But that's how the redshirt happened. I said, I'm going to be better by getting my body right to, because you can't play at 180 in the Big Ten.

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Well, first, I owe you an apology. No, no, I mean, apology, because at the time I had no idea. I was one of my first years working at ESPN, if you kind of get, you go back to it. And it was interesting. There was two different things. It was one with you and then there was, there was an officiating call, I think against Indiana, where you guys were playing Indiana. And the, the ref was also the athletic director at Northern Ireland.

Okay. And it was a really, it was a, it was a bad call at the end of the game. And my, and Indiana was on the bubble and Northern Iowa was on the bubble. And my point was at the time was like, it doesn't even matter. I'm not accusing the official of cheating. Yeah. What I'm saying is it just looks bad for the league that you have, you know, like if Northern Iowa gets in the tournament, he gets elevated. And if Indiana doesn't, right, there's just a limited number.

number of spots. And I thought I worded it pretty well. And I think the thing with you was, they were, I don't remember how we're, how we got into discuss you. And my point was like, hey, if you was that good, why did he registered his, his freshman year? And, and I think that sometimes the McDonald's All-American label works against guys because and, and my, it wouldn't say bitterness, but my, my logic and reasoning, like, I, I don't know if you're the same year as Kauai, but you're really close. But, like, but, like, I, I don't know. like, Kauai Leonard wasn't a McDonald's All-American. He was the state player of the year in California, and he wasn't because he wasn't on the circuit.

He wasn't as well-known. Some guys are there because of their rankings. Some guys are there because of their high school. Some guys are there because of their NBA draft status more than how good a player they actually were. And I thought we were mis-evaluating you and your recruiting class because of McDonald's All-American status. and I don't think I articulated it well enough, right? And it's, as you do TV now, you know, somebody goes like, give me something in 40 seconds, you know?

Oh, yeah, and they come at you fast, right? Right. And like, look, just be honest, like my style is a lot like yours, where I just say what I think. Yeah. And not realizing at the time that I'm putting a complete undue amount of stress and pressure on you and not having any clue what's going on in your personal life. So first, most importantly, I apologize to you.

because I didn't know. And it wasn't, and I'm one of these guys where it literally has nothing to do with me personally. It's, it's more like, hey, we, it's more, it was more, and I still believe it's more on how we evaluate what a player should be simply because of how decorated he was in high school or how highly ranked he was in high school, where you and I both know, you get to college and you'll play dudes you like, that dude's terrible. And then you'll have another guy, like, I've never heard of this guy in my life. And you did this, though, with the Wisconsin herd where this, it's more professional basketball. Where you're like, I've never heard of this dude. He's unbelievable. Where has he been?

Like, you've played a small school. Well, a great example of that. When I was at Wisconsin, we played against Paul Millsap. Never heard of Paul Millsap. Look at what Paul's done now, right? And so much of it is about, you know, what system you're in, getting a break. You know that. I mean, that's what it is.

And for me, like at 185 and everything I had going on, I wasn't in the mental space to be the player that I needed to be. By the time I left, much different. Like, I mean, by the time I left, first team all big 10, and we won Big 10 championship. That's what was what was ball like? What was really like? Yeah, I'll tell you.

Like, so Bo now I can call and we can chop it up all the time. You weren't walking into Bow's office to have conversations. There was one way of doing it. And that goes back to kind of how I ended up reture. I didn't know how to defend because I was in the middle of a two, three zone, my whole high school time. And you had to play Bowles' way. There was no other way, right? Like you got chewed out, you got, but the thing is, even though I redshirted, I had his respect because I remember we were in a practice.

And Boe always had a guy. Like, I always had a whipping boy. Like, it just was what it was. Always. And that was me, by the way. What? That was me in college. Yeah.

I'm going to run your ass. Run your ass back to California. And they call me Edwards like, I'm going to chew your ass out every day because you can take it. Yep. But the thing is, both, not everybody could take it. That was his whipping boy. That was the difference, right?

And I remember my red shirt year, we're getting towards the end of the year. And I'm starting to play at a level that I'm like, this is what I should be playing like. This is how I should be playing. And one of the starters, I just kept giving them buckets. a bucket, a bucket, and finally I'm hitting the three,

and he just chucks. I mean, he just throws two hands right into my chest, chucks me, he's frustrated. Scout team just whipping him. Who is it? What?

Who's the starter? Dave Maynor, and then now I live right next to him. It's crazy. He was an Appleton guy, right? So I got back up, and this is, Rob Jeter was still on the staff,

and Robbie had that, and now he's the head coach at Western Illinois. But, like, he had that in him. Like, Robbie had that, and he was on the scout team. We were talking a little bit. So I got a,

right back up. And I started swinging that day. And we started swinging each other. And Bo's over there just laughing. And at that point, I knew I had his respect. Because I'll be like you go through a redshirt year, he doesn't really pay much attention to you. Like, hey, you go with the straight guy. Get your way down, get strong. When you can help me, come on, we'll talk type deal. Now, Bo was a little bit more than that. But most of the time when you're out of play, you're out of play. Like it's their job to win games now, not when you're ready. Like they got to win games now. So that's kind of, where it was at. And so that's how it played out. Yeah. When I say like what was, uh, what was Bo like like, like give me exact big games. What was he like? What was it

like? What was it really like to be you playing from Bo Ryan in the biggest NCAA tournament games? I'll say that the only games that our practices were different leading up to it was Marquette and Michigan State. Like we knew. when it was Marquette game. We knew what in a Michigan State game. We knew we were going to run lines before in practice the day before. Like, we knew we were going to get on the line before a big game. Oh, yeah. It's because he was nervous.

So, like, we knew, like, that's just what it was going to be. Like, we knew he was going to say, all right, you guys aren't playing well enough. Get on the line. Like, that was a given every single time we played those guys. But other than that, it was the same, Doug. Like, his preparation was the same. We would get so many possessions in, as long as we were at one point per possession, boom, practice done, get ready to rock and roll. We didn't change defenses a whole lot.

We didn't put in new schemes. We were just better at what we ran and how we did it than most every team we played. And like there's, you know basketball, the more difficult you make it, the harder it is on everybody. Like it was simple and we were really good at it, and that's why we won. So, like, you know, Bo had his courts. Like, I tell this story a lot. You know, my senior year, I finally had enough confidence to talk to him about it and say, hey, what's going? Like, but I always say, coach, why do you always sit in the back of the plane?

Like, what's up? He goes, Brian, have you ever seen a plane go down at the tail first? Like, have you ever seen, I'm like coach. And finally, I come back as a coach. If this plane goes down, we're all done. I don't care if it's tail first, nose first, we're all dead. Like if this plane's going down, we're all done. You're not surviving.

But like that was that PA in them, man. Like that's just that Philly guy out of him. You know, the guy named Randall Dickey was on our staff. James was the head coach at Texas Tech at the time. And essentially, because the year after I left, they had the plane crash. Yeah. And I will never forget, Randall Dickey used it. The same plane that went down.

I used to all he used to, it was the third plane. We flew at three, four planes. Yep. And he said, I was like, man, why he was? I sit in the back. It's like, oh, man, you ever see one of these things back into a mountain? I was like, you know, hey, bro, it hits the mountain. We're gone.

But whatever. We're gone. You do you. You do you. You do you. How hard is it to look back and go, hey, that junior year we could have won the whole thing, if not for the elbow? I'll be 100% real here. Like, I don't look back at the past.

Like, the past is the past. Like, I mean, we had a really good team. If I don't dislocate my elbow, what do we do? Hey, the verdict's still out, in my opinion. I mean, we end up losing to UNLV and Long Kruger and his son who now is at UNLV. And, like, I mean, he went off. I didn't play in the tournament at all. You know, you talk about, like, what moments might be.

Like, that's a moment that possibly leads me to a bigger platform because it's the NCAA tournament. If you play one of the NCAA tournament, boom, the spotlight's on you. everyone's talking about you more draft scouts are doing their jobs i mean let's be you know you've been on that side i've been on that side a lot of these scouts don't necessarily do their job they just look at the board and say oh this guy's here we'll look at this and then we'll start to evaluate a little bit more like you've got to get on the list first and you got to be on all that stuff so that's a little bit different but like we had a really good team we still even when the two teams from wisconsin went back to back final fours they still weren't ranked number one in the country ever

We were the only team to be ranked, number one in the country at Wisconsin. So, yeah, is it one of those things you look at and say what could have been? Absolutely. But I don't, like, there's too many good things ahead of us and ahead of what's going on to sit back and look back upon it and say, what could have been, should have been. Like, for cards we were dealt, man. Okay. Your last game was Steph Curry's last win in the NCAA tournament.

Yeah. Okay. When, like, you're getting ready to, you're getting ready. I mean, Georgetown was top team in the country. They take down Georgetown, right? So you guys got like a week off to prepare for Davidson. What did you honestly think? Because every scatterboard I've ever been in for an NCAA tournament,

like this team is incredible. Every guy is incredible, right? They build them up because they, but it's Davidson. You're watching tape. What do you think? All right, we're good. Like, we're good.

Like, he's not going to do that. Like, he's had a great weekend. But he can't do that again. Like he can't do that again. Like there's no way. We're good. We're going to play Kansas for a chance to go to the final four of your senior year in Detroit where we're going to have a boatload of fans.

And we can beat this Kansas team because this Kansas team. I didn't think was that good. Like I loved the matchup. They had Sasha Khan, but they had Mario. Like, all right. They're all right. But, I mean, they end up, you know, going overtime win. Like, I get all that.

But I still didn't think they were that good. I thought we could compete with them. And I thought we could have beat them. Like, so that's what we're thinking. And then all of a sudden, our point guard, Trayvon Hughes, rolls his ankle against Kansas State. So he comes in, he's practicing all day all week long. And a little bit before game time, it's like, my ankle hurts.

And I'm like, he's like, I can't go. And then at that point it was like, oh, man, like now we're shifting, guys. Our best defender is there. But now when Mike goes, Mike, the Flowers goes out, now we've got to put Jason Bowhannon on Steph. and like J-Bo is a great shooter, but great J-Bowl was never a defender, and now we're in Scramble Mo.

And then Steph starts cooking. And once he started cooking, about that first half, I said, oh, no, like, because you knew once he was done, like, we had just saw it the weekend before. We saw the film, and now we're starting to see it in person. And I was like, man, like,

they had a really good point guard in Richard. Jason Richards, very, very good. Yeah, really good point guard, sod. They had a decent big. But there's no way we should have lost that game. It's just my man got hot. And then I'll say this. He didn't get hot.

That's who he is. Like that's my point. That's what I'm just going to say. Like, like, like. Let's not get hot. That's who he is. No, no, no. He got hot because he didn't do.

He had crazy shots against us. Bro, he's crazy shots against everybody. That's my point is like, we thought he got hot. And then he started really. And then like you look at his career and you're like, yo. Like I'm doing TV. You're still hooping and you're an MVP. Like, hey, I'm overseas in Dubai.

I'm overseas in Japan. Like, more power to, like, you know. This is a real question, okay? Because I did his games that year. And, you know, I'm famous for underestimating what I thought it'd be Jeff Horn second in the league. So I thought. Yeah.

Yeah. Did you do, do you think like, oh, that he's, that's a dude? Like, that's a MVP, two-time MVP, greater shooter in the history of the sport guy. No, I thought he was his dad. Right? Like, stick around because you knew, and I knew at that point, if you made shots in the NBA, you could survive.

Like, if you make shots, you can survive in the NBA. Like, you don't have, but if that's what you do, that is a skill set that the NBA looks at way more than any other level. Like, if you make shots, you can survive. I thought he was going to be his dad. I didn't know what thought he was going to be this. Like, so when you looked at it and you said it, you weren't far. Like nobody thought he was going to be what he was.

But I think it goes back to the way the games changed now, the emphasis on the three. And then he had great players around him that they were able to build it in the situation. Now, you can throw stuff anywhere, but it helps the pieces that they have around. And you got to have all. And he got better. Yes.

Yes, which is crazy. He got better. When was the point? You played all over. right? Yeah. When you did the Bakersfield jam, right? It was, was it just, I just, I got, I got to play in the league.

I got to play a day in the league. Like, what was the, because you played overseas and the money's better overseas. Was that the reason for coming back stateside? So my first two years, I fought for money overseas. So I was in China, had a great deal. Played a game. They had a plane ticket on my bed. Then after a game and said, hey, you're going back here.

We're sending you home. Okay, great. But so I had a whole boat. boatload of money that I didn't get there, went to Greece, was playing well, they didn't pay me. I was sick of not getting paid, Doug. Like, it was that simple. Like, I was fighting so much, and the joy of just playing was gone. And I'm big on that.

Like, my passion and my joy for the love of the game, like, that's why I played. It was never about the money. Like, I was sitting in Greece, and I legit said, I need to go playing the G League or the D League at that point. And I need to just figure out, like, can I make a career of this where I could get paid decent money without having to chase it constantly. And I think that was the best thing for me was not to get paid because I was in Bakersfield and three months later then I got called up to the Nuggets. Like it was like that that was the difference.

Like it clicked for me because I was a big that could shoot but defensively I wasn't that good. Like couldn't move my feet, couldn't do anything. I remember Mark Worcantine. GM of the Nuggets was from Bakersfield so he's catching a game and he just changed. He's like, dude, I want to bring you up because I think you can stretch the floor. I think, you know, big that can play, that can give mellow space. Like, I want to be able to do all that for you.

You got to do something on a defensive end for me. So he's like, even if you just rebound the basketball, that's a skill set. So from that point on, I had 25, 30 straight double doubles where it was just like, all right, that's my skill set set. Perfect. And it just clicked. Didn't you get cut though before or set back down before playing in a game? Like you, they called you up?

You know, so I had a two-year deal. And so I got called up at the end of the year. And then I was in the playoff, on the team for the playoffs. And I had another year deal on that contract. So you go play Summer League, right? Like, that's what it is. You play summer. I rupture my Patel tendon in Summer League.

So I was out 15. No, but didn't you, like when you got called up from the jam to Denver, didn't you get called up and then they put on a 10-day, but they didn't play you before ever played a game? So it was end-a-year. contract. Exactly. So I never played, but that was a two-year deal. So I had an end-a-year contract. Then I played Summer League, and then I had a whole other year contract with them. And before I was ever to get into a game, like, so I didn't play at the end of the year, but I'm like, all right, great,

I'm set up for great, you know, for next year. Let's do Summer League, let's play, let's figure all this stuff out. In that summer league, when I erupt from my Patel tendon, and then that's when they release me. So then at that point, you're fighting it, right? Like, you've got that, you've got that X on your, on your name. injury prone, this and that. So this is the kicker. 15 months back, I'm back, I work my way back. It's the lockout year. I signed a contract with New Orleans. And I'm going to start our preseason game. There's two preseason game. I'm starting. That's the year Chris Paul gets traded. But Chris Paul doesn't get traded because David Stern ex-nays it. So like there's nobody on this Pelicans roster,

on this Hornets roster. Like there's nobody. This is like ideal. This is when Lance Thomas makes a name for himself, right? And he's able to stay. Right. Right. So I'm starting. No, not a problem. I'm good. Like, this is great. Literally, our bags are packed. We're doing one last drill. I'm out hedging a ballstream. Jerome Dyson comes into my knee. Boom. My other knee rupture or tear my Patel tendon, tear my MCL, and it's a rat. Like, yeah, and it's a rat. That would be my best shot to like stick, or at least have. a play you know and do it and so at that point um i was in the g league a little or the d league a little bit longer um because i just wanted to see like i was stubborn at that point and i remember halfway through i said i called my agent i said dude like is this going to happen or not

i said i don't need this fake agent talk because if it's at this point i was 29 was like it's time to cash i hope i said if not i need to make money um so then i went overseas and i played everywhere I played in Dubai. I played in the Philippines. I played in Tokyo. Wherever I was going to get paid, let's go, let's cash out,

let's make these last couple of years great. And those were the best years because me and my wife at that point traveled the world, got paid great money to do it. I want to do another pot where we do the travels. Yeah. Here's,

so we'll do that. I got to run my radio show. So I got two more for you and I got four minutes. Perfect. First one is this. When was the moment to which you were done? I was in Foucaca.

in Japan. And at that point, me and my wife married a long time, I looked at it. I said, what am I doing? Like, where's the end game here? But did you play a game? Yeah, so we won a championship. We won a championship. But for me to be able to play at the level that I expect myself to play at, like I just, I hurt too bad. My knees hurt, my back hurt. Everything was done. I said, what is this? So I won two championships in Japan. I said, that's it. It's done. you now have your own camps basically an academy. Yep.

Like this is, you built a life on basketball. But like how, what is it like though to, you want to teach kids the game, but there are certain kids which you got no shot. Yeah. And then there are other kids to which like,

you have a shot, but you have to list you have to trust me because I've actually lived this life. What's that? experience like for you. Yeah, I'd say the biggest thing is the kids that, you know, aren't going to get that Division I scholarship. My biggest thing to them is, well, what are your, like, and just being real with them, like, what are your goals? If your goals to play high school basketball, let's get you to that level. Like, it's not going to be to play D1.

I'll tell you that right now. And I think the time that you're honest with people and whatever you do, now you set them up to be successful, but you can't give them fake news. You can't give them this stuff and this fell's hope of this is where they're going to be at. And I think that's where we start with it. And then when these kids do get and make the high school team, one, one kid I worked with was not that good. He made the high school team. He was a contributor. That was the highlight of his whole career. Now he's a manager with the Minnesota golfers. Like, I mean, like, that's his thing. So he's still part of the game. But it's because he had a good experience with the game. This is, this is, okay, so we'll set up this part two for next

week and that way we can run them kind of back to back. But here's the, it's interesting. Brad Stevens, I asked him about his son. I think he's Brady. And I said, how's he doing? He's like, he'll play high school basketball. Maybe I play B3. Maybe he's like, but you know what? He's going to grow up loving the game, being around the game.

And if he wants to, he can make a life out of the game, which is, you know. But it's really hard for a kid when they're 12, 13, 14, to have that perspective, you know? It is. It is. So you just got to be honest. That's the biggest thing, man. That's what we try to do with all of our kids. And as long as they love it, you can do it.

Like you've done like I've done. Like it's just, you know, doing VTN and doing everything that we're doing that I'm doing now. Like it's just because you treat the game. George Carl said that to me at a young age. If you treat the game well, the game will be good to you. Don't know if I agree with that. That's for our next pod. Okay.

That's for our next pod. In the meantime, I really appreciate you having me on and know how busy you are. And we'll do part two very, very soon. All right. Sounds good. Thanks. All right, that's part one for Brian Butch. I wanted to get to him playing overseas and what those stories were actually like. I think you'll really enjoy it. By the way, if you like stories like this and our interviews are obviously aren't as

they're not as long running, right? Like the runtime is much shorter. But we do, I think really good interviews on the Doug Gottlieb show daily three to six Eastern, 123 Pacific Fox Sports Radio, Iheart Radio app. In the meantime, stay tuned. Part 2 will drop in like two days. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all ball.

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