The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Guest: NBA Draft Analyst Matt Babcock Discusses LaMelo Early NBA Impressions, Luka Garza, Cade Cunningham, Jalen Suggs Evals

Episode Date: January 8, 2021

In this episode, Doug shares a great behind the scenes story about life on the road in broadcasting, and is joined by hoops analyst, former agent Matt Babcock. They discuss his Arizona walk-on experience, his non-traditional path to becoming an NBA agent, the ugly side of the business that led him to leave it to pursue player evaluation and analyst life. He also breaks down LaMelo Ball's first month of his NBA career, his NBA scouting report on Iowa's Luka Garza, star freshman Cade Cunningham, Jalen Suggs and how COVID has impacted scouting. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast.

From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Remember all those big dreams used to have? And then life made other plans.

With a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van, it's time to bring those dreams back. Start your own business or commit to van life with a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. Now, you could win the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter mode four by four that we have. enter the Dan Patrick show Ultimate Camping Rigs Sweepstakes. To enter, get official rules. Visit Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com. Have to do it by February 2nd for your chance to win. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1-800flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination.

1-800 flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise. Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1800flowers.com for exclusive offers and great values. To order today, visit 1800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. Hey, welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is the all-ball podcast where we have a bunch of different paths that we go down during the hoops season. Most times we talk hoops, but sometimes we talk other sports. As a matter of fact, I have a couple of friends who want to join me like T.J.

Hanzada did. If you missed that one, he's got an amazing life story. It's not, ball does not also always mean basketball. It just means kind of sport. And though we usually focus on basketball and people's basketball stories or basketball analysis, I like to, I like to get everybody's sports story, if you will. Today's guest is Matt Babcott. Now, Matt was a walk-on in Arizona, their lead eight team.

in, was that 05? Right? And they lost that game to Illinois after beating Oklahoma State. Crazy. That's now Allstate Arena. That's the old Rosemont Horizon, which I'm going to share with you

a quick story on that in a second. And then we'll have Matt come on. One of the things I like best about it is the ability to tell stories. So here's a good hoop story for you. All right, I'm working at ESPN. And the guy who hired me, now works for NBC Sports,

saying Dan's tier. Dan is a fabulous guy and an unbelievable team. TV production kind of mind. He was, like, famously, he was Vital's producer when Vital was absolutely at his peak. And, you know, you don't know where Vital's going and to be a producer when that's happening is hard. So he was the coordinating producer at ESPN. And some of my broadcasting friends who are listening to this, you're nodding because you know how Dan works.

So the way in which Dan would operate when I was there, which is like, bro, bro, keep me honest, keep me honest. Come in. Ask for games. Don't be afraid. but I may say no, I don't have one for you, but just knock on my door. Don't, don't be afraid to stop by, bro. So that's what I would do. That's kind of how I cut my teeth in college basketball.

It's like, you know, Barry Sachs is a guy who ran ESPN News. You know, we can put you on here. We can put you there. And Dan Steer was the CP for college basketball. So Dan calls me one day when I'm driving home. He's like, bro, I need a favor. Need a favor. Cincinnati, DePaul.

And it was like a. early February game. I was like, oh, man, Paul's terrible, terrible. No problem. But I'm, everyone's contract is different. And so I think mine at the time was like an all in like, you could basically throw how many of many games. There's no overage.

There's no extra fees, whatever. So somebody says, do the game. You do the game. But, you know, inside I was like, oh, man, that's a shitty game. So, and at the time I was doing, either afternoon or nighttime radio so that means I would have had to take a day off of radio so I in it doesn't

it didn't help me pay wise and in fact it actually hurts me because I my radio contract at the time was based upon the number of days I fulfilled not anything else and so every day I did basketball that was a day I couldn't do radio which meant it was a day like it it had to be something good but whatever like I love calling basketball games

so he's like but I'm a deal with you. You can fly in to do the game day of, which generally not allowed at most networks to fly in day of, especially a place like Chicago or flying out of Hartford where weather can be a factor. So Dave Revson and I were, oh, no, excuse me, Boog Shambi and I were calling the game. And Boog is out of New York and I'm out of the Hartford area. And so we both fly in that morning and they're shoot around at like i don't know one's at 11 and one's at 12 so i take uh i mean it couldn't be any better because you get an hour back like i get all my kids situated they go to

my girls go to preschool whatever and i head to the airport you know it's like a nine o'clock flight or nine 15 flight and you land at like nine 15 it's it's amazing so we fly in and you land at I don't know what it is, you know, 915. And if you've ever been to the Allstate Arena, which is the old Rosemont Horizon, it's literally right off the runway, right? So I didn't rent a car because I'd rent a car. And here's the thing I did. It's a 6 o'clock local start.

The last flight to Hartford was, I swear to God, 829 p.m. Okay, six o'clock, if you know college basketball, the window is two hours. Now, only Wisconsin, Michigan State, big 10 games go less than two hours. But as I was calculating my brain, I was sitting there going like, DePaul's terrible. They're so bad that they're not even going to be fouling late in the game. And I'll end up walking out of the arena at 755. It is five minutes door to door. I can check in for the flight.

I'm not checking a bags. I'm not even, I got a backpack with a laptop, and that's, it, you know? Like, it's like the old, it's the old, you know, Michael Jordan, we went to Phoenix to play game six of the NBA finals. Like, you only pack one suit. I literally wore my suit. So I drop my kids off. I'm taking a flight. I go over there and I'm, and I'm hanging with booge and we're watching DePaul workout. And one of the managers comes over and says, do you guys need a or actually was the producer they had a runner and ESPN

games don't usually have runners CBS games do have runners ESPN pretty stripped down crew but somehow we had a runner and we're like hey my man can we get a ride to the airport and a guy waiting there's no we have no post game interview like this is just a game on and off so we literally both landed go over to the airport and now we did get I think one hotel room

at some like dive hotel right next to the arena. So while we're watching shoot around, they're like, the runner who drove us around all day is like, actually there's a team manager. They have a team van, and he's going to take you to the airport. Cool.

We meet him. It's great. No problem. And I'm going to meet you at that door. I was like, listen, how many people are they expected tonight? He's like, I don't know, man. Maybe four or five thousand.

But, you know, if we're down, big, late, the law of cleared out. Traffic won't be a problem. I was like, well, can we be on the day? the side of the arena, which is the airport side, so we could have the easiest exit. No problem. These are the things, by the way, that broadcasters actually really think about. So this guy's driving us around, and he's kind of driving us crazy.

He was our runner, drives us to lunch. And he, like, he smokes, but not in the car when we're driving, but he clearly smoked a ton. I think he lived in Wisconsin. He was like a college student. We're like, this is disgusting. I just remember boo going, thank God he's not taking us to the airport. So we get to do the game and DePaul's down like, I don't know, 18 at the half. And the thing is rolling and no fouls.

And it's, you know, you get to, usually it's three minutes for every minute on the game clock, right? That's usually how you can think of it. But the first half only usually takes, I don't know, 40 to 45 minutes. And, I mean, it felt like the first half might have taken 30 minutes. So I'm sitting there elbowing Boog. And Boog's flight is, last flight to New York is like 9.30, so he's fine no matter what. So the second half starts, and all of a sudden, the Paul starts hitting three after three, after three, right? And Cincinnati's Mick Cronin's calling timeouts.

And we're like, I'm going to sit in there dying. And he's elbowing me because he knows if I miss that flight, I either got to fly with him to New York and then find a way to cab up to Canton, Connecticut. Or I got to stay the night. And now it's like, oh, God. Stay in that dive hotel, change my flight. You know, just the, you want to sleep in your own bed. So the game ends and the ball is in the air and the game, ball is in the air and DePaul is down three. They miss a three at the buzzer that could have tied it, sent it to overtime.

Of course, I would have missed the flight. Misses it. And you get the, from the producer, no post game hit. You guys are clear. It's like 758. So we start booking it to the door We're supposed to where the van is supposed to be And there's no van there

And there's no manager there Turns out he moved it to the other side of the arena Which and the traffic there was a little bit of traffic Because people did stay Because it was in fact an inside of basketball game Get in the car and I'm like in my mind Dog Cussing this manager who just didn't I just ask you to park at one spot to get you there

Matter of fact I'm looking at the game right now And my recollection was pretty good It's February 8th 2011 Cincinnati DePaul Right Classic Classic Cincinnati DePaul And it was

It was 7168 And DePaul was shitty They were 5 and 17 before the game Excuse me Six and 16 Before the game And Cincinnati was 18 and 15 before the game

Cincinnati up big in the first half Behind Ibrahimah Thomas Started his career at Oklahoma State Right Sean Kilpatrick Who became a pro What a stud player he was Yancey Gates And Larry Davis

and Rashad Bishop. That was a good, like good, rugged Cincinnati team. And Cleveland Melvin, who I think is an L.A. kid. He ended up having a big night. He was their league of score for DePaul. And they made it close. Anyway. So we get done and we race, you know, finally get to find the manager.

It's like 805. And book our way over to O'Hare. roll into O'Hare like 809, get out, start running. Nobody at the security gate made it to the, you know, running through like OJ through the airport, right? Get all the way to the gate and it's like, you know, like 814 or something or maybe 819. And I see the door closed. I don't remember it's like an 829 flight. And if you know, Americans start doing this thing, probably about 2010, we're like, you know, if you're not there 15 minutes before, we close the door.

And I saw the door close. I'm like, oh, man, I missed it. But there's all these people, like, sitting in there. So anyway, the flight was like five minutes before boarding. I end up getting to the flight. So I do have some, that's my greatest Rosemont Horizon, Allstate Arena memory, far better than Matt who's going to join us, who, of course, was sitting on the bench for. Arizona when they had a huge lead against Illinois in the elite eight before the Illini and Bruce Weber end up making that furious comeback winning the game in the

elite eight crazy home crowd then they go and play in St. Louis get all the way the national championship game they played small ball before small ball was cool but too much North Carolina ended up beating him for a national championship that's there's the there's the all state arena Rosemont horizon all imagine an Olympics where The doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next we'll talk about life,

mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey everyone, it's Ryder Strong and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the PodMeets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV,

who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some Survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough.

Did people not like it? Like what was... Yeah. Just because we... Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion in the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay

to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of... Ha, ooh. Ha ha, ooh. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune in to PodMeets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Twirled

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Agency. The ability to know that we're the experts in our own body. On the podcast cultivating her space, Dr. Dom and Terry Lomax create a space where black women can show up fully and be heard. I wholeheartedly think, you know, you hit 30, you shouldn't have to share room with

anybody. Mm-hmm. From navigating friendships and healing to setting boundaries and prioritizing your mental health. These are real, honest conversations. We don't always get to have out loud. Totally unreasonable with different parts of life, right? Like, oh, have all three meals and make sure you're mindful during all of them? Absolutely not.

During one meal, I'm standing. I'm standing and handing my children food. Because healing, empowerment, and resilience aren't just ideas. They're practices. And this Mental Health Awareness Month, there's no better time to pour back into yourself. Listen to cultivating her space on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Time worst arena Only good part of that location is proximity to airport

That's really only it And they have like blue windows and like a blue roof on it It's a I mean it's fine as an arena But I don't know what purpose it serves now I really really don't I have no who How did that thing get cleared

How did that thing get to where you're like yeah Yeah let's build an arena there Right in the middle of some office buildings Some apartment buildings and some high-rises and some hotels. Like that doesn't make any sense at all. That's a weird one to me. All right, let's get to it.

Matt Babcock's from a basketball family. He's got an interesting story, right? From being a junior college player to a college walk-on to an assistant coach, to an agent, and now as a basketball analyst for hire. Here's my conversation with him about a myriad of topics, including what do we take of Lamello ball earlier in the season. Are you ready for the big day? Not your big day, her big day.

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All right, so let's start at the beginning for you. Okay. Your earliest memories of basketball or what? Oh, boy. I'd probably say I was about four or five years old. My dad was the head coach at junior college in Phoenix, Phoenix College, and run around the gym, run around his practices. So first and foremost, you know, as a college coach's son.

Did you have, like, I, wear 40 i always wore 44 um there's other reasons like pistol pete war 44 a little bit uh Hank gathers uh war 44 jerry west were 44 my my mom sides all syracuse people obviously 44 but one of the real reason that we're 44 is my dad had a guy named kirk tajie who was like his favorite player actually it's not true his second favorite player to coach at u w milwaukee um his favorite player uh uh uh to to to coach was actually Dave Weber, Bruce Weber's brother. But I love Kirk Cagia.

I thought he was just the coolest, right? So that's why I wore 44. Did you have, of the guys your dad coach, was there somebody who you were? And maybe nobody knows this guy's name. Like, that was my guy when I was a kid. Yeah, you know, I mean, the name that comes to mind, you know, a couple guys, actually that when my dad was coaching a different junior college, Arizona Western, he had Bougar Smith, you know, was the playground legend from Brooklyn,

and cover Sports Illustrated, sold in the whole, the whole deal. Booger taught me all of his tricks, ball handling tricks and whatnot, and I thought that guy just walked on water. I never wore his number. I believe he wore number 14 for my dad, which was the only time he ever played,

organized basketball. The other guy was Denmark Reed, who's Damon Stodemeyer's cousin, he was Mr. Oregon back in the same school at Arizona Western. They played to get him and Booger played together. He ended up being a standout player in New Mexico State, and he was probably the best shooter I'd ever seen. until I met his cousin, Selim Stademeyer,

when we were teammates at Arizona. Those two guys were very influential on me at a young age. Salim's an interesting one. By the way, I mean, the names are great. Booker obviously a nickname, but Denmark is a great name. Like, these are, it's something about some dudes, they just have, either they go by a nickname that's a great nickname, or they have just a name that just kind of, you know, like,

like, it's really, it's kind of fascinating when you look back that way. What was it like? Okay, so the best team at Arizona you were part of, and the roster was stacked. What was your favorite group? I mean, I was only there for two years. My first year, I transferred from a junior college in Florida and walked on in Arizona for Lud Olson's team.

And 0-4-05, I mean, I thought we were the best team in the country. Our starting lineup was Mustafa Shikers, Liam Stademeyer, Asson Adams, Yvonovanovich. and Chanting Fribe. And we lost, let's see, we lost in the elite eight to Darren Williams in Illinois. We were up by 16 with two and a half minutes left. To come back. You know, I thought we should have won that game.

And I thought we would have beat North Carolina, you know, you know, ultimately if we'd gone to the final four and all that. And so obviously that was a big mistake. You beat Oklahoma State to get there. But it was a great to be part of that team. What was that? You beat Oklahoma State to get there, right? To get the elite eight.

Oh, yeah. Slim hit a huge shot at the end. That was a great game. I mean, that was one of the best games I've ever seen. Yeah, it's, that group is interesting because Mustafa was the most highly tied to point guard in the country coming out of Philadelphia. And it's, this is kind of the interesting transition for me in what you do now. You know, look, you've been an agent, you've been around ball your whole life, and now you evaluate guys. Why didn't he make, why wasn't, I'm always like I have my own and we can discuss it kind of.

and thoughts on it. But like he was, what was the guy's name? Shabazz Muhammad was like the next version of that, where it was so good at the AAU high school level. And not a bad, like, like, Mustafa wasn't a bad college, but it was a good college player.

But to go from the number one point guard in the country to being out of basketball, you know, not being an NBA player, really, is interesting to me. goes through Lutz program, which is like point guard you, right? Like that dude, one, because of the guys who he surrounded people with, two, because he let you play. Three, because of how they coached you. Like, you know, all these other guys made it, but you just mentioned three guys, Hassan and Celine and Mustafa. Let's start with Mustafa. Why do you think he wasn't, he didn't evolve into

what some thought he could be? You know, I mean, he was so hyped up out of high school. I mean, I think if I remember, he was rated higher than Chris Paul and he's number one point guard in the country. And, you know, goes across the country from Philly to, like you said, point guard you with Lut Olson. And I mean, expectations, I think were even higher from that standpoint. And, you know, Mustafa is such a worker. And I think the combination of the amount of pressure he puts on himself and the pressure that came with being the number one point guard in the country and sort of looked at as the next savior, you know, of Arizona and the next big point guard. And there's just a lot of pressure. And I think, I think it got to him a little.

bit. I think he really had a hard time sort of loosening up as a player. I think a lot of his is, I mean, in that Illinois game specifically, he had a lot of turnovers. And I think a lot of it was, he's in his head a lot. I mean, there's a lot of pressure internally, a lot of pressure from the outside on him. And, you know, and I think, you know, kind of putting my agent hat on for a second. There's two ways of looking at it too. I mean, he did have a successful career planner. And Ashley, he had a couple of coffee in the NBA. So, I mean, he didn't live up to his initial expectations, but playing them, you know, played it professionally for a long time. And I think sometimes it's unfair to put such high expectations on these 16, 17-year-old

because we don't know what they're going to be, you know? Yeah, I think it's a great point you made. It's like I had this conversation with I have 11-year-old son, and I've kind of turned him in it, you know, because, you know, he's asked, you know, hey, why didn't you, if you were people walk around, they always say nicer things about you than how you really were as a player. And people say, well, your dad was this great player. He's like, well, how can you even play in the NBA? I was like, well, I couldn't make a shot.

I didn't think I could make a shot. And so, you know, like it really, you know, it, it harmed my career. I was like, but like, I played in Russia. We won a Russian championship. I played in Israel. I played in France. I played in all these minor leagues. And it's like I tell kids and their parents all the time, like outside of playing in the NBA,

anything you could ever dream of doing in basketball, I've done. And so there is this, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, loot people's minds, which you're only successful if somehow you're a starter, you're an NBA all-star. It's like, hey, dude, there's 500,000 high school basketball players. Just to play in college, you're the best 1% in America. And then to play professionally, forget about the NBA, you're like the 1% of that. It's really, really, really hard. And then to play in the NBA, there's 450 jobs, you know, a little bit more this year, obviously, because the roster is deep. But the point is like, it's fucking hard, you know?

And it doesn't make you a failure if you don't become Chris Paul. But it is interesting, you know, like we had this conversation last night. And he was, we got shots up and we have the doctor dish machine. I was like, hey, let's get, let's get, like, let's get 200 more up. He's like, I'm just tired. It's my day off. And I just said, listen, I'm just going to tell you when you're in your 40s. Like, you're going to look back and go like, man, was it really worth, was that video game really worth it, you know?

So I do, I wonder how much it's, because I beat myself up over mental constraints and work ethic, you know, like I knew I worked hard, but you don't realize how hard everybody else is working when you think you've made it and the journey has only begun. Okay, so how did you get into the field of being an age? How did that transition from Arizona to being an agent take place? Yeah, you know, I never planned on being an agent. I mean, I grew up my whole life, you know, my dad had two uncles work in the NBA. My dad was a college coach before he got in the NBA. And, you know, myself and my two cousins, we always plan on being coaches or falling on our dad's footsteps. And, you know, I think the ultimate goal was obviously we all wanted to play in the NBA.

But past that, we all wanted to be, you know, general managers in the NBA. And so from Arizona, my first job was, I drove from Tucson to L.A. I worked for Wasprian Media Group, which was a sports agency and the biggest sports agency in the world at the time. But my job was to assist Dave Yeager, who was a D-League coach at the time, to train all of their pre-draft guys. And they had seven first-round picks that year. They had Lamarcus Alders, but he stayed in Austin train. But we had Brandon Roy, Sheldon Williams, J.J. Reddick, Jordan Farmer, Joel Freeland. So we had this incredible group, and it was Dave Yeager and I worked with the guys every day.

And it was just a summer internship. and that was sort of my, you know, my first look at the agency business. I never even really thought about too much. I met some of them, you know, just kind of hanging around the NBA with my dads and all that, but never gave it too much thought. And from there, I still wanted to be a coach. And I took a job as an assistant coach as a 23-year-old with Virtues Bologna, top team in Italy.

I did that for half a season. Got a little homesick. And I got a job opportunity to work for Excel Sports Management to be a junior agent. And I jumped at the opportunity. I moved back to LA. And I just had, you know, one opportunity after another. And the next thing I knew, I'd been doing it for 10 years and had my own agency. And, you know, after, you know, five or six years, you know, the real negatives in that business started to come to light.

And it became sort of a common theme with conversations I have with my wife and my family. I'm like, hey, you know, I don't know if I want to do this the rest of my life. I don't know if this is the, you know, the place in the world I want to be in. And I really am missing, you know, being quote unquote a true basketball person. And so I kind of threw out some feelers in the NBA. I had some interesting conversations about, you know, joining front offices and different scouting positions and nothing came together. After a couple of years of doing that, I asked my wife, I was like, do you mind if I make a drastic move and, you know, cash out of the agency business as much as I can and kind of bet on myself to kind of recreate myself in basketball. And that's what I did.

And so I started volunteer scouting and, you know, eventually started writing for sports. It's Illustrated and then went on to launch Babcock Coops, but it's been a roller coaster pretty much from Arizona until today. It's been kind of crazy ride for me. Okay. Let's go to that first summer. Okay. First of all, I know Dave. So Dave coached the Dakota Wizards, not just in the CBA.

He coached him in the USBL. And, like, it's really interesting on how I'm very similar to you, obviously, as you know. You know, my dad was a college assistant, college head coach. but then, you know, started the, you know, an AAU program and what he did, and I found fascinating is he knew, like basketball, as you know, and people are listening to this pod know, it's a, it's a family, right? And you know, if you don't know somebody, your coaching tree knows somebody who knows somebody, but he'd been around it so long. He literally knew everybody. And he was like, all lobby team in the final four. And he would place kids in college. And somewhere along the line,

And someone's like, hey, you know, you should probably charge for this service. So I'm like you. Like I always thought like, all right, well, I'm going to play. I want to try to make the NBA or play in a different country every year. And then I want to coach or maybe be a broadcast. And broadcast, the thing just kind of happened, you know. But I do. I totally understand the idea of like, I love basketball.

Like I host a national radio show, but I love basketball more than anything. I love being and just it's it's hard. Like sometimes the more successful you are in a business, it pushes you away from the part of the sport that you actually like. That's why I love coaching kids or coaching teams on overseas trips or whatever. Okay, so let's go to that first summer. Okay, so you mentioned all these guys and it's interesting. Obviously, Brandon Roy, injuries aside, became a tremendous NBA player.

It's crazy that JJ Reddick is still playing, right? like crazy because early on in his career people go like wow he was really overdrafted like going that high and yet you look at the longevity and how the game has evolved some and then you look at Sheldon Williams and he was out of the league rather quickly and some of that is the evolution of the league some of that is his lack of evolution as a player if you can remember back to that summer and then you got Jordan Farmer who I loved as a player played in the league, last in the league, but didn't really stick as far. And he was a McDonald's All-American starting point guard at UCLA, very good point guy.

If you can remember back to those workouts, did you, could you, and you're 23 years old, did you think at the time those guys' careers would play out as they did? You know, Brandon Roy for sure. I mean, it was so apparent in those workouts. This guy's special. him. He had legitimate size, and he had so much more burst than you realize I watched him on TV or whatnot. I mean, I had to do sort of like a bunch of dummy defense on him, and he would just shake me out of my shoes, left and right. He was so strong and he was good with the ball. I mean, obviously, you know, his knees didn't hold up, his body didn't hold up.

And that's why his career was shorter, but I mean, what a great player. And JJ, I mean, just, you know, shooting translates, and he's a really smart player. He was then. He is now in a worker. I think one thing that was interesting with JJ. and he and I became really close during that time. He told me he didn't do anything in the weight room at Duke. And so I think when he got to the NBA, he really applied himself of getting his body together. And I think that's one big part of what's helped him stay in the league for so long.

I mean, obviously shooting and understanding the game and sort of being a student of the game is the most important. But he's also taken care of his body. He's got so much stronger. I mean, I think at that point, he's pretty physically weak. And then what you said about Sheldon, you know, I just don't think he translated as well. He was sort of like a throwback big.

I mean, it's like, you know, six, eight, six nine. You know, 19, 1970, in the 1970s, Sheldon Williams is still playing the NBA. Yeah, right. Collecting it, still collecting a check, starting fights off the bench, you know. But you got to be able to move. It wasn't, if you were going to be a low post score, you got to be able to be a bucket every time.

And then where do you stick a guy defensively? Right. And I, and I think that's a, it's a great, it's an interesting part about, you know, your evaluations now, which is. is whether it's high school evaluators or fans, kids themselves, like, we just, we look at box scores or what a guy does with the ball. But in the NBA, like, okay, can he guard anybody? And then the next part, can he guard everybody? Right.

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Can you guard anybody and then can you guard everybody? Right. And then offensively now, can you shoot? shoot and then obviously can you do all the other things that are that are involved and Sheldon you know couldn't shoot and didn't really guard his guy let alone couldn't guard anybody else I'm not trying to be hypercritical there's lots of guys like that right he didn't translate as well you're absolutely right so um okay so real quick on the agent business and this has been my this is I've always loved this part which is when you know you get in you got to get kids

and sometimes, you know, early do you have to over promise? And then you end up under delivering like the second round is always kids get drafted the second round and the agent gets fired, right? Which is like, look, you know, I told you, you know, anywhere between 20 and 40, you get drafted, you know, 45 and I get, I get fired. And the second agent comes in, swoops in and, you know, where you were drafted appropriately. And he because is that, is that what chased you out of the business? What was it there was a number of things.

Yeah, recruiting, I mean, the whole landscape of the business. I mean, obviously a lot of it's come to light in the last few years, FBI investigation, the scheme and all that stuff. And, you know, I mean, growing up in a basketball family and not even just a basketball family, but like a family that takes pride in being ethical, I felt like a lot of pressure of, you know, doing things the right way. And I learned pretty quickly, I was at a major disadvantage by doing things by the book. And that war on me over time.

I mean, I worked for a lot of the big companies early on in my career and gradually went to more boutique situations by design just because I felt fit my style. I feel like you could have a better opportunity of not getting your hands as dirty and having some success. But after 10 years, I felt I was at a point where I understood the business really well. I felt like I was very effective as an agent. As far as when I representing players, I was getting smoked in recruiting, though. I just, you know, my client list wasn't growing at the same rate that I felt like I was improving as an agent. And that's a hard pill to swallow when you're not getting as much success as you think you should be getting. And I just miss being directly involved in basketball.

Even though I was talking basketball with my players and recruiting basketball players, you know, it's different than evaluating players and talking about it or coaching guys. So it was a combination of all those things. But all the negative aspects that we're all aware of now about the agency business, those are probably the main things that drove me out. His story of the rose is a story of love. from farms to our florists and right into the arms of sweetheart

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Okay, but there are success stories, right? Who's the one guy who you had? Your greatest success story as an agent is who? Hmm. Well, I mean, I think it wouldn't necessarily be the big names. I mean, the bigger name you represent, the easier the job is, you know? I mean, everybody, you know, talks about these super agents that represent these top 10 picks. It's the easiest job in the world.

All you got to do is answer your phone and say yes, you know. some of the guys that I you know when I first went on completely on my own I signed two players that won undrafted that weren't big names I signed Olu Ashaloo from Oregon and Clint Chapman from Texas and I you know I thought Olu had a chance to play in the NBA he went on drafted but both those guys you know really bet on me I was I think I was 26 years old at time I'd started a basketball division for a hockey agency I was really I had some you know finances behind me as far as line we travel and all that, but started the basketball division without any clients. I had left a group where we represented 10 NBA players.

Those guys bet on me as a young guy and they're still playing. I think Clinton's haven't just wrapped it up. They had great careers overseas and they really followed my plan and stuck with me the whole time I was as an agent. Those are my best feel good stories just because we went through it all together and really had success, you know, considering where they had come from. Yeah, it's interesting. The other part is now, and I know the overseas game is changing and a lot of it's a lot better.

And now obviously everybody has a cell phone. But I mean, I can't imagine like when you're 23, your Vitra Spalonia, right? You have no cell phone. You're going over there. Coach is speaking a different language. You know, players are, you're younger than all the players except for maybe the, you know, a couple of the juniors or whatever. Like I've told this story. I've told a bunch of different, you know, stories in this pod.

My favorite one still is when I flew to Russia, I landed in Moscow, and I had no cell phone. A guy had a sign that was written in Russian and had a basketball on it. And I was got in his car. I remember I was in his car and I'm like fading in and out of the consciousness and looking up and thinking, you know, if he decided to like rob me and like leave me for dead, nobody's going to know for a month. I was going to know, but like, what happened to God leave? I haven't heard from him in a while. I heard he went to go play overseas somewhere.

But it is, it is, how did you manage, how hard was that to manage your players overseas, you're young, not crazy experience, they're calling you or emailing you on hot mail back in the day. I mean, you're just out of the hot mail era. How did you handle all of that? You know, it was hard. I mean, you know, once I got to that point where I was, I was representing a lot of players on my own, my model was I needed to sign a lot of players because I wanted sort of low overhead guys that I can get relatively cheap and play.

them in good spots overseas and build them up and just kind of stack my chips rather than how a lot of the big agencies were as far as signed big names and make a bunch of money on a less amount of players. So I was having to manage a lot. And when you have that many irons in the fire, there's going to be some stuff that blows up in your face. I mean, you know, I said, you know, I went to coach in Italy as a 23 year old and I got homesick, you know, and I had been, I'd probably been a little bit more well travel at that point than a lot of these kids that were going over as rookies. And, you know, a lot of guys just weren't built for that, that world of being far from home

and dealing with the language barriers and the cultural differences and all that. And so, in a lot of times when the kid's unhappy, the agent gets blamed, whether it's the agent's fault or not. And so, you know, it's funny. A lot of parents and players now still lean on me to help them, you know, select agents or deal with agents and whatnot. And, you know, it's a crazy business because it's just to manage the expectations. it's sometimes impossible, you know, because it's just, it's such an unprecedented thing for these parents,

these players to understand. So you tell them all the things they need to know or you think they need to know, you know, but sometimes it's just a shock for when they get over. How hard was it for you to help a guy make a decision where, like, look, I mean, because my first club, my, was my second really, but, you know, I was with Herbredoy and Interperformances, and they were huge. And they put together a club team in 2000 because there was some changing rules. And I ended up not being able to play for them because I didn't get my Israeli passport. So then my first club was actually, you're all great in Perm Russia. We won the Russian championship.

And that was a great experience. But in hindsight, that should have been like my third year, right? Like my first year should have been Germany, you know, with a mid-level team where I could have the ball and just go, play, you know, and maybe not make as much money, not worry about the bonuses and the championships. And it's, it's, to me, like, again, like I,

and I, I, I'm sure you're, you're nod in your head because you'd get it. Like, you're trying to convince, not just the player, hey, take a little less money, because in the end, in five years, you can be playing in EuroLeague, because you need to learn the European game. You need to learn to live overseas.

You need to learn to play with foreign players and playing against men. And you need to kind of, you know, put up numbers, quite frankly, right? And those numbers aren't salary. But we all come out thinking like, I got to make some money now. Like I got to make some money. How hard? What's that like to manage from the agent's side? No, extremely hard. And you're absolutely right. I mean, one thing I always preach was this first year, you know, you know, it's not a deal where you don't look at the money. You need to always look at the money in any kind of business deals. But it really needs, the priority needs to be. We use this as a stepping stone. One just kind of gets you, kind of gets you warmed up the whole international basketball, but also like, you know, build up

your market properly. You know, like you said, I mean, going to Russia as a young guy, that's that's a different animal. I mean, if we're talking about Europe, there's Europe and then there's Russia. I mean, the lifestyle is harder. You know, I mean, I would be hesitant to send a young guy that's not ready, ready for the European, the whole deal right off the bed. I mean, you know, a lot of times we'll look at, we would look at France, Germany and Belgium. I feel like the transition would be a little easier for some of the younger guys rather than going to Eastern Europe or places like that where it's you know the cultural differences are pretty dramatic but yeah it's it's a you know it felt like a never-ending battle each year when he signed new rookies and by the time I got out my last year as an agent the the G league it just got going with two-way contracts and affiliate player deals which was a whole other struggle of trying to convince guys not to chase the NBA and start their career overseas and it's funny I actually had had jquan lewis from

PCU that year. And he, you know, he was a borderline NBA. He went on drafted. We had, we had, like, deals for him in the Euro League, and he turned it down to take an affiliate player deal in the G-League, which I told him not to. But I understood he needed to scratch that itch as far as chasing, chasing his dreams. Goes to the G-League, doesn't make much money for a year, and then it ends up in Europe, the second year for deals that weren't nearly as good as we got the rookie year.

And so that's just kind of an example of, like, it's all kind of screwy, and it's really hard to tell these players and parents, you know, the right decision because they're going through it for the first time. And, you know, even if they trust you, it's hard to, it's hard to listen to an agent about big life decisions like that, just, you know, kind of blindly. Yeah. I mean, it's a great point. Like, had Jayquan gone to the EuroLeague and then come back, he would have been better because he would have shot the ball so well and understood the spacing and the nuances of it. And, well, you know, it's funny. I started to cut you off as, you know, So I wrote that contract from scratch.

And, you know, who ended up taking that job was the kid from Gonzaga, Nigel, what's is the name, Nigel. Nigel. Yeah, so he took that job. And then the following year, he played in the NBA for the jazz, you know. And so it was just kind of like, you know, it's sort of like one of those deals where, like, hey, I told you so. You know, it should take that job.

Yeah, no, it's a hard. Okay, so Babcock Coots, you launch it and you do an unbelievable. job in terms of player evals. What was your eval on Lamello coming into the year? Yes, I mean, I've followed Lamello since he's been in high school, just like everybody else has, really. And, you know, he's sort of like a mixed bag with him. I mean, I love the size. It's just natural playmaking ability. I mean, the big concerns were, I mean, in Australia especially, like his shot selection, his lack of effort on defense and just sort of his whole stick of, you know, being known as somewhat entitled. Those were the big.

holdups. And, you know, so far in Charlotte, I mean, he's been great. And from what I understand, you know, for talking to some coaches in the league that he's playing hard, he's been very coachable. I hope it lasts because, I mean, he's got a ton of talent. I mean, he's got star potential. And if he's able to kind of get away from some of those, you know, concerns and negatives, I mean, he could be a big time player. Yeah, I think, you know, I talk to the Warriors guys. And I feel, I feel bad because, here's my take on the Warriors. what not enough people in my part of business are able to conceptualize this. Look, Steph is great, okay, but he's very good with the ball in his hands,

but he's probably better without the ball in his hands. And what they built, the perfect team that they built was they had all these, they had all these multi, it's not just multi position guys because that's like an easy one. They had so many point, whatever, you know, like Kevin Durant's a point forward. Draymond Green's a point forward, point center really for them. Andre Godal is just that he played the five for them, but he can handle the ball. And because he wasn't a great shooter, later in his career, he became a very good passer. Sean Livingston was the number one point guard in the country, right?

Like you look, and even when they had Andrew Bogot, like Andrew Bogus is a great passer. Not just a great screener, but a great passer. So it gave him the ability to, if he didn't have the basketball, just go and move. and we'll find you. And so the new construction of that team, they had, without, except with Exemption Draymond,

none of those guys, like I'm not as down on Andrew Wiggins as the rest of the world is, but Andrew Wiggins is a wing. He is not, there is no point in what he does. And the same goes for, I mean, so they draft Wiseman,

who I think has a lot of talent and potential. But I look back and I think of how they like to play it. And I understood like the dad, I think scared him. I think the persona, scared him. The lack of playing hard and playing tough scared him. And I'm sure Steve Kerr was just like, nah, not worth it. But considering, like, dude, kid can really see it, can really pass. And if he buys in sizewise, a multi-positional defender, like, I kind of think they missed

even if just because, not how good he could be, but what it can do for Steph. And that's, And it's very early. I totally understand. And he's played professional basketball. Weissman played three games in college. There's a total curve there. I get it. But that's kind of like a month in.

That's my hindsight. Yeah, I mean, I love Wiseman. I mean, so it's sort of one of these things where it's just, I think he could be a high profile guy too. I mean, when it's all sudden done, I mean, he's so big and fluid. And I mean, he's already producing, you know, for a big guy at his age is pretty impressive. With Lamello, I mean, I think the jury's still out. I mean, he's definitely shown that he's got start potential.

I mean, we all thought that. I mean, his playmaking ability, is passing ability. That was already there. From the outside looking on in, I don't think they're starting him on purpose. They're putting him on a leash to keep him in check. I mean, what are things going to be like when he gets comfortable? Is he still going to defend and play hard and be coachable then? That's where I think the concern, you know, still, at least for me, it's still there.

Like, we're not, we're not, you know, Charles's not totally safe here with this kid. They've got to keep this in the right direction. and keep him on point. And hopefully they're able to do it because I'd love to see him maximizes potential. And look, if we're if we're being honest, one league, it ain't real. There's some teams that haven't played, hadn't played since March. And there's some teams that just got done playing like last week, right? And so we have this disparity in it.

And what not enough of us admit, when you're coming out the bench, you're playing against bench players, right? You're not playing against stars. And I think being in Charlotte is a lot is a good thing, right? you're away from the bright lights in the big city. And look, I'm interested to see how he handles like you are, the fame and the attention because they only show the highlights on SportsCenter, right? They don't show the defense possessions where he gives up or the missed finishes. What about Zion?

Now we've seen him in a year and a half. obviously there's a jaw dropping jaw dropping amount of potential there but I'm wondering where you are on Zion on if he's going to achieve that because of the game things that hold him back the shooting the you know his body

and the injuries if you were to give your honest evaluation which that's what Babcock who does on Zion Williamson, at this point in time, what would it be? You know, I've always loved Zion. I mean, I loved him at Duke. I mean, I had him as the clear cut number one. I mean, pretty much started early in the season and never wavered.

I think the biggest concern for me, it's not as much the outside shooting. Obviously, if he's able to kind of develop there, that's a good thing. But even if he doesn't, I still think he's going to be an extremely effective player. The biggest concerns are his body and keeping his body healthy. I mean, you know, he's obviously got the huge body type. I mean, keeping that weight down and, you know, staying fluid as an athlete and staying healthy and staying on the floor. I think if he's able to do that, I mean, I think he's going to be one of the better players in the league probably for a long time. I think college basketball is changing dramatically.

And outside of this pod, don't know how many people have admitted it. Like, because you're losing a couple of the top kids a year now to the G-League select and that will continue. Now Kentucky and Duke are fighting over maybe a little bit second tier. I'm not trying to diminish those kids, right? And then when you're going to always lose a Cade Cunningham who's at Oklahoma State, you lose now a sudden, whereas you used to be able to compete with older teams, if you had the top five kids in the country, when you have 15 to 35, you got, it's very hard, very hard,

because now they're really young and they're just, they're not, they're not Anthony Davis, they're not Eric Bledsoe, they're not John Wall, they're not DeMarcus cousins. It's, it's different.

Is that a fair assumption, is that a fair assessment that the, yeah, I agree. I think it's, I think, you know, grassroots,

college, these alternate options, I think that's just going to get, you know, become a bigger and bigger, you know, focal point as far as guys, you know,

transitions to the NBA and all that. And, you know, I think a lot of, of these one and done type players are going to keep doing these alternate options. I think there's going to be even more of them. And so what we're going to look at is college basketball is probably going to be more of a hotbed to go get good solid players that have been groomed by the Jay Wrights and the Tony Bennett's and the Izzo's, you know, guys that are probably juniors and seniors that are coming in

that know how to play that you can plug and play as role players. Because I do think these guys that are marketable 17, 18-year-olds, they're probably going to go get some money legally. Luca Garza. What is he in the NBA? You know, he's such a tough one because, I mean, he's such a stud in college. I mean, he's just, he's been producing on such a high level. I just don't know if he translates that well. I mean, we've got him at 60 right now in our big board, which I'm sure a lot of college basketball

fans would go up in arms about. He's just, you know, his foot speed. It's just a big problem. I mean, the way the NBA's play right now, everything is so spread out. There's so many high pick and roles. I just don't know if he can keep up. but at the same time, he's one of those guys he don't want to bet against. I mean, he's such a tough kid and just he's just a winner.

He's a challenge he wanted to evaluate. I told his dad, I was like, can you tell Luca to stop wearing black shoes? It's actually smart. Stop wearing black sneakers. And he's like, why? I go, like, look, your son has a reputation of not having great feet. He's a great offensive player, not having great feet. When you wear black shoes, it makes your feet look even slower.

Like, please tell him to stop wearing. But, but yeah, it's a hard one because he can, and it's not like you can't shoot. He's made himself into a very good three-point shooter, but it's what about the other end of the floor? You know, the scoring in the post isn't as valuable. And, and, you know, can you be as efficient offensively against better players in a short period of time where you're not getting 15, 20 shots? Like that's the real challenge there. It's not just can you score against better players from further out. It's can you do it in a, you know, now you've got to come off the bench where you've been

a starter, you know, and gotten 25 shots. If you miss your first five, you're getting five more. That ain't the way it works in the NBA. You miss your first five. Go sit. We'll talk to you in an hour and a half. Maybe we maybe need you again. So it's a hard one.

What about Kate Cunningham early in his career? First, what's your e-vow? And then two, do you have a comp that you like? Yeah, I mean, I've watched Cade, you know, I live in Denver. So, I mean, I'm able to hit, you know, say, basketball events, you know, really easily. And so I've watched him all those, you know, different mini-camps and stuff like that. And he's a stud. I mean, he's so mature, you know, for his age as a player.

His composure is great. I think, you know, it really makes good reads and decision-making. And he's got a great size and versatility, you know, sort of the comps for him. Kind of reminds the guy we talked about a little earlier, he sort of reminds me a mix between like a Brandon Roy and like a Luca Donchich. You know, he's, he's a big on-ball guy. I think he could, you know, he's sort of categorized right now as a point guard. I think you can use them in so many different ways, especially if he's able to continue to develop his outside shooting. You know, and it's, we've got him as the number one guy right now. Just, you know, I think he's,

you know, I don't know if he's going to ultimately be the best player in this draft, but I do think he's a safe pick of like, this guy's going to be at least a pretty good, good player. who's the one player who if somebody looks at your board they're most surprised by but you feel you know in that top five 10, 10, 15 variety. Well, you know, I mean, we just did our first big board last week and we did it strategically this late because I mean we needed some time to catch up. I mean, you know, a big part of everybody asking like how's the pandemic affected your scouting. And the biggest thing that it's affected is we missed all of April of doing. I mean, I was all set to go to McDonald's All-American game, Hoop Summit, Florida Brand Classic, Iverson classic and that's all to see the one in Dunn before they step on campus. And so we missed

all that. Luckily, I do a lot of high school stuff. So I've seen all these kids. But we're having to play a little bit of catch up. The one guy that I've kind of gotten the most heat on that I've had, so I think I'm like 18 or 19 is, is Drew Timmy from Gonzaga. And I think one of the big arguments is even though I'm in my mid-30s, I come from a background similar to you where I've been trained as a scout by guys that have been working in the base and it's like the same. 70s, right? So I'm a little bit more old school traditional. And I'm not as quick to say a big guys are a dying breed. And Timmy, to me, that guy just, he's just got such a knack to put it in the hole. I don't care if he needs to be a low post score, if he's getting his action and flow

the game. I think the guy is going to be a bucket the next level. And that's one guy that I think people are looking at and saying, hey, this is a slow white guy. Like, how does this guy fit? I think he's good enough to translate to the NBA. Yeah, I think he's also an easy team. mate because he's not he's not a pig and playing with with with jalen suggs is jason scyid who is who is he to you yeah i mean the guys that they come to mind for me with him is uh jason kid darren williams uh he he was another guy i've watched a lot of usa basketball events and i didn't see the point guard play at those events as much and so i wasn't quite as high on him uh but man right at the gate this year he he uh he really negated those issues i mean that kid is about as true a point guard as a

And I mean, I think he's going to give Kay to run for the money, you know, possibly be the top point girl in the draft. I agree. If somebody wants to become to get all your stuff, how do they do it? Babcarcoops.com. I mean, that's our main, main spots. You know, we're doing a ton of draft coverage, a lot of writing. And we're actually starting to scout some games. I mean, I'm going to Oregon and Colorado today.

I'm doing a high school tournament this weekend, Arizona State USC Saturday, Boise State, Wyoming, Monday. And I got guys all over the country. So we're getting after it. Hey, man. I appreciate your time. I think you do a great job. And your perspective, having been a player,

having been in a basketball family, having been an agent, I think it's unique. And then the ability to bet on yourself and then win is awesome, awesome. Anytime you want to come on, you are welcome here. And I really appreciate your time. I appreciate the kind of words and this is one catching up.

Let's keep in touch. For sure. Thanks, Matt. All right. My thanks to Matt. That was great stuff. Really, really. You go to his website.

You want to check out his analysis and we had a good time, a conversation, if you will. It is hard to watch the NBA and make definitive statements about each one of these players and each one of these teams. Even college basketball, right? Like you see, I'm watching Wisconsin tonight and they beat Louisville by like 50. but Louisville didn't have half their team and had to play their young kids. And now that's Louisville's only lost in the year. It's hard to tell like some of these teams in the middle. Do I think the Big Ten is outstanding?

Absolutely. I'm not an idiot. But I also think some of the other conferences didn't have as many returners. And so early in the year with less practice, less preseason games, less of these tournaments, you're going to see teams with more returners, older players play better. And I do think that water does find its level once we get to February and March. But it'll be interesting to see how much some of those limited preseason games get held against it. And once again, you heard my philosophy with Matt agrees with, or maybe in my

hypotheses for why I don't think Duke or Kentucky is at the level that they've been and maybe won't be at the level that they've been if they continue to recruit those one-and-done type of guys or the top level that want to leave early because the real guys that are that are one-and-doneers with a couple rare exceptions are probably going to that G-League selecting. All right. That's it for all ball. I'm Doug Gottlieb.

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