The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Joe Lunardi on the Birth of Bracketology, 2021 Field

Episode Date: March 19, 2021

In this episode, Doug is joined by famed Bracketologist Joe Lunardi to discuss his new book on the NCAA Tourney, his path from publishing an obscure print tournament guide to becoming the preeminent TV bracket analyst in the country, and the 2021 tourney field. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Your path is really, really interesting. First, like, take me into why you wrote a book. Well, it's ironic, Doug, because as you... you know, most people who write books, you know, are actually able to read books. But that's never been necessarily a long suit. But hey, I've been approached before. And I never really kind of bought into the idea in part because, you know, I had a real job then. So that when the season ended, you know, I kind of had to go back and do it.

And I didn't really have time to devote to it. And, you know, to be really candid, and I don't think anyone would ever accuse me of, you know, having a lot of, you know, false humility. But, like, I never really thought that anybody would buy a book. You know, like, like, I wouldn't read a book about me. Like, why should somebody buy it? But I, I disagree. You know, here's the thing, which it's interesting. You know, it used to really bother me.

when I was at ESPN, when people would take what I felt like were personal shots at you. And it was because you had discovered, and that's what I want to get, I want to get to the process of how you got there, you had discovered this kind of niche in cottage industry, right? And you were like the guy. And you carried very little, if any, bias into how you did what you did. And when I say very little, it's it's because anything that, you know, like, I don't assume bias, but I do understand that location. Oh, we're all human. Correct. We're all.

That's my point. Like, you just, you just found a, you found a lane and you took it. And how anybody could have any sort of problem with that to me was just like, what are we, what are we doing here? So I think it is fascinating because that's what this podcast is. all about it's it's about basketball but everybody's path and everybody's joy you know everybody's journey and you know uh my dad was arman katian wrote a book called rob recruits read that's it's a tremendous book and there's no what we said in the beginning of the interview like i i have read some books including i know i know that's the fake self-deprecating

bullshit that i don't have time for but anyway because i know you're actually a brilliant dude So, but Armicottian wrote, and it still bothers me, but it's actually very accurate. So sometimes the truth does hurt. He wrote about my dad. My dad was in the book. And when I was in sixth grade, I got to join a team and play for a national championship. And we won it. And I don't think it was very close.

And the way it worked was you got to take, we lost in Southern California. championships and the winning team got to take two players from the team they beat to go travel with them to the nationals. So they took me and they took a guy named Lorenzo Liloa. And Lorenzo at the time was, you know, he's a Samoan kid. He was already physically developed. He's like 60, whatever. Anyway, so his like recruitment as a sixth grader was part of Armin's book, right? So he wrote about my dad that basketball was a game that my dad loved that didn't love it back. And I thought, and I thought it was, it was accurate in that it didn't necessarily, you know, he didn't have financial riches from it.

But it fulfilled my dad. Like, you know, he had a, he had an MBA from Columbia. And he could have taken over his dad's car dealership, but he didn't want to. He wanted to be a basketball coach, right? That fulfilled him. It just didn't fulfill him financially. And I would say ultimately, you know, in the wins and loss column when he was a Division I coach, it wasn't successful. But the point is that like the sport doesn't always love you back.

It just does. That's just not the way it works. Right. But that shouldn't stop you from, shouldn't stop you from trying to love it in return. And basketball is a game that you love intensely, intensely. And you found a way to. make it love you back on some some order. And that's, anyway, that's, that's where that quote kind of sticks out with me.

Okay, so you grew up where? I grew up in Philly and, you know, went to college in Philly and, you know, looking back and like, we're all smarter now than we were five years ago and 10 years ago and 20 years ago. And like, I didn't know it at the time. I wasn't smart enough to see it at the time. But because of the where, I was like majoring in college basketball because of the big five. Villanova Temple, St. Joe, LaSalle, Penn, all playing in one building. Like, imagine that.

Like if all the D1 schools in whatever city you're in all played in the same place like five nights a week and brought in all the teams from all the leagues that they played in. And you're this little student reporter and you got a press pass. Oh my God, there's Patrick Ewing playing against Villanova and there's, you know, Digger bringing Notre Dame and Play LaSalle and Jimmy Linem and Paul Wesse. I mean, you name it. Like, like, I didn't know it then, but, and obviously, it wasn't ever going to play at any level or even coach. I mean, I couldn't draw up an in-bounce play. But what I could do was interact with the media and print media was king at that point in time, the late 70s, early 80s. And I looked around and I said, hey, maybe I could be one of those guys.

And lo and behold, you know, like we didn't know about ESPNN. And it was barely alive. We didn't know about the internet because it hadn't happened yet, much less, you know, digital content and repurposing it. platforms and, you know, all this stuff that we do now, right? And we take for granted. But it was a training ground. It was an incubator of sorts. And, you know, was I able to take advantage of the introductions that were made on my behalf by people who took me under their wing? Absolutely. But like, doesn't that happen in any walk of life with successful people? I'm not ashamed of that. I'm proud of that.

And, you know, it's really cool. And then a little later on getting to work with literally hundreds of really talented, smart sports people. You're one of them. I miss those days. I miss some of our battles on the air because you were so damn informed that you were not an easy mark like some other people. But, you know, it has been a Walter Middy-like, Forrest Gump-like, even experience. And to tell that story in the book,

which I think is where we started this part of the conversation, is like the co-author, really good guy, Dave Smale out of Kansas City, he had to convince me that it wasn't going to be, Like, you know, Joel and Artie was born at a very young age, very close to his mother, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it would be about this thing that we all love, this phenomena of which Brackatology, quite literally, has become a pretty big part. And there was no plan for that. I wasn't, this is not self-deprecating. Like, I don't make business plans.

Like, I don't know how to do that. I mean, you're right. Like I just kind of. Okay. So how did you go from your cover, you're covering these games in Philadelphia? Yep. To Bracketotology. Like when was the first time that you, how did it, how did the light bulb go off?

And was you or somebody else, what happened? There was a bridge that, that was crossed. And it was like a lot of these things turned out to be, you know, accidental and then unintended consequence. right i i got affiliated with the blue ribbon college basketball yearbook and for anybody who doesn't know about it you know back again in the day before the internet and and and and and for any still very good now it's still very good right and what blue ribbon is is like to call it a preseason magazine is really a disservice right like it's a phone book like we didn't spend any money on pictures or graphics or anything fancy.

It was meat and potatoes of every team in the country. And Chris Wallace, who founded it, who's now, you know, for reasons I can't quite fully explain, still in the GM and the NBA. God love them. He brought me on as an editor. Well, first is my first assignment. One summer I covered the Ivy League. Okay.

And then it went on to become an editor and then a managing editor. And I was assigning writers all around the country to cover leagues and places I never heard of. That's how I met Andy Katz. He wrote for Blue Ribbon. So like, yeah, if you like Andy and you think he gets too much exposure, it's my fault. And then when when when when when Chris, Wallace, you know, was easing out and beginning to work in various NBA roles, the Heat and, and then the Celtics and then the Grizzlies, I took it over in the early 90s.

And, you know, it wasn't a large subscriber base, but the people who did subscribe were the people in the sport. Right. Right. And that was a good thing. And because we could never, seem to grow the base beyond the junkies in the hardcore fans in the beginning of the year because like even people who really

like college basketball most of them don't want to read a 400 page book in October right? They just don't. No, but it's a reference book. Yes. You know, if you're doing a game,

if you get, like even today, I'll get, like I was talking to Dave Revston yesterday, right, our old buddy. And he's like, if I have you know, Wisconsin against Arkansas, saw a pine bluff, what do I do on November 6th? I pick up blue ribbon. Of course.

Today. Today. And my invention, if you will, was I took to Chris Wallace, who would still a financial partner, and Chris Stewart's my working partner, who's running it now and still doing a great job, like you said, Doug. I said, you know, maybe the audience is the postseason. if we could somehow do a tournament preview when the bracket comes out, give it the full blue ribbon, you know, depth of attention.

Like, is there a window between, in those days, Sunday night at 6 o'clock and Thursday at noon to get something in people's hands because, you know, there was no like emailing a PDF

or, you know, kindling or, or, you know, whatever, like if you were assigned to Boise State, you got one paragraph from small print in USA Today. That was it.

And like, we're like, we can do better than that. And my job was to make that happen. And it was a critical success. ESPN bought 500 books. CBS bought it for all their on-air people. Doug, I looked up opening men of the tournament. There's Nance sitting at the desk with my book. in 1995, and I'm like, holy crap.

Like, this is maybe something, right? Because I'm just this guy in Philly did with nothing. Right. But we didn't make any money because Mr. Non-Business plan had assigned like 100 teams around the country because I didn't know who was going to be in the field. And we had to be ready to go to print right away. So light bulb, right?

you know uh-huh you sit back after a fashion and go well suppose we can get a hundred to 80 or 70 or 64 or close to it and we're not paying for all those extra writers and printing and typesetting and galley you know all that stuff that goes into a hard copy product so brackatology really was an effort to make the book easier so me learning about how they did it, how they did it, so that we wouldn't have to do as much work. So I jokingly say, you know, it was just laziness. No, it's, okay. So of course it was. So how did you, okay, so you have this idea. This is what year? The, uh, Chris and Chris and I went to a Tennessee Florida game at Thompson Bowling Arena. Uh, the, the, the, um,

would have been 95. We did the first book in March of 95. So this was January of 95. And I said, I really think that we can do this. And it was really bumpy the first year or two, both the business side and fulfillment. And, you know, Dorch and company working on that end of it, me in my office at St. Joe's with like 10 just hardcore people like you or me sitting there banging out stories

and keeping track at conference tournament games all over America and every ESPN channel on on these old, you know, you know, picture tube TVs. And literally, you'll appreciate this. Literally me sitting there. I assigned a kid one year to count the number of teams that Digger put into the Sweet 16, talking about in the run up, right? Oh, that's a Sweet 16. And, you know, we love them. But, yeah, 37. And...

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days I'd put on 10 pounds, I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds.

Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series

because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. nass, but get that thing. That man,

hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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I'll go through the process of healing so that patience, that perseverance and that prayer equals healing to me. From understanding your mental health to doing the work, we break down practical tools, real conversations, and the mindset shifts you need to move forward and thrive. You matter too. Your mental health is your responsibility, not your wife, not your partner, not your children, not the church, not the pastor, not the council. It's your responsibility. It's time to stop putting your healing on hold and start doing something about it. Listen to Just Heel with Dr. Jay on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. You know, I finally get to ESPN years later and I tell him that

story and, you know, he was as gracious as, you know, we all remember. And, uh-huh, uh-huh. Um, And then he'd be like, you know, and he knows it. Well, Hardy, where did you get all these teams? I'm like, Digger, I don't know how you do it, but I just get to 64 and stop. You know, because there's a little bit of a limit there. And that experience of learning the process. And good Lord, I look back now and I think of all the things I didn't know, right? But frankly, neither did the committee.

Right? Like they were, I was doing a half-ass job, but so were they. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox SportsRadio.com. And within the IHeart Radio app, search FSR to listen live. When was the last time you seriously considered your dream? Did something never thought you would do. How about live the van life and a totally custom,

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You go to Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com, and there you enter, get official rules for a chance to win this beautiful Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com and you have to do so by February 2nd. Your dream is waiting for you. Danpatrick.com, Fox SportsRadio.com. Some equipment described is optional. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinnwity host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council.

What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. No, what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. By the way, Florida, Tennessee that year, do you remember, who won the game?

I think Florida did. They had Andrew DeKlerc. Yes. And Demet Hook. They went to the final four. No, they went to the final four in 94, not 95.

You know, they were, Lon was the young coach. His little son was on the bench, remember? Yeah. He's probably like, I almost went to Florida.

I almost went to Florida for 95-96. So yeah, they stomped, Tennessee was bad that year. That was, I think it was the first year of Kevin O'Neill being there. And well, and then what really, really are obscure trivia after the game as we were sitting around yakkin, here comes to Tennessee women to practice.

Right? And I wouldn't know Pat Summitt. Like she wouldn't know me at that time late Pat Summitt. And like I had no idea that these big time women's programs had guys practice with their teams. to beat on the girls like in the lane. Yeah. Like if you can get a rebound against, you know, this 6-6 kid from, you know, the intramural team,

then you can get a rebound in the tournament. And I'm like, whoa. Like I was really naive and wet behind the years in that period. But then also around that time, Wallace, Chris Wallace, during champion, week at ESPN was the guy on the desk with Bob Lee. I didn't know that. Okay?

And Wallace said something like, you know, they were starting a website, which wasn't even called ESPN.com. It was called SportsZone out of Seattle, Washington. And Wallace was like, you know, in his good old boy way, you all to talk to Lenardi. He's got good stuff. and Howie Swab was involved in this conversation, believe it or not. And an editor who's still there by the name of David Schoenfeld on the baseball side. And we were like, you know, I'm like, hey, can you run?

I got these little projections for the field on a napkin like a month out. Why don't you run them and stick the 800 number on the bottom for people to order the book? and we won't pay for the ad and you won't pay for the projections. I'll just give them to you. Well, Doug, it was like instant insanity. Even though people had to like click 43 layers in to find it and there was no picture, there was nothing. It was just like a typewritten page basically

in the very, very primitive days of web design. But man, it took off. It was just, you know, maybe three, four years after that that I started getting paid by ESPN to do it, sold my blue ribbon share, and took this portion of my hobby on to the network. Because like I always, like I had a job in little kids. Like I couldn't, there was only so much freelancing I could fit into, you know, the world. and I was still helping out with the book and still happening out with the tournament guide but you know, Dorts and his team took it over

and did that for a few more years and then in 2002, I don't know if you remember Mark Prysler sure, you know, great producer at ESPN like I'm sitting in my office one day and he calls me and he's like you ever do TV and I'm like, well, only in my role

as a spokesperson for the university, not like IFB in the year, talk about Duke, right? And I went down to an uplink place. I did a couple of hits on ESPN News. Apparently it wasn't a disaster. And they brought me, start bringing me up. Remember that old ESPN News studio in the middle of the newsroom? Yeah.

You lived there. I got my side. I'm being in the box. Yeah, exactly. And you know, it was literally like a short par three to radio in those days from where they right like like you could you know there was a newsroom a bathroom and radio and that was where I got my start I started going up in 2002 was my first selection Sunday in Bristol and that streak was uninterrupted until four days ago when I did it from my house right so 20 straight years of

you know, putting up with you guys on Selection Sunday. Tell me how wrong I was. So, um, that's amazing, right? Like, it's like I kind of all coming back to me too because I had, I, I, I filled in for a guy named Todd Wright. I remember Todd Wright. He did an extra job overnight radio. I used to be on his show when I was in college.

Wasn't it all night with Todd Wright or something? Yeah. Yeah. And after, after 9-11. Mm-hmm. He wouldn't get on a plane to do two shows. So I was like a, I was, I still was playing. I played, it was after playing one year in Russia.

Luis Coronetta, who's now doing, who's now doing podcast. She was his producer. She helped bring me up there. Anyway, that was my first time up in Bristol. Then I did an audition in Bristol a couple years later. And then I got, well, I was full time the following year. So this was like 2003. is pulled. Anyway, I'll never forget,

first day I'm there, I pulled in, I parked. You know, I'm like getting my badge. I'm super excited. And I run into Howie Schwab, who I don't know, I don't know anything about. And he's like, Doug Gottlie, Oklahoma State. He starts, like reading off. Reading off your stats. I know.

Sevens all time and assists. 937. It's like, you're right behind Greg, three behind Greg Anthony. And then he's like, starts going through your, could you put, like, I was like, oh my. I know. What am I doing? Like he lets Biana.

So. Like people call me a nerd. So, and then how I got my start in television there, because I've done games. Right. But I went in and I saw. Which you should still do, by the way. Yes. Because you're like, you know, God love you for everything you do.

But like, I think your best is doing games. I appreciate that. And, you know, because my Hawks don't, you know, generally win a lot of tournament games, and you and Spiro happened to do the last one that we won, it might come up on my timeline occasionally. And it just makes me smile because I know you. Yeah, it was, that was an incredible game, right? Where there was tip in after the buzzer,

unbelievable game, and St. Spoke. And, of course, I was there at the most famous St. Joe game, where they lost Oklahoma State in 2004. Right. And here's the story to that one. So I had done a couple of St. Joe's games that year. I remember.

And I was driving down to see the coach Sutton, he got me tickets. And Sean Sutton's like going over every pit of the scouted report with it. Okay, now, now do you have their calls? Like, I don't have any of their calls, Sean. I was super, their gym is tiny. It's super loud and they were great. And you couldn't hear anything.

And, you know, and do you, I was like, oh, I can tell you on personnel. Anyway, I just remember, okay, so when was the first time it became Brackatology? We talk about that a lot in the book. We're not entirely sure. Apparently, I did a print interview for a buddy in Philly who was the college columnist for the Inquirer. in 95 or 96, this would have been around Curry Kittles Villanova time. And, you know, what are Villanova's chances? Can they be this seat or that seat?

And your temple was on the bubble and what do you think of that? And the article we dug out, the line is, you know, said Joe Lennardi of Drexel Hill, PA, who calls himself a brachatologist. Did you actually call yourself a I don't remember I really don't remember It's a it's a it's a I mean honestly

It's an unbelievable name for what you do It does it does like Let's be honest It does but it also And it has like a scientific feel to it Which I get right But it also has a little bit of proctology to it Like it feels like

Proctologist Bracketologist And you know You've been a pain in Billis's ass for 20 years that. Yes. And now it's like famously getting along. And I don't really know what I did differently.

I think here's the thing. I get along very well with Jay now as well. And I didn't initially. Right. We talked about it on a pod a couple years ago. And, you know, I'm sure it was a little bit of him kind of, you know, peeing on his tree to mark his territory. but I did half time.

I did one half time with him. And he like turned his back to me on set. Like he did like like that at all. Well, I mean, you know. But here's why I think you have been welcomed into that family. And I think this is why Jay has been really good to me as well, which is once the guys figure out like you're the same for everybody. You don't really play favorites. And you're just you and this is your lane.

and you're not trying to call games. You're not trying to, he's got his thing, you got yours, you got it, and he's actually a great dude. Exactly. Yeah, it just took a little bit of while to break the ice because he's trying to figure out who's this Lenardi guy. Yeah, right. Philly guy, he's got all the answers.

Yeah, and nobody likes that kid in school, right? Nobody likes to be in the back room that's got to. Nobody likes that guy. And look, I'm a, you know, like I had a, I had a, I did an interview once when I was at CBS that the CBS bosses didn't like, but it's actually totally accurate. Where I said, you know, the big challenge when you're calling a game is to be a know-it-all, but not act like a know-it-all, right? Like that's the, that's the kind of hard part, right? is to like you do know who I know the answer but you can't ooh-o-oo for every every question that's a hard that's the hard one so okay so who was the first committee member or person to show you like

because now they i mean obviously they have in the last two years but they take everybody in they show people the process yeah yeah who is the first person to really show you the process I would have to say Jack Cavance, who was the AD at GW and, you know, kind of part of that like old crowd of New England former coaches. A good guy retired now. And I was introduced to him by R.A.D. Don de Julia, who had, you know, found a ball-geared copy of the principles and procedures. sometime in the mid-90s and handed to me and said, you know, go have some fun. And, you know, if there was a moment when I thought I could sit at the grown-ups table, you know, around this time of beginning to talk to committee members, Tom O'Connor,

who was the AD at George Mason when they did their thing, you know, was another person who at least let me talk to him, you know, like would make time for that little guy. who, you know, with the pencil and the pad. But the Atlantic 10, sometime, I don't know, late, you know, 06, 07, 08 in that range, had like the commissioner at that time formed a committee of a couple coached and a couple ADs to talk about, like, how should we set up our league schedule? Should there be guidelines for our schools for non-conference scheduling to maximize their chances in front of the committee.

This was kind of like the early days of beginning to be strategic about this stuff, right, and to close the gap between the majors and the next tier, right? Because, you know, units were still a lot of money and they wanted more of them. Fundamentally, that's what they wanted. And Jack was on this committee, and the Atlantic Ten at that time was headquartered in Philly, so they put me on it. So, you know, like we'd go down there like one summer day. And this particular season, GW lost one game, okay?

They were, they were a sixth in the AP poll, and they got an eight seat. Because they had like the 323rd non-conference schedule, right? So we're sitting in this committee room, and Kavanaugh is telling the other coaches, the other, like, and I remember, Sean Miller was it Xavier. He was in the room. You know, Martelli was in the room. Like, like, some pretty smart people. I think an assistant for Cheney, it wasn't Cheney.

But, because that would have just scared everyone. But, like, Jack's like, fellas, you just got to go win games. And I'm like, and he was on the committee at the time. So like it's going around the room And you know like don't worry about your schedule Just go you know Just go win as many games as you can And it's going to and you know like I'm sitting there

With my charts and my you know Abacus and everything and I'm like you know That's really not right And I'm thinking do I speak do I not speak You know I'm not sure I'm at the grown up table And it gets and plus he's on the committee He's sitting across the table, right?

At this moment. And maybe he had rotated off. I don't remember. And he had been really good to me. And Joe, you know, what do you think of all that? I said, I said, what just happened this year? Like, short of Marcus Camby,

the Atlantic tennis probably never had a higher ranked team on selection Sunday than did that year. And I said, Jack, you got an eighth seed in Duke's region in Greensboro. I said, like, short of getting hit in the head with a bat, your non-conference schedule, like, what am I missing? And then he goes, then he goes, well, you know, like they make us leave the room and they talk about your team and I don't know what the discussion was and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I said, but they let you back in, right? Like you saw them, you looked up and you went, we're a free. and eight we're 27 and one.

Like I looked around the room and I said, fellas, Cheney and Calipari gave us the model. Play anybody anywhere. If that means an eight for one with Kansas, you do it. Right? Like you just do it. Is it fair that they dictate the terms? No, but life isn't fair. Right? And then I knew, I knew because like the other, you know, they don't want to

You know how to kind of play the room. And, you know, there's a little bit of quiet. And Jack says, well, you know, maybe that'll be the way it is going forward. And I'm like, well, let's all agree on that. You know? And to his credit, he, even he said, yeah, you know, that might be a trend. And clearly, for a long time after that, as long as the RPI was still involved, it was. Okay.

A couple, couple quick ones. did George Mason belong in the tournament when they got to the final four? Arguably not. Now here's what's very important. I don't want to disturb your train of thought. But what happens is people want to assume that if,

I'll never forget, I was at CBS. I'm on the selection of stuff. And UCLA, Steve Alford, and I remember they got in. I didn't think they belonged in. And when we had the head of the committee on, it was like, well, they got hot late in year. Well, they played the three worst teams in the Pack 12

and won kind of meaningless games. And then Lost going to the Pac-12 tournament. And I was like, look, I said something sarcastic. There was no reasonable human being thinks they belong in this field, right? Yeah, that always hits me in trouble. Yeah, that was a tough one. But it was, you know, like, look, that's kind of my style.

I'll just say a little bit over the top of anyway. So then it comes around to picking games and I pick UCLA to win. And people are like, well, that's a contradiction. Like, no, it's actually not. It's not. Not even close. Right? So, okay.

So George Mason, for people who obviously remember, they went to the final four, but they lost in the CIA tournament in the semifinals. I believe. And Tony Skin, who is their point guard, who could be their next head coach, I think he hit a guy in the nuts on purpose. And he was. And so he was suspended for whatever there. So not only are they a borderline team, but they also aren't going to have their point guard.

For a game. For a game, which normally that takes you down at least maybe a seed, and they got it. How's my memory? Very good. Very good. but it was the player absence, you know, but we'll return thing that was. But they also lost to like, I'm going to say like, Hopster, like twice in the last three games.

Hopster or did get in or something like that. Yes, yes. And, and little, thank God, neither of these teams is still in the colonial, so I can't screw them up as much. Little known rackatology trivia. I missed one, I missed one team that year. and it was Mason, no six, and I missed one team in 2011, and it was here. And you know what? Jerry Palm, God bless him, we just agree to disagree on this.

They were wrong about VCU. Even more, I think, than they were wrong about George Mason. The bottom line is, like, VCU, look, they played their tails off in the tournament, and they shot like 45% from three for a month after shooting, you know, 30%. Great. The kids deserve all the credit. They got the chance. They played the games. They won. Excellent. But that's not the same conversation any more than yours was for picking UCLA after saying they didn't. Like, teams make the NFL playoffs that we think stink, but then all of a sudden we like the matchup, right? It happens. Yes.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

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Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows, without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall.

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It absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, look, the only difference is the people at GMU embraced it in a positive way and they liked me. And people at VCU still hate me. No, they're very angry. They're very angry. Yeah. They're why. But that's been kind of their thing is that it's almost the Greg, Greg Marshall playing.

Which, by the way, by the way, the. Greg Marshall thing is amazing. It's amazing. Because he was, when he was at Winthrop, he was my best friend. And I thought he did a fabulous job as a coach. You know, I didn't know some of the inner workings of how he was treating people. Clearly, he's pretty good at the X&O part. Oh, he's an amazing basketball coach.

And then he goes to Wichita. And here's, here's like, here's a story no one's ever heard. So his first year at Wichita State, he takes over for Turs. You left Ray and I remember Turs took them. Again, that same year as George Mason, he took them to a Sweet 16, I believe, right? Well, they played each other.

Yes. So, anyway, so we're doing a game against, I think it was Missouri State. It still might have been Southwest Missouri State. It's in spring, right? Yep. And Wichita's not very good.

And Missouri State's slightly better. And Greg, before the game, he couldn't be any nicer. and he's like, what time's your flight? I say, well, there's one out of St. Louis, but it's far. And I don't know if I could make it tonight and whatever. He's like, it was a six o'clock start. He's like, I'll take care of you.

I'll get you there. Right? And I go, what do you mean? He's like, I don't like this fucking team. He's like, yeah, it's not my guys. It's kind of first year. It's like whatever, right? He literally didn't call it.

They're down. The second half they went from like down 12 to like down 20, whatever. sitting there winking at me. Right. Not calling a timeout. Nice. Big games just go at least two hours. It goes like a buck 47.

And then he's like the, he's like the gives me the piece out and I'm done. We're like, and we made the flight anyway. Fast forward that to I called their games when they beat Gonzaga. I partied with those guys afterwards. It was amazing. That was no bracket buster days. Right. I got to tell that story in the final four as.

well, right? The next year, they're undefeated. And my argument against them being a one seed was like, hey, look, I did the St. Louis game. That was your toughest game to date. Right. You could have lost it. You didn't, you can't, you can't, you didn't play even close to the schedule of anybody

else. Right. And, and, like, sorry, like, I just don't think you're a one. If I put you in the big 12, you're going to lose four or five games. You'll still be a very good team, but she'll be a one seat. And that was when our friendship apparently ceased. And that was the work to human being on Earth. Did you know Amazon provides ways of working that fit your lifestyle?

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Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Give me a friendship you have lost based upon a eating or something you have said getting ready for a tournament. Well, you know, I'm so magnanimous when I do it. That friendship lost. Well, there's probably nothing more obvious, and this gives me an opportunity to offer you a huge belated thanks for being among many to come to my defense when Archie Miller came after me last year. And Archie and I, when he was at Dayton, like I helped them with scheduling. And we did some TV hits together to promote the first four in Dayton and have, like the Dayton people are awesome with basketball because they just love it. you don't have anything else.

Love it. And they're just, it's a great, it's just a cool. I have no, and it's funny, like, this is a quick aside. Archie was the coach at Dayton. I did their first four game. I mean,

Boise State. Yes. And I said, like, you can't, you can't do that. It takes away from the core of what this is supposed to be about. And I'll never forget that I was doing the game with, with Ion.

Okay. And there's like less than, four minutes to go in the game. It was an amazing basketball game. Came out of the last possession and no claim. And I said on air, on true TV or whatever, like, if you think this is a neutral site, there's 18,000 people that, you know, or whatever,

that disagree. And this is why so many in college, so many college basketball people are so upset. And the place was raucous. That was a great atmosphere. It's awesome. It was, I had, you know, But and Archie to his credit, and I followed that team, they got to the second round, third round, whatever was called back then in Columbus.

Right. And Archie, to his credit, wasn't a dick to me, but he was a dick to you last year. Yeah. And I, you know, and yeah, it's just interesting on how guys like, you're like me. We're just, we just call it like we see. We're just trying to be fair. It has nothing to do with who's friends and who's not. And whenever, but what happens is when it's about them,

they can, and it's seen as it's a negative, some guys completely change how they treat you. And I just, I made a decision in that moment that I wasn't going to take the bait, right? You know, I wasn't going to like, and I was, Joe, do you want to go on the air? And I'm like, no, because like, he's acting like a child and I want to be the grownup. if that's possible. Yeah. And frankly, you know, if we were PR consultants,

we'd say there's no need for me to defend myself because all of you already were. And the one call I made was to Martelli because obviously we spent forever together at St. Joe's and he'd been in the, he coached against Archie and the A-10 a lot. And the year they went to the elite eight. we beat him three times, including in the 8-10 final.

And now he was at Michigan, and so they're playing Indiana, right? I'm like, Phil, like, what is the deal? And he's like, Joe, the pressure at Indiana is insane. He said, and it would knock a normal person off the rails. And unspoken was that maybe interpersonally, Archie wasn't as evolved yet

as maybe some people in Indiana would like him to be. And I was like, okay, like, I can't imagine the pressure of coaching in Indiana. But you can't treat people that way. No. So to me, the disappointment isn't that that aired all over the world. It's that it's now been a year and change, and he has my number. Like, hey, man, I was a bad moment. It's a bad time.

And I would have been like, hey, like any of us, you're reaching. Anything. Anything. Like, I was feeling pressure to make the tournament. Well, I still had him in the damn field. He just didn't like the first four. And I'm like, well, screw you. Because, you know, not to, not to, not to, like, I'm the bracketologist and you're not.

Like, I know more about this than you do. I'm not going to tell you how to defend the high ball screen. Well, the other part. I don't know how to do it. The other part that's, that's, I think. people have to remember is you all you're trying to do and you tell me if I'm wrong is if you are if you are fly on the wall of that room this is what you think that room would be thinking correct correct correct as opposed to he hates my school right you do hate my school it's okay

he hate my school it's okay I yeah I'm messing okay um well say this and it's also funny that that People will say you're inaccurate when it's not always the case, right? Actually, you go by if you cut out a lot of the human elements to it, you believe if you go based upon their procedures, this is what you think, right? So sometimes you miss, like how many did you get this year? I missed one. Well, who did you miss? I had Louisville in, not because I thought I would have hard. They were so hard.

I mean, they play up in Wisconsin. They play up in Wisconsin. They have none of their guys. Right. So how do we, how do we, how do we adjust mathematical equation to COVID-related issues, which they had throughout the season? And look, the team that, you know, they took Wichita on my board was 69. So like that's as close and miss as you can get, right? And then just because I like saying this and hopefully we'll never have it again.

this year we also got 70, 71, and 72 ranked, right, as replacements. And I had that in exact way. How did you factor in the Drake thing? They lose their point guard. They lost their best player. Now the best player is supposed to come back to the tournament. Yeah. How did you adjust that?

It was an educated guess. I thought, you know, at, look, their metrics were good enough so that the committee could could make whatever decision it wanted and justify it. And those are the situations that keep me up at night. Those are the, because like, if you put 10 people in any room on any subject and said, you have X number of hours to come to an agreement about it, right? Not only is it incredibly difficult.

Yeah. But if the same 10 people meet a day later on the same subject, it might be a different answer. So that's my, that's my world. Okay. The coolest, somebody stopping you on the street, somebody grabbing you, not necessarily, arena, be like, hey, man, I love your work. Like, I, I, give me the coolest one. All right. there's a bunch but my father-in-law in particular loves this one so I'll tell it

one to four years ago now three years four years ago I'm on a golf trip in Ireland okay and you know it's the last day the kudagrock old heading can say it like if if you're a golf guy I've said it and you know what I'm talking about and if you're not just imagine this course on a huge rock in the middle of the ocean, okay? Like Pebble Beach, but in Ireland. All right. And, you know, I am a bogey golfer at best. So, you know, wayward shots are certainly very much a part of the experience for me.

And plus, it's windy as hell over there. And if you can start spinning the wrong way with the wind, you might never find it. So I slice one. And it doesn't just go over. the next door, it goes two holes over. Like I am way off target. And, and, you know, this is one of those courses you got to, like, get a blessing from the Pope to even get on it, right?

So I'm running after my ball and I'm going to get, I'm just going to pick it up, run back to my hole, put it into key plan. I'm not going to be that guy that holds up the whole course, right? I'm just not going to be that guy. I run over and I'm about to pick it up and yelling from way down the fairway, the guy's in that hole, somebody goes. goes, hey, Joey Brackett, you can play. Just move Florida up next year. True story. So who was it? It was just a guy who liked Florida. The guy in the middle of Ireland.

So we end up at the, you know, 19th hall after buying each other, you know, oh my gosh. And all the other guys I was with on that trip, whenever I see him, they just yell, Hey, Joey Brackens, what about Florida? Another time, you love this, because I bet you've been there. The Outback on Queen Street in Southington. Okay. One night, you know, it's championship week. I'm like doing my thing.

And I don't know how I had an hour off, but I did maybe because we had pre-tape the half-time. Who knows? So I'm thinking, I'm going to, this might be my latest chance. I'm going to go actually get a meal with a vegetable, right? see if I can't get through this week. Fried vegetable without it. Just something, something green, even if it's a painted onion ring. Right?

So I'm over there. And, you know, you could sit at the bar, get a quick, because I hate to sit at like a table by myself. Right. So I'm sitting there. And a segment that we've done, hell, you could have been in for all. The segment comes on, and there's this guy like a couple seats down. He's looking at me, and he's looking at the TV. And he's looking at me and looking at the TV.

And it's kind of putting it together. Right. So I go, I go, oh, yeah, that's my twin brother. We all think he's a jacket. And he's like, yeah, I already think he knows everything. What does he know? So I keep it going, like the whole stick for another few minutes. And he's leaving, can I give him my card? And he gives me this card. I give him my card. And I said, I think I got you. That was pretty fun. That was pretty fun. Well, listen, you're always good with me. Great stuff, man. I can't wait to, I can't wait to see.

Hey, can I say one more thing? Yeah. I say one more thing. We're not time limited here. Even though, you know, we're not on a regular basis. Very cool from afar on social media watching you be a dad. Very cool. Because I remember when the twins were born.

And clearly, you know, that's not now a recent development. Here's what I'll give you. Very cool. As now, like I have. two grown, you know, and out of the house. Well, so my son's birthday, this will drop tomorrow, first day of the tournament. My son's birthday is tomorrow, March 19th,

first day of the tournament. Which is why, in my neck of the woods, St. Joseph's Day. Ah. For him. I almost named him Steph, but Steph Curry didn't make the tournament, remember. In 2009.

Yeah. Yeah, 2009. The year after, he didn't make it. Wow. Yeah, he didn't make it. Didn't make the tournament. Well, after, you know, we let you win in 2004, why didn't you name on your mirror? Good point.

I never, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I wasn't done. I wasn't done. I never met your dad, but seeing you, you know, pay him tribute in so many different ways, the best way you're doing it is in being the dad that you are. And I just wanted to say that. And I also wanted to say, thank you for the archie thing, but especially the dad thing. So thanks for doing it.

I just, this is my thing with the archie thing. I know you as a person. And I've always been this way and that you're always allowed to attack my work. And this is where you and I were really good, where we always would go back and forth about things. And at the end of it, we're still friends, right? Like it's just, but some people. We're talking about a basketball game.

Right, but some people will take it very personally. Okay. And what they, I'm not saying you. I'm saying there have been people that we have both worked with, some that you continue to work with. That take it very personally. And they lash out personally. And I felt like, the thing that you do that I know, I think you know,

but you don't know if you know is you actually celebrate the sport. We just don't have enough people that are like just that into the sport. the actual sport, the actual, and so there's, we, we try and find the negative in anything. And I'm like, bro, here's a dude who gets up every morning. All he wants to do, like the greatest thing in the world is the, is the, the reason it all works is the bracket. That's the reason it puts so much money. Anybody who wants to tell you otherwise, it doesn't, doesn't understand that it fits. And the four extra teams kind of screw it up.

So we pretend like these first four games don't happen. But with that bracket is perfection. And that's, you create a cottage industry and you carry very little, little of any bias in it. So somebody that wants to attack you, the person, I will always have your back, even if I don't always agree with some of your, some of your assessments. Yeah, because, okay. But, but, but this is the, so, so here's how, how much basketball is a part of my life. My daughters were, well, Harper, I have Harper and Grace, they turn 15 next month. My God, you are in for it.

So 15 years ago in February, my brother was an assistant at San Diego State. They're taking on UNLB. And we all got together. His wife was pregnant. My wife was pregnant. And we couldn't figure out how name these damn kids. We had three kids, he had three kids coming and no names. and they found out that and wait until we all got it.

Larry Moe and Curley weren't available. It was pretty good. My sister was pregnant too as well as crazy. And we found out, they found out that they were having a boy on that trip. We all met in Vegas. So we had boy names. They had some girl names. They gave us girl names.

And we decided on Harper on that trip when San Diego State played UNLB, but that's not the crazy part. Okay. Here's where it comes back to Joey Brackett's and our job and why it sucks sometimes. Our brother worked for Steve Fisher for eight years. Drew Fisher is a nice human being. But he was a jerk to me after that game because at some point I said, you know, like they're not, I don't remember if I said they're not in the field or they've got to win these amount of games or whatever like that's just right right but he you know like he's like I can't believe call me ever after

the game I can't you know I got to be all these calls and messages I can't believe you wouldn't have us in the field when your brother works here and I go coach I go I can't do that you can't do that I can't I can't do that like that wouldn't be like I can't that when when you guys won the league and you I thought you deserved a better seat it wasn't because of my brother or because the job you does because you deserve a better seed, right? Like, anyway, he grabbed me like two weeks later. He called me and he said, he called me and he apologized. And he said, Dad, I just want you to know.

I got done winning a game. I looked at my phone and somebody told me you said something. I watched the tape and it totally, like he was the most, he was such a gentleman. And he was so apologetic. And then he said that's what you're missing from. arch you, right? That's all you missed with Mark. It's like, hey man, I was under a ton of pressure, you know, and I just lost it. I supremely apologize. That's all you're going to say, and then we're good. He doesn't even have to supremely, just has to be a human being. Just like,

acknowledge the fact that like, okay, I had a bad mom. That's all. Yeah. I got a, I got a left, this little lefty kid. I don't know if he'll be big enough, but he can really, he can do what I can do. He can really shoot the crap out of it. I can't wait. Hopefully, sometime you have them in your bracket. Yeah, let me, let me break it to you. He's not going to get much bigger. This is an area of expertise I own. Okay? Yeah. Hey, I got to run. You're a great, great a day. Say hi to your family and and let's introduce this tournament. All right, brother. See you. Later. Whether you're a student interested in green energy, looking for a great new career or a seasoned building professional who wants more knowledge about energy efficiency.

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Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to The Cliford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, and on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be? I call on my Gen X squad from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate Midlife's most fantastic BS. Unfiltered conversations from night sweats to fupas to scheduling sex.

Wait, what sex? Is it just me or does every woman my age want to look at Pinterest instead of having sex sometimes? They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.