The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Lack of Pippen 'Last Dance' Context; 4 x NBA All-Star Mark Price on MJ Battles, 'The Shot,' Shooting, '84 Olympic Tryouts

Episode Date: April 23, 2020

In this episode, Doug points out how The Last Dance Jordan documentary conveniently leaves out Scottie Pippen's role in his falling out with the Bulls, and why documentaries are always slanted to one side. His guest this week is 4-time NBA All-Star Mark Price, who discusses watching the evolution of Michael Jordan from college to the NBA, his battles with the Cavs against MJ's Bulls, the Bad Boys Pistons, and being on the receiving end of 'The Shot.' Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Check out the lost debate on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, welcome in to this edition of All Ball, your boy Doug Gottlieb here. You can listen to the Doug Gottlieb show, 3 to 6 Eastern, 12 to 3 Pacific. Every single day on Fox Sports Radio, if you're on the app thing, you do the IHeart Radio app. If you want to stream us, you're sitting and working at home now, that's Fox Sportsradio.com. Every day we talk whatever is the latest topic in sports. I know there's not live sports.

We've talked a lot about the last dance. And we're going to have Mark Price join me, the great sharpshooter Enid, Oklahoma, Mark Price Arena, where I played with the USBL Storm, obviously. And I know his dad, his brother Brent and his late father, Denny was just a great, great man, actually, our assistant coach with the Oklahoma City Storm. So Marco, join us in a moment.

I want to give you a couple of thoughts here on the first incarnation of the last dance, which is in fact, which was good. I've been told the second episode is the slowest, of the 10, although not all 10 are finished. I've had people watch them all or whatever they have and said that one was the episode of all of them, which it did feel that way. I thought there was a lack of context there with the Scotty Pippin story, only in that not only did Jordan have a problem with him taking the summer off of getting a surgery,

but we forget in 94 when Jordan had retired to play baseball. That was when Scotty Pippen wanted out of the game because Phil didn't run the play for him. You ran for Koo Coach, Koo coach hits it to shot, and then it becomes a big to do. And of course, they ultimately lose in the series to the New York Knicks.

Like, that's an issue. These are all, when you have long relationships with people, when you kind of quit on your team because you're not getting the ball down the stretch, you're in a big situation, that there's going to be some shrapnel there.

There's going to be some hard feelings there. And then for Skye to say, like, yeah, I didn't get the surgery because I wanted to have a long, beautiful summer, you know, F them. Like, that's a fuck you to the organization. Like, I don't know. Like, we can sit here and go,

Jerry Krause was this and that. Scotty Pippin signed a long-term deal that the start of the deal was a, was one of the top 10 highest paid players in the NBA. And by the end of the deal, it was not. By the end of it was a bad deal. He would have gotten paid. He would have gotten taken care of. Which he did.

He just didn't get it with the Bulls. That's, you know, that's the way you make it work. So, I mean, this, it's actually very similar to a lot of places. at work where, you know, you sign a long-term deal, you think you want security, and then in the middle of getting security, you feel like you're getting screwed because other guys are getting more money. In the end of the day, he made over $100 million as a player. Like, I just, I don't know.

I agree with Jordan there. He got to got lost in the moment, lost in his own issue, and we're supposed to forget that he quit on the team in 94. That was a bad, bad, bad look. I also think that this is interesting, and I said it on radio, and I'll say it to you. you ever notice how we take documentaries as the end all be all right the end all be all like there was a doc on i forget the company's name that the repud that the trump um election committee hired and you know they were the is the cambridge analytics remember that cambridge if you watched it you're like

oh cambridge analytics got you know was they're all bad people they were simply working for the Republicans and this. And then if you do a little bit of research, if you do a little bit of research that Cambridge Analytics, like some of the people who the documentary was counting on to be whistleblowers, they weren't being totally forthright. They weren't being honest. But between that documentary, the Tiger King,

and now the last dance, like can we collectively do ourselves a solid and stop, take a breath, think about, just think really long and hard about whether or not we both, that there are two sides to every story. And maybe if, you know, it's like the Tiger King, like Joe Exotic's a bad guy. There were people who had a petition together to get him pardoned. What? And I don't know if Carol Baskin killed her husband and fed him, she fed him to the tigers,

but I would think that we'd be a little bit further along in an investigation. We wouldn't need a documentary to uncover that thing. she was made out to be a horrible human being and she may be definitely creepy thought there was no good people know that as my takeaway but as we watch this documentary there's going to be a lack of balance because somebody has to tell the story and jordan's telling most of the story all right with that let's let's get to mark price he's one of the great point guards who i think would carry over to this era quite well because he was an unbelievable shooter passer play a pick and roll player and by the way, a really good guy whose family has given back to the game

and teaching the world shooting for the last, I don't know, 50 years or so. Let's catch up with a great Mark Price. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the IHeart Radio app. Welcome to him, he's a former NBA All-Star, of course, head coach of Charlotte and a long-time assistant coach, shooting coach in the NBA. He's done just about everything in basketball. He's Mark Price.

I actually, I'm going to, usually we like to start early and then work to where you are now. I'm going to kind of jumble the order just because the only thing anyone's talking about in sports outside the NFL draft is the last dance, which the Jordan era coincided, for the most part, with your spectacular career in the NBA. and your last year playing in the NBA was Jordan's last year playing with the Bulls. Just your thoughts on the first two episodes and what you saw. Well, I think, obviously, for everybody, particularly in my era, and for me personally, haven't kind of been there and experienced it

and actually played those guys. And it's interesting to kind of get the backstories. You kind of think you know stuff. It's always fun to kind of get more details and kind of see what's, from their perspective, you know, what was going on during that time. Because you only kind of saw the team come to town, the hooplaff surrounding the Bulls team at that time, you know, when you played and either liked the Bulls, you didn't like the Bulls. You know, one of those kind of things. And so I think just for those of us that lived it, it was, you know, I thought interesting start. it. Okay. Well, you lived it, but you lived it as you guys, there were several years there where you had

incredible teams, right? Like, you know, 55 plus, we had a couple of 50 plus win teams and you couldn't get, like he was the nemesis. Some predating you, but, but, but, but he was the nemesis. What, let's start with Jordan himself. I know you've worked for as well. What was, your first Michael Jordan experience was, was, was when? Well, my actual first Jordan experience that was in college. Sure. You know, I played at Georgia Tech, those that don't know. And, you know, in North Carolina, you know, I had just won the national championship.

Michael just hit the shot. He was a sophomore when I was a freshman at Georgia Tech. And so, you know, playing against him at that time. And then also, after my freshman year, I've, was picked to play on the 83 Pan American team with Michael. And so, you know, I played with him. I played against him from, you know, at college to what he turned out to be in the NBA. So I kind of know the whole spectrum of kind of his growth and development as a player.

Because I think, you know, as good as Michael was in college, I don't know that anybody would have predicted he would have become, you know, MJ, you know, and what he became at the NBA level. Okay, so when you first played against him in college, your freshman year, he's a sophomore. What was he like? Well, he was obviously a very talented player, but you also have to realize he was playing at North Carolina under Dean Smith and his assistant. You know, I think the joke that goes around a lot, the only person that could ever stop

Michael Jordan was Dean Smith, because he had his style as they played, and it didn't matter who you were, you fit into that style. And so you saw glimpses of his greatness and his ability, but I don't think it was a situation at the college level where he could totally take over a game like you can at the NBA level. And so his game just, I think there was a lot to his game that people didn't see in college just because of the system that he played in. So you go to the Pan American Games team.

I had the roster, by the way, in front of me. This is an unbelievable roster, right? You, Chris Mullen, Michael Jordan, Michael Cage, Ed Pinckney, Charlie Sitton was an incredible player at Oregon State. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source. the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

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On my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free. iHeartRadio app search learn a hard way and listen now what's up guys this is clivert taylor the fourth and on my podcast the clivert show i'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff like being an internet famous referee we're in the middle of a game this linebacker you know these kids this linebacker walks up to me he goes hey ref my mom wants you to wave at her what time out look quarterback on office blue 42

hey rep my mama want you to wave at her what Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Cliverts show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Jared Adano. You might know me as that loud guy who yells out, help on the internet.

Help! Somebody! Please! But there's so much more to me than that. I'm an actor. I'm a comedian. And recently, I've become quite the helper myself. And on my new podcast, Hope from a Hippocrat, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions.

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This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrite as part of the Mike Coutura Podcast Network available on the I-Fart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In Tisdale, one of the all-time great, not only Oklahoma products, University of Oklahoma, but at Tulsa, who was the first team All-American, his first three years in college, Leon Wood, who, of course, played in the Olympic team in 84, who was now an official, has been an NBA official.

Like this is a Sam Perkins, remarkable roster. What was that experience like? It was an unbelievable experience. You know, I was kind of shaking myself because, you know, here I was just a freshman, you know, at Georgia Tech.

And, you know, I went to those trials. And the thing that was funny about those trials was the coach there was a legendary Jack Hartman. Sure. From Kansas State. I had turned him down to go to Georgia Tech. They recruited me extremely hard, Long Kruger, with his top assistant who recruited me to Kansas State.

Had I not gone to Georgia Tech, there was a good chance I would have ended up at Kansas State. And so when I got invited to the trials, I was like, well, I'm going to go enjoy this experience. There's no way Hartman's sticking me to play on that team. And yet he did, which spoke a lot to him, his character that he wanted to get the best guys and make the best fit of a team to go play internationally. So it was an unbelievable experience. You mentioned the roster and all those guys

were just fantastic. We had a blast and getting a chance to go play together. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet tree, and more. Surprise your Valentine with 1,800flowers.com. Right now, get the 18-stem enchanted rose medley for $39.99 or upgrade to 24 red roses for $10 more. Go to 1-800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1-800flowers.com slash tune in. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinwiddie host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, presented by

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reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Was Jordan the best player? Was Tisdale the best player?

Well, Jordan was the best player. He kind of, you know, had the, you know, got the Hank has taken off a little bit. I think he let loose, not being, you know, in that North Carolina system. So he kind of let loose and showed what he could do. And he was definitely the best player.

But we had so many guys that were capable on that team and on one night, given to the other. But I think Jordan let us in scoring for the Pan Am games. But like you said, we had so many great players on that team. Yeah, it was kind of an amazing thing. roommate. I can't remember, to be honest. That's kind of weird, I know, but

it was one of those, they had this initially like an Olympic village-type deal that wasn't very well done. This was in Croft of Venezuela, and there was a bunch of crazy stuff going on during that time, political stuff, and remember teenage kids

with guns or escorting us to these games and stuff that was kind of scary in some ways. But they eventually moved us to a hotel, got us out of there. kind of a living situation. And, well, now that I think of, I think it was Kyle Mason. Kyle Mason, it was one of the guys that I was with. Again, I apologize for skipping around because it's actually harder, I know, to remember that way.

But the next year was 84. You went to the 84 trials, and there's like all these famous, unbelievable players, you among them, that didn't make the team. Jordan did. Barkley didn't. you didn't Stockton didn't what was what was the 84 Bob Knight was the coach the Olympics were in Los Angeles

now of course you were an established star in the ACC coming off your sophomore year coming off playing for the Pan Am game teams what was the 84 tryouts like and I guess why didn't you make it you know Bobby Knight kind of had his own ideas of what he wanted when he was going in I think there was I have a pretty good idea

from my perspective that he had that team kind of already picked in his mind. You know, it was disappointing because we were kind of under the impression that, you know, I mean, like you said, we were so good that that Pan Am team that, you know, having kind of dominated the way we did that we would be highly considered to be on the Olympic team. But, you know, Bobby Knight came in and he kind of did his own thing. And, you know, he had a kid that he took. happened to be going to Indiana the next year and something like that offered that he put on the team. But, yeah, there was so many guys.

That was my first experience. It was funny because going to the Olympic trials. And my first experience of meeting Charles Barkley, I actually sat by him on the plane. I'd never met him. I really never heard of him at that point. And he just dominated those trials. You know, it was so vivid. I mean, that guy was amazing.

So there was a lot of guys that were certainly deserving of being on that team that didn't get picked. It was so different then, you know, like the point is, you know, Charles Barkley, who was playing in college and you had never heard of him, you know, never seen him play. I mean, it's really, whereas now everybody seems to know everybody, even more so than when I played, you know, in you basketball 25 years ago, you'd still, you get to an all-star game and, you know, I remember the first time I saw Kevin Garnett, and I was like, oh, my gosh, he's better than everybody else. and that was, my senior year was an unbelievable class.

But yeah, to see guys for the first time, especially when you play in the AC, and like when you're in the ACC, I mean, you had, what, Dawkins at Duke, you had, you know, Len Baez at Maryland, your guys at Georgia Tech at North Carolina, Virginia, Ralph Samson was a three-time, you know, player the year. I know not all these years kind of coincide. I know there's kind of a jumble of years, but that, but you, you, you, you know, you, you feel like that's where all the great players were, but then there's these players that you'd never seen before, never heard of before,

and now you're playing against them. Yeah, it was definitely a different world that we looked in. I mean, you didn't have cell phones. I mean, you didn't have Internet. So you just didn't have the access. You know, funny stories that, you know, this shows the difference, you know, even in high school and the ability to know people. But, you know, when I was being recruited by Georgia Tech,

I knew they were recruiting John Sally, you know, a kid from New York, but I didn't know anything about him. You couldn't pull up anything to find out about him. I knew he was, you know, 6'9, you know, coming out of New York. And we show up at campus, you know, first night. It's about 2 in the morning, and I hear this banging on my door. And I open the door. I'm half asleep, obviously, and it's John Sally. Like, you've got this big necklace that's spider around his neck.

And, you know, John's the character as everybody knows. And the first thing he says is, where's price? And I said, I'm price. And he goes, you're white. And, you know, it was like, here we were being recruited. We knew of each other. He didn't even know I was white. It's just, so it just goes to show the different world that we grew, you know,

grew up in. and the way things were done. But yeah, to your point, you know, playing in the ACC back then was, I think just about every point card I played against, you know, played in the NBA. You had Kenny Smith at North Carolina. You had Dawkins at Duke. I mean, you had Muggy Bugs at Weight 4s. He had made-knit-McLen and, you know, at NC State along with Spud Webb.

I mean, it was just like night in, night out. It was ridiculous, you know. And so, you know, we were kind of in that bubble. Like, to your point, we felt like all the best players were in the HACC, but then, you know, you go to a Panette and where an Olympic tri-outs and get to see other players from around the country, and it was a lot of fun to see how many good players they were and you run into guys like Barclay and stocking guys he'd never even heard of.

Yeah, my story kind of like that was when I signed at Notre Dame, there was a kid named Gary Bell out of Juliet, Illinois, and he was, like, listed at 6-8, and we were, He played in the, there's a Coca-Cola All-American game that Bob Knight's son ran in Indianapolis. And I never forget, I show up at practice and they're already kind of going up and down because I was like the only West Coast kid there. And I was like, which one's Gary Bell? And they pointed that one.

I was like, shoot, he was supposed to be 6-8. And so he comes over and I go, dude, I thought you were 6-8. He goes, man, if I was 6-8, I'd be outlawed in three states. So he was like 6-5. He was like 6-5. Okay, so let's go back. You grew up now, obviously your late father, Denny, was a legend in the basketball community. I got a chance to stay at your parents' house after my freshman year at Notre Dame because he had worked for and worked with John McLeod.

But now, your entire childhood, was it in at Oklahoma? No, actually, you know, my dad was being a coach. We moved around a lot. You know, a lot of it was in Oklahoma. He started out as a high school coach at Barlow's. Oklahoma where I was born. You know, he was actually, you know, he played back in the old industrial league. You know, the Phillips, he worked for Phillips Petroleum and played for the Phillips 66ers,

you know, back in the industrial leagues. And then he decided to get into coaching. And he ended up being an assistant for John McLeod at the University of Oklahoma. And then when John went to the Phoenix Sun, we moved out there for two years. So, you know, really, when I was a kid, you know, really, when I, I fell in love with the game. You know, my dad was an assistant from Phoenix Suns, and I was about 10 years old and getting to go to all the NBA games

and getting to watch guys like Dick Ben Arsdale and Charlie Scott and all the other guys. That's when I was like, man, that's when I really fell in love with the game of basketball. But then, you know, he eventually got a head coaching job at San Francisco State, so we lived in Texas for about four years. And then going into my high school years is when we moved back to Oklahoma to Enid. but they've been there ever since. So, you know, my high school years weren't needed,

and my brothers lived there longer, but that's kind of where it all started. Why Georgia Tech? Because I think what happens now is we look through the glass of today and figure out what, but like your freshman year of Georgia Tech, you guys weren't good, record-wise, you know? You and John Sally starting as freshman. You guys became very good, but you weren't good.

why would you go play for a New Yorker in the ACC at Georgia Tech instead of Jack Hartman at K-State, instead of playing at OU at Oklahoma State? Why Georgia Tech? Well, it was interesting kind of how to unfold it. Yeah, to your point, Georgia Tech had just gotten into the ACC one or two years before I showed up, and they were one of the worst programs in the country when Bobby Crimmies took over. And he got, you know, coaching the agency, Bobby said, I got to find a point guard and I got to find a big man to start my program. And they were so bad, they obviously couldn't go.

You know, I kid Bobby all the time because after I left, he was able to get Kenny. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the game. the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines.

We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaders to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist,

Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so rapidly. up in the chase, that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough.

Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about. on healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to weigh better. What?

Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming.

The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized. But we actually meet people in. connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Anderson and Step on Marbury's. He could go recruiting before. I said, I even get into this

day, I said, I said, you know, if I were out there today, you wouldn't even come recruit me because I far under the radar. But that's all he could recruit at that time. And his assistant, George Felton, saw me play in an AAU tournament out in Florida. We had unbelievable team. Wayne and Tisdale was on that team with me. We had a really good guy. Anthony Bowie, you know, we had a bunch of guys that ended up making the pros.

And, you know, Oklahoma's not necessarily known to be basketball, it's more football. But we had an unbelievable team. And George Felton saw me. play. He calls up Bobby and he says I found a point card. You'd have to know Bobby. He didn't think anybody at that time outside of New York City could play basketball. Sure. And so he's

he cussing to George saying, I'm not going to Florida to recruit a kid and George says, no, Bobby, it's better than that. It's kids from Oklahoma. And so, of course, the rules were different back then and they came to watch me play 17 times my senior year. And so as I started thinking schools to go visit, I was like, well, at least, I got to go at least visit these guys at school. They earned that.

They've worked their butt off recruiting me. But at the time, I was planning on staying close to home. I loved all the, I was being recruited by all the Oklahoma schools, Oklahoma, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Tulsa, Nolan Richardson was at Tulsa at the time. and they'd just come off a great run with Paul Presley and those guys and Kansas State. And so I was really looking at staying fairly close. But, you know, I had my list of things that I, there were priorities that I was looking for in a school and, you know,

from academics to, you know, back then there was no comparison. The ACC was the best conference in the country. And I was always a huge North Carolina fan. and they kind of passed on me because they said I was too small. But, you know, Georgia Tech came along. I went and visited it and kind of fell in love with the situation. And, you know, I wanted to go somewhere where I could play right away. And Tech was so bad at the time.

I knew that that was going to happen there. You know, people forget, too, back, you know, in my area, a lot of guys, if you went to a good program, you were looking to probably not get much court time until your sophomore. year year. Right. Because, you know, you had guys playing until they were seniors. So it was a different, different environment. I wanted to go somewhere where I could play right away.

I wanted to play against the best. Tech was a great academic school. It just fit all the boxes. It just happened to be a long way away from home. But it ended up being the best decision, obviously. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1-800flowers.com. roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats,

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Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Most points you had in high school was how many? 50. With no three point line, though, right? With no three-point line, and that was about in three-quarter. I remember we were beating a team and, you know, pretty bad, and I'm sitting over there on the bench, and my coach, Dusty even comes by, and he goes, Mark, go back in and score two more baskets.

I didn't even know really know what he was talking about. He didn't say anything. So I go back in, I score two more baskets, and they announced that I have 50 points. I didn't even know I had that many. But so, yeah, it was, uh, I scored a lot in high school. When, you know, I work with your dad, obviously, and I'm not sure your late father would like to claim me

as one of his students on shooting. Here's what's fascinating. Okay, so my freshman year at Notre Dame, John McLeod, I shoot an airball at the free-throw line against Rutgers. It's our first ever big East game, and we had a 14-point league we end up losing at the rack in Rutgers. and I shot an air ball and then I made the next one. And honestly, it wasn't really on my mind,

but I had, I developed a little bit of tension at the free throw line. I was like late in high school. I was never like you guys, but I was a good money like foul me at the end of a game. I'll make them free throw shooter. And I just started to kind of get a little tight and a little bit of the yips. But it wasn't that bad. And the next day, the way it worked at Notre Dame was you'd get like a blink red light on your phone in your dorm room. And it would be a message from Coach McLeod's secretary.

And she would say, you know, can you come down and meet with coach at such and such time? And John McLeod, he was, I mean, unbelievably classy human being. He would never rip you in front of a team. He'd never, everything was very general. Notre Dame, we got to do this. Notre Dame were immature. Notre Dame were this. But it would never be personal at all. Now, when you went into his office, you closed door, now he would, now would be much more personal, whether it's positive or negative. Anyway, so we sit, I sit down in his office. It's like a Sunday morning and we flip on the game.

And I think we're going to watch the game and what went wrong. He wants to know what went wrong at the free throw line. And I was like, I don't know, coach. And, you know, I'd really started lifting weights. I'd gotten big, got a little muscle bound. So apparently he'd called your dad. And so Coach McLeod goes out and we start changing. my free throw form, my shooting form.

Now, keep in mind, John McLeod never played basketball. So it's basically like your dad describing to him what I should do. And one of the things, one of the adjustments that was made was he actually moved my left hand kind of almost in front of the ball. And then when in the summer I came and I stayed with your parents and your dad did the same thing. Then Brent walks into the gym one day. He comes back from playing and he walks in the gym and we're shooting together.

And he goes, why is your left hand in front of the ball? I said, well, that's what your dad did. And he goes, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. And, but you do, you guys do, I mean, look, you're one of the greatest shooters in the history of the sport. Okay. So in terms of shooting, how did you develop, how did you develop your form?

How did you develop your shot? Like when you're, I know this is far afield from what everybody's talking about today, but there's a couple of things that you did. And I want to get to the pick and roll in a second. But in terms of shooting the basketball, you know, what's a thought process in building the perfect jump shot like the one you had? Well, I think there's, you know, some basic things. One is, you know, preparation.

You know, I think one of the things, particularly when I talk to teach shooting and work with people, as most people when they think shooting starts from the waist up. You know, where's your elbow? Where's, you know, where's your follow through? Where's, you know, what do you focus in on? on, you know, those type things, and those are important. But, you know, your footwork and your balance, to me, is where it all starts. And I think most of the misses, you can break guys shots now,

but even guys that are pretty fundamentally sound, most of their missed shots tend to be they're not ready to shoot, they're off balance, their footwork's not where it needs to be. they're not ready to shoot it when they catch the ball. And so that was just something that was, you know, just a real pet peeve. You know, I just was constantly working my feet. As soon as that ball hit my hands, I was ready to get rid of it because, one, I had to get my shot off quick because I wasn't very big, you know,

comparatively to most of the guys I was playing against. And so that was just something I worked on. But, you know, getting that ball, you hear, you know, know, getting the ball in the shooting pocket and having that thing ready. You know, I think guys get real lazy with that stuff. And that was just something that I was tried to consistently, you know, shoot the ball the same way every time. And I think that's where the consistency came from.

Did you have a routine, like, daily? Did you have, like, what is the, what's the process you went through of working on your shot? Like, is it every day I got up and I shot in the morning and I shot at night? Was there a certain number? Like, you know, when you think back to your early, days as a player, what was the pattern by which you built your game around? Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, I just spent a ton of time in the gym, but I was always very purposeful in what I did. You know, I see kids go to the gym. My biggest thing, when I

talked about shooting is, you know, you got to practice with purpose. You know, a guy went to the gym, I got up 100 shots. Well, that doesn't, that doesn't need anything to me. It's like, what, you know, what kind of shops, you know, what were you, what was your purpose in those hundred shops, you know, what is it you're working on? And I think that was the one thing that kind of separated me, because you hear this, he's a hard worker, you know, type thing all the time, but, you know, you can work hard and kind of be spinning the wheels in a lot of ways in my mind because you're not out there with a purpose. You know, one thing I would do, you know, my wife, even, you know, says this all the time when she talked to my boys or whatever,

that I might see something that somebody did over the course of a season, you know, whether I move I wanted to make or, you know, another move that I wanted to add to my arsenal. And I would add that, you know, I would work on that all summer, you know, to try to add so I would go back because you know how it is. I mean, especially now, it's so sophisticated. I mean, everybody knows every single thing you do, you know, how they're going to shut you down with, You've got to constantly be growing. You've got to constantly add things to your game.

And I just felt like that was kind of helped me stay ahead of the curve. And always, you know, the competition at the NDA level. And, you know, ACCC level in college is just off the charts. And so to be the best and to compete against the best, you know, you've got to constantly be improving, finding ways to add and get better. You know, you are, Steve Kerr credited you with being kind of the first to really know, know how to split a pick and roll. You were unbelievable in the pick and roll.

And it's interesting because you look at some of the things that Steph Curry does are things honestly that you did. You know, the ability, some guys can shoot off the catch. Some guys can shoot off the dribble. You could shoot off both. Now, what Steph does, the range that he does it from going to his right, going to his left is almost otherworldly. But there is a, there is, if you study what you did,

there is a lot of, you, you were kind of the, first, like you said, you were ahead of the curve. But that was, you know, you're in an era of more passing game, right? Or of more motion offense. Where did that come from? How did you develop such a supreme game using the pick and roll? Oh, it's funny because I don't know if I ran a pick and roll for four years in college. Like you said, we, you know, we used to run a passing game.

I'd bring the ball up the floor. I'd pass it. I'd go down. I'd come off picks. catching shoot you know that's kind of the way the game was played during that time and so

you know actually the NBA offered it opened up my game to a whole new level you know I know there was a lot of people didn't think I'd be able to play in the NBA but you know I had to my skill set that I didn't even really get to use in college my ability to do stuff

off the dribble was what people I think were sleeping on because I never got to see me do it a lot at the college level. Sure. And so, you know, when I came in, obviously Brad Doherty, who was very, I mean,

one of the most underrated big men doesn't get the credit. I mean, had he not had imagery, I mean, he was a five-time all-stars, it was, but unbelievably, skilled, talented player. We just kind of clicked together with the pick and roll.

I know everybody, when they think our error, they always talk about Stockton and the loan, but I would have put Brad and myself right there with them any day. You know, it's just we were so good, it was impossible to stop, you know, with my ability to shoot the ball coming off picks to how Brad, how we read each other and his ability, it was just uncanny. But, you know, it was funny because my freshman year, how the split kind of came about,

it just kind of happened. It wasn't something that I worked on at the time, but I remember it visible. because we were playing Philadelphia 76ers in the great, you know, Mo Cheeks, who was a great defender at the point guard position. But I'd just come off. We played in Cleveland against Philly, and I'd set my career high at that time. I think I had like 29 or 30 as a rookie that game.

And I was just, you know, killing it from the three-point line. And so like we did back in those days, you had a lot of back-to-backs with the same team. And so we go to Philadelphia the next night. And I mean, in their life, when I get in the game, I was coming off the bench that first year. And I came in the game and came off the pit. I mean, they were like attacking me, you know, trapping me. And it was crazy.

About third or fourth time, I come off, and their big guys just jumping, I mean, jumping hard at me. And he jumps, and I just kind of instinctively, this thing opens up kind of like the red sea. and I just instinctively kind of kind of you know throw the ball between the trap take a couple steps catch it and score and the reason it was so memorable

to me is because as we're running down the floor Mo Chis goes man that was a sweet move and so I was like well if Mochiex is a sweet move and from that point on I kind of purpose purposely when I worked,

started looking for that. And that's just kind of how it developed. And then I just, it just kept growing from there. But, you know, the way teams played back then and the way they tried to double team and trap. And Patrick Ewing, you know, we coached together in Orlando. He used to lie, he said, I used to get so mad,

you know, they're yelling at me to jump out there. And he goes, I knew you were just going to split me every time. And, you know, it was just something that kind of came about. Now you see so many guys doing it. You know, I don't know. know if I was the first guy to do it. You know, I reluctantly take credit for that, but a lot of

people give me credit for being one of the first guys to do it. That, your rookie class. So you were drafted by Dallas was a trade to the cabs. So Hot Rod Williams, you, Johnny Newman, Ron Harper, and Brad Doherty. Like, that's

an unbelievable group of rookies to go to the cast. We look at all the success that you guys had. Ron, obviously, Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source,

the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsCise on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness,

month I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch.

Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear. on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person.

Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, our heart radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee.

We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue of 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Ms. Parker.

Listen to the Clippers show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Jared Adano. You might know me as that loud guy who yells out, help on the internet. Help! Somebody! Please! But there's so much more to me than me.

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available on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. was a big time score before he left and then he got hurt with the clippers and and now he's remembered as more of a winner and an all-around player. But that was, did you know you had something? Like what was, again, it's kind of similar, honestly, to Georgia Tech in that people forget the calves were terrible. And then you guys have this remarkable draft class and like two years later you guys win 57 games.

What was that like to be with such a talented but very, very young Cavs roster? Well, it was just a lot of fun. You know, it was kind of a rebuilding deal. We had the five rookies, like you said, but the other thing that Hot Rod Williams,

you know, he had been drafted the year before, but because of all the stuff he was going through, they didn't allow him to play his first year. And so, you know, you had Brad, Hot Rod, Ron, me, I mean, John, I mean, we all came in together. And it's, you know, I say this all the time. I don't know why, why that draft has to be one of the best all time, you know, for one team.

And yet you don't hear much about that. But, yeah, it was fun. You know, Ron was terrific. Like you said, most people think of Ron as kind of the role player and winning championships and this and that. But, I mean, Ron was a big-time stud coming out. really by his second year, Cleveland, I mean, Jordan, Drexler, but I don't know if anybody else you could much put ahead of him.

You know, he was really good and think he was that slasher that we had in Cleveland after he left really hurt us from kind of competing. But I really believe if Ron at stake, we would have had a legitimate chance at winning a couple championships. I think we were that good. You guys, the next year you made the playoff, for the first time, right?

And that was the first time that you guys lost to the Bulls. I think when I went and looked this, Jordan's first two games, he had 50 and 55. And if I remember correctly, that Lenny's whole, Lenny Wilkins was your coach, right? And his whole deal, his whole deal was we're not, we're going to, we're going to, if he beats us by himself, beat him by himself, but we're not going to double team,

Jordan, and like every year he would beat you, right? Wasn't that? Is that an accurate depiction of the Skyden Report? Yeah, that's pretty accurate. You know, Michael probably scored 50 or more against us than anybody else. But, you know, during the season, most of the time, we would win those games. I remember the thing that most people don't remember whenever they talk about the shot the year that he beat us. You know, first of all, that was like a first round series.

It wasn't for the championship You know But it was a five-game series back then And we were banged up I didn't even play the first game that series I had pulled hamstring But we had beaten the bulls six times that year Six and O against them

And then it goes all You know we'd get it back to game five And then he hits the shot But I mean that's how That's how good we were And he was just an uncanny ability in the playoffs

and we were, it wasn't like we weren't playing well or at a high level. We were playing really well. And, you know, he was just able to take it to a different level. And, of course, it was Scotty Pippen's development.

I think a lot of people are going to see in this last dance thing. Scotty Pippen was the difference maker in so many ways. And how so? Well, he was just, I mean, He wasn't just the number two guy.

I mean, he was legit. He might have been, in some people's minds, maybe the second best player behind George in the league. I mean, he was that good and talented. His ability to take crash off Michael defensively and handle the ball and do all the kind of different things that he did. But the hip-in was unbelievable. And so, you know, when he broke out,

It was light out for just about everybody else. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky.

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And you could be me? For just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside. Each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. We've all felt left out.

And for some, that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us.org. Brought to you by the ad. And we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry.

Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Dipers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed, and they're off.

Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes. Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size.

Learn more at nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Brought to you by Netsa and Netsa and. the ad council. All right, 1989 playoffs. You guys are up 100 to 99. You're at home. What do you remember about the huddle before the shot?

Even to take you back three seconds before that, we were down one. With six seconds ago. And Elo throws the ball in downs. Jordan's covering him. Michael turns his head. Craig just dives to the basket. if Mary hits him layup. We're up one.

He scored too quick. There's still three seconds left, but a lot of people don't even realize that part of the story. I mean, it was just the wave of emotions in that game was unreal. I mean, here we were down, one with six seconds, or up one with three seconds. And basically, Lenny's plan was the double team. And you knew they were throwing it to Jordan,

to double team. and, you know, Larry jumped out to try to kind of help deny, which, looking in hindsight, I think the better play would have been to maybe force him on and make him catch the ball more at half-court area. He kind of went out, Larry Lunds and kind of back cut. They got him the ball, and he got the ball to his sweet spot, the pre-throw line. And, you know, Craig did an unbelievable job. He chased him.

He's right there, and Michael just hangs, lets him pass. and then hits the shot. It was incredible, incredibly disappointing for us, obviously, and everybody in the building. But, you know, it's what great players do. He made an unbelievable shot.

You know, 57 wins that year. Did you get, was the next year the year you got hurt? I was out 90, 91. And you were one of the first guys to not only tear his ACL, but come back. Didn't she? You hit, you like ran into the boards. It was one of those, the first incarnation of the rotating signs, wasn't it? Is that how you were turning?

Yeah, I was actually in Atlanta, of all places we were playing. I went and chased a loose ball, I jumped, and I kind of landed on that kind of rotating sign thing and, you know, tore my ACL. And like you said, at that time, that was a career, career-ending injury. I was actually the quickest back from that at that point in time which shows you the difference in technology today but I was back in 11 months and now the guys get back four or five months or whatever in their playing but I came back and I was able to make the All-Star team

and didn't quite seem to miss a beat you know I was fortunate but they did a great job with obviously my surgery, the rehab and everything else, and I was able to get back. It is fascinating on how you mentioned on how people don't point out Craig's layup. People don't point out how great your draft class was. And it is because we are so, one, it's the Jordan thing, but it's, you know, we're like a bottom line business as sports commentators or sports fans, right?

Like we talk about the Pistons, but that's only because they won two. two championships. You know, obviously the Celtics as well, whereas you guys were consistently competitive, when healthy, even though you lost Ron and then the year you got hurt, you weren't, you guys weren't very good, but you guys were, you know, a 50 plus win team. You just couldn't get past the Bulls. What is that, what is that like to have so many guys have unbelievable careers but not have history smiled down upon you as well because it's covered up under the shadow of the Jordan

era, if you will. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I think it's, it's difficult at times because, I mean, everybody wants to be appreciated for what they're doing. Of course, you know, people in Cleveland, they absolutely loved our team. I mean, they, Cleveland fans are great. I mean, I still go back up there, and it's unbelievable. I mean, how much they loved, loved our team. But, you know, from a national level and, uh,

you know, we obviously weren't appreciated it, but I think you talked to any of the players that played in our area, even the Bulls. I mean, even though they were beating us, it wasn't like, I mean, every one of those games were down to the wire, it seemed like, and they were going, you know, it was going to distance most of the time. But, you know, they were just a little bit better, and they had the superstar player, and I think that was for us, we had so many great, great basketball players.

and all-star guys, but, you know, not that one guy that could just, you know, take over a game. You know, we did it as a team, as a collective group. I mean, had unbelievable teammates, and it was a blast plan. We got everything possibly we could out of our abilities, and I think that's what's satisfying, knowing that, you know, not everybody's going to win a championship. And you look at so many great players. It's not, like you said, you know, I think fortune's got to smile down on you a little bit. And things got to go your way from you've got to be healthy.

You've got to, you know, get a break here and there. It just didn't quite happen for us. But to me, it doesn't diminish my career doesn't diminish what we accomplished. Because, like you said, it was when we came in there, They were the cadavers. And when we left, it was a perennial playoff franchise. And so, you know, we're proud of what we accomplished. You've been able to play in and now coach in, you know, all kind of maybe three of these generations.

Larry Bird and the Celtics. What's an experience like to play against Larry Bird in the peak of his career? Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo.

Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience

in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it,

and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely.

And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliver Show, I'm bringing you.

conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her.

What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month,

tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity peace and self-mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier.

We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized, but we actually meet people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get to. It's your podcast. Well, Larry was just, I mean, he, you know, that era was, was unbelievable, you know, along with magic and what he did with, with L.A., but, you know, there's just something about those

guys, Larry. I mean, he's obviously surrounded by unbelievable players as well, but just to feel for the game, knowing how to play the game, I think that's the difference to me than the way the game's being played right now. You know, I mean, you can, people can argue. this and that, but I just, you know, from my own standpoint, you know, I missed the poetry of playing the game all over the floor. And that's what a guy like, you know, Larry Burke could do. I mean, you know, if he was playing this area today, I mean, and shooting 12, 13, 3s a game,

he could do that. But that, he played the whole game. He played all over the floor. And going back to your point, I think one of the things that allowed me to, you know, good at the NBA level and the pick and roll and all the things that was because growing up we just practiced every shot all over the floor if you're open at 15 feet if you're shooting a runner at 8 feet

or you know if you were shooting 25 but you didn't have a line you know I didn't have a three point line until I got to the NBA and I think from my perspective it really hurts the development of players because you can't even go in a gym I mean I do basketball camps and you know you go

going before the camp starts. I mean, when you think it was, you know, you were going to get shocked if you crossed that line. I mean, every kid's out there

just hoist in three. You know, they don't even know how to shoot yet. You know, and they're out there hoisting the three point line. And, you know, and it's just the nature of the game now,

but threes, layups, and free throws, that's all anybody wants to do. And so, you know, from my perspective, you know, we've lost a little bit of the poetry

of the game. I mean, the sky hooks from Cream, I built a bar. I mean, it wouldn't fit today because of the analytics. I mean, so many great players and the ability to score all over the floor. And I think that's what guys like Larry and Magic in that group, they were just so fun to watch because, you know, they could post up. They were just so skilled in all aspects of the game.

How would you fix it? How would I fix it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, do you move the three-point line out even further to make it so it's such a, you know, a difficult shot like how would you fix it i don't know i don't know that you know you can fix it because it just because it's there now you know like i said i i would if i was in charge of the basketball universe you know i wouldn't have a three-point line until college just to teach kids how to play

the game all over the floor i think it was such an advantage for me because that was one of the reasons, you know, I was successful because if you ran me off the three-point line, I could do other things. I could score. I could shoot floaters. I could hit from, pull up from 15 feet. That's all because I had to do, learn to do all those things because I was getting double-teamed and triple-teamed in high school and having to shoot all over the floor and be creative, learn how to get my shot, learn how to create space. You know, I think it really stunts the growth because, you know, all kids know how to do now, shoot a spot-up three. You know, that's why it's fun to watch a Steph Curry, like you said, guys that can catch and shoot,

but also they can move and shoot it off the dribble. And that takes, you know, playing that way and being in situations, you know. I think a lot of it, honestly, Mark, honestly, a lot of it is guys don't play as much anymore. They all, everybody's an individual workout, one on cone. And yes, there's an emphasis in three-point shot and layups and runners as well. but there's just you don't have the creativity of having you know when I was a kid my dad would he'd take me to this put there's a park called Miles Square Park it's in Fountain Valley and there's nine courts and he would take me there's seven o'clock game he'd take me there and

old men would start playing whatever and he'd call a game for me make sure I got my first game he'd sit there and watch a game or two and then he'd leave me five bucks and I he might come back and get you in the afternoon and you just play all day and I do think there's a certain the two things, one you need to have that. I'm always in the gym working on, you know, like you said, purposeful practice and working on your shooting and your game. But also the feel, I think, comes from playing. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you, like, I do,

, they do, they do, they, and I'm trying to, you know, try to, you, to teach him how to see what I see, and it's really hard because, you know, the only times we get the chance to be creative, I'll just have an open, like, hey, we're just going to play today and just let guys play. And they literally don't know what to do. They don't know how to call a game. They don't know. They have almost like locked up because they can't understand.

There's no scoreboard and there's no pool play. And there's no press. There's no full court press, right? They're just, go let's just go play and play man to man and play basketball. Yeah. Or how about just playing, I mean, when the last time you saw, guys just playing three on three. Yeah.

You know? I mean, I think that's one of the best ways to learn how to play the game that there is, you know. Just three guys, hey, man, you know, spread the floor, use picking rolls, whatever, just learn how to play. You know, and like you said, kids just don't, you know, even when I was, you know, coaching at the college level, stuff that I would do, I mean, my brothers and I grew up, you know,

playing one-on-one. against each other, you know, and you'd start out with, okay, you can, you're unlimited and you do whatever you want to, okay, now you can only take two dribbles, you got to get your shot off. And now you only got one dribble. And learning how to, I mean, you do that now, I mean, kids literally look at you like, how am I supposed to get a shot off with one dribble, you know, I'm supposed to get a shot off two dribbles. I mean, learning how to create space and, you know, hey,

Head fakes, shot fakes, playing with a live dribble. I mean, that's how you learn to play the game. Isaiah Thomas is going to be made out to be the villain, and I think, you know, some of it is earned. Some of it is just that that's, you know, how the Pistons Bulls rivalry kind of ended. You know, we do talk about the Celtics a lot. Talk about the Lakers.

I don't, the Pistons are a team that they're interesting because they were the bad boy Pistons, right? Again, also during your era, That's part of why people don't talk enough about what you guys did in Cleveland. You'd guard Isaiah, you'd guard Joe Dumars. What were they like? You know, Isaiah and I had, we kind of had a little bit of a rivalry. We were in the same division, so we're playing each other, you know, six times a year.

And, you know, he was tough. He was a great, great player. Like you said, I think he gets Bill and I. a little bit just because that whole bad boy thing, that whole team they want as much as good as they were and winning in the championships, people just didn't like them. Because of the way they played and the way they got it done. But yeah, we had a great rivalry, you know, between us. I got great respect for Isaiah as a player.

And, you know, we went at it, you know, when we played. And I feel like the respect was mutual that way. you know, he was great. You know, he was another one of these, you know, undersized, you know, guys that he was, he knew how to win, he knew how to get it done. He was, he was unbelievable. How did you, how did you survive in an era? Because as much as now, you know, you can't make it as a 5, 11, 6 foot guard unless you can

switch on the guys, but there's not, you're not, you don't have the seven footers that can score the way that you guys did, right? me going to go through the piston's not as much but obviously you know the Celtics had parish and then macaille and ewing in new york and you know i could kind of go through the list of guys how did you survive like how how does a six foot guard survive back then defensively and and make it in the league what what is the what's the secret sauce there i think it's just you know a tough is i was fortunate obviously that like you said i mean that At times, I had three, seven footers on the floor with me.

So you just learned to be smart. And I remember Larry Nance, who is one of my all-time favorite teammates, a great shot blocker from the four position. I mean, he'd get pissed at me if I'd foul a guy after I got beat, you know, because he's like, man, I'm going to block it. You know, don't let him go foul, man. I mean, that's what he'd get, you know, the most upset with me or something. So I just learned to play with my teammates.

You know, I never looked at defenses. I mean, I was certainly not locked down defender, but I think I was very fun. I kept guys in front of me. I made guys make tough shots. I forced guys to my help. I knew where it was. I think you just have to, you know, be a great team defender.

You've got to know your strengths, your weaknesses. But more than anything, it's just, You know, it was a very physical game back when I played. And so, you know, you knew you were going to get hit. You knew you had to fight through stuff. And you had guys like, you know, Rick Mahorn and Charles Oakley was looking to take your head off every time he came in the way. So, you know, I think it was just, it wasn't for the meek of heart.

Let's put it that way. You had to come in there and you had to be willing to battle and fight every night. every night. Late in your career, you, Steve Kerr was your backup, and he ends up, you know,

finding a home in Chicago and, you know, hitting, hitting key shots on kind of that second incarnation of the Bulls. Was that, was that ever an opportunity for you to, I don't know if you want to say, chase one or be kind of that,

like it always, you know, they had all these shooters, right? You had Paxon and BJ, and then ultimately it was Steve Kerr. How come you couldn't get in that?

Opportunity never really presented itself, you know, through where I was at, a contract or things like that, but you know, I always had a lot of respect for those guys because that's a hard, you know. I remember talking to Steve, you know, many times because we're

good friends and we're in Cleveland. And I don't know how you do it, man. I mean, it's hard to play. Be out there for the whole game and only get three or four shots and then the ones you get you got to make. You got to make. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's, that's your job. I tell, I tell them this. I'm sorry to interrupt. I tell them this. But I think it was,

let's see here, is what he was with the Spurs in 2002. I went to an NBA finals game, game six, game six. And if you remember, he hit three threes, I think in the fourth quarter to seal the deal and win. Okay. So he didn't play the first half. And I distinctly remember because I was there and I got my first chance to do national radio for the draft for ESPN right afterwards. And that's why I went to the game to meet a guy who's the executive producer. But I remember like halftime, he comes sprinting out with he and Steve Smith, who are both, you know, old heads on that team. And he got a bunch of shots up. And, you know, he comes in the game for Tony Parker was like a rookie that year.

And he hits three big threes. and I tell people to this day, like we talk about all these other accomplishments guys have done in the finals and there's incredible things. But to sit there for two hours and not play and then come in and guard Jason Kidd at one end and then make a couple of shots to win a game is among the hardest things you're ever going to do in sport.

Like that is, and for a guy like you, like at least Steve had been a bench player most of his NBA career. But for you, that had to be hard. I understand that's a tough adjustment because you've always been after your first year, your rookie year, for the most part, you were a starter. And so there's a rhythm to it. There's a volume of shots and touches you get so it's not as form. But to sit there for two hours and then, hey, dude, you got to make an NBA three, you know,

guarded by some guy who's, you know, five inches taller than you. That's an unbelievable accomplishment. Oh, I agree with you. That's one of the hardest things to do in sports. And I tell, you know, for all the teams that I work, on, you know, I told guys, you know, everybody wants to be a starter, everybody wants to do this, but, I mean, you look at certain guys that have made a career out of being able to do those things.

I think that's one of the hardest things to find. You know, I mean, you know, like a Lou Williams, what he does, you know, I mean, coming in off the bench and, you know, guys over the years that have been able to play that role and, you know, like those guys, I mean, the way the Bulls team was set up, I mean, Michael, going to get 35 shots. Scott was going to get 20 down the road telling you know Paxton and BJ and D.E.

And those guys, they were going to get maybe four or five, you know, at best. And you never knew when they were coming. And then like Paxton one year hits a game winner and, you know, in the playoffs. And Steve hits one. And, you know, to be able to make those shots with without being what I call in rhythm, I mean, you hadn't touched the ball for like two quarters. and all of a sudden, you know, it's five seconds in the game and Jordan gives it up to you finally.

And you've got to make it. The best player who gets the least, like, you know, you were an all-star, you were first team all-N-BBA, third-team all-MBA several times over. I think, you know, you're arguably the greatest free-throw shooter in NBA history. I think people, when you say Mark Price, like, oh, he was a great player.

You say Isaiah Thomas, he was a great player. Like, you go through the list. who's the best player that you played against that no one discusses today? The guy that was really, really good and probably gave me as much problems because of his size and strength in the way the game was played back then. It was Derek Harper. You know, I just felt he was always a winner. You know, his teams always were in the playoffs.

He would make big shots when you need them. But I always felt like Derek was one of them. I actually got to be teammates with in my last season in Orlando that I played. We were with the magic together. But he was just one of those guys that had a career that most people, if you said, Derek Harper, they go, who? Are you talking about? He was one of those guys.

It's really, really good. Yeah, he was tough as hell. Obviously, those Knicks teams and played for John McLeod with the Dallas Mavericks back in the day as well. You get done playing. And what was your plan? What was your dad was a coach? And I know you started, you coached high school basketball.

You coached in Australia. Was it like, I want to coach? What was your plan when you finished playing? I didn't really have a big plan. My biggest plan when I got through playing was I had three small children. And I wanted to be around. my last four years that I played. I played in four different places,

and, you know, moving is tough at that point with three small kids. And I was just wanting to, we settled in Atlanta, and kind of were there for 17 years while my kids kind of grew up. And I kind of started getting pulled in. You know, basketball kept pulling me back in. I started, you know, shooting lab in Swanee, Georgia. started work with NBA guys, teams started sending people to work with their shooting and things like that.

And one thing led to another. And, you know, it kind of kind of got bad. Bobby Cremens brought me in. His last season at Tech, I kind of went in as assistant for him to support him. His last year, there at Tech. And, you know,

started coaching high school and just one thing led to another. I never really was seeking. And then he just kind of was a natural progression, I guess. and a good fit. What was it, you know, among the places you worked, you worked for the Bobcats, you work for Jordan, for life to come full circle, and to be working in his organization, what was that experience like? It was, you know, obviously, like I said, I don't think a lot of people knew how far back

Michael and I went, you know, people knew we played against each other. The NBA level, but as I told you, we went all the way back to college, he had teammates on the Pan American team. And so we knew each other for a long time. And to see him as an owner was kind of different just than our experiences had been together. But, you know, I think he gets unduly criticized sometimes for kind of how things have gone with Charlotte. But, you know, he was great when, you know, I was there. and Steve Clipper working for Steve and let us do our job.

We got to the playoffs and, you know, I just think being in a small market and the way he goes about things, he has the way he likes to do things. And, you know, hopefully they can get it going because I think he, you know, he's so competitive as a player you'd like to see his teams do well at Charlotte. Why did you take the UNC Charlotte? I know they don't like being called UNC Charlotte. Charlotte, but why, take me through the process of why you took the job? Well, I think, you know, the opportunity to be a head coach. I was excited about that.

You know, it was right here in Charlotte. It was kind of right. You know, I was already in Charlotte. It just seemed like the right move to make at the time. And I was excited about it. And, you know, I was grateful for that opportunity. it didn't go like I would have liked it to

you know felt like you know that it wasn't really given an opportunity to do what I wanted to do not enough time to do that but it is what it is and you know it didn't work out and moved on

yeah and and I mean but I just help me in understanding because I'm from a because it's from afar right like you're a person of Supreme Faith, you know, married three kids, like there's no NCAA issues. And considering, you know, when you're placed down on Major, he had, he had obviously

the health issues that caused him to have to leave. So it's not like you took over a program that was killing it, you know? And I guess are you left, are you left with the feeling that it was fair, right, that you got a fair shot? No. you know, like I said, I just think, like, the situation I came into, I could have used more time. But, you know, things, people have, make decisions for different reasons. You know, I really can't go into all the details, but it, you know, it was disappointing because I felt like it was a situation that,

given the time that I was excited about what I could build there. But, you know, I wasn't given that opportunity, and so you move. you move on, move forward. Did it sour you on coaching? No, no. You know, like I said, I learned a lot. I think in any situations you go through, good, good situations or bad situations, you know, you've learned from it.

I've always been, but I've never been one to get down. Like you said, I have great faith and know that God has a plan for me. and you move forward and trust that, you know, what you've learned, you'll be able to use in your next opportunity. Why'd you wear 25? 25 just kind of happened in high school. Honestly, growing up, I wore 15 a lot when I was younger, but when I got to high school, some already had that. So I took over 25. and just kind of made it my own.

It was unique, obviously, that I was actually the 25th taken. A lot of people thought I picked 25 when I played in the NBA because I was drafted 25th. But, you know, it started, you know, in high school, I made it and I just kind of kept it. I made it my own in college and just kept it all the way through. Your daughter, Caroline, is a great tennis player. What's that like to experience?

it's one thing to have, you know, Josh as a player, but it's a totally different thing to have. One, tennis is such a hard sport because there's nobody else. You can't blame a teammate, you're really a coach or whatever. It's just kind of on you, right? But to be a tennis dad, to experience that, what, what was that, what's that like? To raise a young woman who became so accomplished, but like you're sitting there and just agonizing watching in the stands.

Yeah, tennis is a different animal. you're used to the team sport and I mean and my wife was unbelievable during that process because you know anybody that knows anything about high level tennis I mean you really can't go to a regular high school you know when you're top 10 in the country and tennis because you're having to play these tournaments all over the nation and you're traveling and they're all during the week so you have to homeschool and you know my wife was unbelievable about setting all that up and getting her through. But, yeah, it was hard because, you know, watching them play,

because a lot, you know, what you realize at early ages is, you know, there's no referees, there's no umpires. I mean, these kids are out there having to make their own calls, line calls, and having to figure it all out. So it was quite a different experience going and watching, but, you know, I just always loved watching her play because she was a competitor, you know, and she was, no matter what the situation, and she had, she had such a great attitude when she played,

and it was fun, fun to watch her. Okay. What's it? Coaching your son. Give, if somebody has, if you were going to advise somebody on coaching your son, what would you tell them? Especially as somebody who's, like, for you, you're great player, right?

And like an NBA All-Star, first-team all-NBA, and I'm sure your boys, you know, people tell them how good you were, and they've seen how good you were. How do you handle that? You know, both my boys have been great. I mean, they know about me. They know, I mean, everybody tells them. And I'm sure there's some built-in pressure.

I never put pressure on them to try to be like me. I just wanted them to do the best when they could be. And as far as coaching them, I would probably, if they could be happy playing for somebody else and going somewhere else, I would probably encourage that. It just no matter what happens and what you do, I think people treat them unfairly, no matter how it's handled. You know, people want to say you're favoring your child. And I think that's always a difficult thing, even if you're not doing it. but, you know, the good side of it that I wouldn't take back for anything is, I mean, how many

how many dads get to kind of hang out with their son while they're in college and be around them and spend time with them? And, you know, I wouldn't trade that for anything. But it's not the easiest situation for the kids, that's for sure. It's tough because, you know, no matter what, people are going to. they become a scapegold in a lot of ways for things that they shouldn't be. And just because people want to look for somebody to blame, if they're not playing, there's always a reason.

You know the deal, but, you know, I think some people can do it and have great experiences, and other people have had tough experiences. I don't think it's ever the same for everybody, but it's not always an easy situation to be in. Well, when you coached Hudson at Charlotte, did you, how do you leave it at the gym? Did he stay at home? Did he stay, did he have his own place?

Like, how did you handle it? He had his own place. You know, he would stay home some as well. You know, we have a great relationship. We didn't talk a lot about. Jeff Hudson was, you know, I mean, unbelievable teammates. He basically was about winning. I remember when he got here, for those reasons.

I mean, his junior, year, he was good enough to start for us, but I told him, I just said, hey, look, I need you to come off the bench. This is why. I don't want anybody to, you know, think anything, I'm giving you any kind of advantage, things you have to deal with, and he was totally cool with all that. And all he wanted to do is try to help us win games, and he did that a lot. You know, he was just one of the, he never talk about his teammates or what somebody else was

doing. You know, it was just we were family. When we were home together, it was just, it was family. It wasn't about player coach or anything like that. But, you know, we got to practice in the games. That's really like everybody else. Five years from now, what are you going to be doing? I don't know.

I've never been a guy that looks too far ahead. I kind of take things day by day and see what opportunities are there today. you know, who knows what direction I'll be taken in five years. All right. Last thing. You are, by most people's estimation, the greatest free throw shooter in NBA history. First, what was your routine? Well, my routine was, and I think it wasn't always the same, you know, as you develop.

But in college, I probably was, I'd have to go back and really look up. but I was probably around during my college career, probably, you know, 85 to high 80s. So I get to the NBA, and obviously I get to spend a lot more time working on my craft, and I just had it in my mind. I was like, why can't I be a 90% free-go feeder? And so I just began focusing, and, you know, my routine wasn't anything spectacular. I would never go to the line before I got the ball in my hands. You know, I see guys do that all the time.

I would never. I step back from the free throw line until the rough threw me the ball, and then I would start my routine. Obviously, I would put my right foot on the dot, you know, which most courts have for anybody who played basketball. There's a little nail hole right there in the middle. It's in the middle of the rim. That's where I put my right foot, my left foot would be about shoulder width.

It would be back a little bit. I dribble the ball three times, get set, and shoot it. That was kind of my routine. But I'd done it so much and spent so much time at it. It became just second nature. And then I would start playing games with myself because it gets to be overwhelming and getting into a way. Well, it's hard to keep up with, yeah, I'm 400 or, you know, 400 and something.

So I did it in basically 10-shot increments. you know, I would shoot 10 at a time. And so if I was having to make my first 10, I was 10 for 10, I would start over, so I knew I had a little leeway. I was 8 for 10, I knew I had to go 10 for 10 to get up to 90. So that's kind of the games I played with myself to keep me focused, because I think the biggest challenge is when you shoot so many and you play so many games is, you know, during the first quarter or whatever,

it's easy to be not quite as focused as you need to be. So I really tried to hone in on that. Did you above the front of the rim, back of the rim? Like what do you, or did you just look at the hoop? Did you have a spot that you picked out to aim it? Yeah, front of the rim. I was at front of the rim guy. I tried to just drop it in over the front of the rim.

I'm not a big stickler on that when I keep. Some guys are back rim guys. But, you know, be consistent with what you do. Okay. I lied when I said last thing. Here's one thing that you kind of forgot. I brought up to a couple of my friends the other day and that never gets discussed.

Your freshman year at Georgia Tech, there was a three point line. It was 17 feet, nine inches, and you shot 44% from three. So for people who don't remember, right, there was early 80s, two years only see play, I believe, was there a three point line 179 that's inside what's now the high school line. And, I mean, that's why you have a 20 a game in your freshman year. Like, that's an easy shot for you.

Are you the reason that the ACC is like, nah, we're not doing it? I believe that's true. I've always kind of half joking. We said that with the Mark Price rule. I totally agree. That's how I remember it was they were like, this is not, this is too easy for him. Yeah. I mean, we were the first conference to experiment with the three point line.

And it was ridiculously short. And, yeah, I led the league in scoring. I beat Jordan now. And it was taken out, obviously. The year I left Georgia Tech, the NCAA puts the three-point line in for everybody. And the guy who had a great career because of it, Steve Alford, was the guy who was selected on the Olympic team instead of you. I don't want to need to bring up a beat with Alford.

I just wanted to just want to bring that up. the second you leave, they put it back in and Alford ends up benefiting from it. That's right. That's right. If I took you out, I take you out of the conversation, the best shooter you've ever seen is who? Oh, man. There's a lot of good ones. There's different ways of looking at it.

I think just from a pure, like, in-game, like getting up a bunch of, you know, a guy that is out there a lot. I think you had a lot of good specialty shooters, guys like Kerr and, you know, guys like that. Legler, et cetera, yeah. All those kind of guys. But I think I would probably put Larry Bird up there just from a game standpoint. I mean, that guy could hit and make any shot from anywhere. He was just incredible.

Yeah, and that's not even talking about his passing, his rebounding, his feel was, and his toughness were otherworldly. Oh, yeah. Mark, you've been more than generous with your time. I cannot tell you how much it means to me, how much your dad meant to me. I, you know, sadly, when he passed, it was right after coaching me and the USBL with the storm and getting to spend two months on the road to Dodge City to Salina, Kansas, to Florida, talking basketball and telling old stories with him was

was incredible experience and obviously just it was we were all Crestfallen when when he passed but he he raised a couple incredible boys and Brent was always kind to me and you've been so nice with your time please stay as much involved in basketball as possible because you guys have so much knowledge to give the world that just don't let the don't let the

some of the some of the negative ever chase you away from this game because you got you got so much to give and I really appreciate you joining me. Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate you having me on. It's always good talking to you. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific.

I will review episode three, episode three and episode four of the last dance next week. My thanks to Mark Price and my thanks for you listening to me. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is Albaugh. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1800flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination. 1,800 Flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise. Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1,800flowers.com for exclusive offers and great values. To order today, visit 1,800flowers.com slash tune in.

That's 1,800flowers.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear.

Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel

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This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean. that you need to listen to learn the hard way on the iha radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast what's up guys this is cliver taylor the fourth and on my podcast the clivert show i'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff like being an internet famous referee we're in the middle of a game this linebacker this linebacker walks up to me he goes a ref my mom

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