The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - LaMelo and the 2020 NBA Draft Crapshoot; Quick Season Turnaround; Guest: Former Notre Dame Center Phil Hickey

Episode Date: October 30, 2020

In this episode, Doug explains why the 2020 NBA Draft is even more of a crapshoot than normal, and the short offseason and quick turnaround for a 2021 season. This week's guest is Doug's former Notre Dame teammate Phil Hickey reflects on his time in South Bend, overcoming a fear of flying, his overseas career, eating reindeer, and his post basketball career in tech and growing the massively popular app Angry Birds. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest,

S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it.

Listen to the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Remember all those big dreams used to have? And then life made other plans. With a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van, it's time to bring those dreams back. Start your own business or commit to van life with a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. Now, you could win the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter mode four by four that was. We have entered the Dan Patrick show Ultimate Camping Rigs Sweepstakes. To enter, get official rules.

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To order today, visit 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. Hey, welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is the all-ball podcast, all basketball, all sports, all the time. Welcome in. You're going to really love my guest's journey. His name is Phil Hickey. He starred four years at Notre Dame.

He's an unbelievable personal story of overcoming adversity while in college. And now he's out in the world as a marketer. And if you love the Angry Birds franchise, you'll love what he's done as he's all grown up from his days as a wee youngster in Wellsboro, Pennsylvania. I want to give you a little bit of hoop stuff in terms of up-to-date hoop stuff before we get to my guest, Phil Hecky. The first thing is the upcoming NBA draft. it is in fact a total crap shoot, right? And having talked to some of these GMs, it's kind of fascinating to me on how many are like,

you know, I don't necessarily know if I have enough data. It's like one of the things that we get from the NCAA tournament that so many people undervalue is the ability to see these guys play at a higher level, higher level of intensity, often against other players, as opposed to,

you know, kind of the regular season game where you're seeing some of these one and done kids barely play. I guess it helps, you know, the couple of players that went and played overseas, but even that was a long time ago. And I mean, think about it. It's been since, what, like early February, early February, right? Since we've gotten a chance to see Mello Ball play when he was in Israel.

Let me see him in Australia. The interesting thing about Mellow Ball, and there's a lot of chatter about him. He's a he's he's he's long. He can really pass. Shooting's not good. And I think look, some of the things that his brother has accomplished, although he has not lived up to the number two overall draft pick,

I think helps him. He's bigger than his brother. He's a, I think, probably a better game passer than his brother. He better play a pick and roll than his brother. He'd never play pick and roll before he got the NBA. And his brother has made himself into a tremendous athlete.

and into a tremendous defender. And so the thought is that though Mello doesn't play any defense right now, when he gets to the league, well, he probably will. I guess. The shooting gives me pause because while the brother Lanzo has improved athletically, the shooting just hasn't gotten better. And if you look at when he played in Australia, he didn't shoot the basketball well, you know,

mid-20s from three, 30s from the field and this is the guy that shoots kind of breakaway layups, granted playing against men. But, and there are many that believe, well, listen, if you improve the shot selection, you got the space of an NBA court, I don't know, there's pretty good space when you play in Israel, when you play in Australia. I'm surprised that people want to convince themselves of that. I just, I'd be very, very cautious if a kid isn't competitive defensively at all,

making him the number one overall pick. And I think that, I think the Warriors pick is, uh, is very much up in the air. I know that guys like Isaac Akoro, who has a great kind of culture, passion to the guy. It's going to take a special fit to the Warriors because they want to win and win now.

Don't be surprised if to get an asset, they trade down or they take a guy who they think fits their culture, maybe better than how highly rated a player is. There's thoughts that a Wiseman, James Wiseman, because they need size and need length and they need versatility,

maybe, but I'm not sold and neither are they that he can help them play right away. So whoever they're picking, they're not expecting to help them play for two years, maybe even three years. Granted, what's interesting is there'll be no Summer League, but there could, and there could be very little ramp up, right? You get drafted in November, you could play in December. I'm not sure you're going to get much out of this rookie class if you're a playoff team at all. So that needs to be factored in, especially if you're,

your team like the Warriors who have great expectations of themselves coming off a year in which they kind of packed it in for a year. As for the NBA coming back early, I think they have to. They have to find a way to get this thing wrapped up to where they have the finals back on time. One, they want to be at the Olympics with maybe not all of their stars, but a better allotment of stars, whereas the initial plan was to forget about the Olympics. They need that for the business side. They also need to be playing on Christmas Day for the business side. Granted, that need to get people in the stands, and that's something that's completely out of their control at this, at this particular moment. But I do believe that the NBA needs to and will get on the floor in

December. All right, let's get to my conversation with Phil Hickey. One of the things that comes up is mental health. And it's really interesting how different we assess somebody's shooting difficulties, somebody's personal mental health. In this case, Phil had a fear of flying. obviously I've had my own kind of personal issues with depression or another. I've heard Mark Titus talk about that extensively in his book on his podcast as well. I mean, these are things that when I was playing in college basketball 20 years ago, somebody discussed, right? You had the yips or you were scared of something and you got over it and we worked with you on it.

I think you'll love this conversation. Phil Hickey, by my estimation, outstanding player, okay? Gigantic body, huge hips, big soft hands. I think had we had a little bit more evolved training program at Notre Dame, I think he would have been a little more twitchy. And had we played a little bit different style, like this to do was a center who could score in the low post. He also had great hands so he could catch and finish.

It took him a while to develop any sort of explosiveness. Some of that is because the toe injury that he suffered before he got to college. But take a list of my conversation, of a man, Phil Hickey, graduate 1999 of the University of Notre Dame. All right, let's welcome him in. He's the pride of Wellsboro, Pennsylvania. He's the one and only Phil Hickey. Phil, how are you?

I'm good, Doug. How are you doing? Good. Okay. So, um, my, uh, I think we, like, we should go back to our early days at Notre Dame, right? Where you were this giant teddy bear of a guy who everybody loved, not because you're a nice guy, but because you're a nice guy, but because your door.

room at Dylan Hall was the home of 40s at 4, right? Like I'm not, I don't know if it was an NCAA violation. And I think, I believe we've passed the statute of limitations. But what do you recall about how you became the hub for all of the, the drinking of 40s at 4 o'clock on a Friday at Notre Dame? I have no idea, but I think it wasn't performance enhancing either. I think it was just, I think we probably had one. one extra square foot than all the other dorm rooms, because I think they were about 10 square feet

a piece, and we had one that was 11 or 12 square feet. So in college terms, that means you can fit about four more people in that room. Unless, of course, they're with you because you're a bigger dude. And so you needed the extra space. You know, I think now that we're older, it's like, man, One, I do wish that they let us room together when we were freshmen. And I also wish that I was able to articulate things like, what was it like for you? Like you first, you're from a small town. You show up at a place like Notre Dame. What do you recall was like for you when you first got there?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. The rooming rules have certainly changed over the years. But yeah, showing up, it was pretty amazing, right? It's this beautiful campus. It's out of everywhere I was looking. was the farthest one away from my home, you know, grew up with a single mom. So, you know, there were those kind of difficulties, you know, I guess growing up, always dreaming of going

somewhere big and getting out of the town and, you know, to the big city. This wasn't quite the big city, but it was definitely the big, a big media capital. You know, it was just kind of raised a lot of questions, can I make it here, you know? And I think, you know, it drives down to the very first day being at Notre Dame. And I remember stopping up at the office. And the only coach that was there was coach Terry Tyler and you know he was what three years out of the league maybe at that point and uh yeah yeah you know I had never shot around in the joy center he's like oh let's go shoot a couple shots which is probably a violation at this point but um who knows with nCA rules but I remember I remember I just shooting a couple shots going to you know going to the foul line you know

taking a look at the place kind of thinking this is going to be my home for the next four years and I remember maybe the third or fourth foul shot I shot it and Terry was in a nice you know, Notre Dame Polo shirt, some tucked in khaki pants, you know, his, his dress shoes. And it hit the front of the rim, bounce straight up. He goes off a treat and just dunks it. And my reaction was like, holy shit, if this is what our coaches can do. I mean, what's NCAA Division I going to be like? Here's what I remember about Coach Tyler.

Okay, there's, I have a couple of reculations of them. Okay. One was Thanksgiving at his house. And he had like he had like a condo and he was newly married. And I remember all the freshmen, that's where we went over. And the food was amazing. But it was more like, I, that's like one of my top five memories of all my college experiences, right? Is that like we were kind of all together, right?

We had Gary Bell, who was this super loud, arrogant dude from Chicago, right? You had Antonio, and Tony Weiss who's like the nicest guy ever. from upstate New York, you from Tiny Wellsboro, Pennsylvania, me from Southern California. And like this, the brotherhood of all kind of being together. I remember eating.

And then we were like watching football and everybody like fell dead out of sleep. And then somebody woke somebody up and like, hey, we got another practice. But it was just, he was just, it was so cool.

And right, like you had a mixture of cultures. It was like my first, like when you grew up in Southern California and you play in basketball and you travel around the country, like I always my teams were always either half or mostly black anyway. Yeah.

So it wasn't like I wasn't around black people, but to be to mix those kind of cultures to me, I don't know. That was like a special memory to me. I was like, this is like, this is super cool to be. No way like practicing, especially the second time. But it was just the idea of being around coach Tyler. He was so cool and the mixing of the cultures and finding out that people eat different stuff for the same holiday.

For sure. I mean, I remember that I think that's the first time I ever had some soul food. I mean, there was amazing. and collard greens, a few other things that were that were amazing. And yeah, that was a great memory. It also felt like a refuge from, you know, being a freshman, going through two, you know, two a days and all that kind of stuff. And it just felt like a little vortex into a place where we could relax a bit and kind

of be ourselves. You went through the opposite of what me and Tony Weish went through. Like I gained, I think 17 pounds from when I got there to our first game. Anthony Weish had never lifted before. so he like couldn't shoot for like, remember he couldn't like even hit the rim on a, he was about five feet off on a 10 foot shot. Yeah, yeah. You were trying to trim up your body.

Like that's hard in college. What was that like? Man, that was hard. I mean, that all, you know, that started the summer of my, you know, really, the spring and summer of my senior year kind of getting on that process and just learning to eat differently to kind of work my body a bit harder to really concentrate on things, you know, a lot more running than I was used to. I mean,

there were a couple extra things that helped me at Notre Dame was, I failed the swim test, if you remember that. I remember that, yeah. You couldn't do a backstroke. So I was doing extra swimming laps at eight more, eight in the morning before every class.

So that helped in. And, you know, they're just the level of conditioning. But it was, it's a hard change. I mean, it worked.

I mean, they have some, you know, I was the only one not taking way. Everyone else was to remember those were the way days where everyone was taking way and then drinking these. Creatine as well. Creatine,

Preatine, Gator, Lode, and Way. Yeah, that was the breakfast. That was the breakfast of champions back then. So, yeah, so I, you know, I was focusing on that. You know, and I, you know, I don't know if you remember, but I also, before my senior year, I had that lawnball accident, which was just insane, kind of mowing the lawn outside, and it was a wet day, slipped a little bit, and the blade hit my big toe and shattered it into what the doctor said, you know, it looked like rice crispy, so that had to be fused.

so I have just one bone in my right toe. So that also helped. I had to change my diet because I couldn't exercise for. I had no idea. Oh, yeah. That was, that was, yeah, that was insane. So that was an unlucky moment. I mean, it was pretty, it was scary, actually,

because, you know, calling up Coach McLeod and the team saying, I might not, I don't know what this means. The first doctor, I look at. Okay, Phil, we got to get to the doctor. Go check that out. Check out the toes. Exactly. And the first doctor told me I'd never play back.

basketball again. So it was, you know, and then we went down to a bigger city. I think we went to the Penn State orthopedics and they're like, hey, we can fix us. It's just going to take some work. Yeah. So yeah. Well, what you should have got was you should have got like, listen, he can't do conditioning. You can't do like court conditioning. You can't run to water the way that John McLeod says run to water.

I tweeted about this the other day. I remember Coach McLeod has wear jock straps, right? Or we were supposed to wear jock. Can't forget. Can't forget. Okay. So let me kind of set the table. So John McLeod had us, among the things we had to do, we had to get taped every day. And he would actually feel inside your sock sometimes to make sure you were taped. We had to wear suits and ties on the road.

And we were supposed to wear jock straps. And, you know, after a while, I was like, no, I don't want this fucking jockstrap. It was terrible. And we used to get hype for practice sometimes. We do like two line layups and everybody, go ahead, throw it down. I'm big fella. All right, Phil. Here we go.

Here we go. Here we go in Notre Dame. And so, you know, you're going in layup lines. And Gary Bell straight at a back surgery is like doing 360s. Like, didn't you just hurt your back? Anyway, calls us in and starts checking randomly jock straps. And I believe you got caught. Is that accurate that you didn't have a jock on?

I got caught. Somehow he had heard someone, someone narmed on me. or there was a recording device in that. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream,

this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Cliverts show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or we're you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at It podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode,

with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keer Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field

and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses.

Steve Burns, Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have

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In the locker, our tiny locker room, one of the other, but not only did he catch, but he checked three or four times. He checked every part of my body to see if I was hiding it or if, and remember his moves were super deliberate

and they were very, like, kind of hard, but like, you know, it was just, it was one of the most awkward moments of my life. but I wore jockstraps after that.

I didn't want that again. I mean, it was the TSA's worth of time. You tell people, you tell people this now. And like, look, we didn't go to school in the 1970s,

right? I finished, you finished in 1999, right? Exactly. And they're like, wait, what?

Like, yes. Do jocks traps still exist? I mean, do kids even know what a jockstrap is anymore? No, I was telling my son the story. And he's like,

what are they? Because now, Because that was when, yeah, no, no, I don't, I don't think so. I don't, I don't know. Maybe baseball, a catcher might still wear something at that maybe. Gorgeous gaming, stunning streams, unbelievable bandwidth. It's another lifestyles of Gagillionaires. Meet the AT&T fiber customers winning at life with hyper gig speeds.

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is that during our freshman year, early on, and I think the first time I noticed was when we flew to Cincinnati, we played Xavier in the old Cincinnati Gardens. And you were really, really uncomfortable flying. And, you know, like 19-year-old Doug Gottlieb is like, check out Phil. He's sweating his ass off, right? Yeah. 40-year-old Doug Gottlieb is like, yeah, that's actually like a phobia, like legit fear, phobia, obviously knowing what you get went through. So we go to Villanova on January 2nd.

They're ranked second in the country. Yep. And I remember a lot of things about that game, mostly that we were going to, we're going to leave Alvin Williams. I was Guarded to Alvin Williams. You had times, you had to card either Chuck Cornigay or Jason Lawson, right? They had two-head monsters. Exactly. They had Eric Ebers,

the great shooters, like 6-5, and they had carry kittles, and they're like, all right, their weak link. Shooting-wise is Alvin Williams. So Doug, every time they get the ball down low,

you go double. Every time one of their guards puts the ball on the floor, you go help. Let's leave Adam Williams. And first four possessions, it felt like, is whack,

whack, whack, whack, and he hits three-thres and has an open two. And he's got 11 points at the first TV timeout. And I go over to Fran McCaffrey, recruited us both. And I was like,

Fran, we're going to let him get 80 tonight? Or are we going to, like, guard him, right? So we got our ass kick on ESPN 2 on January 2nd. And we're in Philadelphia. Yep. And we go to the airport.

Okay. Do you want me to tell my recollection of it, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Okay. So my recollection is we're all in our coats and ties, Parker's over the top.

And Pat Garrity, who was a sophomore, was like our leader was and like, you know, was just the greatest, smartest, nicest guy. He comes over and he's like, bro, you got to get your boy in the plane. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, Phil said he's not getting in the plane. I was like, what? So we go and we're talking to you and you're clearly uncomfortable and you're very shy at

at times of time. You're looking down. You're like, I'm not getting that plane. Like, come on, dude. We got to go home. We got a game in like three days. Like, I'm not getting on the plane. So then Hove comes over and he's like, hey boy, come on, come on.

Like the plane hadn't yet opened up the doors. So I walk over to Fran McCaffrey and I was like, Franny, Phil says he's not getting on the plane and I believe him. And he's like, you know, Fran comes over. He's like, oh, Phil. What's up, man? What's up? You know, he saw sports center last night. Got leave got turned around.

Like, ah. Hey, man. Got to get that plane. I got to get that plane. So somehow word filters down again to John McLeod. And like he just, he, I want to make sure that people who watch this and listen to us, I don't think he had a mean, bad bone in his body. There was just a certain, like, not necessarily rigid, but I don't know if he understood all the things going on for you. Like I don't necessarily know all the things that were going on with you.

Like you said, single mom, small town, toe, losing weight, fighting for minutes. Practices were like brutally, brutally, brutally physical. It's hard to get minutes. very good. Like all of these things kind of culminating at once, right? It's your mind's kind of spinning. You got grades. Like I was doing shitty in school. And, you know, like his whole thing was, he comes up to you and he's like, all right, dear big fellow. Okay, okay, okay. Hey, Philly. How are we doing it? How are we doing? All right, we're going to get on that plane. And you just like looked at him like, you looked up.

Coach, I'm not kidding. I'm not going. Oh, I feel this. This is the word of cell. We're going. We're going to get back on that plane. We're like, coach. I'm not getting that far He's like, you can all go. You got to get home. I'm not fine. And then somebody scrambled and like called your mom and she turned around and drove from like Wellsboro

and picked you up as like a four hour drive or something something crazy, right? So okay, now you go. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's basically how it happened. I mean, I think, you know, looking back at it, you know, it's a combination of a lot of things, right? I mean, I think I, looking back with a clear conscience

and the kind of lens of, you know, mental health awareness, I think that the broken toe started giving me a bit of anxiety, if I think about it, because, I mean, you know, when you're a senior in high school, you're going to do one, you feel like you're indestructible and nothing can stop you. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this bad thing happens, right? And then the combination of, I mean, losing to this day still makes me sick. Like, it makes me physically sick.

I'm a bear. I can't talk to anyone. I feel terrible. I'm disappointed myself. And we were taking L's left, right and center. I mean, that big east was full of Allen Iversons, Kerry Kittles. I mean, I think that, you know, Boston College was amazing. Ray Allen's at Connecticut, right?

I mean, and we're trying to play man. You know, the thing you mess about the Alvin story is like, we played man to man. We didn't play any zone. So we were, I mean, two games. Two games we played zone. Yeah, Georgetown both times, right? Yeah, Georgetown. And we, yeah, exactly.

But, but yeah, so it's a mixture of that stuff. And then we talked about Cincinnati. I remember we beat Xavier. I think I had some foul shots at the end or near the end. You did. You stepped up. You nutted up and hit two big free throws. Yeah.

And then we, we flew back. We flew back after that for Christmas. And I had a super bumpy flight, as bumpy as it could be, kind of where the wings are going left, right. And I remember having some books that flew out into the middle.

And I was burnt. I got off that plane and, you know, put on a smiley face, but I was burnt between all of that and that last flight. And it just carried over. And I just kept thinking about, that, you know, the whole Christmas break. And you know, when you build something up into your

head, it's very hard to kind of break it down. And, and, you know, there were, to be honest, back then, there weren't a lot of resources for things like that. There weren't help. I mean, you know, in the end, we can get to that. But, but that, I mean, that was basically your story spot on. And coach, you know, I think coach handled it pretty gracefully. My mom came. We figured it out over Christmas break. I came back, worked on it, figured it out. People were such assholes. People are such assholes, though. Like, I remember that they drove you to the Georgetown came. Yeah. Correct. And we come out, we come out to warm up and they're throwing paper airplanes at you. And I was like, and I was just like, you guys are like, because, and again,

part of it is we were friends and like, you're one of the nicest, sweetest, most genuine people I've ever met. And so like, like, it hurt me. And I'm like, hey, assholes, do you know how hard it is for the guy even to get, like, he's so embarrassed by this. And there's, you know, there's nothing. It's just, he's just afraid to fly. Like it had like, like John. Madden wouldn't fly, right? Yeah. And, but you did ultimately, even in that year, overcome it, right? I did.

I did. Yeah. Yeah. And then, like, you've lived overseas. Like, it's not just, you didn't just overcome it. It wasn't like just, I'll take one flight or just do it for basketball. Like, you lived, worked, and I think met your wife overseas, right? Correct.

Correct. So, yeah, it was important. It was an important turning point in my life. And it's like, you know, and coach, Coach McLeodd was right. Like there's sometimes to get where you want to go, there's things you got to overcome. And, you know, it was, for me, it was more of an analytical thing. You know, we broke it down. You know, the mental health aspect of things weren't, it wasn't cool to have mental health issues back then, you know.

It just everyone was, especially men where the silent kind of hold it in type. And, you know, now everybody's got seeing a, you know, seeing a psychologist or a consultant or something like that, life coach. But, but yeah, I got over. I remember we went in, you know, Skip and I went to, we went to the South Bend Airport. We met with the pilots. They explained everything of how flight works, all the science behind it, all the physics behind it. And it was pretty enlightening.

And while there were assholes that were giving me a hard time, I was receiving crazy amounts of fan mail, both to my own house and stuff of people saying like, pretty inspirational stuff. I had the same problem. This is how I overcame it. Hang in there. You'll get it. And, you know, I received, you know, it felt like I was being recruited again.

I got like 2,000 letters or something nuts. Books, books on it, you know, people saying, give me a call sometime. I'll tell you how I dealt with it. So, I mean, there was a good part of humanity, and that was super helpful. And I remember my first flight back, it wasn't a terrible one.

We took the Pistons team plane to somewhere. That's right. Yes. And then I was like, hey, this is actually that bad. You know, I had to New York. We took it to New York. We flew into, we flew into Teterboro. Peterborough.

And they would, and they would tell you like, All right, Phil, we're banking to the right. That was helpful, though. It was, to be honest, you know, right, yeah. You know, here's what's fascinating, okay? And I don't know if you know this, but if you go back before,

in the preseason, Admore White, the other point guard was kicking my ass. And I was, I was like, like, I was, I only went to Notre Dame because when I just, I thought it was going to be awesome. I liked everybody. I thought it was going to the NBA. I thought I was going to the NBA.

I thought it was going to start for four years. right and this guy's just killing me every day in practice and like everything we did emphasized what I didn't do well like I was good in the full court we played all half court basketball I can practice it was half court basketball 26 seconds in the shot clock I'd never run a motion offense in my life I'd never done and I'm just getting screened and screened and screened right and Admore White had this really good mid range jump shot like I had no mid range jump shot right every ball screaming we ran was to somebody's right hand I can only shoot going to my left hand like literally I'm

everything. So I went into Fran McCaffrey's office and I just started bawling like a baby. Like you talk about mental health. Like I was seriously clinically depressed. The sun hadn't come out in the month. I tracked it in my room in October. The sun did not come out. October, November didn't come out one time. Not one time did I see the sun. And like I was just, I didn't feel right. I felt off. I start bawling like a baby. Again, like now you'd go see a shrink. Instead, it was Fran calling me every night checking out of me. How are you? Okay. Like, I'm all right. You know, I kind of want to go home. You know. He's like, well, you can't go home, get a good practice tomorrow.

Like, okay, you know, that's what I'll do. And, you know, I had obviously my own issues manifest themselves, I think, like, kind of later on that year. But it's interesting on how, like, we were still not really evolved. And it was a very, it was, everything about it was a little arcane when you look at it now through the lens of 2020. For sure. For sure. And, yeah, I remember Fran always telling me, like, hey, make sure you stop by Doug's room and make sure he's coming. practice.

See if he's laughing. I used to do this thing where my room faced the South Quad. And I would open up the window, I'd stick my hand out. I'm not going to class today. Too cold. No, no, no. Not doing that. And then you'd come walking by with your big park on.

You're like, oh, let's go. Okay. So how would you characterize your career at Notre Dame? Solid, solid, right? You know, I think I, it was interesting. You know, did we get enough wins that I would like? No. I mean, you know, that was, we ran IT contenders.

We played with some good people. I mean, I think, you know, I ended up near a thousand points and, you know, however many rebounds and, you know, block shots and things like that, you know. And it was a great experience. I'm glad I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it for anything. You know, I would have definitely tried to plead our case to play a little bit more zone. I think that could have made the difference of three or. four wins a year. Just weird, just out, you know, outmatched athletically.

And, you know, it reminds me of a good story on that is playing in the Big East tournament one year, I got a terrible foul call on me. And I turned to the ref and be like, what was that? He's like, I either had to call that on you or Garrity, who do you think should take the foul? I was like, all right. Because we knew if Pat gets four fouls, he's coming out. We're not going to zone, you know what I mean?

But, yeah, you know, I love. I love the campus. You know, there were a lot of, there was a ton of turnover. I think we were kind of that, you know, Antonio and I sticking out four years of our class, you know, kind of the glue that kind of allowed, allowed more people to came. We, you know, we started to get the Troy Murphy's and the Matt Carrolls and stuff after that.

So, so it was kind of, it was a transition from what the early 90s were to what Mike Braves built now. But, but enjoyed it, gave me a ton of opportunities, got to play overseas. for a lot of years. So, yeah, no regrets. I'll just say this. I apologize to you. And I've done this to Fran.

I did to Coach McLeod before he passed because, and this is the arrogant me, right? Because David Lalazarian came in. He was my high school teammates, all my best friends. He comes in the next year. If I don't get in trouble, I don't leave. David stays, you know,

and there's no disrespect to Jimmy Dillon who replaced me or Martin Eaglesby, who ended up ultimately coming in and being the point guard. Yep. But I think we make the insane term. I think we accomplish all of our goals. And I didn't want to leave. Our first year didn't go well.

And I was thinking about this is this place for me anyway, but I was going to come back and stick it out. And I think ultimately, you know, that second, third year, it always ends up being better. Yeah. But I apologize to you because I screwed it up for everybody. No worry.

Shit happens, man. You know, you know, I support you. And it has talks for people who don't support you. I think it's ridiculous. It's, I mean, it's people are stupid. But, you know, you're, 19-year-old kid from California. I don't even know how you're coming from having sushi to most people

never even hearing sushi at that point in Notre Dame. You know, you're coming from warm weather to maybe the shittiest weather in America, you know, it's, it's, and yeah, it's difficult and it's difficult.

There's certain things I dug about it. I mean, there's something, and like I truly believed year two, year three, year four, like I would have just loved it. There's just culturally,

like, I'd never been a private school. I didn't know anything about the religion. You know, school was really, really hard. Like I, you know, everybody, you think you're smart because you can get an Notre Dame and you're like, oh my God, everybody here's a genius. It really was. Everybody hears. And the expectations. I remember being at the Big East tournament and

having to overnight mail my final, my final from New York because there were, there were zero exceptions on the academic front, you know. Which, which like now, like, I actually respect and like about the school. Like, even the fact that they, they could have, like, I begged and pleaded to a couple of the kids who I stole from and they could have, you know, let it go, but they were just like, no, that's just not who we are, which I, like, again, 20 years later, I totally respect. But at the time, I was like, man, that's, that's not right, right? That's not fair. And, you know, I do think that for the most part, I know that there are some part, there's some hypocrisy to Catholicism and values in Christianity and, et cetera. But as far as that's concerned, I actually

really admire that about the school. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, there's experience. is make you who you are today right and you've you've the the flying incident this incident it's made you who you are and you've overcome and you've probably become more successful than you would have been if that hadn't happened you know probably so you get done playing and what happens then yeah yeah playing at Notre Dame at Notre Dame get done you get done playing at Notre Dame coach coach calls me like remedia after season tells me he's gonna you know be replaced Matt Doherty comes in so so I'm also lost with that because I'm not sure like what's going on with this team like the team's in a bit of limbo there's no trainings you know i'm kind of practicing for

portsmouth um you know dreaming of still playing carrying on and you know go to port smith didn't go amazingly well we didn't have a really good team um uh and you know was thinking okay well what what um you know what um you know what um what's next and uh and you know i i think i got invited to the I got invited to the free agent camp for the Pacers that summer. Walk in, you know, talk about a small kid from Wellsboro, walk in and most people have their assistant coaches, Larry Bird's coaching it, Rick Carlisle's assistant. You know, you have people fighting for contracts like Austin Crochier.

That's, you know, a third year veteran still playing the freak agent camp. Comes in unbelievable in shape, just killing people. You had Al Harrington. You had Jeff Foster, who played many. years for them. Sure. You basically had the whole roster except for the starting five. So, I mean, it was an amazing experience.

There was no room for me. Not that I would have made it anyway if I was different, but great learning experience. And I also realized like, my God, all right, here's what the next level is like. So, you know, when it worked out, ended up signing in this. I went over to France for a month, pre-internet days, you know, calling mom was, you know, $10 in a pay phone a minute. And I was there for about six weeks. and they gave me 100 boxes for my meals.

And I said, all right, this isn't working. Get me out of here. They're like, oh, we don't have a... We're in France. A town called Beauvais, a little bit north of... It was a pro-B, pro-B. So they were good. And I just called my agent.

I'm like, I got to get out of here. A guy named Dave Marabella, who was a great agent. Now he's running, he's running Don Bosco, kind of prep prep stuff in northwestern Indiana now. And we go there. I come back. I'm like, all right, well, that didn't work. And that was a terrible experience.

It actually cost me money to be there, you know, and when you have no money to begin with out of college. So I'm like, somehow the economics of basketball is not working. And then I get, so it's late in the year and think about going overseas again. And then I get a call to come try out for this, a new league called the IBL, which was kind of taking the mantle of the CBA. And when played for a team called the Cincinnati stuff, coached by Joby Wright. And, you know, we had Scott Spinelli was just as a coach, Greg Horenda.

a bunch of guys. And, you know, and we put a team together there. And we had a great team. We had, you know, I think your boy, Tremaine Fulkes. We had, you know, Lenny Brown from Xavier. We had Melvin Levitt and Damon Flint from Cincinnati. Wayne Turner from Kentucky. Sumila Samaki.

Do you remember that guy? I played for the later. Sure. A while. Chris Kingsbury and Iowa legend from Cincinnati. We had a good team. And, but, you know, I hated it. It was everyone was trying to get a 10-day contract.

you know it was it we we won we i think we were 41 and 20 or something we had the best record in the league but it just wasn't fun it wasn't what i thought basketball would be um so i made it through that year decided what's next and then uh and then got a call to to go play in finland on seven days notice like hey pack your bags you got this thing you got to leave now and uh and when did that and then ended up playing in europe and really love love the experience and love the basketball is more my style in Europe, to be honest. Well, I think, well, you look, your experience in the minor leagues is anybody's, anybody who I believe, like, I don't know, who loves how you're supposed to play basketball

is the same as mine, right? Like, you just, and I tell people this all the time, like, well, you know, if you don't make the league, you go to the G league, like, you do understand the minor league basketball is the worst, like, literally the worst. Forget about the money and the, and the place you play. It's just like, it's a, it's, when you come from college where all you're doing is playing for each other and for your school. And now the only thing you're playing for is for to get somewhere else.

It goes counter to everything you know and everything you should play for. Right. Like that's kind of the. So that's the thing. Like I just, I remember being, I was in the ABA. I was in that IBL with Salina Rattlers.

Oh yeah. Before I went to Russia. That was the like the following year from you. But I remember being the ABA. And we had this unbelievable team in, and Jamel Thomas and we had all these, and we're playing against all these Derek Martin and Ced Sabalos and all these guys that just,

all they wanted to do is get back to the NBA. And it was like, they were simply playing so that the box score would look good. If you sent clips of them, you know, shooting and scoring, it would look good. Nothing really mattered. The final score did not matter.

Where to me, like, the score was all that mattered. Like, that's it. Totally great. Yeah. Okay. So, so Finland.

Yeah. You land in Finland. What city do you live in? I lived in Helsinki. Actually, where the airport is. So there's a greater area, Helsinki Vanta Espo, and I was playing in the team in Vantah, near the airport. Interesting country is already winter when I arrived in August, pretty much days where, I mean, if we thought South Bend was bad weather, Helsinki says, hold my beer, you know, very quiet people, didn't know much about it.

knew a little bit about Sweden. We had an exchange student from Sweden, so a little bit knew about the Nordics. You know, I remember going to the first day of workouts and Hano Metala was working out with the team. You know, obviously he had great career at Utah. I don't know if he was playing with the Hawks that year, if he was playing in one of the bigger European countries, but his best friend was on our team. And so there was that familiarity and, you know, talking to them and kind of learning it, but it was, it was massively different. And I learned a lot that first month on just how to play, how to, you know, first time I'd ever seen the Euro step. Just contemplating that and then I, like, how do I do that? Is that a travel? Is it not a travel? How do they get away

with it? You know, just, just, just, you know, a lot of plyometrics. The first time, you know, if you remember Coach McLeod never would allow us to do squats or cleans or any of those things. And the first time I'd done those in my life and it actually helped quite a bit, you know, I think we've learned to do that right. But, but yeah, crazy language, crazy time. basketball was kind of like a low D1, you know, kind of high D2 level, but with men,

you know, and create, you know, no flying, all bus rides to the middle of nowhere. But yeah, it was, it was absolutely crazy.

And, you know, if we were homesick going to college, the first week there was, you know, incredibly homesick. But it got over, it learned a lot and kind of went on to play

other places in Europe after that. Did you develop Angry Birds? I didn't, myself. So that is a Finnish company. Yeah, I'll fill you in quick on the rest of Europe. So after, you'll enjoy this one. After there,

I went to London. We were the worst team ever in the history of the Euro League. Oh, and 16. Which team? The London Towers. So we're in a group with Barcelona. We were in a group with Kinder Bologna that had Marco Yarech,

Genoblee, Richard Griffith, David Anderson. But I mean, the teams were stacked, but that was a big boon by the guy who ran that. I think he just took the sponsor money and barely paid anything for us. So, so that was, that was interesting. Then I went to Slovenia, love that, great basketball. Former Yugoslavia basketball fit me really well.

And then kind of got hurt my knee and went back to Finland. And that's where I did a, I was on scholarship again. They offered me a contract to do my MBA for two years and play for that team and did that, got a job at Nokia, you know, mobile phones. You get a job at Nokia. What year is this? this is 2005, six maybe. Okay, so this is after like my first cell phone was 2000.

It was in Nokia. Everybody had those Nokia little phones. The 3210. The company was hot as can be. What was your first job there? Yeah, my first job was a inbox marketing manager. So just making sure that people that opened the box had a good experience from the CD-ROMs to the pamphlets, what the box look like, all that kind of stuff. and then kind of moved into events,

launched the first one megapixel mobile phone and kind of went to the first smartphones and then worked on a little bit of N-Gage, which was the first gaming system on mobile phones. Pretty awesome. Yeah, it was, I mean, it was way ahead of its time, way ahead of its time. I have so many questions.

Go ahead. Why Blackberry die? Blackberry died because it just didn't advance, right? I mean, it was just an email solution on a device and everyone else figured out how to make that same email solution, especially as touch screens got bigger and you had enough room for your fingers. So I heard they still exist. They're bought by the Chinese and they still run some kind of things in India. Okay. So then what do you do now?

So yeah. So what I do now, I basically, after that, there was a little company, Rovio and Angry Birds, right? You know, three doors down from us, played the game, got super addicted on a flight to London. in like this is incredible reached out to them did some work with them at nokea and they were pretty small at that point and they said uh hey when when we grow a little bit and we have enough money for some marketing we'll we'll look at you when in you know met the team and and worked there for for four years kind of headed up angry bird space and angry bird star wars you know working with lucas film and spending some time out there and working with nassah hanging out at

the you know i mean nassah was totally crazy the you know head administrator nassar I wanted, you know, education, science to be cool and fun and make a comeback. And yeah, just absolutely amazing experiences. Have you ever had that moment where you're like, okay, I went to Notre Dame from Wellsboro, Pennsylvania? And I was overwhelmed that. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care which I'll say. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became. became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

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I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the... the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but yeah, yeah, literally. But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed

crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games.

And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it.

And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions.

bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keer Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. Now I'm at NASA and Lucas Films. Yeah, yeah. Jet setting from Finland to London to L.A. to Houston to wherever. Have you ever had that definitely had that moment multiple times you know sometimes you got to pinch yourself and it was a lot of fun and we're doing really interesting things and and learn everything from rovio and then two of my colleagues started a company called seriously digital entertainment and we have a game called best fiends and we basically thought we could you know learn what we did from you know because angry birds wasn't just a game it was a brand it was a lifestyle and it was the first movie movie yeah and it came from your pocket right and so we thought we could you know we could build hollywoods and that didn't come to deliberately, they just made some good decisions along the way, but we thought there was an opportunity to build that out of, from scratch and think about how to build an IP on a phone that could become a movie, could become shorts, could become products, could become a game. And Best Feens did that and we've built it up. It's kind of a, it's currently now a kind of iPhone classic game. It's a puzzle game, you know, Candy Crush meets Pokemon maybe. And we were purchased by an Israeli company last year called Playtica, and it's been wonderful. They've been great.

A long way from Wells A PLA to say the least. Best food in Finland is what? Best food in Finland is called salmon soup. And so everything there is hearty. Number two would be reindeer and lingen berries over mashed potatoes. But salmon soups... Wait, wait, wait.

Really reindeer? Like true reindeer? True reindeer, Rudolph. They always joke about it. So they cook Rudolph many ways. There's a blue cheese and reindeer pizza that you can have. but the traditional way is kind of slow cooked over, you know, in a gravy in a saute for 24 hours and then set over mashed potatoes.

What's the next big game? The next big game. That's a good question. I mean, everything is moving to P versus P and being able to talk and communicate and have a social group through that. So it's hard to tell. It's hard to tell the next new game because everyone's being the winners. are becoming bigger and the losers are becoming, you know, bigger losers, to be honest. And it's kind of like what's going on in tech right now.

So I don't know. I think people aren't investing so much in new games as they are kind of adding content and experiences to current games. Pretty amazing. It's pretty cool, though, right? Like all the things you've done, all the places you've been, and here you are getting a chance to do all the stuff with games. Like, you know, right?

Like, pretty amazing life. Oh, it's funny when your parents told you stop playing video again. playing that Nintendo. You'll never be able to do that when you're older. You've got to study. And then here I am. That's what I do all day. Can't complain. Pretty amazing. Pretty amazing stuff. Let's get together and break bread outside of this. I appreciate your time. I love your journey. And we got to do that soon. Yeah, I would love that. All right. Thanks, Doug. Great, great catching up. Thank you, Phil. All right. Speak soon. Meandies knows relationships aren't perfect. That's why they're celebrating imperfectly

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for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-arm kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed and they're off. Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes! Oh, that's a shame.

That mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Brought to you by Netsa and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forward.

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Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Well, it was great, right? I mean, he's just an interesting and fascinating guy who now, anytime you download a video game, you'll be thinking, I wonder if Phil Hickey is marketing this thing, right? I will. I will. Just one thought on college basketball, which I find to be interesting.

By the way, you can catch the Doug Gottlieb show daily, three to six Eastern, 12 to 3 Pacific on your IHeart radio app or on your Fox Sports radio station. The Orlando pod is out, the Orlando bubble is out. There's a lot of different things. One, there's the concerns about COVID. There's the testing and the protocols and different states and schools coming from different states and different sorts of travel. And there's all kinds of restrictions.

There's also, it's really expensive. Bubbles are really expensive. And though these tournaments are willing to cover a good amount of the costs in ESPN and Fox and CBS Sports trying to cover some of the costs, the fact is that there is no revenue right now for college. sports, college basketball. You're simply, you know, handing out money to have players on campus, to have all of these protocols in place without the non-conference games. Remember, those are where the small programs make the money and the big programs fill up their gym and also make additional revenues for the radio rights, for parking, for season tickets, et cetera, et cetera.

Like those are, those are big moneymakers anytime they open the gates. And without those, boy, I wonder what happens to low major basketball. I wonder what happens to mid-major basketball. And I wonder what happens to high major basketball. And as much as we think we're less than a month away from the season tipping off, like, Cal can't practice for two weeks. How are they going to play in four weeks? How's that going to happen? Other programs are without any question going to have to take a break. I mean, if football programs are missing football games and having to shut down football practices, when you got 15 kids in a basketball program, somebody's going to get sick. And they're going to have to shut things.

My guess is, and look, this is why it was smart for college basketball, say we'll start during Thanksgiving break, because almost all these schools, everybody goes home if they're not already home for Thanksgiving break, and they don't come back until whenever we start school, if the school starts in person in January. So you're already in some sort of bubble. Now, remember, in basketball, you're in a bubble anyway. Everybody goes home for Christmas break. You stay.

It doesn't matter. Now it's Thanksgiving break. So I don't know when college basketball is. starts, but my guess would be closer to December than it is Thanksgiving. I can only tell you that that seems to be the chatter. Everybody is cautiously optimistic. There is an amount of pessimism. We'll see what happens after the election if anything changes in terms of the course of action of the state and local governments. But it's really curious that we're operating on this assumption that games are going to be played in one month when, for example, Cal, I'd say,

major college conference program won't be able to practice for two weeks. In addition to which, what will basketball look like? More practicing. So I do think that there will be good offense and you will have a really good sense of what a coach is trying to accomplish. But without the games, like when you go from practice to game, anybody who's played, you know, there's just a different level of intensity, the likelihood of soft tissue injuries. Now, we may not, we won't have the contact injuries of football, but you look at the list, the litany of injuries in the National Football League, and you start to go, man, I don't know,

I don't know for a college athlete how many guys break down. It is a fascinating world to me. Last thing. I had Nate Bjorkren on my radio show. You can download that podcast. I've been Doug Outlip Show, Nate Bjorkin, and you can hear it's an amazing tale. And I think, remember the NFL two years ago? You had these copycats, anybody who knew Sean McBeyer. got a job. And now you start to see where it's Frank Vogel and Eric Spolstra, both guys who kind of came up through the ranks, Spolstra video guy,

a Vogel video guy, climbed through the ranks. Obviously, Vogel, this is his third stop, successful in Indiana, not so much in Orlando, wins a championship in his first year with the L.A. Lakers. Spolstra has been to several NBA finals. Obviously won championships in two of them with the Bronn,

and now has been to, I think, what, five NBA finals altogether? Both are really well respected. And then you look, whether it's, you know, Silas gets the Rockets job and Nate Bjorkren get the job. You say, okay, the grinders are getting opportunities. I think the difference is, and this is a good thing, the difference is that so oftentimes playoff teams when they hire a coach would hire a guy with experience, much like the Philadelphia 76ers, they hired Doc Rivers, much like the LA Lakers, they hired Tailu. It doesn't mean those are bad hires, but those are more of the traditional high. for a playoff team. You can't play in the playoffs unless you've won the playoffs as a coach, right?

How can you win a championship if you haven't won the championship or competed for a championship as a coach? I think the big change in the NBA is that you're given quality opportunities. Paceas are a good team, good team. They're not great. And Victor Oladipo didn't look healthy or right in Orlando, but they're a playoff team. You're given Nate Bjorker in his first team as a playoff team. That's a hell of an opportunity. You're giving Silas a playoff team in, In Houston, that's a hell of an opportunity. Now, are there challenges that go with it? Absolutely.

The Houston Rockets are wired for a style of basketball. I don't know if you can rewire. And I don't think you can get out of Russell Westbrook's contract. And I don't know if you can get James Hardin to compete defensively. And you got, you're working on a new GM and a new style. It's very, very difficult. But I do at least like the fact that young head coaches are not just getting the dregs of the lead. where it becomes confirmation bias.

College coaches used to have this all the time. College coaches could only get the bad jobs. And so they get to an MBA job and they, you know, do decently. And all of a sudden, you'd run them out of time. Like, well, they didn't win much. Okay, nobody wins with those bottom jobs. That's why they're available to begin with. And then we turn to the, okay, the developmental coach with the developmental team.

Now we've gotten these kind of developmental coaches that have risen through the ranks. that are unifiers. You know, they hire quality staffs. They work with the front office. They work together. They use analytics. And those are the guys now getting opportunities to go to the big boys.

And I think it's going to be fascinating to see exactly how they do. All right. My thanks to Phil Hickey for joining me. My thanks to you for downloading, subscribing and rating, and listening to All Ball. Get right to the romance

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