The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball -LaMelo Lottery Hype; Andy Katz On Kansas NCAA Allegations; Ric Bucher Talks Zion Rookie Expectations

Episode Date: September 26, 2019

This week, Gottlieb looks at the momentum building around LaMelo Ball as a top pick in the upcoming NBA Draft, and is joined by Fox College Hoops Insider Andy Katz to discuss the potential fallout from NCAA recruiting violation allegations against Kansas, and the player compensation debate. NBA Insider and Senior Bleacher Report NBA writer Ric Bucher also joins the pod on his path into the NBA media, tampering, LaMelo Ball lottery talk, Team USA's future, and if the Rockets/Westbrook experiment can work. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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You've decided to download and subscribe, hopefully rate All Ball, the All Basketball, the All Basketball. Andy Katz from everything covering college basketball will be my guest. We'll discuss the Kansas case, Kansas versus the NCAA, which is a kind of bizarre case. I give you my thoughts on it as well upcoming. I want to start with, I want to start with lamello ball. So obviously we had Lonzo Ball, who. has been, I guess, in comparison to some of his contemporaries that were drafted three years ago, he's been relatively disappointing as an NBA player.

Much of this has to do with injuries, right? Let's be honest. Injuries have derailed his run, and it's fascinating to me that LeVar Ball, who I think you could partially credit LeVar with getting him drafted by the Lakers, you know, wasn't just speaking into existence. since it's, you know, he was so profound, so pronounced in his desire to change the world that, yeah, I don't think if he was, if he was from anywhere other than Southern California and he was any regular, you know, Deerrin Fox, that he would have been drafted at number two

by the L.A. Lakers. Was there a commiseration and that magic saw a guy who could really pass? Yeah, I think timing was everything. I think playing at UCLA, growing up in Southern California, having a dad who at the time, you know, said he wanted to learn from Magic Johnson in terms of being a businessman, like all of those things made a ton of sense. But the speed by which you go from being drafted, playing in Summer League, to playing in the NBA, not having time to kind of build up your body and break down your shot. And then they decided, well, in the offseason, his first off season,

and he didn't really have a chance to continue to improve on the court because his knee was hurt. And then in his second year, he got hurt again. And one of the reasons he got hurt was because he was wearing shitty shoes. That his dad started this brand. And we all know now these were knock off shoes. All of that is, there's irony or just hysterical humor. The brand that his dad wanted to start, some creep ran off with the money. Meanwhile, the shoes were so bad that the kid got.

hurt and because the kid got hurt, the Lakers season tanked, and they end up trading the kid out of town. Like that, if that's not an American tale of 2019, I don't know what is. Meanwhile, La Mello Ball, that is, you know, his older brother was supposed to go to UCLA, and we know how that went, but he wasn't any good. Lamello Ball has kind of been the chosen one. He's a little bit taller than Lanzo, maybe not the athlete of Lanzo, but similar vision. his jump shot while funky and, you know, a little bit over to the left side of his face,

has developed more and is a little bit more pure. He still has kind of an awkward, but he's so big, 666, 67. And now he's playing in Australia. What's interesting to me as you see him skyrocket up draft boards. And it's important to remember this is before any of the kids that have gone to college have played a single scrimmage, let alone a single game. And those guys, because, you know, you're in Australia out of sight, out of mind. they will climb up the draft boards like a Cole Anthony may go ahead of him anyway.

But this is the big point is that Lamello ball changed as a pro prospect when his dad had his hands off. Went to Australia, working out with legit guys, dad's staying out of the process, his dad out of the limelight. Now, when he comes back, state side, there will be caution over drafting Lamello because how do you handle the dad? And even if he has to split places between New Orleans, wherever the kid is drafted, it still could be a problem. But I told you on this podcast, this very same podcast, that the best thing to do is if you went to Lithuania, stay away. Send him to a legit team and leave him there for a couple of years. Because it's not about talent. It's about how he's developed.

It's about how he's coached. And it's really hard to live that lifestyle in a foreign country. But when you have the immense amount of skill that some of these kids have, it can be the best thing for you. Case in point, lamello ball. I know that some people have them as a top three, top four prospect, maybe a top two prospect. The issues with his dad being overly involved and being a problem for an NBA organization still persist. The kid looks really good and really talented. I should point out the first game, they did lose by 40, although I think they've won their next two.

And let's see as the season goes on. But at first glance, all of this traveling around, all of this different levels of coaching, the higher level of competition, the kids absorbed it, and he looks like he's going to be a lottery pick. I actually think, like, this is great news for the NCAA. Great, because there are other options.

We're not your only option. You can go and play in Australia. You can go and play in the... Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down,

give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlic on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

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healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Hey everyone, it's Ryder Strong and Wilfredel from PodMeets World. And now the PodMeets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by, um, Our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show.

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And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, rec, my mom won't want you.

to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I wouldn't change you anything. Nothing. Nothing at all.

And in many ways, getting away from Southern California is the best thing to ever happen to Lamello Ball. It doesn't mean that his dad's a bad guy or that his dad did a bad job coaching him in a young age. None of that. but at some point your dad has to have his hands off. And just the proximity to your son is enough. And Australians just don't, they don't really play that.

Like, we're not doing the daddy ball thing. And anybody who coaches their own kid, they know at some point you got to let somebody else coach them. You have to trust in somebody else because this is what befell Lanzo ball. He hadn't played pick and roll basketball. He hadn't played real basketball, real defense. And the assimilation of the NBA is taking long. longer because he hasn't and because he's been injured. Whereas Lamello's played against better competition, older guys,

and now he's playing without his dad's hands on him at all points, and I think he's the better because of it. I think that's a reasonable discussion, reasonable discussion to have. Beaver's Sportsbook wants to invite you to discover the complete sports betting experience. The foundation of that experience is a massive number of betting options on nearly every regulated sporting event around the world. add on top of that live streaming of sports every day. There's almost always a live match to watch on BetRivers Sportsbook right in your phone.

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You can basically get him everywhere. He's the one and only Katzen Moyer. He's Andy Katz, my longtime friend. and incredible reporter for college basketball. Let's get to the Kansas story, because you and I were discussing this via text, and I think it's a really kind of complicated web that we have to dig through, right?

Because you have these court documents, which, again, in court, make Kansas or Kansas basketball out to be a victim, yet you have NCAA rules, and there's all kinds of other, what's your read on the, investigation into Kansas? Well, I mean, I can only go with what I read and what you read as well.

I mean, I don't have any inside information. I would say that this falls in line with what, you know, San Luis O'Lock's from the NCAA was quoted as saying earlier in the summer that they were going to sort of move swiftly, that schools were mentioned in the FBI investigation, were going to, you know, they were going to have the Inchevillian investigation. That, you know, for all the squawking that I heard from a lot of other coaches, when is something going to happen?

For me, this still is following the process of legal first, then NCAA. Everyone wants things to be faster. We'll see if it can get faster here during the season. My read is that at a baseline level, I can't see where there's not a scenario where there's not a game, head coach game suspension. So I'm going to say that as a baseline. And I think that's true for all of these cases, especially when you have violations, whether their crimes or not actual MPA violations mentioned in court. So when we get to Arizona, at some point we will. You know, you had Book Richardson, sorry here, you had Book Richardson,

obviously admitting because he's serving time. So whether Sean Miller knew or not, under the coach's control penalty, you just have to believe he's going to have to sit at a minimum. So that's where I would start. How much further it gets? is there a postage ban? You know, what happens? Is there even more further like a show cause and all that?

I don't know. And I think it's all speculation. But I think at a base level, we're going to see, you know, some sort of coach suspension. And then obviously the usual, you know, probationary stuff that will happen in scholarships, all that stuff that we've seen, you know, countless times for other violations. So full disclosure, I consider Bill Self to be a very close dear friend. He's not just a former Oklahoma State Point Guard and alum.

He's somebody that has always been completely forthright with me. I also understand that, like you, you know this. Like as much as we say we know these guys, like we don't know everything that's going on. And some of this stuff is things that we thought were happening. Some of these things are things that we thought that weren't happening, right? Yeah, and Doug, let me add, can I add one thing in that? I agree with you. I have a great relationship with him.

I would just say that by me saying a coach suspension, I'm not saying Bill did anything wrong. I'm saying personally, I'm saying that based on what we've seen with this coach control, if something happens in your program, they've been consistent with the last five years that the coach is going to sit games. So that's why I just think of a baseline that that's going to happen. I look I I tend to agree I just I don't know it's like what's the net net you know like even the suspending coaches embarrasses them but does that really do what you're trying to do does that accomplish what you're trying to do that's that's one part

secondly you know I you know there are years in which last year if you would have suspended it probably would have been better because that wasn't a national championship year this one might be do you do you hold them out of nCH tournament games or does he end up, you know, there's long been thought that Bill Self has accomplished so much as a college coach and he's so good with people that he could be, they could be an NBA coach, right? So do you chase him off to the NBA? You know, what happens there? And this is, this is also Kansas Basco, right? Like the complaint of many of the constituents of the NCAA has been the old Jerry Tarkhanian complaint, which was you get so mad at UCLA, you know,

you put, I forget, Sam Houston State, whatever, on probation. Are you going to really go after KU, who's one of the bright, shining lights of this? I mean, look, the Naismith rules, the actual rules of basketball are in a museum right next to a gym named, you know, one of the most historic fieldhouses in all of America, right? This is going after basketball royalty. And so do they pay an extra penalty because of who they are? Do you go lighter on them because you don't want to take down the whole sport? I think all of that is fascinating.

But I don't think there's, I mean, I hope, and I don't think there's truth in that. I think that no one is above the rules, no one is above the law. We're seeing that, you know, in Washington. And clearly, if an alleged violation, they're going to pursue it, or at least they should. I also think that the new structure of the importance of having outside people, because This case probably would fall into this new complex case. I may be bungling the verbiage here, but I think it's sort of a complex case it's handled by a third party.

And this may fall into that now and be one of the first ones to fall into that. And so if that's the case, it's taken out of any kind of perception that might exist for, you know, a blue blood. But, you know, look, I mean, no one likes that. I mean, no one wants to see, you know, a traditional power go through this. You know, no one wants to see the NCAA tournament or the season to have a cloud over it. You know, I mean, Champions Classic is on ESPN. You know, our former colleagues, they don't want to spend all their time talking about what could happen in Kansas.

They want to talk about the games. And so, but they may have to. I want to ask you, obviously. you have a unique perspective now in many ways working for the NCAA, but they've never, I don't believe, told you what, have they ever told you what to say what you can and cannot say? No.

You know, but I mean, let's be honest, it's like anything. You know, you have to always thread the needle, and we did the city as you can. I mean, you have to just make sure, you know, because you have rights holders with different, you know, the NFL, the NBA, you know, you just got to always check everything. And so I'm just, you just have to always check everything.

I'm very careful on when you're on different platforms. Now, I do work for other platforms now, too, as you just mentioned at the top. But that's the same thing. I work for the Big Ten network, and, you know, we're going to nuance things clearly if something happens to the Big Ten. I mean, it just happens everywhere. Okay, so Mark Emert calls the image and likeness an existential threat to the collegiate model, the biggest issue he's faced in almost 10 years on the job.

And, of course, in social media, he's the work. right he's a liar he's a hypocrite he's blah blah blah blah blah blah right there's there's nothing he could there's really nothing he could say outside of of granting people's name image and likeness the ability to sell it that would that would please anybody on social media where are you in the argument because I do feel like you and I are two of the only media members kind of docket maybe the other like standing against this wind of desired change I will just say this that You know, I don't know where it's going to happen. I don't know what the states are going to do.

I do know that there is a process within the NCAA legislative structure. I do know they want to do that process, and they've been public about that. So that's not, I'm not saying anything out of school here. I will say this, that I think this is a very valid argument. And maybe players will come snapping back at me. But I just think in general people have overvalued what is that. out there. I mean, just keep in mind, this is going to be this, if, if, if all this came into B in 2023, okay, that's when this law would go into effect. That's a year after

we expect the collective bargaining agreement in 2020 to change. So in 2020, let's assume the elite players, the cream of the crop, the Zion Williamson in the world, don't come to college. So now, you're going down a level in the likeness category here, okay? I call me a stepstick. I just don't

think there's huge value. Now, there may be some cities in America where they put a high premium on who's on the college team, even if he's not rated, you know, a lottery pick, maybe he's much further down. And maybe they will be

glad to, you know, to compensate, you know, to to do something for them. I just am very skeptical about the market. And, you know, I remember I was sitting with an NBA GM a couple years ago at the Big Ten tournament

watching then a very average Illinois and him, I said, you know, who's out here that you would like, you know, pay to see? And he's like, nobody. And look, they were, you know, good college players, but, you know, would you really pay, you know, $20?

No. You know, look, the people who, the people who, The people who go to college games go to see their team play and learn about the players. Like, it's such a, if you take away, the thing is this, they've been able to go to the G League for the last decade and get whatever name, right, likeness, whatever. No one's done it because it doesn't, you don't, you can't increase your brand value without the brand of the store. I think what Emert's actually talking about in terms of the existential threat is the entire system. Like, look, what people don't understand. is not only do players not pay taxes on the benefits that they have.

Now, should be pointed out that some players actually have to pay taxes and the schools cover that, right? So, which is a ridiculous cost. There's other things international, which I disagree with that. But that schools don't have to pay taxes on the ticket revenue they have. They operate in a tax shelter. And while everybody seems to think that Congress, that state legislatures are doing this out of their own kind of goodwill.

Like, stop it. What do they do with everything? Okay. If you want to give me on a soapbox issue, I'll go on this issue, which is that, you know, I'm with you and Docchich on this.

It is ridiculous, okay, ridiculous to discuss that they get nothing. Okay, that is, I hate that because it is so untrue. It is so much better now than it was,

five, 10, 15, 20 years ago. Okay, number one, the Shabazz Napier thing is absolutely ludicrous. You literally right now have to walk by the training table and not take any food. Okay? You do not have to eat outside of your facility because I was in Iowa last year for a game, and I was working out in their training room. they had baskets of snacks and in the cooler. Like, the players could take whatever they want.

You could have brought a duffel bag and dumped all the snacks in there. It's not just that, though, Andy, like saying food is just didn't have food was a lie. Okay. And now, of course, you get to collect the money for food and you actually spend it on food. Okay, but forget about all of that. I don't get anything. The value is in getting into college. You have two kids, right?

You know how hard this. I have a daughter going to college next year. And the fact that, you know, if we're able to make it where A, she doesn't, she gets to leave with no debt, that is. It's not just no debt. How hard is it to get into college? How hard is it to get into college? Yeah, we're very, we're very stressed right now about all that. Right.

And I'm not saying that college athletes can get into any college they want, but it's a far higher level than their grades would normally allow them to. Okay, allows them access to all of the resources within the university, both while you're there and after you're there. That has a substantial value that no one talks about. How about the case going on right now? But how about the case going on right now? We've got Hollywood celebrities and these rich parents paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to try to get their kids in school. It actually makes my point so much easier. And then, like, I look at Perry Ellis, right, who's coming back to Kansas.

he gets to graduate, get an advanced degree, and to be on staff. All of that is part of the resources that are offered to all of these Division I student athletes, which has a – you're on scholarship for life, man. Like, look, if I need shoes, if I need gear. I just call Mike Boynton's guys at Oklahoma State. I didn't play for him. You know, I wanted his job. It doesn't matter.

Like, you're part of the family. You're good. You're doing. Two other points related to that. Two other points related to that, Doug. So the medical care. Okay. So Robbie Hummel was telling me that –

that he tore his knee, I think, the second time. Purdue blew him to New York City, I think to sign a hospital, to have his knee surgery there. Now, I'm not saying there aren't good knee doctors in Indiana, but they wanted the best in the country. And so he could actually be set up for the rest of his life. So he gets great knee surgery in New York, put up in a phone meet four or five nights in a hotel, which is totally legal, okay, because Purdue, it's his player. they're paying for it, and they're getting, he's getting great medical care. You want an MRI, and you're a regular person, you've got to go, you know, to the ER,

or you've got to wait and wait and wait and wait and get a referral, and they're handing out MRIs right and left at these universities. I mean, it's just the access to great medical care. So, you know, could they get a little something? Could they get a little more spending money? Sure, but let's first of all, it's not, think that, you know, that they're not beneficial. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience

in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it,

and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely.

And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose. On my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Hey, everyone. It's Ryder Strong and Will Friedel from PodMeets World.

And now the Pod Meets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you.

I have watched some Survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was just because we? Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion in the 50th season, from the final attempts at gameplay, to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of ha-hoo. Ha-ha-hoo, ha-hoo, ha-hoo.

Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune into PodMeets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes,

hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. while they're in school. A student athlete at Kentucky, Kansas, all these different schools, they have the best life on campus better than any other student. They live better, they eat better, they have better medical care, they travel better, and yes, of course, they provide a service for the university, but don't ever tell me they don't get anything for it because while they're there, they have a better experience than anybody while they're living.

And they can leave whenever they want and go become professionals. just like every other student. And by the way, every other student brings in money to the university, whether it's out of their own pocket or post-career in terms of representing the school. It actually is the same. Yeah, I actually, look, I don't

have a relationship with Emerd. I don't know if you do. And I know that people, you know, like people don't understand that even though the NSA is a nonprofit, there's lots of people who make seven figures who run a nonprofit, right? That's a tax. Well, no, but that's irrelevant.

right now. I know. I know what I'm saying. No, no, but I'm saying it's... The other point I want to make about what you were saying about, you know, college athletes.

So, you know, my second love is tennis and my son's really into it. And so I've gotten to know some of the players on the tour that come through when we, the tournament in Rhode Island, where we live in the off season. And the college tennis players have told, excuse me,

the pro tennis players who played college tennis. Okay, tennis is a lonely sport. You're by yourself. but because they've played in college, like Steve Johnson, who played at USC, he knows whenever he wants, he can go back to USC, there's going to be someone to hit with, he can work out there, he's got a base. And it's because he went to college.

It's like you said, it's a lifelong relationship. And it's something that when you're on tour and you're around the globe and he's a USC fan and they're going to cheer for you. I mean, there's such a connection that it's all about what's on the front of the jersey, not what's on the back. Agreed. Agreed. And I think we want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And then, you know, there's other points you can go into. And this is what you're talking about in terms of the value. Like you not only those guys will, you know, it becomes pay for play, right? Where are you going to try and pay to get guys? People try and act like it's because of their name, likeness and value. They don't have a, if they had a value, then they could get money at the G League. They don't without the school. And now a sudden they have a value.

It's only because you're trying to pay to get the guy to play. But the other part is that it will, I believe, impact the bottom line for the schools, right? In that, you know, like, look, Biford Auto Group in Oklahoma, they provide the vehicles for the coaches. And they're, you know, the official vehicle provided. And there's a fee that's associated with that. And, you know, that money helps all of the other, that money helps, gives cars to the coaches, which many, by the way, the comp cars in many states are going away. for assistant coaches. It doesn't make financial sense.

But now, listen, you're going to hurt the bottom line of the athletic departments because why would I pay, you know, however much it is, $500,000 to be the official vehicle provider of the athletic department, give all these cars, get all the signage, get personal appearances when I can pay an athlete $5 grand. Now, you may think that cuts out the middleman as the fan, and that's the better thing, but that you don't actually understand the financial structure. athletes today, there is only a handful, a handful, who actually sell product. I mean, think of how many, when we were younger, you know, a lot of guys were getting shoe deals, okay?

Only a handful of guys, like literally, one hand, you could argue, are selling, you know, are selling sneakers. So to think that, like, all these companies are something to make, you know, money, it's just ludicrous. I just don't see it happening. especially in an economy that is, you know, it may be doing well, but it's still very cautious. And so people are not just throwing money around right and left. And it's not happening.

And so I think it's, yes, it's great freedom and all that. But, I mean, at the same time, I think the market will ultimately show that there isn't great value. These days, it can be hard to find and hire the right candidates for your small business. That's why LinkedIn jobs made it easier to find the people you want to talk to, faster and for free. Create a job post in minutes on LinkedIn jobs to reach your network and beyond

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At State Farm, they know it's important to ensure the things you love. They also get that everyone has a budget. That's why they have options, like insuring your car and your home, getting you great rates on both. It's a good idea to consider State Farm. For surprisingly great rates, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Call or go to StateFarm.com for a quote today. If you could talk to me a little bit about the process you went through,

and I think it's good to not pat yourself on the back, but to put it out there so other people can kind of hear what it takes. I don't know. I always look at like this. Like, what do I want? I wanted to be a WWE superstar. All right, what does it take to be a WVE superstar? All right, what does it take to be a WW Superstar?

What are the tools I will need to give me every possible opportunity I can get? And so I took the tools of acting classes, improv classes, wrestling school, everything I possibly can to knock on the door of WW. The people of the, everyone on that real world show would wear my t-shirts, would always ask me to do the MIS. Like, they were so supportive. Like, you don't get at that very often. You really don't. Listen to the MyCultura Podcast Network, available on the ewe. I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Hey, everyone, it's Dramos from Life as a Gringo podcast. IHartRadio's sounds of my culture is brought to you by State Farm. At State Farm, we know how important it is to celebrate Hispanic heritage every day. That's why we support My Coutura and invite you to continue enjoying all its great podcasts. We also know what it takes to manage money, no matter the budget. That's why it's a good idea to consider State Farm and their surprisingly great rates. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Camilla Cabello, it is amazing to have you here.

And listen, as you know, our podcast network, we celebrate Latinos all year long. So for you, what does Latino culture mean? I love my culture and it inspires me every day and even more as I get older. I feel like so much of who I am has come from. from my Cuban and Mexican heritage from the songs that I grew up listening to, to the closeness of my family. I think that as I get older,

I'm going back to reading in Spanish and listening to more music in Spanish. And it just makes me feel more connected to myself. Support Coutura all year long by listening to the My Coutura podcast network available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you live. listen to podcasts.

What about you personally, right? This has been a kind of interesting journey, and I don't know how much you've shared on your podcast. Obviously, you're part of the cuts of ESPN. I think everybody in college basketball thought this doesn't make much sense at all. But I think when you look at all the different jobs you have now, I could make the case to you, and I don't know the finances of it, obviously, nor do I want to really ask that's not my place.

I can make the case that not only have you shown your values, you to our old home, but it might have been the best thing that ever happened to you. In all honesty, like, where are you personally emotionally? Great. I mean, I, you know, I said this, I've said this before that I wasn't angry. I was just hurt. And the time has gone on that things have changed, and they're just doing the same things, at least in college basketball that we were doing.

on the digital space, you know, we were doing videos and things like that and covering a lot of games. And they're just not doing it anymore. And so what I'm doing from March Madness is great. I mean, I'm actually talking to more players. We're reaching more people. And there's a vacuum for it. I mean, there's other networks that we're doing a little of this, but now really aren't. Maybe they are in other sports.

but, you know, the team that we've got at Turner, because Turner sports runs NCA.com and all the March Madness account. I mean, they're great young, innovative people that are always pushing to do more. And in this space, you know, we've got well over a million followers on that account. And the schools have all bought in and the schools been great. Sports information directors have been great, coaches, players. So that aspect has been very welcoming. And so, yeah, I do my podcast, March 9th, 365 through them. And then, you know, on air during the season, it's Fox Sports and Big Ten Network.

And so, yeah, it's all working well. I mean, I travel more in the winter now than I probably did. I mean, I traveled a lot when I was early on an ESPN, but I'm traveling a lot now in the winter. But that's okay, it is what it is. I can't complain. But, you know, I definitely feel like the same job doesn't exist at EFPN. So I don't feel like I was replaced or they're doing all these things. It's just things have changed.

Yeah. Yeah. But still, you were synonymous with the sport and their coverage of the sport, right? I mean, before I got there and until I left. Well, I'm not that I covered you there. I know. I know. You're sneaky old.

You're like Robert Flores. It works for MLB. I tell him all the time. Like, Roblo is a lot older than you think because he's got a super young face and like a young mind. But you're sneaky old. That's what that's your favorite college basketball player you ever covered. Wow. You're going to make me think about that.

Okay. You want to think about it while I ask you your favorite. It's a long time now. Your favorite venue you've ever worked? I actually think I know the venue. Well, I will say that I do love Fog Allen. I think it's the best in terms of the atmosphere. Oh, what about Duke?

What about Duke? Mr. Kahn. Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending. Opinions are flying. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the note. breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so rapidly. up in the chase, that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about All healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway.

Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Hey, everyone. It's Ryder Strong and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the PodMeets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered dancing with the stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts.

I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was just because we? Yeah.

We'll be recapping the big conclusion in the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate plea as the finalists to a bunch of ha, who. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune into Pod Meets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee.

We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, my mama want you to weigh better. What?

Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What about Cameron Indoor and Mike Shishisky and Roy Williams? Sorry. More than the pit. Well, the pit was better early when I was there in the 90s. not talking about it doesn't have to be present day like i'm like i don't think people understand

it was great bad i mean if you want to go way back you want to go way back uh when i was covering the whack um i mean it's still good but d yu the marriott center um i mean i think of great games in there 20 000 freeman fans especially the holy war one of against utah um great venue i will say this. Another venue I've gone to more recently that I've grown to appreciate that I think it's one of the five best in the country is Mackey Arena. The way the sound echoes

off the top, the Mackey Arena. And they redid it, they kept it true to what it is. It's an amazing place. That's an amazing place. I don't think it's the best arena in Indiana. I don't think it's the best arena in Indiana. Like Hinkle's the best arena. Like what they, Hinkle

was always great, and then they redid it and made it amazing. It's not as intimidating as the pit as Mackey. But I think Hinkle brings in, you know, one, the movie Hoosiers, but two, unique architecture. It's kind of got a retro cool feel to it. I think Hinkle is better. It's different, different. But Mackey is right there.

I wish all the Big Ten schools hadn't gone. Like, I wish Wisconsin would play in their old place. Michigan State should play in their, like, Brezlin's great. but those old places, even with the obstructed views, were amazing. Really amazing. Oh, yeah, the old field house

when I was in school, Wisconsin. I was saying, this is blasphemy, and people were all pissed off at me as these fan bases do. I agree with you. I think Mackie and Hinkle are better than Assembly Hall.

You know, Assembly Hall sort of also the structure of it, the way it goes, it goes up and then out. You know, so it's like the seat. way at the top because they've moved the media section aren't great the way it's way up there. And I just think the other two are better.

I know it's not something popular opinion in certain parts of Indiana. Okay, so let's circle back, your favorite college basketball player you ever covered. Top of your head. That's why I didn't prep you for this. It's better this way. I know, I know. I will say this. In the most recent past, Grant Williams has been one of my favorites.

unbelievable young man. I think he's going to do great things with the Celtics. Just such an engaging personality. I've loved dealing with him. God, I got to think about this. Now you're going to make me make a list. There's Jimmer. Jimmer was fun.

We had the Jimmer movement, right? Yes, I love covering Jimmer. Yeah. I think, you know, obviously, I think, you know, JJ was so hated. Um, there's, you know, Jay Williams was, was an amazing player. You know, you can kind of go through your list of Dukies that you liked or didn't like. Um, I'm trying to think who else, like you would, you throw out there that were, that were guys that were just awesome, awesome.

You know, obviously Aaron Kraft. I'm picking out like all white, white guys. I don't know why. T.J. Sorentine and Taylor Copenrath at Vermont, although they only won one game. Uh, Jerry McNamara. How great was he in the, in the, in the big East tournament and for Syracuse. Keem Warwick as well who just his arms were like go-go-gadget arms

um Juan Dixon was pretty special when he was at Maryland like there's not a guy like man that's my Grand Williams is a good one what about Miles what about Miles Simon I mean we've had him on the pod he's my best friend

he's currently in Vegas showing off about how he's got a couple days off I think they're on some sort of retreat there with the Lakers Miles is awesome. Miles is interesting because here he was academically ineligible the year they won the national championship, right? So that was fascinating. Like here's

how's the guy that smart? I'm academically ineligible. I think we know the answer to that one. Danny Granger, when he's in Mexico, you covered him, right? No, that was aftermath. Who is the best player you covered in New Mexico? Well, I covered Luke Longley for one year.

I forgot he was. covered, you know, I've become friends with a couple of players that I did cover back in the early 90s. Kahari Jackson, Vladimir McCrary. Well, I'll tell you, even though I covered him during, you know, a really rough time in his life, another player I've become friends with that I loved covering was Chris Herron. I was going to ask you about Chris. Give me the best Fresno story that has not been told. Well, I'll tell you a funny one, which was when Damon Fornay, I was standing there next to these exit park.

We're about to go on a road trip to Colorado State, Wyoming. And Damon says, hey, you know, coach, you know, a little worry we've got to go to Colorado because that stuff up there. You know, they got all that stuff. He was what are you talking about? He goes, you know, they got all that stuff. And he says, you mean altitude? And he says, yeah, we got to play in that. He says, don't worry.

We're playing inside. Games indoors. Yeah. Games and doors. So every day was an adventure. I'll tell you that. I was trying to describe the pit to people. And I think what made the pit and when they're good, what makes it different is. Like, I don't actually know if there is a New Mexico.

I don't know if I know there's people that walk around the campus. I don't know if there's actually students, right? I've never met somebody who's like, yeah, I went to New Mexico. I'm a student. but what I do know is that in most of these arenas, you try and hide the old people from the TV cameras, right? Because the old people, the blue hairs, they're not getting into it, you know,

they're just sitting there grumbling if you're not playing well and they're cheering if you are playing well. You know, you look at some of the mistakes that, like Gonzaga's arena, they put the TV cameras on the wrong side, right? So that they have, they have the dog pound or whatever it is, but they can't, the kennel, that's what's called the kennel.

But you don't understand that they're standing and jumping because you only see the tops of their heads, whereas if you shot it from the other side, it would look like everybody standing up the entire time, right? The difference at the pit is all of those old people, they're just as crazy as the students are. And I don't know what, again, like, I don't know if the students are older or if there's regular college, because the student section is good, but, you know, there's, I feel like that's, in addition to the way the building is built, being in altitude, it's like the pro team in New Mexico. The idea that the old people are just as vicious and as nasty and as rowdy as the students, I think that's what makes it unique.

Well, I mean, I think there's an older fan base, you know, that obviously is very vocal. It Kentucky, Kansas, a lot of those schools where the school is the main part of town. But there are students. I've met plenty of them that go to New Mexico. so don't worry about that. Okay. But I appreciate, Doug. I have to run.

Okay. Andy, Andy, thanks so much for joining us. We'll talk soon. All right, thanks. Bye. Millions of Americans

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are left. Find your next job fast at CareerBuilder.com. Hey everyone, it's Dramos from Life as a Gringo podcast. IHard Radio's sounds of my culture is brought to you by State Farm. At State Farm, we know how important it is to celebrate Hispanic heritage every day.

That's why we support My Coutura and invite you to continue enjoying all its great podcast. We also know what it takes to manage money, no matter the budget. That's why it's a good idea to consider State Farm and their surprisingly great rates. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, I am here with one of the newest members of the Maikotura Network family. Welcome, my bro. Shoro Maridueña from the Lone Lobos podcast. And of course, man, you know, our culture is always going to be a big part of our lives. So for you, what is one thing that you think makes our culture so special?

When thinking about this question, the first thing that comes to my mind is the food aspect of it. I mean, whether that's menudo on the weekends or, you know, Sopa de Fidelio for breakfast. Like, I feel like living in Los Angeles, I am blessed and fortunate to be around so many other Latinos, whether that's Mexicans, you know, Ecuadorino, Cubano, you know, people from all different types of walks of life. Food is the one thing that truly ties us all together. Support Coutura all year long by listening to the MyCotura podcast network,

available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Where do you find the perfect developer? Well, we found her at her home office. in Prague, but you can find her and thousands like her right now on Upwork. When the world is your workforce, finding the perfect developer, designer, marketer, or whomever you may need, becomes a whole lot easier. Upwork, the world's work marketplace. 6,000-ish?

No, no, no, not even. Not even. Undergrad. Undergrad was a couple thousand. Four? Not even. Undergast four? When I was there, it was about two and a half.

I wouldn't say it was like $2,500. That's crazy. Yeah. So, I mean, it was all male when you were there? No, no, no, no. It had gone female, but the ratio was probably, I want to say, five to one. We did a lot of road tripping to Smith and Holyoke and Pine Manor. I actually do know Mount Holyoke.

I do know Mount Holyoke. It's in Hanover, New Hampshire, which is on the Connecticut River, right? Small little town. It's like 11,000 people. What was it like to go to school there? It was probably the best thing that, well, not I want to say the best thing, but one of the great things that I gained from going to Dartmouth is not, and it that has availed me to this day.

It was very valuable in going into sports and covering, you know, worldwide, globally known names, is that you weren't impressed by anybody's heritage or their name, because you had, you know, you had Rockefellers, you had, you had like the sons and daughters of globally recognized people. And, you know, if you saw, it was how they carried themselves on that campus. It was who they were as people and not what their name was or how much money they had or fame or whatever it might be. You judge people based on who they were and how they carried themselves. And so I got past, you know, being a kid from Ohio, first and only person in my family go to college and I'm going to an Ivy League school.

and it just was a great lesson in that don't be impressed or intimidated by what people have or what their name is. Judge them based on who they are and how they treat others. And that's availed myself. That's availed me. It's been of tremendous value my entire life, but especially in this vocation. Okay, so you get out of Dartmouth. You graduated with what kind of degree from Dartmouth? I did not know this was going to be a biography on Buker, by the way.

Listen, I'm going to do what the hell I want to do. It's my podcast. It's about basketball. I'm getting to what I want to get to. Everybody else just asked you like, Le Mello Ball, LeBron. You were a Kobe suckup back in the day. Then you guys had a falling out. I don't want to get to all that.

I want to get to – I got a process here. You graduated with what from Dartmouth? God forbid that I get in the way of, you. your process. Yes. So what was the question? What was the next question? What was your degree from it?

What was your degree in a Dartmouth? I was an English major with a honors thesis and creative writing. Okay, so you want to be a writer. This is like the perfect, like super liberal Dartmouth in the middle of the woods in Hanover, New Hampshire is beautiful by the cold in the winter, but falls amazing, right? So did you, in your mind? I got flown up there as a junior January 20th. as a junior in high school, got flown up on a Lockheed jet by the chairman of the

federated department stores who happened to live in Cincinnati. And my mom worked in the department store there and did alterations. And she ended up doing alterations for the wife of this chairman. And they decided, I thought I was going to go wherever I got the best soccer scholarship. That's where I thought I was going to go. maybe the University of Cincinnati. I had a North Carolina State. I had a couple other, other offers. And they decided, you know what, we think our sons went to Dartmouth. We think Rick should go to Dartmouth. And so they blazed the trail for me to get there. But we flew up, and I'm in a car, and we're driving across the campus for the first time in its evening.

and it was about 12 inches of fresh fallen snow, and I fell in love with the place instantly. I was like, this is, this place is the most beautiful place I'd seen. And just the intimacy of it and everything, from that point on, I was like, I will do whatever I need to do to find a way into Dartmouth. So you guys had a degree in career? Did you want to write novels? Did you want to write, like, romance novels?

movies? Like what was your, if I would ask 22-year-old Richard Buecker, fresh out of Dartmouth, what he wanted to do, what would it be? Novelist for sure, but the big change for me, I originally thought I was going to be a lawyer or an attorney because I had to justify the cost of the Ivy League school because they don't give athletic scholarships. I was able to earn a couple of other scholarships while I was there, but I felt like I had to justify the money that my family was spending on my education. And so it was either doctor or lawyer, and I really couldn't see myself as a doctor. And then I had an internship with Sports Illustrated my junior summer. And this was the time of the Frank the Ford's and the Dan Jenkins.

And these guys were all living around, you know, wherever they wanted to in the country, and they were parachuting in and doing these stories. and telling the behind-the-scenes stories. And I was like, and seemed to be making decent money. I was like, wow, what, like, that would be cool. And so whether it was being a novelist or, you know, being the next Frank DeFord, being the next Dan Jenkins, writing books, writing novels, covering sports. Roger Angel from the New Yorker was an early hero of mine.

Like, writing about sports in a, in a literal, in a high. literary way was was my, was my ambition, and it was shaped by a combination of Dartmouth and Sports Illustrated. And now, of course, you're big on Twitter. It's a joke. And yeah, and and now I'm working with an unforted characters, which now you, longer form, but when Bleacher first started, it was, it was, you know, aggregation and top 10 lists, you know. It's a really slides and aggregate, yeah. Although, to be honest, they hired, when they hired me and a few others, it was, you know, they wisely looked at it and there's been a number of, there's another, a number of other platforms that started at the same time,

none of which have had the same success as Bleach Report. And they took, a lot of the other platforms took the approach of, we're going to hire good writers, and we're going to put together, you know, good quality, edit. content, and that's how we're going to build our audience. And Bleach Report basically said we're going to go lowest common denominator. We're just going to, we're going to do whatever is going to, we're going to go to clickbait route. We're going to do whatever we think is going to cause people to look at our content.

We're going to do slides. We're going to do best, worst. And then we're going to do all. And then we're backwards, right? And then they're going to work backwards. And so they built their audience and they built, you know, a following. And then they said, okay, now we want to get credible. now we want to do real stuff.

And they hired me about five, six years ago as part of... When's the credibility start? Ah, I'm just going to have a mess. That's a mess of you. Okay, so what was your first actual gig? Was it Washington Post? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. So my first actual gig was...

First of all, I was still, even after, you know, the English thing and everything, I thought, well, I need to make money and how am I going to make money? And I'm not, am I going to go straight back to Sports Illustrated? Maybe that's not going to happen. And so, and everybody was going through corporate recruiting. So I thought, okay, maybe I'll go into advertising. I'll be like Elmore Leonard. I'll write novels on the side and I will, and I'll work for an ad agency. I'll be on the creative side.

Well, they were interviewing for corporate jobs. But still, I figured, let me get in, and then I'll figure my way to get to where I want to when I get in. So I interviewed with Leo Burnett. I interviewed with Ogleby and Mather, and I was thinking of... Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live there. them listen to Sports Slice on the iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast and for more follow timbo slice of life 12 and the tick tock talk podcast network on ticot welcome to my new podcast learn the hard way with me your host and your favorite therapist care games and in recognition of mental health awareness month i'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental

health field and conversations with so many incredible guests i'm talking trip fontaine ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing,

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I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Yeah. Just because we? Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion in the 50th season.

From the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of of who. Ah, ha, who. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune in to Pod Meets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Brett, my mama want you to weigh better. What?

Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm going that direction. And I've actually accepted a job with Leo Burnett. And then somebody reached out to me from the school who knew that I'd taken, had won the internship with Sports Illustrated. and they said, hey, there's a little magazine, Yankee magazine,

and they're looking for a one-year resident, editorial resident, would you be interested? And I was like, yeah. So I drove down and interviewed, and I got that offer. And so before I never got to Leo Burnett, I asked for like a six-month leave of absence because I wanted to follow this writing bug. about six weeks in, I realized I didn't want to go advertising.

This is what I wanted to do. So I did a one-year residency at Yangy Magazine, living in the publisher or the founder's house, along with like five or six other people who were put in various departments with the magazine. And that's where I started. I started writing freelance magazine pieces and wrote some pieces. I was just supposed to be an editorial assistant, but really wanted to write. so I convinced them to let me write, did a piece on the inventor of the whistleball,

went down and played him in a wiffle ball game, and that was a start. And I took all the, my half a dozen clips or whatever and thought I was going to go to New York and I was getting in with Esquire magazine or somebody there. And they all said,

you need more experience. probably if you want to move quickly, go work for a newspaper. And I didn't really want to do that, but that led me to go into San Diego and then went from San Diego to San Jose. And that's where I first started, after a couple of years, started covering the Golden State Warriors and the NBA. And then went from there to. Who was on the Warriors when you started covering him? Who was on the Warriors when I first started coming? Well, that was still, that was at the tail end of the run DMC.

So Tim Hardaway was still there. It was right about the time that they traded for. The big thing was, I got in there, I got there the year that they tanked for Chris Weber. Greg Popovich was an assistant coach for a year, then went to San Antonio, Del Dem. was a 12th man. I mean, I look at now, like, the number of guys that I got to know very early on and the positions that they've since held. It was a very fertile ground for all the relationships in the network that I've built since.

It's interesting you bring up the tanking, even going back then. Tanking and tampering, big topics. The tampering thing is what's coming. Couldn't talk about it then. Couldn't even use that word. We couldn't talk about tanking? Yeah, no. It was like you absolutely denied that you were tanking.

No matter how blatant it was, you know, Tim Hardaway had, against the clippers, had like 25 points in first 29 minutes, and then sat the fourth quarter. And we went to ask Nellie, you know, why didn't he play? And he said, well, his knee was acting up. And we went to talk to Tim. and Tim said, Tim didn't even know which knee it was that was supposedly bothering him.

Not a whole lot of coordination and communication there. As he drank at this time also give you a sense of how different things were. He had just, he had one of those big plastic cups and had poured like two 12 ounces in there. And you knew

that with Hardaway at that time, if he was a little like salty and you weren't getting anything good, you'd just, you'd kind of go and talk to other guys and you come back around. Once he was halfway into that cup, then you'd really get some good quotes from Timmy. So one of the many things,

transformations that we've seen as far as the league is concerned. What do you think of what the commissioners laid down with these new tampering rules? I think it's window dressing, and it's, you know, the most interesting part, and I don't know how much you've talked about it, or I've seen other people talk about it, But this really came up just last night for me.

I was texting a couple of executives and various people, just getting their take on a few different things. And with one of them, I asked, I said, what do you make a $50,000 fine on the bucks? And he said, he goes, I can't comment because I don't know if my phone's going to one of the ones that the league is going to randomly, if we're one of the five teams, that the league randomly checks and they confiscate our phones, like we're under orders now, no off-the-record text conversations.

And I've got to tell you, man, when I look, I mean, I know how I operate, and I don't even operate as a full-time, you know, newsbreaking guy per se. but I think of guys like Choms and Woge and like their whole lives You go to WhatsApp though, don't you? And they go to WhatsApp or what's Mark Cubans On your...

Cyberdust or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see where that goes. I mean, but guys are going to have to go to that in order to... I wonder how much of a freeze this is going

to put on the conversations, the off-the-record conversations that executives are willing to have and staying ahead of the news and all of that, because it does, they are feeling like this could be a huge invasion of privacy. And I can tell you at the same time, having talked to an owner about what those meetings were like in the conversation, there was a great, there was a great, There was great concern about this. And Silver basically said to the owners, look, we need to get something out there. We'll figure out, like, what it looks like.

We'll make it palatable. But it's important that we make a statement now that we are addressing that. So that was really what was behind this. They haven't figured out what the owners and the executives are going to be comfortable with. It was more of we just want to let the viewing public know. and perhaps the small market fans more than anything else that we are concerned and we want to address this issue, even though, I'll be honest, Doug,

I don't know how the league operates if you don't allow tampering. I don't know, and I don't think it's, and I think the small markets could be hurt by it as well, because... But that's what this is about, though, right? Which is this with the small market, like, small markets don't believe they can legitimately compete, you know, that there's just the haves and the have-nots, and they're becoming even more and more they have-nots. And they're never, but nothing's going to change because of these tampering rules.

Guys are still going to want to go to the bigger markets that can attract the bigger, you know, the bigger teammates and all of that. That's not going to change with the anti-tampering. And what happens instead, or what I anticipate happening, is that, you know, for small markets like Milwaukee, where you get the temperature and you realize, you know what, I can't, my star is leaving. So who on the market can I get so that I can still be competitive? And rather than putting all my eggs in the, I'm going to try to keep Kevin Durant or I'm going to try to keep Paul George or whoever it is, I'm going to go and get, you know, the second-tier guy or a young guy or I'm going to move him early.

I think that this is actually going to hurt the smaller markets because they're not going to be able to activate their plan Bs and Cs. And know definitively, yeah, you know what, we don't have a chance of keeping this guy. If everything starts on July 1 and it's an equal race, now you're going to find out, you know, you're not going to keep the guy. but now you're going to keep the guy so much later in the process that you're going to wind up not being able to compensate and do something else. Yes, the law of unintended consequences, right? Where the intent of consequences are to cut the tampering out, the unattended consequences are all this other stuff.

I don't understand the Milwaukee finding them, like everyone in the world knows they're going to offer him the supermax. And what's, excuse me, but what's the tampering? Like, it's your own guy. I know. You can't say he's a league MVP. I mean, I don't even know that you need to say it, but for your fans, you want them to know, yes, of course, we're going to take care of our guy, we're going to get into Super Max, et cetera. It just seems like such a benal thing.

I mean, that's your first, that's your first flag that you plant in the ground about how you're approaching this is that you're going to hit the small market team that we're, wants to give the Supermax to its league MVP. It just, it's not a good look. I mean, it just seems kind of ludicrous, but that's, if first impressions are what this is all about, the first impression is, okay, well, this doesn't make any sense. You're not addressing what really needs to be addressed, which is Magic Johnson going on a late-night talk show and making it clear to Paul George and everyone in the world, yes, we're going to be going after Paul George from the Indiana Pacers.

That, to me, is where you crack down on somebody. Not this. I'm always upgrading my car. Not because I need to, because I want to. Today, it's custom rims for my ride. Tomorrow, it might be a new driver's side seat cushion. And eBaymotors.com always has what I need. They've got over 122 million car parts, all at the right price.

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and you tell me if I'm wrong, I feel like to the basketball world, everybody in the league knows who Magic is, right? Like, you didn't really want to work that heart of the job. you know, it just, and as much as he still has very much a presence in the basketball world where he walks into a room and he's Magic Johnson. Yep.

I'm not going to say he's laughed at, but it was generally thought to be not the tightest ship in the world and one that was just, it was just bizarre, right? Like here's the guy who said, like, I don't want to show up at work every day, but I want to make all the decisions. I feel like to the basketball world, that got exposed and people nod their head and understand it.

I don't know. Do you think real world magic is still magic or did this really hurt him? Real world. You and I don't live in the real world. We live in the world of sports, right? In sports, kind of knew the deal. Kind of know the deal. Kind of felt weird, you know.

But in the real world, do you think anybody thinks differently of magic after this last bout with the Lakers? I don't know that they've thought that much about it. I don't know that this bout with the Lakers' champions. change the view on magic dramatically because I don't know that in the real world, people were still thinking about Magic Johnson in any meaningful way. I'd put him in the Larry King category of a guy who you kind of found, like, his tweets and his observations to be either incredibly obvious or dated, but you didn't look at them as you once did as, as, you once did as

like a powerhouse as a force in their particular industries. It's like, it's a familiar name. Like, oh, yeah, that guy, oh, yeah, that was, you know him from the highlights, but you didn't really know anything else about him. And so I think in the real world, it's magic doesn't carry the same, I don't know, presence as anywhere close to the same presence as he once did. I don't know that, you know, 20-somethings, 30-somethings think of Magic Johnson as some hallowed as some hallowed guy.

I don't think they thought about him a whole lot, period, to be honest with you. So one of his, I don't know, is Fita Complea, but drafting Lonzo Ball, I know, I know friends that were at those workouts. And they said, like, look, Lonzo's workout wasn't good when he was there. And they had that secret workout, you know, at undisclosed location. And it wasn't great. They thought Deeran Fox was better. And then, you know, I mean, truth be told, I know that everybody's kind of acting like Utah got this incredible steal.

But, you know, if you ask people, they'd say best workout we had was Donovan Mitchell, bar none. but Magic was hyper-focused on Lonzo. They thought he could be Jason Kidd slash Lonzo Ball. Lonzo obviously got dealt. And there's a bunch of ironies I mentioned earlier. Like, I think his dad actually helped him get drafted by the Lakers, but the shoe is a big reason why he's not with the Lakers because the shoe kept breaking down and that's what led to his,

that's what they think led to his bad ankle injury this past year. And when you don't, not out of sight, out of mind, the team tanks without him there. It's completely different. So now he's gone. Lamello now, because he's played pretty well in Australia, is moving up draft boards. I also think part of it is we haven't had college basketball.

We haven't seen Cole Anthony play. I think of the level-out. What do you think of the Lamello ball now suddenly becoming a viable top-five, top-10 traffic? I think it's just as you said. First of all, out of sight, out of mind. I don't know how many scouts are over in Tanzania right now or like over there getting the full width and breadth of what he's doing.

Supposedly a bunch. Supposedly a bunch went to, you know, they got on to see both those kids play. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. I get that. But, I mean, they've just started to what. It's not like you have, you watch them for a season. You certainly, I'm not saying that there are any scouts down there.

It's just, you know, how long have they've been. down there, what have they seen, and they've been to practices, et cetera, like there's a lot that's going to go into determining whether you're going to take Lamello as a number one pick. And I do think that that still is a factor in a negative way

because of all that happened with Lanzo and things that the Lakers have to go through. People are going to look at that not in a positive way. That's why, you know, when people are saying, do we owe Lovar of an apology because Lamello now could be, you know, the number one pick, Well, first of all, who's saying he's going to be the number one pick?

Like, it's so premature. It's insane. I mean, as you said, whether it's James Wiseman or Cole Anthony or Anthony Edwards or even R.J., Hampton, who's down there. Like, is he, I don't know. I mean, if he's the sixth or seventh pick, it's still an amazing thing that LeVar Ball had two sons who were lottery picks. That's an amazing thing.

On the other hand, are we going to make as much a deal of it if he's, you know, if he's a top 10 pick as opposed to somebody throws it out that he's going to be the number one pick? Well, the way his, I will say that he doesn't play D and that his shot selection is still questionable. I still feel as if, you know, unless those things change dramatically, I don't see a way in which he's going to be the number one pick. I still have plenty of skepticism left to believe that, you know, talking about him as the number one pick is wildly premature, not only because of the time of year, but because based on what I've seen him as a player, do. Yeah, look, my thing is, you know, I think he has played against older guys, which has prepared him for this. You know, if you don't count.

I will tell you. Yeah. Yeah, the fact that he's playing against men now. is a big plus. That is a, that, that was a smart move on their part. Yes. And I think also getting him out from the watch of his dad was a smart move as well. Like that's probably the key.

Like I didn't have a problem with, with Lithuania. I just put him on a legit Lithuanian team and train with those guys and hands off. And I think all of them, you know, they'll be all better off. I'll be real basketball. Learned to be tough and physical. Look, he's big. He obviously can pass. It feels like he can shoot better than his brother.

I don't know, you know, obviously the thought is his brother has become a very good athlete. You know, maybe Lamello kind of grows into his body some. He doesn't look like a great athlete. He looks like more just long and sinewy. But it's, it's, we do. We have this tendency to overreact. We forget that this time last year, Zion Williamson, was probably not a top 10 pick. He just wasn't.

So I actually asked you about Dartmouth. One reason was you talked about a transformative player. And I don't know why. I do think we don't use transformative player in the right way. And what I mean by that is, like, what's the definition of transformative? Causing a mark change in something, right? Yeah. And if we look at if, and so that's why Draymond is really a transformative player,

because we never thought that a 6'5 college power forward could become the best, he's really the best defensive center in the league because he can guard every position, right? We didn't think of that. Now you bring in a left-handed freak athlete who's 6-5 in change, whatever, look like a football player. Can he take that to the next? I don't know if he'd be a transformative player, but I don't know if that means he'll be a superstar.

I don't think he'll be LeBron James. I think anybody who's told you he's going to be LeBron or going to be a once in a generation pro, I think that's kind of unreasonable. I do think he has a chance to be transformative in that he's got some Barclay, he's got some LeBron, he's got some Draymond to him, and Dremont started really the true small ball center revolution, and if here's a kid who can legit play on offense as well as defense, because Dremon, most of what he does on offense is pass.

I think he'd be a great player, even if he's not a league MVP or a top five in a league guy, I still think that would live up to the billing if he's billed properly. If he changes, if he becomes the new template, the way Draymond became, the way LeBron James in his way became, and there is a connection between those two. I mean, we talk about them, they're different players, but if we're talking in the context of transformative, you're right. I agree with that.

But he can't be, like, the suggestion was if he's Draymond Green and he has Draymond Green's career, then is that a success? And I would say no, in conjunction with being a transformative, formative player because then he would be the next Raymond Green. And he's not supposed to be the next Ramon Green. He's supposed to be the first Zion Williamson. He's supposed to introduce something brand new. And what I struggle with, I guess, is I don't know what that is that he's going to introduce.

He is a physical freak. He is a physical wonder. But it still comes back to what made LeBron James transatlose. is the skill set in that athleticism. What made Draymond Green transformative is his defensive IQ and his ability, his versatility, defensively that made things different. Being a freak athlete on the level of Zion, just at the NBA level, we've just seen plenty of freak athletes, and they don't leave that mark, or they don't, they don't transform.

form the game. Like, I don't even know that you'd say that Russ Westbrook, pound for pound, has transformed the point guard position. So that's where that's where I don't... Look, I'm not a Russ guy, but he has

average a triple double the last three years. I don't know if that's transformative, but it's completely changed the way we look at stats. I would say this. I would say... But I think you're taking advantage of the way the game's changed. I agree. I agree. Look, there's more possessions, more shots, more rebounds.

No question. And he dominates the ball. His usage rating is through the roof, and that's a big reason why. And yes, he benefits greatly from the way in which basketball is played now. But I don't know if Zion's been sold to you the right way. Like, I think he has a, I don't know if he has Draymond Green or LeBron's basketball IQ, but it's pretty good. And he's a pretty good passer.

He can, unlike either of those. those other two, he can legit dominate score in the post. Like, LeBron's never really been a post player and Dremont's not an offensive post player, you can't. Right. I would assume that he'll be able to have the same sort of defense.

Like, he can legit guard one through five, which Dremont can do, but with real quickness, more so than toughness and intelligence. And LeBron used to be able to, LeBron's never, uh, LeBron's never really been able to guard fives.

But I also think he's, a ridiculous competitor. And I think that makes up for a lot. I think that makes up for a lot. Okay. Okay. I want to ask you kind of quickly. You were right on the first thing that I,

that Zion has been sold to me in a completely wrong way. Yes. Because I, all I have heard is that he's the next LeBron. He's the next transformative player. And I'm like, I can tell you right now he's not, because he's not going to come in at the same level

that LeBron came in, and he's not going to be able to play the same role that LeBron played. And when you don't have the ball in your hands, that changes everything in terms of the impact that you're going to make. And he's not going to have the ball in his hands at the beginning. I agree. But it's actually one of the things I liked about him going to Duke is that he didn't have the ball in his hands a ton, and he still found a way to impact a game at both ends of the floor, which so few, most guys are R.J. Barrett. They can't play without the ball. Ball's not in their hands, and they don't know what to do with themselves, you know?

I got a couple more for you. USA basketball. Now, look, we can call it whatever we want. You and I have seen the rest of the world start to catch up. We also know that it's a different game. It's officiated differently. It's played differently. It's different.

So we did know this day was coming. I don't know if we thought the awakening would be this great. Now Steph is committed to playing, and I'm sure most of the big boys will do it. It'll be great branding. but what do you think the future of USA basketball looks like? Based on what we've seen, I can see us going through these cycles of guys wanting to, you know, various versions of the redeemed team or what the original dream team was sort of a redeemed team.

We'd lost and we needed to reassert our dominance. And so we did. So we got our best and we sent them. And then it becomes, you know, diminishing value in. returns and guys beg off and then we lose and then we got to do it again. I just at some point, I feel as if Team USA being a marketing arm of the NBA will no longer be necessary because the NBA will be marketed through a variety of players that are playing both for Team USA and elsewhere.

And I feel as if this year was really the first step where we see a Marcassol, wins a NBA championship, Annie wins a World Cup title. Ricky Rubio is the MVP of the World Cup. And so you have NBA players that are demonstrating that they can play the game to be successful on a global scale, and the place that you can come watch them play is in the NBA. And so that accomplishes what the league really wants. And this whole – this is what I find fascinating. about the difference in the way we look at basketball in international circles,

and we look at our other sports and our other athletes. Our other athletes, we support them because they're Americans and they're competing for us. And whether they finish with a bronze or they finish, you know, in the top 10 or whatever it might be, like we support them and we love what they give. With basketball, if we're not winning gold, then we're not winning gold, then, We really don't care. And I don't even know how much we really care about the actual games. We just want to be able to say that we've won gold, right?

Yeah. And that just seems a little quaint to me that we, it's, we need to win gold, but we don't really care. We're not going to watch. I mean, we don't care. We just want to say that we've won gold. And I feel as if, look, if we just look at it as a way, of developing our young players, and we don't take it as a referendum on where the state of

basketball is and what the United States basketball scene means or what the NBA, where it stands in the hierarchy of teams in the world. I think we're past that, but I think at some point we will collectively get past that, and it just won't be the, I don't know, the bellwether of what, of how basketball, the level of basketball globally is viewed in the United States. Hmm. Yeah, I thought we should have gone back to the college players. Problem is there's just...

I'm good with that. Yeah. And but we have to have the understanding that we're going to take some else. So you almost feel like, all right, let's go out and win the Olympics one more time and then go, okay, we're done. And now it's going to be a 22 and under team, right? We're going to do it to our kids. And if the rest of the world wants to send their adults and beat us, fine. We're okay with that.

Yeah. Right? You know, we just, you know, it all started in 88 when John Thompson picked a bad team. You know, didn't have enough shooting. And they got beat by great players from Yugoslavia. And the Russians were great, but they had, you know, all this, they had the Lithuanians and everything else. And we kind of panicked and decided, all right, we're going to flex our muscles here and show everybody how great we are. And the world is kind of caught up a little bit.

it's caught up more than a little bit. And I thought Pop made a great point, or maybe it was Kobe, who said, like, look, people forget, redeemed team almost lost to Spain, man. That was a really close game. Like, again, like you said, nobody watched the game. They just like, oh, we won? Okay, good.

We're good then. We're good then. We're still the best. Still the best. America's still the best. And to those of us who watch, we know that this is their Super Bowl, that this is their style of basketball,

that they, they, and I don't actually know if they respect the way Americans play all that much. And, you know, we used to make the case, we used to make the case, well, you know, our guys don't play together that much. Like, you're theirs. I'll play on different teams in the States, you know? Right. And they still, I mean, Argentina don't have any NBA players.

They figure out a way to get silver. So, it's a fast, a couple last quick hitters here. Does the Rockets thing work? What does work mean? What, what, what's, what, what's, what, what's, how do you do? How are you defining success? I mean, are they better with Russell, what? Russell Westbrook than they were with Chris Paul.

They're not, uh, are they better. Yes, they're better. Do they get any further? No. Uh,

if you had to bet all of, if you had to bet all of your surfboards, would you bet them on the clippers or the Lakers? Clippers. Clippers. It's going to be interesting, though, because,

because, you know, those guys coming together sounds good, but, you know, Paul George coming off dual shoulder surgery. He's like never healthy. He's never healthy.

Yeah. And then Kauai, what's he play? 60 games this year? And then they have to completely change the dynamic of their team, and they're not going to have their whole team the whole year. So it'll be fascinating. Well, on the other hand, you know, how often has Anthony Davis been healthy the entire year? Correct.

LeBron James, did we see the first time where he really has to manage his minutes and his health to stay healthy? what does the rest of that team look like and who's going to be the coach of that team at the end of the year? Hmm. Doc and the fact that Doc is going to be the coach, and Doc has dealt with all of this once before to me in bringing this together and making it work. I mean, there's just a vast amount of experience, and he's got a resume that those guys will pay attention to. Frank Vogel simply does not.

No offense to Frank, who I like. When did Kevin Durant become this guy who just seems so unpleasible? I would say that he has long been that guy, but where it really turned would be being in Oklahoma City and then going through that, I mean, I would say maybe it starts with when they went to the finals. And if I'm not mistaken, they were at least one point favored. And the way, the dissatisfaction and the questions about who he was as a player, when all of that came around on him, I believe that that changed something in him. and he decided, you know what, I'm going to set my own path.

I'm not going to listen to anybody else about what it is they think I need to do to be successful. And now it leaves him with what does define success. What defines success for me? He, in some ways, reminds me a little bit of Aaron Rogers in that they both, they ultimately got to the top of the mountain. And Aaron Rogers is famous for saying, you know, he's thought about it. And after he won the Super Bowl, he was like, is that it? Is that all there is?

Like, this is what was supposed to be the be-all and the end-all. And I feel as if Kevin has gone through a similar thing. And I don't know that I think he's looking for, I think he's looking for completion and, you know, finding that his fullness of being in basketball. And I think we both know from our experiences, if you're looking to find that through your vocation, you're always going to be searching. You're always going to be thinking that there's something missing,

if that's how you're going to define success in your life. Top of the mountain has no chairs. It just doesn't. There's no chairs to sit up there and enjoy it. I think he thought he'd be beloved. Like, hey, I beat LeBron. Yeah, but yeah, but you joined the Warriors. Like, okay, but I beat LeBron.

I was better than LeBron. I guarded LeBron and I beat him. Like, yeah. And, you know, just way too apt to turn to social media, which you're never going to get the love and affirmate. You're just not. You just, you get the other part. You get the bitterness of it.

He's such a magnificent talent. Like, I had Danny Manning, Danny Manning told Bill's self. When he went in there, and he's like, look, I know, this is what Danny Manning said, who might be the greatest Kansas player ever, you know, him and Will.

He's like, and he was an assistant on the bench. And he will say to this day, the baddest motherfucker to play at Fogg Allen Fieldhouse was Kevin Durant as a freshman at Texas. I mean, that's, I mean, a guy could play.

And he did seem to play with a smile on his face. But he just became this guy, which is like, you know, in what world did he think that fans in Oklahoma City were going to be cool with them, not just leaving their team, but going to the Warriors, who just beat them when they had a three games and one league? Like, what world does he live in?

But I thought they went over the top of the cupcakes things, but what, like, what world? But you just brought up, yeah, I think you, I think you pointed out, and I was kind of searching for it, but I think you pointed out ultimately what changed and why he's searching is because, number one, Kevin Durant is trying to define his happiness based on how other people perceive him. And obviously, you never win that battle because you're always going to have people who are going to find fault with something about you. But as he was coming up, there was no finding fault with Kevin Durant. He was beloved, he was respected, he was admired far more than, then I think he imagined. And so it was all good. And then it became like, okay, but I, like,

this is how I want to be perceived. And he hasn't been able to control that. And nor will he ever be able to control that. But that's what he's trying to do, is he's trying to, you're trying to have everybody see him the way he wants to be seen, the way he wants to be seen to be respected for what he wants to be respected. And that keeps moving. Like, as he evolves, that keeps changing. It was like, okay, you know what? People are talking about you as being better than LeBron James. It's like, okay, yeah, but I want to be beloved like LeBron James, or I want to be seen like the businessman, like for all my global success and all that stuff. And it's, so he keeps moving, he keeps moving the goalposts too. It's a fascinating, it's a fascinating subject, but I think that's a lot,

a lot of it is, like, he's looking for, he's looking for fulfillment in external elements that are controlled by people beyond him. And that is impossible. That's a torturous place to be. And then there's Kobe. And you and I, we would have, back in the old ESPN days, we'd have a back and forth on Kobe. And I remember when he told you he wanted to be traded, right? Obviously, all the personal stuff he went through. and there was legit concern from people I know like, dude,

when Kobe stops playing basketball, what is he going to do? Like, he has no hobbies, no hobbies. And then he tore his Achilles tendon. And my kids were in the same school with his daughters, his two older daughters at the time. And, like, he became kind of dad, Kobe. And then he, you know,

he's super interested in the film stuff and books and all that other stuff. And now he's back in basketball with Mom Academy, which he does some stuff with and going around. parachuting in and working guys out, and he has his daughter's team. He actually sent me videos of his six favorite sets that they run. It was amazing. Like, I just randomly driving home the other day, what do you think? And I'm like, Kobe Bryant's sending me, and I was like, I like it, like a little pistol action.

This is nice. But it is, it's, but you covered the whole thing. Like, you know the whole thing. Yeah. What do you think of where Kobe is as opposed to where you thought Kobe might be, you know, couple of five years into retirement. Oh, I thought that I didn't know where he was going to channel that competitive fire. And I thought he was going to have, he was going to struggle with that as much as Michael has and, or at least did.

And the one element you bring up that I now take into consideration, and I remember him distinctly saying, like when he was going through the whole retirement thing and, uh, and, and, we were getting down the last couple days, and he and I walked out of the Staples Center one day, and I said, you know, I got to tell you, you're handling this really well, and far better than I thought you would, and he looked, he kind of smirked, and he goes, you didn't think I was Michael, did you? And I was like, yeah, I did. I did. I thought that's exactly what I thought. And this is the one thing that I had known about him for over the years. Like, there's times where he and I'd be texting about something, I'd ask him about something.

He really didn't want to get into it or get salty about it. He could be tough. But if you ever brought up family or kids, the dude became like a marshmallow. He was just, he would, gosh, he would do like whatever. He was just always responsive, and he always had that element. And so what I see him doing now is kind of pouring himself into. this other element, which is whether it's with the, you know, he's got these books that he's writing for kids and, you know, empowering young women and coaching his daughters.

And like, I see him following another vein that was, that he was very passionate about. And that does distinguish him because for all I knew about Michael, you know, there wasn't like family and his kids and all that. wasn't really a big, big factor for him. No, no, it's fascinating. And, like, Michael doesn't look great. And I know he's older, but he doesn't, you know, he just doesn't look great.

Whereas Kobe, granted, still young, whatever, Kobe works out at 4 o'clock in the morning, every morning, you know, and he still looks like he could play. And I'll tell you this, I probably shouldn't give this way, because Kobe claims he'll come on my podcast. I don't know if he'll say it. But he told me, he's like, look, I'm just going to tell you, I can beat Michael at psychological warfare. And I go, I was like, how are you going to beat Michael Jordan at psychological war?

He's like, you know he wasn't his dad's favorite son. And I was like, what? He goes, no, he's like, you know, his brother Jeff was like six feet tall. His dad, because he didn't get the gifts that Michael got, like, he always was over the top. He's like, I'd use that. I was like, you'd use that? he's like, I'd use anything. It's full-scale psychological warfare.

Like, he's a fascinating, fascinating, dude. Fascinating. And I know that you've experienced the good, the bad, all of the craziness, but you do know that he is crazy smart. And as you pointed out, like, he has soaked himself into this world of, he has all girls now, you know,

and into bringing them up. And it's an amazing thing to know and see. Hey, man, you've been more than gracious with your time. I do appreciate it. Of course, you can check out his podcast, wherever podcasts are available, or the Scal. With Scow and Friends, that was called, the new one? Scow and Pals.

Scal and Pals. I love Scal. We're a great dude. Duke, I want to come on yours at some point, and I do, we need to do this again and talk music. I have a music question to ask you on a radio show. But in the meantime, thanks for joining us. You got it. All right, that's it for All Ball.

My sincere appreciation to Andy Katz for joining us. Make sure to check out his NCAA podcast. He covers all things college basketball, does some tennis as well. Follow him on Twitter. And next week, we'll take some questions. We'll get you ready for college and NBA hoop. I always give you the best guests, the best basketball discussion that there is on podcast. Remember to listen to the Doug Gottlieb show daily, 3 to 6 Eastern Time, 12 to 3 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, the IHeart Radio app, or whatever serious X-M channel you listen to to get Dan Patrick.

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