The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - 'Last Dance' Last Thoughts; Former Western Michigan HC Steve Hawkins on Coaching, John Wooden Relationship

Episode Date: May 21, 2020

In this episode, Doug gives his final thoughts on The Last Dance, including Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant's complaints about the doc. This week's guest is former Western Michigan Head Coach Steve Hawkins, who reflects on his time coaching the Broncos, what's next, and one of his first jobs driving legendary UCLA coach John Wooden around. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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My man, Steve Hawkins, is going to join us a long time. 20 years. He was a coach, 17 years, the head coach at Western Michigan. was relieved of his duties in March, actually during or right before quarantine. He's going to join us. Kind of reflect on his time getting to know the late great John Wooden

and what his run was like at Western Michigan. I want to give you a couple thoughts, though, on the last, last dance. First thing is this. Can we stop with the Scotty Pippin was made to look bad? Scottie Pippen was actually, I think, made to look good. He was made to look like his contract. was terrible. He was made to look like he was a warrior at the end when they won the title and he was playing with the bad back and that he was the one who had the class, class to say Jerry,

Jerry Krauss was the greatest general manager of all time. So those parts made him look good. Some of it, you know, his own words were, you know, did that. But the only negative parts were real stories. I'm sorry, he was the guy who was considered soft. He did have the migraine against the Pistons in game seven. He was the one who refused to go in the game in 94. And look, when they asked him about it, he said, I wish it didn't happen, but I would do it again. No one made him say that.

No one, this is not Michael Jordan calling him out. And when Jordan did call him out for being selfish, he was being selfish. Jordan also said that he's the greatest teammate he's ever had and there would be no Jordan without Pippin. Like, what are we supposed to do? Like, what kind of does he? documentary did you want? Is it a perfect, you know, even middle of the road, not taking any side

documentary? No, it's not. It's not. And I told you it wouldn't be. But Scotty Pippin is not to make it look like anything other than Scotty Pippin. And much like Horace Grant, he got a huge paycheck when he left town. That's what championships do. I think that's really the part that has changed in the NBA. For the most part, guys who got rich got rich, got rich. which after they won a title. That's why Jordan's mentality was it was all worth it to finally win, right? To go all in to win because he was never making a bunch of money in his NBA salary.

He's all on endorsements. He didn't get any endorsements unless you won something. That changed after he left because of what they built and because of what the new CBA looked like. And so now, guys, they make so much money that if they lose, it hurts them, especially the real competitors, it hurts them. But it is not as devastating to their livelihood and their long-term financial. financial success.

That I think is the biggest change. And do I think Jordan didn't snitch on anybody for the cocaine, weed, and women of his first NBA team? He didn't name any names. Orlando Woolridge was on the team. We all know he was in that room, right? No one, that's not a surprise. These are not breaking stories.

The Horace Grant thing, he thought Horace Grant was to snitch. But it wasn't like they didn't give Horace Grant a chance to reply and respond. Of course they did. we just don't believe him because well why would you be friends with the writer the writer's writing a book and all of a sudden you won't talk to the writer stop it stop it I loved it though

it reminded me of just how good the NBA was back then and I hope we can get back to that place. In regards to Horace Grant I mean I liked Horace Grant in their first run I don't know if he was the snitch you know I don't do I think he was a source

absolutely he even said he had a long relationship with Sam Smith, the writer. So he has a long relationship. Sam Smith writes a book. You don't think any of the, none of the stuff came from Horst Grant? Come on. I was born a night last night.

And Jordan has the ability to compartmentalize. Like, you can be a snitch and not be a horrible teammate. For Pippin, you can be selfish and not be a horrible teammate. I think that's what he means. And if you think Jordan's too harsh on a guy who he played with, keep in mind that even though he got paid and he got a huge contract, Horst Grant went to play for a division rival, a team that ultimately vanquished Michael Jordan in the NBA playoffs

when he just came out from baseball in 95. So Jordan, who's competitive as hell with his own teammates, let alone his opposition, you don't think that if one of his teammates left mid-career and went to an opposition he played in the playoffs, that he would have something for him? Of course he would. Why? Because that's Michael Jordan. Look, I like the documentary.

Was it perfect? No, did it miss some things? Sure. But guys are acting like no one got in a fight and practice. Like, or that Jordan was a bully or I don't know. Or that he shouldn't have said, you know, bitch, fuck you to Larry Bird. What, are we all supposed to be saints? Nobody speaks this way?

Not the sport I know. The sport I know that even your friends, you can call the B word to. I play with the guy Brett Robish. Dave, his dad, played in the NBA. It was a great player at Kansas. And Brett used to score. And I'd be like, good bucket, Brett. He was like, yeah, you bitch, give me the ball some more.

Come on, bitch. Stop being scared. Give me the ball. Right. Like, this is in the middle of the game. When I played in Russia, I had a couple teammates. And literally, the first word out of their mouth was blet. Where you going, blet?

What you're doing, blet? What you eat, blet? Which is blet is bitch. That's what they would do. I don't. This is one of those. hey, I understand you think you're looking at people who are like you and talk like you, but they aren't.

They absolutely aren't. They're not wired like you. Jordan definitely isn't wired like you. How Jordan's not wired like me? And that's okay. But his purely driven competitiveness based upon success being measured by if you win or lose, he's a success. And I loved hearing every minute of it.

I was fascinated by it. I can't believe that the Jazz didn't just outright double team in once it crossed half court. And we've had to call a timeout. Why did you have to call a timeout? Why don't you have a signal for? If Michael's isolate the end of the game, we're automatically doubling. Let's just make somebody else beat us. Scotty Pippen can't move.

Dennis Robin can't make anything other than a layup. Let's make somebody else beat us. And conversely, at the offensive end, on the Malone turnover, that was actually mostly on John Stockton. Back in the old days of the NBA, where you had to clear the paint to follow your guy. to stay within a couple feet of your guy. John Stockton was only being pressured by Steve Kerr. Let's not act like it's Michael Cooper or some freak defensive athlete. Right.

So you're dribbling the ball up to court. You're John Stockton. Take your time. Take a look. Wait till Jordan clears before you feed the ball in the post. He didn't. Malone played soft and got the ball stolen from him. That's how it happened.

I think that one other part that's missed from the talk of the Bulls management and even Horace Grant or whatever. Look at the contracts that Horace Grant signed a huge contract. He was one of the top five players in the NBA for the next couple of years after leaving the Bulls. And obviously, Scotty Pippen made like $100 million after leaving the Bulls. And I understand that the Bulls look cheap. All you have to do is research what Jerry Krause apparently wrote in an unfinished memoir that he was writing. And I tweeted it out.

Essentially, it's this. Like, one, they met after the season in 98. And after the season in 98, they had all the doctors, all the medical people, front office people, whatever, tried to assess things. Like, look, Luke Longley's done. Phoenix offered him a five-year deal. Three years later, I think he was out of the league. He just wasn't moving the same.

Now, is a center replaceable? Sure. Sure. Dennis Rodman was done. He played two more years of two different teams, Lakers and Mavericks, but he was washed. So now you've got to replace those two players. you'd have to beg and plead Pippin. And though Pippin played all 50 games after the lockout short and season and played 40 minutes a game, one, he was never really the same.

And two, and this is maybe most important, the information they had at the time, not only was Pippin ticked and wanted to be paid really, really well, and it would have taken a lot of cajoling. Also considered that Pippin had surgery, had surgery two consecutive years. Like his body was, then he hurts his back, you know, in the play. Hurts his back in the playoffs, had ankle surgery the year before. So are you going to sign huge money, just pay a bunch of money to Scotty Pippen when you don't know of his health status? And then he had Jordan and I don't know how people remember, remember he cut his finger, look at his retirement thing, his right index finger.

He cut badly on a cigar cutter. Like, that's an all-timer, right? Got in a cigar cutter. But he did. So we look at it like the Bulls would just, Ron Harper was basically. basically washed up. We make Steve Kerr out to be, and Kerr is an incredible leader,

an incredible player. But he never started a game for the Bulls. Like, he was just a shooter off the bench to fit with what they did. So I think they left at the perfect time. I just do. Would you have rather them getting beaten in the playoffs? This is like a, Jordan is basically the boxer that says, I want to go out in my sword.

You know, don't throw in the towel. I want you to beat, knock me out. And you're like, you know what? You've had enough. And oh, yeah, by the way, you go out as the best player, hitting the game winning shot on the road. You know, good night, drive home safely. I think it ended perfectly.

Was the documentary the greatest documentary we've ever seen? No. Was it entertaining? Absolutely. Did I learn something? Sure. And there's some things to emulate there. Look, let me just kind of sum up the last dance.

First, in terms of the game action, I still can't believe that Utah didn't do. double team Jordan. Like I just, I can't believe it. You know, rule number one in basketball, make somebody else beat you. Yes, Steve Kerr hit the shot in the previous year. Okay. Now, in this particular year, you had Dennis Robin, couldn't score if you locked him in the gym. Scotty Pippen couldn't move. Obviously, it was really smart that out of the timeout, you had, you know, even defensively, remember, the Bulls had gone small. They had Rodman, but then they had Koo coach and Kerr, Jordan, and Pippin.

Which, by the way, if anybody wants to argue how the Bulls would be today, they'd be awesome because that would be their small ball lineup. And Robin was an unbelievable defensive player. Couldn't score, but could pass, dribble handoff, could do all that stuff. They'd be fine. They'd be absolutely fine. And you'd have to think that Kookech and Kerr and Jordan and Pippin would extend their range and shoot at a higher percentage.

It was interesting to watch those guys before game six take, you know, what looked like 30-foot threes, and they were all casting them instead of shooting the basketball. Like, it's really remarkable how guys have improved their range. Even over the last five to 10 years, that's the Steph Curry effect more than anything. Now, Damien Liller, famous for his range, his ability to shoot shots, you know, step inside mid-court. It's crazy. But I can't believe that they didn't make Scotty Pippen beat you with a jump shot. Tell me the jump shot that Scottie Pippen made to win a big playoff game.

And he's got a bad back. Like, are you, that's fucking coaching. malpractice. Make Scotty Pippen beat you. Make Dennis Rodman beat you. This is basketball 101. I still, I can't believe it. I also thought Stockton, you know, didn't read the defense and it was at least partially his fault. And you got to wait until Jordan clears. Remember the old, you know, illegal defense, illegal defensive rules. You got, you can, there was no, there was no, uh, five second count dribbling the basketball. You, you can hold the hand of Steve occur so he can't reach in there.

You can actually grab his hand. You wait till he's open. You wait till he clears and then you feed the basketball. And then you either cut through or wait and just spot up and wait. But he didn't. He kind of got rid of it quick. I didn't think it reflected well on Stockton. Now Stockton also got a good look out of the timeout in the last play.

And Robin was late to close on a switch. There was some basketball analysis stuff that I thought was missed there. That was kind of disappointed in. Bum didn't get to talk to Talk to Tech's winner. Didn't talk to Peter. Vessie was weird. But I thought, you know, all the guys who were in the stories, most of them got to speak and defend themselves with the exception of Jerry Krause, who, look, it's a complicated legacy.

It really is. And, you know, though there are, there have been other dynasties since, the Spurs is the most, is really interesting, which is not really a dynasty because they didn't win back to back. They could have won back to back when they beat the heat. They lost the heat the first year, beat the heat than the next year. It's a complicated legacy. with the Bulls and with Krause. But it's not like, and they're not, so not the only one.

Obviously, we see what, let's see what happens with Golden State. Uh, we saw what happened with Miami, with Boston only. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending. Opinions are flying. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where sports slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes. the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

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and try to make sense of how we survived it including a recent episode with mark lamon hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What?

Time out. Quarterback on office, Blue, 42. Dude. Hey, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Where's he at? Hey, Miss Parker.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. It's really hard to win multiple, let alone six titles in eight years. Think about what Phil Jackson was able to accomplish, right? I mean, he won three in a row with the Lakers. So in six consecutive seasons, he won an NBA championship.

That's crazy. But I walk away thinking Jordan's the greatest ever. I thought he was beforehand. He had indomitable will. He forced guys to work hard. He forced them to get in line. And if you're offended by his way of leadership, then they probably got rid of you.

If you couldn't do it, couldn't hack it. It's not for everybody. It's not. And it's a sacrifice. But the sacrifice is worth it because those teams go down as, you know, the greatest run of the modern era. It just does. And what's crazy is that a lot of those guys, you forget, they weren't on all six teams.

Some of them weren't on three teams. That's my take. All right. Let's get to Steve Hawkins, the now former head coach at Western Michigan. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1-800 Flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination. 1-800 flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise. Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1-800flowers.com for exclusive offers and great values.

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of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. On Fox Sports Radio and the IHeart Radio app. All right, let's welcome him in a long time, frankly, legendary coach at Western Kentucky. And now looking for what's the next thing? Remember, they won two Mac tournaments, two regular season Mac championships, they won the Mac West eight times over during his tenure. He's won 428 games during his college coaching career.

And Steve Hawkins joins us here on the all-ball pod. Hawk, how are you? I'm doing well, Doug. How about yourself? I'm good. I'm trying to think back. Snow Valley, but I don't remember what year. And I don't remember if you were actually my head coach or simply a coach there. And I'll tell you why I want to get to.

But what do you remember about first Snow Valley Basketball, Westmont College in Santa Barbara? What are your memories when I bring that camp up? Do you really want me to say it? Yeah, man. You can say, like, everybody knows I was an asshole when I was a kid. I'm an asshole now. What's the difference? Okay. Well, then good.

You can say it about yourself. No, it was Snow Valley Basketball Camp in, gosh, Almighty. I'm going to say late 80s, maybe, maybe early 90s. And Charlie Sands and Herb Lively, the outstanding directors of the camp, come to me after about day one of this particular week and said, listen, we got a kid, okay, and I'm telling you now, he's a pain in the ass. But we think you're the guy to handle them. And I said, okay, so they put you on my team.

And you weren't an issue. You questioned things, but you weren't an issue at all. So from then, so I don't know how old you were. I mean, I'm going to say middle school, maybe. Yeah. I went there, I think, from like time I was 10 or 11. 11 probably till I was like 14. Maybe they let me in.

Part of the deal was this. I think I was a freebie, right? So it's one thing to be a pain to the at. Like I was more of a pain in the ass in the dorms, just playing pranks and being a jackass, you know, whatever, taking out the slats of bunks, putting icy hot in in like a roommate's underwear, like that kind of stuff, right? Like not when it came to the work.

Like when it came to, I love basketball. Like that wasn't the issue. It was just, you know, I like to. That was my way of having a good time. But it's one thing to be a pain in the ass. It's another thing when everybody else's parent is paying probably at the time $300 and you're not, you know, your dad's getting you in gratis. And I don't know if you remember.

There used to be two sessions. And so, you know, one session would end on like a Saturday midday. And the next session would start on a Sunday afternoon. And so I would stay for, my dad, my dad would just take me up and drop me off. And then, hey, we'll come get him in two weeks. So then, you know, so like they're doing a solid of letting you stay for that extra day when no one's around doing all these things for you, doing it for free, and then, yeah, you're paying the ass in the dorm. So I think that's why I irritated Herb and Charlie more than more than anything else. I think, go ahead.

You know, it was a boot camp. It was unbelievable. I've been working for a company called Sports World that ran all of John Wooden's camps and as well as Pat Riley's at the time. Paul Welk, people like that. And I was work, that was my, that was my summer job. And then I, and then I found out about Snow Valley through a mutual friend that it also worked. These camps went up there and was like, holy cow, country club. Not that Coach Wooden's camps were country club, but the first session of Snow Valley was 6 a.m.

You know, and the last game went off at midnight. You know, so it was, I remember Charles Sam's coming out and saying, hey, listen to campers, there's 400 campers there. Sleep is overrated. That's the first line every week at camp, and the camp would go crazy. And, yeah, it was solid. That's for sure.

Yeah, the first day and a half, no basketball, right? You do shooting drills and no basketball. Footwork, defense, spacing, all the little things. Okay, so this is an honest question. I don't know if you know the answer. They still have, they sold Snow Valley, the Westmont version of it, and to the Nike camps, whatever,

and there's also one at UC San Francisco. but there's one in Iowa, I've been told, some of the same coaches run it. Are there, like, this summer, are there any basketball, are there basketball camps like that around period? And are there any basketball camps that are going to be around this summer? No, I don't think that they're, number one on Snow Valley. I'm not sure what happened to it. I believe that, and I don't want to speak completely out of place here, Doug,

but I believe that Snow Valley, there was a guy named Don Scho Walter, who's very heavy with USA basketball, and he used to work a tremendous person. And I used to work Coach Wooden's camps with him as well, and I believe that he got involved with Snow Valley. And that may be the, because he was a high school coach in Iowa. But in terms of camps, I don't know of anybody that has been cleared because of COVID. I don't know of anybody that has been.

cleared to have basketball camps this summer. I spoke with Mick Cronin out of UCLA. We texted back and forth, and I know they weren't having any, and that was as of, gosh, almighty, maybe three, four weeks ago. How did, what was that? How did you get to work John Wooden's camp? Because I know you got a chance to be really close with Coach Wooden, especially in the summers.

How'd that come to be? Yeah. I was coaching in Southern California. I just graduated from high school. Fledgling football career was done because of knee injuries. And so I was going to Ventura Junior College. And I had to get into it. And my parents were on my butt about getting a job.

And I knew I always wanted to coach. And not to get too deep into the weeds on this, but basically I found a job board. And there was a freshman coach spot available at Villanova Prep High School up in Ohio, California. And then I did that for a year. And I met a guy there that had worked Coach Wooden's Camps. And he gave me a brochure.

And I applied. I went to Coach Wooden's Camps as a kid, and I applied to work there. did the first summer as a counselor, then the next summer, about halfway through, they promoted being to what was called the head counselor, which is basically the assistant director of the camps. So about four,

and there was more than one of us. I did it. I ended up doing it the rest of the entirety of the time that he had the camps there, and that California Lutheran College in Thousand Oaks. And that's really how it came to be. Now, the big perk working coach Wooden's camps for me when I was, when you're that title, when you have the head counselor job, the big, the big perk was you picked them up every morning and you took him home every afternoon. And it was during that time that we got to be, we got to be pretty close. It's about a half hour drive from Thousand Oaks to his condo and Encino.

And so we got to know each other pretty well. but was during that time, also his beloved wife, Nell, had passed away. And so coach was very open during that time. And we got to be, he obviously was a confid on. He obviously was my mentor in many ways. He was like my second father. But at the same time, he became a friend. And we brought him back here to Kalamazoo.

as a matter of fact to western Michigan he spoke at a fundraiser for us in 2006 to help our team to take a foreign trip and it just became a wonderful relationship that it got to a point where

oh gosh there was probably a time where not two or three weeks went by that I didn't speak to them whether it be about life whether it be just checking in with them or whether it be basketball wise And I'll tell you, Doug, you know, if you had ever spent any time around coaching, what most people know now as is, you know, the pyramid of success, you know, that's what is really carried over as part of his legacy.

There are people teaching, you know, the pyramid of success everywhere in different versions of it. And certainly, and rightfully so. But at the same time, when you got coach involved, even as he got a lot older, when you got a lot older, When you got coach involved in a conversation about basketball, his eyes changed. I mean, the competitiveness really came back. His jaw got set, and he became competitive again, and he loved to talk basketball. What was the most interesting thing he said about basketball? Oh, boy.

Where do you begin there? I think that the biggest things that I took away from him on the basketball front was one time he told me it took him about anywhere between three and four hours to plan a two-hour practice and he put as much time planning his practices and much longer planning his practices than he did actually conducting him

and so that was one thing that had to so the preparation part he took careful here's something crazy you've been around about basketball your whole life. Now, it's, here's something crazy to think about. You have your back then practice has started on October the 15th.

You know, and whenever the games began, I don't know, but let's say you had a month before practice. They never scrimmaged except for one day a week. He felt like playing was a privilege. And so it was all about

preparation. And then when he and during those scrimmages, leading up to the first game, he would make sure that everybody, you know, of course, this is back also when you had a freshman team and a JV team, he would make sure that everybody had played the exact same amount of minutes in scrimmage time against everybody else, and with everybody else. He didn't want anybody to have an unfair advantage.

For instance, okay, well, you got to play with at that time, Louis Alcindor, so you looked a lot better. or Bill Walton, so you looked a lot better. He made sure that everybody had the exact same amount of time. His preparation was something that really stood out to me. Why did he retire when he did? He felt like he retired so early, he had so much more to offer. You know, I've heard him answer that a million times.

I don't have anything. I really, you know, in all of those conversations in the car, I mean, in the morning we were together, or we were alone a lot, because it was so early when you picked him up. And it was just the majority of the time, it was simply a conversation about what had happened, giving him an update on camp. But in the afternoon,

that was the time that you were almost never alone with him. That's when he used that amount of time for interviews. It could be a sports writer. It could be a coach. It could be anybody that wanted to do an interview with him. I would pick him up there at Count Lutheran, and we would drive to Encino, and I got to hear all of those questions asked and to hear him answer all of those. And whenever it came to that question about retirement, his answer was unwavering.

He said that until the semi-final game that year in 75, I believe it was, that he retired, when they won, he was on his way to the media. And before he went into the media, he said that he really... Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down,

give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast. network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist,

Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase

that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough, Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth?

Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose

on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app. Search Learn the Hard Way and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee.

We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What?

Where's he at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. He told the team that he loved him and that they had been one of the easiest teams he had ever had to coach. And that was something to say for the very last team that he would ever coach at UCLA. And everybody was shocked. and he said that he did not know he was even going to say it until he said it.

And he knew it was the right thing to do. And he never regretted it, never looked back. So you get there in the morning, is he a coffee guy? Was he a tea guy? You smoke cigarettes? Like to me, that's more interesting than anything else. Like what was, you pick up the old coach in the morning. I know he had a newspaper at the time.

What was that like? yeah no it was a um um to the best of mine not i don't know if he woke up in in his in his condo if he drank a cup of coffee or anything along those lines but the reason i picked him up so early is he wanted to have uh he wanted to eat breakfast with the campers so we would be back in time and in the cafeteria um when the campers came down um for breakfast and so he would eat he would go table to table he'd talk to coaches talk to players the campers there but he would actually eat breakfast there

he never drank, never smoked as a matter of fact it was shortly one of the most memorable one of the most memorable days I ever had was the first time really in my life was the first time I got invited

into coach's condo and it was shortly after his wife had passed away and we were having we were in the middle of a conversation and it was one of the rare afternoons that I took him home with nobody else in the car. And so as we approached his condo, he said, well, Steve, do you have to get back to camp? And then he goes, well, what am I thinking?

The camp is named after me. He said, you can come on him. And he said, just tell the two directors, guy named Hector Masease and another one named Hal Menterovich. He said, just tell Hector and Hal that I kept you. So I went into his condo and we talked and he introduced me to his favorite cocktail that day, which was Welch's grape juice with 7-Up. And that was about as heavily as he ever drank. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1-800flowers.com.

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slash tune-in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune-in. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this,

and connect with this. We reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree.

They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure in pebble. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org, brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. What about his coaching style did you use in the way in which you've coached? Not a lot of it. You know, in terms of style, there were a lot of the teachings here at Western Michigan.

that I base things on. His definition of success, I actually have a tattoo on my right arm of his definition of success. And so we based, and we took it to recruiting, we took it to everything we did, and I've tried to do what I could

to base my life around it, and it drives me, it really drives me daily. We put it on everything in the locker room and so forth, and so on, but so his teachings, and then his fairness, his sense of fairness. So the general things,

were the takeaways. The specifics, it wasn't likely ran the high post offense. I was not able to stay away from the cursing that the coach wouldn't, the coach wouldn't stayed away from. He would never curse things like that. And so I wasn't able to stay away from that. but in terms of the general principles, yes, I mean, the definition of success,

success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction, which comes from knowing you did the best to become the best, you're capable of becoming. That, you know, we've tried to, you know, and I've tried to live by that. It doesn't met the scoreboard, as you know, the scoreboard can lie to you. You can win a game and play terribly. you know, if you play an inferior opponent. You know, you can lose a game and feel great because you, you know, I don't want to say great, but you can feel better about it because, you know,

if the Western Michigan Broncos were to play the L.A. Lakers 100 times, they're going to lose 101 games. But in some games, you can play better than in others. You have no control over your opponent. You do have control over your effort, your concentration, your desire, your preparation, those are things, those are standards. Those aren't goals. Those are standards.

And there's a major difference between the two. And so living up to a standard was way more important than reaching the goal of, say, 20 wins. You know, you have no control over injuries, things like that. You know, you just, so preparation and desire and things along those lines were the main things that took away from coach. the head coach at Quincy, and it's in Illinois for people who don't know where Quincy University is, you've been an assistant there, you left, went to St. Andrews, you came back. You'd been, you know, a college assistant, you'd been a coach in high school, and then a college assistant for a long time. What was it like to get your first head coaching job at Quincy and get to call your own plays,

make your own team? It was humbling. You know, it's something that you really, I was 28. When I got the job, it's a Division 2 school in Illinois, Quincy University. I was the head coach there for nine years, and it was in the best Division 2 league in the nation. The Southern Indiana, when I was at Quincy Southern Indiana. Bruce Pearl was the coach at Southern Indiana, Kentucky Wesleyan, and he had won a national championship there. Ray Harper was the head coach, Kentucky Wesleyan. They had won championships there. Bob Valvano, Jim Valvano's brother was the head coach

at Bellarmine. There were just some outstanding, Jim White's now the coached at Buffalo. He was at Lewis University, so some outstanding coaches in a great league. And Northern Kentucky was in the league. They were Division II school at that time, now

Division I in the Horizon Conference. And it was very humbling because you think you're ready. And what really happened there, and this is one of the reasons why I think whatever success I had here at Western Michigan while I was coaching here, so much of it, I made so many mistakes early. There wasn't a rung on the ladder that I missed coming up. You mentioned some of the stops. And there wasn't, you know, from being a freshman coach to a JV coach, to a student assistant at a D1, to a,

a graduate assistant at a D2 to an AI school as an assistant, back to a D2 as an assistant, and then a head coach at a D2 in Quincy University for the next nine years before I came to Western Michigan as an assistant for three years, and then finally a head coach at a Division I school. So there weren't too many rungs on the ladder that I missed. I've slept in cars on recruiting trips because we didn't. have the budget. And when you start making mistakes at the Division 2 level, especially in that

first year that you're talking about, there wasn't, there certainly wasn't social media at the time. And sometimes the media just missed it all together. You know, like calling the time out, you shouldn't have called or making a substitution that you shouldn't have made. And you learn from some at the time. And hopefully those mistakes you don't make later on. But I remember being extremely humbled. You think you know it all, and you're ready for the job, and then you get over there

and you find out, no, no, this is much more difficult. And Quincy, you know, it doesn't sound like my... Quincy was a basketball crazy city and community. And so it was the show. There's two big high schools there,

and the university was raised. So it was being put into the fire in my own way, in my own little small world. you left Quincy to be an assistant at western Michigan under Robert McClellan. Why leave being a head coach to be a Division I assistant? For the main, and this is one of the things that makes coaching so difficult at the college level and that a lot of folks don't really understand.

You're so reliant on everybody else to do their job also. and at Quincy University, budget cuts were taking place. There were major budget cuts taking place. There was a change in the athletic director spot, and there was a change in the president's spot. And the university had falling enrollment, and it was in some trouble financially.

They weren't investing in basketball. And as I said, you had a place like Southern Indiana with Bruce Pearl. they were investing. And so I... Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where sports slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

The laughs, the drama, the trouble. triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite

therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped

up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing, and we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth,

or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app.

Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-taped Little Kim's boots? at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84's big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but yeah, yeah. Literally, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed, correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, the Clifford Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, rec, my mama want you to wave at her.

What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Park. Listen to the Cliverts show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just did not see a good future there. Losing literally affects my health. I mean, mental, physical, all of it. The losing.

And so we just weren't, we've been to a lot of NCAA tournaments. We just weren't heading in the right direction. I felt like I was in a losing situation, so I decided to make the jump. Okay, but what's that like? You go from being a head coach where you call your own shots. Now you're somebody's assistant. Some of you'd done before, but something you hadn't done in nine years. How difficult was that part of the transition?

Yeah, the first week was like, what the hell have I done? You know, because I'd given up all that control. You know, now all of a sudden, you know, you get the biggest adjustment is you go from working on your own schedule to somebody else's schedule. You know, if a coach gets pissed off And, you know, if your head coach gets pissed off And kicks everybody out of practice, you know, at 4.30 and says, Okay, we're coming back tonight at 8 and we're going to finish practice. Well, you're going to show up.

You know, and it doesn't matter if you had a dinner date plan with your wife or not. A daddy-daughter dance, something like, it's all off. You know, and so one of the biggest adjustments is just going back to working on somebody else's schedule. Now, that was a bad part of things, the good part of things, was that it's back to just being basketball. It was great to not have to go in to meetings with the president or the athletic director and try and fight for your program. It was great to just be back with the guys, you know, to be back with players, player development, recruiting, film, watching film, the stuff that you love to do. So that was the positive part of thing.

others also. So there was some good and some bad that went along with it, but I was really ready for the change. He gets the South Florida job. Robert McCullum's the head coach. He gets the South Florida job. What was the process like of getting the Western job? Yeah, that was a difficult time right there because Western Michigan wasn't sure what they were going to do. It wasn't like they elevated me immediately. And Robert wanted an answer pretty quick about whether

not, I was going to go with them to South Florida. And so I had to kind of roll the dice a little bit. And I stuck around Western Michigan. We were close to final exams. And so I stuck around Western Michigan, and I talked to the athletic director. Her name is Kathy Beauregard. It's still the athletic director. I had talked to her and said, listen, I don't think it's a good time to be leaving the kids.

They're in the middle of final exams. She agreed. I stayed on as an interim while they tried to figure it out. It was about two weeks, about two weeks later with the player support. They were the ones that really helped with the whole thing. It was about two weeks later that I got the head coaching job. So it was a little nerve-wracking. I wasn't sure.

We had done our job. We had built the program when Coach McCollum was, it was an extremely driven man, part of the George Ravelling family, and it was a tremendous coach and a very hardworking coach. and it really willed the program into 2003 from eight wins to then going to the NIT and winning a game actually before he took South Florida jobs. So it's one of those deals where you do your job and you think you're going to be rewarded. And I'll hang on a second. I may be without a job altogether if Robert needs to make a move down South Florida or and if Western Michigan decides I'm not the guy, where am I going to be?

So it was a tenuous time for sure. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you.

Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring. at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. If I could be you. And you could be me? For just one hour.

If you could find a way to get inside. Each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. We've all felt left out. And for some, that feeling lasts more than a moment.

We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us.org. Brought to you by the ad council. And we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags.

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and there it goes! Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.gov slash the right seat.

brought to you by Nidza and the Ad Council. Then you get the job and you immediately do an incredible job and you have the opportunity to go take other jobs. You know, what, okay, so now you take over at Western. It's different than even when you took over Quincy, because when you took over Quincy, you'd been there, but you left for St. Andrews and you came back. So this is a team where you know everybody.

You're the stabilizing force. You do end up getting the job and staying behind to take me through your first year at Western. It was surreal. the first year at Western was our best team and so we built the team and then that year

we ended up going 26 and 5 and winning the Mac and going to the NCAA tournament so my first year as a head coach in Division I basketball you know all of a sudden you turn around and we were a bit of a story that year

and one of the you know kind of the team to watch out for after we got in. And I remember we'd beat Kent State in the Mac Championship game in 2004. And I remember the relief more than anything else because we were favored, obviously, going into it. And I remember answering a question in the press conference about, you know, what seed we were going to be in the NCAA tournament, what I thought. And I said, I don't know.

I don't really care. It's just going to be a relief to not be favored again. You know, there's been a lot of pressure on the guys and on us. And everybody joked about it. And then our first round opponent was Vanderbilt. And through the media types, everybody started picking us as an 11 seed over Vanderbilt to the 60. We actually went into the game as a favorite again. And so it was a strange surreal year.

All of a sudden you dream of these kind of things. But the next thing, you know, you work out on the practice court, you know, and there's four or five thousand fans there to watch your practice. And we were down in Orlando that year. So it was a very strange feeling. It's almost an out-of-body experience, you know, when you're walking out under the court for the first time in the NCAA tournament. and we had a tremendous team with some great kids, kids that I'm still in touch with to this day,

you know, talked with one of the guards on the team just two days ago, Brian Snyder. And so it was just a very memorable year, a very special year. Yeah, Mike Williams was great in that game. Yeah. Mario Moore lets you guys up a little bit. How much do you remember about the game? mentioned Snyder, he obviously struggled. He won for, I checked the stats, one for nine, did have six assists.

You know, you had Ben Reed, who went on to become your best player the following year. Here's what I'm interested in. So the next year you go to the NIT, and then you have a very young team for a couple of years. Was it more rewarding? I think it was about four years later, you end up winning the Mac and you win 20 games. Which was more rewarding, getting that NCAA tournament, the relief in your first year, or rebuilding it and winning the league about five years later? We had won some Mac West titles.

I think we won eight Mac West titles in 17 years. I was the head coach. And there's something like that, seven, eight. I don't remember. But the 2014 was the last time we won the Mac overall in the Mac tournament. And I think that there was, each of them are special in their own way. The first one was obviously special, and it was a crazy year, me taking over as head coach. But the 2014 team was not favored at all to win it.

And we had some great players, Shane Winnington, was our center, went on to play for the Pacers for a while. And still playing in Spain. We had some outstanding players on that team. team and it was a great team. They really shared the ball well. And so that one, there was a relief, and there was certainly a pleasure. I was able to enjoy that, I think, more than the first one.

Because I remember sending that Larry Farmer was my assistant coach. The longtime UCLA legend, he was one of my assistant coaches at Western for six years with me. And we stood on the court as the celebration was occurring. people started to cut down nets and all of that kind of thing. And both of us were able to really kind of take in the moment. And so I'd say I appreciated that one probably a little bit more. The first one was more fun. The second one was probably more appreciated.

You know, it's interesting. The 14 squad, I called your games in Puerto Rico. Whittington, I'm going to say he was a sophomore. You also had Matt Stainbrook, who went on to be kind of a star at Xavier, you know, lost some weight and he played, you know, so it's interesting because I remember sitting with you and you said, you said, look, this kid, winning team is going to be really, really good in a couple years. But, you know, when you're calling, and I hadn't called a ton of Mac games. So, you know, you kind of got to trust your judgment on. Just trust me in a year or two. This kid has a chance to be a pro.

You're like, whoa, hold on, coach. Wait a second. I know you love your kids, right? I want to ask you, though, about now the landscape. I mean, you were one of the first to lose one of your best players to the transfer up, right? Now a lot of times it's a grad transfer, but sometimes it's a regular transfer. Like here you are at a Mac school, and you didn't leave when you had the opportunity to. Now student athletes are offered the opportunity, whether it's grad transfer, regular transfer,

to transfer up a level from, you know, Mac to Big Ten or whatever. what are your feelings about where we are now as opposed to when you started at Western in terms of the transfer culture? You know what, Doug? And by the way, I got to come in you on your memory because, I mean, going back to Hawaii and you call them those games. Puerto Rico. It was Puerto Rico. And I remember it's Puerto Rico. And we also, like, what you don't know is we went out, I went out to dinner with like the referees one night.

And it was amazing. Like I learned so much more about these referees that I've been killing on air for like 10 years. and I ended up loving these guys. I went out to, we went out, and, you know, we're having, we're having mojitos, and they know everything about the teams, they know who's good, who's not, who's an a-hole, who's not, like, it was amazing. But, yes, of course, I hadn't seen you in forever, and I got a chance to call three-year games. It was a lot of fun.

And I remember also, you did, if you remember going back, you did a tournament in Hawaii, the rainbow, or not the rainbow, but the diamond head. Yeah, no, the diamond head. Diamondhead. Yeah. Yeah, and you were, I remember catching you one morning, you were taking surfing lessons. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast. Learn the hard way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist,

Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about, wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross,

because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth,

fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day but just so y'all know I mean at this point this is the second episode where we've discussed crack so I'm starting to see there's a through line

We also have AIDS on the table right now so Thank you finishing that sentence I don't think there's a more important year for black people Really? Yeah for me it's one of the most important

years for black people in American history Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What?

Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. With my wife on Christmas Day.

That's right. With my wife on Christmas Day, we took surfing lessons. That's a good. That's a good. See, I'm not the only one with a good memory. Well, see, I've been doing my own research. I'm getting ready. I've mentioned to you.

I'm getting ready to start my own podcast here in a couple of weeks, most likely. Obviously, I'm hoping you return the favor and come on. Sure. But preparation is the key. That's what I keep hearing. It absolutely is. Okay, so, why didn't you ever leave? You had opportunities?

You had like 14. You win the league. You're doing a great job. You have no flaws in terms of, you know, NCAA stuff where guys can't hire you. You've coached in the Midwest. You have West Coast Roots. Why stay? Um, it's harder to answer that question now, um, and, and be honest with you at it,

because of what has taken place. You know, I was like, go at Western Michigan, you know, on March the 11th, uh, after 20 years at the school, had I known that it was going to end that way, um, I probably would have left, um, a lot earlier. Uh, the, so that's the end of it. Um, the real part of it, while I was going through it, uh, it was coach Wooden. Coach Wooden's words came back to me over and over. They still do come back to me.

I remember when I took over at Western Michigan and all I kept hearing from the local fan base. And this meant something to me. I mean, I realize you've got a national audience, but it meant something to me. And when the fans are coming to you and they're saying, please don't use my school, the alumni, please don't use my school as stepping stone.

Please, please, please. don't do this, don't do. And I realized what the Mac was. And I did have opportunities. But I remembered that. I remembered the loyalty part of things. I remained loyal to the university. I like living in Kalamazoo for people that haven't been here.

It's like the beer capital of Michigan. There's, I mean, there's brew pubs everywhere. And so it's just, and I'm a beer drinker and a chicken wings kind of guy. you know and and so I was happy and you know the old thing don't mess with happy and we were winning but over the course of time the facility became a real issue the investment in the program just stopped and and you know it's kind of one of those situations where if it isn't broken don't fix it you know so when I look back on it now does if I were to be able to forecast in the future,

and I had a crystal ball, yeah, I would have taken one of those opportunities a long time ago. But I also can't say that I regret it, because I, you know, I read an interview with Jack Nicholson, of all people, a long time ago, and it was kind of,

they were throwing a topic out at him, and it was in Esquire magazine. They were throwing topics at him, and he would just kind of spout off about it, and the topic came up of a regret. And he said, what's the point? He said, I don't believe in regret. It's not productive.

And that is always stuck with me. I've never, I feel the same way. I don't regret it. I would have missed out on coaching a ton of wonderful kids that I have great relationships with to this day. That has meant as much to me as everything else. But professionally speaking, you know, I think there's an old adage in coaching,

which is, you know, It's a hell of a profession, and it's a terrible business. And I would agree with that. You know, it's a tough business to be a part of... If you go back to the first part of our segment, when we were just talking about, it's winning. There are so many elements that have to come together.

There are so many people that have to do their job. And I'm not talking about just the coaches and the players. All of the support people, athletic director, associated ADs, the marketing people. Everything that helps you with recruiting. It's all about recruiting. You know, and that's why you see, you know, I was Adolf Rup a long time ago that said you can't win the Kentucky Derby with a jackass.

You know, all of this comes down to recruiting. And you have to have the facilities in today's world to attract these 16-year-old kids that are on your campus. I mean, the old days of doing it where you come in and you do a home visit and you spend a lot of time maybe on the home or, you know, they have a full official visit and they take the full 48 hours. A lot of these kids make their minds up

on their unofficial visits. And so, I mean, there are very few kids now on an unofficial visit, maybe an afternoon. Got to hope that everything goes well during that time or maybe they come in for a football game. You really need to show them and they need to see the right things at that time. and they make their mind up in a hurry.

And so all the bells and whistles, they came backwards, yeah, it would be easy for me to say to take the money at another place at one of the times that I was offered to go someplace else. I remain loyal, and I can sleep on a soft pillow because of that.

Tell me about the podcast that you're developing. Podcast. So I'm in the process. One of the unfortunate situations is, with being let go in March during the middle of a pandemic is that no coaching jobs opened up.

And so I was one of the few fortunate. How about if we put it that way? Once to be let go in the middle of a pandemic. And so what I've had to do, I mean, I'm not a guy that sits still well. And so I'm in the process

of trying to figure out what I'm going to do for the next year and whether or not I really do want to stay in coaching. And so to cut all the way through a really long story, the thing that kept coming back was podcasts. People kept telling me start a podcast because of some of the observations you just brought up about referees. Like I want to pill back some of the layers of the basketball world,

of college. It'll be basketball-centric, but it will focus a little bit more on the eccentric than just basketball. So I'm going to talk with coaches, certainly around the country, but get into more of the personal part of things. I want to talk with coaches' wives.

You know, what's it like to sit up in the stands and hear people screaming at your husband? You know, or what's it like when you, what's it like when your husband loves a player and you don't think he's very good, you know, kind of thing? We'll get into the officiating. world. So anyway, one of our big philosophies that I've

had here at Western Michigan and developed is next possession. It's a metaphor for life. It's also obviously applicable in the basketball world. No matter what happens, you have to get to the next possession. If you score a bucket, you've got to get back on defense. And, you know, same thing in life. You know, you get, let go from a job, or

God forbid there's a death in your family. Eventually, you've got to get to the next possession. And so the podcast will be called the next possession with Steve Hawkins. And I'm in the process. I'm trying to do things that you're doing right now. I have no idea what kind of microphone to buy. You know, I had no idea what a pop pad was.

I don't know any of these things. So I'm in the process of trying to figure that out right now. But we think we have the guests lined up. We have some guys that are ready to go. And I'm real excited about I'm real excited about it. But, yeah, it's going to be a way to cut a pill back. And then I'm hoping to do some games, hoping to get behind the microphone and do some games,

assuming we have a basketball season this year. I can't wait to hear it. I would love, I would love to be a guest. Last thing. How have you handled, especially that first conversation when you come home? You've been a place 20 years. You know, it's all your, you have two little girls, right? that's all they ever knew was Western Michigan Bronco basketball and your wife.

How do you, like, you know, you've handled that with players before, you know, giving them disappointing news, whatever, but when it's your wife who has been through all of it, you know, the good, the bad, and your kids, that's all they ever know is Bronco basketball. How do you handle that at home? It was very difficult, especially with the kids. You know, my wife and I, we knew, you know, for a while. excuse me, my wife and I knew for a while that this was a possibility.

There was, the support was starting to go. They didn't offer me a contract two years ago when I was up for renewal. And the school was and is in some serious financial trouble. And so cutbacks were coming and major cutbacks were coming. We were being told by our athletic director to all sports.

This was before the pandemic. So when the pandemic actually hit, now it's, now it's, you know, probably three, four, five times worse.

But it was still a possibility, and we knew that. But I was probably getting expensive for the cutbacks that were getting ready to happen. And so, but at the same, so for me personally,

because of some of the things we talked about, Doug, earlier, where you're having to go in and fight with the athletic director and the president every day about your program and what you need to succeed and to maintain. When I got let go, it was like, okay, well, there's some relief that I don't have to do that anymore. You know, I became happy, and now I've got a whole other set of problems. you know, but getting out of a loser

and getting out of a losing situation now has just occurred. They've made the decision for me. Now telling my kids, that's a whole different thing. You're right, because when I tell them that we're no longer going to be at Western Michigan, my daughter, Emily, who's nine, and my other daughter, Alyssa, seven,

and then I have a 14-year-old stepson, you know, the tears were really, really difficult to handle. I had to explain to him. that this is, and you've got to spend it, you know, to your own family. This is going to be a good thing. Daddy's going to be home more. I'm not going to be on the road as much. That part of things.

One of the most, that was the single hardest thing that I had to do is to watch your family break into tears. And then the other hardest part was just the players. It was a very emotional locker room. I don't think they expected it to happen. And so, you know, you also have, 14 kids' lives and their families

that go up in the air with this. All of their futures become uncertain. You basically have, we had two seniors, you basically have 12 free agents. You mentioned transfers.

So you have 12 free agents in today's world as well. Two of those kids, even after they named the head coach, the new head coach, who was a former assistant, even after they named him, we had two players

that decided to, leave. Brandon Johnson's going to Minnesota and Mike Flowers is going to South Alabama. Those were two leading scores. So it's very difficult to watch everybody go through all that. But yes, your family, by far the most difficult thing with the kids. You know, I'll survive. You know, I'm a survivor when it comes to that stuff.

And really looking forward to the next year of the podcast, whatever else comes my way. And then we'll get the next spring if I'm really enjoying what I'm doing. then I'll stay in it. If I'm not enjoying it and coaching presents itself again, I don't think coaching, I know coaching is not out of my blood. You know, it's saving your dad forever and in your life. So that part of things is still there for me for sure also. Hock, you're a good man, even better coach, or a good coaching and better man.

I really appreciate you joining me. I can't wait to be on your podcast and to find out what's next. and I'm guessing it'll be a sideline somewhere in the future. In the meantime, take care of those kiddos and your wife, and thanks so much for joining me. Doug, you're the best, my friend. I appreciate you having me on. Enjoyed it.

Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. Great to catch up with Steve Hawkins. Really good dude, who obviously, it's like a traumatic time, right? Like, you go through getting fired. I guess the good news is you go through getting fired. but all these years he had spent working and grinding and out in the road recruiting and now you get to spend time with your kids. And now he's done it and we'll see what happens in the future.

Hope you enjoyed getting a chance to know his story, which is really amazing, being a sense of the chauffeur for John Wooden. To be in the head coach for 17 years at Western Michigan in his mid-50s having a chance to go on and coach somewhere else in the near future. Hey, thanks so much for listening, downloading, subscribing. Don't forget to rate us. I'm Doug Gottlieb in this. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1800flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination. 1,800 Flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise.

Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1,800flowers.com for exclusive offers and great values. To order today, visit 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear.

Listen to Sports Slice. Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slice Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a hear, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.

Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Keer Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing.

How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen and learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed human.