The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - LeBron's China Mistake; One-And-Dones Wind Down; Former Kansas Star Eric Chenowith On Expectations, KU Struggles

Episode Date: October 17, 2019

This week, Gottlieb looks at LeBron getting crushed by fans and media for criticizing Daryl Morey's tweet on Hong Kong, and if he can fully recover, and why college fans should enjoy the final one-and-done classes before players are allowed to jump straight to the pros. Former Kansas Center and McDonald's All-American Eric Chenowith discusses disappointments in Lawrence, regretting not jumping to the NBA when he was a projected 1st round pick, and trying to make the NBA via the D-League. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played. with and just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to listen to learn the hard way on the iha radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast what's up guys

this is clivert taylor the fourth and on my podcast the clivert show i'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff like being an internet famous referee we're in the middle of a game this linebacker this linebacker walks up to me he goes a ref my mom wants you to wave at her what Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Rhett, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Ms. Parker.

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so you can just fill and chill all season long. Now that's Mary. Epsom Eco Tank. Learn more at Epson.com slash All Ball with Doug. Have I told you guys about Fitvine One yet? Listen, it's a game changer. After a long day of animating, hosting, and fathering, I want to kick back and wine down. I'm also trying to make sure that I'm being mindful and balanced about what goes into my body.

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This is the All Basketball podcast and the Hurt Podcast Network. My guest this week is my longtime friend in college and radio rival, Eric Chenoweth. Of course, EC was the center at Kansas for a couple years in Osloxas at Oklahoma State. Second round pick of the New York Knicks. He's a former McDonald's All-American. And he now sells a various, a lot. lotment of insurance policies to both schools and athletes as they get ready to either come back and play in college or to pair for the NBA NFL draft.

Anyway, EC will join us upcoming. Let's talk about the story that won't go away, right? It's crazy because we're less than a week away from the NBA season beginning. Clippers and Lakers at Staples Center. That's the marquee matchup on opening night, right? the new Grand Theft Auto font on the front of the Clippers jersey. I'm in. I can't wait to see this kind of burgeoning rivalry in the city of Angels.

That said, what a disaster week for LeBron James. I mean, not good. Not good. And I do think that some of the things that he said are true. Many of the things he said are true. Like, I don't know if Darry is truly educated on Hong Kong on what, there's a difference in Hong Kong and then the practices of the Chinese government.

There is. I don't know why he said people could be spiritually harmed. The idea it could be physically harmed. Financially harmed, obviously perked everybody's years. And then the idea that LeBron had to then have a statement on Instagram, not once but twice. So he had two statements on Instagram, and then he came out and made another statement at practice

and another statement of practice, and then he said, I'm not going to talk about it anymore. Because they all kind of went over the same. He's put himself in a couple of different corners. LeBron and many of his cohorts in the NBA, who look up to him, have criticized politically the right wing,

not just the president, but also people who don't believe what he believes. And that's fine. Like he said, he does have freedom of speech. not free of ramification. The problem is that when he takes the stance that he's perceived to be taking on China, well, you spent, I don't know,

the last four or five years pissing off the right, and now you're taking a crap on the left. So that's a hard one. And then here's kind of to me, the biggest hypocrisy is not getting mad because it's hurting you in your wallet and the idea that he is in fact selling out. It's because he's not wrong. You don't have to comment on everything.

Like even the idea of being more than an athlete, like he didn't have to comment on everything. Like even in our newscasts, how many times do we see there's a tragic accident? Only five Americans perish. No Americans perish. Like, oh, the accident's not that big deal because no Americans perish. Right. so we won't comment on it. We won't send relief effort for it unless it somehow affects us.

He's not wrong there. And he's not wrong that many are uneducated on what's going on in Hong Kong. But it hasn't stopped him from speaking out on things in the past that he might not be all that educated on. Right? I mean, NCAA athletes, he didn't play in college. What does he know about the college experience? What does he know about the value of, you know, it goes actually, goes counter to his perceived and preached belief of the value of education for his I

promised school. I think, though, the biggest issue is that LeBron James has been a leader to the idea of, if you're not getting what you want, don't play. Leave, go to somewhere else, right? Whether it's in his career. NFL players, Jalen Ramsey, I'm not going to play, end up getting traded. Like, that's great. You're in China.

You knew about the controversy. Don't play. You don't have to play. Why not? You're LeBron James. So look, the LeBron thing, I don't know. You know, he's done an amazing job his entire life or public life, which is like his junior year in high school on, of seemingly saying and doing most of the right things. And of course, the criticism of when he first left Cleveland was wrong.

You know, I don't know why he needed to donate $2 million to a boys club in Greenwich, Connecticut. You know, could have done the same to Akron back then. But now we're just kind of trying to fly in flaws with the super mom. You know, there's been no talk of drugs, affairs with women. You know, it's been basketball stuff, not liking coaches, some getting some of them fired, not loving playing in certain organizations and moving on, wanting better players than he had last year with the Lakers. That's basketball professional stuff, not personal stuff.

I'm not saying the guy is flawless, but the PR of LeBron has for the most part been flawless. But here's, I think, what happens. Like, let's hit the nail on the head. What happens when you become so big and you keep your circle so small and people come in and all they want to do is kiss the ring. Nobody tells you you're wrong anymore.

And they had a week. They had an entire week to figure out, man, what am I going to say about this China thing? Because look, anybody with the brain understands we're tapped out in the United States. Right. Like Facebook, Google, Apple, Yahoo, you know, those are the, those are the, those are the companies, I'm forgetting somebody, those are the companies that have all the cash. Everybody else kind of tapped out. And you're looking for markets where there's growth.

Turkey's one. The other one is China. China has the people. Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending. Opinions are flying. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action

with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast,

Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations

with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are

in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth?

Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose.

on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee.

We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, A, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office, Blue, 42. Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to weigh better. What?

Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Cliverts show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game.

His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup,

he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing.

That man, hell get the flying. man, he running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball, like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China has the growth. China was suppressed for years because of how they were old-school communist. Now they're like new school capitalist, slast communist, and everybody's trying to get in on China. They just are.

that's why baseball wants to play there football wants to play there basketball already is playing there it's no secret it's about the money it's about the people it's about the financial resources to have more people have more money but boy for a guy who

has done so many things the right way to appear to be about the bottom line and I don't even think it's about his bottom line like I don't think he's that ticked that his appearances were canceled. But he's mad Kyle Kuzma lost a million dollars.

But if you lose a million dollars for the right reason, right? And by the way, you might lose a million now. You might make two on the back end of it if you do things the right way. Hey, we're not going to, we're not going to play. Where was the stance? Where's the stance of unless there's some improvement to human rights, we're not going to play? If you're so bothered by one tweet, then maybe you shouldn't have us play basketball in your country because this is how we feel. And I do, like, I feel for the idea that it's a different country, it's a completely different government,

completely different ideology than the one we grew up in or the one we grew up aiming to have America be. But if you're going to defend it, especially considering who you've aligned yourself politically with, this is what you're going to be met with. LeBron James is an athlete, immensely talented one. But he's not more than athlete. unless you consider being a capitalist more than athlete. Teathing can be a real nightmare for your little ones. So are you looking for the best relief to soothe teething pain?

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I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm printing non-stop through the holidays. You got cards, gift tags, lists, cookie receipts, mostly cookie receipts. Plus, you got to get these reimbursements. And nothing will ruin the fun like good old-fashioned cartridge conyption. That's when your printer's pricey ink cartridges run out of ink at the worst possible time. And you can't help but lose it a little. Or a lot. It's frustrating.

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Learn more at Epson.com slash all ball with Doug. Let me just give you this kind of real quick preview college basketball thought. As we creep closer and closer to when we believe, we believe that high school players will be allowed to come out straight to the pros. Let's appreciate the superstar freshmen that are going to be playing college basketball. ball like Cole Anthony. Now, I saw Cole Anthony. It's Greg Anthony's son.

I saw him play several times of the past three years. And he's got a little asshole in him, right? And I mean that in an endearing quality. Like he's so tough and so kind of mean and so competitive that I feel like, and I know there are people who will tell you he's not great to play with. He can be a little selfish. He can be a little temperamental. Like, yeah, I like, I think Roy Williams,

Coach Williams will handle that. I just do. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he doesn't win the Bob Coozy Award. Wouldn't be surprised at all if he becomes a national player of the year candidate. He's that talented. Carolina's pretty good as well. So, but they lose so much losing, you know, Cam Johnson and, you know, that kind of dynamic combination of two, you know, old big guys that can really shoot the basketball

and Luke May. That's all just got cut. But the teams that will win for the most part are going to be the older teams the way it is, although there's been this massive purge and massive turnover in college basketball, so many guys going to pros. But the things that we're going to miss, we're going to miss these top five, top ten, high school Americans because they'll all go pro. I think ultimately if that happens, it'll work out.

I think ultimately it'll work out where too many guys go pro the first couple of years and then eventually they figure out, hey, the G League is not a great place. If you're not going to be a lottery pick, if you're not going to be on an NBA team, go to college for a couple years. But I do think for several years we're going to lose a lot of those high school Americans. I'm excited about Cole Anthony. He's a different type of cat in terms of not just pedigree, toughness, to nasty. His shooting continues to improve. He defends.

He's got size. He's got athleticism. He's really, really good. You'll enjoy watching him, but let's enjoy watching these talented freshmen because we won't see as many have as profound an impact in the years to come. All right, let's welcome in my first guest. My guest, he's Eric Chenoweth, former star at the University of Kansas, former second round draft pick of the New York Knicks. Catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio and the IHeart Radio app. Let's catch up with the legend himself. He was a McDonald's All-American in 1997 at a Villa Park High School. Who was in the McDonald's All-American game in 1997?

Wow, we had some guys, Elton Brand, Lamar Odom, Brendan Haywood, Chris Burgess, run our tests. We had Baron Davis Collins twins. That's a lot of big I mean West Coast big dudes, right? Yeah.

Yeah, it was like, I think it was kind of the last crop of real, you know, big guys and there was obviously the, you know, Tyson Chandler and a couple guys after that. But since then,

it's kind of been a lot of wings and guards coming out of Southern California. You know, you guys got beat badly. You had Britain Johnson, Jason, Colin, Jaron Collins, you, Burgess, who did my potterly, and Marcus Griffin, and Ryan Humphrey, my man, hump, all on the same team and you guys lost.

Now, the other team had other bigs, Lamar Oda, Melvin Eli, and Brendan Haywood, Marcus Fizer. What do you remember about the game? Bad coaching, obviously, you know? I mean, it's never our fault. I just, I mean, I was kind of like starstruck the whole time. I was just so honored to be there to be named to McDonald's American and then actually get there and have a live game on CBS and, you know, get to play with my future teammate Kenny Gregory.

It was really, I mean, I just had to pinch myself the whole time. It was such a great experience. But the game was kind of a blur because it just went so fast and everything was so intense. Now the game is like a, you know, throw it up, all-star game. But back then, we actually got after it and, you know, played hard. Why did you, remind me, why did you pick Kansas? Because you wanted to go there really badly, and coach didn't want to recruit you, so I thought I'd want up and go there instead.

That is so fucked up. Yeah, I just, I wanted you, wanted you to point out. I wanted to go to Duke, but they had taken Wojo the year before. I did always love Kansas in the way in which they played. played, and they took Robertson early. They took Ryan Robertson early, and, you know, he was local, and he was a McDonald's All-American my senior year, which I'll never get. Anyway.

But, yeah, he didn't, but no, but seriously, why did, why Kansas? I mean, obviously, you've played a game there. I mean, once you step foot on that arena, all the history and the mystique to have a chance, to play there, you know, it was beyond my furthest dreams. I remember when I was a kid, I used to do yard work with my dad, and we'd listen to the games as we did work at the house. And I remember listening to, like, the 88 championship game over a radio with my dad and, like, idolizing Danny Manning, and then he went to the Clippers, and I kind of got to know him

through some friends. And I just, it was always Kansas and everybody else for me. And then, I mean, really honestly, I remember our Sunday night workout at Tufton high school, we were in high school, and I remember one day you came in and you were like, I know you were eating something and you were like, you know, hey, in between bites, you're like, oh, you're going to Kansas, fall down, 16,000, 300. And I was like, and it's really weird, but I think at that moment I kind of like conceptualized it like, you know what?

I think that is the right spot for me. And then I committed early as well, so I committed August 1st, which was coach's birthday after the recruiting period. And I wanted to have a fun senior year, not deal with all the recruiting and stress and who's going where I knew where I wanted to go and I went there. and, I mean, I had great experience, won a lot of games, and, you know, and still have really, really great relationships and ties to the university. Did you take a visit there before you committed?

Yeah, I took an unofficial. So I did all unofficial's my junior year. Right. So I visited. Yeah, you went to Notre Dame. Yeah, I saw you, saw Coach McLeod. You know, I went to Indiana, Kansas, obviously. We did Duke.

I did Utah. I went to Majeris's big man camp, so I went there. You hit all the big white guy spots. That's what you did. Because Duke had like Taman Domsowski's big, you know, all those big guys, Mark Akers and Laitner, right? And then Indiana always had big white guys and Notre Dame big white guys. Like, do you have a big white guy? Sure, I'll come visit your campus.

That was basically a recruiting philosophy. Right. Yeah, you said it. But, yeah, I mean, luckily my, you know, my dad could afford to take us on his, on a show, official trips. Because like I said, I really wanted to have a carefree fun senior year. I didn't want to be missing football games on Fridays. I don't want to be traveling everywhere. I wanted to just get it done with and then, you know, have my senior year to myself. So, but, you know, the unofficial trips aren't as great as official trips, obviously. I did take an

official trip to Kansas, but yeah, I'm glad I got it done early. Okay, so you show up at Kansas in the fall of 1997. that team had Paul Pierce and Ray for the Friends. What do you remember? What was your first impressions of being on campus, playing pickup ball, what the whole experience was like? I just remember the level of intensity, the step up from high school to college was,

I mean, I can't even think a word to express it. I mean, it was just so much more intense, so much more physical. You know, coming in all of a sort of the McDonald's, American guys are going to go at you to see what you got and really challenge you. So I remember Rafe like going right at me right away day one and just kind of letting me know like, hey, this is how it's going to be. This is the level we play at, especially, you know, even TJP.

I'm sure you remember him who's just a, you know, really intense player and really good defender. And so just day one was like, okay, it's on. And then I just remember being in awe of how good Paul was. I mean, I played against Paul in high school. Obviously, we did and we knew him. and I knew how special he was, but he had, you know, improved his body, and he got stronger and, you know, extended his range.

And I just remember he would absolutely dominate every single day and take up, you know. And then once, you know, we did our, you know, conditioning tests and all that stuff, it just you didn't have any time to get bored or homesick because you were so busy just in the grind of everything that started literally on day one. When during this process did you fall in love? love with Dave Matthews band. I always liked Dave, even when I was in high school. I mean, all my buddies, we used to, you know, go see him in concerts and stuff.

And then, you know, it's unfortunate because that story kind of took a life of its own. It's funny. Our SID, Dean Buckin, who I'm still friends with, like, every time he sees me, he cringes because he feels horrible about that story, you know, just taking off and getting out of control. Because it was funny. I, it was like, you know, what did you do in your summer vacation? And it's like, well, I, you know, I woke up, go to lift weights, and then go play pickup, and then go to the beach. And, you know, oh, I saw Dave Matthews fan.

And it was like, oh, you saw Dave. I'm like, yeah, I'm a big fan. They had two shows in Southern California. And then, I went to my buddies. And then, you know, we road tripped it up, you know, to see him in the Bay. So I saw him up there. And then they were in Kansas when I was in Kansas. I saw him four times last year.

And then all of a sudden it turned into, oh, Eric's not focused. He's the next Bill Walton. You know, Dave had. you know, just traveling with the band. He's a groupie. I saw him on the state. It turned into this complete, you know, out of control story. It coincide with me having a really good sophomore year

and then going to my junior year and struggling and then having two really, really good players in the calls when Drew couldn't coming in. The minutes get, you know, shared. And then all of a sudden, you know, I don't love basketball. And it's, you know, Eric sucks and the whole deal. So it really spied out. out of control quickly and, you know, we've all had, you know, public struggles. And so, you know,

and it was funny. I just saw Mark Sanchez talking about the other day on sports about losing your starting position and how painful that is. And I remember, I mean, it was really, really hard, you know, losing my starting spot and then, you know, obviously it was happy for Nick and Drew for succeeding, but I couldn't listen to Dave Matthews Dan for a while because people could have asked me about it. I'm like, dude, it's just a band I like to see. in the summer with my buddies, you know. It's not like I'm, you know, you know, loading up in Winnebago and traveling all over the country.

So, you know, it's funny, like, to this day, like, I'm still, I still like the music and, you know, I still go see them when they're in town and stuff, but that story, you know, just took a life of its own. Okay, so let's go back to 97, because you were, you and Kenny Gregory with the two freshmen that played a bunch. You had another guy. People forget you guys had Lesser Earl who was like as highly touted a high school player as there ever was. I went to LSU and he just freak athlete but just no real position.

But you guys had this unbelievable, in terms of name talent, right? Like to have Paul and Rave to basically NBA All-Stars top five picks. B.T. Billy Thomas, who became an NBA player, just a great shooter. Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo.

Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations. with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person

while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game.

This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out of my. Quarterback on office blue of 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves,

I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash will get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ryan Robertson, McDonnell's All-American, and became an NBA player who was a junior that year, right? He wasn't young.

You had you and Lester O'Role and T.J. Pugh and Nick Bradford and Kenny Gregory, how the fuck did you guys not get to a Final Four? Ketina Mobley and Tyson Wheeler. I mean, literally, we only lost, you know, we were 35 and 4 that year. We lost at Maryland.

I remember early. We just didn't play well. Then we lost at Missouri, which is always tough to play at. And then, you know, just, I don't know. Can I tell you, I don't know if this happened in the Rhode Island game. But let me tell you about our game. So we played you guys only once that year.

You guys won the league. You guys won the league. But the league back then was separating the north and south, and we tied to win the south or whatever. We were picked last in the south. Anyway, so you guys play. So we're getting ready to play it. It's the last game of the year.

And it's on ABC. And coach said swear to God he walks in. He goes, now listen, Kansas is coming in here with Lester Earl and Kenny Gregory and Ryan Robertson and T.J. Pew and Chenowitz. Brother, they're good. Now, when they got Paul Pierce and Rayful of friends on the court at the same time, they're better than us. About 8 to 10 points better than us. He's like, but you know, I've coached against Roy a long time. And he ain't going to take one of them out.

He's going to take both of them out at the same time. And brother, without rape of the friends and Paul Pearson that court, we're better than them. And basically our game plan, I swear to God, our game plan was like, hey, let's just stay close. Just stay close. And then at some point, both of those two big motherfuckers are going to come out of the game. And that's when we go. If you go back and watch the tape, we lost that game by four points. You guys were probably 20 points better than it.

Part of it was we started my boy, Tom. We started the seniors on Senior Day, which is stupid, right? It's like one of those, that's great to do when you're playing, you know. Yeah, but it come out at the first dead ball. Dude, we were down like, we were down like eight nothing. Like, we don't need to spot Kansas eight points. Right? We don't need to spot Kansas eight points.

That is not a good idea. It's just none. I still remember you, you knew our plays better than we did, I think. And we were running secondary break and you turned your head. to bait me to swing it, and then you'd pop back out and stole the swing path. I'll never forget that. No, you guys do,

here's a can't, so I know all the Kansas shit because we loved it. Yeah. So, yeah. With that box set that goes into like a little shuffle? Yeah, that's B1. Yeah, it's B1. The cutters come across.

You always try to jump it. It's a steal every time because you guys are like robots, right? Because the big guys pop out, and then the big guy, and then, you know, the point guard passes, and then screens away for the other big guy, and it becomes a shuffle cut into a post-up, right? And, I mean, it was a layup, but yes, I didn't know it was called B-1, but thank you.

I'll jot that down if I ever play against you. B-1, B-2, B-3. Okay, so which one is the one? And then you fake that, right? You fake the pass, dribble to the middle, reverse dribble, and duck into the big guy. That's B-3. Oh, it's B-3. Yeah, so B-1 is the standard scoring cut where, you know, Rake would come through and get a lay-up every time.

which Carolina ran really well with Tyler, you know, on that championship team and whatever year it was. And then B2 is a backdoor double. Basically you fake it and you backdoor the one guy and then Billy Thomas comes off a double screen. The other side. And then B3 is where you dribble, you then you reverse pivot. And that's when the back cutter hooks his defender.

Anyway, you stole the ball. And I remember you had a breakaway and I filed you pretty hard because obviously you can't shoot free to save your life. And it was just like, it's just like. the ball back. It was just a waste of time. It was a turnover on me, a steal for you, and then we just got the ball back. I think I made one out of two, but I don't remember. Actually, the next year, or the two years later, my senior year, when we kicked the dog shit out of you guys, I made the guys start following me early and I started making all my, making all my free throws.

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Your dream is waiting for you. Danpatrick.com, Fox SportsRadio.com. Some equipment described is optional. Do you remember what the locker room was like when you lost to Rhode Island? Oh, man. That was bleak. Because you remember the year before they got upset by Arizona. And in my opinion, I thought that

96, 97 was one of the best teams in college basketball history that never won. Had that team gone through and won the championship, it had been 40 and 1, and I would hang my hat of them saying

they're the best team in college basketball history. I mean, I could really honestly say that. Lose to Arizona, so there's a ton of pressure on us, and then, you know, we're at one seed, row down at an eight seed,

and I remember, like, in the second half, it kind of sat in and we're like, we're in a game here, we're down four or five, this is not going well. Coach starts freaking out and timeouts. He's getting on his pants and he's begging Ryan Robertson

to change the sides of the court, bringing the ball up. It just, it stuff was raffling out of control. And Catino and Tyson were on fire. So like, you thought coming the last couple minutes, and then when it's over to get a locker room,

it was just going through those emotions again. I mean, I was close to the teams of high school senior, like now being in a locker room, it was like, God, this sucks. You know, I knew Rath was done. Obviously, he's a senior, and we knew Paul was going to go. And it was just, I remember

Matt Tordy being just pissed off. It wasn't like, you know, he was sad. I remember our managers were, like, volunteers. I mean, I was kind of in shock. I looked over the side. My locker was next to CB. I looked at CB, and he was just, like,

on the ground with his head down. Like, I told people this a lot. Like, if you play a program like Kansas, if you don't win an air, championship, your complete season is a failure. I don't care if you go to the final four, okay, cool, that's fun. We get a banner. We get a ring, great.

But like, literally, if you don't win the championship, it's a complete failure. It really is, and that's the standard that Kansas has set, you know, and so it's a lot of pressure. It's too much pressure. A lot of times with players. And there's a few programs like that. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, you know, if you don't win it, it's a total failure, you know. So, but that's the, that's the goal that we set and that's the pressure we put upon ourselves. But I just remember how horrible that locker room was.

It was, it was nowhere you wanted to be. It was awful. So you had a very good sophomore year. In your junior year, that's when Gooden, Collison, Heinrich all show up. Why did you lose your starting? And like Roy's going to cut you out of the family now. Why did you lose your starting spot? I mean, part of it I think was like a self-fulfilling prophecy for him.

I really think it was like I, you know, I was the preseason all everything guy. I'd come back and, you know, I'd gotten on his nerves about a few things. And I remember like practice starting and Nick and Drew really good. And I was doing my thing and we were doing fine. And then all of a sudden, like, I remember Coach Holliday was gone for a practice or two. And I was like, like, ask coach, I mean, where's Coach Holiday? He's like, oh, he's going to watch Cincinnati's practice with Coach Huggins for a couple of days because he's learning how to, we're going to implement a press. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

He goes, well, yeah, we're going to start, you know, we're going to speed up the tempo. We've got so many guys are so deep. We're going to just, you know, we're going to press and change our style. And I remember thinking to myself, like, it's not what I kind of signed up for to come back for, whatever. And then, like I said, it just bowed out of control. there was, you know, there was a lot of, I mean, Kansas has five beat riders. Like the Yankees have five beat riders. Like, you know, so every article was, you know, channel with sucks.

And then it was, well, you know, Jason Whitlock's out there saying you got to bench channel. I mean, it just, it was public, it was private. It just, and then I'll tell you what it is. Like, and every player knows this. Like, confidence is, is everything in sports. I don't care who you are, what sport you play. If you have confidence, if you have confidence, and you, you'd, believe you can get something done, you can get it done.

Like what John Wooden said, whether you believe you can't. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines.

We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Welcome to my new podcast. learn the hard way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about,

wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys?

This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What?

Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Cliverts show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defining the odds.

Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the game. the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy

in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash will get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court licking his fingers while he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that Isaiah, you figure. figure it out real quick. Oh, yeah. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're probably right, right? Right. I lost my confidence. I mean, I just, I didn't, coach didn't believe me anymore. And so, I mean, just really, go ahead. No, what do you think happened to me? Like, you and I grew up together, like, I could shoot a basketball, right?

And then you get, you get to this, and you work all off season, and you're like, I got this. I got this shit. I got this shit. and then, you know, and then you're in practice and you take one shot, and your coach's like, no, no, no. Like, I remember I went Notre Dame, and when I was in high school, we played kind of how people play now, right?

A lot of side and high ball screen. Come down, shoot, transition, come off a ball screen and shoot or get to the basket to score, get to the basket, kick off. And he was like, no, you have to develop a mid-range game. We had no secondary break. There was no transition three. He was, I made a transition three. He took me out late in the season.

and you just start to go like, fuck, he doesn't think I can make it. And for me, I think my problem would be I would work my ass off in the off season and really work, work, work. And then I get in the regular season and it was so, it was so emotionally and mentally taxing to go through practices and everything that I got beat up a little bit in terms of how much I would work regular season. And so it would become kind of like first I would miss, I'd have a bad practice, miss some shots. He'd say something about me trying to prove to everybody I could shoot. I get down on myself. I would work a little bit less. And the less I worked, obviously, the results weren't as good.

And it just kind of snowballed, right? So I totally get it. Like, it's really kind of amazing thing. And I think the other thing that's interesting is both you and I, like, we're kind of shit talkers, right? We grew up and we would talk shit on each other on Rome show back in the day. I don't know if our coaches, because I do think that Eddie Sutton, he would tell me like, you're my whipping boy. You'll be my whip boy today.

you finish you, right? Like, hey, that's actually not the way to coach me in terms of my offensive game, right? Like, I actually... Yeah, and when you learn that, it's too late. Like, you learn that late in the season or late in your career. It's like, because, like, I play for a really, really good, I mean, a great high school coach who rode me and, you know, MF to me up and down the court and everything. But at the end of the day, like, I played every minute. And then he had, he had confidence to me to get the job done. And so it was, it was a two-way street, whereas at the next level, it's different because, and I'll tell you this, you said, what point did things

go wrong? I remember it was like two or three games into the season, and coach always made us run after practice. And we were doing sprints, and like, I didn't make a sprint one time, because we had a two and a half hour practice, and then we're doing 33s. And he just singled me out and made me run until I threw up and everything. And I remember he stood over me one time when I was, you know, puking in a garbage trant. And he said it very clearly and very loudly. He said, Eric, we don't need you, you need us. And when he said that, you know, now looking back, I probably should have had a conversation with my dad and say,

hey, you know what? I need to, like, hire an agent, go to the draft or transfer or something because this is him clearly saying that we've moved on from you, you know. And that, obviously, when you're 19 playing a KU and having a blast, like you don't want to leave that program, but that's now looking back at something I probably could have done and should have done. Yeah, actually, actually here would be my, Here'd be my, as I look back at my own, because Coach Sutton would like, you can't transfer, because back then you couldn't transfer twice.

You know, like I could have graduated early and transferred. After my junior year, I led the country and assist playing only 28 minutes a game because I was benched for like eight games. Yeah. And barely played. Anyway, the transferring would have been, but honestly, if I could go back, I would have just had an honest conversation with him. Right. Like, and I don't know if you were able to have that with Coach Williams, but just the idea of going and coach Sutton and like, look, like again I have these imaginary conversation with coach said had I just walked in and gone like hey listen man

if you will just let me fire up six or seven threes a game I'll make a couple I'll make a couple like right and and just not take promise me you're not going to take me out I'll take good shots because they're all good shots because nobody's fucking guard me right like you just let me take a couple everything else will open up like I know how to play back you don't have to tell me you can yell me all you want just don't I I just hate it coming out I felt like I'd never get back in. And we had other guys on our team, Joe Atkins and Adrian Peterson be like, fuck him, take me out. You can't win without me. And they'd come back in firing. I just mentally couldn't do it so I would shut down a little bit. And it would just kind of snowball. I'll remember clear as day.

We played North Texas my senior year. And all through preseason, I'm going against Victor Williams, a kid who was a really good player after I finished. He transferred his red shirt from Illinois State. And he was hard for me. He was quick as shit. He's a AAU coach workout guru in Kansas City now. And I had a really good preseason shooting the ball, but I was the only guy going against the legit high-level D1 player was guarding me because we didn't. We played, we didn't even up the sides when we played because coach didn't.

Anyway, so we come out, we're playing North Texas. And they're like not guarding me and all. Guy at the free time. So I'm like, fuck it. I'm going to shoot every time I'm open. We did the same thing. No, no, I understand. And I hit a couple against you guys, and so, and slowly started guard.

So, but this is early in the year. So they're playing off me. I take 18 shots. I make six. Now, I come in the locker room, and now I should point out, I had 18 assists or something, like something crazy in the game. Like, I had, I'm going to say, like, 15 points, and 16 assists and, like, two turnovers or whatever.

So I come in and I've always grabbed a stat sheet as soon as I come in Because like my brain is what's everybody else doing You know I do want to see my numbers But anybody who plays basketball at a high level Usually know your own numbers for the most part right You're like I know what I share from the field So he just rips the shit out of me And says you know all you care about is your stats and assist and points

And you 16 or I don't know He's 18 shots are you kidding me I've never had a point guard in my life. Take 18 shots, right? So it's like ringing in my head. Like, look, they were all good shots. I was open, you know? And, like, his whole thing is like, don't take anything you can't prove to me.

You can make seven or eight or ten unguarded in a gym. And I would like, I'd make these shots in a gym. Anyway, we play Wichita State the next game and I'm so petrified to shoot. And now they're like not guarding me at all. And it just made life really hard. So I totally feel for you with the confidence thing. Hey, Singles. Do you feel like a tourist in your own?

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I think growing up in New York and being surrounded by so much Latin culture was a blessing for me. I think I was able to listen to so many different genres of music from hip hop to salsa to maringue to rock, go to a bachata, go to regettone. And I think that that's what I loved about New York. There was such a big present community of everything. Support Coutura all year long by listening to the Mike Coutura podcast network, available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You know, you just kind of lost your confidence.

Like, how bad was it for you? Like, what was that like? How bad was it for me? I think it was about as bad as you get, you know. You know, the collateral damage starts setting in because I was, you know, projected to be like a lottery pick and all those different things and that was instantly taken away. So you see that go away with all the potential millions of dollars, which you know, we'd even know about when you're a young kid in college. It was just, yeah, it was a really tough time.

I remember like losing weight. I remember we were on a losing streak and we all rallied together to shave our heads in solidarity. And so I looked, I looked gaunt and it was just awful. I mean, it was just a really, really bad time in my life, I remember. And so, yeah, and so I'm just a member after the season. We lost to Duke in Winston-Salem, and after the game, coach was addressing the team, and he singled me out and called me out and said, you know, basically, you know, there's still a player there, and you have a chance to redeem yourself, and I'm going to challenge you to take it upon yourself to, you know, have a summer where you can, you know, become the player you were once before and, you know, have a comeback.

And it really inspired me, and I had one of the best summers, anybody had in the history summer workouts. I remember Jay Billis did an article on my summer workouts, and I was, you know, I was working out with Tim Gergeridge and Bob Thornton and up at UCLA Men's gym. I mean, I had a personal trainer. I did everything I could to get back to where I was, but you get back there. play 10 games and then things, you know, the damage is obviously still done. So I then obviously slipped to the second round, draft by the Knicks and started my professional career.

But that confidence is the most valuable thing any athlete could, you know, ever have. I'll tell you, I mean, health number one and confidence number two. And that was shocked for me. Yeah, it's interesting. It's, I think that in real sports, especially in basketball, confidence and maybe conditioning, and kind of culture, kind of all, those are three sees that I don't think in broadcasting

or in fandom, people understand, right? They just, they don't get it. And, you know, that there are times where, you know, guys just, you just run out of gas. Your coach may have, and I wanted to ask you about Coach Williams in terms of his practices in a second, where you leave your, you know, you leave your game on the practice floor, or your confidence, you know, sometimes coaches just don't know how to coach kids.

Sometimes kids go through these swings in confidence. Some kids are not that good, but they believe they are that good. And they just make shots to be like, that was Desmond Mason's thing. His senior year was coach would just fill him full of confidence and talk about how great he was. Now Hardy played and like, that dude can't shoot. And damn if he didn't make shots. And he became a great shooter just because he believed and he would work more because of it. whereas some of the rest of us, we got beaten down because he was, he never praised us.

Like literally never. Correct. Okay, I got a funny, it wasn't, I'm sure funny from your perspective, but let me share my perspective. So my senior year, this is your junior year, right, where you're suffering through, I think, or sophomore year, you're suffering through the Malaya. Yeah, it was your junior year. You're suffering through the Malaysians. We were only a year apart, but in high school, we were four years. a part but you sat out and transferred and redshirted and repeated grades.

Oh, dude. So, yeah, you, no, no. What year did you, what year did you graduate high school? 97? 97. Okay, I graduated 95. That's not four years. You should have been 90, you should have been 94.

Yeah, no, yeah, sure, yes. But you said in high school we were four years different. Like, in high school we weren't. In eighth grade, we would have been. Eighth grade, like, look, dude, when I was in eighth grade, this is true story. When I was in eighth grade, I finished eighth grade at San Diego Middle School. Okay, I was five feet tall, 105 pounds. So, so my, and my dad had told me like, you're not ready.

I wasn't emotionally, physically, anything ready for high school. So during that year, okay, during the 15 months between June of whatever that was, 1990 and September of 1991, okay, in 15 months. When I entered high school at Tustin High School, in 19. 1991, I was roughly like 5.9, 5.9 and a half, 100 in like 25 pounds, right? That's like how much I had grown during that time period. And that year was a total, total wash, like athletically everything. Like I understand that like redshirting and it's gotten to the point of being ridiculous and we copied kind of the Murinovich model a little bit. But there were actually what you were. You were not. 19 when you graduated high school. Yeah. So anyway, so we're getting off on a tangent.

Anyway, so my senior year, my senior year, so my junior year, we lose to you guys, the only time I played at Fogg, and that was the short time backwards game. But what people don't know about that game is a couple of things. Like, one, I had a couple open shots in the last possession that I turned down, and we ended up kind of getting no shot, and Fred Yoncine had missed a front of it. Like, we should have beaten you in regulation, and we didn't. And coach never won up there. Whatever.

And then we lost. Uncle Rico comments. We beat you. Fair and Square. That's how I went. Hold on, dude. Robertson catches the ball in overtime. And you fouled him.

He got fouled. He did not foul. He did not foul. I mean, we can put the video out. It is. Every year. I watch it every year. It's one of the, I mean, I went, Vital, who, you know, is, oh, it's one of the

most cause of a seed. Anyway. So this is junior year. We lose up in, in Lawrence. and later, we have to stay overnight in Lawrence. And so we go out to the village in to get something to eat. And who's there, but Ryan Robertson, who I'm jealous of because he's the starting point guard at Kansas,

and that's one of the places I wanted to go. Plus, he gets this fucking bullshit call on senior night to save him because he didn't play well. Plus, he doesn't like me because in Sports Illustrated, I said Kansas is really good except for their guards, right? And it's true, our guards were better than your guards. I mean, you know, Boschie's a good dude. a good coach and he ain't as good as Joe Atkins and nobody was as good as Adrian Peterson

and Desimason technically as a guard and, you know, I thought I was better than Ryan. So like, we had some dudes in the back court. Anyway, so I go up to Ryan and I was like, hey man, congrats. But God, that was a bullshit way to end a great game. And he's like, what are you talking about? It's fucking foul. We're talking like he was so defensive about it. That it was. So fast forward to my senior year and we don't play you guys until I think later in the year you're you're not playing very much he's going with the younger dudes with heinrich and colison and gooden and we kick the fucking dog shit out of you guys we're up so many points in the second half we went to delay game we just started running our delay game stuff coach calls the time i was like hey i gotta go to lawrence next

year take it easy we're not no fast breaks just take it easy anyway so you here's the big question. So we're up like, we're seriously up 40. And coaches, you know, doing everything he can to like, actually, wait, it was 18 in the first half and Boshi hits like an NBA three before the break. Like deep three, somebody doesn't guard him. And we come in and guys are screaming at each other like, who the fuck left him open? And coach is like, I'm telling you, they're coming, brother.

Boschie hit that three. Like, we were so petrified that all of a sudden you guys wake up. And, you know, second half starts and Desmond goes crazy and I make a couple of shots. And, like, when I make shots, the shit is over. I even made free throws that night. And so we're in delay. So it's probably, I'm, again, my memory is really good, but this part I don't remember. It felt like it was like eight minutes to go in the game and you guys start fouling me, right, to get to the bonus to make me shoot free throws.

And Boshi fouls me gets his fourth foul. And the staff turns out, sums up. Like, don't file, you have four. The ball comes in bounds, the very next play, and he fouls again, and he's like, fuck this. And he goes and sits down. And Coach Williams didn't stand up. Okay, so do you guys, like, there was a lot of pummeling wins you guys have. Do you remember, it felt like you guys gave up?

I remember my minutes were really short at that time, so I didn't really have a chance to contribute to do much. But I remember that game was over before it started. It was like, within the, before the first TV timeout, it was like, We were down 12. And like I said, that was a part of the season where, you know, we hated practices. We were, you know, losing games. It was, I mean, we lost 10 games at the year. And so, and I don't know, that was towards into the season.

So we had lost, you know, eight or seven games, something like that. And coach had tried everything. He, you know, canceled practice and we go bowling. He ran us. I mean, we did everything. And it just, we just couldn't, we just wouldn't click, you know, just, I don't know. you know, there was, that was just a tough time of the year. So that was one of those situations where I've never given up, but it was just, I mean,

I remember I vividly remember, you know, Jeff making that foul and kind of walking up the court and tucking his shirt and like plopping down. I remember that, but like, yeah, that was not a fun night. I'm sure it was for you guys. No, actually, actually, go ahead. Tell me your funny story. I have one too. Go ahead.

My parents had seen a million games at an adult, so they were like, hey, we want to start going to see a game. like in these other big 12 towns. So my parents were that game. And I remember, I don't if you remember this, but I think it was my, actually my senior year we were playing there, but my mother was. No, senior you didn't play there. Senior you didn't play there.

Okay, well, then it was my junior year. My mother was battling cancer. And she, you know, she was stage three, but she was going to make it. And I remember, you know, your fans, there was section right behind our bench. and they would chirp at us, which is fine. But then one guy said something like, yeah, go home and cry to your mommy, Chenoweth. And so the subject of my mother was so delicate at the time.

And you know, my dad, he's an ex-college football player, six to, you know, 300 bills at the time. I looked back and all I saw was my dad going straight for this guy. And I was like, oh, shit, you know, this is going to be national news. this is, like, and luckily, there was a state trooper that we had behind the bench. He heard and saw the whole thing and grabbed my dad and basically said, don't do this, isn't worth it. They kicked the guy out, and that was it.

But I remember, like, just one thing after another, that was just a horrible, horrible year, horrible time. My mom was sick. I was losing my, you know, my draft spot, and I was falling in the second round. We were losing games. It was, I mean, I lost one of my best friends. at home who passed away, you know, in a motorcycle accident in the summer. It was the pits.

It was, you know, just talking about it now brings back all those emotions. Sorry about that. I mean. I know, but, you know, what the good news is, my mother, you know, she's 20 years past. She's made it through, you know, and I ended up getting to play pro and things are going well now. So we made it through, but it was a really dark, tough times back then. Yeah.

I mean, like, again, my junior year was crazy dark, too. Like I led the country an assist, but I went through this thing where I got, I got thrown out of, I got a tea. And we lost to Florida Atlantic and I got a bad tea. And we lost this game to a shitty team. I actually played, I had 18 assists and played well. Of course you did. And then we played UCLA at the pond and I get two T's in the first half. We lose by three.

And so I'm like, and then Glenn Alexander gets eligible. So I'm the odd man out. and he benches me for like eight games. You know, I'm petrified to shoot to do anything other than like be a robot out there. And we massively underachee, we were a top. I mean, if we would have played all our small guys and played small ball the way that we played small before everybody else played small with Mason at the four. We played Mason at the five one time against Texas and came back and made it a close game. But he just wouldn't do it.

Like we could have won the whole thing playing small. Anyway, my point. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet. internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions,

the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsLice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field.

and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough.

Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different. intentions, bro.

Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now.

What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a guy. game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out.

Quarterback on office blue of 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledana. in our podcast point game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nasree. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night bases on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing.

That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court licking his fingers while he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you. you get your podcasts. It's like my junior was the shits too. Like it was,

it's really, really hard. And, um, I can't imagine like one of the great things about being me. Like, look, in Stillwater,

I was a pretty big thing, whatever, but I'm still a six foot white guy who can throw on a hat and a hoodie and disappear. Like you're a seven footer at Kansas. And anywhere you go, everybody knows you. What is,

what's that? I've always wondered like, What's that existence like when you literally cannot hide? It was awful, man. And I remember, like, there's, so the KU has a school paper, the UDK, and, you know, they pile it on a campus, so everybody reads this thing. And in the UDK, the University of Daly-K, there's a section called the Free For All. And you can call in to an 800 number and say whatever you want,

and they will print it in the free-for-all section of the UDK. And so literally for about two months straight, every time the first comment was Chenowah sucks. And then it was, I mean, literally, these are drunk frat boys or whatever calling in, and they would print it. And so, you know, obviously all school papers have the crossword puzzles, so you always want to get to that. But like, I remember just, I grab it every day, sit down, and boom, it's right there. And then you look around and you're in a classroom with maybe it's a lecture hall, there. 200 people in there. People are kind of looking back at you.

And then maybe you're in a smaller class. There's 40 people in there reading it and looking up at you. It's like you cannot escape it. And in Lawrence, Kansas, there's 100,000 people in the city. There's 20,000 students. Everywhere you go, everywhere you walk. And it was really, really hard. Really awful time.

The one saving grace was my roommate and teammate, and teammate Jeff Kerry, who became one of my best friends in the whole world. And we would, you know, he was just incredibly supportive of me and such a good friend. And we, I don't know what I would have done without him because he was a big guy. And so we'd go through practice together. And he saw all the stuff that was going on.

He saw me lose support from every different angle. And he was really incredible. And I had a really nice girlfriend at a time. She was really helpful too. But like if it wasn't for those two people, like I don't, I can't explain. It was really dark times. It was really, really hard. So if you could, if you could go back and do it again,

you would have left after your left when he kind of when he's... No, I would have left after my sophomore year. So I, listen to this, so my sophomore year, I was the third player in Kansas basketball history to average a double-double in conference play.

Will Chamberlain, Rachel Friends, Eric Chenow. The only three players at that time, there's been players to do it since, but in that time, it's only three players in Kansas history to average a double-double in conference play. And then I think I average like 14 and 10 or something like that.

Had a really good year. I mean, I showed, all my strengths and all of different things. And I remember, like, I, when you get recruited to go to Kansas, the coach gives you this, like, four-year plan. Okay, freshman year, you're all-freshman. Seconds, you know, almost, you know,

almost in all-conference. And then sophomore year, you're going to be all-conference. And then junior year, you're all-American, and senior player of the year. And so you had all these different goals that set out that you wanted to attain. And I saw Rafe's stay all four years. I saw Scott Paul State for all four years. I saw Paul State three years.

And back there, guys just didn't leave that early. I remember Elton Brand left and it was like, wow. You know, he's only a sophomore. Well, so I had a meeting with coach and he was like, yeah, Eric, you know, you can go out and be a top 15 pick, but you can come back and be a number one pick, you know, and I'm like, yeah, coach, I'm going to come back and be a number one pick. Well, people, what I know now, especially what I do for living now, your window to get the NBA is very, very, very small, very small.

And some guys can trick the system and sneak in the first round and get four years in the league and wash out. Some guys can get to the NBA. But for the most part, your window to get there is very small. So if anybody ever tells you, hey, you're the top 15 pick, you have to go. You can buy all the insurance in the world. You can do everything you want. But there's too many different variables that can happen when you come back. And so think about this.

when you come back or the combine or whatever, it's a devaluation period. When you're playing in the games, you're playing while, you're doing things you're supposed to do, it's an evaluation period. So when you come back after a really good year, all scouts are going to do is try to pick apart what you can't do, right?

So I remember talking about the scouts. I don't know if I totally agree with that. I'll give you a example. And look, this is a discussion. This is not a, we don't have to go in, feel free to hop in,

okay? But you take, I remember Harrison Barnes. okay and um can't he he got to the warriors and didn't know how to play i talked to the people of the warriors and they're like yeah he doesn't know how to play i understand but but he was a great player in the system but but wait you're you're telling me but you're you're saying what you're telling me what saying one saying one saying one saying one saying one thing and then saying the opposite right you're saying that harrison barns should leave should leave after his freshman year um but

he didn't know how to play right so it's like because of the system he came from, though. That's different. Like, he didn't... Well, let me show me my perspective here, okay? So, again, and I don't, I don't echo everything that every NBA scout says. Because everybody has a different system of evaluation, right? But for me, you know, I watched him.

He played two years at North Carolina. And obviously the second year, he averaged like a point and a half more. He shot roughly, he shot like two percentage points higher from the few. field, he shot I think 1% or 2% percentage points higher from 3. But the game was much easier, but like,

look, he, I thought he got better. Now, he would have been a top 10 pick if he came out his first year. He would have been a top 10 pick, come out of his second year, but there's the this, do you improve, do you, like my, I understand the idea that all they do is pick you

apart. All they do is pick you apart. My, my, my thing is I try and pick apart like, hey, has he improved? Is he getting better? What's his body? Like, I think, honestly, you need two years of college because one, I want to see you the second year where you're more comfortable in a system. Because as you said earlier in the pod, it's like your first year, shit's moving so fast and you're just a robot. And you're just, and they're not really, you know, look, we did this at Oklahoma State. Like my first year even as a transfer, like, they don't really coach you the first half of the year because they don't want to freak you out. And they don't want, and then all

sudden like January comes and they start screaming at you in film like what the fuck are you doing here you're like well sorry you didn't yell at me last week what happened um whereas you're like your second year now you road games don't bother you coaching doesn't bother you you can just kind of be like your second and third year's where you kind of find your your and and i think for scouts you need that second year to see all right has this guy figured out can he run an offense can he figure out scatterports has he improved from year one to year two what's his body look like because guys bodies changed dramatically between 18 and 21. And so, like, you're kind of, you're kind of saying, hey, you should go right away,

but then say, like, a Harrison Barnes, like, he got there and he didn't know how to play basketball. He didn't know how to play NBA basketball. That's what I'm saying. He didn't know how to play in an NBA-type system. He didn't the Carolina system, which, you know, second-day break, B-1, B-2, B-3, which we discussed in all the different things. But he didn't, I'll know if I'm not going to name the name, but someone from the warrior said, He did not know how to play.

He didn't know how to play. And so, but no, there's no exact formula across the board. Every situation is different. And I'm just saying, in my situation, I'd play two years. Yeah. And I remember, and I know Mark Worcene seen very well. I've known him forever. And I've known this since I was on the fifth, sixth grade.

He told me, I remember two years later, I saw him. He said, Eric, we were going to, he was in Portland at times. He said, we were going to trade up to get to 16 to pick you. He said, there's no way in hell you would have fell past 16. And if you look at that draft, the first big guy drafted was Elton Brand. I don't know what he went. It was high. The second seven-footer picked was a European who was playing on a juco in Kansas,

who went 12, who never played in the NBA ever. I don't know the guy's name. I've got to look it up. But I remember sitting back watching the draft, and I was like, what the hell? Like, I had known at that point I'd made the wrong decision. I probably should have done because you could get there. But on the flip side, I had the goals of getting to a Final Four being an all-American, all of different things. And I'll tell you what, Doug, I don't know when the trend started of one and done, but Lester Earl is another example.

Lesser Earl should have never gone to college. He should have gone straight to the NBA at a high school, and he would have played the league for 10 plus years. He went to college. He transferred from LIS and sat out, knee issues, bad medical care. and then all of a sudden he's done, and now he's starting a new life doing something, not playing basketball. You look at the paths and decisions that people take, and if they have the right guidance and make the right decision, it's amazing what can happen in your life and in your career at such a young age. This episode is brought to you by Royal Caribbean, an award-winning global cruise line.

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This episode is brought to you by Sunchips. Sun chips are making it easy to snack a little smarter this year, so you don't have to give up your favorite snack. Reveal what else you're never going to give up in 2022 for a chance to win $1,000. official rules at never going to give it up.com. No purchase necessary. Enter by February 27th, 2022, 17 plus 50 U.S. D.C. and PR. So here's the question about Lesterill. Okay.

There's a question about Lesterillard. I'm going to disagree with you in terms of he might have, yeah, like I, you talk about fooling. By the way, it was Alexander Radovich from Barton Community College. Yeah. And then Cal Boulder. Quarter played that. Cal Boulder.

went 17 to Atlanta out of O'DU. He played three years in the league. Man, it was a bad, big guy draft. Bad, bad, bad, big guy draft. So that's your window. That's what I'm talking about. Right, right. So...

Even if I wasn't ready, at least you get there and you get washed out or whatever. At least you make it, you know what I mean? And that's the past the balance is getting there. Right. I would say, though, that it's like... I think for the NBA, I think it's a mistake to take the guys out of high school,

because you can't tell. Like, I remember Sebastian Telfer. that was at 04, whatever the big, or 05, whatever the big, maybe it's 05, the big, the last big high school draft. It was Dwight Howard was in it. And the McDonald's All-American game was in Oklahoma City. And I was broadcasting it for ESPN. And, you know, you watch the workouts. And every night we'd go to beers, the place that became Durant's bar with some other bar there.

And I remember sitting around with a bunch of these guys was like, which one of you guys is going to lose your job over Sebastian Telfare? They're like, what do you mean? I was like, he can't play fucking basketball. Like, he can't play. They're like, what would you mean? I was like, look, he can make the passes, and, but he can't shoot. He doesn't know when to do what. He just knows, like, if I get the ball, every time I get the ball, my job is to try

and break the guy down, get to the, get to the rim, and if help comes, kick off for a dunk. Like, that's it. Get buckets. Yeah. Right, but it's not even just get buckets. It's just like every, and that's not how you play basketball. Like, you've got to move the, sometimes the best. play is just to pass the ball and

get the fuck out of the way. And he, like, he had no idea how to play. And you could see in his interactions, like he didn't really understand how to be a leader, even though guys looked up to him. He was so interested in being Bassie that he wasn't, like, you just watch you, like, this is

a disaster. This is bad. That kid needs college. He needs a coach. Motherfucking him for a couple years. For every example like that, there's another example of someone who did make the right decision. by going early or what happened. And so, and for him,

I mean, his older brother playing the NBA, he was, he was, but his being too. He maxed out at a young age. And Melvin,

his brother, Mel, he had a half brother, step brother to play in the NBA. You mean, Jamel Thomas? Yeah. I don't think,

I don't think, I don't think Jamel ever played in the NBA, but I play with him in the ABA. Yeah, well, I played with him in Nick Summerlee. So I know him, he's a great guy,

by the way. He is a great guy. But, yeah, I just, I mean. And a good player. And he went by five. I wasn't allowed to come.

So we played, this is true story. I played with Phoenix with him in the ABA. I think we were, I actually, this is a true story. I didn't even know until a couple weeks ago that her nickname was the Eclipse, the Phoenix Eclipse. I played for a team and I didn't know. And Mazz track was my coach. Mas. How about that?

So, Mazz is my coach. And he goes. And I just got the plane from Israel. I left my team in Israel to come play for Maz and for the Phoenix team. And they had, and Jamel was there. And I played against Jamel in college at Notre Dame. And I was like, I was like, what up, Mel? He's like, don't call me that.

I was like, excuse me? Like, I go by five. Like, what? Like, Jamel's my government name. He was in this like, that's my government name. And call me five. Okay, so. I remember.

Go ahead. Yeah, I was summer league with a name. Tybs and Jeff and Gunney only called him now. They did, and I don't think he's going to tell the coach now to call them out, but we call them out. Okay, so you get drafted in the second round of the NBA draft. Okay? What happened then? On a flight out to New York, you know, staying at the Marriott Residence Inn on Barker Avenue

and White Plains, New York, and then it was me. They drafted Michael Wright, God rest of soul, after me, two picks after me. was me and him, Steve Clifford, Tom Tibido, and at SUNY purchased every day for six hours. I mean, it was literally a hot gym, no AC, and we would do, you know, workout starts at 9, so you get there at 8.30 or so, get dressed, get out there, and stretch, loosen up.

We do two hours, literally two hours of spot shooting, and all hanging, different drills, whatever, break, get lunch, go back, lift weights for an hour, cardio for an hour, And mind you, this is New York in the summer, which you lived up there. You know how it is. It's brutal. But every day, all the way leading up to camp. And I remember, you know, then obviously I was, you know, on September 11th,

I had an appearance with Pfizer Pharmaceuticals with doing a healthy living promotion. So I was on 42nd and second at the Farmerys Pharmaceuticals building doing a promotion there. when the two planes hit, I had to obviously walk up to the Upper East Side and take a train out of the city back up to White Plains. But I remember, you know, going through that summer, going through that event on September 11th, and then kind of feeling like I earned my stripes, you know, I thought, okay, I have a chance to make this roster.

And I remember like a week before camp, Jeff Engendig pulls me in his office and goes, hey, hey, Eric, I just want you know that you're not going to make this team, So do whatever you've got to do. It's something of the sort like that. And so I was like, it was pretty hard pill to swallow just because, you know, I'd worked so hard I'd been through so much. I was developing relationships with the guys on the team.

And then all of a sudden, at the 11th hour, when all camp spots are full, I get the rug pulled out and I now got to scramble to find a place to go. And so later on, I heard the backstory behind this where Scott Layden really, liked me and wanted to pick me, and so they're in the war room of draft night, and I guess guys were throwing out names, and Scott laden kind of pounded the table and said, oh,

we're picking Chenoweth. And everybody, half the room was good with it, half was like, oh, God, here we go. And so, it just, you know, obviously, they kept Michael right until the very last second and cut him with $40 hours left on the waiver line, and so, you know, it was a really,

I'm not making excuses, it was, I did you know, they gave me an opportunity, which I appreciate. But it was a really difficult situation for me. I went to camp of Sacramento. They had 15 guaranteed spots. Basically, I went there to get a pair of socks, whatever, and go to camp, get the field, and then it was off to the D-League and overseas, and my journey and career started from there. But I do remember being drafted and how good of a feeling that was and how exciting it was. And it was a really nice moment to share with my family and especially my

mom who had just beaten cancer. And so it was it was, you know, a sign of a comeback, not a full comeback, obviously I wish I'd have gone in the first round, but it was, that was actually a really good time in my life opposed to the heat two years before, you know. Yeah. Okay, then you, when you had a, I thought you were going to make the Lakers. Like, that one made sense to me. Yeah.

I remember, I went to camp with, like I said, it was the Nixon, I went to Sacramento for camp in D-League, and then in 2002, I went to camp in Seattle, got cut there, I went to the D-League. and I remember I was playing in the D-Leak, and I got, I remember it was Valentine's Day of like 2003, the coach, he cut me on a tarmac. He's like, Eric, this isn't working out. We're going to let you go. And I said, okay. So, if you call me with a bunch of different opportunities overseas and whatever,

and I said, you know what, I need to get back to the drawing board. And I remember I came home. I hired a guy named Todd Norman as a trainer at the cutting edge here in Orange County. So I just dedicated myself to improving my body, getting mentally, you know, strong, physically stronger, all those different things. I started working out with an individual coach named Jody Gardner, who's out here is a really good individual guy. And then when all the NBA guys

came back for the summer, Sean Rook, Sean Marks, and all those guys, you know, I just dedicated myself to becoming a better athlete, becoming a better player. And I remember the Lakers, you know, invited me to the Summer League team, and I played really well in that team. And then they invited me to camp.

And I remember, you know, Phil I felt like Phil liked me, Coach Jackson liked me because I, you know, challenged Shaq at the time. I'd gotten up to 295 pounds, and I was pretty well put together at the time because before I'd been a little skinny. So I'd put my, you know, I was benched 330 pounds. I was squatting 400 pounds. I was in really, really good shape.

I was really strong. And so I feel like the fact that I could challenge Shaq in practice. And so, you know, I had that entire summer every day at the facility working out. And then, you know, working out with Coach Rambis. And the whole staff there was fantastic. And so we get to camp, and actually Phil started me in a couple of games, which was pretty crazy. We only had a T&T game at Staples Center.

And Phil wrote up on the board, Chenoweth. I looked around, and I was like, this is a shoot-around. And so I knew all day I was to start for the Lakers. And I'll never forget, Janaro Pargo. We were walking to our cars, and he was like, damn, Chan, you start with the Lakers, man. And he was, like, teasing me about it, and Kareem Rush was. and Luke Walton and Brian Cook, all those guys were like, man, like, and I, for a split-second, but I was like, I'm going to make this team. This is crazy. And then I remember Steve Kerr,

who I, who was a buddy, and I really respect him. He was like, you know, I've been monitoring Eric for his, you know, short career so far, and I think he's good enough to make it, and I think Eric's going to make this roster. And I remember my dad hearing that. I mean, everything was aligned to make the team. And then right toward the, Brian Russell, heard his business, knee and he required surgery. He was in about for two months. And so Mitch called me in and said, Eric, we cannot cut someone if they're not healthy. You have to pass your exit physical in order to be released. Well, he cracked his knee and had surgery, whatever, and he said, we can't cut him. So we're going to cut you. And that one really, really stung because I've done so much to get to that point.

I really developed a good relationship with Shaq. Kobe even respected me. I felt like a little bit. We did the Kings drill where there's four big men, 101 in the post. It was me, Shaq, Carmelone, Samson, and another big guy. I can't remember who was a horse grant.

One-on-one in the post to five. Shack, Carmel, all these names. And I won the first one to five. I won it. It's called the Kings game. And when we came back to the center and, like, Phil was like, we won. And I didn't say anything.

I just stood there with a mouth shut and Shaq was like, you know, the big photo woman. And Kobe looked at me and I gave me like a punch on the chest, like, all right, O.C., because he comes from Washington County, he called me O.C. And that was like a feeling of like, wow, I'm going to make it. But anyway, and then Brian Russell, fast forward two years later, I was in camp with the Nuggets.

Same thing happened there, too. I had a really good chance of making the team, and he got hurt again. And they had to keep him. So that was my fortune, and that's how it goes. You know, but still, that month with the Lakers in camp was the best experience I've ever had in my life in any level. It was so funny. So the thing I liked about, I was at the Lakers three different times in, I did the, I did Summer League, was it 01 Summer League? 01 Summer League.

So this is when you were at the Knicks. And I played in the Summer League team. And in all three years I did, like they had a vet mini camp before you went to Hawaii. and like the first year, I literally flew back from Italy. I was with the team in Italy and I thought I had this shot to me. It was me and Mike

Pemberthy and I did everything better than Mike Pemberthy except that dude could fucking shoot. I mean, he could just fuck, he coaches with him now. I mean, he can fucking just shoot the fucking ball. And I didn't really, and like triangles a bad offense for me, but

you know, text helped me get in there. And then they like me and they're like, hey, you know, go play over seas and come back. So I came back from Russia and now I was good, but they had also brought in Pemberthie and Joe Crispin, who can also fucking shoot. And both those dudes made it. And I didn't. And then the third year, those guys, I think the third year, those guys were both kind of embedded in the roster. And by then I was like, I was good. Like, I could hoop and I had gotten rid of some of the mental shit. And I understood the offense. But, you know, it's like, look, like a limited shooter

no matter how good athletically or off pick and roll you are in that offense as a third point guard, like they don't really fucking need you. But what I loved about the Lakers was they treat every dude like I even when I knew I wasn't going to make it. Like I'd come in, I'd get massages, I'd work

out, like they treat you just like you're on the team but there is something to that when you walk down that as you know you walk in you say hi to the receptionist and then you see these pictures of all these incredible Lakers like fuck I could be the Lakers, I'm like this close. I know. And then Mitch comes in, he's like, hey, man, we think you're great.

You should really think about the D-League, and we think about calling you up. And I was like, wait, that, that, I was just walking down thinking I was making the team anyway. Okay, so. Yeah. So what you do now is you have, you ensure, you ensure, uh, some of the great athletes in college. Like, how did you get into this and what do you actually do? Yeah. So, thanks.

Good question. And so obviously, retired in O.A., got the coaching for a couple of years, made no sense. So in 2012, my full-time job was finding a job. And I almost took a job at ADG. Philip Anshut's as a, you know, KU guys. So you floated on a resume and almost did something there. And right before I did it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, Philip Andrews is a KU guy.

I want to make sure that people understand this, okay? Okay. This is really, this is my big thing, okay? And I understand what you're saying about going straight at a high school to the pros if you can. The problem with it, by my estimation, is there'll be so many kids that go. They'll end up in the G league. They don't understand. Everyone talks about the value of college, and it pisses me off.

And there's no value to college. First, like, there's lots of jobs you can't have without a degree. But the big thing you get in college is, like, you're part of that school and basketball programs family. And here's the perfect example. If you wanted to get into coaching, I'm guessing, Coach Williams, Carolina family, there's, you could find NBA or college. Somebody would find a chair for you, correct?

a very, very small chair, grinder chair, but at least the chair. Correct. The job offers I got was like 30 grand as a video coordinator in XYZ. Right, but like, but like, look, CB started there and look where he is now. And look at, like, that's, I mean, like, I understand that Coach Williams did. Jared had. I mean, that's, I mean, look, Coach Williams started as a manager. And now he's, you know, he's arguably the most successful coach, you know, in the history of the sport.

So, um, okay. the other part is like, like you said, like Phil Vanchez can make a call for you because he's a Kansas guy. And I don't know if enough people understand like this is really the way it works is, what you need college four is when shit, I need it.

Like before Boone Pickens died and I didn't have, I didn't, I knew him. We weren't like best friends or whatever. But if I really legitimately needed a job, I would have called Boone and said, hey, can you help me out? And he would have said, tell me who to call and I'll figure it out, right? That's, that is there is a value to that.

100%. And I talk about this all the time, too. We can talk about, you know, a million different things with the image of the stuff. But the network that I've tapped into and work on a daily basis with KU has changed my life. So think about KU, which is an amazing institution. It's a great place to go to school and people to work with. I think if you went to like Stanford or Ivy League school, like the value in those relationships with all those people in Silicon Valley and all different things, that is dismissed so much. And it's ridiculous. And so really, really, quick. So my full-time job was finding a job, so I reached out to Antichu's his secretary, and he got to him, and I said, here's my resume. And along with that resume, was Dana Anderson, who was the president and chairman of the board of the Mace Ridge Corporation, which is a massive strip mall company that he was chairman of the board on, who was a huge donor for KU, who helped me with her resume, helped me prepare for interviews,

all the different things, you know, guiding me along, who was amazing in my, you know, transition out of basketball into the professional world. You know, he said, here's who you got a call to get to fill up. And so I got Phil. So Philip literally said, I'll float your resume. That's all it was. This is coming down from the man.

And actually, Stu Heathcote, who you might know, was a revoc guy, UCLA guy. He's now global partnerships picked it up and got me an interview. And he was going to find out a way to get me in there, you know. And that's all because of the A and Aegee. It really is. So that's what people need to think about. and we can talk about how valuable colleges, you know, down later.

But so I got, so I was going to take a job there, and I grew up with the Boone family, Aaron, and Matt, Matt's my best friend, my son's godfather. And so Aaron's best friend is, his partner at a firm called Park Advisors and Beverly Hills, Ryan Strzorg, and so they were like, hey, before you take that job, you should meet with these guys in Beverly Hills, they do insurance for athletes. And I was like, oh, well, I had a policy when I played at Kansas,

I know how this works as a consumer. Let's figure it out. So we had a two-ar meeting, and they kind of hired me on the spot into this goal. So that was in 2013 or September of 12 is when I joined this firm. And so what was great for me was I was begging job, coaches for jobs for three years, and immediately turned my hat and said, listen, coach, I'm not going to bug you about, you know, getting a job. Here's what I do now.

Here's how I can help you. And every coach came back and said, oh, my God, I don't understand this stuff. I know you. I trust you, like you're our guy. And so it was immediately plugged into, you know, Carolina, Kansas. Well, Kansas took some time, obviously, but, which is a side story. But it was immediately, I was like, here's your opportunity. Like, you know, whatever coaches recruited me 20 years ago, we're now saying, hey,

I got this guy. What did he qualify for? What should we do here? And my business model was simple in that I called coaches and I called compliance officers because I remember when coach, when I was at KU, I had a coach, my dad said, Eric, she should get a policy. I went and talked to coach. coach said, yeah, go talk to Richard

Conston down the hall in compliance. I'll take it from there. So I knew all I'm going to do is call compliance directors and develop relationships with them. And so as soon as, so now fast forward eight years later, I'm my own firm now, and basically what happens is I monitor all the draft boards for college football,

baseball, and hockey, and as soon as guys have rolled in school, I'm reaching out to the school saying, hey, here's the student athlete that just enrolled, here's what he's what we can do for him, and then we go from there. If they utilize my service is great, if not, you know, it's fine too. But what really took off in my career, which was crazy, was when I played, I had to get a loan and pay off a loan once I turned pro to pay for the insurance.

Well, my second year in doing the business, the NCA changed the rules with the student assistance fund, allowing them to have the schools have full autonomy on the SAAF. So the SAAF was designed for emergency room visit bills, you know, diapers, a player has a child, you know, flights home for funeral, suits if you travel, things like that. Well, once they're in full autonomy, Texas A&M said, well, we got a big offensive alignment. And he's a policy.

We're going to spend 50 grand on his policy. And so it's a copycat, everything. And so it kind of took off like wildfire where two years I was helping these kids get loans to buy the insurance now was, hey, we're going to do this and we're going to pay for it. And so it really took off from there. So the schools can pay for these policies now? Correct, correct. Yes.

And they can pay for it out of what's called the first. student systems fund based on cost of attendance cost of living a couple factors each school gets a check from the nc aa for approximately 250 to 300,000 dollars where they can use for whatever they want some schools use the whole thing for insurance some schools use don't use it but i'm you know out of 60 schools i work with i would say about 95 percent of them use it but use a portion of it for insurance and so and i'll talk about how great colleges because of what it can do for you later in life how about this i have a client on a team in the big town private school in the big 10. So he's getting a scholarship.

There's only one private school in the Big Ten. I hate to be a big. You're kind of getting that. Well, actually, no, it's not private. Now, I think about it. So, but it costs about $45,000 you're going to go there. Okay? So he's got a $45,000 scholarship. Between Pell Grant, Grant, and he'd all these different things he get to check for $27,500,

which you can use it as discretion for whatever he wants. And he's got a $2 million policy so of his career ends. He collects $2 million to start in your life with. that's a pretty good life, if you ask me. I mean, I think that's a pretty – that's better than playing in a D-League. That's better than, you know, I don't know how good it is – a life of it is being on a practice squad in the NFL or the minors in NHL or the minors in major league baseball. That's pretty amazing to have for three or four years while you're on campus

and then to go to the next level, which kind of goes back to another conversation. I'm sure we'll get to. So, yeah, so that's what I do. I work with, you know, college athletes all over the country once they turn pro. I work in conjunction with their financial advisor or an agent. I'm really busy with it right now because guys are in NBA training camp, and they may have $150 million on the table, but they want $176 or whatever they want over four or five years. So we'll bind them in a $20, $40 million, $50 million policy, whatever they need

to cover their future earnings until they sign. What they sign, obviously, the insurance has done its job. and then I follow up to sell home life insurance for estate planning purposes. So, yeah, so that's all I do. I just do insurance. I don't do investments or tax prep or anything like that. I just do insurance, which allows me to work with college and professional athletes. And so doing that eight years, and I love it, and I'll do it forever.

So that's what I'm doing now. Okay. Last, last, last, I got two quick ones. One, has anybody actually ever executed one of these policies? He collected on one? Yes. Yeah, I've had several claims paid. I've had a college football loss of value claim paid.

I've had an NBA basketball player loss of value claim paid, and I've had a college football, PTD claim paid. I don't name names. I'm not that guy. There's other brokers out that will tweet out all that stuff. I keep it confidential. So there's three products you get. There's permanent total disability, which is career-winning coverage,

whether you know you can't play your sport ever again. You collect on PTD due to an injury or illness, right? there's loss of value. We assess your draft spot, and we assess, okay, you're projected 10th in the draft, we're going to set a threshold at the end of the first round. If you get hurt or have an illness, you fall out of the first round, you'll start collecting each pick you fall. That's loss of value in a nutshell. And then there's a new product called critical injury, which is two categories of injury. So if you, category one being a major injury, such as a torn ACL Achilles, you know, Rotator Cup, Tommy John, if you're a pitcher, loss of cider cancer.

You'd collect $250,000 in the category two would be a major muscle group tear. So torn growing, bicep, tricep, hamstring, quadricep, you'd get $100,000 benefit. So those are, you start with the PPD and you add loss of value or critical injury as a rider. Loss of value is kind of going away. There's been a ton of claims paid on it, so they're only doing it for the top, top guys. But most guys that they're a solid player are going to qualify for the critical injury rider that they can add to the P2D policy. Okay.

And then here's the last thing. I'll kind of give you the floor. But, I mean, like, look, people know that I value the college system for among the things that we've said. But the name and likeness fight, which to me, it's going to be pay for play, right? Like, guys don't really have. And in fairness, when I tweet out that guys don't have a value, they don't have a huge value. But what you do is you pool together all your values. And that's how the coaches and the athletic departments have these local.

sponsorship deals, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I feel like people were operating on old news in terms of, like you pointed out, kid having $27,000 to spend at his discretion tax free for a year to play in college. Like I don't, like we've gotten to this point to which

look, we're good. Enough is in fact enough. And part of being in college is you got to manage whatever finances you have. You have to learn and you're never going to starve because now you have unlimited meals and things like that. What's your take on the name and likeness? Well, it's, I mean, obviously, governors are signing it left and right, so it's going to

have to be something that's going to be addressed before 2023. But, you know, personally, like, I think the perfect example is like, you know, Zion was a good example. So how about this? I remember it was like last June or something, like last May or June, I had a couple apparel companies reach out for quotes for Zion because Zion had an offer. from an apparel company for about $40 million on the table, right? So they're going to say, take this money and just work out with the cones and you go to the draft and then, you know, we'll see what happens from there. So he's going to get $40 million to sign with an apparel company.

And so we wanted to buy an insurance policy. And so I remember talking to John Giovanni, who I talked to a lot about, you know, players and different things. And we were like, well, if he doesn't play this year, he's not going to prove himself, John was kind of like, and I don't know quote John or speak for him, But he was like, well, if he does that, he's going to watch, you know, he'll probably fall to, like, the 12 to 20 range because we don't know who he is. I mean, he can dunk on these small kids in South Carolina, but, like, can he play, you know? And so you got $40 million from an apparel company.

You're probably a 12 to 20 pick. Well, he made the right decision and went to college to play for Duke, which is probably one of the best three platforms in college to be on. So had a great year, player the year, goes has a good run in the tournament. and then what's he do? He signs a near $100 million deal with Jordan Brand. He's the number one pick in the draft signing for it's going to be $40 million over four years. And to look at it. He tripled his market value by going to college and having one year there.

And he's the 1% where the rest of the kids have, don't even have those offers. You know what I mean? It's like. Correct. So I feel like you run the risk of destroying the entire system for a guy. like Zion and a guy like Zion ends up benefiting from every moment that he plays in in college. Correct. And I'm going to add to this one more thing to you know this as a former student athlete. There's sports we call non-revenants, track and field, you know, all these different sports that, you know, wrestling, what have you,

Oklahoma State makes money wrestling. But they don't, you know, generate any income. All those sports are going to go away if they completely change the model and it's a full pay-for-play system. Correct. And that really bothers me because I had so much. many friends in college, and I know about stories of people in horrible economic background and systems. Where they have their only chance to get out of what situation they're in is to get a scholarship, playing a sport to go to a school, to get a degree, to better their life, and move on into the workforce.

And that vehicle is playing a non-revenue sport at whatever school. That's going to go away. And that's what really makes me sad because there's so many kids out there that, I don't care what sport is. golf or track into whatever, that those opportunities are going to be gone because all the money is going to be going to the players that people say, buy rights, earn it because people are turning on the TV to see them. But they're trying to TV to see them because they're playing at Duke or Kansas, UCLA or Arizona

or whatever. Right. Nobody watches Dealey games. Like, I play the Dealing. It's a wasteland of broken dreams. It's better players. Yes. But it's worse basketball.

Yes. And it's like, you know, I think there needs to be some kind of common ground where they are compensated something. We've got to figure that out. But it can't just be, you can market yourself because then all the big schools are going to have, you know, I'm going to get a million dollars from Longo Toyota to play basketball at UCLA. And it's just, that's just what's going to happen. And so you can't regulate it. So they've got to just find out something that all parties can coexist. And this beautiful thing of college basketball and college athletics isn't just wiped away or changed or, you know,

unrecognizable after 2023. That's just my humble opinion. Hey, man. I'm really happy that all the stuff that you went through as a player, as a human being, now you're a dad, a husband, and you're making life. And glad to call your friend. I appreciate you join us.

We've got to do this again. We've got to do the Rome. At some point, we have to do the Rome discussion. We'll do some groups discussion as well. But in the, in the, with time as the essence. Thanks for joining us. Of course.

Appreciate it, Doug. Thank you. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. Well, I hope you enjoyed that. Great conversation. We've been long-time friends.

No, friends. Long-time friends. And we live close to each other. We'll do it again. Maybe I'll talk some ball after a big Kansas game or something like that. You can listen to the Doug Gottlieb show every day,

3-6 Eastern, 12-to-3 Pacific. on Fox Sports Radio app or you can download that podcast if you'd like. In the meantime, thanks so much for listening. Don't forget to download, subscribe, rate. Tell a friend, tweet it out, whatever. Next week, I think what we'll do is we'll probably have a special guest and preview the NBA because the season gets sent away on Thursday,

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