The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Luka Garza, Ayo Dosunmu NBA Projections; Brown Univ. HC Mike Martin on Taking Over Alma Mater, LONG Ivy League Covid Hiatus

Episode Date: February 5, 2021

In this episode, Doug discusses the NBA future of Iowa's Luka Garza, and Illinois star Ayo Dosunmu, and is joined by Brown University Head Coach Mike Martin. They discuss his Massachusetts upbringing, taking over the Brown program where he played, and how he's dealt with not being able to practice with his team since last March due to strict Ivy League COVID protocols, and what he's learned in the process. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hey, what I'm Doug Ghaly, and this is the all-new, all-ball. Oh, basketball all the time. I will tell you that we have a special guest on this all ball. Mike Martin is the head coach of Brown, and he's a bit of a young fella, right? He got the job at 29 years old, and Brown hasn't played basketball this year. He joined me, and it was right after or in between double workout days,

but the first day they've been allowed back in the gym since early March last year. Think about that. Kind of around his team. What has he learned? How is he connected with his players? How did he get this job? You know, why Brown?

He was actually offered to go to play at Harvard. He chose Brown over them. Amazing. Of course, launched his career, his life, et cetera, et cetera. He'll join us upcoming. I think you'll really enjoy that. Okay, there's a couple things I want to get to in college basketball.

that I've seen, and I'm fascinated by. Got a chance to see Illinois and Iowa last week in person. And it's interesting to me because I love watching Luca Garza play, and I really like watching Kofi Coburn play. Now, Kofi, I got a chance to coach in this Pangoose, All-American Camp. It's not a ton of coaching, but you could be around the kids. And actually, Posh, Alexander was my point guard. and Kofi was my big guy.

They're both having really impactful times in college. But Kofi was just, he was just like a light bulb. He just lit up the room, man. And he was such a great kid to be around. What's fascinating is if you went back 25 years ago, both those guys are lottery picks. And Garza has an amazing touch. He knows that whole position. He knows how it's angles.

He can score in a post. He can shoot threes. Do a little bit of everything offensively with the basketball. but I don't know how he plays in the NBA meaningful starting minutes because, you know, he's like, he's just like a college kind of Ennis Cantor. He's a bucket, but everybody that goes at him is going to be a bucket too. He just struggles in terms of lateral. But if you think about it, think about all the other parts of his game, which have improved,

the defense is a little bit better and it could still continue to improve. I do think he probably needs to drop some weight to become. I'm a little bit more agile. And I'm guessing that if you asked him, he would say, yeah, I need that strength and weight to hold position. He's a tremendous low post score. Just touch has all the moves, incredible fluidity, great hands. And they do a really good job of getting him the basketball.

They're as good a post-feeding team as you're going to find in college hoop. They're really, really good. And I like when they play two bigs, more than when they play their kind of four-out or sometimes five-out sort of look. I do think that they lack the guy who can break you down. But because so many of them can play out of the post, I think Connor McCaffrey can play out of the post some. As well as Garza, I think they can break down defenses in that way.

But Iowa, and they just, their problem is stopping people, but they do not have any problem scoring. Illinois, I.O. de Sumu, you know, he played increasingly, he was so efficient in the game that I saw. And you watch him. Now, I don't know how much game he has in terms of creating his own off the dribble. So I don't know if he'll be a star at the next level. But to play for Brad, you've got a guard so he guards.

And he can clearly, he's improved his shooting. He's a tremendous layup maker finisher. I think he's going to have a good career. I think playing for Brad Underwood is a very good mix of what he needed, the discipline he needed, defense. So he still needs in his game and some of the way in which they're creating offense for him. But I like the Illinois team. There's no reason to think they can't compete in that second weekend to get to a Final Four.

They're good. They're deep. They change paces depending on who they come out the bench with. Like that's a good team. And Brad has like quietly turned that thing around. Meanwhile, you have the Michigan states of the world, continue to struggle. You know, I don't know what happens to Michigan State in the future.

Obviously, they need better point guard play and better leadership. They did start to hit some shots against Iowa, so maybe some of this stuff turns around. But I saw those two teams, and I was intrigued by both big guys, but there was a little confirmation there in that I don't think either have great NBA. Like, Kofi Koburn to me reminds me of a little bit better version of Jehidey White, who played at Georgetown did play in the NBA. Just a massive human being, massive. But not really athletically lateral,

laterally athletic enough, not really quick enough in terms of a rim runner and, you know, a guy who can roll and run to the rim. I think that both make the league, guards a slightly more impact because he can score, but neither are perennial starters. I've also gotten a chance to see a lot of Mountain West basketball. football. And the top four teams are far above, far above the, the, the bottom teams in that,

I mean, I think Boise's really, really good. I get a chance to see them in person taking on Nevada. Nevada is a team that I think has, it's young, a bunch of potential for the future. This year, they've still been successful. They're in that, that mix of they're not one of the top four, but they are closing and improving fast after sweeping you and, OV going back to the last weekend, but now they were swept at Wyoming showing their youth. Before we have Mike Martin join us. One of his former players is one of the two stars for the Wolfpack, Desmond Cambridge, Jr. Stud, originally from Nashville, Tennessee, 15 a game, four and a half rebounds, two and a half assists.

And then they have Grant Shearfield, who is a sophomore. He grew up in Kansas, that moved to Fort Worth. He was like sixth grade, was at Sunrise Christian Academy, then was going to go to UCLA, play for Alfred. Alford, Alford gets fired. He goes to Wichita, starts half the year. Now in his sophomore year, he's playing for Nevada. 18 and a half a game, five and a half assists a game,

steal and a half a game, four boards, shoots 43, 36, and 87. And I mean, this kid, he's really good. He's tremendous. I don't think they have this year the overall older bodies it's going to take to compete. They got Zane Neeks. They also have Warren Washington, who's a transfer from Morgan State, and he barely played his first year, didn't play sitting out. So he's a redshirt sophomore, but just kind of coming into his own, like, they're going to be good.

They're going to be really good in the future. Kwame Himes, a kid from Arizona. he kind of splits time at the center position as a shop blocker can also step out and make some threes with Warren Washington. I, you know, Alford, some people didn't like Alford at UCLA. Obviously, it didn't end crazy well. They didn't get to the Final Four the way that Brad Holland did. Let me see Brad Holland. That Ben Howland did.

Brad Holland, of course, former UCLA guy, USDA. But there's something about Alford's ability in the mountain, West just dominate. And I think we're like a year away from seeing Nevada as the top 25 team. And I don't think any of these guys are pros. Sherfield might be a pro eventually. But it's like he's building a program that has some sustainability. So it's going to be pretty cool to see exactly what they can do.

Speaking of Desmond Cambridge, Jr., he began his career playing for our guest. Our guest is a talented head coach at Brown. Of course, Brown, part of the Ivy League. They have not played a game and will not play a game this season. During his time at Brown, remember the Ivy League has really cranked up in terms of the level of talent in the league. You go back to 2018, 2019, he won 20 games for the first time. They got to the CBI quarterfinals.

Last year, they were 8 and 6 in conference play before, of course, it was shut down due to COVID concerns. And they have not obviously played. He only had really one tough year, his fourth year there. but as a former Brown player, he got the job at 29 years old. How did he get it? What's he learned? How would he change?

All these different things. Let's welcome him in. He's head coach of the Brown Bears, Mike Martin. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I-Heart Radio app. So you grew up in where in Massachusetts? Like, how do I pronounce it? Agarwam.

But say it. When you were growing up in Agawam, how would you say it? Agamom. I don't have the Boston accent. I know, but does everybody, everybody else have the Agawam, the Boston accent? No, not in the western part of the state. Really? You know, it's interesting.

It's interesting. I think people having spent a bunch of time in the Northeast, I don't know if people understand, like, there's a perception of, like, Boston, like, well, everybody in Boston is, you know like it's like you know all the incredible colleges there and it's very sophisticated like you go to Western Mass and a percentage of rednecks there is just as high as it is in any other rural part of the country is that it set a fair fair parallel so the people the folks in Boston

Eastern Mass would say there's nothing west of 495 495 is like an interstate 20 miles west of Boston so like for me yeah I'm out in the middle of nowhere if you're from Boston they pretty I don't even know what Aguam is other than we border Springfield, which is where the Hall of Fame is, and we have a six flags. So I think that's fair. Yeah, yes. Six flags is big, but it's definitely, it definitely kind of gets your redneck on.

Like I've always been to that, like, Kenny Chesney concert in Foxborough and like you go around and you're like, dude, there are a lot of rednecks here. You're like, yeah, it's like Massachusetts is not all Boston. Anyway, growing up, what was you? How did you fall in love with basketball? Yeah, my father was a high school coach for 20 plus years. And, you know, when I was young, he had had some great teams at Commerce High School before I was born in Springfield, Mass. He sent Mark Hall to Minnesota. You know, Nate Blount played Temple.

He had some great players at Commerce. And then he took the job at Adelam High School, which is where I grew up. And, you know, I grew up going to his practices, going to his games. I was the ball boy. I loved it. I rode the bus. And that's how I fell in love. with the sport and, you know, just fortunate that, you know, my father was a coach, much like yours.

How'd you fall in love with basketball? So my father was a longtime high school coach, 20 plus years. He had some great players at Commerce High School in Springfield, Mass, Mark Hall, who played Minnesota with Kevin McAil, Nate Blunt, who went down to Temple in Philly. But then, you know, what I remember is when he was the coach at Aguam High School, which is in the suburb and right outside Springfield. and, you know, just grew up as a ballboy, three, four years old, going every practice, riding the bus, going every game.

And fortunate that my father was a coach and fell in love with the sport through that, probably very similar to you, you know, growing up the son of a coach. Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, my dad was when he was a head coach until I was six, and he was an assistant coach at Long Beach State until I was nine or two. 10 and then he was an assistant coach at Oregon State for a year, but he went up there and we stayed in Southern California. And then he was, you know, he kind of bounced around doing stuff and started as an AAU coach. So I didn't have necessarily like a high school team to, to like be, to be drawn to.

Like it became my brother's teams, my brother's high school team. I was a ballboy for when your dad was a coach. I found every coach's kid has a guy who when they grew up, they idolized, like that was their guy. Who was your guy? Who is the guy who's like, that's who I want to be? Yeah, so his best player at Aguam was a guy by the name of Jeff Peterson, who won the LaHovitch Award, which is like the top player in Hampton County,

Western Massachusetts, Berkshire and Hampshire counties as well. But he brought my father's team to the district finals, where they lost to a good chickadee comp team. But that was probably, I was six, seven years old, and like I wanted to be Jeff Peterson. Yeah. What was your dad like as a coach? Yeah, intense.

You know, he was a, he played football, baseball, basketball, basketball in high school. He ended up playing basketball in college at North Adams State because he, he blew out his knee so he couldn't play football. But very, you know, we're going to play hard. We're going to outwork you. We're going to defend you. Intense.

You know, he demanded a lot of his players and, you know, coached him hard. Yeah, it's interesting. that now of his style what of his style is how you coach what of his style is the opposite of how you coach so we're going to coach you hard we're going to demand an awful lot we're going to care about you we're going to love you off the court just like my father did with all his players you know i think i was really influenced from glen miller who's my college coach at brown he recruited me to brown he got me into the the profession of coaching and you know i think i picked up a lot of you know coach Miller's attention to, you know, detail how to run offense, how to, you know, prepare a team.

So I think I would, I would say I'm a blend of both. It's interesting, right, because that generation, like my dad, I never forget, we ran like, little Ralph Miller one four high, right? Maybe a little high ball screen, but like the old school, like just put the big guy at the top of the key, right? You know, and dribbling space off of it. And like that was kind of it. Like my son asked me like, dad, what was,

what was grandpa's practice? Like, I was like, well, you know, did fundamentals, you know, a ton of passing every day and then did transition stuff and then press break,

you know, because like for you, everything's press break. And then just a little half court offensive stuff. He's like, wow, you run a lot of plays and sets. And I was like,

well, I feel like basketball is a lot more technical now. Like, it's just coached, like you said, coached differently. You know, I played for Brady Sutton.

and he never drove a play. Not one time. Never. Not a single time. Now, Sean, his son would drop the plays and he would grab it and show somebody specific in terms of spacing. But he never like, hey, we need a bucket. Like, let's run this at the end of the game. And it was just amazing.

When I coach, situational coaching to me is really important. Like we had imbalanced plays that were good and we scored on, we frankly scored on them. because I was passing the ball. But I spend, like, that's an easy place to not just show off, but to steal points, right? And I think that is important, whereas it does feel like there's that old school of coaches was just like, how can we get you to play hard? How can we get you to play unselfish? And then can you play a little bit harder and a little bit more unselfish?

And then, like, they also would kind of adjust to the, which kids? could they MF and which kids that had needed the pat on the back? Other than that, there wasn't a lot of magic to it, right? Am I crazy to think that's a little bit of the old school mental mentality of coaches? I think it's so true, and I think the best coaches now have a great blend of both, Doug, right? I mean, that's fascinating to hear about Coach Sutton, never drawn up a play. And obviously, you know, who had more success than him, hardly anyone, right? You recruited really good players.

He coached you love you, and he demanded an awful lot. And, you know, you think about him and his career, and it's, it was so incredibly successful. But, yeah, I think like we're like old school fundamentals, values, play hard, play unselfishly, share the ball with, you know, some new school, new age, you know, spacing on offense, defensive concepts. I think that, you know, gosh, I'd love to hopefully one day be a great blend of boat. Yeah, it's a, I think. best are. I think the absolute the best are. Why did you pick Brown? Like you're growing up Western Mass because back then the Ivy League was Penn and Princeton. That's it. Like those are the two. Everybody else, you're playing for third. And they didn't recruit me. So the current

Penn coach right now, Steve Dunning who was on staff and Coach Dumfie, obviously, they had incredible teams. I joke with Steve, you know, we're good friends now. They didn't think I was good enough and they're right. They won a lot of Ivy Championships. I was recruited by Brown and Harvard, you know, quite a few Patriot League schools. You know, so you turned down Harvard? I did. I did. Frank Sullivan. So Frank Sullivan was a coach at Harvard before Tommy Amaker, a great guy, good coach. Unbelievable guy. Yeah. And, you know, I, I just, you know, I clicked with Coach Miller and his staff. Call me crazy. I love the state of Rhode Island. My family in Rhode Island. You know, here's the deal.

My father was a coach and a teacher. My, you know, became an AD. My mother was a long-time middle school teacher. Academics were always important. It was like, all right, I got Brown and Harvard, the Ivy League. It's really good. You know, you can't do better than the Ivy League from an educational academic standpoint. I want to go where I'm going to be happiest, where I felt like I'd fit in better.

And I just, you know what? It was a gut decision. Coach Sullivan was shocked when I told him I'm choosing Brown. He had me on the phone. was so gracious about it, but he's like, really? Like, you're Western Massachusetts coming to Harvard. That's not, and, and they did a good job recruited me. I just, maybe I was naive.

I don't regret it for a minute. It was the best decision for me. I met my wife here, unbelievable teammates who were lifelong friends, and I'm probably not to coach at Brown if I didn't play here. No question, no question. And it's always interesting on how I don't know if high school kids understand how big a decision that is. how it said, do you remember as a kid, choose your own adventure books?

No. Okay, there's like a lot about dragons and I hated to read. And I remember like in fourth grade or fifth grade or something, they took me to a reading specialist and they turned me on these choose your own adventure books. And it was basically you get to the end of a page and you had to make one of three decisions and the book would be turned to page 10 if you want this, page 15, you want this. Right. And it would, the book would change based upon what decision you made.

And that's kind of how life is, especially picking a college, right? It's where your best friends, probably your spouse, when you need a job, those are the people, the alums that you're going to count on, wherever that is, that's where you're probably going to live, you know. Brown's a fascinating place because it's in the Ivy League, but I guarantee, it's like the, it's probably the least known, right? It really is. It's that, and I'm not in any way trying to be disrespectful.

Like I, but like, you say like, what are the Ivy League schools? Like, oh, Princeton, Harvard, Yale, you know, like Princeton, Harvard, Yale. And then, oh, yeah, pens in the Ivy League. Then who else? You know, Cornell, I know it's beautiful. They got the bridge. They got some other issues there. Okay.

I got Dartmouth, which is like the big party school out in the middle of nowhere. Right? And they're like, who am I forgetting? Who am I forgetting? Who am I forgetting? Forgetting Brown. So you show up at Brown, you're freshman. What's Brown like as a?

university. Yeah, it's an awesome place. I mean, we always, every year, Doug, we always are, you know, either one or two or three in these all these surveys of who has the happiest students, who are the happiest college students. A lot of it's because we have an open curriculum. There's no required courses at Brown. There are zero core classes, zero requirements. So like my thing that recruits is this, you never be in a class, you don't want to be in at Brown. No one's going to tell you you have to take this class to fulfill a requirement. It's, it's, It's an awesome place, unbelievable faculty, and really focused on the undergraduate experience.

We have a big medical school. We have a few graduate programs, but much more focused on undergrad. When I was a freshman, my eyes were literally opened. I didn't know what Wall Street was. I didn't know what Goldman Sachs was. I didn't know any of those things. And now the guys and girls I'm going to school with are getting these jobs, these internships,

and all these amazing opportunities. But I was focused on playing hoops. Coach Miller, I was part of his first recruiting class. He took over a program that didn't have a ton of success. I had a chance to play early. I started as a freshman and, you know, I had great teammates, Earl Hunts, our all-time leading score. He was a year ahead of me.

He's now a partner at Goldman Sachs and trustee of the university. You know, just went to school with unbelievable people with my closest friends to this day. And, you know, we had some success. We had four straight winning seasons. The first time that ever happened in school history. We went to the NIT, my junior year. We went 12 and 2. Fran Dumpfey's team at Penn went 14.

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Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenge. challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get to flyin. He running up the court licking his fingers while he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah? you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

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hope from a hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff, rant, recommend some of the most legally dubious advice known to man. If I'm calling you, even if you're on your phone, let it ring twice. One ring is too scary.

Oh, cream of chicken soup. Hey, cream a chicken suit. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrat as part of the Mike Pulura Podcast Network available on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. No, we lost two close games to them. Was that when they had Jerome? No, so Jerome's a little bit older than me. You got on Nick Quay, Cocoa, Archibong, Andy Tool, the head coach at Robert Morris.

They were really good. And he was a good player and a good, he's a good coach. And then I think that team lost to Oklahoma State. They did. In the NCAA tournament. In 03, exactly right, in Boston. So that team at Penn won the big five. They were four in O in the Philadelphia Big Five.

They went 14 and O in our league. We lost to him by three in a game here at Brown. Chris Berman came in and introduced the starting lineups from the balcony. He had a place electric. And I still say we were 10 and 1. they were 11 and 0 or whatever it was. They had zero losses. We had one going into the game.

I tore my ACL the week before, and I still say if I had played, we would have at least tied for the title of 13 and 1 for one game playoff. I'll argue that with anybody, but unfortunately, can't go back and untare my ACL. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1-800flowers.com.

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Brought to you by Nitsa and the Ad Council. What, for somebody who experienced it at its peak, what was the Palesa like to play in as a visiting player? I'll tell you. I went through my first game ever as a, uh, Not my first game, but my first time ever being in the plesteros my freshman year. Again, they didn't recruit me. So I went there, played them.

And we had just lost a tight one to Princeton the Friday night. And we came out there and played them and I fell in love with it. It's an awesome place. I was fortunate. I coached there for six years. My junior year, we went down there and we were undefeated in the league. They were undefeated in the league. The place was sold out.

What was on the rollout sign? That's the big question. What was on the rollout sign when you guys came down there? All I remember is I had like a little bit. goate and they were killing me for my goatee. I mean, the students followed me. I don't remember the rollout, but I remember them being all over me for my goatee. And I don't think I've ever grown facial hair since because of it. Have we lost some of that? It feels like, like, look, you and I, we love the sport and we love the college sport. And I have my own thoughts on the negative

of influences of that sport of the sport but I do feel like I hate being that guy like back in my day but and maybe even previous to me but in that area like it was better the fan interaction was better because the games weren't all on TV I would say as part of it um the transferring I think really hurts it because you don't know like say who where I have I've no emotional investment in a lot of these players. And I think that not just the transfer, but guys so many have come and gone to the NBA or to what they think is greener pastures.

But even for the Ivy League, which the talent, I believe, is better now. Or over the last 10 years, Harvard changing what they changed in order to, and Tommy getting in there and recruiting a higher level, has raised everybody. Like you've had, you had Desmond Camers. Like that's a big time.

That kid can play. Princeton's that kids that can play. You know, like it's the whole level of the league is great. But I don't feel like there's the same passion at a Penn, at a Princeton that there used to be. And of course, that's the trickle down from the, it's not the same at the big boys. Am I wrong? You experienced it. Obviously, this year I want to get into.

But do you feel like the fandom, the home quartered, environments has changed for the worst over the past five years or so. Yeah, that's a great question. And I'd have to give it more thought. I mean, everyone has so many other options to do with their, you know, with their time now. I mean, like, it's when we played in the late 90s, early 2000s, there was no, not as many options for college students. So like I think there's still a big game on a college campus. I still don't think there's anything like it. But the consistency of sellout crowds and passion, you know, in our league, yeah, it's probably a little different.

I can't say you're wrong for sure. But like, you know, we've had, you know, we've had some great crowds here. We've averaged more people the last couple of years because we've been good than ever before. So, you know, we've got to make an event. Like I think as a coach at a college program, if you want, like, you've got to make it an event on your campus and you have to get everyone involved. And we say all the time, when we win our next Ivy title and we only have one in our program history and that was 1986. But when we do it, it's going to be everyone. It's going to be the community.

It's going to be the students. It's going to be the president, the AD, the donors, the fans, everyone, because that's what it's going to take. And we want everyone to kind of feel that ownership and sense that, Doug. So, like, come on, it's an event. We're going to, you know, we've got Yale. They won the league last year. And we've done a fairly good job of creating some momentum and some excitement here at Brown.

But I can't tell you. I can't say you're wrong. You get done playing. And now you're like, okay, now what do I do, right? Obviously, you have a brown degree. You got a scar on your knee to show for your time there, become a very good starting point guard.

You went and played in Ireland for a year, right? What was that experience like? So I was a two guard. I didn't handle it well enough to play point. But yeah, so I interviewed, you know, I did like, you know, my best, like I just told you, my one of my best friends and former teammates is now a partner at Goldman Sachs. I see him and all these other folks getting these great internships, these great jobs.

So I interviewed and I accepted a job with a boutique investment bank called Adams Harkness and Hill. I was going to go work for them in Boston. I got the job offer in like November or December of my senior year, which I was really excited about. And then the season ended. We had another good year, my senior year, not quite as good as my junior year when we were 12 and 2, but we finished 10 and 4 in the league, second place. And I'm like, you know, I know I'm not going to make a lot of money playing, I got to keep playing. I just, I wanted to keep playing. I did it.

Had a great experience and, you know, turned down the job in investment banking. I never forget calling the firm. It was a couple of brown, former Brown football players who, you know, were partners at the firm and helped me get the opportunity. And thank them, but told them I had to pursue this. And, and then I came back and coach Miller offered me a job to be an assistant coach at Brown, volunteer assistant coach. But I was going to be an assistant coach. I was going to be on the court. I was going to be on the road recruiting. He was 22 years old, about to turn 23, and I didn't need to make any money, and it was the best, you know, so many people started as GAs or administrative ops.

I started as an assistant coach at the Division I level recruiting nationally, and it got me a great start into the coaching profession. Where did you live in making no money? I lived in a little apartment on the east side of Providence, like on the third floor of a donor, an alumni house. He let me live up there. But my girlfriend at the time was in Boston. So I probably, she's now my wife. I probably spent more time up there than I did down in province. Providence is a really cool and kind of unique underrated city.

For somebody who hasn't been, like you come to town, go here to eat. Where's the place? Gosh, there's so many. I know. I would tell you, Sienna. You have to go to Federal Hill. Federal Hill is like, you know, little Italy. But like you can get it all.

food, Italian, you get a great steak downtown. I'd go to Sienna on Federal Hill. There's, there's so many good options. The city of Providence, it's big enough that, you know, you can have great food, great theater, great, you know, places to go out and shop and have fun. But like every, almost every town in the state, and you can get within them, you can get anywhere in the state within an hour. There's no two points in our state that are more than one hour away. But there's so many unbelievable beach communities here too, Doug. And in summertime, Newport, Narragansett, Westerly. It's an awesome place to live and it's a really underrated part of our country. Okay, so how'd you get the job? Well,

our AD, Jack Hayes, who has actually just, you know, left to pursue other professional opportunities. He was just hired. He was the AD at Hofstra before coming to Brown. It was 2012. I coached a guy you know well, Zach Rosen, who was an awesome point guard at Penn,

and he was Big Five, an Ivy League player of the year. And he helped us have a great season. He led us to a great season. Jerome Allen was our head coach at Penn, and Dan Liebevitz was on the staff. We had a great staff. It's an unbelievable staff, right?

Yeah, I mean, Dan becomes a head coach. I mean, Jerome is a legend in the league. and you become a head coach off that staff, and we know, anybody knows Zach, uh, anyone knows Zach knows he had an incredible career. Um, okay, so go ahead. I'm sorry. No, no, no.

And prior to that, John Gallagher, who's the head coach at Hartford was, Harvard, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so crazy. And, uh, so anyways. Two head coaches of Hartford on one staff. That's right. That's right.

Uh, well, so they're never on the staff at the same time. I understand, but it's interesting, right? Hartford hired two guys essentially have the same staff, one to replace the other. when Dan decided I've had enough. It was amazing. And the funny thing is so Steve Dunahue, after the Sweet 16 at Cornell, got the Boston College job.

John Gallagher was going to leave Penn to become an assistant at Boston College. When John left Penn, then Dan was interested in coming back to Philadelphia and helping Jerome and our staff, and that opened the vacancy at Hartford. But yeah, small world, crazy story. The job was open. I was 29 years old. We had had success, like I said, at Penn the last couple of years. And, you know, I was an alum.

I knew pretty much, you know, I had a little bit of a relationship with Jack Hayes, not much. He had just come from Hofstra, but we knew a lot of mutual people. And, you know, there was a lot of people involved that I think, you know, Jack listened to that knew me and, you know, knew the type of person I was, you know, my acumen as a coach and hopefully ability to lead. And here we are eight and a half years later. Okay, so eight and a half years ago, like kicking over an Ivy League is not like taking over an Ivy League is not like taking. over anywhere else. It's not just young. Like, you can't go like, I'm going to get rid of these fucking dudes, and I'm going to get

some new dudes, and we're going to get some jucoes and some transfers and let's roll, right? You kind of, this is what you got. And then you got to go recruit. And, you know, you go back eight and a half years ago. You know, the landscape of the league was dramatically different. Okay, so what do you remember about your first year in terms of, okay, now you're setting your own practice plans? you're setting your own recruiting.

You're telling you have to hire staff, but the budget, you have budget constraints. You also have to be realistic, not just with grades for the Ivy League, but there are kids in the Ivy League who they're not going to consider Brown, right? They're just not. So there's the, it's not an easy job when you first take it over. And you have your current players that are there before that you're not running up. You don't run off dudes in the Ivy League, right? what's that first year like?

Yeah, so I was hired June 1st. So, like, you can't even get recruits in late because admissions timelines. And even transfers couldn't come because the admissions transfer admission deadline had passed. So it was like I was hired my press conference was June 1. And the guys that were left, that was my team. And I was so fortunate. I inherited great kids, good talent, just not a ton of depth. We had 10 guys on our roster the first year, you know, just through, you know, a couple different regions.

We had 10 guys on the roster once we started getting going. And I thought we had a good year. We beat Providence College at home. We went 7 and 7 in the Ivy League. We finished and fourth. We beat Princeton at the end of the season. If Princeton had won, they would have tied with Harvard for the Ivy title. And we ended up beating them.

So, you know, Harvard won it outright. Those guys, I had no idea what I was doing. I, you know, thought I knew everything, like all assistants do. And, you know, what I asked those guys to do, they did it. They did it with unbelievable passion and spirit, and they did it with great chemistry. And, you know, they made me look like I knew what I was doing. And, you know, recruiting. Go ahead.

So offensively, okay, every assistant who sits there is like, man, I get my shot, like, we're going to, we're going to do this. Yeah, we're going to play fast, right? Whoever sits next. And I guess, I'm guessing whoever sat on the Marymount's bench, you know, was thinking, we're going to play even faster. Like everybody wants to play fast, then you get in charge. You're like, holy shit, we play fast. We might just get run out of this gym.

And again, you had played and you'd played a certain style. You'd been assistant, which is a little bit different style with Jerome specifically, obviously. And then you'd grown up with your dad who had his specific style. How did you, your first year, what'd you run? Did you say, hey, let's run the same shit you guys been running? Did you put in your own stuff? What'd you do? Yeah, no, I put in my stuff.

We played slow, though, because we had 10 guys. And I was like, if we're going to win, which we want to win, we don't, you know, we want to build good habits. And we want to start winning right away. I thought we had to play low possession games, like no matter who we were playing against. And I think we were one of the slowest tempo teams in the country that year. And we defended you really well, you know, man to man. We were very good defensively. And we were good enough offensively.

We had a couple really good guards, a first team all Ivy guard, and then a second team all Ivy two guard. And, you know, we just ran a lot of sets that flowed into like a four-out one-in motion. And guys shared it. You know, we played through the low post quite a bit. And, you know, but we played slow. It was like the opposite of what every new coach says. And I probably said it. My press conference were going to play fast.

I'm sure. I'm sure when you're recruiting. Like, we want to play fast. I don't forget. So Kevin O'Neill was at Tennessee, right? And Lawrence Frank was his assistant. And I don't know if you ever got recruited by those guys. but they used to just carpet bombings with with and so i'm sitting out after playing at notre dame

and one of my frustrations in playing for coach mcclough was we didn't have an organized secondary break he just didn't once which most people don't have now they just run you know transition drag screens whatever but even that we didn't really do and you know like i was much better in the open court than i was in the half court imagine an olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged it's the enhanced games some call it grotesque others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

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advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrat as part of the Mike Coutura Podcast Network available on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And so I was committed to whoever I go, like, we got to be able to play faster because I just, I'm not that good in half court. I never forget there, they were sending me like every day, like, we want you and we're going to do this. And we got Vincent, you know, we got Yarborough, we got these guys. And I turned, and it was like his first year maybe at Tennessee. And I turn on the TV and they're playing Kentucky. And they had like 11 points at the half.

Right. And they're just holding the ball and playing slow. Now, all you had to say in reality was like, hey, these guys aren't very good. I need good players to play fast. You know, we got to shorten this thing. But it was, it was in the sale that was, I was just, I was blown away. Like, it was one of the, it's like in football you have this as a broad care. Every defensive coordinator that's ever been higher at the press conference says,

we're going to be aggressive. We're going to, we're going to blitz more, right? If that was the case, by 2021, he will be blitzing every down, right? There was just 11 guys in line of scriments. It's not the reality of it. That's what people want to hear. What did you learn? What did you learn?

Like, really smart coaches, learn from things, learn from personal experience. Well, remember learning from your first year? Well, so I probably learned it more so the last, you know, over the next, of course, the next few years. It's just how fortunate I was, like, to inherit the group that I had. And I made so many mistakes, you know, as a young coach. You know, I think I learned, you know, I've, definitely learned over the last eight years who's right for us and the right type of kids that

are going to thrive under the way we want to play. OKGs, right. Our kind of guys. Exactly right. Say it again. OK, geez. I like that. I'm going to use that.

Our kind of guys. But yeah, you know, I think we, you know, we've definitely involved and we figured out, you know, how we want to, you know, how we want to, you know, what our values are, you know, what we want to, you know, you can't stand for everything. Like early on, I thought we were going to do, you know, all these different things offensively defensively, Doug, and you know, you get to maybe one third of it. You know what I mean? Like you have a great plan going in and you probably can only put in one third of the things you expect to put in. So, uh, learn that I want to be really good at a few things that really

matter. And, you know, the other thing. Yeah, we're going to play, play hard. Like, like, we're going to compete. And we want guys who are willing to battle through some adversity. Uh, we want to, uh, you know, be very good defensively. Our last couple years, we've been either one or two in the Ivy League in defensive efficiency. And, you know, that's kind of been through experience. Like, we've learned through having some bad defensive teams here at Brown. We've learned through having some guys that maybe as hard as they worked weren't ever going to be the best defenders for us. So we're going to play hard.

We're going to share the ball. We're going to defend. And, you know, I want to coach guys who are willing to battle through, you know, it's not, you know, you know, in our league or the Big 12 or the Pac-12, whatever league you play in. and you're going to face some tough moments, and you've got to have a certain type of values and standards that if you're going to pull through. You spend a third of your life in bed. That's why we make the most comfortable sheets in the very best way.

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Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to now. Navigating Adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. I want to ask you more off-off recording, but I do think, like, the Desmond Cambridge story is the perfect embodiment of the battle at your level of basketball. You found a kid, super talented, good grades, you play them right away. He averages, what, 18 a game for you as a sophomore, is an all Ivy League kid. and then he leaves and transfers, I guess, up a level, if you will. What's that like to experience?

Like, it's the, like, I found you, fostered your growth, built the thing around you. Things were going good, and now you're gone. Like, everybody has, you have the ability, and he's, you know, you have the ability to do so, but what is that like from your perspective? Yeah, so we, how about this? So we found out about this. He was from Nashville, Tennessee, and there's a guy who played not, for my father, but against my father from Springfield Mass, who called my father and said,

are you in relation to the coach at Brown, Mike Martin at Brown? And so anyways, long story short, they send the video. You know, my father says, I'm sure the kid's not any good, but, you know, the guy wants me to send a video. I said, send it. We looked at it and we're like, yeah, he's really good. And so we recruited him. We're so fortunate that we got him. And, you know, I'm grateful. Like Desmond was a very good player's rookie year in our league. He was an all-Ivy player. He helped us win 20 games. That was the first time in 2018, 19, that Brown had ever won 20 games in the season, Doug. I think we were the last Division I program to ever win 20 games. So he helped us, you know, create some of the momentum we still feel really good

about. He made a decision that he felt was best for him and we support him. And, you know, I've been watching him and following him and he's playing great for Nevada right now. But he, he was part of the, you know, like the last two years, we've won more games that has ever been won in school history, 35 games, Des was a huge part of that. And you know what? He also helped with us getting other recruits because they saw him and how good he was. And I was like, I want to go play at Brown too because if that guy thinks Brown's the right place, then I can do that. So, you know, like I thought this year if we played would have been the best team I've ever coached.

And Desmond was a huge part of building that. Okay, last thing. So you didn't have, you finally have an Ivy League tournament, only that got canceled last year. Right. and now you haven't had a season. And at the time of this recording, you just got your first chance to work guys out. First chance all year since last March. I know you got to go.

You got other things. I respect that. It's great to be back to the gym. First question, what have you been doing? Man, I've spent a ton of time with my family. My wife, Kristen, I have three daughters, Kira's nine, Avery's eight, Tegan, six. You know, I've been coaching them in the street. you know, when the weather's good, I've been doing drop off and pick up every day at school.

It's just trying to stay connected to our players. You know, I think that's your biggest role as a coach, you know, and the hardest thing is when you're not in the gym with them every day, you can't take them to lunch. You can't, you know, just go, you know, hang out with them in the locker room. That's the hardest thing. So try to stay connected with them however we can with the technology we have now. I've been watching more basketball than ever before, you know, NBA, college, some European things.

And, you know, like I joked with some donors on a call the other night. I was like, we're going to be the most overcoached team in the history of basketball next year because I have all these great ideas. Obviously, we've got to figure out what's good for us and what fits our personnel. But that's some of it. But today, like you said, February 4th, it's the best. I mean, just to be able to drive in this morning, we had an 8 a.m. workout. We were in there all morning.

We're getting ready to go back out there. It was just such a great feeling. And, you know, I'll never take for granted again, you know, just being in the gym, hearing the sneaker squeak, hearing the ball bounce, because like you said, we weren't in there since March 7. That's amazing. Okay, I know you got to go, but I got one more for you. Give me something you've learned.

You're watching a ton of ball, something that, like, because so much, Tom Brennan's a dear friend of mine, right? And TB was, of course, 18 years of head coach Vermont. And I'll never forget when he was working with us at ESPN, you know, he would pull your side, go, my boy. When you're coaching the team, you don't fucking worry about any of these other teams. you're worried about your team and maybe even your lead. I don't know, I don't know shit about it. Like, you got to help me out. Like, you want to talk about ball about what it's like?

Like, I can, but I, you know, I'm solely focused on my guys. So now you're focused on your guys, but also these other things. And it's just kind of an eye-opening experience, right? What's one thing that you learn that you really want to try and implement that you like? It can be style of play. It can be anything. Like, I, I, I'm, that's one of the things. that we do is we process things and try and implement them

and things we do, like me even talking to you, I know what I want to do with my kids when I got to practice tonight. One thing that you're gonna try and implement that you've learned. So as in a quick aside, you know who our associate head coach is, right? At Brown? Yes, of course.

TJ Sorennan and T.J., I mean, so Coach Brennan is a dear friend of mine as well. T.J. and I actually played on the same AAU team. In Vermont was a school that recruited me. I took a visit there, but I chose Brown. Anyways, you know what? The biggest thing I've learned is... By the way, by the way, in best human beings on the planet?

They don't come better than... No. No. I know you've got to go. And I want this answer, but this is my first TV story. So I hadn't covered him before. And they had the year before, they lost a BU in the conference tournament championship at BU. So Dave Bredison and I are covering like the first college basketball televised game, whatever.

Cop and Wrath is coming off like a broken wrist or something. We know if he was going to play. And we roll into Burlington and like the day before their biggest game ever on ESPN, he canceled practice. Cancel practice. No practice. We get there. We're like, where's practice? Like CB canceled it.

So the next day we show up at the game. And he's like, where were you? And I go, what do you mean? It's like, I was down. I don't know what the restaurant is in town that he always. Yeah. We were like, well, you didn't invite us. Who invite you?

Everybody knows I'm down there. Like, just ask anybody. That's where I am. There wasn't a bill that he didn't pick up. There wasn't a time in which he had a bad day. Like, of the top 10 human beings I've come into contact with in my life, Tom Brennan is absolutely, We could talk about him forever.

He used to have his radio show every morning, and it was like the highest rated radio show in Vermont, and he would call, TJ would tell stories, he'd call the guys at like six in the morning in their dorm rooms and wake them up and, you know, get them on the show. But yeah,

awesome, awesome guy. But anyways, I would tell you this. I already hinted at it. The biggest thing I've learned is like, we're not going to, I'm never going to,

like, I'm never going to take for granted the opportunity to be with my guys, like, and be in the gym and, you know, support them however I can. obviously we've seen so many awful things happen in the last 11 months since we were on the court, right? And how can we support these guys as their coaches?

Technically, I would tell you, I've watched a lot of the spacing around European, you know, especially in Spain. Some of the spacing they use in ball screens. And there's a guy Mancho Fernandez who coaches Oberdoio and he runs like a four-corner pick and roll offense. And, you know, we're trying to look at that a little bit, maybe add, you know, some type of dribble drive aspect. aspects while still being able to get to some of the good off ball cutting and screening actions that we've always tried to do. Like coach Miller was a motion offense, you know, type of guy. And we've tried to do that play through the guy big at the low post, play through our big at the high close, play through our big at the top of the key in a five out situation. Can we kind of fuse all that? That's my, that's kind of been my biggest project. And I think with our personnel, what we'll have next year, if we can we can fuse like a dribble drive with some spread, pick, and roll. And, playing through our bigs at different areas of the floor, maybe we'll have a chance because our offense needs to get a lot better. Well, listen, I'll let's get back in the gym. I know how happy you are. I do want at some point, if you have a moment, to do a pod on some of those European coaches and on some of the different aspects that it might be a little technical to do an audio conversation, but I don't know.

I dig it and I think if I dig it and you do, then there'll be enough. This pot is designed for people who give a shit about hoop, right? And that's the whole idea about it. It's all ball, right? It's all ball. I could talk ball any time of day. So you just let me know. I'm going to say this before you go.

I got a, so my son's 11. He plays 11, U12, you occasionally plays 13 years. I got a 13-U team. And I sent out a text to the parents. And I said, I got, I finally have a good team. I said, look, I don't think we'll win. One of those elite level. We're playing a big tournament this weekend, a big one next weekend, like the gold level stuff.

I might not win a tournament. I was like, but what I want your kids to experience on the micro is what in the macro you'll experience in college ball, which is being a part of the team, being better as one than you are individually, right? Sharing the ball, sharing the success, even sharing the losses together. Like those kind of things are what this deal is about, you know, and we make it about, I think, so many times the wrong things. To me, that's the right things.

And I love how I have senior teams play, and I like how your teams play. And I agree, like evolving offensively. We expect players to evolve. Coaches got to evolve, too. You can't just keep doing the same shit over and over again and expecting a different result. No doubt. No doubt. Doug, thanks so much.

Great to be with you. Get back in the gym. Thanks, ma'am. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. That was awesome. really interesting stuff. We'll have to have Coach Martin back on.

We'll talk some X&Os and some coachings, a little more detailed things, but I thought that was just a fascinating talk. Hope you enjoyed it. Remember, my show, the Doug Gottlieb Show, 3 to 6 Eastern, 123 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, Foxporttrade.com. You can also download the pod if you want.

In the meantime, if you have college basketball NBA questions, feel free, tweet at me, at Gottlieb Show. There's a guest you want on. Same thing. Same thing. We got, we're backed up on people. You're going to love some of our upcoming episodes.

Remember to subscribe, download, and review, and write one of those comments. Hopefully a good one. There's a chance I get a little bit more money if it's a good comment. Hope you enjoyed it. Thanks to Coach Martin. I'm Doug Gottlie. This is all along. Did you know Amazon provides ways of working that fit your lifestyle?

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