The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Michigan/Juwan Howard Love; Former UNLV Star and Int'l Pro Mark Dickel Talks Point Play, Transition to Coaching

Episode Date: February 20, 2021

In this episode, Doug lays out why Juwan Howard and Michigan deserve the love they're receiving and why a tough upcoming stretch will be the biggest test of their season to date. This week's guest is Mark Dickel discusses his path from New Zealand to leading the nation in assists at UNLV, his long international pro career, and his transition to becoming the coach of the Albanian and Philippines National teams. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes,

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Hey, welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is the all-new, all-ball. Man, do we have a great, great podcast for you. I'm super, super excited. you know, there are times in your life when you reconnect with somebody and it's a different stage in your life and you view them very differently. When I played at Oklahoma State, I had these imaginary rivals, you know, I became a guy who, you know, my worth, my value was based upon if we won and how many assists I had. And so there were a couple of guys who were competitors in time, one of which is our guest today.

His name is Mark Dickel. He's originally from New Zealand. He's got a fabulous personal story. He's been a prodigy, a player, and a coach. Wait a year I get the head coaching job of the Albanian Nationals. Let me start, though, with a couple of different things here, basketball-wise, before we get to my talk of Mark Dickel. First thing is, the love for Michigan.

I love Michigan. I think what Joanne Howard's done is amazing. As I pointed out on Twitter, it's not just Juan Howard. It's the people he hired, especially a guy like a Phil Martelli or Sadie Washington. Phil Martelia had been a Division I head coach for a long time. Of course, most notably, I mean, he was the legend of St. Joseph's. And Sadie Washington, who turned down Western Michigan, his alma mater, to remain as Michigan's assistant coach.

you get guys who know what you don't know. That doesn't mean you don't know basketball, but college basketball is very different. And what Joanne has done is hire people who know what he doesn't know and empowered them. And they're beautifully coached basketballs. He's also not like shoving his son down our throats

and playing him all the time. He's letting him burn his minutes and everybody gets his year back anyway. We'll see how they do against Ohio State this week is look at their schedule and who are they playing. You know, Even the Penn State game, which was escape at home, they didn't play at Penn State. I had played Illinois.

I had played in Vienna. I'd play Ohio State here this upcoming weekend. I've played Iowa. So the best team is the Big Ten, they haven't played. So it inflates their record some. Does it mean that they stink? No. Does it mean they're one of the three elite teams in the country?

Not yet. Not yet. I think that has to be pretty. I think it's really funny to me. Some of the NBA conversations over all stuff. star snubs. And look, fans pick Luca instead of picking Damian Lillard or Donovan Mitchell.

I think Damien Lillow's had a better year. I think Luca had a much better year last year in the second half of the year. And doesn't that deserve any sort of recognition? I don't know. It's a fantastic question. But I think it's interesting on how guys get really bent out of shape over all-star selections in an all-star game

that none of them want to play it. Also, they don't want to play in a game that they approved. Like, players association approved the All-Star game. There is no discussion about having. I don't think they should have it. I think it's a waste of time. Can't hang out, can't go out.

Only no fans there. It's going to be super weird. But if you agreed to doing it, and it was an effort to keep all your money, and guess what you have to do? You have to do it. All right, I thought you'd like this. Mark Dickel just got back from me

and the head coach, the Philippine national team. Just had back surgery, so he's been on the shelf a little bit. We had a great talk. Take a listen. So there's a bunch of things to get into. Let's just start with your current state. You had just had back surgery? Yeah.

Yeah. So three weeks ago, just got sick and tired of hurting all the time, you know? So just went back in. And I had a surgery 15 years ago. Actually had it done in Athens when I was playing over there. And the surgeries are so much different now. So they kind of went back in and cleaned that one up. and L4 dysectomy.

So wait, so you had a, you were brave enough to have a surgery in a foreign country. I was told, don't ever do that. Don't ever let them cut you there. Go home and let them catch you at home. Yeah, it sounded right. But at the time, man, I like the idea of getting that money too, right? So that kind of played into that. But no, the surgery over there was good.

It was just, you know, like so different now. Like nowadays, the surgery is like half an inch. Back then it was like three, four inches. They catch you open, right? So definitely back in there cleaned it up. I mean, it already feels much better. It's just, you know, getting older, man. You have a slow rehab now.

It's going to take forever to come right. So was it like a herniated disc or what's the actual diagnosis? Yeah, yeah. So I had a protruding disc just sitting on the nerve on my right side and L4, right? So they kind of go in there, shave it down and all that nerve pain going down my right leg stop straight away. So that was really my, the major uncomfortable part of it, you know. So once that nerve plane went away, I started feeling like I could walk around and do stuff again. It's one of the first things you learn when you're doing this side of it is a protruding disc.

Pratruiting disc. You have to make sure you're protruding disc. If you don't say, if you say disc quickly, what's protruding is not what you want to have protruding. Yeah, right. I hear you, man. Okay. So like, look, you know, obviously our paths crossed. We played against each other twice.

And you love the country one year and I love the country another year. assist. You've gone on to playing and coaching. I've gone on to my thing. But we grew growing up, like what was your first memories of basketball? Well, my first memories of basketball were kind of like the NCAA tournament, like one shining moment, right? Like, we didn't get a whole lot of basketball in New Zealand growing up. You know, it's such a rugby dominated country that, you know, my dad was a coach and he wrote to a lot of coaches in the States to get like books, you know, the VCRs, you know, beta, whatever the tape was back. then. Yeah, Beta Max. So that, yeah, Beta Max. So really, man, that that was kind of my initiation. So

all the schools that were good back then, you know, in the 80s and 90s, they're kind of the same dominating kind of now. So like back in the day, it was, you know, North Carolina, Georgetown, kind of grew up like with that as the focal point, like what my dream was to try and make college, right? Because, but what was, what was like your hometown, New Zealand is where? Daneda, New Zealand, right at the bottom of the South Island. Go any further, you're at the Antarctic. Okay, so I'm guessing, like, got to be cold in the winter, right?

Cold in the winter? Yeah, really, really cold in the winter and not that warm in the summer. Kind of temperate climate, like we might get snow down to sea level every now and then, but we get that southerly coming from the Antarctic, man, and that's not too warm, right? So anytime the winter or the wind comes from the North Island is warm, anytime it comes from the south it's cold. So growing up over being in a different place. Okay, so again, like give me the like, do you live in a house, an apartment growing up?

Again, like you're talking about my only knowledge of New Zealand is that the Lord of the Rings was filmed somewhere around New Zealand, which looks beautiful. But that's not all of New Zealand. Okay, so give me the, I grew up in Orange County, man. It's a, it looks like everything out of the 80s. you would think of. Most of the houses look the same. They're all small, small lots or whatever, and you had to go to a park to shoot hoops. What was your, you growing up, it was life? I had, you know, had a house lived really close to the ocean, you know, everywhere in New Zealand,

you know, around the coastline. So, you know, I'd walk down my driveway. We're kind of in the ocean. We had a hope in my house, which was kind of rare for New Zealand, then, you know, not that many people back there played, as opposed to now where it's actually challenging rugby is the most played sport. you know, thanks to Steve Adams and the influence of really NBA 2K. But really growing up over there, man, it was just different, you know, just different. Just, you know, sport was everything, but the sport that I love basketball, really no one played. So I kind of leaned on my father a lot. Where did you do you passion for basketball come from?

Well, you know, initially he was, you know, like everyone else, rugby cricket and New Zealand. You know, they're the two sports. But in the 60s, the Boston Celtics actually. traveled to New Zealand and barnstormed and played. And he played basketball in our area and he actually played against the Celtics. So that was kind of when he kind of fell in love with basketball. Red Alabakh took teams over there and I think two years in a row they went there. So so he kind of got the bug from that.

Because prior to that man, you know, like it's just very, very difficult to get the information to play a sport like that. It wasn't really, you know, I think in New Zealand, you know, the Mormon missionaries had a huge part. to passing that game on, just going around the road and teaching everybody the game. So my dad kind of fell in love with it like that. And then just really wanted to be a good coach at it. And there was really no coaches in our area. So he kind of just asked everybody he knew and read as much as he could. And that was kind of it.

So kind of when I came along and my brother came along, he kind of used us as guinea pigs a little bit and tried to show us stuff and try and help us and see which one of us really wanted to go on. Older or younger brother? Two years older. Right, little brother. So you get the benefit of having somebody to kind of beat up on you and push you, right?

And I'm a younger brother as well. So I remember completely what that was like, like trying to earn the respect. So your first chance to really see how good you were as a kid was how old. Probably 13 or 14. We didn't really have, you know, nowadays in New Zealand, it's kind of like AAU now a little bit. You know, they're playing so young.

But, you know, the first tournament I played, and I think was under 15s, right? So right up until then, you kind of just play around outside. At under 15s, that was kind of when I was like, oh, okay, in my area, you know, I'm a better player than most of the other kids. And then when you go away to national tournaments, you start working out, man, there's not really that many other players better than you at that age either. So that was kind of the first time I realized, man, I might be able to go on and do something here. And I was little, Doug, when I was growing up.

You know what I mean? I didn't really grow. I didn't really grow until I was 16. So from that perspective, you know, you're kind of fighting for respect. You're kind of fighting for possession. You're kind of fighting for everything, right? So when you're little, when you're young, I think it kind of helps. Yeah, my son's actually going through that now.

I stayed back in eighth grade because I was so little. And it really helped me. I grew like, I was like five feet tall when I was 14 years old. And then by the time I was 15, I went to high school. I was like 5-9, 5-10, right? I mean, just kind of sprouted. And then when I got to college, then that kind of that second way, like your man muscles come in, you know, like all those things

that had not stayed back would have been, it would have been harder to compete at the higher level. Okay, so you grew late. You're like 16. When did it become possible that you could play in college? Well, kind of then. It kind of all happened at once. You know, the pro team in my area,

they'd been very, very good for 10 or 15 years. and they just had a whole lot of older players retire at the same time. So that kind of coincided with me growing a whole lot. And it was over a summer period of three months that I grew. So I just went to the trial. I was there, made the team when I was still, I think I was a sophomore or junior in high school. So I started playing with the pro team. So from that perspective, you know, I'm playing minutes on the pro team.

I kind of started dreaming bigger a little bit. Like, man, maybe I could go on. But we'd only had one player from New Zealand before me go to college and do. well and plays all. Stan Hill. He went to San Jose State. Six 11 really good. Averaged about 18th sophomore year, I believe, and then left school, went to Europe and started playing. So he was kind of New Zealand's best ever player. And he was big. So that kind of set the bar like that. You know, all the imports that came out to our country, the guards, they were so good that, you know, you realize if they were just good enough to play at a Division I school, how good do you have to be,

right. So who was the imports playing on your pro team when you were playing? A guy named Leonard King. He played at Florida Atlantic. Man, there was a lot going back. And every year we seem to change. But he was the main one for seven or eight years on my, on our pro team. So from the time I was like 11 or 12 and he played with me three years before I went to school. So he was kind of the one that pushed me and encourage me to, Man, maybe I could go ahead to do that. Okay, so how did you get to UNLB? Well, when I was 18, I made the national team in New Zealand, and we play Australia. So those games are on TV in Australia and New Zealand.

And there was a coach in Australian named Brian Gorson, right, who's now the Australian national team coach. He's been the Chinese national team coach seven and eight years previously. But his father was Ed Gorgian, right? Brian's the brother of Greg Gorgian, who you also might know from L.A scored a million points there in high school. Yes, of course. Ed Gorson was assistant coach at YonLB for a long, long time when Tark was there and they were winning. So Brian called my father just randomly and said, hey, look, I still have a connection at cert schools. Is your son interested in going?

Up until then, you know, it's very, very hard to get recruited from a place when no one's recruiting you, right? So it was really him. He kind of opened a few doors. And then I went to Australia for three or four months to live with him and to train and get ready. And then we settled it. We kind of narrowed it down to a couple of schools. And that's when Bill Beano came to play. And once Bill Beano gets his hands on you, it's very, very difficult to go anywhere else.

Okay. So Billy back then was young. I mean, he had a good looking, like good dressery, wore loafers at games. So what do you remember about your first time you met Bill? I just thought he was cool, right? Like that was the first thing, you know, he was cool. And like he treated, you know, he was one of the real ones that treated you like an ad of already. Right.

So, you know, and he was honest with me. He said, man, you're going to have to really work if you want to play. He didn't guarantee me anything. But he was the first coach that I kind of connected with. Right. So, so it was easy, man. He came to Australia twice. We hung out.

Yeah. And just him working out with you. And that's. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind, the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

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You know, he's just so good at helping you get better and see what you need to work on and relating with you like that. That's where we always connected was on the court. So it was easy, man. You know, I just believed in him. You know, at that point, I didn't know who else he had on the team.

I'd never visited Vegas. You know, I was just really going off him. And you'd been to America before? I had been a couple of times because back in the day with New Zealand national team, we'd come and play like everybody's exhibition games. So we'd just take hiding from everybody, right? So we played TCU one night and then we'd play UCLA the next night and we'll play USC the next night. So you're kind of on a hiding for nothing, but it was great because you got to see, you know,

A, the schools and up close what they're doing, but just how good the players were and how much you'd have to improve. Had you been to Vegas before? I had. We'd kind of gone through Vegas. I'd been there for a day and a half, but man, I was so young and naive at that particular junction, I had no idea what Vegas was, right?

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Brought to you by the ad council. Walk a mile in my shoes. Okay, so you commit to going to UNLV and you leave home and you've been training in Australia. So it's not like you had been away from home. You show what's it like to arrive in, Vegas, 96. 1996. And you get off the plane.

Do you remember who? What's the first memories of showing up on? Well, yeah, the first memories I have is that, you know, the airport so close to the Thomas and Matt, you know, so close. So we went right there and Vayner was there, right? So kind of, you know, the first hour or so, he's just talking, you know, then he's like, okay, you know, we've got to get you situated in your apartment, you know. So all that kind of thing goes on for a couple of days.

And then really, my first real, okay, I'm now in Vegas is we went to play open gym, and that's when I saw some of the other players that were on the team, you know, Keon Clark, Tyrone, Nisbee, guys like that. That's when I was like, oh. Oh. Yeah. I didn't realize it was going to be like that, right? So that was really it, you know, a couple of days in and starting to play with them and

realizing, man, I got a long way to go if I want to play here. Yeah. Well, Keon Clark, so he used to, with. What's interesting about that group was Keon was at Irvine Valley for a year. So he used to train at UC Irvine. There's a great pickup games at UC Irvine. And there was a point guard named Raymond Mangaleks. Yeah.

Kevin Simmons. Yeah. And then Kevin Simmons, of course, you transfer from UCI. So UCI was stacked. And then I don't remember they got an NCAA trouble, whether there's a coaching change or what. But then they all left. And my boy Clay McKnight, he went to Pacific,

like Kevin Simmons went to UNLV. So did, what's his name, your shooting guard? Who's NBA system? Why am I forgetting right now? Brian Keith. Brian Keith, right? So all of, so all, you don't know this, but like all of our, I know all those dudes that you're playing with and working out with.

Tyronezby was a freak. So you show up and you're like, you know, let's see what this is like. And you see these dudes run up and down. What's going on in your mind? Well, I just, I just never been exposed to it. you know, like the demand for the ball. You know, like, like, going to get to shoot ever here.

This is the first thing I was aware of. And rightfully, in that case, man, they do good things with it, right? So, so, you know, that was the first thing. And then just the athleticism, the speed of the game, like how they move, how quick everything happens, you know, it was just all an adjustment, you know. But you had, you had great speed. Your end-to-end speed was outstanding. Did you train for it?

I mean, you know your dad played, but where did your end-to-end speed come from? I just ran track, like in high school, right? You know, and then just just taking advantage of kind of what you've been given, right? So I never really thought about it too much. I just, you know, maybe out of necessity, maybe out of just like, man, they can't pressure you if you go right by them, right? Maybe that's the philosophy. but but then didn't really think about it until you know you start coaching and you start trying to try to encourage people to play faster and trying to do stuff like that that really

started me on the process of like shit how can I make not make how can I help people play like that right just a how do you how do you it's a great how do you get got to find basketball well you've got to find people that are just as fast with the ball as without it and that's a really hard thing right because most people are too scared to make mistakes because you're going to make mistakes, right? And especially playing our position, mistakes are scoffed at, right? Like you don't want people to make mistakes, right?

So I think that's what scares a lot of players who have that ability to not play like that. Right. So with me, it's just trying to reassure the players, hey, look, if you play at that tempo and that rhythm, you're going to make mistakes until you get used to it. And then, you know, it's going to be a real asset and strength to yours. You know, you can't expect players to play like that if they're not going to feel free to make the mistakes that they're going to make. So, you know, for me, a player for my father growing up, I think that's what helped me. He just didn't, you know, he didn't hold me back. He encouraged me,

and so did all the other coaches that coached me when I was young, because that would have been an easy thing to knock out of somebody just by telling him to not do it, right? So. Play slower. Yeah. I mean, I just to play slow. With me, one of the things you try and do and do is to try and, I've tried this with little kids, is you have them run up and down the court as fast as they can in time of. Okay, now do it with a basketball. There's no reason you can't do it at about the same speed, right? If you're pushing the ball in front of you, and like that's the optimal speed. But it's, it's really hard to teach guys to play at a, and that's, that's honestly like I think the hardest adjustment for when you go to college

is the speed is, you know, is just different. Like when you get to the professional game, and I don't know what you thought, but I thought always thought when you step up, especially in American professional basketball, it's the length more than the speed, you know, because the holes, everything closes up so much quicker because they're length. But, The difference in high school to college is guys play harder and guys are way faster. Yeah, right. Right. And it's really, and it's hard to replicate.

And you have that youth basketball where you play, you know, you play a team from the city and they're going to get after you and they just have speeded it. There's no mismatch. They have speed at every position. And you have to learn to, you have to learn to play at your own pace within their pace. That's a really hard thing to do. Mm-hmm. Okay. So you got you and LV.

I'll give you my first memory of when we came to play you guys. Okay, so the year before I got there, so you're 96, 97, you guys went to Stillwater and Tyronezby dunked on Alex Weber and like for the life for our entire, my entire three years in Stillwater, we'd always pull up that tape and Alex, Big Alex would almost want to cry because it was one of the nastiest dunks you ever seen. Right. But by the time we got around to playing you guys, it was your junior year, both of our junior year. And I was in a shitty place with coach.

And I remember you guys had Sean Marion. You had you. You had Brian Keith. You have Kevin Simmons. You got Casper's Campbell. Like, you got a squad. What was it actually like to play them? Be honest.

Look, look, man, it's not letting the cat out of bag. We were just too loose. You know, everything was too loose. you know like we just had too much talent if there's such a thing and and and and and just too loose you know like if billy had that job now to be a different world right a different world but at that time hey man we're all around the same age as he was he's 29 years old when i came here right he was 29 i didn't realize he was so young man so we're playing you guys right and clay mcnight who was on that ucii team he flew in he played early in that day for

pacific and i would never forget game was kind of a wrap with like four or five minutes left to go and casper's comes up at the feet they're like oh yo what should you guys get into tonight we're like what did you got we're like we're like we're going to the hard rock the circle bar at the hard rock see you there we had never like that shit just doesn't like look we we play in holly we live in a small college town nobody stays the night afterwards definitely nobody hangs out with the team like played against but he was he was cool like he was the scariest dude i had ever looked at that competing against. And he was, he was cool. Again, probably a little too cool. I don't want to

hang out too much. But it was definitely, it was a, that was a different team where you guys were so talented. And yet, uh, it was just a game. And he didn't win. It was okay. We'll go and hang out. We'll go try again tomorrow. Yeah, it was a look, man, it was a, it was a different thing. I think because the expectations in Vegas had been so high four or five years earlier. and then before we all came they were so low when Billy got the job right like we kind of had a little bit of a grace period there that maybe we shouldn't have had you know like I thought we were talented enough to get with anybody but it's very very different when you when the roster kept changing like you know we got backups that deserve to play so if somebody has a couple of bad games they're out that guy's in now so I think that was a big part of it guys just never got comfortable in their role and the other teams you're playing a hell again good, man. Like, you guys were good. Like, we could lose to you guys straight up, right? So,

so, like, I think, you know, like we had a couple of tough losses and then things would change again, and then it would be conference, right? So we kind of always got in that, in that mode that it wasn't really till conference that we started coming together and working out exactly who's going to play and how much we're going to play and what's going on. What about for you? Like, what's it like to be the point guard of UNLV in Vegas? Look, look, it was great, man. It was everything I would have wanted it. to be, right? Like, you know, like the hardest thing was, A, the expectations, right, really difficult. You know, I desperately wanted to play. I didn't want to sit on the bench, right? Bainer would kind of

been very, very explicit and like, look, if you shoot, there's a good chance I'm going to put somebody else in. I want someone to run the team and get the, but it becomes very difficult, as you know, if the other team knows you're not going to shoot. You know, they tend to fricking make it very, very difficult for you to play. And what happens, here's what's interesting about it is like you get to this place where you're like look I can make shots but in the well you don't have any confidence like well your coach has no confidence in you how are you supposed to have any you have to have such supreme self-confidence and I'm just not built that way right I'm a pleaser you know and my I just and I'm just assume you're that way where it was just like hey why don't

you shoot like well because if I missed it would take me out so I don't want to sit out so don't shoot and then guys start playing off you and you're like it's hard to watch college film sometimes yeah yeah i was you know i kind of i kind of went through it like it like the sophomore year uh we had a couple of guys at my spot get hurt so for the last 15 games he kind of let me play let me you know and we won our conference went to the tournament my junior year first half the year i hurt my ankle so i wasn't really a hundred percent that kind of junior year was a wash even though we had a really talented team. And in my senior year, everyone left. So he kind of let me do whatever I could shoot, I could play. And there was no one else he could take me out. And that's kind of how my career

felt, right? Like if I would break it down, it was like, all right, my senior year, yeah, like I understand why he did it because we didn't have the super talent that we had previously. So you get done playing at UNLB. What happens? I get done playing at UNLV. I'm trying to get ready for pre-draft camp. So I get hurt, right? Have a bad injury. go back to New Zealand. Four or five months, I do nothing. I go to the Olympics for New Zealand. We automatically qualify because the Olympics is in Australia in Sydney.

So we go there with New Zealand. We get beat badly by everybody. Wasn't a great playing experience. Who did you play? We played everyone, man. You know, we were in a group with USA, Serbia. Well, they were Yugoslavia then. I believe Croatia, Lithuania,

China and Angola. We bet Angola. You got Angola. I was like, at least give him Angola. Give him Angola. Right. Right.

But so after that, I actually signed it in Australia for my first two years. I played for Brian Gorson over there again, which was really good. You know, he kind of taught me a little bit more about the pro game. So you kind of rediscover your game too, right?

You're like, oh, yeah, man. Like, like definitely, it's, it's different, you know, like, like the college thing, you know, you don't realize that you're in your own little world, right?

The moment you're out of it, you're like, do, all right, well, that was like it never happened. And then you're right on to being an adult, right? So my first couple of years, it was like, okay, you know, this is a totally different game. You just can't play like that anymore. You've got to give these other guys a chance. You're playing with some 35, 36-year-old guys that are trying to run up and down like that, right? So it was just trying to figure that stuff out, work it out. He was great, really patient, you know, a great teacher. So work with him a lot. At the end of my second year there, he came to me. He was like, man, you should go to Europe and try and make as much as you can. That was kind of the word. He kind of pushed me out the

door, so to speak. Who are the Americans you played with with Gorson? I had a guy named Darrell McDonald. He's very, very famous over there. He's played there for about 15 years. And Jamal Mosley. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotes. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the best.

the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that

don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, actress, mother, lover, and a Gen X woman walking through life one hot flash and hormonal crying jag at a time. You ladies know what I mean. I'll bet you a parameda apostle chin here you do. So let's talk about it.

Join me on my new podcast. How hard can it be with Deanna Maria Riva, where I call on my Gen X squads from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate midlife's most fantastic BS. All of a sudden, I'd had hanginess happening on my own. I was like, what the hell is that? I was married when I had her, so I didn't even consider how empty that Ness was going to be. Mood swings, night sweats, fupas, sex drive. Wait, what sex? Dating at 45.

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And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate. the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup,

he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the bar. Like, After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Who's now assistant coaching?

That's your guy. So, Jamal Mosley played for my dad from San Diego. Played for my dad in AAU. And then obviously went to Colorado. And now he's at some point destined to be a head coach. It's really crazy. like I was doing this thing with I have youth teams now and and I was trying to tell these parents like, look, Cameron Sufi is an assistant with the wizards.

Like he, he, we played together since like fourth grade. Miles Simons, since we're the Lakers. We played together starting in fifth grade. Like you start kind of going through like Adam Jacobson is Casey Jacobson's brother. Casey's now on TV. Like all of these guys, Adam Jacobson is an assistant in Calabaptist. Like so much of us, we started playing basketball. And you think, now granted, it's different now because everybody has an AAU team.

You think there was a lot of different teams. And almost all of the people that I play with are still involved in basketball. It's amazing, like how it becomes part of your life. And you end up making a career out of it if you really, really like it. Man, for sure, man. It's, and how many, like you say, come from one area. You know, it tends to be like that a lot. Like you see people that are connected, right?

from the time they're very young and then they're still doing it. Like Jamal was just an incredibly hard worker, role player guy. And you could tell like he was already thinking like a coach, right, like all the time. Right. Like he wasn't a, he wasn't a me guy at all,

right, which isn't great to play as an import overseas where you're not. It's really hard. Really hard. Like it's so interesting. And what's into, what I found interesting about it is, I feel like,

and I think Australians especially, but also other Europeans, like they don't like the American style of a little bit more me than we, right? Like, it's just not how they want to play. On the other hand, if you're coming in as American, you're expected to be able to get the ball and go get buckets when they need a bucket. So it's like, we don't really like the way you play, but we know we need it in certain instances. So you go be you and then you got to fit in with us the rest of the time. Man, 100%. Like, they want you to be like that on the court.

and they want you to be like them as much as you can off the court. And that's kind of, you know, that's kind of what they want. Because, you know, they're getting you in there to do some things that the guys on their team can't. That's why they're getting you there. So they're expecting you to be able to do that. So, you know, I kind of saw from Jamal that the enjoyment level for him wasn't the same as what it was in college. I could see that straight away. Just the expectations different.

Whereas in college he had such a good system, coach, all that. He really enjoyed it there at Colorado as opposed to. You know, it's just hard, man. You know what it's like you play overseas? It's not easy. A couple of bad games, man. They're looking at you sideways, right? So I can see him thinking coaching already.

Everything's a vacation. Oh, you go to Australia. It's awesome. It's like a vacation. Like, yeah, no, you have to do a job. And they can send you home if they don't like you. Very simple. Whenever you look for news, you may feel forced to choose

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disinformation and manipulation in alternative media. Instead of being at each other's throats, we focus on bringing new perspectives to the table and constructive debate that sounds less like crossfire and more like discussions between real people. Check out the Lost Debate on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky.

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and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. So you played in Greece. Biggest question, everybody asked somebody play in Greece. Did you get all your money?

Yeah, I did, man, because, you know, like... Wow. Yeah, like, I've always been lucky because I played on kind of big teams. We always played in Europe, right? So I kind of got lucky. My first two years I played at Fenabachia in Turkey.

So, you know, like, and we had good teams there, and I played well. So I kind of never had to sit in that tough spot until I got older. You know, I was kind of 33, 34 where the money started getting funny. But I had a good 10 years over there where it was pretty decent. Like I heard the stories, but I never related myself to that because I wasn't having to go through it. When I played in Russia, not only did I get every penny, but I actually left because I had to go to Lakers Summer League. I left and I had like, they owed me like $7,000, some for my like bonus from winning the Russian League championship. And I had every friend I knew ambassador was like, how could you leave without getting your money?

I was like, well, like the guy can only give me $9,900 to bring back in cash. And, you know, like my wife had $9,900. I had $9,000. I was like, whatever was left was somehow we had like $7,000. I was just like just wire it to me. I just want to get the hell out of there. I want to go home. And because it was like mid-June because.

everything is pushed back because of the Olympics I did. And sure enough, like a week later, like popped up my bank count. They're like, no way. It's like, yeah, I got every penny that I was open. But I heard the horror stories and I experienced a little bit of it in Israel. They just did stupid stuff in Israel with the money. Okay, the coolest country you played in was what? Turkey.

Yeah, I love the first person to say that. Why? Just, man, the people, man, they love bull. You know, the educated about basketball, the people over there are great. I just liked it. The food was awesome. And I was young still then too, Doug. You know, I was only 23 years old.

You're really young. You know, you don't have kids, what? All that year. You're just, you know, you're just trying to find your way. And I think I got lucky going to the clubs I went to, right? The clubs I went to were really good and well-run and kind of have me feeling like I'm not missing out anywhere else, you know. And we did well without ever winning. the championship or whatever. We did well. It was really enjoyable. And I felt like that's where I

played my best, right? Like I was healthy for the years that I was there, and that makes a huge difference. Who is your coach there? I had three or four different coaches. They tend to change, but the legend in that club was a guy named Iden Ers, right? He's a very, very famous coach. How do you say it? Iden Ors. I didn't horse? And did he coach in England? Do you speak in English? Like what was, what was?

He'd speak in English. He could speak great English. You know, when I, initially when I got there, I was the only foreigner there when I first went there. The other foreigner was Serbian. So, you know, they don't, serves and Turks, they didn't like him either. So they were kind of looking at me for a long time, like, what am I like, right? But after a while, no problem.

They speak English with you. Because, you know, I'd heard that no one over there speaks English. The man, they spoke English. Once they liked you, man, it was just like anything else. Coolest city in Turkey. Well, Istanbul. I mean, I like Ankara too, but Istanbul, man, is great. I live right in Finn about you, right?

Beautiful, beautiful place, man, right on the waterfront. What, favorite food? And I like all the different soup, man, over there. Like in the soup and bread. I remember the coffee in Turkey being unbelievable. Like, I'm a big coffee guy. I remember like Turkish coffee where they had that stuff. They like heated up on some like rocks or something.

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like people go crazy to the coffee there. But like like all this stuff, man, I ate all the street food there, which I never did anywhere else. You know, like, you know, obviously, you know, the chicken kebubbs, you know, just never see any pork over there, man. They'd been in a Muslim country.

But everything else, beef, chicken, lamb, all really good. Yeah. Oh, so you're in your mid-30s, right? Yep. Your body's breaking down. Where are you playing? I had my last year in Greece then in a city called Tricola, right, which is probably three hours drive from Athens,

from a coach that I played for five or six years earlier. And at that particular junction, man, I'm just hanging there for a paycheck, right? Like, I'm like, look, man, I can make more money doing this and anything else right now. I know I want to get into coaching. How do I do that? So I kind of had that transition year and was hurt the whole year.

you didn't play? So I did play, but I just played in the games. I didn't practice at all. So I'm hard, because we do get to an age where when you don't touch a ball for a long time, when you start to the first time you back, you make everything, right? And then it's the second day back.

So you probably had that without practicing, right? Like, I'm feeling good. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, like if you're not trying to do too much, you know, European basketball, especially as you get older, man, at that particular junction, they've gone from two imports each team

to now you can have four. That's kind of what happened. And my ankles was so bad that year. Look, I could probably take pills or injections before the game to get through the game, but there's no way I could practice day to day or do any of that. So I kind of just tried to get through the season as best I could and then plan what I do next. Were you networking in the time and talking to your coach, or was this just kind of a plan in your head?

Just a plan in my head. You know, it's really hard because I'd always wanted to coach and coach. college in America, you know, that was always my dream, right? But it's just so hard to know where to start. I mean, a whole lot of my friends were doing that already. A lot of the people that mentored me and that that was what they were already doing. You know, and at the same time, my kids are young now. You know, they're four, three and one, right? So I'm kind of in my mind, I'd like, man, I'd love for them to see New Zealand, you know, where I grew up. Because I knew if I came back here and got in the system straight away, that's all they would have ever known. You know, they're all born here.

here in Vegas, which is not a bad place to live at all, but I definitely wanted them to know where they're from or where I'm from at least, right? So, you know, I started looking at opportunities in New Zealand, which is, which was kind of different because there's not a whole lot of coaching opportunities over there. So what was your first coaching job? My first coaching job was in New Zealand. It was as a director of development. So what that is is for that area, you're kind of in charge of anything that's not the professional team, right? So So any of the age groups, so from under 10, under 11, under 12, under 13, you've got to try and find coaches and make sure that they're working on the stuff that you think they should be working on. And I coached every age group from under 8, under 10, under 14, under 18, under 20.

And I still played on our pro team and I was player coach of bat team, right? And I played pretty badly and coached relatively well when I was on the sideline. and vice versa when I was in the game. Very, very difficult to be a player coach. So your player head coach? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It sounded good, you know, like especially when you start, you know, like, ah, I combine two jobs. I make double money, right? No, it's not really that simple, right? So, so really, really, because the season in New Zealand is only for four months of the year. So the pro season. So we kind of play in between the Australian season. So, you know, that's only for a. short period of time. My real job was coaching director of development in the area that I grew up,

Duned. So, so like, do you, did you still have a passion, like to go to the gym and work with kids? Did you find yourself immediately passionate? Or you like, man, this is hard to get out of the game every day? Well, I guess I was lucky because I just got a group of kids where I was from that love basketball, so they gave you the energy to want to do it, you know, and they were all different ages. There's probably 40 or 50 of them or from like 11 through to 16 or 17 that really didn't have the aspirations but just love the game. So, you know, our school started at 9 o'clock over there. So in the morning. So I kind of got everyone in at 6.30 and we started training for a couple of hours. So that's kind of what gave me the impetus to really want to do it, right?

Okay, so 6.30 in the morning, how old were these kids? All different ages, boys and girls from say 12 to 16 or 17. Okay, so what's your, what's your philosophy with, say, you got an hour, you got an hour. My 11-year-old son's right here, Sigh, I need it. So you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, get an hour with 11s and 12-year-olds. What do you want to focus on? Uh, or skill development.

And then let them play for 10 minutes at the end. You don't play until, you know, you don't play until all the skill development is done. Uh, most important skills, you know, obviously, uh, shooting, passing, dribbling, you know, so you just work on the same generic fundamentals that you want everyone to work on. So you try and get that over with. If you have two hours or if you have an hour, you just break it down so that you don't ever let them play to the point whereby they feel like they're coming every day to play. That's for their own team or their own coach on their own time, right? They're coming there to work on their game and try and get better.

So, you know, that was really the change in what I wanted to stress because, you know, most of the teams that I'd ever been on, the coach just talks about what they're going to. team is running and what the team is doing and executing and all that. I kind of went all the other way and was like, I don't care what we're going to run, but I want everyone be able to shoot dribble and pass. So you have the requisite skills. I think when I first started coaching kids,

you get super frustrated by you tell them to do things and they don't do it, but then you start to realize like, hey, did I actually coach those things to you? Did I teach you how to do it? So the process of like breaking things down. And so now what I've kind of taken to, and I've always done this a little bit as a broadcaster, but pointing out, when I first got into broadcasting,

there was a guy named Dan Steer. Dan hired me and he hired friend Frasilla. And he said, you know, look, what you do as an analyst is you got to answer the question why, right? For there's a lot of people that tell you what, but you don't need to see what. Everybody has a television. They can see what just happened. Oh, that's a great dunk. yeah, no shit, right?

How did he get open? Where is the mistake in the deep? All the stuff that when we watch film as players with coaches or as a coach, like we point things out, how can you do that in a concise fashion? So I've started doing that with kids, which is like one, you do the fundamental drills. Then you do something bigger and then you blow the whistle

when something happens. For example, we do a drill that my dad always taught. It's called Monkey in the Middle, right? Very simple. 15 feet apart, one guy in the middle, he's challenging the ball, you're faking a pass and making a pass, right? But so oftentimes you get into, you're playing against the defense, and a kid gets it on the wing, and he's got somebody cutting into the post or standing open, and you've got to blow the whistle, and you say, this is why we did monkey in the middle.

There's a defender in between you and where you want to throw the basketball, and you can't just throw it straight away. You've got to beg high and throw low. And so I think I totally agree with you. It's like the it's like the fundamentals are the fundamentals. Like they're there for a reason. And so oftentimes you're torn because you want to have the fun workout. But the fun comes from when you actually can master the rudimentary skills. And that's a hard thing for it's a hard thing for little kids, you know, is like, hey, you just got to trust me.

If you do this passing, catching and cutting, the actual playing stuff gets way easy. Yeah, man. And like you said, man, most kids nowadays, they want it immediately, right? And the fundamentals do not come immediately. They take their time to come to you, right? So it's just trying to make that process fun, you know. And young people make it fun, man. They make it fun for you because they get so much enjoyment out of just playing.

You know, as you get older, that tends to be the first thing to go and it becomes a job, right? Whereas when you're around young people, man, they keep you young. That's a great point. And it's something that I felt when I was in, when I play profession, which is like, I wanted to win. I'm a competitor. I want to win every game. Okay. It's not, it doesn't, you don't lose your competitive drive.

But I do feel like it became like a job. Whereas in college, every game I lost, like I was devastated by. It wasn't just for me. It was for all of us, you know, for your coach, for your school, for your teammates. Like there was. and there was a true joy in playing. I didn't necessarily have the joy in practicing. I didn't, you know, like, you know,

I get to college practice at the while. You're like, oh, we used to go forever. But I do think the joy of playing is something that you have to find a way to facilitate the growth up, right? So it is still fun, right? And that's, that's, okay. So here's the question. When you're player coach in New Zealand,

you know, when you guys would lose, would you be critical of yourself? Like, what, how do you, I mean, how do you, do guys call you coach? Did guys call you Mark? Like, what was, like that thing is really interesting here. Yeah, look, it was, it was just awkward all around, right? It was awkward all around, right? Bill Russell was a player coach, you won championships now.

It seemed to work for him. Yeah, the difference is, man, like this is where I worked out that you can't do it very well, right? Is that in our position, you're out the front, you don't see anything that's going on. You know, Bill Russell's position, he's at the back. he can communicate and tell everyone what's going on. He can actually see who's doing their job or not. I have no idea behind me who was doing what.

So when I'm looking at film after the game, then I'm like, oh, okay, I can see where I'm messing up now. That makes perfect sense. But during the game, you know, it just becomes hard. So, you know, I obviously had assistant coaches on the sideline helping me in that, but, you know, they don't want to overstep their bounds and try and tell you what. Plus, you're like the legend. Like, the last thing they want to do is tell Mark Dickel what he didn't see, right?

which was probably a lot but yeah look there was definitely a part of that so like you know the first couple of years i played a lot the third year i hardly played man i just tried to do the job as best i could um okay so you get done um by the way you played in locomotive right you played in russia yeah it was cool it was cool i just should have never left turkey man i should have just never left just stay there the whole time yeah well you know it's you know what it's like it's so hard to get reputation where you've proved yourself. Right. And you don't feel like anymore on a couple of bad games you can be out.

Right. You know, and I've done so. Yeah. And like I've done well enough to whereby now I wasn't doubling my money by going to Russia. That didn't make a whole lot of sense, right? So, you know, I just let the advice I had at the time kind of sway me a little bit.

I mean, I don't regret going to Russia. Great experience in that. But for my wife, Ashley, kids and that, I mean, we would have far rather stayed in Turkey. okay um you your first national team stint was with the albanian national team now here's what i think about albania i thought that was the place everybody had the fake passports from yeah right i remember while i was playing and i could get an israeli passport but other guys like i had a buddy i played with in college and he he has an albanian passport was like what how the hell

you had albanian passports yeah you can play as opposed to me right so did you have of any Albanians or did you have Americans? Who did you have in your team? We had a whole mix, man. We had a, you know, like a whole lot of the players throughout Europe have Albanian ancestry or parents, right? So, you know, it was interesting. We only had three players on our national team that were born and raised there.

All the rest of them play professionally outside either in Turkey, you know, Greece, Russia, Italy. A lot of Albanians play in Italy and the lower levels. over there. So really interesting. I mean, the interesting, most interesting part about that is that, you know, I was playing in Greece at the time and, and I was still playing in Europe. And we played the Albanian national team like a practice game before the playoffs start. And they came right up to the after game. He said, do you want to play on our team? So I was like, sure, I'll play, right? Like, obviously, if the money's right, I'll come and play. You know, like at that time, I hadn't played on the New Zealand

a national team for three years. So naturally you can play for another association. So I went over there, came to find out I can't play on their national team. But you could coach. And the head coach just quit and said, you can do it. Right. So I was like, oh, okay. So that was kind of how I got the first gig.

It wasn't planned. I didn't go over there with the thought of coaching. They kind of just sit here, man, go ahead and do it. So, okay, so when you're coaching, did you just run some of the system stuff that you ran in Greece, some of the stuff you liked in Turkey, some of your own stuff. How did you formally what you wanted to do? Man, I just did whatever I had thought worked previously or that other people had done against me that have worked or that, you know, like just tried to steal everything I could from the other coaches. So like what? So your, your style as a coach. And granted,

obviously you got to fit it to the team into the personnel you have. Okay. So like, like then or now? Let's start with then because it's interesting. I've evolved as well. Like you totally, Right, okay. I don't believe that's what I used to do. Man, most definitely. Well, look, look, man, I kind of thought, you know, and keep in mind, I was 34 then, right? So I kind of thought then, man, I want to play through the bigs. We had good bigs, right?

I want to slow it down because we don't have a whole lot of good guard play, right? Like, this was personnel driven, what I was thinking. And that's kind of how everyone in Europe played, man. You know, like no one was kind of playing up tempo or playing like that. It was, you know, protect the ball, try and keep the score in the 50s or the 60s, trying to out defend them, play a lot of zone. So I just kind of fell in line with that.

And we played in Eurobasket B Division. So we didn't play any of the top teams. So we didn't play Italy, Greece, any of that. We would play like Cyprus or Switzerland or, you know, good teams, don't get me wrong. But you can compete with them, especially with the players we had. So I didn't really want to make it too difficult.

We had really good talent. We just weren't that organized. So now I just tried to slow it down and play through our big. We had three seven footers that could all play and shoot. If the guards play too fast, they quit and would walk up and down the court. So I kind of had to placate them a little bit. And, man, we had some success, man, but it's just not easy in Albania trying to replicate anything. Everything changes, man, like overnight.

You know, like you think it's one way and the next day you wake up and that player is gone and there's another player in, right? It's just a different place. You had no control over and his coach? Oh man Like control What did I control in Albania I controlled what time I got to the gym I controlled what we did once I got to the gym

And I controlled who came in and out of the game Other than that I was just following orders man That's a different place Okay Your most recent stint was with the Filipino national team Right? Yes What was it?

Because I know there's an incredible passion for basketball. But they just have no size. They just have no, like, Jordan Clarkston's like the only thing, right? They hope they can get them back to come play. Like, what was, how did you get that game? Well, three and a half years ago, you know,

kind of was outgrowing New Zealand, started looking at opportunities elsewhere, right? So, you know, got the opportunity two or three quarter years ago to go to Manila and coach a pro team over there, talking text. Baino had actually coached that team in 2003. So that was kind of the connect with the team over there. Yeah, so went over there.

Our team was really successful outside of winning, winning the championship, which is very, very difficult to do over there. I mean, there's so many talented players and talented teams, but just like you said, no size. You know, and especially internationally, that's what traditionally holds them back. So usually what happens is they naturalize a big guy.

Right. So, you know, previously the big guy they naturalized was Andre Blatch, but he actually retired. Well, they said he's no longer on the team when I got the job. So we just went with straight Filipinos. We have one young Filipino who's over playing with the G-League select team, Kai Soto, who's pretty talented. Right. But he's kind of an old school big, right? He's kind of like not really that athletic, but can really play, really skill. But he didn't play on the national team with me when I was there. So, you know, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't. didn't have a whole lot of size. We just part quick, you know, put five shooters on the core and spread everyone out and try and take advantage of the opportunities we get. Give me your craziest Philippine story.

Well, just my first day there, man. I'd obviously been in places where the traffic is bad, right? But so I get there at like five o'clock at night on a Friday, and it takes me five and a half hours to get to the place I'm staying at. And it sure. And it shows. It should take about 20 minutes. Wait, five and a half hours instead of 20 minutes? And it should have taken about 20 minutes. It took me five hours to get. And that was when I was like, oh, I don't know if I can deal with this place.

I'm not going to tell my wife Ashley about this traffic because she will not want to, you know, it was like that one. Right. It was, I just couldn't believe it. And we didn't move. I'm talking. We didn't move. Yeah. So like, you know, I could have got out and walked it in an hour and a half, right?

Like, it's like that type of thing. And the people are everywhere. and nobody adheres to any rules regarding traffic. Right? They just go. That reminds me like Russia. Remember Russia? Like Russia,

you go to like McDonald's, Moscow. No lines, no rules. I just felt like in Russia there was no real rules. They were like, everyone just cuts in, right? Like the whole cut in,

I didn't get that either. Everything was just suggestions. It's like stop signs, basic rules, anything, just a suggestion. You know, if you have money,

oh, well, that's totally different. If you have money, you know? All right. It's an amazing, like we live in, this is the same universe I live in? Now, did Manny Packyell ever show up and try and work out with you guys?

No, but I did see him at a couple of games in that. I mean, he's just obviously a god over there. They love basketball over there. It's like, it's what they know, man. And it's really interesting because they're not suited for that game at all. Like, you know, body type was, I mean, it should be really soccer or football or something like that, right? But, man, they love it. They know it.

they really educated in it too and great fans. You know, like the PBA over there that I coached in the pro league, great league, really good players, you know, been a long time running. No, it was good, man. Like really good basketball education, but two and a half, three years was long enough.

Yeah, that's a lot. Okay, so now what now? Well, now, man, just trying to get on something over here. You know, I felt like, you know, I'm kind of 10 years into this coaching thing now and I'm 44. You know, I see a whole lot of my friends.

and colleagues and that guys I played with are over here excelling, right? You know, kind of really proud of them, but want to get amongst it, man. You know, I think I have a lot to offer. Yeah, and just love the game. You know, I watch as much as I can. You've seen it from so many different angles. It's interesting that you've coached, but you know this from playing. Like, if you've played and you've played in all these different countries

and all these different systems, like it's like that when Nash got the job, when people are like questioning like, well, he hasn't coached before. Like, have you ever played point guard? Why was that? Why did he get all that hate? What was that about? Like if there's anyone who's born to coach, if there's anyone who for the last 30 years, you would look at and be like, dude, it looks like he's coaching the team out there.

It kind of looks like he's doing all that. Because you are like it's so different than footballing, right? And look, I think quarterbacks could do it. But quarterbacks, they have different meeting rooms than every. everybody else. Like, there's five guys and you can't hear your coach most of the time, right? And you barely, guys barely pay attention to their coach. Like, the point guard is everything. And the idea that like, well, you know, you have to have, don't get me wrong, there's lots of administrative stuff that you don't know how to do. Okay. And you have to learn, I think

substituting is an art, but I think most point guards know who should be in and who should be out. And you can look at a guy, know, if he's gas and he's tired. You know, but it's more administrative stuff and in college it's about recruiting and boosters and all the other shit but the actual basketball stuff like dude that's a rap you know i've seen this 15 times over i know exactly i've seen this puzzle i know i know the answer to it right that's what that's what it feels like that the harder part is getting the kid who hasn't seen enough to instantly react how do i teach him so that he instantly reacts you know my my issue is and and you know sometimes you'll have a guy who's a long time assistant coach. Well, he's been a long time assistant coach. We're like, look, if you sat there,

you have a lot of ideas, but you've never put them in play. And you've only seen it from the perspective of your system. Whereas if you've played, like, I, how many, how many, pro, do you know how many countries you played in? Maybe eight or nine. Okay. And then how many different coaches? 20, 25? Yeah. And everybody sees, and, and though you don't agree with most of this shit, they tell you, you learn some from every guy. I like, ooh, I don't, ever I didn't think of that. Like that was that was kind of cool. And like you said, like all the stuff that worked, do you want to do?

All the stuff that didn't work, you don't want to do. And the stuff that you like, and then you try and coach the way you want to be coached. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't because it depends upon the kid. But I agree. Like, even without all of your coaching, like you've lived 50 different basketball eyes as opposed to most guys. I think the problem you'll run into is in the college game, you know, it's so much if it's about basketball families.

Now, so some Aussies may help you, right? Right. Because New Zealanders are like, you guys are like cousins, right? So I mean, they may hook you up. But what I found in the college game is it's a lot of, your head coach is the head of the patriarch of the basketball family. And those are all your connections. Whereas, you know, keeps in the NBA and Billy before he took a breaks in the NBA.

And your guys are kind of in the NBA. You guys are kind of in the NBA. So that's where it's weird. It's like it's not necessarily on merit more of who you know and what basketball family. Yeah, look, look, man. I'm well aware of what you're saying, right? But my kind of feeling is, man, I'll just do whatever I got to do to get an opportunity. And if I get an opportunity, once I do, it's going to be a rat, man.

I'll just take my opportunity and run with it. You know, it's interesting. I had a conversation with Dan Dachach, who's a former coach now broadcaster on the show. And we were talking about, and this is where it fits perfectly to me and you, is you don't have a point guard college basketball. It's going to make you look like a bad coach, even if you're not. And you look at a lot of these teams that are struggling this year.

Duke's point guard play, not good. They lost theirs early the NBA draft. Kansas, I don't know why Dotson left for the NBA draft. You know, Michigan State, you lose an all-time great point guard leader. You don't have it. What is it like for you to try and teach somebody to be you? You were a leader. You are the kind of.

consummate and you sacrifice your scoring for your team. What is that process like for you to try and teach somebody to do the subtle things that you instinctively knew how to do for 20 years as a pro? Just personality, man. Personality traits is huge, right? Like, is he inherently unselfish? And if he is, it's going to be easy to make that guy understand exactly why you should be unselfish.

And, you know, the problem nowadays you find is there's so many people think they're a scoring point, right? or so many people evaluate their success each game based off how many points they get, right? So, you know, it's, the game's changing all the time, but the idea that the player with the ball is going to make the game easier for everyone else is still strong, right? So how do you get people, you know, how do you get players to understand that? You know, you're actually sacrificing for everyone else, but trust me, the players, sorry, the coaches that know, will know that it's you out there doing good stuff. So how do you get a player to understand that? A million hours of film and evaluating each and every practice and watching film with them, watching every game, watching every basketball game you get with them of somebody else,

and eventually it clicks in. If you don't have that time with that person, it's really hard. Well, that's, I think, the hardest part about college is they limit the amount of time we have with guys. And people think it's protecting the players, but it's not. it's actually hurting the players developed in many ways. There's a smart way to do it. It's interesting, you point out the ability to make people better. Like, that's what makes somebody a great player.

You make everybody else kind of around you better. And you learn about other people. And personality traits are a fantastic way to kind of evaluate that. It is frustrating, though, when you, I'm sure you've experienced this, when you see something and you know what's coming, you know what happens. and the player your coaching is like a second late and doesn't see it. Like, how can you not, it's just, you know what I mean? Because I would guess that you and I view the basketball like a play the exact same way, right?

I know that I'm reading the idea of the play is this guy coming off of a flare screen, but the second his man hedges out, I know the slip's going to be open. I know exactly what I have to throw the ball. And I think that I always thought that like everybody sees it. Then you start coaching, you're like, no, you didn't see it at all, did you? Like, no, I have no idea. I missed it. Or by the time they see it, it's too late.

And you know, it's too late that it's going to be stolen. That's the part that I find to be the most kind of tenuous. Really interesting because, like, I had so many debates. I call them debates with players because they're not arguments, right? Because he might have just seen something different. But the reality is, oftentimes they're looking at that downstream to occupy the other two players on the weak side of the court so they can take their player one-on-one. Sure.

They're not even really looking at the play or hoping the play develops. Like it's really interesting. When you see what the players see, you're able to work out how far they're going to go, right? Like, you know, like you go and watch an eight or nine-year-old kid that can see the court, man. I'll tell you, that kid's going to be really good. I don't care if he grows or not, right? So, you know, passing is kind of a lost art, but I don't really know how you teach it either. Right?

Like, it's a really, really hard one. It's really hard. really hard. I think you have to, one, you have to give them the fundamentals of and, and hone them, right? Every pass. At first, they have to be able to throw a chest pass. They have to have a little pass to either hand. They have to be able to use bounce pass. They have to be able to throw baseball passes and hook pass whenever. And then you have to kind of show them a little bit. And then, you know, then they have to see it. The problem I found is that they don't, I used to watch game. I used to come home and watch the Big East, because I grew up in

morning. The Big Easterers on a four o'clock every Monday, big Monday, right? So I'd watch all these dudes. A lot of West Coast guys and you're watching them. So I come home and I watch and then I go and shoot outside, right? Or I go to practice, whatever. And kids, I don't, they don't watch games nearly as much. They'll watch highlights and stuff on the phone, you know. So I got a text today from my son where he saw this on TikTok, some way to beat his own. And it's kind of what I've been telling him, but it's the first time he's ever shared with me a video. And I was like, I was like almost in tears. Like, this is beautiful.

It's beautiful. Can't believe it. You can't believe it. Okay. Dream scenario for you. In five years, you're aware. Doing what? Man, I'll be a hit coach of a college team somewhere.

That would be a dream scenario. I mean, are you guys going to be like St. Mary's bringing a bunch of Aussies and a bunch of tall blacks in there? Or are you going to have some fellows too? I'm going to get to have people. from all around the world, man, Turkey. You said, yeah, you have a Turkish connection.

That's not an issue, man. I got people over there that are itching to come. You know, to me, to me, it's, you know, with the way the rules are now, and you can just transfer people in. I mean, there's no excuse to not be great every year. I mean, like, if your program's right, and they can see that what you're doing is successful, and you're churning pros out, meaning guys either going to the NBA or overseas,

why would they not want to come? Right? You don't have to sit out a year anymore. I mean, there's really no. excuse to be bad one year and bad the next right they're kind of taking those excuses out now well we'll wait till you get your own head coaching job and we'll see if you you agree with that i i do agree but again you come up short in a point guard dude gets hurt got a kid guy out of school guy leaves really for the pros you didn't expect like there's all kinds of all kinds all kinds of

craziness or you sign a guy and then he gets off for the pro con you sign a foreign kid and he signs a pro contract you know to to stay home um okay couple last bit more on the best player you ever played against can be anywhere anywhere in the world the guy who's just like that guy wore me out okay killette alameen and in turkey he got me a few times and and i didn't really like it that much because i thought he was fat he is bad i got to be on it he's really good but but i but you know and it kind of hurt my feelings because that's the only thing i wasn't right so so so but he was just really clever really good and and and he talks shit the whole time too so it just made it worse right but uh but but but he was really good he was great in

europe uh he should have been a 10 year NBA guy I thought he was super talented um who else was good okay I've been told like in Australia you know you you you go and you play ball and then you go get pissed right you get go drink and you have a great time is is is the mentality the same for New Zealanders as it is for Australia man completely so I'm not a drink and it'll be a drinker, so that's not my thing. But yeah, that's completely it. Like, there's two games. It's a game on the court, and then there's a game afterwards. So they're trying to win both of them, right? But this is also culturally what makes it so enjoyable to play there is that both players on both teams are all cool. There's not that animosity or hatred or envy or any of that. They, you know,

they play hard in the game and then have fun off it. Did you think Melo Ball would be this impactful this really? Yes. I thought he'd be, I thought he'd do better than what he is. How come? I mean, he can be a really pass. But what's his gift? His gift is passing, yes. And he's huge. He's six, eight. So he can see over the defense. So it's just the matter of opportunities.

When I saw him play in the Australian League, the first thing I noticed is, man, he sees over the top of the D.P. He sees everything. If he can ever hit a shot consistently, man, that guy's going to be unguarable, right? And, and I didn't think his defense would be. be as good as what it has been in the NBA? Because he was really bad in Australia comparatively. That was my problem with him was like there was nothing there defensively.

Now he also avoided contact a lot when he drove, but he's a better, the problem that his brother had was a brother was a bad shooter but also a terrible finisher. And he's actually a pretty good finisher. And he knows how to use his body. He's got a little bit more kind of shit to him, you know what I mean?

And he's the youngest, though. He's the youngest, man. So he, you know, come on, man. He's been sitting there watching everything, and he's smart. He's incredibly intelligent. I heard that from the players that he played with in Elawar, Australia, like really smart. Studies film, works hard, not an ego guy, right? Like, cool, right? So I kind of thought he'd do what he's doing, to be honest with you.

I'm not surprised at all. Okay, last thing. What was the coolest Vegas moment? You're in Vegas. You mentioned your coached in the Filipino national team. and coaching a pro team, so Pac-yao was at games. But in Vegas, when you guys were good, it was a, you guys were like the Lakers of the town.

It's a who's who at big games. Or maybe when you run out of night. Just give me one cool Vegas store. Man, there's so many, right? All right, so we're at the Hard Rock Hotel after we play a game. Always. Circle bar. We were there, circle bar.

And I lived right behind there at the Paradise Bay Club at the time, too. And I think I was only 19 at the time, which is neither here or there. Right. And I looked like I was about 12 when I was 19. So I don't know why I was in there. But I can remember being in there. And I forget who I was with someone from the team. And he tapped me on my shoulder.

And he was like, hey, look, I think that guy over there looks like Tom Cruise, but he's way too short to be Tom Cruise, right? And so I looked over it. And you got to remember, there's no internet or nothing back then. Now, how would we know how tall dude is? He looks tall in the movies, right? Like cop gun and that. He's playing beach volleyball.

It looks tall. So I'd look over at him and there's two bodyguards deal with him. So I was like, dude, I think, I think that's right. I think that's Tom Cruise. So I go right over to him and I try to go near him and they stopped me going near him. So that's when I was like, damn, that's Tom Cruise. And I just couldn't believe that, A, he was out there where we were and that the dudes only like 5, 2, 5.3. I just couldn't believe he was that short.

No way. He's not that small. Man, he's short. Man, he was short. I know he was short. I don't know about 5, 5, 253. That's unbelievable. Hey, when I looked at him, the first thing I thought was there's no way.

that he could be in movies and all that. You know what I mean? Like that's short. Maybe 5'5. Like anyone who's under 5'9, to me looks really short, right? Like I look straight away and I thought, damn, that's really Tom Cruise. And he was maybe the biggest movie star on the planet. And he's just walking around like you are.

Okay, here's what we're going to do. Okay, we're going to take maybe a week. Okay. And I want you to do, take some notes on some college hoop guys you want to talk about. And on some NBA stuff we want to talk about. And this one's about you. And the next one, we'll just talk ball about what's going on. Is that cool?

Man, awesome, man. Let's do, man. Whenever, with it. All right, great. I really appreciate you join us. I look forward to find out what's next. Take care of that back and those kiddos and let's talk soon. Man, thanks a lot, buddy.

We'll talk later. Okay. Thanks, bro. Okay, that's it for my talk with Mark Dickle. We'll pump out another one of these here and the weekend to give you kind of the landscape of where college basketball sits, especially as we get ready for March. For the meantime, remember listening to Doug Gowley Show,

3 to 6 Eastern Time or 12 to 3 Pacific on your Fox Sports radio station, your IHeart Radio app or wherever you had downloaded this podcast, you can download that one. In the meantime, thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review, something like that. No, download, subscribe, and rate. And if you write a review, too, I might get a little bit more money out.

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