The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - NBA Agent Todd Ramasar on Representing Baron Davis, Pascal Siakam and Negotiating Against Isiah Thomas

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

In this episode, Doug is joined by agent Todd Ramasar discusses his hoops upbringing in inland Southern California, why he chose to walk on at UCLA, the surprising way he ended up representing Baron Davis, what sold him about an unknown Pascal Siakam, what it was like negotiating against Isiah Thomas as an inexperienced young agent, and his plans over the next decade. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes,

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Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this valentines with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more. Surprise your Valentine with 1-800flowers.com. Right now, get the 18-stemstem. enchanted rose medley for $3999 or upgrade to 24 red roses for $10 more. Go to 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800 flowers.com slash tune in. Hey, what I'm welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball. Um, uh, quick note, we are going to have a Summer League recap, All Ball for you coming up. I have a litany of really good

and interesting guests. And, um, you know, we've, We've diverged at some point from Always basketball. We had Maurice Claret. If you missed all three parts of that, that was pretty amazing stuff. This week's All Ball, I think you're really going to like because I love interesting, brilliant people. And I

really like people that love the sport that you love. But also, sometimes you're not good enough to always play it, right? But you can still find an incredible career in it. Todd Ramasar is an amazing story, right? Son of immigrants. He grew up, for the most part,

in Norco, California. He'll tell you what Norco was like 40 years ago. But he grew up in like kind of farm country just outside of Los Angeles, really near Chino Hills where the ball brothers grew up and became a very good basketball player. But even though he had good grades, wasn't recruited at a high level,

walked on at UCLA, got a scholar. I don't want to give way the whole story. Anyway, how did he become the youngest agent in NBA history? How did he, where did the relationships come from? what are his thoughts and agents running teams? What's it like to get fired as a representative of a player? All of that stuff is in here.

Plus some awesome stories about playing basketball at UCLA. All right. I think you'll like it. By the way, if you like my stuff, you can listen to the Doug Gottlieb show daily, 3 to 6 Eastern, 123 Pacific on the IHeartRadio app or on Fox Sports Radio.com. Or you can also download that podcast at your discretion.

All right. Without further ado, here's Superstar Agent, Todd Ramesar. Tom, when you became a certified agent for 24 years old, which sounds really young, but I mean, one of the things that's interesting about your basketball life was you're really young when you graduate in high school. Let's go back. Okay. So you grew up in Norco.

Now, for people who don't know where Norco is, okay, really close to Chino Hills, but again, we're talking about Norco 20 years ago, 25, 30 years ago. Even now, you're driving in a. Norco, and it says, horse country, U.S.A. Right. How does an immigrant family from the West Indies, how did you guys make it to Norco? Yeah, so I have an older brother, Doug. He was born in New York. My parents, my parents were from two different countries, Haiti and British Guyana. So they met in New York. My dad was in the telephone company. My mother was in an RN. And my dad got a transfer request from the telephone company.

So it was either Florida or California. And I just found this out recently from my mom. She had dreams of California. She had never been so sight unseen. She's like, we're going to California. So we ended up in, you know, I was born in Fullerton. We ended up, you know, I was born in Orange County, lived in Orange County until probably right before I was two years old.

And then we moved to, um, We moved to Norco in 19, I think 1980, 1981. So as you mentioned, with you being from Tustin, Doug, you know, even Anaheim Hills, that whole corridor area wasn't what it is now or even 20 years ago. This is, you know, 40 years ago almost. So it was more farmland cattle, more of a Midwest field than anything else. Yeah. So your love for basketball, because you played football.

and you're kind of a stud at football early on in high school. But was it because your brother played? Like what drew you to basketball? Yeah, it was my older brother. You know, I got drawn to football because of my older cousin. He was eight years older than me. This is back when the Inland Empire didn't have too many high schools. He played a Norco High School, which was the Powerhouse High School,

that in Eisenhower in the Inland Empire before Corona Centennial. So I was always playing with older guys, my older brother, my older cousin in football. But when my brother started playing basketball at a young age, I just fell in love with it. And then, as you know, Doug, for us growing up in Southern California, the Lakers were hot. So my idol was magic. You know, you're watching, you're growing up in Southern California. You know, the Lakers were in, what, the finals nine out of 11 years or 10 years? I mean, it's hard not to love basketball.

So that's where my affinity for the game grew. when I would emulate, I would try to emulate magic on the, on the court. It is interesting, right, that your first big client with Barron, who's like, who's just a mini magic, right? Like a way more athletic magic. That was who Barron reminded everybody up just as ability to control a game. And the truth is, Barron's not really old enough. I mean, I know he played against him at the Ben's gym, some, you know,

but he's not really old enough to have experienced the real magic. There is an interesting kind of full circle to it. Okay, so you're playing high school basketball, but you went to J.W. North. How far is, and for people who don't know, J.W. North is, that's Reggie Miller, right? No, no, no. Doug, Reggie went to Riverside Polly. Riverside Polly, sorry. Quincy Brewer, I think, was the, was right before you.

He was like a two, three combo score. J. Dub always had dudes, right? Yeah, Corey Benjamin. What? Hey, Pam, ballers, right? Like, that was, Inland Empire was producing some dudes back then. Keith Anhorne was, was, wasn't that for you. He was Diamond Bar, right?

Diamond Bar, yep. Yeah, I remember Mike. You had, you had, I'll go through really quick. One team, one team had four starters in the Pack 10 on it on that J.W. North team. There was Quincy Brewer that went to ASU, Ed Gray that ended up at Cal, sunny Benjamin at Oregon State, and then Corey Benjamin. as well.

And then we were all the generation right after. But they went to eight finals, CIF Southern Section finals in a row. Yeah. Trayvon Carmichael was Fontana high school, right? Yeah. Sean Battle. What happened to him?

What happened to him? He was, I mean, we got to do it where in the world? Because Trayvon Carmichael, I remember we went to ABCD in 94, and he was our three and he was on the team. We had never heard of this dude. And he was like 6'4, look like a football player.

He was nasty. He was feeling deep dunk on some dudes. The guy was dunked. I swear, the guy was jumping off of two feet from free throw line in games, it seems like. And him and Corey were, him, Corey and Jamal Slaughter were teammates at Fontana after Corey transferred from North. But talented team. Yeah, Foha High was pretty legit back then.

Okay. So, so, education obviously is a huge in your, in your household. Now, is that, did your parents come home and, and, you know, make you do work? Like, how was, why was education so, such an important part of your upgrade? I think, you know, I'd say this is probably the immigrant mentality overall. It's like, you know, everyone I think that tends to immigrate to the U.S. is for a better way of life, not just for themselves, but for their kids. And so like, you know, like a lot of immigrant families is, hey, you're going to be a doctor or a lawyer.

So, you know, my brother's. Or maybe, or maybe if you're, if you like this Jewish family says, doctor, lawyer. And if you got, if you got nothing going for you, account. You can meet a counselor. Right. Right. Exactly. And maybe that's changed or evolved now.

I got, I got some Indian buddies. Or they're like, yeah, Todd, it was a doctor attorney or engineer. And now it's like, okay, entertain it. Entertainment, executive. other things. But for us, that's, that's the route we took. My brother owns his own practice. He's a chiropractor. Technically, I guess you can say a doctor. He went that route. I know, right? I'm trying to do him. Here's the, here's the thing with a chiropractor, okay? Carriarcher's not a doctor. A doctor is somebody gets sick on a plane, okay? Somebody gets sick on a plane and he says,

is there a doctor here like, chiropractor is like, yeah, I got you, right? On the other hand, On the other hand, let's be honest, in terms of daily health and usefulness, oh, when you get a rib out or you're not right, there's nobody in the world you'd rather have than a chiropractor like etch on your, on yourself on it. That's the beauty of having a chiropractor in the family. You wake up with a stiff neck or it's been a long road trip. By 10 minutes away, I go see him. So thin.

Okay. And for me, it was, you know, I ended up leaving law school, but I went to, I went to law school. That was, it was kind of, you know, for me, that was the path I was going to pursue, but not use my law degree to be, say, just a traditional lawyer from the sense of, you know, corporate law or something like that. It was always in pursuing sports as an agent. So take me through the decision to go to UCLA. What was it like? This is still Herrick, right? They were, they were rolling. I mean, how about me? I'm the year before. and I turn him down and they take Brandon.

Oh, man, what's the kid's name? He was from Oklahoma. You know, oh, man, Brandon. What's the dude's name? He was a sophomore when you were a freshman. We had Farnham. We had, um, thinking about, now he's a backup boy guard because you had from,

Brandon Lloyd. Yeah, Brandon Lloyd. So, so they, so, so, Stefan, Marbury was the guy everybody wanted. And I was like the fallback guy. My sister was at cheerleader there. A brother went there. And then I turned him down.

I got to Notre Dame. And then they win the national championship. I was sitting there like, are you kidding me? Right? Like I love UCLA basketball. They win the national championship. What went into your decision to go there? I mean, it was just that.

Like for me, it was a dream. For me, growing up playing football and basketball, if I was playing football, I was going to USC. You know, that's just what it is. And for basketball, my dream, since I was playing that growing up, it was to go to UCLA. And then so I, because I satisfied both things, it was always athletics, academics. Both schools are great, right? I'm proud to be a brewing.

And it was, it was a natural choice for me. But, you know, I checked into school, Doug so young, I was 17. I was a late bloomer. The top 100, I ended up walking on because, like, I turned down some other schools. Like, that was my dream. Plus, I was competitive. I thought I could walk on and earn a scholarship, which I did. And I just wanted to be part of a special class with, you know, that class out of Southern California, I think we can argue, 97 might have been one of the most talented classes in Southern California, right?

Chris Burgess, Baron Davis, you know, Shea Cotton, Kenny Bruner, the Collins twins. I mean, you're- I don't know, man, look, you go back to, I think it's, there was a class with Tracy Murray, McLean. I think that was Sean Mills, was in that class as well. Who else was in that? Chris Mills, Chris Mills,

Chris Mills, Derek Martin, like they were all like same class. That was a, I think Adam Kipp was at class too. That was a crazy class. Then my junior year, which is I actually,

I was a late bloomer, so I stayed back in eighth grade. So I was 17 when you graduated high school. I was 19 when I graduated high school. But 94 had a couple of your teammates, Chris Johnson, J.R. Henderson, right? Toby. Toby Bailey. Yep. Had Miles Simon.

It had, God, you go through it. It was. Even if you want to throw in Tony and Tony Gonzalez was married. Tony Gonzalez was my teammate. Cameron Murray, Tracy's brother as well. Like, there's been some really, really. So, okay, so when you first get there as a walk on, but you're like a recruited walk on, You're not like a dude.

And my brother went there to walk on. Herrick helped him get in. And then Lou Roe beat him. Lou, what's his name? He ended transferring to Clemson and playing. Now he's coached at Northern California. I know who you're talking about. Yep.

Yeah. And like nobody knew he was. He showed up and kicked his ass to tryouts. And Greg was like, I didn't make a team. So it was better than me. And he goes on and starts at Clemson. So when did Herrick give you a scholarship? it was so herrick got fired so my freshman year lab that was lab we were labs first recruiting class right

so we were all recruited by romar harrick lav and then that that was junior year by senior year and the time we were checking in is when all that all that happened and herrick was no longer there romar had left and laughed his head coach so we were they componed herrick they capone him they got him for they got him for expense receipts come on man they Yeah, anywhere else in the country, that's a flyer. Like, that's a, that's a, that's a give me. Oh, come on. Come on.

Okay, so, so you're, your freshman. Mm-hmm. What do you remember about how it went down? So for people who don't, who have forgotten, okay, when they signed Barron, they did some, I mean, frankly, it's some crazy stupid shit, right? Like, his, his sister worked in the basketball office, and the Herrick's son sold him as like, Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way,

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Chevy Blazer. I don't even, and it was front page of the LA Times. And really it was a bunch of other little stuff. And then they like found the expense report steel. But what was it like for you? Like here you are, 17 year old kid from Riverside, walk on trying to make it. And all the stuff goes down.

There's a coaching change. What do you remember about that time? Lab was my lead recruiter. So it wasn't, I didn't get caught up, to be honest, in any of it. It was just lab still, you know, hair got fired, lab coached the year prior in which they went to the lead eight. I want to say, Johnny went down with an injury to his sternum. There's another one, 96, Johnny McCoy. He was nice.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, coming in, it's like, they're, you know, for us, it was fresh off a championship in some ways in 95. they made a run the year before. We're coming in with the number one recruiting class. You know, Shane Cotton, Baron, Earl Watson, Enrico Hines, Moose had just transferred. You know, I'm walking on and I'm ranked 75 in the country.

And, you know, Billy Knight, Travis Reed, we were loaded. So there was nothing but excitement. I wasn't even thinking about that. And then as you know, Doug, you're going into the men's gym, playing against magic and doing the summer program. It was a dream come true. I didn't think twice about it. Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports

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So you get there. When did Ladd give you a scholarship? I'm going into my sophomore year. What was that conversation like with your parents? Oh, they were ecstatic. You know, because I really put in a lot of work. between my freshman and sophomore year. And, you know, freshman year was an adjustment.

You know, as you said, you know, coming in a 17, you know, the seniors were all the guys that won the championship as freshman, Toby, J.R. Chris Johnson. And of course, Jalani McCord was there and Brandon Lloyd. And then you got all these guys coming from all over the country. Rico's coming from Hardgrave and St. John's Prospect Hall, Barron's there, Earl. You know, so it was a diverse competitive group. I think we walked away bloodied every day in practice. So for me, it was great.

You know, I can't say I was surprised because that was a goal, but it was great to at least take that burden and hit that accomplishment of earning that scholarship at UCLA. Okay, here's one of the things that I always found to be interested. So the national championship team had like 11 dudes that played the NBA. It was like something crazy in terms of number of dudes that played the NBA. Like everybody, I mean, and honestly, Chris Johnson didn't play, but if Chris Johnson was now, like, guys a stretch, guy's a small ball four or five.

He's unbelievable, like perfect, perfect guy, right? So unbelievable talented team in 95 wins an national chance. If you guys just had dude up to do it up to. And if you would have walked in that locker room and asked how many you guys are going to the NBA, everybody would have raised their hands, right? Everyone. Right. When did in your mind you think like, hey, agent, agents, my past.

It was probably my, it was probably my, I would say, going into my sophomore year. Actually, no, I take that back, Doug. If I had to revisit, it was probably my sophomore year. I ended up starting, but, you know, we had the number one recruiting class coming in in 97, 98, followed by another number one recruiting class, Matt Barnes, Duran Rush, Ray Young, Dan Gazzarish, Jerome, Moiso. I mean, they were loaded. Dude.

Dude! Yeah. So coming in, putting in all that work. starting for a game or two and then not seeing the court until the end of my sophomore year in like sporadic minutes. It was like, no, that was a reality check. You know, I thought about transferring and everything, but I was like, you know what? Why am I transferring? Yeah, I could play.

But getting this degree from UCLA, I know I'm going to be in Southern California. And I knew I wanted to go to grad school. So at the end of that sophomore years when I started working for Arn, tell him, Barney and Lefgan, pro, all the UCLA guys were signing with Arn at the time, which was telling him in associates. And then that was my segue into the business at 19. I got so many things, gosh, just so much stuff. Okay, I would make the case. Barring Torres ACL on a filthy crossover,

dunks on a dude in the NCAA tournament. I know we were in the same region. I saw it happen. I think we're in the same region. I saw it happen. And. But, Doug, that was still, I've never seen somebody tear their ACL on a more nasty play than that.

That was, I tell people all the time, that was. Was it when he landed or when he jumped? He jumped so high, Doug, and I was looking down the court. He jumped so high. His head was at the rim, eye level. He pulled himself up with his momentum. I don't think Baron knew how high he was. So it was on the landing.

He put all that weight, all his weight on one leg when he landed. And that's what made it pop. It wasn't. It's interesting. He doesn't like me. I still don't know why. We haven't ever how to, we'll have to chop it up at some point in time.

It's interesting because my, uh, because my, my dad was like, when I, because that, the year before he, when he was a senior,

I was sitting out after transfer from Notre Dame. And they basically like, look, we get baron, we're going to take baron. And if not, and I was like people's second choice, Georgia Tech second choice.

Kansas, I was somewhere down the line or whatever. Anyway, but my dad was like, look, that's the best high school point guard I've ever seen. Jolani Gardner used to be the guy that he thought was the next match, Johnson. Then he was like, Barron's the best have ever seen.

He still had a very, very good career, very good career. What would he have been like had he not 20? Doug, I think Baroness was such, if you really revisit that, you know, and that's our generation, 99 when he tore, 98 when he tore it, That was still at a time when the ACL surgery, like the procedure, it could go either way. Like it wasn't like now where 100% you come back stronger. So we were right there where like, you know, Baron tears it in March. He was back playing by the end of that same year.

That's the type of freak he was. A lot of people don't know this. Like Kobe would come to our practices the following year. Baron wasn't clear to play. Him and Kobe are playing one-on-one on the sideline. and Barron's wearing this huge knee brace. So I don't, honestly, if he doesn't tear it, I think he's still the same player.

Maybe he's the number one player because maybe we continue going on in March. But that sophomore year, he comes back and he's healthy, you know, and he was a highlight reel. It still goes number three. Well, what I, so if you remember his first game back who played against us, I got thrown out of the game at halftime, whatever.

And he flopped into a, a technical foul. But he wasn't, he wasn't moving right yet. He was still heavy and he had that brace. That, that massive break. But Doug, what was in December, right?

That was November. That was December, yeah, in Anaheim. Yeah, if you think about that, that's only eight months after the injury. Yeah. Nine months? Yeah, crazy. Yeah, that's crazy even in today's standards.

I have Thomas Bryant that tour his ACL and, you know, it's 11 to 12 months until they're, you know, he's fully back is what they're, protecting. Don't tell me that. I tore mine like two months ago. I just got my surgery two weeks ago. But I'm too old to make it. I'm too old to make a real come. But my goal is, my goal is to play basketball and tennis next summer. That's my personal, personal goal. Okay. So, so you're in your mind. You're like, I mean, between Arndtellum and I don't know how big Wasserman was at that time as well, like you're in L.A., UCLA basketball, super hot.

would you start interning during here's a here's a here's a sorry here's a question yeah why do you think why do you think um why do you think war guys don't have

the mentality or the understanding or maybe the value of that degree I understand and respect that the best of the best you're going to make so much money for an NBA player but I just

Guys bounce around schools now and it's like there's a couple parts to it. There's one, there's the degree, but there's two. There's the connection you make with the university. Yeah. And you don't you don't get that as a as a grad transfer. And the place you leave, you're not really an alum of. And the place you go to, you're not really an alum. Like, look, dude, you were there for six, seven months.

Like, that ain't, that ain't your school. You know, so, I mean, I was lucky like Oklahoma State's my school. I went to Notre Dame. I love Notre Dame. I would love to have, and the reason I went there is the connections, the subway alums. I thought I'd love to play. If I can't play, I'd love to broadcast or coach.

All of it is, or be in business and all that. Notre Dame's an unbelievable connection of alums. But I don't, I don't really understand why so many, so many, even professional athletes, don't tell kids like, hey, look at Todd's path and Todd's understanding of it. that maybe not even being an agent, but just using the value of that degree and the connections at a university in order to propel you for the rest of your life. So this is purely a theory, right? Because. Okay. Well, a hypothesis then.

Right. Hypothesis, right? It is different from our generation, Doug, because we're getting older. We're going to be old timers here pretty soon, right? The mentality of us playing, it was pure. And not saying it's not pure for all the guys now, but it was sports. It wasn't entertainment. Now it's much more synonymous with entertainment. So I'm not an entertainment agent or represent any actors or actresses or even musicians for that matter. But what I can imagine is how many of them went to college as well before they started acting?

And my point being is like athletes now, their goal is to become a pro. So the quickest path to becoming a pro, it's not having that relationship with the university or going there for four years. It's just different, in my opinion, a different way of thinking than how we thought because you weren't a one and done back then. Two and done, that was, that was quick, Steph, Barron. You know, you usually went three or four years, right? Even Michael Jordan, three years, you know, magic, bird, like all these guys that were even before us, it wasn't the one and done or even now. now having, you know, the G-League Ignite program or overtime, like, that wasn't there. I understand that everyone's story is different, right?

Totally respect that. Okay. And so when you say, is it the right mentality, the wrong mentality, you're going to get people that, let's say, well, like, you haven't grown up in my shoes, you don't know, kid could go and play. I respect that. Okay. But isn't that the wrong?

Aren't we, isn't it the wrong? mentality? Like, the truth is that this is my honest belief, okay, that the, look, our education system at the high school and lower levels still stink. There's still a great education disparity based upon where you, where you grow up and what your, what your background is. And the equalizer is the scholarship. That's the whole intent of the whole thing. It's the equalizer. It puts you on even footing where you weren't on even footing when you came up for your education in high school. And I guess I don't. There's a. There's just too many bad actors, in my opinion, in basketball that it's not that they want the kid to achieve.

They want a little piece of the, they want a little piece of the action, you know? But I think that's, I just think I understand that's the new mentality. I think it's the wrong mentality. I think it's the anything really good is worth waiting for, working for. I know there's exceptions. I know there's guys that don't need four years of college, that don't need three years. years of college, but what you think you don't need is the college basketball. What you do need is everything else.

And, and I just, I think all of us soon to be old timers, we get to like, well, it's the new generation. You just got to accept, do you? Or can you try and find a way to gather enough of us to go like, look, I get it. There's going to be Jalen Greens. There's going to be Kate Cunningham's. Those guys are freaks. But for the rest of everybody else, this is what you need.

This is the best thing for your rest of your life. And that mentality is a bad one. You know what, Doug? It's all based on circumstance. Like, we could, like, Kobe didn't go to college, right? And God rest of soul. But, like, if he's assuming Kobe continues on the path, this is a guy that didn't step foot on college and had very successful career, right?

And is a brilliant, sharp individual. But I tell you this, like, even when I step foot on campus with my background and education being a priority, it was intimidating. I'll be honest with you. like the summer program where you're having to produce papers. And if, you know, you could have guys that go through high school want to go to college, it's like, hold on.

Like, I don't know if I could balance both. And you know this. It's really hard. It depends on the program where if you're working, you know, practicing three hours. You know, lab at us practicing three hours a day. Then it's an hour of waits.

Then you're getting PT. Then you need to get extra work in. And then you got study hall. Like, it's a, it's a tough load. So, So is it good or bad? I don't know.

Like I'm a proponent of college, but at the same time, it's like, you know, it's all relative to circumstance. Look at my guy, Josh Primo this year, youngest guy in the draft. People were saying,

you know, why are you going, why are you going in the draft? You came off the bench. You average under 10 points. And then here he is. He's a lottery pick. And, you know,

can you argue that? Next year, you know, God forbid, if there's an injury or something else, then people are being critical and saying, you should have left early. You should have left when you were projected a higher. So, look, hindsight's always 2020.

I'm a big data guy. I say I'm not the smartest guy in the room. Let me look at the data. I could argue going back to the days of high school players turning pro that the percentage of high school players that turned pro had greater success than the ones that maybe stayed four years in college at the end of their career. If you look back, the Kevin Gardner, that's case to remain O'Neill's. Right.

But those guys were the more talented ones to begin with, right? And it's the, you know, my issues with the, the Angelo Collins's, the Sebastian Tell Bears, the guys who, who, you know, did go and like the rest of their life, they're left searching. It's a really hard thing. Like, the NBA is not responsible for the rest of your life. It's a hard thing. Okay. So, so you get done playing and you decide to go to law school.

what is what was where did you go to law school what was that like what was that experience like yeah so Doug it was all you know it's funny it was all happening at the same time so just a kind of recap so Wasserman was not in existence tell him and associates was the precursor right even before he was at Arne sold his company to SFX and joined David Falk I was there through all of that when I was working there as an intern for three years. So by the time, by the time I'm going in my senior year, I had actually an extra year of eligibility. I had shoulder surgery. And I did not want to play out my fifth year.

So I actually left, took nine classes of summer school to graduate quicker while my scholarship still lasted and one class in fall. So I started working for Aaron, you know, full time as I'm going to class to get ready for law school. So because every agent at Arns practice did the same thing. Bob Myers was there. Bob was at Loyola, right? Working while working for Arn to then become an agent. You know, Joel Wolf, all the age, Rob Polinka was there. He was already an attorney and in law school.

So, no, we were loaded. I mean, Warren Legerry was there. Arn tell him Bob Myers, Rob Polinka, Dadfouchet, and Neil Olshea was doing the pre-draft, pre-draft with Tim Gergeret. So you got five guys running NBA teams or owning the NBA Summer League in that office. And here I am at 19 through 21 with the firm. So I was, there was only two law schools because my plan was to be there working as an agent and going to school. There's only two law school in Southern California.

And that's Loyola, Maramont and Southwestern that have a part-time program where you could go to school at night and still work during the day that were accredited law schools, right? And this is post 9-11. So the competition in law school was thick in terms of, you know, taking your LSATs and applying and going to the schools you want. So I'm in law school. And I actually had left Arne and I was in crisis management for a big crisis management firm in L.A. called Winner and Associates. And probably about four months in in my first semester of law school, that's when Barron reached out to me and asked me to manage them. By the end of that first year in law school, we're on a trip in south in Central America

with a Reebok tour. And I'm sick as hell, Doug. Like, I felt like I was going to die. Literally, I don't even remember Santa Domingo when we were part of that tour. And I remember getting on the plane. I couldn't even see straight. He was like, I want you to be my agent. So I was 23, turning 24.

And that was the start of representing Baron. He was my first client. How were you treated in the field? Always, you know, Barron's friend, a young, you know, a number, I was, you know, everyone was respectful to my face, but Lord knows behind the scenes. And because I have no gray hairs behind me, you know, I was 23, 24, just recently graduated college not too many years prior. And I, you know, I don't want to say Baron was my client. He was more of a partner. We just, we had a partnership.

He had a, he had a blueprint, as he would call it, and I was there to execute. How did he, it felt like it was always, I know Cash Warren, he was really close. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

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How did he always seem to have this, like, plan? Like, here's a dude raised by his grandma, South Central L.A., right? But he always seemed to have a plan. You want to do movies, entertainment, not just, and now blessed as an amazing basketball player, was that you and him? Was that something he had already established?

Like, where did that come from? Barron already, he always had that. I think that's Barron's, you know, lens or perspective on the world growing up in South Central and then going to crossroads in Santa Monica. Barron is a phenomenal, one, he's a trendsetter, Doug,

but he's, I tell you, he's a phenomenal, nominal talent evaluator, you know, in terms, like, you can talk to people that he's cross pass with in business that have either worked in partnership with him or work for him. A lot of those people have moved on to, you know, executive positions in entertainment, you know, myself even, you know, running my own agency and continue to represent players, you know, cash is a serial entrepreneur. So Barron has always just been good at identifying, you know, talented young people as he's progressing his career that have moved on to, you know, if they're not working alongside him,

moved on to bigger and even greater things. So, and that's a, that's a talent in itself, I think. Yes. No, it's just like, it's no different than to be a, to be a, you know, a GM, to be a coach, to be an agent, you got to be able to evaluate talent and see, okay, in two years, this guy is going to be this with the right, you know, put in the right position. It's an amazing gift to have. Yeah. So you're representing him. Who was your second club? Trevor Arisa the following year. You know, Trevor was, he was 18 coming out of UCLA, average 12 and 7.

No one anticipated him leaving. He was going to leave. I ended up representing Trevor, getting him drafted to the Knicks. What was that like? It was great. Trevor was great. You know, Trevor and I are still friends now. It was, I tell you, man, we were fearless.

It was kind of crazy. I look back like, what the hell were we doing? Because we don't, they like, you're using, we're using common sense. Or for me, it's like trial and error, but we prep, you know, Rico Hines, who's still a best friend of mine, who's one of the best player development coaches, he put Trevor through player development for the draft process. And, you know, Trevor ends up playing extremely well in the, in the L.A. summer league at the time.

This is precursor of the Vegas. and, you know, Isaiah Thomas took him. It's a funny story I still laugh about with Isaiah. My first contract negotiation was interesting because I was completely prepped for it, but you're not prepped for Isaiah Thomas or somebody that, you know what I mean? Yeah, plus you grew up in L.A. in the 80s. Like, he was awesome, but I hate him. Yeah.

And he has this incredible, the guys that. are the stars. And you know this, like, we've been around, the guys that they have an aura to them. They just do, right? They haven't, or okay, so you sit down with them? No, no, I sat down with them. I think Isaiah was testing me. This is post-Summer League, and Isaiah asked to meet me at the four seasons in Beverly

Hills, but not at like 9 a.m. or 10 a.m., 7 a.m., because Isaiah knew I was young. So let's say, I think it was a test. Let's see if this guy shows up on time. I was there. I think probably 6.45 a.m. His mom was there with him initially. And then we sit down and talk. But the funny thing is, I always say this in negotiations too.

There's strength in numbers, right? If you and I are negotiating against each other, Doug, and it's you by yourself, and I have two other people with me, attorneys and other experienced people, their strength naturally in numbers. So in that negotiation, we started the talks in Almond. he goes back to New York, and now they have the, you know, the lead counsel for the NICS. And they have me on speakerphone negotiating, which was, I sit back and think about that conversation.

There was some curveballs thrown at me that I handled, but more, more than anything, than intimidation tactics. I think I held my own. At least Isaiah said I did. And I got a good deal for Trevor. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1-800flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination. 1-800 flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best

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Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. What is it like for Trevor? What is it like for a guy who's a client, a very young age to leave, to leave you. What's that, what's that feeling like? To leave me as a, as an agent? Yes. Like when, I mean, inevitably, people switch agents. Yeah. What is that, what is that like from your perspective? Oh, man, it was, it was like, losing your first, uh, your first, uh, your first, you know, like a girl breaking up with you in high school, right? Your first, like, it, it hurts. I was like, God, I'm not going to be able to

survive as an agent. Like, it's over. My reputation is done. Y and Z. And I had countless stories, Doug, where it's just like you figure it out. You learn from it. You pick yourself back up and you keep moving forward. But that was devastating. But in hindsight, you know, based on how green I was in certain areas, not in the negotiations or preparation, it was more just life experience in terms of guiding him. I don't fault him for making that change at the time. When you now, the profession now that you've been in for 20 years, have been super successful, whatever you own,

you own for it. Better, worse, different, in terms of recruiting players, what's the experience like? It's much better because I don't waste time. I'm much more efficient.

For me, it is because, Doug, I'm a big believer and I tell my staff this is I don't sugarcoat things. I don't, I'm not selling anything

that I don't think I could deliver on. So the clients that buy into what I'm selling, as a service are the guys I'm supposed to be representing. And look, those guys are experiencing success. I tend to evaluate talent for what I could develop them into. So, you know, you look at a Pascal Seacum, you know, Pascal wasn't supposed to be a first round or wasn't supposed to be an All-Star or a Max player, but he's those things.

You know, Thomas Bryant, second round pick, you know, waived by the Lakers and now he's the starting center. He just turned 24. I think Thomas's position to earn 20 to 25 million per year next year, if not greater, once he recovers from his age. Oh, okay. So go back. Pascal, okay? I called Pascal's tournament game at Mexico State. Yeah. His coach, you know, Marvin is like, my brother's, like, best friend in the business, okay? But if you had told me that this is how good he could be, I would be like, come on. When did you first see Pascal Seacca? I saw him in Bakersfield playing against Bakersfield.

And, you know, when I evaluate talent, it's like, is he really 6-9, 6-10? What's his body type? Can he shoot the ball? Does he have touch? You know, and I could tell those things even if he's not shooting jumpers at the free throw line. And then how good Earth's feet? What's his athleticism?

And like, what does he do well? And then the other component. And, Doug, here's the thing is you would not have thought I was crazy if you, you you're in the gym every day watching them like I am. See, you have a basketball pedigree as well. That's the big thing that people forget is I'm in the gym every day watching the development of my guys doing my calls like how you are right now. I'm doing my calls in the gym. So I'm watching the ascension of their development. So it's by the end of a summer three months, if I'm watching Pascal compete at a high level against Paul George LeBron or Chris Paul or

James Hardin and those guys, I'm starting to, you know, and here, shot away hearing them talk about Pascal, it's easy for me to know where, what direction my guy is going in terms of his development. But if you're outside looking in saying, oh, this guy is from New Mexico State or, you know, I don't know this guy or I've seen him play once. I don't know, but you're not seeing his development. Then I could see how somebody may think I'm crazy or biased to my client opposed to actually seeing where there are. What is it, you know, your role, so you get, I mean, look, one of the sales, and you tell them if I'm wrong is you have a great, strong relationship with your clients. It's a partnership. It's a friendship. It's more than just,

hey, I'm going to get you your next deal, right? Okay. So Pascal struggles in the playoffs, right? Here's a young guy. It's the highest level of the NBA is different. What's that like for you to deal with knowing what he has in him, but also knowing the reality of in play as well as he as he can. As the agent, but also the partner and the friend, what does that experience like? It's being honest. I got to be honest with him.

And it's also bringing in, you know, some other stories or examples of other players because every, all great players go through adversity. Every single one. We can't name one that didn't struggle at some point on their path to maybe being, you know, taking it up a notch to greatness. And having that level of consistency. Even, you know,

LeBron, not saying Pascal is LeBron, but, you know, LeBron's gone through it or Steph has gone through it. All the great players go through it. It's how they handle that adversity and come out on the other side. So for me having those conversations with Pascal, it's not sugar-coding it. It's like, hey, you need to get your wrestler. Let's go get some extra reps in or this is all part of the process. Like, it's okay. Let's get back to work in the off-season. So it's not, and then actually not just saying things, but back in. it up as an agent with a plan of action for them to take to get better. But it's never,

yeah, hey, it's everybody else's fault or you're the victim and X, Y, and Z. It's like, no, let's look at it from all angles, understand this business and what it is. Let's understand what your role is because Pascal's path is a is a, is a unconventional one. If we look at it from NBA All-Star standards is this wasn't a guy that's supposed to be an all-star. He came out of nowhere. him being thrust into a leadership role as an all-star Max player, that's all new to him. He's the youngest of six, right? So we understand family dynamics as well. He's learning and being more comfortable in his skin in terms of leadership role.

So it's literally coaching him through that. It's talking to the team and management, you know, in some cases even Nick Nurse about those things to bring it to his attention. And then, you know, it's a partnership with the team. Understanding his success is a team success. Pascal's success is what was my own. So for me, it's, again, I always say relationships outside looking in could be contentious. Or you could look at it as a partnership and make it make sense so that both sides benefit.

You know, whatever it is, whatever it is in terms of outcomes we want. Intern here, go to law school, you know, probably skip the step that even you want to start with Barron. you know, before you'd finish doing what you wanted to do. But if somebody wants to be you, how would you like, there's a college basketball player out there. It was like, I love this game. I love this sport. What would you, what would you recommend to them as the first step

in trying to see if they like the process of being an agent? Yeah, they, they, I would recommend a credible internship with a credible firm because we're all judged by a resume and you want to learn and pick up those good habits or see great agents at work to understand their habits or what it entails. Oftentimes I have young people that reach out to me and says, you know, have said, hey, I've interned here.

I've worked in sports and then I say where. And it may not have been a credible firm in which I know they may not have picked up great habits in terms of what it takes to be an agent. I think most people get it confused now that, hey, if I have a player, I could just go get certified and I know how to be an agent or I'm an agent all of a sudden. Like, that's, it's disrespectful to be honest with you. Like, there's an art and a, there's an art to be an agent for one, understanding the business and what it entails. And then you want to surround yourself with great people that have had success being an agent because we're fiduciaries of our clients.

you mentioned Rob who you worked with you mentioned Arne Leon Rose now running a team like is that is that the dream is that the gold

is there is there any part of you that says I love what I'm doing but man I would love to run a team and rebuild something I'm naturally a builder that's why I'm running my own company

if that opportunity presented itself I would look at it. Obviously, my clients are family for me. So it's a conversation I would have with them as well and my family. But, I mean, that could always be interesting because I don't know about you, Doug, in terms of, you know, growing up as an athlete, it's like, I love being a part of a team. Like, there's nothing better than that, you know, having colleagues or having, you know, associates or people that you're looking in the same direction,

building towards, you know, at least in sports and building towards the championship. So that aspect always intrigues me. For me, on the company side is same thing is like, you know, it's building towards our client's personal success or in some ways we're even sharing in the championships, you know, even as recent for me with Pascal or even Kavana Looney. All right. Now, here's the, here's the, you mentioned your honesty. Do you cheer for other agents to see?

succeed because like if they succeed, that means, hey, this is a good plan or do you not want agents to succeed? What's the experience like of watching other people who've done what you've done play? You know, Bob obviously has had an incredible amount of success. Rob's had success won a title. Do you cheer for those guys? Because that allows maybe that path to open up for you. You know, I wouldn't necessarily say cheer, but there's a tremendous amount of respect I have because conversations come up sometimes where people are critical of other agents and their work or even their transition. And I'll be protective of other agents or other guys because, again, a lot of people don't understand what goes into our jobs. And for an agent to have

success for an extended period of time, especially managing a high level talent, it's not easy. And people can make the assumption, oh, well, that guy was a lottery. pick already or he was a superstar. Well, you got to deliver for those guys, too. The expectations are greater as well. So I give a lot of credit to those agents or even those guys that make the transition to the front office. And I say in some ways, those guys are better prepared.

And that's not taken away from the front office execs that haven't been agents. But every day you're dealt with the set of circumstances that you, you didn't know was coming the day before, right? Because 10%, you know, if I'm looking at my business or my role, you know, 10% of it is probably contract negotiations. The other 90% are managing the client and managing the curveballs that no one's seen. If I'm doing a good job, managing the curveballs that nobody's reading about or no one else has seen, you know, and, you know, that's it. So I, in some ways, like I said, I'm not, I'm not, I, I can't say I'm outright cheering, but when I see them, I pay my respect and acknowledge the work that they're doing and want them to be successful.

I think there's a matter for everybody. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's obvious. I believe that to be true. And I also think that's why, you know, I'm sure you champion your own kind of young guys, right? There's, there's playing. You mentioned your own firm. How hard is that to start your own thing, to do your own thing? It's extremely hard, Doug.

It's extremely hard, especially for me when I went back after I left BDA in 2013, I didn't have a marquee client to, I guess he could say, to use to gain other clients. So for me, I had to change my approach to the business to identify undervalued talent that I could develop into those players that I thought that could be very successful. So, you know, when I left in 13, I had to, in 2015, I had Kavana Looney and even Norman Powell that I got drafted, followed by the next year, 16 Pascal Seaccom, picked up March and Gortata's a client, 17 Thomas Bryant, and then just kind of just continued to build on momentum. But at the time, if you look back in hindsight, like those guys weren't marquee guys.

I had a lot in their player development, not just in the pre-draft. process, but every offseason to help get them to where they're at in terms of their second contracts. Also, though, again, falling back on your relationships, right? Kevin Luny at UCLA, a place that you played. And of course, he gets drafted by Bob Myers, a guy who went to UCLA and you work with at the firm. It doesn't mean that there's anything illicit, but business is business. It's about relationships and who you know. And if you're telling Bob, Bob, it can play. Like, You know, that's different than an agent. He doesn't have a longstanding relationship with an understanding.

Is that a fair way to look at it? I think it's fair. But, you know, Bob, regardless of relationship, Bob is, you know, obviously this is in their run. And, you know, Kavana fell in the draft for medical reasons. You know, it's me saying that to Bob. But I think he's not in the moment of drafting Kavana as much as him thinking about the relationship long term because of our dynamic.

Because Bob is going to have to pick the best player for the Golden State Warriors at any given time, not because I'm the player's agent, but because that's the best talent available. So in some ways it works hand in hand, but I like to think that my relationship with any team is I'm not one to bullshit. I'm just going to tell it how it is. And I love that process because I guess through experience whether, again, Josh Primo, I could call a team when he's projected in the second round and say, guys, look, like Pascal or like a Thomas, Brian, or Kavana, where I'm telling you guys the talent that I'm seeing and you guys know what I'm going to do,

this kid is going to be a superstar. And the ones that believe, believe, and the ones that don't, you know, I remind him in the future when I have the next player. There's satisfaction or that. That's the chip on my shoulder, Doug, and maybe that's a former athlete in me. It's like, I told you so. So you don't believe me, I'll do it again. I had a, my TV and radio agent for five or six years.

My second agent was a guy named Nick Con. Nick now runs WWE, right? And he was at CIA. He was very powerful, he's brilliant guy. Yeah. And Nick used to tell me all the time. He's like, being an agent is a young man's job. It's a grinder's job.

Yeah. 50 is about, like he's like 50 is about kind of the cutoff. Okay. So you're in your early 40s. You've been really successful. What is, what are your thoughts on the next five, 10 years for you personally? It's, you know, I'm always thinking when, you know, it's continuing to help develop my current roster of clients, help groom the next generation of agents that are working with me.

because that's a big part of my, I guess my ethos in business is like, it's not just helping my clients grow, it's helping the people that are working for me or working alongside me grow. I think there's no greater satisfaction than, you know, whether within my company or, you know, helping them grow their wings to where they're an executive

somewhere else and having tremendous success. Like, I value that. But for me, next eight to 10 years is just see where the industry evolves into look at NIL being introduced. You know, I'm very big in the sports science and investments in sports science for athletes. I think with technology, that's going to impact our industry tremendously, like it has every other sector of business and finance and in other areas. So for me, it's the satisfaction I get, honestly, Doug, is not going along with the status quo of how things I've always been is like, how can I disrupt a business that people say is not scalable

from a business perspective because it's a service business, but how can I introduce new technologies in a way that we've never seen before? Because quite frankly, the business has been done the same way from agents the last 40 or 50 years, starting with McCormick and IMG, to where now, if you're, I think, wise and diligent about the technologies that you could integrate for clients in their development off the court in terms of sports science, but also in how we represent them. I think, you know, it can be interesting for the future. Because if you're not adding value to your clients now, because, Doug, we haven't even talked about, like, look at the contracts these guys are signing, right?

Steph Curry signed, I think, 207 on an extension over four years. with the new media rights deal coming in, in 24, 25 is the expiration, $75 billion. The current deal is $24 billion. And if we go back to when that influx of money came in, we saw the level of contracts how that was impacted, right? $75 billion, three times more, I did some projections. Rookie, like Josh Primo could be eligible to sign probably an extension as a 21-year-old between $250 and $325 million,

that pays on a max or super max player, right? So for me, it's also looking into the future forecasting because now you're talking about athletes having their own family office and raise their level of sophistication to a whole different level. Forget off the court earnings, just their on court earnings. So for me, it's also, you know,

how do you, I'm not waiting until that, happens, it's what mechanisms or what services can I put in place now to make sure that I can address all the needs of my clients in the future when they are earning that level of income. Todd, you've been so gracious with your time, dude. It's really, really amazing. It's been fun, Doug. It's been good.

I really appreciate it. Let's do it in person. And I'm a fan of Primo. So I can't wait to see what he does this year in San Antonio in future years. And thanks again for joining us in a lot. No, I appreciate it, Doug. And look forward to the next time. Pretty amazing stuff, right?

I mean, just the ability at 19 years old to go like, hey, let me pivot and think about becoming an agent. And then using the connections that you have established at UCLA to build really a business. And then breaking out and building the business on your own, all those challenges all right in here. I thought you'd love that. And that's the type of guy who you will see, whether. you talk about being a super agent or you talk about evolving into a guy running a team.

He has such a wherewithal and is so respected in the sport. I thought he'd just be a good listen. He was. I'm fascinating. I want to grab him back and talk for another hour about other hoop guys that he's discovered. In the meantime, remember, the Doug Gottlieb show is daily, 3 to 6th Eastern, 123 Pacific. Iheart Radio, Fox Sports Radio app, Iheart Radio, etc., etc. Wherever you listen to Fox Sports Radio, where you can also download that as a podcast.

In the meantime, if you have questions, comments, at Gottlieb show, Twitter, or Instagram, the best way to get a hold of me. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is AllBall. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more.

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