The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Oral Roberts HC Paul Mills on Helping Rebuild Baylor, Recruiting, Cinderella Sweet 16 Run

Episode Date: March 24, 2021

In this episode, Doug talks with Oral Roberts Head Coach Paul Mills discusses growing up in Houston as the son of a preacher, how he helped rebuild Baylor after a scandal as an assistant under Baylor's Scott Drew for 14 years, taking over at Oral Roberts and his teams incredible Sweet 16 run as a 15 seed, including taking down Ohio State and Florida. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

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Amazon is a proud, equal opportunity employer. Welcome in, Doug Gottlieb here, and you are listening to All Ball, All Basketball, all the time. I want to do one on some of the NCAA tournament stuff, but right now I just, this pot is so good and so timely. I have a couple other ones, John Gallagher. is going to join me on a different pod. John, of course, the head coach of Hartford, he's, Irish John is hysterical. He's hysterical, but he's also insightful.

So we'll drop that one maybe a little bit tomorrow. This one, I wanted to make sure we got it out to you because, I don't know, I think this is a pretty darn good basketball team and story. And I thought we could just start here. Paul Mills is the head coach at Orwell Roberts. By now, you've come around to liking Oro Roberts, watching Oro Roberts. But he comes from incredibly humble beginnings in Houston, Texas. Out of a Humboldt, Texas, right?

And I think you'll enjoy hearing his journey, his energy, his thoughts on what this is all like. And, of course, he'll preview a little bit of their rematch with Arkansas team that they played, led by 12 in the second half earlier this year in Fayetteville and ultimately lost to. So without further ado, he's the head coach of Orrador. Royal Roberts University, got the job in 2017, and slowly but surely they have started from the bottom now they're here. Let's catch up with Paul Mills of Royal Roberts. In living, breathing form, Cinderella himself. Cinderella himself. Paul, how are you? I'm great. I'm great. You just live in life inside the controlled environment.

We were off yesterday. Yesterday was Monday. And so, so you don't. panic because you don't play again until Saturday night, but so far, so good. All right. I want to, I want you to help me tell your story, okay? We've known and Chuck for a long time, and it's obviously an incredible weekend for your guys, Baylor basketball family, right? And for Oro Roberts and that university. But you personally, growing up, what was your first memories of basketball, like your

first attachment to the sport? Yeah, you know, in America, basketball is kind of the sport of the poor in European, African countries at soccer. But, I mean, we couldn't afford a baseball glove or a bat. My father was a preacher. And so we didn't have much money. Couldn't afford helmets and cleats and shoulder pads. But you could go down to the end of the street with a ball with 20 other kids and you could play. And that was always fun.

I mean, five, six, seven. So is in Houston or where? This is in Houston, yeah. And so I can remember six, seven, eight. My dad put up a basketball goal in the backyard. And so right around the age 10, 11, 12, I mean, Houston was like on fire. We had five slamma jam up. So those teams were going in the final four.

My birthday is on April the fourth. So my birthday parties were Faislamma, JAMA playing in C. State. And Wittenberg, oh, it's a long way. Oh, he got it at the buzzer. And I can remember going in my backyard and just crying and shooting until 1 o'clock in the morning. Because, and then you had the Michael Jordan era, right? And then I had friends who love magic. I had friends who liked Larry.

But I like Mike. And so it was just an awesome time for me, basketball. wise, where I grew up, you fell in love with the final four in college. And I mean, Keith Smart making big shots and never nervous purpose. And you just saw this emergence on this national stage. And it fit because the environment where we lived, people were obsessed with basketball. On occasion, you'd play football in the streets because that only required one ball. But for the most part, we all play basketball.

And then you began to get competitive. You would have all the arguments for why Michael was better in Larry or why Michael was better than magic. But you wanted to be, hey, all right, whatever. Let's go out and hoop ourselves. You wanted to be good when these people called you out. So it was a 24-7 experience for me. So your dad, what was the church that he preached at when you were kids? Northbelt Christian.

okay where is where in houston is that well all all dean area is a little north of houston so my dad's church was about five miles north of that in uh what's referred to as humble texas okay so it's a humble so um which i can just i hear like i can keep jack now saying is that a humboldt texas yeah yeah yeah that a humble so um you mentioned like you didn't grow up wealthy i do think that some people think well, Southern Baptist preacher, you know, he's living high on the hog. He's got a, he's got a megachurch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a megachurch. That was not how it was for you. I think most pastors probably preach at churches that are under a hundred, the vast majority,

especially in the South. As you know, there's a church as more churches than there are gas stations. And, I mean, there's one on every corner. And so, so, so, I mean, you, were mad for me. I mean, I had to be there three times a week, Wednesday night, Sunday morning, Sunday night. God forbid, there was some prayer service or youth service. Then you're there four times, but you're definitely there three. And you're mad because you realize other kids are actually practicing on Wednesday night and you're not. You're mad because other kids are watching, they're playing Saturday night and you're not. And so church, I love my, my, my, parents, obviously, and I'm so grateful for how my parents invested in me. But when you're young,

you don't really have that sense. All you want to do is play. And so to sit in two-hour church services, three different times each week. Was he good? He had good moments. You know, when you preach as long as you, they're not all going to be good. It's like, it's like, it's got to be like radio show. Yeah, yeah. Like a radio shows, you do 220, 230 a year. Yeah. Like, you got to be really, really, you got to be great, like, 7,500 times a year. You got to be good about 50 more times.

And then you just got to like, hey, figure out how to fill time because just it's not possible. That's a great analogy. Was he okay with feedback? Did he ever go like, I was that? No, I mean, the reality is, so you'd sit on the back. row with all of your friends, right? And so if I did something wrong, he would stop during the sermon say, excuse me. Paul, would you come up here to the front row and sit by your mother? And so I would have to get up in the middle of church with your head down like a little puppy dog.

And he had warned me, hey, son, I'm just telling you, you continue to sit back there. Because you're, you know, you're, I'm throwing that, I had a friend who sat next to me at church who was the biggest LA Lakers Magic Johnson. Who's that? His name was Jeremy Gill. And we would sit there and argue. Like, and we would want to fight by the time they said amen at the end, we would want to fight over the fact that you thought the Lakers and magic were better than Michael and the bulls.

And so it was, and then you, then we would run. the church had a gym and we would go straight to the gym and you would play until my dad would stay for two or three hours after the service and so sit there and play you're so but you did your dad play no not at all so did he does did he understand your your love for the sport yes I mean uh when I was a sophomore in high school um I was that you may remember this name Doug there was a The guy who led the city of Houston in scoring named LaBradford Smith. LaBradford went to. I played with the Bradford.

Wow, did you really? Play with the U.S. So LaBradford was out of Bay City. You know who had the second most points in the city of Houston? Me. And LaBradford was a mission. How small school is this? I see, why does everybody have to ask that?

I'm not telling you we played at the same level. I'm just telling you that. You're getting buckets and you're playing the issue. So when the stats get published, it says LaBradford-Smith and Paul Mills. I'm not telling you that we're going against the same people. But you know what? I'll tell you this. I shot it every single time I had the ball.

And I made less than half. So this was at Greenwood Village. And so at Greenwood Village, literally there's 100 kids in the high school. So 50 boys, 50 girls. maybe 12 of them tried to play basketball and 10 of them couldn't walk and chew gum. So it was literally me and one other person. And since I was the point guard, I got to decide everything, you know? And so and then what I thought is your special and I transferred to a 5A,

which is the highest division in Texas, a 5A public school. And so, and then needless to say, my stats were not the same ever. So what high school did you transfer to? MacArthur High School, Aldean McOther. So when you tell your dad like, hey, dad, I want to go to a bigger high school for basketball. What do you say? You know why? And so I just pull out the Houston Chronicle and I'm like, look, I mean, you can read.

You see there's LaBradford Smith. And then the next year it was Elmer Bennett, who went to Notre Dame. Notre Dame, from Bel Air High School. And it's like, Dad, look, I mean, it's clear as day that I belong on a bigger state. And I didn't. I loved it. I'm telling you I would not be as passionate and love basketball had I not done it. Because I walked into a situation where I was the only white kid who played there,

I believe in a 27-year history. And so the entire school, especially on the basketball side, is black. And so for me to walk into that environment, and that was the neighborhood I grew up. up in anyway. And so it wasn't any different. But it was such a, I can't, I can't imagine not having the experience of doing that. I've had those several of my high school teammates reach out to me. And I can't ever imagine myself being able to go down the path that I've gone without that experience. No question. Of socioeconomic, different diversity, listening to all these stories hanging out at their houses, them coming to yours.

Those things just made all the difference in the world. And it fueled something in me because you just realized how good you had to get. It's interesting. So we always had an AU team from kids from kind of all over. And we always had kids from South Central. And my dad would, we'd have practice and get done. He'd drive kids home because their parents work, you know, and then come back and I'd ride with him.

Like that was most of my childhood outside of playing sports was driving to and from sports with my dad. But I remember. So he used to tell me he grew up in New York. He'd always tell me like, hey, my favorite moments in basketball is, you know, you walk into a gym and you're the only white guy. And people, if you just, you know, are respectful people and play hard and just come into hoop, like you'll be amazed at how kind people are to you because. there's still this kind of divide. I will say it's a little bit harder in Southern California because things are more homogenous.

But two things jump out of my mind when you tell the story about you in high school. So when I was in eighth grade, I stayed back in eighth grade. I was little. I was a late bloomer. Yeah. But my team, all my teammates from A.U went on to high school. So they're all playing. Most of them played varsity.

Some played JV. Whatever. And so I didn't have a team to play with. So there was a guy named Sam Minor who ran, I think it was called Team L.A. at the time. And there's another guy named Tiny who ran Caney Bowls. And so for that year, I spent most of my afternoons like at Mr. Miner's house or practicing with his teams. Yeah. And it was the exact same thing where, and it was awesome.

It was awesome. It's like cultural immersion. And then you figure out, you know, it's actually one of the things because, I mean, obviously you see somebody's race being different. and I don't know if you've experienced this, but because you don't have a, there's no racial bone and anti, like racial bone in your body. Yeah. I just, I've always had a tough time understanding any of this idea that you don't like somebody because they're black or you're not.

I just, it's really, my, my brain. Honestly, it's like a, it's like a gap in my brain where I don't understand. Like I said, 100%. Because, I mean, that's a great word, cultural immersion, right? I've never understood the Jewish side. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the iHeart. radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't.

realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses Steve Burns Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that that's two different levels of trust I want you to just really be a good person Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs?

Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at a podcast. I'm Sam Jett. Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day,

but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Never understood anti-Semitism, right? It's like they look the same as everybody else. We all look alike, you know? And then, obviously, when you deal with different. skin colors and you're dealing with Hispanic and you're dealing with African American, they just want to accept you for who you are and know that you're about the right things. And that was what, and I wanted to so earn their respect.

And so you would, I was the guy who was diving all over the floor for loose balls. I was a guy that was, I'm going to guard that guy. And so you just, the cultural immersion is such a great, it's such a great, It's such a great word because you wanted to immerse yourself to gain credibility. And that was what you did. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox SportsRadio.com. And within the IHard Radio app, search FSR to listen live.

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Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. The other part that you pointed out, which is really smart, which is like at the end of the day, people, most people, you're going to judge you as a person. and and they figure out that there's there's good white people, there's bad white people, there's good black people, there's bad black people, right? There's people who are about the right things and people that are not.

And people can spot a phony eventually. Especially, I've always said, especially, you were recruited obviously at a really high level. When you've been around it and you can spot this stuff, I mean, quick. I tell people all the time, I don't bat a thousand, but I bat nine, nine, Because you know what?

When I was 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, you were around it. And you can tell the people that they just want to be around us, but they're not serious about hooping. Or they just want to be around us because they want to be in the group, but they're not really sincere people. I think guys like you even have even a better antenna, because y'all went through the experience of the recruiting, and then you see it for what it is.

And you see it on the other hand. you see it. I think I think kids can spot a pony in terms of guys that are recruiting them as well. 100%. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So why did you, why'd you go to A&M? So I went to a division two school, had the opportunity and obviously wanted to play. Diving for a loose ball one day. I cracked the bottom vertebrae on my spine. And what program is this? Southern Nazarene University. In Oklahoma City. In Oklahoma City. And we have.

actually there were in that conference, the sooner athletic. O.R.U was in that conference at the time. And there was actually two NBA picks out of there. Greg Sutton from O.R.U went to the Spurs. And then a transfer from Georgetown named Turner from Phillips University with 17 picked of the Rockets. So you saw good basketball. And what happened was, was I got injured.

One day at practice, cracked the bottom vertebra in my spine, saw, you know, all these specialists, do all these things. Long story short, they said, your basketball career. is over. I can remember being in the doctor's office and the tears just flowing. And so now, you know this, Doug, there's nothing worse than being a manager when you've been a player. The whole idea that you're going to rebound and get guys water. And that's what people did for me. I'm not going to do it for them because you thought of where you put people was based on how well they hooped. Well, managers can't hoop. So I was like, I'm just going to

travel with the team, I'm going to go around, but I'm not going to be a manager. And so I realized, like, listen, when you're young, you're arrogant. I said, if I can't play basketball, as these doctors have said, I'm going to transfer closer to home. So I went closer to home. And I would hang out at that time. It was G. Raleigh-White-Colson. And Tony Broni was a head coach. Porter Moser was an assistant. And I would kind of walk through the on course and you'd breathe it in and you'd watch some practices here and there. It was hard. But Joe Wilbert, do you know that name at all from Texas A&M?

But Joe was an all-conference, Southwest Conference player and he's a friend. But you began to get close to, you know, knowledgeable and close to some of the basketball players, but you're just so eat up that you can't participate. Because nobody ever gets in this thing to coach. You get into it to play. playing is what's fun. Coaching is rewarding. But then it was like, man, you know what?

Can I help people? I'm this little bitty white kid. And I wonder if I can just help people with the game of basketball. And so that kind of started a path for me because I just wanted to be around the game so much. So how did you, okay. So how'd you get in? So my dad, did you help it in or did you start the high school job first? No, yeah. So my dad had a church. And so in the summers, I would say, hey, who wants to play basketball? So what you get was 30, 40, 50 neighborhood kids show up and you're playing for three or four hours. Well, then you start to hear their stories, right? And these are kids. And then you recognize the ones who are good and you want to help those guys. And so you'd schedule individual sessions. And then the kids who didn't have school clothes or shoes, you know, you had a soft heart for those guys and you were helping them.

And I just realized that basketball was a carrot that attracted these young men, even though we're in different demographic socioeconomic situations that would allow me to help you. And I just became enamored with it of trying to help guys. And so there at the church, we had some high school kids and at Northbelt Christian. And we would run around and play other high schools. play various schools throughout the city of Houston. So after three years of doing that, I said, man, I don't want to do this kind of on a part-time basis. I want to do this all the time, like 100% of the time all year

and took another high school job across town at Fort Ben Baptist. And I taught calculus and pre-calculus and got to coach. And, you know, this one was official, right? Because this one has a state championship associated with it, rather than just running around and playing games, more like an AAU event. So did that for three years, loved it. I would tell you that they ran me out of there after a Final Four experience. They just thought that basketball, in my mind, was becoming too big.

They were starting football and never overrun football in the state of Texas. And so I was like, you know what? I'm four-time district coach of the year, right? Big deal, huh? And we just went off the Final Four. I'm like the Phil Jackson of high school coaches. And people will hire me. And so here it is.

So I just resigned. How old are you that then? Man, how old am I? 27. And so resign. And, you know, there goes June, July, August, September. And nobody's hired me. I did have a job offer at Northern Arizona.

Mike Adress was great. And I didn't want to move. I wanted to stay in Houston. Bob Hoffman at UT Pan Am. had brought me in and I thought I was going to go there. Then I thought I was going to go with Ray McCallum to Houston, but long story short, here it is October and I have nothing. And I'm just,

I'm just depressed, right? Because you really think that you know something. And what you don't realize is you really don't know much. And Willis Wilson at Rice University heard about it. And he called me. And he said, Paul, I'll give you $2,000 for the year to come over here and help us. And I said, let me ask you something. Can I sit on the bench?

He said, you'll go with us to all the games and you'll sit on the bench. I said, done deal. So I can remember the first game, like, Rogue Game being at Stanford and that's fine. And I thought it was the most incredible thing in the world that all this stuff you ever watched on TV, you were sitting there watching it up close. And what was the big kids name? He had short arms. He played a little in the NBA for the Rockets. Brock Gillespie.

No, Brock. Mike Harris played for Houston. Mike Harris. Michael Harris. Yes, Michael Harris. He was a 6-6 undersized dunking for a play for the Utah Jazz. So you're with Michael every day, right? And you're with, we had another player, Jason McReeth, who got some NBA looks. So we had several guys. We were good. And you're traveling and you're in, you're in the West. You had the gym or they played badminton. Yes, right behind it. 100%. People don't rice before they redid the arena, okay, they used to have at one of

there was a big curtain. A curtain. We did it. Dave Rebson and I did a game there once. And he's like, and we're coming up next. We'll see what's behind that curtain, right? Yes. They're playing bad.

They're playing bad. While a college basketball game was going on. 100%. And, and but you know, Hawaii is in the conference. So you're traveling to Hawaii. Boise State was good. Tulsa was really good at that time. And so I just became enamored with it.

Man, how do we get rice? So, so Willis Wilson, who, he was, he was like the first guy. He, Wilson was the first guy to, that we did a game and he lost the game, but he came over to shake everybody's hands, but he wasn't feeling that well. He's like, you know, I'm not feeling that well. Let me give you an elbow. This is like 2004, 2005. Wow. And I was just, and Rebson and I, I remember we, we sat there and we said like, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that.

the classiest thing. No college basketball coach does that, right? Everybody else daps it. Anyway, what did you learn from him? What was he like to coach, to watch coach? What did he do? One, he was phenomenal in his player relationships. And I think so many coaches will talk to a team, right? They'll get everybody down. They'll talk to the team. But how many coaches actually kind of put their arm around guys and say, I need you to hang out with me 20 minutes? after practice. Is life good, everything all right? I thought he was brilliant.

I mean, what I realize is just one, how lucky you are just to be in this profession, especially when you're like a little man's syndrome guy like me. And so you're just so fortunate. And when you look at Willis's teams in the years that he's been healthy, they win and they do a phenomenal job. But I feel bad that Coach W. hasn't had an opportunity to experience an NCAA tournament. And so when you get this opportunity,

you want to honor it because of the people that have invested in you. And Willis was as good as it gets in regards to helping guys and their personal relationships. A phenomenal and just a class act. And he would want, he is somebody you want your, you to be invest. You want him investing in you because he's pouring into you the right things.

Okay. So you do that for a year. Where were you when the Baylor thing went down? I was in Houston. That is the craziest thing you'd ever heard of. Man, one player, killing another player. This is nuts. And so when I was a high school coach, I'd brought in, I would hold a clinic

every year and brought in, you know, Coach Majeris I would hang out with in the summer. I would go to Utah and learn Michael White and I from Florida. My room was here. Michaels was across. I remember one summer as we spent time because I just thought Coach Majeris was the best teacher in the world. But when I was a high school coach, I'd travel around. I'd go to Duke. I'd go to North Carolina. I'd go to Utah. I'd spend every penny I had trying to get around who I thought were really good coaches. And those guys are obviously. And so going through it, I thought it was just crazy when the whole Baylor thing went down. And there was news because we had had a good year at Rice that Willis was going to take the, take the job at Baylor. And I remember him talking about would Joe want to go into an

environment like that? And I remember thinking like, no way. Like I'm not going to Waco, Texas. I'm a Houstonian. I am staying here. I will. beg my way on to the next guy who takes over for you, Coach W. But why in the world would you walk yourself into that situation? Okay. So Scott gets the job. Yeah. Scott gets the job.

Uh-huh. How did you have a relationship with Scott? Like how'd that happen? No. So John Lucas and John Lucas the third, obviously his son is a point guard at, at Baylor. And so John Lucas worked out at 6 a.m. every morning in the Rice gym, in our auxiliary gym. He had NBA players in there.

I can remember Josh Howard. I can remember Dwight Howard. I can remember multiple high school kids who are elite being in there, Yao Ming. So I was always hanging around John Lucas in the mornings at 5.30 and then go do my job at 9. And John was like, would you like to go to Baylor? I was like, no. And I'm like, John, your son. isn't even going to stay there. And he said, that's right. He's going to go to somewhere else,

you know, eventually Oklahoma State. And so I think people had told him, if you want to be familiar with Texas, you need to talk to this guy, Paul Mills. A long story short, Scott calls me and end up visiting with him for about an hour. And I just said, man, this guy is a scatterbrain. He has no chance in the world at Baylor University. Like he's way in over his head. And he said, would you consider up coming up here? I remember, here's a question. He said, how much do you make? And I said, around 20,000.

You know, my definition is like Bill Clinton, depends what your definition of is is. So my definition of around is like plus or minus 18 grand. Yeah. And so I said around 20, he said, I can pay you a little bit more. And I said, okay. He said, would you consider coming up here? And I said, no, I won't.

I said, I've already been promised an assistant spot if anybody leaves here. I'm from Houston. I'm not walking into that situation. He said, well, let me tell you something. I heard faith was important to you. Wouldn't you at least pray about it? I said, you know what? I'll pray about it, but I'm about 99% certain God will say no, too.

And so long story short, he and I just continue to talk. And he can we beat Texas? Can we beat A&M? How do you get recruits in the state of Texas? Who are the people you need to know? Da, da, da, da. So we do this Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday for an hour every night. And I said, listen, man, you've been so kind.

I said, I'll come see you on Saturday. He was just come up here and visit and just hang out. Let me get to know you. So I go up there, my wife and I, and Willis tries to talk me out of it. He's like, I don't think that's smart, but you do what you want. And they have a guy named CJ Miles on campus. And now he's only had the job for a week. And I'm like, he just, he's got CJ Miles.

C.J. Miles is the best player in this state of Texas. Like, how did you get C.J. Miles on campus? And C.J. eventually goes high school to NBA. and I don't even know if he's still playing, but he's been playing for a long time. And I was like, that's incredible. And then at the same time, you just realize, like, man, this is a different level of basketball.

This is the Big 12. And this is a different caliber. And so I just became enamored with that. And eventually said, you know what? I'll come up here and helps. I was in an operations role. and the people that were there. I was in my 20.

Scott was 32 when he took the job. You couldn't tell us anything, right? Like we were winning the conference. And I think if somebody older had taken that job, 50, 55, 60 who had been around the block, they would have understood how hard that was. We didn't know anything. So we worked till 3 in the morning,

and we were all back in there by 8. And it was that way seven days a week for three straight years. and we were burning that candle. And I remember our second year, we were running around going, we're conference champs. Oklahoma State had just gone to the final four with John Lucas.

And you got to remember Lawrence Roberts, SEC. He was the SEC player of the year. Kenny Taylor went to Texas, started. John Lucas, Oklahoma State, Big 12 player of the year. And you just was like, man, if you can keep kids in Texas

and there's really good players here. And so, That year, we were running around second year and said, we're going to win conference. We won one game. We went one in 16 in conference. And then you, that was the one. Who was the one? If you lost to us in our first year, we won four games, you were fired.

All those guys lost their jobs. The year, the second year, when we beat Colorado, I think, unfortunately, Coach Patton wasn't able to keep his job. So we were like, you don't lose to Baylor. And so what you realized after that second year, like reality hit, you're going up against Hall of Famer Eddie Sutton. You're going up against Hall of Famer Bob Knight. You're going up against Hall of Famer Bill Self. In my mind, Hall of Famer Rick Barnes.

You had NBA coaches at Iowa State. Long Kruger, let me tell you something, is really, really good. And so you realize Bob Huggins was at K State, and you just like, oh, my goodness. And we realize like this, one, you better go get players, but two, we better figure out what the heck we're doing. So let's start with the getting players. How do you get guys? So the first big class for us, you'll remember, is we got them all our first year. Now, Curtis Gerald was out of Austin.

He committed at the end of our first year. Henry Dugat was from Coach Tang, Jerome Tang's city where he grew up. And his in-laws actually lived across the street. So Jerome was never in the office. He was always at his in-law's house, waving every time like Henry picked up the mail. Henry Dugat was really good. We got a player from Senegal named Mark. I'm going to do D.N.

And then we got a player out of Dallas named Kevin Rogers. And so those four came in for our year three. And we basically- What was the little point guard from New Orleans? Tweedy Carter. Yeah, he came in that next year. And so we added those four. Then we added a guy, Tweedy Carter, Josh Lomers.

And then we added Lacedarius Dunn. Then we added Quincy AC. So like a Lacedarius Dunn. Like he was really, really. He and Tweedy were the two highest, biggest name recruits, right? Yeah. Yeah. What's the, how do you just give me the, give me the Lacedarius Dunn?

How is that relationship formed? How'd you go through it? How'd you get it? So Lacedarius Dunn is from Monroe, Louisiana. If you have ever been to Monroe, Louisiana, where he lived, it was. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

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Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just. because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was as tough a place that I'd ever been to. I mean, the shoes are over the telephone lines, electricity lines. I mean, it's a same. So you first saw him what? Yeah, saw him. Mark Morfield. Mark Morfield saw him, loved him at an AAU event. Now, he's very much a homebody. And he played in

one more AAU event against the, who's the player for the Houston Rockets who went to Indiana, plays for the rockets right now. The shooter. Oh, Eric Gordon. Eric Gordon. He played against Eric Gordon and killed. All right. And all of a sudden, he's top 20 in the country. Well, you know what he says? I don't want to do any more of these AAU tournaments. I'm sick of them.

So his AAU coach is like Eldon Pipes, the phenomenal man, says, you need to like visit some places. So he takes him to Ole Miss because that's close to Louisiana. And he doesn't like it because the locker room is dirty. He was like, I can't believe these people, just leave their clothes out like this. And so he only plays in local events, doesn't travel anymore. He just, he doesn't like it. And so one day, Coach Pipes is driving him home and we had been begging for a visit.

And he says, look, Baylor is only four and a half hours away. I'm just, he's asleep. I'm just, we're just driving to Baylor. No way. So we got honest to goodness. And so apparently, when you listen to Laced Darius, tell the story. Lace hit me the other day. He's, he's my most, he's the most talented kid I ever coached in my life. And I've been fortunate to coach 13 NBA guys, but that guy was the most talented.

He, he said, he says, I woke up in Dallas and I was like, what the heck? Like, where are we? I thought I was going on. I didn't realize I fell asleep. So he says, listen, we're just going by here at Baylor. He said he didn't even realize how long he'd been asleep. And so he comes in and he sees our locker room and it's clean. And he says, I'm going here. That's how it happened. He committed. He was done.

He never played in another AAU event. He was finished. And that is honestly how he committed to Baylor is we had a cleaner locker room in Ole Miss. Well, Ole Miss is all places is a dump. But I think this is before you got the basketball facility though, right? This is before they added on with the practice.

Yeah, this was, yeah, this was before. The cleaner locker room. See, cleanliness next to God. Man. And let me tell you something. At Rice, apparently Drew Breeze was going to go to Rice before he went to Purdue. And they said they showed up one day and they took him through an entrance that was normally clean and said he walked through there and said he saw something.

And it was just like, man, that's not the same presentation that I got originally. So apparently that was why he went from Austin, Texas to Purdue. And I've learned from the laced area is done and the Drew Breeze, when I hear the Rice football staff tell it. We clean like crazy before recruits show up. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets

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So now you got guys going. And if we remember back then, Scott became like a, he was a big zone guy, right? Yeah. It was we're going to be the zone team. Nobody else plays zone to sleep. We're going to be the zone team. Yeah. Whose idea was that?

Was that yours? Was that his? No. When he was at Valpo, he was always impressed with Stu Morrill. Utah State. And he loves Stu Morrill and what they did defensively. And obviously, Stu Morrill is an offensive genius. But what they did defensively, he said, really gave him problems. So what our problem is like a one three one side. It's more of a one-one-three. And basically, you're moving up the wings based on, are you a shooter or are you not?

If you're a shooter, you're higher. If you're not, you're lower. And so, I mean, It looks like a one-three-one at times, depending upon who you have out on the court. And so what happened with us was we had six foot nine three men. Anthony Jones, Quincy Miller, had these guys. And other teams, three men were six, four, six, five, six, six. And they couldn't keep up. And so we just said, man, let's just utilize our length. And at the end of the day, let's push up and let's push guys to Epe Udo.

He can block shots better than him. anybody. Let's push up and invite them to go to Isaiah Austin. Let's push up and make guys go to Corey Jefferson. And so all it was, we had six foot nine, three men who they struggled to stay in front of the ball on smaller guys. So let's utilize something that kind of pushes the three point line and makes them go meet people at the rim where we think we have really good rim protectors. And so that was really the logic behind all of it. What was it like to go from when you first got there and you had to get kids to just come play on campus like as walk-ons? Yeah. To then you're in the elite eight and you're basically one.

A charge call. A charge call from beating Duke. Yeah. It was a bad call. A charge call from beating Duke. Yeah. To go to the final four. But like it is. How is Scott with perspective with the, because I know it still burns in him. In his mind this whole week, he's going to be thinking about the Duke games, right? Yeah. The elite eights because he's that kind of competitor. But in your experience with him, how is he with the perspective of where you guys were to how close you're getting to win the whole thing? Yeah, one, I tell you, Scott is very impatient.

And what I think maybe would have happened in seven years, eight years. he was just no is not an answer i can just tell you that right now uh you better figure it out um if you're asked to do something i can't no it's not you that's not a don't even go there i i learned that one quick but he was he's impatient and it was a good thing and everybody's like oh scott drew is such an optimist and i'm like y'all should be behind closed doors and he never he never once said a bad thing. I've never heard him utter a curse word. And behind closed doors, he would always be like, guys, we better get better. As coaches, we better get better. And as we better go get better players. And he says, we're not very good. So he would always come in after every loss and there were a bunch of

them, those first three years. And he's just constantly challenging you. Like, we're just not very good. And his first response was, I need to do better. And so you're over there like, oh, you're okay, you're going to call me out. I can't believe. And then he'd go in front of the media and be like, you know, we're headed in the right direction, guys. And I'm like, you just told us how awful we were as a staff. What did he get?

You watched him, though. How did he get better? Because he's a better coach. You're a better coach. He became attracted to, I'd tell you guys who invested in him. One is dad, obviously. Thad Mata. I can't tell you how many times we'd come in and say,

well, Thad Mata does this. And I'd be like, Thad Mata's not in Waco, Texas, coach. Or my dad suggested this. And then you'd be upset. You're like, well, Coach Drew isn't around here every day. And so I think what he did was he became super interested. Hey, we struggle not taking care of the ball.

who does a great job taking care of the ball and you know scott he's going to ask 900 million questions and and he's going through all these questions and you know and he's just going to pick your brain pick your brain and he's going to be very deliberate about it and think through it and what you don't realize is that he is over there taking and and and you're giving and and that's he was such a learner and he realized he's really is really from my experience an interesting you know i mean he i don't remember one time he paid me to come down and speak yes but he but but but it was we played low goals you were really good on on dunk ball so you got you call low goals i we called it we called it low goals um because we moved the goal to nine feet right no no i did it was it was awesome you were

killing you were killing i'm one of the great dunk but one of the great i'm the great i'm the It is Jewish done. You are, I'm telling you, you're obviously the best nine foot goal hooper we ever had come through. That was the problem. That was the problem of shooting was the height. The hoop was the wrong height. But no, he's a fascinating guy because, you know, he would text me. He doesn't do it as much anymore.

But he would text me all the time. Like, do you watch our game? Yeah. Give me three things you saw. One night. Tell me how I can be better. I was like, around your team every day. He's like, you know, I respect you.

You know, I respect you. Tell me what you think. And so I'd send him stuff. And sometimes I was like, you know, like, listen, you may not like this. No, no, no, give me more. I was like, well, I, like, you didn't run anything at this point in time. You didn't know they were going to switch people. Okay, so how did the ORU thing happen?

Yeah. And so after, you know, 2017 was a good year for us at Baylor. We were number one in the country. Ended up going to the Sweet 16, lost to a final four South Carolina team. and, you know, when the O-R-U thing happened, it was late. It was late, yeah. Two weeks after, I mean, the national championship had been played. And so, I mean, we were, I mean, well down the road, I mean, you know, as an assistant,

I mean, there may be some opportunities out there, but you kind of know once a week or two after the national championship, that stuff's over. Those dominoes have quit falling. And so when the OR you thing happened, it was a little surprising. And I had a number of people reach out and say, listen, Paul, it's a Christian school in the South. That's what you're currently at. You would do a great job there. And so, but you know what?

Also knew Jerome Tang would do a great job there. There was another guy who, hey, there's a Christian school in the South. He would do another job. And he had just interviewed. I believe at New Mexico State when they had when that guy, when the coach went to UNLV. Marvin Menzzi. Yeah. Who is the other guy?

Marvin Menzies. No, no. Who is the other guy who interviewed at ORU that interviewed in Mexico State? I honestly forget. Okay. And so we didn't want to like hurt each other. And I said, Jerome, I'll pull out if you, this is something. And we called their administration.

said, y'all don't need two people who kind of come from the same tree because we're both been there for 14 years. We're both going to recruit Texas. We're both from Houston. We're very similar. But Jerome went in and he had a certain dollar number and personnel requirements. Well, I'm a much cheaper date. You braced himself out. And so I just, I mean, they said, hey, this is what we pay. and it's we were all going to going to take a pay cut regardless of who took the job and I said you know what I'm interested and and fortunately things went well and you take the job I think it was May 1st you're two weeks after the signing period obviously and I you know you had to nobody helped me more on that than Scott Sutton.

He was phenomenal. He said, Paul, I've invested so much of my life there. And however, I can help you. And some people there, we didn't see eye to eye. And because we didn't see eye to eye, it is what it is. This happens in this profession. But I want you to know I'm invested in however I can help. And I can't thank Scott enough for the class.

It's amazing. It's amazing. For how he handled that situation, there was no bitterness. and he and Sean really from the ground up said, listen, here's our take, do what you want, but let me give you advice as you kind of walk through it. So my first year, I didn't, you take the job two weeks after the signing period.

So I'm not, at the end of year one, no matter how good or bad I am, they're not going to fire me. They'll give me more than one year, and we weren't very good. but I made a decision that I'm saving nine scholarships. I'm not adding anybody. It's May 1st.

It's well past the signing period. And so I just said this first year is a wash and enjoy it. What did what did you learn? Look, you've been a head coach before, but at a high school level. Now you've been at this much higher level, but you hadn't moved that. That's a big 18 inch move, right? Yeah. What did you learn about yourself in terms of how you wanted to play, how you want to coach?

because you're different now than the last time you're at coach. Yeah, well, I'll tell you this, we were one in seven. And I thought to myself, like, I don't know. Like, I may have made a bad decision here. Sure. I mean, I had a way easier situation than what I had at Baylor. And then what you realize is, you know, you get those thoughts like, man, maybe I'm not cut out for this.

This is way different than what I anticipated. And now at the end, you're used to be in the Power 5 playing to these schools. Now you're on the other end. Like we play Oklahoma State and we lose by 42. And Bill Self-Texed me after the game. And he says, Paul, I only lost by 41 the first time I played him. I remember he got the job. He got the job of Kansas.

And, you know, Bill, he's the best. He goes, he tells the media, he's like, you all know, I lost 21 a row at Earl Roberts my first year. You guys didn't know what that was in the press release? Yeah. Yeah. And so it was little things like that because I remember like 42. Guys, we just got beat by 40.

I may not know. I don't know what I'm doing. And he's texting. Only lost by 41. And then we go to Penn State. We get drilled by those guys. And Coach Chambers, Pat Chambers, he could have beat us by 100. He called the dogs off.

We go to Arkansas. They beat us. They could have beat us by 100. And what I realized was, one, as we got into conference, I don't need to prepare a team to beat Power 5s. I need to win our league. And what you need is guard play. And so that next year we bring in nine new players. We brought in Kevin O'Banner at Semester.

He showed up, and I wanted him to kind of go through it to see what it was. And so that was his red shirt here. So that next year we bring in nine new players. Three of those guys start for us right now. One of them is our sixth man who did start as a freshman, but he had some injuries. And so four of the top six guys were with us or part of that nine. And so from that perspective, very similar to the Baylor, right? We bring in Curtis, Henry, Kevin, and Mamadu, and we ride with those.

I was riding with these guys. And the good and the bad, right, the highs and the lows. So when they're freshmen, you're not any good, and we weren't any good. We're actually worse. And then that third year, we play Oklahoma State, I think the second game of the year. We had played a non-D1 and then played. No, you know what? We played in the first game of the year.

and we lose by three. And I was like, oh, man, we may be all right. And go in that next game, play Division I, School, Houston Baptist, and win by 15, 18 plus. And then you're like, okay, we're going to be okay. And then you just, then you just begin this process of instilling belief into your guys. Okay. So, hey, we're good.

Kevin O'Banner, where did you first see him? How'd you get him? I saw him at an AAU event in South Carolina where Zion was at. And Zion was over on that one court. And so everybody was over there. And I went over here to watch Texas Pro. And I remember he got a rebound and he went up and dunked it. And I looked around.

I'm like, all right, nobody else saw that. And then I found out, I said, where is he from? He's from Houston. And I said, all right, what does his parents do? He said they're preachers. I was like, his mom and his dad, they're like both of them. And I was like, so they're like co-pastors of a church. And I was like, okay.

Hey, here we go. And I'm telling you it was laser. I wore that poor kid out. Now, he was getting attention from Wake Forest. And really it was Us or Nevada at the time. But I wore that poor kid out. And, and. So how do you?

How do you go and you sit with parents? And how do you, I mean, obviously them being preachers, they understood Or Roberts, but when they're sitting there, they're trying to judge, okay, my kid could go to Nevada. Yeah. A program that has put guys in the NBA recently, you know, and or I could go to Or Roberts. Like, how do you convince somebody to buy in when there's, there's outside of your association of Baylor, there's no substance? How do you make somebody believe in your vision?

Yeah. Well, one, I think one of the neat things about the 13 NBA guys that I've had the privilege of coaching, 10 of them were never ranked, right? They were never ranked top 100 high school players, Quincy A.C. Perry Jones and Isaiah Austin were. Those other guys, Royce O'Neill, Taurian Prince, Quincy, A.C., F.A. Udo, none of those guys were. And so what you were telling those guys is, listen, I know everybody has. coaches they have all these plays. I'm not a big believer in that. I don't think in January there are two magic plays. I would rather have two better players. And so here is what we're

going to do individual development wise. And I'm not telling you, we're just showing you a schedule. Here's how committed we're going to be to you. Here's your morning workouts. Here's your afternoon workouts. Here's what we're doing. And so it was, listen for me, development's the name of the game. I've been fortunate to be around guys that that's translated. And I'm telling you that I would rather have two better players than two more plays. And you're going to get invested in. And I want you to know that. And you know what?

They have to take a calculated risk whether or not you know what you're doing. And I said you're going to be in a great environment where the temptations are not going to be heavy. And so you are going to have an opportunity. The best thing you can do is be in the gym. and I want you to know that I live in there. And so he decides to come. And you know what? He's a freshman All-American.

He was a freshman conference player of the year. He was the sixth man of the year. And then all of a sudden, hey, you know what? Guess what? What they actually told us has come to fruition. So when you tell Max A-Smiths this, he's like, well, I don't know. I want to eat to Mac.

Yeah. Now you have Kemp. They have Kemp. When in the timeline did you first see match? 4.30 afternoon on a Saturday at an AAU event on court number one at Drive Nation. Okay. And what year? And he runs.

I knew he could shoot. So coming in, I was like, all right, he weighs 120 pounds. It's not very big. That's okay. How tall and 120? How tall? Six foot. Now, 120 is exaggerating, but I literally, he's 140.

He's six foot, 511, 140, but he's off the ball. And he can shoot that thing. And it's like, man, this little dude, if he gets his hands on it, like he can make these shots. And then he runs a pick and roll with a player who ended up going to a Big Ten school. I think they were the only two division one players on that AAU team. and when I say it was to perfection, I was sitting there like,

that is a dime and that's a heck of a read. And the kid just goes up, he's a 6-11 guy, goes up and dunks it. And I just said, holy cow, I said, if this kid can really handle and see like that,

we just need to put weight on him. Because what I realized over the years is we would pass up on kids at Baylor if you were chubby. And they would go on and become conference player the year somewhere else. And I said, you know what? People can lose weight. And you know what? People can gain weight. And so you just began to concentrate, you got less concerned with do they have a big 12 body or do they have a college ready body? It's do they have a college ready skill?

I already knew he could shoot. But when I saw that pass, I was, that was it for me. I was locked. So was he a, was he a junior? Was he going to be? It was a summer. junior. Yeah, he was going into his senior year. He had offers from all the military academies. He's really smart and Marist. And so no other Texas schools. You're in Texas, you're in Texas and you've got a guard that can score and you got, I mean, you got SMU and TCU and there were coaches afterward. You got Texas, you didn't have to be Texas State for him. You'd have to be New TNT and be grant for him. Yeah. And so I will. say this. I thought...

Your eye is better than Grant's size. You're telling me? No, no, no, no. I'm not saying. They were chasing other people. And so everybody gets to chase other people. But I'll tell you, Coach Springman, who is at Texas for 17 years with Coach Barnes, Russell saw him. And he's like, you've got to get here. I'm just telling you. And I was like, all right. And literally, we're like the only people there.

There's like, no, there's Division II schools there. We're like the only Division I schools there. Everybody else is all of these other bigger events. And I think I flew back from South Carolina at that event where I'd seen Kevin. And I flew in to watch Max. And Russell had been there and just like, I'm just, I said, Russell had been at San Diego. And then he was with Oklahoma City Thunder. I said, would you take him at San Diego?

He said, 100%. And I said, that's all I need to know. And he was such a wonderful young man. And so it was, how do we get him? And again, we were fortunate. Okay, so fast forward that to the conference tournament this year. Because you've had a wild year. Like, I've got to have a point.

You guys lost you MCC. On the other hand, they're good, by the way. Huh? They're good, by the way. I know they are. But when you tell people like, they're in the street 16, and the same year they lost the MPC, like, really? Like, we don't even, don't even know.

knows who finished ahead of you in the Summit League, right? They just don't. It's, that's, that's, that's, it, that's kind of the magic of this thing. How did it all come together in the conference tournament? Yeah, I mean, we could have finished. I mean, we had some COVID cancellations, uh, cancellation, you know, and had we been able to win, uh, that game, we'd have been finished second. And so I felt like in the, the problem is, is the first two seeds get buys.

And so we knew going into this that we had to win three games in three days. Well, in our conference. of the 31 conferences that played this year, Ivy League being the only one who didn't, 17 of the 31 played back-to-back games. So we knew, hey, back-to-back we're going to be okay. So the four-five matchup, we had lost a one-point game, and then we had won the other one by 17. So we felt good about that.

The number one seed, we had won by 17, and then we lost by 15. And we really, the South Dakota State. And so, you know, they've had Nate Walters and Mike Dom through the years, really good players. And they had the returning conference player the year. But after our first conference game, I remember telling the staff, I said, I'm pretty sure we got the best point guard in the league. And if we have the best point guard in the league, we have the best team in the league. And I said, this needs to show itself. So we needed to pick up some areas in defensive intensity.

and we needed to better understand shot selection. And if you look down the stretch, I think all of that just begins to come together. You know, it's kind of like, when do your children finally understand? Hey, I've been saying that same message. I've been telling you that for two years. And they come in and like,

Dad, did you know? Well, I've been telling you that for two years. And sometimes it just clicks, right? Well, it clicked. And so we end up winning a buzzer-beater against the number one seed and have a great, first half of up 45 to 20 on on North Dakota State who had won it two years in a row. Wait, so wait, wait, wait, your, your, your, your buzzer beater.

Yeah. Okay. Take me through what, take me through what happened. I down one of you down two. We're a tie game. Okay. And so I saw for max. Wait, how much time you got?

I think we get the ball with 14 seconds. Okay. So got to go to. Are you a timeout guy traditionally? No, only if it's under four. Under four, we call timeout. Anything over four you're going. Okay. Do they have an automatic? Do you have an automatic or you just calling in front of your bench? We have an automatic. All right. So, um, would you get the ball to Max and get the hell out of life? Yes, there you go. There's the automatic. And so there's 14 seconds. You're going to the play at eight.

And, and Max drives. It starts right, crosses it over, goes back, left. And Kevin's on the left block and sneak cuts underneath the rim. And now you're on the right cut. So Max puts up a shot right around the left hash mark. And it's bouncing around. And I'm like, it may fall. It may not. I'm not sure.

You know what it's like when you've seen so many games. Yeah. I know the ones that are going in. But I wasn't sure. So this one rims out. And K.O. had sneak cut under. So he was on the inside of that defender over there. And he reaches his head.

hand up and tips it in. And, uh, and I was, I was 99.9% certain. And when the, uh, when, when the rest go over to the monitor and then they get look over at you and they do this. And it's just, it's elation, right? It's like, thank goodness. Because the reality is, is you thought that the momentum would carry you through day three. Like, I've always game one's the most, but game two is so pivotal. You can't start thinking ahead. Yeah, yeah. And you start thinking ahead, we're going to be in trouble because you're like, oh, a game away from the NCAA tournament. And so I thought momentum would carry us game three. We were up 45, 20 at the half on North Dakota State played really well.

And then they come back. And we have to end up getting a stop in order to winning it. But the only two teams that have won this league since the tournament has moved to South Dakota, they have stayed in the last name. Yeah. And so we understood, I mean, they hear it constantly. Like, do you understand how good you have to be in order to win a conference? There's only two teams that have done it. And they just have a mentality that we don't yet.

So I felt when we overcame that, because they had been preached this all year. I mean, you know how to win in March? I mean, we tell them that we talk about that way back in August. And we got a graphic that we show once a week. This is how you win in March. And so I thought when we were. overcame that because all you, I mean, when you're in a one-bid league, it's a conference tournament. And I felt like that was such a weight off of, the players are like, we're sick of hearing you talk

about it so much. And it's such a joy for those guys to, you know, I was so happy for our players. I mean, our staff has been involved in 81 of these NCAA tournament games, but you're just happy for your players that they get the March Madness experience. All right. So you get done. Did you guys go back to Tulsa? Did you go immediately from the Dakotas to? Oh, yeah. We tried like crazy to get a plane ticket home. So we took a 10-hour bus ride back. They couldn't find any flights to get back to Tulsa within a reasonable time period.

Take a 10-hour bus ride back. And there are a police escort is meeting you four miles from campus. These guys have never seen a police escort. you pull into ORU and hundreds of people are there. Cameras everywhere. Guys are walking off the bus and you just realize like, oh, this is a different experience. And you're just so happy for your guys. And then immediately, so that's a Wednesday and they tell us you have to be in the bubble on Saturday.

Well, we had already had these plans for the watch show on Sunday, you know, that you're already playing. And you're like, man, you have to get here Saturday before the, you don't. even get to see the selection show with your own family. Like you got to be that protected. And sure enough, that Saturday morning at noon, you're on a plane. And we were checked in hotel rooms quarantining at 3 o'clock. So you're getting ready for Ohio State. And they're good.

They're impressive team. I saw them in the Big Ten tournament. I called the thing, you know, where you are the week before. What do you think it would take for you guys to beat them? One, I honestly believe, you know, Max Aismiss is a leading score in the country. He and Kevin are the best duo in the country in regards to points production. We're number one in the country at making threes. We make a little bit more than 11 a game.

We're top 15 at taking care of the ball. And we're top 12 at shooting it, right? Make about 39% of our threes. And so I thought, hey, we need to put Kevin and Max in a whole bunch of middle pick and roll. I think they're the best tandem in the country. And we've seen everything. If you switch, if you hard hedge, if you jam. We've seen it all.

And so those guys kind of understand, and the off ball movement guys understand what it is we're actually trying to look for. And I just thought, like, if we'll put these two in middle pick and roll and we'll take care of the ball and guys will play with the level of confidence and belief, I just said, we'll get it done. So when it went to overtime, when I say I looked in those guys' eyes, you could tell they were really confident. But, you know, what's interesting about it, though,

is you talk about overtime, you had to get one stop to get to overtime, right? Yeah. I mean, all these games, like everybody's killing the Big Ten, like, look, they had their best perimeter player with the ball, a chance to win the game, and you guys got to, you held them to, a really hard contested deep shot 100%. And so what happened was was on that shot, you said, man, because you think they're going to drive it, right? You think they're going to go get a paint touch. And you're just really cautioning your guys not to foul. And you see that

shot and you're just like, oh, that's a tough one. All right. Let's be serious about getting the ball where it needs to be and we take advantage of these next five minutes given that we just got the stop that we needed. And so it was almost like you were resuscitated a little bit. And it was like, all right, we've got to finish this opportunity here. And we were fortunate that we did. All right. So then you're down 11 with less than 10 to go against Florida against Mike White. We travel around and go to camps and clinics with and whatever. Yeah. What was the adjustment you made that helped you come back and win that thing?

Yeah. I mean, down 11, I'm sitting over there going, do I call a timeout? I mean, is this just like, because the reality is, if I called a timeout, they're going to switch defenses. I don't have a magic play here. I need our guys to just stay fluid. You know, you're down five at the half. So now it's turned into 11, a four possession game. And you're just thinking to yourself like, okay, our guys, they have to understand,

one, we have to do a better job on Trey Man. He had two-threes to open up that lead. And so we had to do some different things with our ball screen coverage up top. So what did you do? Put two on him. Before we were just going under, and he made us pay. And they were deep to, I mean, they're NBA threes. And if you look at the opening shot that he makes, it's a drag, and we go under.

He makes it. And then to start the second half, there's two of them, and they're back to back. And we said, we can't do that anymore. Okay, so when you put two on the ball, on the ball screen, now you've got to change rotations behind it as well. A little. I mean, they had a guy who couldn't shoot threes or wouldn't shoot threes. And so we just said, you have to stay in the paint and we're going to go put two on the ball and you've got to get it out of Trey Man's hands.

And, I mean, I don't know that we made it more, we didn't make it more complicated than that. And then offensively, did you make any adjustments there? Offensively, they were switching defenses so much. So they would go back between the man and the one three one. The only thing that the DJ Weaver kid who hit the three to put us up 80 to 78, we're down one, 78 77 with two minutes to play. We were getting good looks in the left corner. And DJ hadn't made a shot.

He was 0 for five. But DJ Weaver is a six foot eight, really good shooter. And I just looked at him and I said, DJ, you're about to get a corner three. You're in the left wing on this one three one. I need you to make it. And he said, I got you. So, and if you look at the film, you can see me motioning one kid to get to the other side.

I'm telling DJ, we just come from the huddle, DJ. You're supposed to be, and I'm, get there. And you're sure enough, Max gets in there, draws to, throws it to DJ. And you know what? He knocked that down. Can I tell a quick story real quick? Yeah.

What reminds me of? So I tell this to what I've done, the Oklahoma Coach Association clinic a bunch of different times and I've told this story a couple of times I go around the room I say what's the best thing about coaching right and I know if you got to run

and tell me we'll just go like five more minutes so I said you know what's the best thing about coaching and they're all you know like relationships and watching a kid grow is like that's all great I'm not diminishing that you know what the best thing is when you practice something

and you show this kid something and you show them where and then in the game the exact work you tell them in the huddle and then you run it and not only do they they catch it where you told me to catch it they're open like you told them they're open they shoot like and then it goes in the basket and everybody looks at you like you're the smartest human being heard right that's that to me honestly like is the best is the I helped you and then your skill took over right so that that had to be a great rewarding moment what's it like for you though when that ball goes to the basket and all of a sudden you go from down a you've got to lead under two to go.

Yeah, we better get a stop. We better not mess up this train man coverage at all. And, I mean, because that's what you're worried about. I mean, guards win this time of year. And I'm fortunate that I basically put five of them out there because all of them can shoot. And so from that perspective, it was don't mess up this trade man coverage. If we're going to get beat, let's get beat on it too. Don't let him come off and go under and let him kill us off a three.

So like let's be really aggressive on the ball and let's make somebody else make a play. And we ended up getting a turnover. What's that feeling like when you see double zeros and you're going to Sweet 16? Yeah, I mean, one, I had to apologize to Chris Holman and to Michael White. And both of them were class facts. But you get so caught up in the moment, right? A player comes over and immediately hugs you and you forget, like, you have some responsibility, sportsmanship responsibilities to go acknowledge the other coach.

And you just lose it, right? I mean, there's a, Mike was great. He just come over and grab me. And I said, Mike, I'm so sorry. He said, I want you to know I'm really happy for you. And I don't know that I could do that in that moment. And it speaks volumes about Mike. But I think you're just, again, you're happy for your players.

Like, I mean, when that, it's almost like, you. You want your guys to experience, just like you want your children to have certain experiences. I've had the experience of Sweet 16s. You want your guys to have that experience. And so from that perspective, it's great. But I can tell you, if you lose, it's awful. It's brutal. And so you're just, you're really just, I think for me, I hate losing more than I like winning.

I expect to win. you prepared to win. I think you were going to do all the things. The losing, I did not anticipate. I didn't expect it. And I go to depths that people shouldn't go to. Nothing. I just stay up all night.

It's brutal. It's agonizing. And the problem with this is you don't, like when you do it during the season, it's, all right, let's figure this out so we can help our guys. This, it's over. and you don't want it to be over with your players. Okay, so you got Arkansas. You played Arkansas.

You led Arkansas at the half. What do you have to do this time that you didn't do early this season? Yeah, one, they're a different team. I mean, they played certain guys that game that they don't play at all now. I mean, there were multiple guys who played 30, 30 plus in that game, who get very little time now. They're way different. I tell you that we're way different, too.

Our third leading score went down 10 games ago. And so what it's happened is Max has to be more assertive. And we were playing Max about 70, 30 on ball, off ball at that time. Well, now it's 100% on ball. And so we're different. And I also think we understand how people approach us, how people attack us. Like, we've seen it. You know, we played the third toughest non-conference schedule in the country.

All five non-conference opponents went to the NCAA tournament, you know, down five, lose by five to Oklahoma State, lose by five to Wichita State. At a 12 point leading the second half against Arkansas, and you lose that game. And so I can tell you that there was nobody who was happy about that because we realized these are the areas we needed to tighten up. And it came at a really good time for us because it was right before Christmas. So when our guys got back, that was fresh, but they had days off. So they were mentally fresh.

And so we knew the areas we needed to clean up in order to win games like that. And I think those things are what's going to really help us. Okay. There's a bunch of that's really good. On the court at the baby center, I believe it still says expect a miracle, right? It does on the baseline, yeah. Okay. I don't, it wasn't, those two games that you won, they weren't miraculous, right?

Those aren't miracles. No. But I'd still say to an outsider looking in, considering what you took over, the league you're in, what you're up against in terms of financial resources, you know, comparison to your competition. It would be fairly miraculous to get Oral Roberts to a final four. Have you allowed yourself? You said, you just told me that, like, hey, the hard part of the three games is the second game, right, where you start thinking, have you allowed yourself at least the possibility that's two games away from taking oral robbers to a funnel for it? You know what? Honest to goodness, after Ohio State, I had no idea who we were playing.

I was like, who's on the other side of the bracket? Like, who is it? And they was like, Virginia Tech, Florida. I was like, well, who won? I was like, are they any good? It's weird now because you're not in the same spot. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so I didn't, I didn't even know. After the Florida game, I'm like, who do we play now? And they were like, well, Texas Tech, Arkansas. Like, honest to goodness,

I just realized, because Scott and I were together yesterday, I didn't even know they were in the South. I didn't even know we were in the same region. And so I did know, because I was following Grant, I did know that if they won, they played Baylor, but it never clicked. that, oh, they're on the same side as us. Because, honest, I am not a multitasker. I'm a focused guy, and I get locked in on something, and I can tell you the whole world can just disappear. I don't pay attention to much else.

But now I'm aware that it's Baylor-Villanova, but it's not as quick a turnaround, right? When you get the seating announcement on Sunday, and you're like, you play Friday night, and you know you got to present a scout to your guys on Tuesday, you go through every single game Ohio State played, and you're clipping it and you're staying up. So you're not even aware of anything else.

And then you're just, here's the game playing, guys, here's the game plan. So when that one's over, then you're staying up all night getting ready for Florida. And you're just going, going, going, and so you're not even aware. So now, yesterday we were off. And now, so now you've got a little bit of time to kind of have an idea about it. So how do you manage conditioning? Well, we played back-to-back games, so our guys are great. They just played, obviously, Saturday night.

Kevin and Max played 85 minutes, so they never came out. Played 45 minutes to Ohio State, 40 minutes against both of them against Florida. So yesterday we're off. We will do, here in about an hour, we'll do a really light workout. They'll lift. We'll do about 45 minutes. They'll get up and down a little, but like five on O and then you've got to guard the scout team in transition. Like we'll probably do about 12 minutes of that and then about 35, 40 minutes of shooting.

And then so today won't be much. So in essence, they get two days. And then Wednesday and Thursday, those will be hard. Friday will be light and then you play Saturday night. Pretty great. Well, listen, pretty humble beginning. obviously, and you're still a pretty humble guy. Did you get the clothes washed that you needed to get washed?

When you and I started this, they hadn't been here. And so, no socks, no undershirts, not going to tell you what else I don't have. So this is the same thing I wore yesterday. Good thing that we were off yesterday and I didn't have to leave the hotel room. That's it. That was a plus. That's different. And so the clothes have shown up.

So I'm looking forward to putting on fresh clothes. they arrived about 30 minutes into this. Well, it's been an amazing story. I can't wait to see what you got in store for us for Saturday. And you've dedicated a lot of your time to join me, and I really appreciate it. Doug, you're the best, man. Honest to goodness, if there was a low goal Hall of Fame, you'd be in it. I'm in.

We're ending on that. Thanks, Bob. I thought you didn't appreciate that one and enjoy that one. It was a long one. It was a good one. And I love that recruiting pitch. I'd rather have two more guys and two more plays. It's pretty good.

Solid. I'd rather have both, right? I'd rather have a couple of go-toes, automatics, gadgets. I'd rather have both. But it's pretty interesting what's happened with Scott Drew now, producing Grant McCaslin. They won a game, and Paul Mills was won two games.

And they're starting to, that little crew, which is very tight and, but very enjoyable to be around, is doing an incredible job in Texas, in Oklahoma and I'll be interested to see if Jerome Tang ends up taking a job. You know, Paul just said he priced himself out of O'Roberts. That's fine. Paul got himself a job.

It's pretty cool stuff. Meanwhile, you can listen to the Doug Gottlieb show daily, 3 to 6 Eastern, 12-3 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, the IHeartRadio app. You can also download it as a podcast. Listen to it wherever you want. If you like this podcast, we'll make sure you subscribe, you download your rate. Write a review. Write a review. Come on, how long as it take?

And tweet it out, send it to a friend and say, man, you might want to listen to this. really, really good stuff. Thanks for so much of the positive feedback. Love it. My thanks to Paul Mills. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1800 Flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination.

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