The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Pt. 1: Georgia Tech HC Josh Pastner on, Walking On at Arizona, Lute Olson Lessons, Following Coach Cal

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

In this episode, Doug sits down with Georgia Tech Head Coach Josh Pastner for the first installment of a multiple part interview, where they discuss his youth hoops background growing up in Houston, how he landed a walk on spot on for Lute Olson at Arizona, his memories from the '97 national championship run, the unbelievable way he got the Memphis job, and the challenges of following Coach Cal and keeping the program together. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hey, what up, welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and you are listening to All Ball, where today's guest is head coach of Georgia Tech, Josh Pastor. He'll take us through his journey growing up in Houston. how his dad became like an AAU legend, really kind of interesting, humble beginnings, and how he felt as part of a national championship team at Arizona when he was a walk-on who was working out a lot of the players. There's a bunch of really good stuff in here.

It's a two-part interview. This is part one. And it's interesting because he just had a tremendous point guard finish his ACC player of the year at Georgia Tech. and the point guard has been wildly discussed. I've been told, I've been told time and again that the position has changed. You can't play the way that you were taught to play. And then I give you Chris Paul.

Now, look, Chris Paul, I mean, he averaged 25 and 10. Part of it was he averaged 25. Part of it was he was playing against backups. Part of it is you do, look, you got to score. You got to keep the defense honest. But there's just a difference to how he plays. as opposed to a Russell Westbrook, right? The numbers look the same to the layman,

but the style is very, very, very, very different. And finally seeing a point guard, the truest of point cards, get the acclaim that he deserves, because he finally got out of that second round, and to this point isn't injured, is a great thing, not a good thing, a great thing. I guess the question is, maybe we'll ask this of coaches,

is does it change the way you evaluate the position that Chris Paul this far in can still do it the way he's always done it. That's a pretty good question, right? That's why I do what I do. I would point out that they've played banged up, banged up teams. And that's fair. That's not in anywhere an unfair commentary about how and why they've been able to do what they've been able to do.

On the other hand, like if we're going to say that, we've got to just point out that they completely and thoroughly whooped the hell out of out of the Denver Nuggets. And look, they were, it felt like dead to rights beaten, but the mistake that the Lakers and Anthony Davis got hurt at the end of the first half of game four,

but the Lakers rubbed two games to one and they couldn't kill their spirit. Like that was a big thing. They just, they couldn't kill their spirit. And when you can't kill somebody's spirit, when you allow them to hang around and believe they have a chance to win a game, these are the type of things that oftentimes happen, right?

So I think for Monty Williams, considering all of, do people know that Monty Williams lost like two years of college because he had a heart issues? It was right around the Hank Gathers time. They started testing people's hearts and they shut him down for like a year and a half. This really, really happened. It's special that for Monty and, you know, I believe it's pretty special for Chris Paul considering how he's been viewed or how he's been portrayed. trade by so many in that, well, he always gets hurt or you can't be a six foot guard and

do it anymore. Not that way. You got to do it to Steph Curry, the Tray Young way. I beg to differ. Still pretty special to watch. All right, more to come on that. First, let's get to our first part of our talk with Josh Pastor, the head coach of Georgia Tech. Okay, so this is actually my favorite part. Your first memories of basketball. Now, you can't say what you're told, your actual first memories of basketball are what and where. Well, good question. My first memories, you know, and what was told. Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't been asked that maybe in a long time. But I do remember in fifth grade telling my father, I was watching the Lakers and Celtics. This was when I was in fifth grade. I was watching the Lakers

and Celtics play in one of those national networks on a weekend. And I remember telling my dad that, you know, and even when I was younger at that age, I loved hoops. I remember telling my dad that, hey, look, if I can't play in the NBA, who doesn't want to play in the NBA? The next thing to playing was coaching. And I said, if I'm going to put all my energy starts coaching, so it allows me to stay in the game.

I remember telling them that as a fifth grader. Okay, so this is in Houston, right? This was in Houston, Texas. I grew up in Houston, Texas, and then I made my way on to the University of Arizona. Wait, no, no, no, don't start skipping steps on me. Okay, so when you're like your fifth and sixth grade, did you play travel ball? Was your dad coaching you? Like, what was the setup?

Yeah, you know what? Yeah, I was playing. travel ball. You know, I was playing all the sports. I was into baseball, football, soccer. I mean, I played everything. But I did, my, my dad actually started a AAU team at the time. And it was just really did kind of spend more time, father's son type thing, never thinking of where it could go to. What, what, did he, sorry, did he do this for a living at the time? Was this? No. No, he did not. He did not. He was not in basketball. He ran a competitive basketball league in our local community on every Saturday morning, all day Saturdays. It was called the competitive basketball league, the CBL. And he started a travel team that we just called the Kingwood All-Stars. I grew up in Kingwood, Texas, which is north of Houston, north of the, or north of the back in the day that they called, the Intercontinental Airport is now the George, George W. Bush Airport, but just north of that.

And but he, every Saturday, we would have the CBL be a local community basketball league we would play. And so, but that was just doing it because he loved, he knew how much I love basketball. And it was for the community. He did it for the youth and the kids. But that then, Doug, moved into the Houston Hoops. And that's when the Houston Hoops, which is still going strong today, my dad eventually, my father, Hal Pastor, eventually went into the tournament business. And both he had his first company

with the tournament business. Later on, this is what he went into full time. He did Vision Sports. And then he went into Bigfoot Hoops. He sold Vision Sports, sat out a couple of years, came back under Bigfoot Hoops, and then ended up selling that. He's out of it.

it now but still runs the Houston Hoops. Okay, so the fifth, sixth grade, were you, were you good, were you the best player? Did he go out and recruit dudes? Like, you're this Kingswood, you know, travel team. How good were you? How good was your team? Well, the Kingwood, it was in Kingwood, or Kingwood All-Stars. I mean, we were just a local group. I was a solid player. I could shoot the ball. I knew the game. But, you know, I was solid. It wasn't until we moved on, that we start, you know, and you moved to the, uh, when we got more towards the Houston hoops was when you started attracting and recruiting talent and, and, and, and better players. When I say better players, just, you know, you know, higher level guys that you weren't just

in that, and just into that city, into that local community. When you stretched out all throughout Houston, you know, eventually, obviously, as the Houston hoops continue to progress, you would have guys from Dallas and Louisiana and things like that. But yeah, that's kind of, that's kind of how it started and moved from there. Okay, so high school, who coached you in high school and what was your high school career like? And I do want to say, Doug, because, you know, and I, you know, I'm obviously, and we'll get into it maybe later, but, you know, for people that don't know, and I'm sure they do the ones that follow you on Twitter and stuff, but how close you were to your father and how your dad was,

you know, I call him Coach Gottlie, how your dad was, you know, he was a college coach, but he, the amount of kids, he helped. And I say this to people all the time, you know, talking about your father and other people in the grassroots industry, the amount of young people they've helped all throughout, And not only is it a great bonding between the father and son like you and obviously your brother, but the time and effort that your dad had put in to help so many other people. And the grassroots world of that was amazing.

And obviously, your dad was a pioneer in grassroots basketball. And I wanted to make note that he's one of the great, great people that I've ever come across. in all of hoops. So I've always had just a fondness for your dad. But when I was at Kingwood High School, I was coached by Royce Huseman. I played on the B team my freshman year. And then my sophomore year, I was on the sophomore team.

And then my junior year, I was able to be able to make the varsity group. And then my senior year, I started and was, you know, and I was played team there. So it was good. So, okay, so it's interesting you bring up my dad and how, you know, part of your dad's reasoning for starting a team is so that you spend more time together. Like my,

and I read an article the other day, which was fascinating, which is, you know, like the car ride is the new dinner table, right? Where now, you know, parents, because kids have all these activities, you don't have time to sit down at dinner table, so you grab somebody to eat, and that's when you have your conversations about the day or whatever. Like, that was my life, you know? Like, my dad would pick me up, and, you know, whether we would go train with, like, you know, I had two different trainers I worked, two or three different trainers I worked through

through in terms of, like, my body, or go pick up a teammate, and then go to practice, and I would have my books with me, and, you know, I'd have to kind of give it a passing glance, whatever, do a little studying. And then I was listening to sports radio or some of his, like, he had old time radio on tapes. But like most afternoons when we'd have practice, like that was my existence as a kid. Like I don't know. Yeah, that's what I remember. So what was your, what was your, you're in high school.

Okay. You're on the B freshman team. Is that what you said you were on? I was on the freshman B team, my freshman year. and then I was on the sophomore team, my sophomore year, then was able to make the varsity my junior year, and then started my senior year. Wait, so how good was your varsity?

We were, I mean, the coach, Roy Seussman was a very good basketball coach, or he is a very good basketball coach. He was there a long time, just, you know, very fundamentally sound. And we had some good players, and I love playing. We had good pickup games. I mean, I had a great passion for the game. And obviously I still do, but just when I was young, when I look back, I mean, the amount of times, you know, I would play one-on-one with, you know, some of my teammates.

We would just go play one-on-one at the local elementary school at the hoop or the front yard. And just, you know, I look back at the amount of, you know, games we would play just, just again, whether it's pickup basketball or one-on-one or, you know, you're just doing those type of things. And what I would say when you were talking about your dad, the training, you know, As you know, a very good friend of yours, a very good friend of mine, Miles Simon, kind of the same thing, you know, him and his closeness of his father through basketball, which was really cool. And then I remember my dad taking down in Orange County when you're talking about shooting.

I don't know if you remember, if you know this guy. You ever heard of Desflut? Desflut. Yeah, Desflut, of course. Unfortunately, he's passed away, but he was known as one of the great shooting coaches at the time. You know, people would come to him about shooting. and I actually went out there and spent some time with them, believe it or not. And he was a brilliant shooting coach, you know, just with that.

So, yeah, knowing that from your area over there. So how did you decide to go to Arizona? I know, like, I remember talking to Miles about you, and I remember the Sports Illustrate article about you going there to be a coach. But what's the, what was the real story behind how you decided this was the spot? Yeah, you know what? You know, Doug, I sent a letter to every single Division I, Division I, Division I, Division I, Division I, Division I, Division I, Division I, Division I, New, New, and NAA, Division II schools to over a thousand personal handwritten letters to over a thousand schools, telling them what I wanted to do.

You know, look, I recognize at that time I wasn't playing in the NBA. But I still thought I was a good player and I could play. You know, I thought I could go play at Arizona or some school like that. I could just, you know, be good enough in my mind. And, and, uh, but I did send a letter to all over a thousand schools, personal handwritten letters. And I talked a letter. I can be a positive impact, a positive teammate.

Um, you know, I can work the guys out, you know, all those type of things, won't count against time limits or anything like that. Um, and, and coach Olson saw the letter and responded to me now. I think he also liked our AAU team because we had some really good players. Probably wanted to bring me there and the drag guys that I would drag guys with me to Arizona. But he gave me an opportunity. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

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We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drink. Sidebar. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a bogo. Well, then you got it. Do you want a white collar or something here? Just hit it.

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And I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on. Oh. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, at that time, I thought again, I would come in there and I knew Steve Kerr had played there. I thought maybe I'll be the next Steve Kerr or something. You know, man, after that first pickup game in August when I was there, guys like Miles Simon and Jason Terry and Mike Bibby,

literally in that first pickup game, I knew it was like, nope, not happening. And I could see it right away. And so for myself, really ever being a, you know, and what was amazing when I was there, Doug, in this first few, because I would be in the gym all the time, I think Miles Simon, Michael Bibby, Michael Dickerson, you know, Jason Terry. I tell people all the time I'm the leading rebounder at Arizona because I would just be in the gym all the time. I'd be rebounding for those guys.

But those first few months, believe it or not, I would then come in and take my turn shooting and they would end up, they would end up rebounding for me. Sure. Mike Sidney was chasing around the, Miles Simon was chasing around my miss shots. You know, and passing it back to me, we were doing like two ball, three man shooting. And I was involved in the, like actually, because I was still thinking I could work on my game. But eventually that midway through that my freshman year, we stopped doing that because just I was not going to end up being a, there's no need for that. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox SportsRadio.com.

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and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Okay, so I know, like, I was, and not as outwardly desirous to be a coach as you were, but, you know, like, I always thought I'd do one of three things.

I'd keep playing, and not either to be a broadcaster or be a coach, right? It's like, in your blood, it's in your blood. And, but I didn't take, like, copious notes. everything is up here, which sometimes gets, it gets skewed. The national championship run, would you learn about coaching and players? Because what I think you had the unique ability to do was you kind of got to do both, which guys don't, coaches wish they could be in that position where because you were one of the guys, you got to see how the coaches' messages were actually received, right?

or and because you wanted to be a coach, you could see what works and what doesn't work. What was it about Lou Wilson and the coaching staff that allowed you guys to win the national championship from your perspective? Yeah, you know, first of all, I remember I was, I remember as an 18-year-old freshman, I told the guys in one of the late nights we were shooting early in August or early September, late August,

hey man we're going to win the national championship but we've got to be the hardest working team and I look back when I told the guys that I'm thinking of myself here and what was I thinking to even say that at 18 I'm surprised I didn't you know luckily we had good guys at Arizona they didn't just want to like you know you know just pummel me because like who is this walk on saying this you know what I mean like stay in your lane in a sense but we had good guys you know fortunately and but you know what I would tell you is a few things looking back after that freshman year, we won the championship. One, I remember, after we won it, I remember telling my dad, man, this is easy.

We're going to do this every year. I remember my dad telling me, man, savior this. And now that I've been ahead, I've been in the game for a long time now, even though I'm only 43, but I've been a head coach for 12 years, going on my 13th year, been a long time assistant. You know, you recognize, it's almost impossible to win the national championship. I mean, it's you've got to get lucky. You got to get, it means only one team. So when I look back about being in that rarefied era of being part of a team that's won the national championship,

because it's one of the hardest things to do, Doug, is to win six games in a one game scenario when you're dealing with 18 to 22 year olds. And you know, you have an off night shooting or something's going on. It's just, you know, you're going to, there's a good chance you're going to lose the game. So, but what I've learned through that stretch, number one is coach, Coach Lude Olson. I don't think he gets, even though he's in the basketball Hall of Fame, he, and I know you feel the same way. about Eddie Sutton, Coach Sutton, and thankfully he got in the Hall of Fame. He just well-deserved. Probably, you know, he should have got in there earlier. But you know this, this guys like Eddie Sutton. And I think the same thing with Lud Olson. They're vastly underrated. Even though

they're the Hall of Fame, a lot of people don't put them in the trajectory sometimes of the elite coaches. They don't get talked about as much for whatever reason that is. And I tell people all time. Like Lut Olson single-handedly built the program, literally built the city in Tucson of what he did in Arizona. I mean, took it from just below ground zero and to bring it to where it is is to one of the national elite programs. And a stretch to over 17 years was the winningest program in the entire country for 17 straight years. I say all that to say, the biggest thing I've learned from them, I mean, there's a lot of things I learned from. But looking at that year, number one, his preparation in practice was just unmatched.

His preparation and the way he conducted practice was unbelievable. Two, the respect the guys had for him, both fear and respect. That's true. I mean, fear and respect. They did not want to disappoint him. I mean, that was huge. And three, let me tell you this, he's one of the hardest working head coaches and recruiting that I've ever seen.

And he didn't have to be that way, but he was in the gym for morning, new night and you know when he you know this Doug when he walked into a place in Southern California in a tournament in Los Angeles or somewhere in the West Coast it was like a movie star walking in there you know here's like he was always dressed

appropriate I mean like just like a like an A list movie star No no no you you nailed it like there were I think I'm trying to think there's anybody else there was Chesheps he was kind of like a mythical figure he would come in but I think

Lute and Roy were the guys that they'd walk in and everyone would be like, who's he here to see? Who's he here to see? And Lute was kind of regal, right? The silver hair, like, perfectly dressed, like, you know, Polo never had any sort of wrinkles in it. I mean, he was, he was always fit, right? So he didn't look like a mess.

Some of these guys looked like a mess. Yeah, he was, he was, he was remarked. When you won the National Championship, I'll never forget this shit. I remember going back and watching the game and like right after the game, like you got like right in front of the camera. And then they kind of shove you out of the way. Like what was the existence like for you, though, as a guy who didn't play, but you're watching and you're very much a part of it. How do you process all that? Yeah, no, look, I mean, you're, I didn't play, you know, anything in meaningful games that where there was a real like, you know, I mean, I, I mean, I,

I would get in when the game. They all wanted a passenger game. I was getting in when I was up when we're up 20 or more. So. Was it called a passenger game? It was called a pastor game because it made, that mean the restaurants in Tucson were, everything was better because it was just a good win. It was a no stress game.

And everyone was happy. We got those, we got those get right games. You got to get right. You got to get right. You got to get right. They called the pastor game. But I used to tell Miles and those guys all the time,

Miles Simon and all those. Like, hey man, you got to, it's on you guys to get me in. So, like, you guys got to do your part. Like, I can't control it. So you guys got to make sure you do your part. But I say all that to say that, look, I was, I had, I knew at that point I wanted to coach. I knew my playing career was going to be over at, you know, this was it. Like, as in terms of, like, like, during, to get my fix, Doug, I would go to like the, to the, whether it's the JCC, a local place to go play five on five, you know, just on like Saturday mornings and stuff. But I would, I mean, I would be involved in practice here and there. But, yeah, I mean, I love, I mean, I love to play, but I had to go get that fix of actually

playing competitively in a game type of atmosphere more and pick up basketball on Saturday mornings, Sunday mornings, things like that outside of the team. Because the reality of it was, you know, you look at the guys that we had at Arizona. I mean, there was no chance. It was no chance. So, so, and I want to say this, Coach Olson, his ability to evaluate, you know, everyone talks about recruiting, Doug. Player evaluation is huge. Recruiting is, I tell people, recruiting is easy. I, anyone can go see the one through 20 and say, okay, he's a really good player. You don't need to be a real expert in basketball to determine who's that. And yeah, recruiting, can you get them and all that? That's

enough, but it's about evaluating. The best are able to evaluate. Evaluation is everything. And I'm telling you, I don't know who is much better than coach Olson at evaluating. I mean, how many guys in the West Coast that ended up being superstars that nobody wanted that were in backyards of other schools? People didn't think they were good enough. And so, you know, and also the thing with Arizona,

Even before I went there, what you were known for was that that cactus logo, you know, and on that Saturday afternoon game in the Pac-12 or at the time, the Pac-10. And so there was always good games like that. And you'd always see the cactus logo there. But think about it. And I'm using, again, I'm going to use a guy like Miles Simon, because I know you and him are really close. He was not highly recruited.

I don't, you know, and I think Coach Olson, you know, did a lot, you know. Well, what happened with Miles was the first day of first day of a live period in the summer before his senior year, Toby Bailey committed to UCLA. And so here's where things are different now than they were. And I think there's some similarities, whatever. Here's where they're different now is we hated Toby Bailey. Like we grew up playing against Toby Bailey and Ricky Price. And at the time, like, we didn't like those guys. They were on a rival AAU team.

And so it was one thing to not have offered Miles. And like we grew up as UCLA, like it was right there. Like they were, he wasn't as close to the program as I was, but we went to the games. And they were recruiting him, but they hadn't offered him yet. So to not offer him right away, to offer Toby and Toby take it and it was like, all right, well, there goes their wing spot. And I think they still end up coming around and offering Miles. but it was more the they didn't offer him at first

and they would do the we just play the five best guys sort of BS whatever he just felt like one of the spots was gone so that kind of opened him up and he was the one who was he kind of got me into thinking about Florida the two of us we went to the I remember going to Final

4 in 94 and I was all about Florida because my dad coached and recruited Lon and and he actually visited there and loved it and then got on the plane and realized how far it was to get back and he's like, I can't do it. But yes, he was a little bit of fall through the cracks kind of thing, right?

And part of it was like SC, we weren't the cats going to SC, like Stace Boson went to SC. You know, Cal ended up taking Jelani Gardner and Tony Gonzalez who played with us. You know, Doug, I know, and I was going to say, and you bring up some great memories there. And obviously Toby Bailey ended up, you know, they ended up win the national title.

That's championship, yeah. Yeah, and he had a great freshman year. I think they were thinking he was going to, you know, continue to progress, you know, because I remember how good he. I think that it was his freshman years when he won the national championship. But I'll tell you what, it's amazing in the grassroots world.

And you tell me if you agree with me on this, some of the legends and grassroots are all from the West Coast. And I'm not talking in today's, I'm talking in the past. And I remember, and I tell people it's like, I remember going to, going to the tournament there. I think it was an Ocean View High School. You sure, tournament champions? Yeah, but they had, and the gym was open, you know, the door was open because you felt

the breeze coming in. And so, you know, like, and you look back now, like, like Izzy Washington. but like you know obviously you know like at the time there is they i forget who wrote the book was it might have been dan wetzel was it about uh with with um no it wasn't dan wetzel um but it was with with recruiting play their hearts out play their hearts out that's what's called yeah yeah but it was but it was but it was and a lot of it people don't people really don't know this and you you'll know this but like one of the great incredible stories was Sheikotten.

And he was, he was like LeBron James, before LeBron James in high school, if that makes sense. Obviously, he doesn't have the same career as LeBron James, but the hype, he was at that time, remember there was no social media. No question. He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated.

In high school. And that was back, yes. And his jumping ability, like, like, like, you would talk about people would, because again, there was no social media, people like the the the the myth about him the mythical things around the country about him in grassroots basketball he was lebron james in high school before lebron james again it's a different career past but i don't know if people fully or z or or zion right he left or zion there you go yeah

that way you make better comparison what's crazy about shea is he was he was so talented so good his brother wasn't his brother's like a couple years older my age or maybe he's great he's great maybe a little bit older. His brother actually made the NBA and had half the talent of Shay. So it really is a, you know, it's about finding a role. It's about the little things, you know, I'm not a proponent of guys going straight from high school to the pros. But if there's a guy that, and that was, that was why he was on the cover of Sports Illustrate. Could he go straight from high school to pros? And he didn't. And Kevin Garnett did the year before. Yeah. And he probably should have.

And had he had he had done that, he would have stuck in the NBA for a decade. Well, you know, and I think the book was called shoe wars, wasn't it? Oh, there was one called shoe wars as well. Yeah, I was thinking of George Jormann's book on a little bit later generation. No, the one before that, shoe wars. And a lot of it was, you know, the guy, the, there was a, I just slips my mind there, but, but a lot of it was with Southern California recruiting and stuff like that. but it was called Shoe Awards at the time.

That kind of was the first talk about grassroots basketball and how everything was maneuvering, you know, in grassroots basketball. There's actually one called Raw Recruits. Maybe that's what it is. Raw recruits. So Raw recruits was Armin Ketan, and my dad's actually in that book when I was in sixth grade. This is a true story.

This is a great story. But I was in sixth grade, we had a kid named Lorenzo Lee Lauau. And Lorenzo was Samoan. He was six foot, mustache. Like my group now, we spot the mustache. He was in trouble. You know, he had muscles. And so he was the best, the two best players in Southern California at that age.

Kobe was really good. But it was Cameron Murray. and Lorenzo Liloa. And we played them, we played Cameron's team in the Southern California Championships for the AAU national title. And we lost. And so they got to pick up two guys to our team. So they picked up me, coach's son, and Lorenzo. And, you know, my dad was, you know, I don't know, Lorenzo's dad started driving a new minivan.

And I don't know if Rich Goldberg bought him the minivan or whatever, but we never had Lorenzo Lila ever again. I don't think he was ever, I think he played, he was good for one more year and then he was the exact same player. And I think Rich Goldberg's team was ARC. Was it? ARC. ARC mid-valley. So they had, they had Alex Lopez, guys that went on to playing college were very good. I think Michael Quinn played for them.

Anyway, so yeah, I played for them that national tournament. We beat everybody. I didn't play that much. And, yeah, that was raw recruits. So it's in raw recruits. And it's interesting because there was a line in there in the book. And I love your opinion on this. And it was about my dad.

And it was, I think Armand wrote it. Like basketball is a game that my dad loved it, didn't love him back. And I thought it was pretty harsh at the time. I think there was some reality to it. But I actually now, I totally disagree. like it didn't give him back financially and he when he got fired in 84 and he went up he was at Oregon state like a volunteer assistant for a year in 85 but after that he never got back in it gave him everything he needed in his life he didn't need he wasn't about the money he liked

the game and he liked the kids and he like helping the kids succeed like that's literally what he love. And, you know, your dad, I think the game has given him a lot and has given you guys an incredible relationship. And it has given you a great amount. What's your perspective on what a reasonable expectation should be on what the game can give you back? Like what is how should, how do you perceive something like that? Yeah, great question, Doug. I mean, look, I mean, the game has been just awesome to all of us. I mean, look, I look at myself here. I mean, I've been to, I'm coaching the ACC because of the game of basketball. Right.

I mean, I'm, you know, I mean, I've been to multiple countries. You know, I've traveled just all because of basketball. I can have a laundry list of things. And so the people that you meet, you're the connection. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing huge.

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The biggest decisions. If you're going to look at stats and numbers, he has no shot at making this World Cup. team. And the truth about the U.S. national team. It wouldn't be a huge surprise if our team ends up in the quarterfinals or potentially a great run into the semifinals. The World Cup is almost here. Experience it all with us. Listen, inside American soccer with Tom Bogart and Tabramos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. I could just go on on and people love basketball globally. They love basketball. And I can tell you how many doors things have

open just based on even grassroots basketball because someone's son or daughter wants to be a basketball player and they're in grassroots basketball. I say all that to tell you this. You know, you've coached, you know, obviously, you know, overseas with the in the Maccabi games and obviously your dad was a coach. I know you're coaching your son's group now. But with coaching, and I think your dad would agree with this, and I think you'll agree with this. As we all know when you're a coach, when you, you know, the game is just, it gives you so much. It's so much joy. But there's no doubt when you lose, it hurts.

And only a coach can fully understand that. Like sometimes people say, well, it's just a game. When you are invested emotionally and when that, and when that, That ball does not fall in, and it's such a maker-miss game. And it's such a fine line. And I've heard Jeff Van Gundy say this before, like good coach, bad coach really determines that the ball go in or not. And I see it all the time.

You've sometimes to be successful, yes, you've got to have good players and be, you know, good tactician in some areas and all that good. But you've got to be a little lucky along the way. You've got to be a little lucky with just your team staying healthy. you've got to be lucky that possibly that the guys you recruit are better than maybe that you expected. You've got to be lucky along the way that a couple shots go in in a certain game to give you some momentum. I mean, it's really a fine line of the game in coaching. Yeah. Is there, I don't, I mean, it is such a small margin. Doug, you know that. I mean,

a free throw here, a free throw there, a turnover there, a whistle. Like, I think college officials, Like a call here and a call there can change the outcome of the game. Not intentionally or not, but things can change. And it can change the whole course of someone's career and or season. And it's such a fine line. And so I think there's so much joy out of the game of basketball and it gives us all so much. But I also do think on those losses, it can wear on. It's not easy when you know when you're invested into it, it wears on you.

And then secondly, the game is when you're a coach, it is such a fine line in so many areas. I don't know if you would agree with that or not. Oh, I agree on every different level there. Every level. Every level. I mean, you don't think about it. When you're constantly thinking, okay, you're you're, you don't, you know, at night, you wake up, you're thinking this or thinking that. There is no like, you're never off.

There's no off switch. No, there's no off switch. And that's where I tell people like, yeah, it's not, you're not a, you can't, and it's not about the money you make or anything. It's not anything to do with that. It's just that you're never off because you're constantly thinking about what do we got to do to run a program to continue to try to be successful with winning, but then you've got to get the guys bet.

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Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discover the Forest. Forest.org, brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. How'd you get the Memphis job? Oh, I got the Memphis job because I got lucky, right place, right time. You kidding me? I tell people all the time. I try to get other jobs. I couldn't even get an interview.

The only reason I got the Memphis job, Doug, was because I was John Caliperi's assistant. Thank the good Lord. He gave me the opportunity to be his assistant. and because he went to Kentucky and in his last four years at Memphis, he was the winningest coach in the history of the NCAA in a four-year time period. Nobody wanted to follow them. They tried to hire so many coaches. They couldn't hire anybody because nobody wanted the job because nobody wanted to follow John Caliperi.

I just happened to be as assistant. I was there. I was excited and ready to go to Kentucky with Coach Calipari. I didn't even think about the Memphis job. I just, so, so how did it, so how did it happen? So, so you don't only, and you've only been there a year. It wasn't like you were there for the whole year. You're only there for a year. I was only there a year. Okay, so where were you when you found out first he was going to take the Kentucky job? Well, if you, if you ever look at his, his, con, his first contract, I'm his, I'm the signed witness on the contract. I was at his house like one in the morning signing, you know, as his witness to sign the contract. It was incredible because the entire time, we were all stuck. in his house because there's helicopters in Memphis flying over his house. That's how crazy basketball is in Memphis. There's nothing like it because they were trying it from the news station to trying to find, you know, usually in helicopters hovering over someone's house,

it's a hostage negotiation, not as a coach or OJ. It's not going, whether you're going to Kentucky or staying at Memphis for a basketball coach. But that's how intense it was. And so we were holed up in his house when he said he was officially going. I, you know, I ended up having, I stayed there until really late until the, you know, like I said, one something in the morning to be the witness of the signing of the contract. And but I say all that to say, I was excited. It was over like a seven-day, they couldn't hire anyone. I didn't even talk to the a minute.

I wasn't, there was no interview. I was gone. I just happened to get a call in the last, like say, hey man, the athletic director time just said he needed to see me. We had a great recruiting class coming in. John Wall, DeMarcus cousins, Eric Bledso, Zabia Henry, and we had all these guys just, and at some, and so I thought they hired their head coach,

and they were going to ask me to stay on as like the associate head coach, try to try to keep some of the recruits. And I knew I was going to be able to do that because all these guys were coming to play for Cala Perry. And, you know, that's what the cell was coach Cal. And so when I'm going to see the AD, the AD was like, you know, I mean, he just literally just handed, me the job. He just said, just take it. Like, because there was no, there was no talk of philosophy.

He just, in a, to not make a long story, a short story, he literally just said, do you want the job? Initially, I said, no, because I thought he was often when he said, do you want the job? I thought he meant to say, I want to be the associate. That's what, that's what I thought, but I want to be the assistant to stay with the next coach. Then when he told me he was going to be the head coach, you know, and, and, and that's, that literally is how he got job. I've told this to so many people. I could list a million people that were more deserving of me to be the coach at Memphis than I was. I wasn't deserved to be the head coach at Memphis, but Doug, in life, opportunities come at just different times, doors open when you kind of least expect it.

It was just a door open. And then, and I, again, I'm the first to say, I didn't, I didn't earn that job. Coaches were so much better and more deserving than me to be the head coach at Memphis. I understand I skipped a lot of steps. But, however, that door open and then it's on, in life, it's on you to take advantage of that opportunity. And I was there for seven years. And that seven years as a head coach allowed me to become the head coach in the ACC at Georgia Tech. Okay. I have two more for this.

This is part one. You're going to do a part two, whether you like it or not. Great. Okay. So here's the first thing. what's the magic to Calipari? What's the, because I do think he's a much better than perceptions coach,

the excellent basketball coach. But there is something to his personality, which has allowed him to be a great recruiter. You've lived it. You've felt it. What is it? What's the secret sauce, if you are? Yeah, no, you're spot on, Doug.

Number one is he's a very, very good basketball coach. And people always talk about his recruiting, obviously, because he's getting great. But he is a very, very good basketball coach, very, very good. You don't win the amount of wins that he does, has had in the level that he's won at without being a, I don't care if you have great players. Well, it's also, it's also challenging because, you know, he and I, and this might have been, it might have been, yes, it might have been the last year there or it might have been a couple years before. he got mad at me because at the start of the season, I said, well, that's how you beat Memphis. You got to slow him, you got to put him in the half court and make him think.

So he calls my boss and says, that's a racist comment. I was like, what? So then he calls me. Like, here's what I like about John is he will just call you. Like, he doesn't just go through a bunch of layers. And some of these guys, you know, they don't like you and they tell your bosses to not use you, but to your face, they'll be the greatest. Whereas John was just like, look, you can't say that.

And I was like, why? Because you're saying make them think, I have an all black team. You're saying my kids because they're black, they can't think. It's like, John, that's bullshit. I was like, look, I was like, are they easier or harder to coach because they're younger? He's like harder. I was like, yeah, because they haven't seen multiple defenses. They haven't seen, you know, all the different ball screen coverages.

They haven't seen it. The game hasn't slowed down for them yet. So you put something in the half court and you make them have to read the situation instead of just out there hoping. It's like self-scout, John, how would you? play. He's like, well, I play slow. He was like, well, no shit. That's all I said. So he was like, I understand. He's like, you just got to be very cautious about what you say because it could be perceived as like, John weren't a sport where 75% of the players are black. Like any comment could be construed as racist if you want to go. He's like, so we had a good back and forth about it.

But I actually think that yes, if you give me Anthony Davis and you give me Eric Bledsoe and you give me, you know, all, but they all come in with a. agendas, as you know, right? And they all come in thinking they're great players when they're great high school players. They're not great college players. And in a short period of time, you've got to make them into a great college player and a better teammate. That's actually harder on some levels than coaches that recruit inferior players, but in the past have had them for three or four years. Well, no, Doug, look, I mean, yes, you've got to have good talent. He's had great players. And look, part of your job is to get great players. That's part of the,

that's, there's nothing to be wrong. There's nothing wrong with that of getting the best players. I mean, we all want to get the best players. But he is a great coach. There's no denying that. And then secondly, with that, he's got, he's a master. And I, and I say this, if he wasn't a coach, pretend like he wasn't a coach, and he ran a business, he ran a pizza shop. He would be a multi, multi-millionaire being the owner of the pizza shop. His vision, vision in business and marketing is is is just off the chain and like I'm I can't tell how many times in recruiting we'd be going somewhere and he would say man see that corner spot there Josh that place isn't going to make it but then we take a left you see that's corner spot there if we start a

like a business in there or put a a restaurant there a pizza place it would just go his a vision to see him he'd be thinking about he'd be literally seeing things around the corner before they happen and he's got an incredible work ethic. Like he's, I mean, his energy, and I've told him this before. Like, I'm a high energy guy, Doug. Like I can go, but he is a guy that can be practicing, you know, work the players out, you know, go to a function, go out recruiting. Then on the way back, writing his book, you know, writing chapters. I mean, it's just, it's 24-7, 365 with this.

You know what you're fine? This is what you'll find. They're all like that. Yeah. Like if you go and you're, you know, you go backstage with a really successful artist. Their ability to dial up the energy when they get on stage is unmatched. You know? Like I met Kenny Chesney and Darius Rucker like, these dudes are tired.

Like Darius will go play 36 holes in golf. He has to do a meet and grouch. He's traveled all over the place, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden, like, you've got to go on stage and he can just hit the switch and he's got the energy. No, I was going to say you're, it's, it's all, it's anyone in any profession that's at the top of their profession, you're 100% right. It doesn't matter if you're a music in the music industry and entertainer, a coach, an athlete. All those people, men, men or women who are at the high, there's just something about that of innate ability to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, you. You know, they just, they have a real, they have a real drive, you know.

It's just, it's like an extra, it's like an extra gas tank. Yeah. That, that, that's not for everybody. That's not. No, no, it's not. Okay. Last one for part one. You get the Memphis job.

You mentioned Zavia Henry. Well, he went to Kansas where his mom went. We know where John Wall and Blood so went. And the Marcus Cousins. and to Marcus Cussons. So he took them all with him. What is that like to, I finally get a job, and it's a great job.

Now, you got to follow a guy who's been incredible, right? And we know what happened at UMass, trying to follow him, and it was hard at Memphis, and I'm sure when he leaves Kentucky, it'll be hard there as well. What is that like to be the head coach at Memphis, and you're trying to put together your first roster? This is before the transfer portal, and you're just kind of patching holes there.

What was that like for you? You know, Doug, one, you're right, Zadvi and Henry left. I begged his brother, I just needed to fill out a roster. I begged his brother, C.J. Henry, a baseball player who was drafted by the Yankees, will you stay on and play? I was begging him. He ended up not staying and playing, but I was begging. I had, I said on an email to, like, different, hey, anyone got available players.

Like, I got this, I got this one guy from Austin, Texas. He said me, you told me about this kid. He had some, like, Division III offers and Division II. I just took the kid sight unseen. They said he was a nice athlete. I took him sight unseen. And he ended up being, his name is DJ Stephens. He ended up being an unbelievable four-year player for me.

You know, and he's gotten some work in the NBA as well, too. And so it was, and look, and people. You never saw him play? Never saw him play. Just took him on a base on an email. I didn't have any. Who emailed you? He, Max, or Coach Max from the D1 Ambassadors, AAU team down in Texas.

Because I was just looking out, we didn't have enough to play. And so let me just say this, most of the guys, the entire recruiting class went to Kentucky. And I wasn't mad about that. Like I was telling people were like, aren't you upset? I says, no. The entire time, like when I was involved recruiting. with those guys. All I talked about was playing for John Calapary

and that it was the greatest thing to play for him, come play for him. I couldn't all of a sudden in the last minute for a whole year recruiting that way and then in the last minute, try and tell Zavi, Henry or John Wall, hey, come play for me now. You know what I mean?

Everything I said disregard that. It was not happening. I knew it. So, like, I wasn't mad and I, it was just kind of, and I just say, if you want to come to Memphis, come, but I get it. Like, man, I get if you're going to go play with Coach Cal.

They're like, see ya. And so the reality of it was we had some returning guys that were older, that were seniors. And I always tell people this. When you take over a job, the first year is not the hardest. Because you usually have some seniors left over from the previous coach. It's the second year when it's the hardest because that's when you're starting kind of from the bottom, starting over, you're young, you have your first recruiting class in,

you have a bunch of freshmen, and that's usually the hardest part when you take over job is the second year. For me, though, Doug, here I am taking over Memphis at 31. In that, following John Cala Perry, in that environment, where in a 50-mile radius, there is nothing bigger than Memphis basketball, you know, and everyone, thought I would, you know, I mean, most people think you're probably going to last a year or two. I mean, I mean, it's a monster job. I'm telling you that thing is a monster job and following him. I used to tell people the guy that follows Caliperi, you got to be, you got to be crazy.

Like, you got to be crazy to follow this guy. I ended up being the crazy guy because I was just at the right place, right time. How did you put together your staff? You know, I mean, look, I, you know, and I was a first time head coach. and you know I took my time on on on hiring but I you know I hired three guys three assistants at the time that I knew just through through the game of basketball and they all did a good job for me and they've all you know like I hired Jack Murphy who I who was with me when I was at Arizona I hired Glenn Cyprian who I knew who I knew sit through through the business and then I and then Willis Wilson who I knew from a long I used

to go to his camps back in the day. And so I hired all, I hired three guys. And then I hired Eric Sebastian, who's now with the Washington Wizards as my ops. And he was, and he was with me all seven years at, at, at Memphis. So, you know, and then throughout there, I lost guys to head coaching jobs. Jack Murphy had got a head coaching job. SIP ended up getting another great opportunity as an assistant at Texas A&M. Willis Wilson got, became a head coach again. So I had to keep hiring guys. And that's where I hired Damon Stoddemeier and I hired Jason Gardner, two guys that

from Arizona, they both end up getting head jobs. Head coaching jobs. I, you know, I hired a bunch of guys throughout. Luke Walton was worked for me for a short period of time during the lockout. So I had, you know, Aki Collins, who's now a top assistant

at Penn State. And I know, you know what's interesting about Damon, obviously Jason lost his gig and Luke is Luke and Damon especially, they made a lot of money. And the fear with those guys is always like, do you really want to do this? Or do you just want to collect a check and have insurance picked up and be a part of a team? How did you know that they really wanted to do it?

Well, you know, for Luke, Luke Walton, you know, I think the experience he had with me in college probably showed him saying, I don't probably don't want to be a college coach. You know, a lot of things. That was during a lockout, too. During the lockout, but I had him involved in recruiting, and he was great with the players, but he did not enjoy recruiting. And he was a good recruiter. He was good because he's good with people.

But it wasn't being on the phone all the time and going through all that. That wasn't something that was a passion for him. But he's a very good coach. I think from that time here, and I don't want to speak for Luke, but I think he felt, hey, I've been through that experience. I love the NBA. And we're Damon, who's done it, and Luke's done it. I thought Luke did a great job with the Lakers.

He's done a great job with the Kings. I mean, the Kings are young, and those guys are going to continue to get better. And I know the future's bright with Sacramento. I'm so happy that, because I think Sacramento is going to be a playoff team in the 22, in the 22 season. And then Damon Stoddemeier has done just an incredible job at Pacific. I mean, just awesome job. I mean, taking something over literally at, I mean, starting over at zero and how he's built that program and what he's done. He's been coach of the year in the league.

So, yes, both Luke Walton and Damon Stoddemeier made a lot of money. They don't need the coaching jobs, but they love coaching. They're great coaches. They're great with people. And they both are very good people. And so to see both their successes and, you know, heck, I, Damon Stademeyer should get the Trailblazers job. I mean, I don't see why Portland doesn't hire.

I think Damon's a really good coach. And he's played in Portland. He knows the NBA. The players love them. And I think he'd be a great, and again, I'm not speaking for Damon. I just think he'd be a great hire for the Trailblazers. All right.

So here's what I need for part two, okay? I need, we need to discuss your Memphis, Georgia Tech, the best recruiting stories, including your point guard last year who I love, the hair and the future, okay? So you got a little time to prep for it and we'll do it. I really appreciate your time. You've been more than generous. And thanks so much for doing. Doug, I really appreciate it.

You know, I think about you and your family and I'm always, always happy. And I always said this. and you have a great gig at what you do and you're very good at what you do. I think you'd be a good coach if you ever, I mean, you know basketball, whether you'd ever really wanted to get to coach, and you and I've had some conversations offline about you wanting to be a coach or not. Again, I don't want to speak for you, but I do know your love and passion for the game, and I think you'd be a great coach if you ever decided I want to go into that avenue.

I appreciate it. You've never wanted to hire me, but I do appreciate it. You have a better gig than you want to be my assistant, I promise you. I just like to send it. Thanks, Doug. That's pretty fun, wasn't it? Okay, you're going to wait. Part two is amazing.

We started to get into being a head coach, what it was like at Memphis. We started to talk about putting a team together, what he learned as a head coach, and then moving on and getting the Georgia tech job, how it all went down and what all of this has been like putting together a team that won the ACC tournament, you know, battling through probation. all the all the different stuff we'll get to all that upcoming reminder the dog gotlebe show is daily three to six eastern 12 3 pacific by the way um there's an archive of amazing all balls not that this hasn't been good but just looking through the catalog of them they're really really really good in the meantime thanks so much for listening i'm dug gotlead download subscribe rate right under review i i think i might actually make a little more money if you write a review that's cool this is all

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