The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Pt. 2 Former Hofstra Star Charles Jenkins on NBA Rookie Year, Steph Curry Bond, Monta Ellis Trade, Overseas Life

Episode Date: August 5, 2021

Doug sits down for part 2 of his interview with former Hofstra star Charles Jenkins to discuss his rookie year with the Warriors, his first interactions with a rookie Steph Curry, how he stayed ready despite limited action, how the unexpected Monta Ellis trade opened up playing time led to huge PT, and how his surprising trade to Philly taught him a hard lesson about NBA reality, Then, he discusses the transition to playing overseas, his tales from life on and off the court during a successful career in Serbia, Italy, Greece and Spain, and what it was like playing during extreme COVID lockdown. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This is All Ball. Quick reminder, Doug Gowlip Show Daily, 3 to 16th from Charlton, Pacific. Box Sports Radio, Iheart Radio. Iheart Radio app. Okay. This is part two of our Charles Jenkins interview. And this is where

oh, it gets good. Don't get me wrong. His personal story, if you want to hear that, part one. Amazing. It's in our catalog. It's two episodes ago where we talk about the tragic death of his brother, his move from Brooklyn to Queens, how he became a star at Hofstra.

But now he's drafted in the NBA. He's drafted the Golden State Warriors, and he's playing with a young Steph Curry who's oft injured and a young Monta Ellis. We'll have another pod for the Olympic stuff. want to get to this one. This is my sit down with Charles Jenkins. Again, played for Olympiacos last year, looking for a team and his thoughts on, on

Steph Curry and an amazing story, a couple of amazing stories about Steph as a teammate and what he was like in high school. Take a listen. So the Warriors take it. Right? The Warriors take you. And now they, they have Monta and they have Steph, right? but but mark jackson's their coach

so you get you get to Oakland what do you remember about that first trip out to Oakland I mean there was a lockout so it was I remember like fine like saying finally like of course once it happened okay I got drafted we went out to Oakland for like the little press conference and then they were saying like you know after today we can't

we can't contact you guys so that was a long time I didn't get back out there until December And I remember saying like I finally like this is this is starting to become real because now I'm here every day. I'm meeting, you know, coaches and players. And I'm seeing, you know, free agents come in and work out. So I just remember being nervous, of course, seeing Monte, Monty have like a personality that you got to kind of get used to, really standoffish if you don't know you. But I do remember Derell Wright. So I went to summer school with Dorel.

He went to summer school in New York and he remembered me. So the moment I got there, he knew that I was on the team. Someone gave my phone number and we were texting the entire time. So once I was around him, I remember feeling a lot more comfortable because it was at least one face that I knew. Everyone else I never met before. Yeah. That's what's weird. Okay, so what did you do during the lockout?

It just worked out, stay home. Yeah, that was about it. I worked out. And I didn't have any money, so I spent a lot of that time, you know, traveling around Long Island speaking at high schools and camps for like $50. Because you didn't get any money because you guys were all locked out, even though you were drafted. Yeah, I didn't get anything, no.

So now it's December. You show up at camp, right? It's your first camp. You've been working out. The Warriors are super, super young at the time, right? Like Richard Jefferson was the old head on the team. He was like, he wasn't there. Oh, he wasn't there?

No, not yet. He was, when I got there, it was, it was, it was, um, Steph. David, David Lee. Steph, Jeremy Lynn, David Lee, Montee Ellis, Clay Thompson, Dorel Wright, Dominique. McGuire, Jeremy Tyler, Andres Bidron,

Brandon Rush. Yeah, that's who was there in the beginning. Okay, so you show up and what was your... Lou Amundsen, good guy, really good guy. Lou Amundsen is a good guy, UNLV, good guy, good hair, great athlete. What was your opinion

of Steph before you got there? Like, you can remember, like, what did you think, like Steph Curry. What did you think of them before you got there? Man, so I went to five-star camp when I was in high school and Steph was on my team. So when I got there, I remember thinking like, like, man, this is the same dude

that, like, we played together in high school, but camp, I grew with teammates. And I remember there was like, it was like a, I had like a level of uncertainty. Like, should I just walk up to him and like bring it up? Like, yeah, do you remember? I was like so hesitant about it, even though Steph is an amazing guy, like very welcome and personality from the first day I met him.

And he was actually the first one like, yo, you remember we were teammates in five star? And I was, damn, like, that's crazy. He remember that because, you know, he just went on like, he was an amazing college player. He, you know, got all this newfound attention. So when that was the first thing he said when I met him, I was like, relieved, like, damn, this is a normal guy. He's super cool and I was able to talk to him. At that time, he was dealing with a lot of ankle injuries.

Yeah. He had problems staying healthy. So I just remember his work ethic, of course. Of course, he stayed after he worked in his game. He shot a lot of shots and things like that. But just how discipline he was as far as like taking care of his body, icing all the time. Every time at the practice, it was always like an ice bucket in front of his locker. And how open it was to have a conversation with him.

Like there was times I would be in a room with him and I would be so like, hesitant to say something. And he would be the one like, you know, like sharing things or like bringing like starting conversations with me and I ended up, you know, getting really, really cool with him when I was there. Wait, wait, wait, taking back to the five star. Was he good at five star? Yeah, he was good. He wanted to go to Virginia Tech. I remember that. I remember that's the school he wanted to go to. Yeah, because his dad played there. And he always had like, yeah, like, he had like Virginia Tech short, he was for playing. But yeah. And yeah. And.

And I didn't know who he was when our teams was put together, but he was doing a lot, he was a lot different from a lot of guys out there. He was shooting it, of course, well from three. He was always, like, really crafty with, like, his layups and things like that. He was definitely, he didn't have, like, that big, big name like everyone else had at camp, but you would definitely see the difference in skill level. Okay, but would you, if I were to tell you, this dude is going to be a two-time, MVP of the NBA?

At that point in time, what would you say? At that time, probably not. But it had nothing to do with him. It had nothing. It had more to do with the hype that a lot of other players had. Oh, that's interesting. Like it was certain, like, it was certain names that you heard all the time that when you saw them, it was like you had this amazing amount of, like, expectations of what you were going

to see. Steph at that time, he didn't have that big, like, that big. big, big name, like, oh, where to me, this is what I used to say. If there was someone that they called them by their full name all the time, they were like a really, really good player. I like that. That's a good one. He wasn't like that, like, at the time, but you could definitely see the difference in

skill level. Okay, so then what was when you show up your, like, your first couple of practices with the Warriors, like, was it obvious that he had it in him? because remember this is when David Lee was still the guy in that team, right? And then there was, and then, you know, there's him and Montae. And they weren't, you guys weren't killing fools. Like what was, what was it like when you were, you guys have been obviously out for a while with the lockout? But what was it like in terms of the competitiveness and practice and who was actually better?

I mean, you could definitely see because when he was, like, healthy, there was a, there was like a different feel around. like the team, you know, like when he was like running things. Of course he was, he wasn't as like offensively aggressive as he is now, but he was always making plays, whether it was like, you know, a really good pass or setting up someone that setting up someone to get in like a better position to score on the way he saw the floor, you know, the pace was a lot faster when he, when he was healthy at that time. So you can notice.

And in practice, I mean, he was, he played free, super crafty, taking really good shots, making tough shots. It wasn't, it looked normal. So to me, like the guy that like, like, make a shot or do something really, like, really amazing, but his reaction isn't anything is always like someone I'm like, man, this is someone you got to look out for. Because as, as crazy as everyone's going, if he's super relax. that means that he he do this all the time. And it was a lot of times where he made like really big plays in practice or like, you know,

broke someone down and scored. But he didn't react. And I'll be thinking like, man, this dude is like, this dude's, this dude's good. Like he's, he's as good as advertised. And with the games where he didn't play, you could also feel like a major like drop between the team. Of course, we have Monty who you can give the ball and he can probably win a game with you by himself. You had David Lee as well who can get you 10 and 10 on his absolute worst night. We had those guys.

But when Steph was playing, it was a different pace that everyone else played at as well. Yeah, it's fascinating. Okay, so what about you? Like, how did you, how was your, because you didn't play much early on, right? And it's almost like Hofstra kind of 2.0, right? where you're sitting there learning. What was that like? What was the existence like for you?

I mean, I was trying to find my niche, really. Coach Jack, I used to always joke with Coach Jackson and tell him, like, you know, whenever you need me in the game, put me in. I don't care if it's one second, you know, I'm going to try to be out there for the best I can be for that one second. And a lot of times he did that, and he didn't know how much it meant to me.

Of course, I knew that I was. wasn't, you know, going in there as like a top pick up, a top priority to be on the floor and help the team. I knew I had to be patient. Of course, I'm saying it now, and it sounds like I was just super waiting my turn, but there was a lot of, you know, frustration that I experienced, wanting to be out there, getting out there, and being so worried about making mistakes and coming right out or how long I'm going to be out there. So I spent a lot of that time, honestly, questioning myself, because I was in the gym. I was working on my game. But the opportunity for a short amount of my rookie year, it seemed like it would never come. The first game of the season, I remember being super hype,

like, man, I'm about to be going at it with Chris Paul. I had this amazing amount of confidence. And then 12 minutes of an NBA quarter with media timeouts happened. And I'm like, man, I never sat a whole quarter before, nothing. And then the second quarter comes. And then the second quarter comes. the same thing happened. And the third quarter came, the same thing happened. And then about like maybe like two minutes and change, the game was over. Chris Paul was on the clip, Bruce was he played amazing. And then I got my name called.

And I'm like, man, this is, this is going to be, you know, with the rookie ears like, it's going to be pretty tough. And I remember, like, experiencing that and then a wave of games of not playing at all and dealing with it mentally. So a lot of that time I spent it like trying to be as positive as I can, but also like experience and everything as well and being able to get through it. No, it's one of those, it's one of those things where you know, you'd learn what it's like to be a profession, right? And everybody says like, hey, I'm a, I'm a stay ready. Be ready, stay ready. I'm ready. But then you're sitting over there, you're like, dude, am I ever going to get in? Yeah.

When you do, and then when you do, like, it's like you said like, who's ever sat for, this is a true story. Okay. So I got my, I got my start really at ESPN doing the draft. Okay. This is in 2003. It's the LeBron draft. Okay.

But I had done a couple of things for them, but I was still playing overseas. And I, in order to lock in the draft thing. I had to meet this guy named John Martin. And John Martin, you couldn't get him on the phone because he was doing the games, the playoff games and the NBA finals. And I don't know if he had a cell phone or if I didn't have a cell phone at the time. But again, yeah, it's 2003. Like, I don't think I had a cell phone. So I got a chance to audition for a movie role.

Spike Lee's brother was doing some movie. And they did auditions in New York. And they flew me in. and I was supposed to be like this white cocky point card, which is perfect for me. So I go do the audition. Then I go to the NBA finals that night. And it was game, I think it was game six, maybe game five. And if you remember those finals, this was the nets against the spurs.

So I go to East Rutherford. And all I had to do was meet this guy. And I go down before the game. I introduced myself. He's like, oh, I heard of you. And then basically like, I got the draft gig because he's like, you know all these players. Like I know all of them. I just played overseas in Russia and France against some of these dudes.

And he's like, all right, we'll be here in a week or whatever, we'll set up travel. Like that's how anyway. But I stay and I watch the game. And the game that I watched, Steve Kerr didn't play the entire first half, right? And Tony Parker is a starting point guard for the San Antonio Spurs. And Jason Kidd is the point guard for the Nets. And Jason Kidd is kicking his ass the whole series. and to start the second half, like at half time,

Steve Kerr and Steve Smith come running out of the locker room before anybody else gets out there and they're like getting shots up. Well, Steve Kerr didn't get in until the end of the third quarter. And then he played, he might have played the whole fourth quarter. He hit like three, three. And I tell people to this day, like, do you know how hard that is to sit there for an hour and a half or two hours and not get in?

And then, hey, I want you to get in. I want you to guard a Hall of Fame point guard. And if you get the ball in your open, you need to shoot it and make it. Like that's a, that is way harder than anything else in basketball. Because like, look, if you're a guy and you get 20 shots, like, all right, you get, you can lace one up in the fourth quarter. Like, you've taken 20 game shots. You're right.

To be a guy who sits for an hour and a half like that. So let's go back. Like, what is that like after a game? Did you go get another workout after the game? Were you doing the early workouts? Like, what were you like in terms of your game day as you're going through all these emotions of being in the NBA but not getting consistent burn?

Yeah, I used to, well, they had this thing where if you didn't play 20 minutes that you had to run on a treadmill, that was a guarantee. That that's what you had to do. The treadmill was the worst. Of course, I had, I was a part of the 330 bus. Now there's a lot of dudes in the league that know about the 330 bus. 30 buses, the guys that don't play, but that's the chance that you have maybe like a hour

to get a really good workout in before the game. So I would do that and I would lift. So there was, in the beginning, you couldn't tell me that I wasn't in the game. So mentally I was like, you know, when they gave this, the scout reports, I would read them. Yep, this person does this.

When I get in the game, this is what I have to do. And then when there's a, a long period of time where you don't, you're not playing, you get discouraged. But at the same time, you have to go to work. You have to perform at work. Whether it's, you know, playing one-on-one, two-on-two, you know, running a treadmill, lifting. There's a lot of, like, things that you have to do there if you didn't play.

So I had my own, you know, regiment where I would come in early on for walkthrough and I would shoot. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clipper Taylor the Ford.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health. purpose and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations,

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Learn the Hardway. Open your free, our heart radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Then I will go home, eat, take an hour and a half nap, and then make my way to the gym for a 3.30 workout. The game is at 7. I just shot from 3.30 to 4.30 is still time. And I would, like, you know, get a lift, do some core. Take a shower and then get ready for the game.

Of course, I already got my sweat. I worked out already, and maybe I shot the ball well in workouts. And I feel confident that I'm going to play. and there was some nights where with all of that, all of that, I still didn't get in. So, I mean, I'm not going to lie, it was pretty discouraging to a point.

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So, but at the end of the year, I think Steph was hurt and you got to play a ton, didn't you? Yeah, he got hurt. He has the final game he played was in Sacramento. He sprained his ankle, really bad. we actually like walk i think we actually like held them off the court or something what what's

what's that like when you're helping a guy out of the court who you like who's a great player but all of a sudden now like you're like well hell i'm gonna play a bunch man i honestly didn't know i honestly didn't think that because we just got nate robinson at that time we got nate robinson uh around that time and Nate had a really good game against the heat really good game we actually we ended up winning that game and um so I was like our Nate's here Nate got a lot of experience he had like you know outgoing personality you know a lot of people like him he's hard not to like Nate and I was like all right this now I'm just going to be sitting behind Nate it was Nate and Is Smith so I didn't think that it was

going to happen and to be completely honest we played we were getting ready to play the Sacramento Kings. Oh, second mile. Okay, yeah. And the day before, Coach Jackson said to me that he said, you know, you've been here, we all like you, we all appreciate your work, but I think you should go down to Santa Cruz

to, you know, get some game reps. Like, you've been here, you're working now, but, you know, two-on-two, one-on-one is not the same as playing the actual game. So tomorrow, after the game, we're going to send you down to Santa Cruz. to play a couple games in the D-League and then go bring you back up. And I was like, all right.

In my mind, I'm like, damn, result. Oh, they're sitting down. I don't know what's going to happen from here. But we play the Kings. Monta Ellis is getting dressed. And Dominic Aguarez says to him, I don't think you should get dressed. He said, and he was like, why?

He said, well, I just say your name at the bottom of the story. screen and I don't know what it said, but when it, when it flashed back again, we go all read it at the same time. The bottom of the screen that says, Golden State Warriors traded Monta Ellis to the Milwaukee Bucks for Richard Jefferson and Andrew Bogget. Trader Monta Ellis and Epe Udo for Andrew Bogot and Richard Jefferson. And they opened the door and the media swarmed around Monta. Epe Udo came back to his locker.

He was on the court working out and he looked at his phone. they told him the news and he was like what and then they all like went in the back talk and they came out and they street closed and they walked up the door so now we're playing with two less guys that that play and I got a chance to play that night and I played well I think I had 15 points that night and then step was already out he wasn't healthy at that time but then I got the opportunity to play a lot from from that from that night on. Well, you killed it against Portland.

Yeah. Right after that deal. Killed it. And then late in the year, you were putting up numbers. Was there, was there a moment where you were like, okay, I can do this? Because it's very reasonable to, like, what you're walking is through, it's very reasonable to question yourself. You know, like, damn, my ever, maybe this, like, they're sending me down.

They already acquired Nate Robinson. Like, he's a scoring one. he's got he's got a rep i'm a scoring one like come on was there a moment where that flip we're like wait i can i can do this i'm i'm straight i'll stay here for a long time yeah um when i started to get like uh validation from step meant a lot to me at that time so whenever i was complimented on how i played or any form of advice i got from him it meant way more than he would ever know. So when I would constantly get like, you know, encouraged by him or he would say like good game or I like when you did this or he would react to like things that happen. It meant the

world to me. Honestly, it meant a lot. So when he would do that and I, and I also would go to bed the night before knowing that I will play the next day. Yeah. It felt like, all right, I can do this. Like this is like, of course, I always think about, you know, there was a time where I wasn't, me playing in the NBA wasn't even a thought. It was a time of my life where I was, I just wanted to be on a team. So the fact that I was there and I was having an opportunity to play and I was playing pretty well,

I was in my mind, I was like, all right, like, yeah, maybe I am going to be here for a while. Maybe I am going to buy my mom a house. But why was it, why stack, right? Like he's, you guys are about the same age. and but why why why was it staff's validation that was different than others because because he was so he was he was really supportive from the moment I met him and I remember like watching him on TV when he got the Davidson and like him playing well and you know him going to NBA and having

some some classes of like really good games and I just knew how good he was and he was like a that I was around all the time. I knew he was limited because of his injury. But as, you know, every time I got a chance to, like, talk to him, it was always like an open conversation. Him and Dorel, right, were, like, two guys that I really, really cared about what they, their opinion on me of me. Dorel, to this day, I've always tell him how appreciative I am of him. But when Steph used to say things to me, then I really, like, it really meant a lot. to me. You get ready for your second year. Yeah. And now at the end of the first year, you'd show that you could play, right? So I'm sure your expectations are, hey, in year two,

now I'm going to be in the rotation. What happened? Well, you know, they have the exit meetings at the end of the year. So you have one with the coach, and then you have one with the GM. It was Bob Myers. So I meet with Coach Jackson, and it's like a conversation with your friend. It's like, yeah, man, you know, this is what you need to work on. You know, I'm proud of, you know, how you play for us this year, you know. Of course, you got to work this summer. You got to, you know, do XYZ and, you know, I think you'll be with us because I had up until August to have my contract guarantee for the next year. So I go on with Bob Myers and his conversation is a little different. It's like, yeah, you played okay. You know,

we didn't win. You'll have a chance to be part of this team. But you got to lead, you have to play well in Summer League and we'll see how the draft goes. Of course, Damien Lillard hearing a lot about Dame. The Warriors had the seventh pick at the time. And I remember I was with Chris Wright. Chris Wright is one of my good friends till this day. And Chris Wright was on the Warriors as well. He had a really good final game for them. So it was like like, you know, both of us should be back to next year. Now talking to him, he was saying like, yeah, my agent is telling me that depending on who they pick, one of us is out. He was like, if they pick a small forward, then I'm out.

And if they pick a point guard, then you out. And I'm like, really? And I remember, like, working out the day of the draft. And I was like in my head like, man, like, yo, if they take Damien Luther, like, they're not going to need me because that's going to be back like at 100% next year. And me and my mom watched the draft. together, Portland took dame. And then the worry, the word, yeah, I was, yes.

It felt like I got drafted all over again. Yeah, the worries took Harrison Barnes. So we ended up, they ended up cutting Chris when we got the Summer League. So once this happened, Harrison Barnes, Jemond, Festus Zilli get there. We're all putting our Summer League team together. I'm kind of like running things.

Clay was with Team USA. I'm like telling guys how things is ran around here. This is how it goes out. need to do this blah but i'm feeling like really good because i'm like all right now i know i have a chance to be on a team next year and i have a chance if i play well a summer league to prove that i could be like a good backup guard or something i get to summer league and bob myr's call me he said i just want to let you know that you know everything you spoke about is still the same but we're bringing in the veteran guard jared jack and in my head i'm like

oh here we go like now like there's somebody else that i'm going to have to compete with like for a job and like, you know, but it's under God that's like more experience. So there's a chance that I'm not going to, there's going to be some nights I might not play again. And the funny thing is I met, I met Jack. Jack came down to some league to be around the team. He was like the best dude, man, like great personality, like super funny. He was welcoming. And when he came to Bay, you know, he'd be come to my house.

We would go out to dinner and talk. So we developed like a friendship. But like in the league, like when someone plays your position, of course you. If you have a good relationship, we have a good relationship. with them, you want to see them do well. But you know in the league, like, your opportunity is what's going to keep you there. So it was kind of like, man, this is a great dude. He's a great experienced player.

But I'm like, man, I want his spot. Like, I want the opportunity he's going to have. And it was down to like the last week before my contract would be guaranteed. And Steph, which I, of course, I will praise him forever. He reached out to Bob Myers the week before my contract had to be, guaranteed and he asked him to fly me to Charlotte. So I flew to Charlotte and I worked out with Steph, Tony Rotten, Seth, and Mike Conley. And we worked out for three days.

And when I got back to the bay from that workout, my contract was guaranteed for the next year. And I remember telling Steph, like, yeah, I found that if I'm on a team still tomorrow. And he was like, find out. He's like, don't worry about that. Like, you're good. Like, you're going to be with us. Don't worry. And the next day it happened.

So I was happy that I had a job at first. Like, all right, cool. I know I'm on the team for sure. My contract's guaranteed for the whole year. Nothing can happen. I'm going to be involved. But the beginning of the season, we played Phoenix the first game. And Coach Jackson had this paper where he was like giving out the roles on the team.

And it was like, Steph, I need you to be, you know, our leader, this, that, Clay, I need you to be this. David, David Lee, I need you to be that. And at the end, it was me, Kent Baysmore and Jeremy and Jeremy, title. And basically what our roles was was to stay ready. And I'm like, ah, there we go. Like another year of staying ready. That should be your nickname, right? You should your nickname to be stay ready.

Charles Dickens. Charles, and they just know that stay, stay ready. What was, what was Draymond like at this time? Man, Draymond had the most confidence I've probably ever seen. He was a rookie, but it was probably his personality is the same as it is today. He was super, like, aggressive. He was loud, a ton of confidence. He always, like, said, spoke things into existence for himself.

Man, he was the same, the same as he is now. It's crazy. Crazy. Okay. What, you, they trade you around the trade deadline. to Philly. Yep. What was that conversation

in feeling like? I mean, it was, it was, it was tough for me, man, I was crying. I'm not going to lie. There was a, the day,

like the day before, they had like a media guy. I don't know if his name is Rusty or Dusty. I can't remember him. It's something like that. He walked him to me and he said, where do you think you're going to get traded to on Friday? And I had no idea.

He's like, I'm like, what? He said, you don't know? He's like, yeah, there's some tax thing where you, you, Ken Bezmore or Jeremy Tyler's going to get traded. It's going to happen Friday. And I'm like, what? Like, puzzled. And the Friday come and they say the trade deadline's at 12.

So I'm like, all right, if I can make it to 12 and nobody's saying anything, I guess I'm something. on the Warriors. So 12 o'clock come, nobody said anything to me. Probably about one, they called me into this room. Bob Myers was in there, Mark Jackson. We all sat right in front of each other. And Mark Jackson was like, you know, there were some teams that asked about you and we wanted to do the best that we can to put you in a position where you can help a team. Now in my head, I'm like, man, no way. Are you kidding me? And by my mom. Myers is like, yeah, we traded you to Philadelphia.

Someone will contact you. And then, like, thank you for the opportunity. You're a good guy. You know, you know, everyone likes you around here, you know, but this is a part of the business, blah, blah, blah. And I walked out the locker room and that's the first person standing in. He said, what happened? I said, man, they just traded me to Philly.

He was like, no way. Shut up. I'm like, yeah, bro. Like, I got to leave. So I, like, went to the car. And Jeremy Tyler was in the car No, Jeremy Tyler was walking out like another room And he said, he said, they traded you two?

And I said, yeah, he was like, I said, where are you going? He was like Atlanta. And then like we got in the car, we both fall like boo-hoo and this shit in the car crying. We were home. I just called my family or whatever, tell him that I'll be in Philadelphia.

I was there the next night. what what amount of leaving it was because like when you think of the emotions of leaving it was it because they drafted you and gave up on you was it because you felt like there was something special was it the relationships there like what what do you think it was that made you so emotionally attached to the word it was it was just the direction I saw the team going in I was of course I had the relationship there. I was a lot more comfortable. I feel like I've worked a lot to get as comfortable as I was. And now the fact that I had to go somewhere else was like, man, I'm about to start all over again.

But it was, coach Jackson was really like focused, locked in without that second season. We're going to be a playoff team this year. And there was also like an East Coast road trip where I played a lot. And I was like playing pretty well. So I really thought I was going to. to be a part of things and then when it happened I was so mad because I'm like man like I really wanted to be there of course I didn't know I didn't see like what what they becomes up until now but I wanted to be a part of the beginning you know like whether I was on the team the next season or not I know only had a two to two year deal I wanted to be a part of you know however that year finished that summer

That summer, how did you, how did you end up playing, what did you play in Serbia? Yeah. Well, I was in Philadelphia with Jeremy Pargo. And Jeremy Pargo played in Cleveland earlier that year. And he played really well. Jeremy Pargo to me is an NBA player. But he, for some reason, he didn't get the opportunity

that he deserved. And the entire time, because we both were living in the hotel, living in the hotel when we played in philly we were always talk about europe he would say like you know like you know my brother been a journey man he played on a different team almost every year you know but it's that comes you got to be a you got to be built different to to have that kind of mindset and i was thinking like man i could barely get through staying ready i don't know how you could possibly play on different teams and live with that level of uncertainty every day and he was telling me like you know you know europe you know you can make a lot of money in europe you're

have an opportunity to play. You know, he was telling me, like, all these, like, good things about Europe. And I was like, man, that don't sound like a bad idea. And I wasn't when I, after my season with the Sixers, I wasn't getting, like, you know, calls from teams or anything. So Europe was a option for me. And my agent didn't know that. And I called to him and I said, man, I don't want you to, like, if you get, like,

an offer from a European team, like, I don't want you to be hesitant to tell me. about it. And when I said that, Maccabi offered me first in Tel Aviv Israel. Yeah. And I turned it down because it was too early. And I was still trying to hold out seeing if I would get any type of NBA offer. And then like around like late July, my agent called me. He sent me like a bunch of videos from the Serbian team and told me that they'll be planning EuroLeague. And I contacted Jeremy Pargo. We spoke about it. He found out that they were in Jury League. And he was like, man, this is an amazing opportunity for you to, like, get a reputation in Europe.

If you go here and I was like, well, I'll give it a try. I was like, am I going to play? He was like, you're American. You have to play. Or they will cut you. And I was like, all right. At least I don't have to worry about, like, not playing. I got to speak with DeMarcus Nelson on the phone.

He played. He was returning there. We had a good conversation. He shared his NBA experience with the, Warriors and what happened when he got to Chicago. And I felt good enough to give it a try. So what was your first trip to serve you like? Man, I went to go home the minute I landed.

I just met a bunch of people that I didn't know. There was the Cyrillic writing on a lot of things in the airport. So I didn't really know what things said. And they put me in like this hotel that was like, in like the corner so I really couldn't I really couldn't do anything but like go to my room and wait for this guy to pick us up and take us to practice correct twice a day every day right yeah so I was I was in the plus I didn't know about that the the the plugs was different for my hours so I couldn't charge my phone so you've never been overseas no I never been

So you've never been overseas. You're like 24 years old or whatever. 23 years old. You play the NBA and like you're in Serbia, which like the reality is like Serbia and Croatia are really nice, especially when you got there. Yeah. But you don't you don't have any in comparison to where you've been lit,

like NBA hotels, NBA lifestyle like this shit is different. Complete opposite. Yeah. And then you get there and they start doing that weird stretch. stuff that they do, right, with the wrists and the knees. Yeah, they do. And you're just looking like, what is that? Wait, I was just in the NBA.

Yeah. And now I'm with these dudes. That's exactly how I felt. I think it was my first, because we got there at night time to training camp. So we had to drive three hours to the mountains where the team was, you know, meet the team, meet the coach. And then, you know, watch one practice and then the next morning we practiced. So my first full day, I was like, man, this is crazy. because so that you lift first and then you shoot no you lift first and then you condition

then you shoot and then practice is over that's the morning practice and then at night it's just all out five on three on three five but it's super intense like if you're a guard you got to pick up full court yeah if not the coach is like yelling at you is like It was like that. And in my head, I'm like, you know, what the, yo, what did I get myself into? Like, we were running so much. It felt like college again. And we would run for things like, we would run for like someone's behavior or someone

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a certain way while I was in the NBA, so I didn't expect it. Right. But when I got there, that's what it was. The coach was like extremely tough. He was on us about everything. He cared about your personal life and the decisions you made because he related everything to the game and you not being focused. I was like, man, this is way different than what I expect. And also waiting to four o'clock, which is 10 o'clock in New York, for my family to, you know, start, you know, getting

ready for working things so I could talk to them. So all of that was like super, super like different for me. Okay, so you, when did you feel like you below? Like you, like, all right, I can do this. Once the season started, we had a, like an Asiatic League game. And I played pretty well. And then coach put in a couple like isolation plays from me. back then and I was like all right like this fell the the basketball thing I never felt like I

didn't belong but I just think my opportunity I had to prove myself because that was my first time in Europe but the different thing about it was having your absolute best game in Europe and then coming home and your family don't even know that y'all just played because they're at work or they're only way to work while you were like you know on the floor getting ready for a game So that was like the hardest thing I had to do at that time. Did you now, when did you start to? Because like you, you've been on the same team three different times, right? Yeah.

So, but they, like in terms of lifestyle, when did you move out of the hotel? Did you move out of the hotel? They get you a, when did you get an apartment? Yeah. They, so there was like, the team pays for your apartment. And they gave you a car. So once we got back from training camp, we were in training camp for eight days. And then I think I was in a hotel for probably like three more nights.

And they were like, you know, we're going to bring you. We're going to show you, you know, three apartments. You let us know what you think. If you don't like them, we'll show you three more. And I'm like, man, I need to get out of the hotel and just like, you know, find my spot where I'm going to live. So out of the three, I just picked the best one. And I was alone. I didn't have like a wife or kids.

Like some other dudes had that needed more things in an apartment. So I was just like, all right, this is cool. It's a one-bedroom. If my family come, they could sleep in this other little small room, let me get this one. And I think that was like right before the season started, maybe in like September. And then what did you eat? I mean, we were gone for a lot of that. So a lot of the beginning of the season, we played a lot of like, they call them friendly games.

Yeah, we call them exhibition games. So we were like together as a team. So we ate just whatever the coach wanted us to eat, honestly. he wanted everybody to be super, super focused and in his shape. So the strength coach always had like meal plans for us. And then when I got back, I had like a team, like an oldest Serbian woman. She was my cook for three years. Oh, you see she cooked for you? That's right.

I like that's a great plan. The cost of living there is really like, it's really low. So this woman, I paid her $250 and month and she cooked for me five days a week, lunch and dinner. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That would never happen anywhere in the world. Okay, so what was the best thing she made?

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Okay, so you played in Russia, you played in Italy, and you played in Greece as well as Serbia. I played in Russia, so I played, it was Euro great, and we actually won the league that year. But the Russia, the stories off the quarter, even better than the story is kind of like on the court. One memory of playing in Russia.

Basketball-wise or like on... Whatever you want. When I say Russia, first thing it comes to your mind. Oh, just cold people. man. Yeah, everybody wears gray or black. They all seem,

they all wear in the winter. They all, everything is like covered up. They kind of shuffle around. There's no lines anywhere. People just push kind of towards the front, right? Everybody smokes.

I just think, I just think about, I mean, I played in Russia for two years. So the beginning was really, really different. So Serbia is kind of like

college, like a college town. Like everyone's involved in the games. They really, really care whether you win or lose. You know, you might get messages after the game. Like, you know, if you didn't play well, if you didn't cover the spread for whoever. It's really intense.

It's a lot of pressure there. Now, in Russia, basketball is in the number one sport. So not only do the country as a whole not care that much about basketball, you know, the people, there's a lot of people that don't care. So, like, after games, like, I remember, like, when I was in Serbia, if I didn't play well, I would turn my phone on. You know, let a couple of days go by and then, you know, start, you know, back, you know, using my phone again just to not see what people were saying. But, like, in Russia, whether you had your best game or your worst game, nobody cares. No one cares at all.

It's, like, super, like, it was super cold, of course. My teammates, there was a lot of them. We won the Russian championship. So they're like, so we win the championship. They're like, we come home and like the team was basically stacked and put together to win the championship because Seth's got won it every year before that. Yeah. This is this is 2001. And what I remember is we had like a victory parade around the city.

And like we're on the back of some like flatbed. And they're like beeping the horn and yelling and stuff and playing music in Russia. And people are like coming out there about me and like, we don't know who you are or what you're doing here. But, you know, it's fine. It's like 10 in the morning, and we don't care if your champions do receive. I think we don't. We don't. Okay.

One memory of playing in Italy. That was the first time my dad got on a flight to come see me play. Who you play at? We played the Cup weekend in Milan. you know that that midway the midway cup you play in February yep yep so we host we were hosting it in Milan and my mom and my dad came at the same time and we played we ended up winning a cup in front of it so it was fun

that was amazing for me what's what's that feeling like you know considering your dad he was working three jobs when you went to Hofstra and now all of a sudden you're living in Milan playing professional basketball winning a cup like what But have you ever had a conversation about all that you've been able to accomplish? Not really. I mean, honestly, I only talk about it. Like, when I have, like, an interview with someone to ask me about it.

I never really, of course, I think about it, but I don't really say much about it. I just kind of, like, reminisce about it when I get a chance to. At that time, that was, like, the first time I made some really, really good money. That was my first, like, really, really, you know, good contract in Milan. So I had a lot of new responsibility that I enjoyed. You know, I enjoy taking my parents to dinner and no one, you know, reaching for their car when the bill was there. Yeah, that's a great. That's a pretty cool one, right?

Like, no one I got this. Yeah, I enjoyed putting my dad in first class and my mom and, like, first class all the way here. So it was like, just like understand. And also like when my mom, you know, when you're young, you think your parents have all the money in the world. You want them to buy you things. You know, and the older you get, you understand that it's not like that. And the reason they were out at work, a lot was to provide for you. So getting older and making, you know, a significant amount of money.

And I was able to, you know, have conversations with my mom and ask me, do you need any money? Or for her to text me and my mom is big pride, a big time pride person. She would rather, I don't know, hustle than to ask anyone for money. So when I was able to have that, like, that was around a time where if my mom asked me for money, I could give it to her and it would be within my budget and it felt amazing to me. So like around that time, that's when I made some really good money and I was able to like really provide for my family. So that was like, that was great for me. And in Greece.

man I mean we I was I just finished in Greece so Greece I didn't really get the full experience of course I played against both teams throughout my career but just because of COVID Greece was on big time lockdown throughout the entire year so I didn't really get to experience that I just play with the best guard in EuroLeague history Vasila Spanulis so I think that's the best thing I took from being What was he, okay, so you've played with Steph, you've played with Spanoulis. Okay, what's Spanoulis like? For somebody who's never seen his game, what's he like? As a player? Yeah. I mean, he's a, he's small, he's a small shooting guard, but I mean, in Europe, you can be a six-three shooting guard.

So he's about maybe like six-three, six-four. He can shoot it really well. He actually have this set that teams called the Spanulah. which is like a handoff at the top with the four where he made plays. I mean, he's at the end of his career. He just retired. So I didn't really get to see what he was like when he was really in his prime. But playing with him this year, I could just see that, you know, he really cares about the game.

He's really superstitious. Maybe the most superstitious person I've ever seen in my life. Like what? Like, well, all his shoes and his locker, they're all playing. the right foot in front of the left. He has to walk around this, it's like, so there's like a straight, when you walk in the locker room,

there's a straight path to his locker if you want. You can just turn left and walk all the way, walk straight and he'll be at his locker. But he like loops around this desk that's normally put there, then he sits down. He has like some things, some like pictures that he kissed before practice. He does like the same preparation lift.

All of the staff is involved where they know where they got to be. This is just for practice. He gets on the court. He has a stretch he does. He sits down. He gets like a massage real quick, maybe like five minutes. Then he stretch. Grab, grab the ball, two dribbles, fade away.

And then he tap his foot on the baseline on the road, whether we're going to the airport or we're going to the game. He has to be the first one off the bus. Like this, he's not retiring because he can't play more. He's retired because he's tired of his, tired of his routine. Yeah, his routine is sick. And I've only, I've only paid with him for six months. So just to see that, to see that, it made me like, of course, I have my little superstition, like,

throughout my career sometimes, like, depending if I play well, whatever I ate that day, I'm going to eat that the next couple games until I don't play well. And then there's a one for that superstition. Like, I did things like that. But to see his, it made me, like, man, I would never, like, I would never, like, have that, have that kind of superstition involved around the game. He really was super, super, like the same exact thing. He sat in the

same seat. It was amazing. Yeah, it is, it is amazing. For, we're watching the Olympics, okay? And you try and, you try and explain to people how it's, it's like a different, way of playing the same game. Everybody, we see like Kevin Durant and Dame, we're like, oh, we got this, we're going to win this. But it's just the game, the rules are slightly different. The interpretation of the rules is very, very different. And obviously the style is different.

And it allows the world to be more competitive with us than they probably should be if it was playing in American style. As somebody who's now played as long as you have at as high level as you have, How would you explain what's so different about Fiba-style basketball? It's less space on the floor. So in the NBA, you know, you can watch Kevin Durant play one-on-one against someone to have the entire right side of the court to display his talent. I think the NBA has catered more to entertainment as well as the individual talent that they have.

I think just with like, you know, defensive three seconds, for example. You can't stay in the lane for more than 2.9 seconds. Now, let's say someone is getting out of the lane and Kevin Durant is on the right side. He's a someone, the defender's on the left block and help. And Kevin Durant is playing 101 against somebody on the right side. Let's say Kevin Durant, break him down. And you just getting out of the lane for you to renew your, you're a defense of three seconds.

But Kevin Duran is attacking. There's a possible chance that he's going to be attacking a room just when you're getting back in to try and block his shot. He dunks for you. Dunks create a lot of clicks now and highlights, and that creates a lot more attention to the league. It makes the game more exciting, dunks and threes and all of that stuff.

In Europe, the big man can stay in the paint. So imagine how, this is an even better thing I can say Walter DeVaris played in the NBA for the Cleveland Cavaliers. He was cut. From there, he came to Madrid. Walter DeVaris is seven tall. He has amazing big hands. He's probably one of the best centers in Europe. Why is that? Because he can literally

just stay in the paint in block shots because the rules just cater to more playing together and running your full offense and doing the best you can to create a good shot for your teammate. Yeah, I would say, like, I try to explain to people and say, like, it's kind of like little kid soccer in America is kind of like NBA basketball, right? Where little kid soccer, if you have the best player, you give him the ball the best player, and he just goes by everybody in scores, right? Whereas like in international soccer, like they pass that thing backwards, sideways, 15 times, right?

Everybody touches it. And that's kind of the feeling for how they play basketball as well. It's that soccer mentality. Everybody touches. Everybody moves and kind of a shot becomes available. Whereas we're kind of a brute force country. We're just like, we have the best guy, give him the ball, and everybody get out of the way. Okay, but how come small ball doesn't work as well, right?

Like if Team USA goes to small and they play Dre at the five, how come it doesn't work or it doesn't work as well in international competition as it does? I don't think it works as well just because the court is much smaller. So you don't have that much space. And a lot of teams, they normally just keep. their bigs in the paint. Like in the NBA, Draymond will, of course, he could take the ball. And there are going to be scenarios where he can take the ball and enter the court and make plays. But I feel like with that, with the least amount of space that they have in Europe, it makes it a lot tougher to

like to play as open as you can in the league. You know, there's guys that can help. There's no illegal defense or defense of three seconds. So that makes it already like you plan, like a matchup zone kind of the entire time. Now put that with amazing athletes, like a Rudy Gerber who's an amazing defensive player in Europe. He's going to, I mean, in the NBA, he's going to be 10 times that in a European game because now he don't have to leave the pain at all.

And it's rare that there are centers that can really shoot the ball that well to where he need to be out there covering. And the court is small enough where guards could probably close out and make it difficult for, guys to get that much space. Yeah, no, I mean, it's fascinating. And Rudy Gobert, like, Rudy Gobert is a perfect sample. You mentioned Tobarres, but, like, Rudy Gobert,

his inability to cover on the perimeter and his inability to score against smaller defenders, like, that's why they lost with Clippers, right? The Clippers just went small and ran him out of the playoff. I ran out of the playoffs. Now you look at him with France, and, you know, he scores 14, and he's a way bigger defensive presence because the rules and the style are so different. Okay, so I guess here's the question. If you were in charge, now you got to keep in mind that like in America, we just don't have,

we just don't have that many bigs, right? Like, we just don't. It's crazy. We got all the wings and guards. We don't have to have the big. If you were in charge, do you think we could compete better in international competition if we got guys like yourself that play in. international basketball more often, right?

Like, you know the style. Do you think it would be a better idea for USA basketball to use the top level Americans that play overseas? No, I don't think so. I think they have more than enough talent to win. I think guys just need to really share the ball. like the tough shots that you take in the NBA yeah of course you have you have

30 attempts at that but I think they have so much talent on the team that they need to just play together like make the extra pass I understand but then that sounds really good okay but when like Katie's like yo I've done this for a decade I know it's that the same way they is right So it's like Damien Lillard, it's like what Paul George said, like, hey, man,

and today that's a bad shot, right? And he's right. But like in the NBA, like, you make that big shot to win a series against the Clippers. And that's all we talk about. Like, whereas in the international, that's going to get you killed. Like, you should, that just, that just is. And when guys have, if you've done something one way for a decade and you're like, I mean, just like, think about how hard it was for you to go from just,

being in the NBA in terms of lifestyle to the one, the first practice you had in Serbia. Now imagine doing it for a decade and being a superstar. And then they're like, hey man, for the next tournament, we need you to move the ball the first time you get it every time like that. I totally, I totally understand it. But if you, if you see for me and if you look at like, let's say the NBA MVP, right? The NBA MVP, he averaged probably close to 30 points a game, these amazing stats. Now in Europe, the MVP, the last couple years, maybe average under 16 points a game.

Like, there are nights in Europe when you play in like EuroLeague, which is the top competition. If you have like eight points, that's considered a great night. And that's because of the team, the team is most important. Like there is the value of the team is more important than the individual player. Those are the teams that win. The team that got the individual player in Europe, you know, they're normally not doing too well. But the teams that play together is who win. And that's what all the countries that I've been in, that's what they, that's what they thrive on.

That's what film's about. Film is about, you know, this person is going to be open. When you get this, this is going to be open for this person. Oh, drive and kick. We're going to get open looks like this. played for a coach Brassoc who even games we won. He would pause the film and circle who was open. Like you could make this pass.

This is a better shot than this. Of course you made this. This is a tough contested shot. But look, this person is open. I feel like if USA play it like that or play with the mindset that Draymond has, because Draymond is a team guy who makes the right plays all the time, gets to open, does a lot of small things that helps the team win. I think they would beat everyone easily.

I see people saying that the talent, the talent level was. No, another wrong with the US. I don't think that. I just think these are guys that played together for years with the same system. And now it's just becoming more obvious now that we have so much individual talent in the NBA. All right, you're 32. How long do you want to do this for? And to the body says no.

How's the body? The body's fine. The body's fine. I'm going to go over to Europe late because my mom is having some health issues right now. So I'm not going to be on this first wave of players going over. But I mean, I'm still, I don't have any injuries. Still feel good. Still care whether I win or lose.

I still like to compete. So as long as the team in Europe has a contract for me, no, I'm going to continue to play. I played against Omar Cook this year. Omar's going to be 40 this year. Still look the same way he did 10 years ago. And I got a relationship with him. So as long as I can, I'll continue to play, sure.

Your lifestyle now on a daily basis. Like, are you, do you feel, like, do you feel in any way kind of, like, there's a certain European sophistication, right? or now, like, even if you still have the two practices, now you go to a cafe at lunch. Now there's kind of a different sort of comfort level, right? You have, it's not that you're not hungry, but you do have, like, you got, you got money. So it's, it's, you don't have to cut corners on little things. You used to have to cut corners on.

Like, what is, what is your life like on a daily base? Granted, this last year was weird for COVID, right? Yeah. Like, did you? It changed. It changed, honestly. Before, of course, being away for 10 months, I used to exert all my energy trying to see everyone that I didn't see while I was overseas, whether it was going out and being extremely exhausted through the day just for trying to, you know, hang out with my friends as much as I can. But now, a little older, everything is organized from my workouts to what I'm going to do for the rest of the day. I'm not out late at night anymore.

I'm going to be in bed by 11 now. Reading a lot more. It's more relaxed. I think my 20s I spent a lot of time going out and being in clubs and things like that. But now that I'm over, rest is very important. So funny. I had 530 on my pod. He was like saying the same thing.

Like, man, I was a street kid. I didn't. They called me 530. for a reason, you know. And then we all kind of, we all grew up at some point. Okay, so lockdown this year. Like, okay, in the States, when we couldn't do anything, like, you could, you go get a coffee and you could Uber Eats to your house, you know, or you go pick stuff up.

And when it was really, really locked down, like everybody, there's no sports. We were watching Netflix. And the last dance, when you're in Greece and things were shut down. Like did you do you have like mobile ordering like what is it what is it like there? They have they have the same it's not Uber Eats or something close to that I think it's called global so we have that but out there it was a lot it was a lot it was strict as well so there was like um you had to text a number it was like a like a five-digit number and you had to send a text so the number one it meant that you were like

going out for like a walk. Number two meant like family emergency, don't have to go to the hospital. Number three meant like supermarket and like there were like all these numbers that had these different meetings. So before you could leave the house, you had to, you know, text this number

and wait to get a reply back. You had to send it your name and everything because if they caught you out, it was like a crime. But they were like on lockdown. The team, the team, we got these letters from the government where we were allowed to be outside the house from 10 to like four.

That's like with a possible time you could be in the gym practicing. So if you ever pulled over and the police asked you like, why are you out and showed them the letter, then that'll like allow you to drive off without, you know, having any type of trouble. Wow, that's crazy. And you're playing for Olympiacos, which is like one of those places where you see on,

Hey, normally the cloud is crazy, right? Yeah. But instead you're playing in an empty gym. That had to be, that had to be bizarre. Big gym too. Yeah, it's completely different. I played against Olympiacos so many times. And Red Star in Serbia is like they call each other

Orthodox brothers. So I was expecting a crazy crowd, but we never got that chance to share. So what, do you know where are you going next year? I'm gonna be home. I didn't sign anywhere yet. Like I said, my mom is a, my mom is, you know, she's experiencing some, some health problems right now and that we need to make sure that everyone's around just in case, you know, something happened. So that's the most

important thing for me. I play for 10 years. I saved my money and, you know, this time I need to be, I need to be at home. It's that's more important. In Rutton, I mean, you know, in Europe, when something happens to your family, it happens to you. It's not the club's responsibility. to do that. They're more concerned about the results of the team. So before I get myself into any situation like that, I'd rather leave when my mom is 100% better. If you were to talk to a kid who was 10 in Brownsville today,

who, okay, you've lived all this life. What would you tell him? I'll tell him that there's a better life outside of here for sure. I would tell him that that's the first thing that I would say. I would say there's more of the life than just Brownsville. Just because of that and the fear that I have that my nephew can go down that path is like super important to me. So even while I'm home, I make sure I'm constantly talking to him, you know, I'm constantly going to to pick him up. I'm constantly trying to take him places that I know he's never experienced

before because I do not want him to go down that path at all. So the best thing that I could probably I would do, the first thing I would do is take them to eat in the city, show them something different. I would try to, my best to put them around, you know, people that have experienced some form of success, whether through sports or something else. And try to be able to be able to be able to, my best to like be in their lives. I mean, right now that I'm home, I've been doing my best to try to talk to just younger kids, hang out with them, you know, take them places, talk to them and see where their mind is because with the internet, I think things are getting even worse now. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

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Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month,

I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it

and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely.

And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free I Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. How so? I mean, it's about, I think there's a lot of pressure for everyone to be perfect every day. So you have this expectation of that because this person posted, I don't know, a steak dinner, that this is how to eat every day.

Meanwhile, while you're looking at this on your phone, you probably eating a peanut butter sandwich with the end bread. But for you, you probably think that this is how this person lives every day. So it creates like some type of, like a competition where you compare in your life. to, of course, where you wanted to be and you looking at, you know, the life of one of your peers that's portraying something that he probably only experienced once a year. So I think that's creating a lot of pressure for kids. I mean, I've experienced that. There was, like, times where I used to be looking on Instagram and saying, like, man, this person is doing that. Oh, man, like, I wish I could have that.

Why don't I have that? How come I'm living like that? And it created, like, a form of, like, honestly, like depression. I went through like a tough phase where I mean, of course I have my therapist that I see every Monday but it was when I was

in Russia and them cold, them cold went too nice where you can't go outside. I spent a lot of time comparing my life to other because I had my phone in my hand the entire time just looking at Instagram and what other people were doing. Yeah, so what's the what's the, it's a great like the Simone Bios

thing like right? Like what's the what's the fix to it? How do you Because it's not going away. Yeah. I do, it's not going away. And I do think that there's a, you know, like what I try and do do with my son is like, I'm like, yo man, this has got to be, like you watch some of these guys, they're up,

they're working out at seven in the morning, look what everybody else is doing. But it's still hard because, you know, it's, I'll never be that good. I'll never have this. I'll never be that tall. I'll never be that. How do you, how do you relay the message? that, you know, because that's a, what you're talking about is a real thing. We moved from Connecticut to California four years ago.

You know, we let our, it was a mistake, I think. We let our girls, they were going to middle school, get them a cell phone. And they got a cell phone so they could keep in touch with all their friends. But the problem is that Graham, you know, now they see a birthday party with all their friends that they used to have. And then they follow their friends that they just made, but they're not invited to everything. So back when we were kids, if you weren't hanging out on a Friday night, you didn't think anything of it. But now you're not hanging on a Friday night. You see all of your other friends are together, right?

Just even on that level, that's a hard thing for kids. Yeah. So for you personally, in terms of having that, you know, that IG jealousy, how do you, a therapy helps? How else do you process it? Especially, and how do we help kids process it? Well, for me, with my nephew, we're together, does no, we're not on our phones.

So I like to take him places where he can't use his phone. So if we go to dinner, no phone. I try my best to have him enjoy real time. I think that was like a problem that I started to notice with myself. Like, I never forget this. I went bowling with my friends. And when I was younger and I went bowling, bowling was like an event. If you had a gutter ball, everyone laughed at you.

They pointed they had jokes. If you roll a strike, turned around, everybody celebrated together. And I remember, like, I bowled one time, and I turned around, everyone was on their phones. And also when someone else bowled, I was also on my phone. And I said to myself, like, man, I'm not even, like, I'm not even living the moment. I'm actually so worried so much about capturing it that I'm, like, missing the live, like, feel of, like, you know, like fun, like actually having fun, you know? So with him, I try to, I try my best to just like take him places where he's not even thinking about using his phone.

Which is hard because the moment everything is done, that's the first thing he do. But as long as I can try my best to do that, I think it's giving him a little bit of hope because I'm not going to act like after that. He's not laying down TikTok in for four hours. But I try to keep him active when I'm with him. so he's not drowning in his phone. Because I've also experienced that. That's why it's like tough. Like I always think at the time, I would say like,

when I was talking to my therapist the first time, I would say like, you know, this is what I'm doing on my phone. Like, you know, I need to, I need to find another regimen. I need to get away from, you know, using social media. You know, I need to enjoy real life. I would say things like that to him. And then he said to me in return, like, imagine how a kid is feeling that's at home.

And I couldn't imagine being this young, like, and having a phone and having all these big expectations of like what my life is supposed to be. So I mean, that's tough. I feel like sports is one thing to keep the kids involved in. But I feel like with the internet, the attention span is becoming so low, man. Like they so used to swiping up and seeing something new that is kind of hard to keep kids focus on one thing unless they really. really want to be happy. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about and we're here to change that.

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and you could be me for just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside. Each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. We've all felt left out. And for some, that feeling lasts

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Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bag's daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Dipers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter who looks to be about nine or ten has secured. herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed, and they're off.

Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes! Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at nhtsa.gov slash the right seat.

Visit nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. I thought this one. Okay, so my son's now 12 when he was five or six. He played in his first flag football game. And we get done playing. And he gets down on his first game and he's crying. It's like, bro, what is wrong?

You just played your first flag football game. You scored a touchdown. Like it was, it was awesome. He's like, dad, there were no spectacular plays. And like, what are you talking about? So then it dawned on me He hadn't actually even watched Like he wouldn't watch a football game

Everything he watched football was on YouTube And it was all like It was all highlights It was all the best catches You know And he's like There were no spectacular Like bro, football is not spectacular

Played it's like three yards In the cloud of dust And then you go and do it again And do it again And occasionally like once a game There might be like one breakaway play Like that's you know It's like in basketball

They watch these You know It's about making a kid fall instead of making the right play. It's so hard. And the attention span is worse because they can go see something in a very, they can see everything clipped up, you know? So it really is different.

All right. Last thing, you've been great with your unbelievable with your time. Pro to, as a pro. And obviously there's a huge place in your heart for step. If you were going to say the best player in basketball right now is who? Man, I like LeBron, of course, man. I think when I think about best player, I think of all around. So I would have to go with him.

Consistent, a really good playmaker, a winner, deal with a lot of pressure. Obviously, the best number one pick ever. Champion. Even at this stage. Yeah, more than KD at this stage. That's just tough, man. It's because KD is so good too, man.

KD could do everything. He can guard one through five. He could play one through five. He's just not the pastor, playmaker. He's just not the pastor playmaker. Yeah, but he don't have to be. That's fine. He don't have to be that.

He excels at scoring. You know? He's a walking, but I'm going to have to take LeBron. It's hard. Of course, if I met a park and it's three players left, I'm taking step, bro, you know that. Like, I'm going with Steph forever. But LeBron's been that guy consistently for the last, what, 10 plus years. So I think that's a safe answer for me to go with. Of course, Steph is a. in the conversation every year as well, but I'll go a little bit. Okay, so the thing to me that is unique about Steph, and you tell me because you've

guarded all these great dudes is some guys, like you mentioned learning when you got to Hofstra to go left, right, right, to step into your shot. So, and next time you talk to him, you could ask him, this is a real story. So I did his game, I did a game of his sophomore year. This is before he blew up in the NCAA tournament. and I mean he's always just been incredible and like I underrated him out of the draft or whatever and he's still always been cool to me like it's never he's not never that guy never that you know you were wrong guy um but I told him like at the time I was like man you go he's like

tell me like one thing you see and I was like bro you go left right every time I just don't know at the higher level if you can always go left right and get it off he can go left, he can go right, he can shoot off the catch. Most guys have one thing they do far, but like Kobe and Jordan, it was going right, right? Like LeBron, he's got that weird, I don't know if it's a step back or what you would say, right? But he's got that weird kind of dribble he does to get his rhythm for a shot. Where Steph, he's got a couple of his go-to moves, but it does feel like it feels like. he's equally talented going left and going right and and off the catch or or or in place you've

actually guarded him you've actually worked out with him is that the case is that is there does he go equally to all these different ways yeah he he can he can man so i'll tell you quick we um when i went to work out with him we worked out in um and and in carolina uh for i think it's called like acceleration training. That's like his guy's, like where he's from. And he spent the majority of the workout, like finishing, like, with his left hand. And it looked the same.

Like, everything he did was left, going left, practice him left, whenever even his stepbacks, everything was left. He did it. We worked out for hours. He just practiced it. But it looked. look it didn't look much different from when he was going right so i was like looking at him and i was

of course when i was going left it felt it didn't feel as strong as it did going right but you can you you you really can't tell like if you if you never seen him play obviously and he's just dribbling the ball at the court i don't think you can tell what is his dominant hand because he's equally as good as you know he could he could he can make that high lay up that kids are trying down with his left hand and he can make it with his right so it makes him like really unguarded because his skill set is so high and i remember like him not getting something right and him staying in it like just working at it like getting mad but staying in it continuing to be upset that he didn't make it or frustrated but continuing to like have a good supportive group around him

to tell him that it's going to be okay he's going to make it and him having that like that drive in himself like I'm gonna like this I'm gonna practice this as much as I can and I'm gonna and eventually I'm gonna master it and now like when I see him play I'm like damn that's all I could think of was like when we were working out together like how much he really perfected his craft so he he definitely can go either way he can shoot it I always say Steph take those shots you wish you could take say with your friend. If I make this shot, I'll bet $5, I make this.

But he'd make those in an NBA game. Like, that's something that you can't even, like, imagine, bro. Like, do we, should we, should we give him credit for changing how coaches view those shots?

Or does Gilbert Arenas get the credit? Like, who should probably get the credit for, because this is a discussion I've had my voice. Like, who gets, who gets credit for what used to be considered bad shots to being somewhat acceptable shots depending on who's taken. I mean,

I mean, Gilbert, Gilbert was exceptional at that. But I think, I think Steph's timing the platform that he, at the time, like at the time he did it, it was all, I think he's responsible for the way the game is changed now. I think so. It's pretty interesting.

Pretty interesting. You're on a team. with two guys who I would say are responsible for changing basketball. Yeah. I think I think Steph is the reason that the skill level for like a lot of players is way better. There was a time where the high flyers were praised, you know, and now. Tracy McGrady and Vince. And it's not that those guys don't have the ability to make shots, they do.

But the ability to get, the ability to handle in tight spaces, able to get shots off, like the, just like the stepback, that was, when I was coming up, that was called the Kiki Bandoah was the one who,

like, was the first to really use the step back. But now everybody's, everybody's got a step back. Like, Lucas' step back is different than LeBron's step back. But that's all stuff. Like,

that's all. Jim Hardin was taking step back to you. Yes. Dave Hardin is nice. It's so. It's so crazy, like when I go to the gym now, because I work, I train in Long Island, but it's, I'm involved with this team crown basketball. So we got like, we got, you know, really young kids and we got kids in high school

getting ready to go to college. So a lot of them are working in the game all day in the gym. And just to see what they're working on, you like, man, like, this is, this is way different than what you're used to. Like, of course, players use to work on attack and left. Right. Now it's like, you know, creating a space, being able to get their shots off. Using a ballstream, getting a guy in your hip. Yeah, like snaking the ball streams.

Floaters left, floaters right, step back, side set. My son is 12. He does that, that hardened, like, or actually the Damien Liller, like, when you dribble and take a quick side step and jump shot, right? Yeah, and then. And then, and then, yeah, I like that. I like that. I do, I do too. And he, and then he's like, hey, let's work on your. Like I can't I didn't learn a year like I I played in Europe I didn't I wasn't taught Euro so like the footwork is so foreign to me right and and then and then even coaching defense right where you don't come off the strong side corner anymore at all right you sometimes you try and shut off the court how you bought ball street actions is very

different it really is amazing how the game and you've been you've been around it like you've seen it kind of kind of evolved It's really, okay. I like that a lot. I like the fact that all the kids are really working on these skills now. I really like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Now they do need to play games, right? Like you do need to, and the competitiveness and the understanding of time and score and situation. But they also, the work ethic to it, I think is great. I think that's, even if they don't make it,

it teaches them something for the rest of their life, right? So you put into these little fundamental things that end up paying off. I just hope that they learn. it's okay to miss that shot too. But watching everybody's best plays when they make it, it's also the majority of the mean, where they're missing that shot too. Right, it's like we try and tell somebody,

Steph Curry is the greatest shooter that has ever lived. He misses half of his shots. You know, he missed it. Now, great, it's against NBA competition, but he misses his half half the shot. All right, last, last, last, last, last, last, 20 years from now, Charles Jenkins, to do what? Coaching.

I'm a coach high school. I want to be involved. I want to be involved with the youth. I experienced it when I was in high school. I mean, as I got older and I met other players that had these great relationships with, they had these great mentors and told all these good stories about how people help them. I think just from the area that I'm living in, I think there's not enough mentors out here for the young kids that, of course,

I've experienced a level of success. my money is well invested. So any type of knowledge that I'll have at that time will be genuine. It'll be to really help the next person. I think that's just what I want to do. Solid stuff. Hey, man, you've been more than gracious for your time. Please keep me updated as to the health of your mom.

And she's in my prayers. And then where you're going to go play this. Sure. Hey, man, I appreciate you, man. I remember reading a lot of stuff that you wrote. about me and you always gave me your praises. So even when you follow me, I was so happy, bro, because you really was like one of the first dudes

that showed me a lot of love when I was in college, man. I mean, I'll be totally honest, what all was about is. I watch a ton of games. And when I was like, at ESPN, we'd have nine games up. And you just some guys jump off the screen of you, right? And the way in which you play, like, I'm kind of like, how you feel about Steph was a lot of the ways I would watch when I watch you, right?

Like, I'm not as big as you, whatever, but, like, you have, you had a kind of, like, calm, but focused demeanor when you played, and you just, like, knew where you need to get, like, I just, again, I remember that Kemba game where I was honestly watching C-Six and Kemba play, and I'm like, this dude's a killer. Why aren't people talking about this dude?

He's nice, you know? And you became like my, like, my, like, my favorite guard to watch that year. That's, it was just super organic and natural. How it's supposed that? I appreciate that, man. I love to meet you one day. Yeah, for real.

All right, I'm going, I'm going, I'm going, and you got teaching some of that stuff. For sure. Thank you, man. I appreciate this. Seriously. All right, man. Have a blessed day, and I really appreciate you, go ahead. You too.

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Go to 1,800flowers.com slash tune-in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests. from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

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