The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Pt. 3: Ga. Tech HC Josh Pastner on Recruiting Violations, Bouncing Back,

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

In this episode, Georgia Tech Head Coach Josh Pastner for the third installment of a three part interview, where they discuss the recruiting scandal that landed Tech on probation, how he would avoid a similar situation in the future, and how he bounced back and led the Yellow Jackets to an ACC Tournament Championship and 2020 NCAA Tournament berth. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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All hoops, all the time. Sometimes we divert into other stuff with great guests. All right, this is part three of our talk, which. Josh Paster. And let me do this. There is another pod, which we dropped a couple days ago, where me and Fran Faschilla, we talked about got a little bit more topical stuff in regards to all the things going on in basketball.

What happened at the end of the Sun's game, game one. I'll give you one real quick thought, though, on these reviews. Okay. This is my thought. Look, you're not going to do away with the reviews. You do need to put a clock. on them, but you go to like a neutral corner. That's what you got to do is what you can bring out chairs if you want them to sit down.

I don't think you needed them to sit down. But those five guys that are on the floor have to remain on the floor in an area on the opposite end of the court, on the opposite side of the court from their benches. That's the only way to do it because otherwise you grant these teams a timeout that they didn't earn that they didn't deserve. Simple. Put a clock on it. Put them in a neutral corner from their bench. and if they want to talk about a play, that's fine, but you can't allow for a timeout to come to be that wasn't called.

That wasn't earned. All right, let's get to part three. We've heard from Josh Pasterner, if you missed the last two, about growing up in Houston, being part of that Arizona National Championship team early on in his coaching days and getting the job at Memphis and what all that entailed. In part three, we talked about the accusations by, a former friend that got him in hot water with the NCAA and caused an investigation.

That's where we begin part three of our discussion with Josh Pastor. Take a listen. What is it like to go through what you went through where somebody who you befriended and wanted to help turns on you? And you're somebody who and I mean, look, maybe I have the wool over my eyes. Maybe I don't know. But I've always, you've always struck me a. somebody who just, you just want to help people.

You just enjoy people and your interaction with people. But it goes through something where, like, I was trying to help you and now you're trying to make me look like I'm a bad guy, like what, forget about the job stuff, forget about any of the other stuff. At home with your wife, you personally, emotionally, what is that experience like for you? Yeah, you know, Doug, look, I'm a, just in general, I'm a guy that loves people. I'm a glass that's over. I don't look at the glass that's half full. I look at it as overflowing. I believe in positivity. I live by the thing when I say about how precious life is. I tell people all the time about, you know, like every, literally every day is a gift, every breath's a gift, every heartbeats a gift. Like I don't just say that and then and then go around not like I really believe that. Like I love life. I know how precious. things is like i like doug i know how precious being a head coach is like i i don't take it for granted

there's not a day that goes by that i complain about one thing about my because i i love being a head coach and i know how precious so i say all that to tell you that that look i mean and and i want to do good to people i mean i i love people you're you know and and so when when when when somebody who you felt what you're trying to do good tries to turn on you for for for for for for reasons of just, you know, greed and just not for bad things. You have a sense of like, you know, of hurt, anger. Like how to, you know, you just want to do the right thing. How do you process that?

Like, did you go, like, do you go to therapy? Did you talk to friends? You read books. Like, you just kind of keep plowing through. Like, that's a hard thing. It's a very hard thing. It's a very hard thing, you know, and your positivity, gets tested.

And it's easier said than done because it's easy to say, hey, just stay positive. And that's easier said than done. But you've got to, you know, I was, you know, you try to keep things in the best you can in perspective. And again, I say that easier said than done. I was very thankful that I've had great, you know, I've obviously my family has been unbelievable,

but I've had great bosses who've been extremely supportive during us from really tough times. And but but I also, you know, I still, and maybe it's just my character of my, of just my DNA, I'm such an ultra positive guy that I, that even in the worst of times I've tried to find some positive out of things. And it's just kind of how my mind works. But, but I will say, you know, you're more aware of things, unfortunately. You get a little more aware when I say unfortunately, like maybe you're a little more guy,

you're a little more cautious before you're ready just to jump and answer that email or answer that text or answer that phone to when somebody's needing some help, you know, you're a little more, okay, let me check this out first. And so, you know, beforehand, I was just, whatever I can do to help, to make someone feel better as a human being, if I can do that through basketball because of being a head coach and give them an array of sunshine and array of hope and positivity and excitement and enthusiasm when they're going through some tough times, I look at it like that. That's a great thing to be able to do.

But because of that, of what I went through, I'm more cautious now. I'm not so as quickly to just to say yes to someone who's saying they need help. I might need a little more checking, a little more careful on some things. And you learn, you live and learn.

I mean, you're just, again, if I knew what I knew now, Doug, I would, when I look back, you think, okay, I, you know, but, but it happens to people, millions of people all the time where, where people get hit by people, you know, of all kinds of different ways. And they look back and they say, I should have seen that at the time, but they just didn't see it

because usually you're looking to see the goodness and things. Okay. I don't want to, I don't want to lament on all this stuff, but I do want to ask one question. You give me the, the clearest answer you can. this is all that matters to me. If somebody say, Pastor's a cheer, right? It's sheer.

What would your response be? Well, I mean, look, I mean, I can't worry what people think, but I really, you know, it's very important to me that we do things the right way, you know, that we follow the rules and, and you do the very, very best you can. I've really tried to create an incredible atmosphere of compliance. following the guidelines by the NC2A, the mission of the NC2A, the mission of our athletic departments. And part of that is, you know, that's important to me.

That's important to me to be a rules guy, to follow. When this stuff went down, the people I know who know you, like, dude, of all the guys that I don't think of the guys that, like, do it the right way. like Josh should be the guy and we're friends but I can't tell you I know intricately well about how you do what you do but the way I

the way I try and approach things is I just ask people that know and they're like no way with Josh right like I just don't I don't see it and to me here's here's the deal where I you cannot like the rules okay

but there's a difference between breaking the rules intentionally and then saying, well, you know, I don't like the rules, right? To me, it's go after the rules, right? And try and generate the momentum which they're now obviously evolving and changing. Do you change somebody's grades or do it? Like, that to me is a no-go, right? Do you just give a guy a bag of cash?

Like, that's a no-go. Like, these are cheating things. Bumps, shoes, don't freaking care, right? Like, those are, like, are we some of this? The workout stuff like you were talking about where they used to limit workout times like, oh, my God, are you kidding? Right. So when you say like, hey, look, it's important we do it the right way.

It's those basic things, right, that we're discussing. Like, I don't, we don't buy kids to get them to come to school. We don't change their grades to get it. Right. Like those are the things that you are. I mean, we do the very best we can. Even on the littlest things, Doug. I mean, even on the little things.

You know, I have a great relationship with our compliance department. even when I was at Memphis as the head coach and here at Georgia Tech, I've been, you know, being heavily involved with our compliance department. You know, we're very transparent. I mean,

look, things can happen just inadvertently, you know, mistakes can happen. But we do the best we can to, to making sure that even the littlest of rules are followed. I mean, look, we've all,

I mean, it's just normal you're going to have, you know, you're going to, you're going to have minor, violations throughout, that's just part of it. And actually, that's a healthy thing because if you catch it, you turn it in, you report, that's part of running a program. You're going to have little things. What I would tell you is when the, when, you know, they went, I mean, when I got, we got fully

investigated and fully through, I wasn't even named in, I wasn't named in anything in the, in the NC2A report. When everything came out, there was no, I wasn't, you know, named. There was no head coach control. There was no violation. And there was just, you know, just, you know, unfortunately, you know, some things happened. And we were fortunate that that we had good compliance. And we had a really good atmosphere of compliance. Unfortunately, just some, you know, things happen here and there. And that's just part of the world we live in.

We were able to move forward from it and continue onward and upward with it with our program. Okay. So you get the job. Was Josh already going there or did you get Josh? Josh Okogee was already signed. He was, so he didn't come to Georgia Tech yet. But Brian Gregory and his staff did a really nice job of finding him. I say it was a three-pronged part. Josh Akogi or Brian Greger and his staff did a great job of evaluating because he was not a highly level rated recruit. He wasn't a top 100 place. wasn't a top 10 player in the state of Georgia. But he was a good player. So Brian Gregg and his staff did a good job on the evaluation.

Our staff did a really good job on developing him. Wait, wait, don't skip. Okay, so you get the job. Yep. Okay. Because I don't think people understand how this shit works, right? And honestly, I don't totally know how it works. Okay, so you're at Memphis, BG gets fired.

You get the job. Okay. Like while you're in route, are you like, all right, who do they have sign? Like when do you get to the, all right, what are we working with here? Because as I've learned, and as you kind of pointed out, when you're coaching a team, you're not, you don't know about what's going on in the ACC. You don't care. You're worried about your team, your kids, your program, and maybe your league.

That's it. And Georgia Tech, as much as it's a great job at a great school and a great city, like their stuff isn't in your kind of purview. You're in a tunnel. Okay. So are you on a private plane to go to the press conference and you're figuring out staff and roster? Like how does it actually work? Yeah. So when I got the job in Memphis, I went, when I got the job at Georgia Tech, I was in Memphis.

And then we flew to Atlanta to do the press conference. And yes, you're just trying to get your, you know, you're grasping everything. everything that's, that's, you know, your head around everything of when you take over. And there's a lot of going on. I mean, you get tons of phone calls. Obviously, people went to the job. You get the current staff there that just got, you know, relieved of their duties. They obviously would like to stay on. You got the current players. You got recruiting. The signes. There's just a lot. You have people you got to meet. So there's just a lot of stuff to do. You know, and I felt I did a good job, you know, I didn't rush in anyone I hired. I took my time. I was really running the program by myself

for almost a month in a sense before I hired it. And when I really was slow moving on, on my hiring. But but I ended up, you know, again, just like I did at Memphis, hired a lot of really good coaches. I did the same thing at Georgia Tech hired a lot of really good coaches. And, and so, but I say all that to say that, But like you got to re-recruit these kids, right? And then you got to re-recrued. Do I want them? Correct.

Do I want them? Correct. And there's some kids that you're like, well, he's signed. So technically I take him, but I got to go like, well, you could come, but you might not play. Like for Josh specifically, had you decide like, one, did you want him? Two, did you have to fight to keep him? Right. Like, what was that like?

Yeah. I mean, look, I had some, I had some opportunities, you know, with the guys when I met with them and a couple guys didn't stay, the current guys, a couple of them had ended up moving on. But thankfully, majority in, you know, stayed, a lot of them stayed. And they were seniors. They were going to be seniors. So we had some guys, upperclassmen guys. And then we had, you know, the signies of the recruiting class.

And Josh Okie was one of them. And so I had to go to his home and try to, you know, and I didn't know, I'd never seen Josh play before me getting to the job. I mean, he wasn't like some highly level raised. So, so. Again, paint the picture. What's it like? Tell me, Josh Okie, home visit, you just get the job. Go.

Well, yeah. And it took, and it was about, you know, it wasn't the first day or second day. It was a couple, it was about a week later when I went to his home because there's just so much going on. I went to his home. And we, you know, he has a beautiful family. And they were really big about him going to Georgia Tech. His mom and dad based on academics. They did not have any, they were not, they didn't have a basketball field. You know, they were all about academics.

They didn't even know if the kid would ever play or if he was even any good. They had no clue. It was academics, academics, academics. And, you know, his high school coach was in the meeting and he understood, you know, Josh has a chance to be a good player. And his brother, Josh's brother there, who was a dentist. But again, he thought, well, maybe, but again, academics was the number one thing for that family. and there wasn't even a talk about basketball.

And, of course, we were talking about Georgia Tech. But then I explained about my style and why I think I'd be good for Josh. And, you know, look, Doug, my style is not for everybody. And I tell everyone this, you know, I don't curse. I don't use any foul language. I'm very positive. I'm very demanding. And I have high standards.

But but but but but it's why I tell them if you, hey, look, if you, if you need coach that's going to be in your grill and cursing at you to get you motivated, I'm not a good guy for that. Like I'm a motor guy. I believe in motor and positive. And like I'm going to demand excellence from you. I'm going to hold you account. I'm going to tell you the truth. But I'm not going to play mind games. I'm not, you know, I'm very direct. What you see is what you get. I believe in like having a pep in your step, like being excited about life, being excited about opportunities. but if you need someone to kind of curse at you and get underneath your skin by, you know, I said, I'm the, I'm the wrong coach because I don't, and I said, I'm going to,

and so when I recruit guys, I tell them that, like, I'm, I might not be the guy for you. If that's what you, you know, and, and, and if that's not what you want, that's okay. And, and so if you don't have that internal drive, that self-motivation, maybe I'm not the right this. I'm not going to, I'm going to drive you to be excellent, but I'm going to, drive you to be excellent through a lot of positivity through a lot of like you know motor and and and and holding you to a high standard but doing in a way of of of with with with with the ultimate level of respect and I think the family and appreciated that so they signed off as did Josh to play to say hey let's

let's let's continue to stop but he wasn't a highly it wasn't like a bunch of schools were trying to get him so so so how long as after you had him or you're like. I thought after the first, after the summer, after the summer, I told our staff, I think he, by his junior year, he could be all ACC by his junior year. And that's what ended up hurting what, what, what actually, you know, we won the ACC this past season, but what hurt us in getting there even quicker was I did not plan that for Josh leaving after a sophomore year.

He was tremendous for us for two years. I thought he'd be he needed a third year and I thought after his third year he'd be probably good enough to go after especially after his freshman year but I said he'd be I told our staff after his junior he'd been all ACC

but look is after a sophomore year he was he was a 20th pick in the draft and we probably net and so my third year in the program we took a little step Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged it's the enhanced games some call it grotesque others say it's

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Yep, that's me. Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions. my journey from basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

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And if you look, because we had a great, my first year, we had a great first year. You know, we got, you know, we did some things that had not been done at Georgia Tech. The second year we were up and down. But I knew because we had lost a lot of seniors. I knew second year was going to. And I've said this earlier, you know, in our, in our first episode, that it was going to be that second year is usually. the hardest year because you're new. So I knew, I thought the third year we were going to be, we were going to be really good. I thought, I thought the third year we were going to start making

the move. But because Josh left, that ended up hurting us and took us a step back. And when he told us he was not coming back, it was too late in the recruit to sign. And I, I couldn't get anyone. And then now, so we had some ups and downs at 30 years. But then I will tell you, our fourth year and fifth year, the last two years here, we have done some things at Georgia Tech that has not been done one in the history of Georgia Tech, hadn't been done in over 30 years, hadn't been done things in 15 years and over a decade. I mean, I could just round, I could just start running off a bunch of stats. The point is, is it took us probably the fourth and fifth year to do that. It would have probably happened a year earlier if Josh had not left us. And I would have been more prepared

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um in in in the summer or uh at a u basketball after I got the job and you know in my assistant you know I again I've had great great assistant coaches um and Tavaar's Hardy who's now head coach at Loyola, Maryland, brought me to see him. And he was at Georgetown prior to me hiring him here at Georgia Tech. But he told me about Jose Alvarado. And he says, coach, I'm telling you this kid. And, you know, of course, when you watch Jose, he's small, you know, and there's a lot of things he wasn't overly quick.

I had a lot of people tell me from New York, like, coach, are you sure? You know, and I kind of, I liked him. But I was, you know, as he, but people would tell me he's, you know, Because at the time, he's a two-star, three-star guy, but he's been around winning. He won in high school. He won an AU ball. And what was interesting is I had so many people tell me,

I'm not so sure he's good enough, like, because he's small, he's not quick, he can't do this. Coach, you're in the ACC. You're in the ACC. Well, I remember in a Sunday morning game in Las Vegas, it was 8 a.m. game. His team had a bunch of really good players, and they were playing 8 in them.

And it was, I was in the, you know, they had some high level guys. And they didn't feel like it. It was a long summer. I could tell they were ready to go home. Ada, you always, I had this, I had a pod with Jamel Thomas, right? And we have part two coming out as well. And Jamel was on the Gaucho's. And he had him, Sham God, and Stefan Marbury.

And they lost in the, when it was, it used to be just one big tournament, the Nike one, John Farrell's. And everybody said, like, don't play New York team? Play them at 8 a.m. because they just got in at 4 a.m., right? And so you're painting the picture perfectly, kind of marrying our two podcasts, right? So it's 8 a.m.

Do you remember what high school? What gym at time? Yeah, it was at, it was at Durango. No, it was at Gorman Bishop. Yeah. And I remember, and I was there and it was 8 a.m. There's not a lot of people in the gym, and they didn't feel like playing,

but other than one guy, and that was Jose Alvarado. And Jose Alvarado got into these guys, in his own teammates' face, because they weren't playing hard. They weren't, and I mean, and it didn't matter. He wanted to win so bad, like so bad. It didn't matter if it was a long, winning matter to him more than breathing, literally. And I saw that, I was like, I have to have this kid because you know why?

In my mind and my vision, I said, when we line up for the national anthem and we're playing Duke, North Carolina, Saratucas, and they have all these McDonald's, All-Americans, and the best. players in the country and you're done with warmups and the sweats coming down. Jose Alvarado is going to look across the line there on the other side, the free throw line and be like, man, I'm going right for your juggler vein. I'm going right at you. I'm not, I don't care about your acut. I'm going to play with such an edge and a chip. There was no fear with him. He had, he wanted to go compete against those guys and didn't care about the name on their jersey or anything or the name on the back of the jersey of the opponent. He was going right at him. And I said, I've got to have

that guy. And in order for us to be successful at Georgia Tech, we need, I needed some guys with some chips and edges on their shoulders. And Jose set the tone for us on that, you know, and, and he's been an incredible guard during this time here. He, I said this. And let me just say this the year before when he got there, my first year, like I had a great guard. His dad's a head coach now at Eastern Michigan, Josh Heath, Stan Heath's his dad. He was a hard nose playing guy. Quentin Stevens, I had this kid who would not, this is an incredible story. Honest to God, true story. I'll go back to Jose.

Let me just say this story. I know we're running. Tell us why you're doing better. This is what it's about. But so we have the guys the programs in. Okay, it's called the program. They're military guys. They come in and it's a, you know, they put some things.

It's like a 36-hour deal. They put you through some things. It's kind of team building. And Quentin Stevens, you know, this was the greatest thing that. happened to Quentin Stevens and he'll tell you. So we're there and people always say Quentin's you know, it wasn't real tough and just a, you know, it wasn't a tough, hard-nosed player and this and that. So we're in this preseason thing in September. We're at the program and these two, this is, this Navy SEAL and this Marine, they're going to put us through the thing.

And can anyone not go through the training? Quentin Stevens raises his hands. And I'm like, man, they all told me when I got the jiver, this guy's got a lot of, no, it's not tough. And, you know, he gets out of things, he raises his hand. And so he stands up. And Quentin's a phenomenal young man. And he says, yeah, my big toe's bothering me. And he was like, you know, which he did. He had a big toe deal.

You know, big toe was bothering him. And so the Marine and the SEAL said, okay, they weren't going to make him do anything. I could see that kind of like, I could see the Marine. The guy was like, you know, I mean, this guy, this Marine guy was like, like, he was, he was, he had Are you kidding me right now? Like he, he, he was telling stories where he, like, he enjoyed, like, wrestling with, like, lions and tiger. He was, like, he was just, you know, it was great. And so, like, he did things like that on his spare time.

Like, he'd want to go and, like, so we're walking out. I'm walking with Quinn, and the guy, and he grabs Quentin and says, hey, let me just tell you something. Dude, I just got to tell you this. He was, I was on the battlefield, and I had a teammate who got his, who got snipered, and his entire leg got blown off. and the guy is laying there, his legs blown off, and his legs like, you know, 10, 15 feet away from his body, he's getting shot at. While he's bleeding out, he scrambles to his gun without a leg,

and he starts picking him his gun and shooting back at the people to help his teammates to give them cover. And so the Marine turns of, don't you ever tell me. that your big toes bothering you and you can't perform. I mean, and the guy's eyes were like, you should have seen his eyes. He was so locked in when he was telling Quentin this.

I'm just telling you this. Quentin, like, looked at him. He performed the entire thing. Quentin Stevens became, he was the best, the best 50-50 ball and defensive rebounder in the ACC. that year. He played so hard. You ever seen those plays or Dennis Rodman like lanes out? That was Quentin. He gave his body like you wouldn't believe. He had more toughness of rebounds, getting hit, flipping in the air to get balls. And it was all because of what that Marine told him.

It changed his mindset. And I was so proud of Quinn, he helped us win so many games. But because of that that instant changed his, his trajectory of his career. And so he was, but I say all that, going back to Jose Alvarado, and I'm so proud of Quentin. I love him.

He's such an incredible, but he won us so many games because of how hard he played. But in a guy's like Josh Heath, the same way. Corey, I had this kid coming off the bench, Corey Hayward.

Man, this kid played so hard for, so hard. It was incredible. And Josh Okie is a hard playing guy. You know, his Twitter handles nonstop, you know,

a high motor. But Jose Alvarado, I say all that to say, I believe Jose Alvarado is the greatest 50-50 ball guy in the history of Georgia Tech. And he, and there's the reason he's the two-time back-to-back years, led the ACC and Steeleads. The only other player ever do that was Chris Paul, ACC defensive player of the year. The guy was tough as nails when more 50s. Isn't that, again, I understand you're in a bottom-line business. day, right? I understand, like, you're a nice human being and you treat people well and you're having an amazing life because of those things. And, and you're judged based on wins and losses. But you talk about a kid who had reputation as being a little soft and he becomes this incredible teammate and hard playing dude. Like, isn't that kind of what it's all about? Like, isn't that, like, that's, like, that's really what, what the, what the job is supposed to be. And again, I under, and generally, if those guys change from boys to men, if they do, you're going to win more games because of it. But like, isn't that the core of what you're doing, right, is teaching something?

Because that, those lessons, like, that's why I think, I mean, I know there's medical salespeople that they love to hire athletes. Because most athletes, like, you're not going to be good unless you get up and work out on days you don't want to work out. Right. Or unless you've dealt with the fact that you guys. to get up and get in practice, know it's going to suck because you guys just lost a game you should have won. Like those are the things that help you for the rest of your life. And I would, I do think that we sometimes get lost. And what is this actually all about?

That's what it's about. Well, and that's where you're, you know, the, the mission of the NC2A. Yes, Doug, you want to win. Who doesn't want to win? That's what's great about sports. It's the best reality of best reality TV show because you don't know the outcome. It's what makes the NCAA tournament great. It makes just college athletics great.

But that's what's the mission of the NC2A. That's the mission of college, of high school, whatever it may be. The mission is to help the young person and to help the student athlete. Yes, as coaches, we all get paid a lot of money. We do have responsibilities to have success on the court because that helps everything. But as a coach, one of the great satisfactions is when you go to graduation and you see the guys walk across the stage and graduate and knowing that, you know, you know, four years. Plus you're like a legit, like Georgia Tech.

There ain't no hiding majors at Georgia Tech, man. No, no question. And so, and, you know, and when I was, like, I'll tell you guys like at Memphis. And I feel like you might have this feeling why you feel so close to Eddie, coach Sutton, you know, and just because, you know, like when I was at Memphis, I had some guys who maybe had, you know, had like a second chance. and they had an opportunity where they, you know, they had some struggles early. And I could see, man, the time I invested to see these guys change their life.

Yes, I wanted to win and help them basketball, but through basketball gave me such satisfaction, to see them to understand about discipline and opportunities to really change their life. Or maybe they had a previous mistake or they had some tough issues prior to. And then you see them change their life and then become, you know, married and have, you know, kids or working and doing great things. And because of basketball, maybe because of a coach or because of an environment, it allowed him to change and change their trajectory of their life. Darrell Walker, Darryl Walker tells anybody who will listen that he would end up on the street

dead, if not for coach setting in Arkansas. Like he would have. And, you know, I just, that's what in many ways we get lost in the, so many things that don't matter. And what does matter is the having guidance. And that's where the power, that's where the power of a coach can come in and how and, and, and, and, and when you really look at it, because, you know, look, but see, I, I think, and again, I understand that, like, if you say, I don't like the transfer portal and all this things as a coach, and you got to take, kind of, you got to do it. Right. But I think the transfer thing hurts it.

I just the ability to go and not have to sit out. Like, okay, why didn't you play him? Well, maybe I didn't play him because he didn't practice hard. He just didn't. Or he wasn't doing what he was, all these little things I wanted him to do, he didn't do. And so I didn't reward him with playing time. And what happens? I'm trying to coach a kid.

You can't coach him if there's no punishment for leaving. And people, you hear the word punishment. And you're like, well, that's just unfair. you're doing like, no, there's a, there's a process there. And if you trust the person in the process and trust that by year three and four, there'll be a grown up and they come in. And I just, I think we're ruining that with, with some of the recent policies, which are so in favor of the player that it takes away the ability for the coach to actually do his job.

Yeah, you know, well, look, I mean, the, regarding the transfer portal, Doug, you know, that that has, you know, because a lot of people ask me about it, you know, that train has left the station and it's not going back. No question. It's so, so you're going to have to adapt to that. Just like you're going to have to adapt to the NIL, name image likeness. The college athletics has changed and it will continue to change and we'll see how the NIL changes things. We'll see how, you know, the transfer portal has changed things obviously. And Doug, you know, you can't complain about it or be upset. You have to be flexible.

You've got to be able to adapt. You've got to be willing to change. Because if not, you'll get left behind because those things have, like the train is left a station. Whether people agree or disagree with it, it's not going backwards. Right. What was it like? Like you take the Georgia Tech job.

And I think to many people was like, he just had to take a job because the Memphis job had gone stale, right? to go from that place where you take a job through like, hey, Jordan Tech's got great history, but you ain't winning there. You know, you got, it ain't, it ain't just the old days of you got Duke and Carolina. You got Duke, you got Carolina.

Virginia just won the national championship. Syracuse, Louisville, right? Like, that's unbelievable. Unbelievable. I didn't even get into the other Florida state, right? to go from taking the job, winning 13 games in year two, to winning the ACC, what is that feeling like? Yeah, no, it was an incredible, first of all, again, all, you know, it's just three things.

One, thank God it had great bosses. You know, one gave me an opportunity and also stuck by me. So, you know, a mix of at the time, you know, to get hired. and then to be able to continue to see that, just to see it all the way through. Two, I've had great assistant coaches and great staff. That's a huge thing.

And then three, and most importantly, and you can't do it. I mean, we've had great young men and, and I've been very fortunate on that. But Doug, yeah,

to win the ACC and you look back because, you know, when I took over Memphis, I took it over, I've seen it from both spectrums. I mean, I've seen a lot. I've been through a lot.

and see something where you're taking over at the very highest of high levels, and then you're taking something over where you're kind of starting from the ground zero to build it up. I've seen it from both directions. But to say you've done it both ways, you've been successful, you know, we've had good success in both ways. And then in the end to win the ACC championship, it's beyond to, you know, as time has evolved going into this summer, you look back and say, that's just an amazing accomplishment in this league.

Because I remember, and I got a little flack for this, and I understand looking back why I could get flack. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

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search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. After my first year, we finished 11th. And we had won, we were eight and nine and eleven in the league, or excuse me, eight and ten in the league. And I was like, wow, I mean, eight wins in this league. And I was like, I don't know if we'll get the eight wins again. I don't know if we'll get, I mean, we might not, we might not get to, you know how hard is to get to eight. And I was saying we should. Tell people I have no idea. I have no idea. To get eight wins in this league. And then I remember, and some people are saying, well, how could you say, I was like, yeah, I probably shouldn't have said that, but I was, I said it because I knew how hard it was to get eight wins. And then to go back and in back to back

years here to finish, you know, in the top five in both years and, and to have the wins. you know, it was it was the first time in over 30 years for Georgia Tech to have back-to-back winning records in ACC play. I mean, it's been a long time back. I mean, this year we set the record for the most consecutive ACC home wins. First time in the history to have back-to-back double digit ACC wins or over 500. And so we've had we've had a lot, you know, obviously over a decade, get back to the tournament over, you know, 20 years, 23 years, you know, to win a, or 28 years to win the ACC

championship. So, you know, there's just, there's been a lot of great things. And, you know, the challenge, look, can you try to sustain that? Because this league is a monster. And what's, so what's that, that's the next question? Yeah. What's realistic, right? Because you lose, you not only lose two times deals later, defense player of the year,

but he's a four-year starter at point card. And when Georgia Tech's been great, and this is why I almost went there, I point guard you. I mean, just unbelievable of point cards. But, like, this is a hard landscape. Now, the good thing is, Coach K last year at Duke, right? North Carolina, we'll see there's turnover there. You know, the league, there's going to be some changing, some evolution of some of these programs. There's going to be some challenge, like, for John Chiron, like, that's the tough.

You think following John Caliperi and stuff at Memphis? Like, that's tough. Try following Mike's your chef's at Duke. Good luck. But so, okay, with that in mind, what is the plan in terms of sustainability and the realistic kind of plan in terms of sustainability? You know, look, you want to sustain and keep it at the highest of high levels that you can. And let me just say this, there's multiple blue bloods. That's what makes this league so amazing.

Blue Blood, you know, Carolina, Louisville, Syracuse. I consider Virginia Blue Blood, you know, when you think about it from what Tony Bennett has done. I mean, it's off the charts. What Florida State has done, what Leonard Hamilton has done. I know they, you know, I mean, over the last decade, look at his success. You know, I mean, I could go on on. I mean, heck, Mike Bray is the winningest coach in the history of Notre Dame. you know,

look, Jim Laroniaget at Miami. I mean, you know, think about, you don't have to sell me in the league. I know, no,

what's the realistic plan? No, what's the realistic plan? I could go on about multiple more coaches in this league. You sound like Dick Vitale. Oh,

let me tell you about Mike Bray and Mike Chishefsky. Well, no, I, the coaches in this. Well, Chris McGinnett and Xavier.

Oh, like, I get it. The coaches in this league are all, all coaches. coaching this league. But so all the coaches in this league are amazing. But I will say the reality moving forward of really, you know, you want to compete and challenge for the, you know,

for the ACC regular season and tournament championships. That's what you want to do. We're all striving for that. Does it happen? I mean, that's going to be the, you know, we're going to do all we can to try to continue into that avenue. But I know it's not easy. I know it. how hard it is and the challenge it is. But we're up for the challenge. We'll see if we can continue to moving forward. I believe we can, but we're going to have to get it done on the floor. You know, Doug, you got to get a little lucky.

You got to knock on wood, you've got to stay healthy. You've got to continue to recruit well and continue to develop. And you're going to have to, you know, it's a make or miss game. It's a fine line. You've got to put the ball in the basket. Yeah. Yeah. I know.

I mean, it's going to be, it's giving cripple. Look for your children's eyes to see the true magic. of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles.

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navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. You win the ACC. You've done this incredible job at Georgia Tech. But it didn't feel like you got a shot at Arizona. And like, I mean, I kind of saw it coming because of the other stuff, right? But, I mean, that had to be your dream job. And it's not like you haven't proven yourself.

Like, you win 30 games in Memphis. You win the ACC at Georgia Tech. And again, please keep in mind to anybody at Georgia Tech. I wanted to go to Georgia Tech. Like we could do a pod on what happened with Georgia Tech when I transferred out of Notre Dame. So I love and respect Georgia Tech. I think it's an amazing place. But to win the ACC is an amazing accomplishment, amazing.

But to not really get deep into the Arizona job. How do you process that one emotionally? Well, let me just say this. I mean, look, I love my time at Arizona. You kidding me? I mean, I was there for 13 years. years as a player, staff member, assistant coach, part of team that won the national championship. Some of my best friends are my teammates. I mean, I loved, I loved Tucson. I loved

everything about it. I mean, you know, you're, I could list you guys. You don't have to go on on. No, but no, but I say all that to say that to say that I haven't been there in a long time. And so I know, but Josh, let me finish. Arizona. Yeah, I understand. But let me just say this. Jonah. I understand.

And I love Arizona. And I always have it, you know, but at the, but I also have a, you know, there was, as time has evolved, I just kept it. Like, I recognize, man, I, I'm at Georgia Tech. I'm, I'm in a great position. I'm in the ACC. see. But, dude, you're like, let me finish. You're an emotional human being.

And truth be told, you're a very normal human being, right? You have positivity. But when you're like, what do I got to do? You know what I mean? And it's, and look, I wish nothing but success for Tom. Tommy's been good to me. But you hired a guy with no Arizona ties, who'd never call a time out before.

And you had a guy who went there, played there, one last chance of coached there, just won the ACC. And like that has to, on some level, like, piss you off, like, disappointed. Like, you had to, there has to be something other than, I haven't been there a long time and it's changed a lot. I know, like, look, I haven't lived in Oklahoma in 20 years or whatever.

Okay. And Mike has been incredible to me, incredible. And I interviewed there. And they gave it to him and I was like, dude, that one. That hurts. Right. It hurts. And he's been great.

Like I have no, it will, like I think I want Mike Boyton to succeed just like you want Tommy to succeed. Right. Nobody wants your own model to be shitty. Nobody. You want your own monitor to be good. So they go like, hey, you're good now. Remember back we won a national championship. But how do you deal with that emotionally and mentally that you didn't get.

what anybody would consider a fair shake. Well, let me just say this. First of all, and one is, I mean, you look at the Arizona former players. Like, and I've known Tommy Lloyd for a long time. He's going to do a great job at Arizona. He did an incredible job with Mark Fueick and Zaga. He's going to have tremendous success. You know, Jack Murphy is there with him.

Jason Terry is with him. He's going to be extremely successful there. So, you know, that's just part of the job. People, you know, when presidents and ADs hire, they have someone, and that's just part of the profession. And Tommy Lloyd's going to be great. But I'd also say, take me out of it. Like, I, as an Arizona guy, but no, but as an Arizona guy, like, I'm just saying that I know that, you know,

look, you had Steve Kerr, who's, you know, going to be in the Hall of Fame for coaching. You got Luke Walton, one of the, you know, best coaches, Damon Stoddemeier, you know, who's So I wasn't thinking me during that time. Yes, I know I've had some success, both at Memphis and Georgia Tech. And so, again, keeping things in perspective, Doug. I mean, so I thought all along that it was probably going to be a guy like Damon or Luke Walton, and obviously Luke and Steve Kerr probably didn't want to come back to college, but obviously what Damon's done at Pacific.

But that's just part of the, that's part of, college athletics, a president and an athletic director, you know, they're going to, you know, they might feel comfortable so and they might have a vision with someone else. That's just part of it. That's how things work. Listen, I could say the same thing about when I got the job at Memphis or even got the job at Georgia Tech. People could be saying those are part of it. I get it. And, and so in that whole time, I understand what you're saying. But I also had a perspective that I'm in the ACC. I'm at Georgia Tech. I love it. I love Atlanta. I love Atlanta. I'm in a great spot. And the whole time, I was really thinking, you know, again, like I said,

whether they hired Tommy lawyer or not, I was thinking maybe, you know, Damon Stoddemeier, man, he's been so good at Pacific or obviously Steve Kerr and Luke Walton probably weren't going to lead the NBA, but Damon Stadamire has done a great job. But Tommy Lloyd's going to do a great job. I mean, I've known Tom. He's been, I mean, look at Gonzaga. You can't deny their success. They've been extremely successful. And, um, and part of that reason they've been that successful because of Tommy Lloyd. Uh, okay, I got two more. I got to go. I got to go to. Okay. First one is recruiting the super elite guys, right?

Now, it's one of the things, Jay Wright used to talk about this all the time back when the first time they went to the final four, they had the number one recruiting class, and then they were bad. And then he said they come up with this OKGs, right, our kind of guys. You've got to recruit your kind of guys. Now you've had success at Georgia Tech. And you're in Atlanta where there's dudes. Plus, Georgia Tech has always recruited New York City well. Jose is from New York City. You have connections everywhere.

How do you manage that with success? You can get into homes that you couldn't get into previously. Yet, you might recruit, you might not, like, Josh is the kind of guy that Georgia Tech has to get in order to be sustained success, right? A little under the radar, academic-minded, and comes in and just becomes a great player, right? It doesn't mean that you can't take a higher level, but how do you balance out the,

do I go after the top 50, top 25 kids that have to play right away and it's harder to win with them right away versus the guys that are more your kind of guys that you've been successful with at Georgia Tech? Well, look, Doug, I think it's part of it is, you know, as we talked about previously, a lot of it's devaluation.

You got to do a great job evaluating. And then you got to do at Georgia Tech. You got to do a great job of player development. That's important to us. We spend a lot of time on that and getting guys better because we're probably not going to get the guy that's instantly ready to go right to the NBA. So I think you've got to do a, you've got to really, and I've heard coaches speak about this when they've had success. They maybe tried to go in a different direction than what's got them successful. And it's ended up backfiring on them.

So I think we've got to stay to who we are. We understand who we are at Georgia Tech. I, you know, with what makes us, as our athletic director likes to say, kind of the secret sauce of what makes us, what makes Georgia Tech special. And we've got to continue staying in that realm. And we've got to continue doing that. And so keeping discipline, keeping focus, look, we all want to get the best players we can get. Who doesn't?

but it's finding the right fit. And I think just because you're having success, yes, more doors open for you for student athletes, but that doesn't mean it's the right fit for the program or were the right fit for them, vice versa. So I think staying disciplined and you've heard many programs when they've had great success, they've gone away from what's made them successful

and it's end up backfiring on them. So I think us staying the course on who we are and what we're about. And what's important to me and us as a staff and a program, we've got to stay in that, in that, in that direction. All right. The face mask. Who is your wife?

Who gave you the face mask to start? Well, the face shield, what happened was, was I was struggling coaching with the face with the mask, because you just took it on and off all the time. And I felt like when I was yelling, you know, I was yelling at the guys through the face mask. Nobody can understand you. They couldn't understand me.

They couldn't see my facial expressions. And then three, I felt like I was suffocating, you know. And so it was just, so I said, I can't, it's hard for me to coach this. So I had to use the facial. I didn't feel like I was, you know, you didn't feel like you're suffocating because you know, two, they could see your facial expressions. And three, it was just, you know, I wasn't touching it. How many times would you see coaches with the mask touching your face all the time on

and off, on and off with the facial? Yeah, I lifted it up a few times. but the majority of time I kept it down. And it just became one of those things. You know, people are calling me the welder because I look like, and I told people, please don't call me the welder. It's totally disrespectful to that profession. I can't even change a light bulb for crying out loud.

So I felt awful for anyone that's a true welder. People are calling me a dentist, you know, because a dentist wears that. I says, please don't. I said, the dentist go to school for eight years to become a dentist. You know, I said, that's not fair to the dentist. I said, you know, I said, I'd feel awful for the dentist that they're comparing me to a dentist. So I was being called all kinds of different names. But I like the face shield.

It was, it was simple. It was easy. And if we have to wear masks again next year, I'll wear the face shield again. I don't foresee us having to do that. But if we were, if we were mandated to do so, I'd be wearing the face shield again. And you've gotten a haircut between part one and part two, by the way. I did. I have gotten, during the season, I'd gotten zero haircut.

because I was just trying to, you know, I didn't want to have any issue or could have got possibly contracted COVID. So I really, you know, and then, and then after the scene, I got a haircut, which was in March, and I just got a haircut just recently. So it's been, you know, about a three month window, three to four months I can go and I can get a little while, but I had to get a haircut. It was. You had the, you had the, you had the Jew fro going. Yeah. It was, it was, wow. It was. It was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, wow. There was no doubt about it. Um, okay. So, so this was actually the last question. one thing that you had to do or you did during the pandemic, did during COVID with all these protocols, they're like, you know what? I think I'm going to do this even when the world opens back up.

The restrictions are going away and God willing will be out of it, but there are some great, like working, I work from home a bunch of these things. For you, one thing that you did during COVID that you're going to try and continue to do that, what is the expression? It's necessity is the mother of all. invention, that necessity became the invention. I can just, you know, there's three things just top off my head. Number one is, you know, I used to be a big meeting guy to make sure that we met as a staff

to be organized. So we need to all be in the office to meet. What time did you used to always meet at? I mean, we usually met, right, you know, maybe it would be about like noon or, you know, like a let. So that gave us time in the morning to watch the previous days practice or the, you know, to kind of get our thoughts together or do it. So we're at about 1130 noon.

We would meet. And then, and just to kind of. kind of be organized going into the day of practice. But, but, you know, from this, we've met a lot through Zoom or Microsoft team. Like, we don't have, meetings now like, hey, let's just get on a team's call. Like, we don't have to all be in the office to meet. So we can get accomplished. That's one.

Two, we don't need to be in the film room to all close together to watch film. We did film all year long in the gym in our, in our, and sitting in the stand spread out with a bit. We just rolled in a big TV and we just had space. To me, I think we'll just continue to do that. I like that better, you know, I mean, instead of being all, you know, right next to each other in a smaller film room. And three, I hope we continue this.

I don't see, and nothing against sportsmanship, because I think sportsmanship is so important. But, you know, I think we should keep fist bumping or elbow bumping before the games. And even after the games, is there necessary to continue to shake hands? You know, I know that we're going against each other. That's okay. Tell me what. But because I, yes, we all talked about COVID, but let's talk about colds and flus and strep throats and, you know, all kinds of other stuff.

But not, not the, not the, some guys are anti-handshake because, you know, the idea of fight happening or. No, not that. Nothing with that. I was thinking more, more germ-wise. No, smart. I mean,

like, nobody got the flu this year. Like, no, I mean, I mean, I'm just thinking more health and safety.

And people would say, well, Willis Wilson. Willis Wilson. Comes back to Willis Wilson. Yeah. What's the difference? They're saying,

well, what's the difference of, you know, you're banging against each. Yeah, I get that. But sometimes when you're going, you know,

your hand, everyone's shaking the hands after. And then all you're hugging. Dude's hug. You touching the face. You know, and then you touch the face and what we've all learned, that's very, that's how a lot of things get transmitted of, again, we're not, not just COVID's, but colds and flus and, and that can maybe

how to eliminate some of those things. And so that, those are some things. So I'm more cautious about that. Like I've looked about that, like, you know, even on the road, do we need to have everyone, you know, in a, when we have a buffet, I like the fact this year we had one server wearing gloves. None of our players could touch the things. The person served the food to them because that way we all weren't touching the handles. I thought that was smart. I mean, how about there's a lot of things that I think we can learn from this to maybe continue to keep us healthier moving forward to avoid little things. Because look, COVID's a big thing, but little things of, like nobody likes to get a cold or a sore throat or a sign of,

his headache or things or that because it's also it goes hand in hand with the meetings right like you're being smarter about your time being smarter about your health like like like really smart people look back at things and go like look overall it sucked right sucked but you know early on you got more time with your kids than you ever had before yeah so it's it's little things really right like that's it's those little things and it's not any it's not different from learning from bad seasons or learning from good seasons, learning from jobs that didn't work out, I had being being really, really smart about it. Okay, this officially becomes the last one. Where do you see yourself in five years? Well, Doug, I love my job. And I'm not just saying that. I mean,

if you ask, I love what I do. I have tremendous enthusiasm, excitement, passion. I love being around people. I love Georgia Tech. I love the people I work for and the work with and everyone in the athletic department. I love Atlanta. I'm also a realist. I know you, you know, there's, you know, can you ever stay somewhere so long? I mean, I get all that. But for five, for me, I hope I can continue to be a head coach as long as the good Lord allows and the athletic directors of schools allow me to continue to be a head coach. I love. I love doing what I do. And so I hope in five years,

whether that's Georgia Tech, I hope it's Georgia Tech, I really do. That means we've had some good success or elsewhere that I'm still, I want to continue to be a head coach as long as I can. Because I love my, I hope I can be a head coach when I'm 75. And I,

and I, I don't want to be a guy that's going to, I hope, I'm 40. You know how long that is? I hope you, that means you've been a head coached in 31. Like you'd be Beaheim territory.

And I, And I hope that's the case. I would like that to be the case. And I really, I can, I, I love what I do. And I'm 43 now. If I could get another 30 years as a head coach or go to 75, go another 32 years, it would be, it would be really cool. I would have no, I really enjoy what I do. I know you want to beat Coach K.

Last time you played Coach K, that would be very cool. That would be cool. That would be cool. I hope we can get a lot of wins this upcoming season. Or in year five, we've had a lot of wins going, five years from now, we've had a lot of wins and some more ACC championships too. That would be also, that would be cool too. You've been more than generous with your time.

I really appreciate it. Hopefully I'll see you at the Peach Jam. The meantime, have a great day. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Doug. My thanks to Josh Pasterner, I thought that was as deep and thorough as anybody can be on the entirety of their career.

Pretty awesome stuff. Remember, the Doug Gottlieb show is daily, 3 to 6 Eastern Time, 12 to 3 Pacific, Fox Sports Radio, IHeart Radio app, or on Series XM, a 27, or 203. In the meantime, continue listening, tell a friend, download, subscribe, rate, write a review. I'm Doug Gottlieg. This is All Ball. Most of us have a favorite song or soundtrack as motivation for when we need it most.

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