The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball: Pt.2 - South Carolina Head Coach Frank Martin on Early Cancellations, Recruiting/Coaching Michael Beasley, South Carolina Final Four

Episode Date: November 28, 2020

In this episode, Doug finishes up the second part of his in-depth interview with South Carolina Head Coach Frank Martin. They discuss the wave of early college hoop cancellations, the behind the scenes of recruiting and coaching Michael Beasley to Kansas State, their unexpected Elite Eight run, why he didn't end up getting the Miami job when it opened up, and how he turned around South Carolina made a Final Four. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is the latest version of all ball, the podcast everybody is talking about. Yeah, sometimes we talk other sports, not just basketball, but, man, I just love getting these basketball stories. If you've downloaded All Ball in the past, you know that I had part one with Frank Martin. And we recorded part two shortly thereafter. And then I recorded the Ron Baker podcast, which was about his life, his upbringing, his story, his succession at or ability to have success at Wichita State after being a walk on, redshirting his first year, getting all the way to the Final Four. What really happened with Greg Marshall when he was there? I mean, it was amazing. And then we talked about his NBA journey and,

what he's doing now and what his next phase. It looks like he's going to shut down his basketball career because of three surgeries in four years. Download that one if you've missed it, but you know that we had Frank Martin. And if you haven't heard part one of Frank Martin, you want to download that. It's amazing because we took you up to the spot where he got the Kansas State job and his story for what he, his reaction when he was actually off of the job is where we left off. So this is part two, a different discussion and really, really interesting perspective,

of a guy who's now been a head coach for over a decade, two schools, why he left, why he hasn't become the head coach of Miami, where he's a legend, and what the next wave is at South Carolina program that he finally got to the Final Four. And plus, what he learned from Kansas State that he believes allowed him to take that. Remember, they got to the lead eight at Kansas State, got to the Final Four in South Carolina,

what he learned from that Elite Eight game, and what it was like to win that Elite Eight game in Madison Square Garden in New York City. Let's get to it. Here's my second part of a discussion with Frank Martin. All right, as promised, Frank Martin returns. And I really, again, I really, really appreciate your time. I'll take us back to where we left off.

But let me start with kind of the news of the day. We're getting Duke's first game postponed, Baylor, Arizona State, not headed to Mohegan's son. Where are you in your program on this season getting off? underway on time. Yeah, I never bought into this, all these so-called neutral site, fake bubbles that were created with multiple teams. We're all in different leagues. We have different testing protocols that were being mandated to live under based on our leagues. And I wasn't into that.

I mean, we're in one in Kansas City next weekend. I'm hoping it goes through. But I think the safest thing to do is just to schedule single games. And then at the end of the day, I've been a big advocate from the beginning, Doug. I believe we should play non-league games. But I've been a big advocate that as a conference, we had to fight to protect our 18 games. We had to create windows to play makeup games if need be. because it's hard to control non-league games,

but you do control your league games. And we had to figure out a way to do that. And in the SEC, we created a window at the end of the year where we can make up games. So it's par for the course for this year, man. It's, hey, Doug, and remember this, back in the summer, one of the reasons Greg Sanky started football when he did in September, is because all the experts said,

late November's a problem. It's coming again. And, you know, and so we're trying to make this happen. A lot of people have worked really hard to make it happen. We just, we can overreact to when these moments take place. So in terms of preparing, though, for Kansas City next week, you prepare as if it's going to happen. And it's like a daily update on everything. Like, do you get from the folks in Kansas City, do you get an update, from the teams you're going to play, do you get an update?

Or you simply worry about yourself? How does that work? All the above. All the above. And like, for example, example, this week, like games start this week, we get tested, NCC mandated three times a week, rather than one time a week before this week. And now this week, we go Monday, Tuesday, Thursday is SEC testing.

Then we get off a plane in Kansas City on Friday. Then to be part of that tournament, we got to get tested Friday and Saturday. So we'll be tested five times this week. So it's, you know, it's just part of the, part of the, listen, we've all, signed up, coaches, players. No one's forcing anyone to do this. I mean, I can't speak for other coaches, but I know I've spoken to the guys of my peers that I do communicate with. The players want to play. We're trying to make it work. It takes a lot of self-accountability to put this together. A lot of people putting in a lot of time to try and make it happen. And at the end of the day,

we can't control it. I mean, it's, it's just, it's something that's there. And when, when, when, unfortunately, these moments take place, we just got to pray that the, that people are safe, that they don't get grabbed by this virus in a hard way. And, and if we can get games in, just celebrate the games we get in. That's, that's what the season should be about. Okay, so let's, let's go back, part one, where we left you, the president and the athletic director at Kansas State offer you the job and offer Delante to be

the highest paid. You're the lowest paid head coach in the Big 12 and $600 grand. Delante would be the highest paid assistant at $400,000. They said, do you need to take a minute? And you said, yes, you need to take a minute. You go outside. You're like, oh, you can't be. And you talked about your wives and how you live next to each other.

And it's pretty awesome, right? Okay. So you walk back in, you take the job, then what happens? Take the job. We agreed to have a press. This was on a Thursday. Excuse me, on a Friday. Agree to have a press conference on Monday.

As soon as we're done with the, you know, the formalities hugging and high-fiving and thanking each other, president, the AD, me, Delante, we went home. I shared a moment with the rest of our staff. And then got on a plane. Delante and I got in a school plane and flew to Memphis to go meet with Michael Beasley. Mike was in Memphis playing with USA basketball. And we went there, met with him, then turned around, met with Jacob Poland. And then at the time, that was a live recruiting weekend.

So we went to the old real deal on the Hill AAU tournament. in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and recruited there all day Saturday, all day Sunday, flew back home. And then this is where it kind of got interesting. This is a powerful moment of my life, Doug. Get back for Monday. And the paperwork that was presented to me said I can be terminated at any time for 50 grand. And I said, I didn't shake hands on that. And I said, I told you guys, if you guys are committed to me, you believe I can do the job.

I'm in. If not, no feelings hurt, man. I don't want to be a token guy. I don't live my life that way. I don't want to be the guy that's protected because of somebody else. I want to stand on my own two feet when the moment comes. And I was told the press conference was later, like a couple hours later, said, well, Frank, it is what it is.

And I didn't take it personal. There's no ill will. But I told Tim Weiser, the athletic director, I said, I can't sign that. That's not what I wanted. I can't do it. He says, well, you're going to have to coach without a contract because that's what it is. And I said, well, if you want to introduce me as your coach, let's go. I'm ready.

And I'm willing to do it. And if you don't want me to be your coach, I understand. Had it already been leaked to the media, had they already reporting Frank Martin, just giving me an ex-a-coach coach? Yep, yep. So, Tim said, well, you're the guy. We just got to figure this contract out as we go along. And I coached the whole year without a contract.

Now, were you paid at, what rate were you paid at the first? At 600. But, you know, you do sign that MOU or whatever that thing's called, the memorandum of understanding. So the salary was understood. but there was not a contract in place as to, if I would have been terminated, they could have fired me the next day. They could have fired me December 1st and not paid me a dime.

But I just didn't agree with signing something that's not what I agreed to. And Tim Weiser understood that. And one of the most powerful moments I've ever had professionally was we beat Southern Cal in the first of the NCAA tournament. And as I'm walking to the lock, room. Tim Weiser standing outside the locker room and he says to me, I've never been prouder of a man than I am of you right now. I'm so happy for you. Whenever this ride's over, we'll sit down and, you know, we'll figure out the contract thing and whatever it is that you

need, we'll get done. And I appreciate that Tim Weiser's become a dear friend of mine because he stood strong into what he believed, and I stood strong into what I believed, but it didn't make us dislike each other. On the contrary, it got us to a much closer place. No, it's one of the things that's unique about you is that you don't just say it. Lots of people say it and pay it lip service,

you actually do it. And I think it can catch people off guard at times, leaving high school a successful, because you did not like what was happening in high schools in Miami, and you became really disgusted with the progress or lack thereof. You know, and then just like you told, you told Bob Huggins,

like, look, if you ever need me, call me in ecology. Like, do you actually say what you mean and then you do it or you don't do it because you said it and that's what you actually mean. And that's not how most people operate. Let me go back real quick.

Yep. You walk into Michael Beasley's hotel room. Where did you guys? Because I know Delante, and B's had a long history. Correct. What was your history in terms of his knowledge of you? Because when guys recruit a guy, you know, they know other guys and staff,

but there's the head coach and then there's the guy who's the point man. What was, what was that meeting like? Yeah, I mean, I got to understand. My high school days, I was, you know, real tight with Curtis Malone. And I knew that Delante and Mike were tied to the new rope. I mean, Mike to this day considers Delante's big brother. And people forget that Delante's real brother, DeMar Johnson, played for hugs at Cincinnati.

And that's where that relationship was formed. They had nothing to do with Michael Beasley. It was a Delante hugged relationship came from way before Michael Beasley. But no, everyone understood. That was Delante's guy. And the way Hugs does it, and it's the way I do it. and it's the way I do it now. There's a point person in a recruitment,

but those players know you're coming to play for us. You're not coming here to speak to him and no one else. And so we, you know, we, we had a great relationship. Mike and I did. It wasn't like Hugg's relationship with him. It wasn't like Delante's relationship with him. So I had to go sell myself to Mike now as the head coach. It's going to manage you, not hug,

me and you're possibly going to be the first pick of the draft. And so we had to go there and do it in person. We did in the hotel lobby, by the way, not in his room because they had roommates and they didn't want to be invading other people's space. And, and, and you know, Doug, people talk about tampering. I want to talk about, and he had signed his letter of intent. You want to talk about tampering during that week now? I mean, it was embarrassing.

I confronted a bunch of coaches. after the fact. They let them know like, man, I can't believe I get my opportunity and you guys are established dudes and you're doing this. Like, you know, but that's,

it is what it is. What was it like to coach him? He had an incredible year. But his, the persona that I think he gives off is he's very laid back. Yeah. Very laid back.

He's a little goofy. And he likes to play. play, but you, especially at Kansas State, I would say you're the opposite of laid back. What was, what was that like? Well, you know, Doug, that's one of the reasons why if you called me and you said, hey, we got to do a third podcast for another hour. I'm signing up because a lot of that attention that we grabbed that year was created by you on television.

You remember that game of Colorado where, you know, you said you were in the room right next door to me at half time and you can hear the paint melting from my screaming in there. And then you did a game at at K State later on the year. You named it the octagon of doom. I did not name it the octagon. I thought it was you. Okay. So here's how it went down. This is a true story. There are two Marriots. I think there are two Marriots in Manhattan. There's like a courtyard by Marriott and then there's a downtown Marriott. Right.

And I roll into town, fly into Kansas City, I do my radio show. And then I made like record time. Like it was one of those supposed to take two and a half and it might have taken a buck 50, right? I'm jamming and I'm excited. And, you know, and I believe you had invited me to dinner. And I'm like, I don't think I can make it. And so I come jamming into town. And I pull in and I am one of these, I may fly by the seat of my pants.

Just put it in my email where I'm staying. And I oftentimes don't. look at it until I'm actually in the town, you know, and I remember looking Marriott. So I pull into the Marriott and I go in a check in and the guy at the front was very nice, but he's like, Mr. Gowley, we don't have room for you. And I'm also very cheap. I like things to be direct billed and I'm lazy about doing expense reports. I'm like, what do you mean? I could have just, you know, give him the credit card, $125,000, whatever expense it. I was like, so I'd look at my email and I said, since it's right here, Marriott, they're like, no, no, that's the courtyard by

Mary it that's down whatever. And I was like, oh, so I'm walking out and one of the other guys that works at hotel is like, hey, you're doing the show, you're doing the game with the octagon tomorrow? Like, what? The octagon. The octagon of doom. And I said, what was that? He's like, that's the, we're calling Bramledge, the octagon of doom.

It's like, that's awesome. Awesome. So I go and that night, I, I said like, you know, it's the octagon of doom. and it was a great, and the interesting thing about Bramledge was when I played there, Asbury was the coach, weren't very good. They had a guy named Mani Dice who was, he was a monster. And we won a very close game. And I remember playing there thinking, you know, this place is full.

It's pretty good. And my dad had coached at K State. And when he was there, they coached they played it Ahern, right? Yep. And that was like the Gallagher Iba of Kansas, small pure, track goes around it. You know, you pull out back the bleachers, right?

There was an indoor track. And up until you got, up until hugs got there, really, people hated Bramwich. They just didn't like it. You know, they missed Ahern.

And it was, and obviously you guys got it going. Anyway, so it was Oktana Dube. So I get back. And as my schedule was back then, I would do a game. And then I'd come and I'd land.

And I go and then I'd do studio the whole weekend. And so the whole weekend, I was, every time they would talk about you guys, I would say octagon of doom. Somehow I got credit for something that I did not do. I would gladly take the credit. But then like Fran does the game on Big Monday, like you play on the road on Saturday.

Fran does the game and I had texted Fran. Hey, Franny, they're calling it the Octagon of Doom. He's like, I love that. I love that. And so I think even Fran like gave me the credit and that wasn't me. And so all of a sudden, then there's octagon signs and octagon shirts. And it was,

It was amazing. But like, look, you were a guy who you held guys to a standard of, of work. And it's one of the things that I believe is that most guys, most kids, they want to be coached. And they want to be coached hard, or they want to be coached fair. You coach them hard and fair. And I think sometimes television didn't really do you justice, right? Because they got the look and the stare. But anytime I was running, your players loved you because you were fair to them, right?

Like you weren't just MFing them to MF them, right? You were like a father. who held them accountable and so many guys don't have that in their lives. And even if they do, their dad's like, you better listen to him or I'm going to come up there, ring your neck. But when you get on to Beasley, right, and that was, this is in your first year and you're trying to prove yourself, how did he react? Here's the greatest bees behind the scene story of all time. This says a lot.

Before I say the story, he is the easiest real good player I've ever coached. All he wanted to do was. please. He wanted you to help him and he let you coach him. He didn't fight you. But he laid back. He to this day laid back. It's just who he is. It's his DNA. But Doug, we're getting ready to play Sacramento State. And Brad Underwood, my assistant at the time, it says, Scout. So we're in the locker room. It's the first game of the year. And they're no good.

You know, the first month leading into the first game. My first game ever as a head coach, I've studied Sacramento State as a We're getting ready to play Kansas on national TV. And so they're not very good. But we got nine first year players. Eight of them were freshmen. The ninth was Denny Clement and he was redshirting. And sorry, seven freshmen, a juco transfer in Deni Clemente.

So, you know, I'm nervous. I want to make sure that, you know, head coach, Division I basketball, a power five school, I've got to have my team prepared. That's what I, you know, get paid to do. And so Brad's showing film. And we're in the locker room. And I, you know, I usually sat away from the camera. So I'm looking around the room and Mike is sitting there.

And he starts. And I just, I don't say a word until he's completely out. So when he's completely out, I'm like, stop, Brad, stop. Mike, stand up. And he looks at me like, and he's like, I'm like, Mike, don't say a word. because then you're going to call me a liar, then I'm going to be mad. Stand up.

So I made him watch film standing up like a little kid in kindergarten to make sure everyone knows that he wasn't paying attention. Number two, when you stand up, you're not going to fall asleep, so now he's going to watch. So now we go through the rest of the Scott and report,

and now we're walking to the court and Bramledge. And from our locker room, it's like this walk up that tunnel. And he's like a little kid, man. I'm just telling you he just wants to please. And I'm walking, and he comes running up from behind and puts his arm around me. And he says, Coach Frank, man, I've never done that film stuff, man. I got to learn.

You got to be patient with me. I said, Mike, I told you that if you listen to me, I'll help you. But you got to listen to me. And he says, Coach Frank, I understand. But were you watching those guys? Which one of those guys is going to guard me? And I was like, Mike, shut up. Get on the court.

Let's practice. When I took them out of the game, we're all 30. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hart Radio app, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations,

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on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

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We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Open your free I Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. He had 36 points, 24 rebounds. And he comes by me, puts his arm around me. He says, I got you, man. I got you. That's Mike Beasley, man. He's loyal.

He's honest. He's simple. He cares. You know, I'll say one last thing on Mike. I'll talk to you about anything you want to about Mike, but the world of basketball has tried to paint him as a failure because he hasn't lived up to that number two draft pick kind of career. He is an unbelievable father.

He cares for his children like there's no tomorrow. And he has finally found who he is. He's been searching for who he is for a long time. And unfortunately, he don't get to do that behind the scenes. He gets to do that in front of the world, him because he's a basketball player. I got picked number two. So I'm really proud of him, man.

He's become a hell of a man. He takes on his responsibilities in a great way. You coming to bed, hon? Yep, honey, I'll be right there. Just got to turn out the light. Ow! Ow! Some things never change.

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at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States service and the ad council how did you handle you know uh your guys first road trip you go to uh Orlando you lose to George Mason right yeah then you come home you lose to uh Oregon uh then you know you you go to Madison Square Garden and you lost I think to Notre Dame that's correct and here you are you're the guy who the assistant and you got no you have no contract and you have no contract And look, you're replacing Bob Huggins and there's the old, well, he's coaching Bob Huggins players.

Like, yeah, it's not actually. But again, you know how the whispers work. How did you handle that? How did you just keep everybody together? Yeah, I mean, I've never been one to pay attention to people that are not in it with me. And I goes back to Shakey Rodriguez, man. When, you know, growing up under him at Miami High School, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, He buttoned down the hatches now and it was all about us and keeping the message consistent about, you know, with us.

Back then, it would have been a little harder if social media would have been as popular as it is now. Yeah. Because it's so hard to keep everyone on point and on message because there's so many voices. But they, we had a loyal staff, Delante Hill, loyal is a day as long. Brad Underwood, Matt Figer, our strength coach. Here's where Huggins really helped me. And this is where Bob Huggins does not get credit for the man that he is. He knew that he could have taken our strength coach.

He could have taken Delante. Then Jacob Pulling. Bill Walker. He took their strength coach. I don't remember. He worked me out. I was sore for like two weeks. He's the real deal.

You guys, you went in there and you got it in with him. He's the real deal. But Huggs could have taken him. Could have taken Delante. Mike Beasley would have gone to West Virginia. Bill Walker would have gone to West Virginia. And instead, Hugs grabbed all those dudes and said, it's Frank's turn. I'll be okay.

I'm going to be all right. I'm going home. It's Frank's turn. You guys got to look out for Frank right now. And those guys were troopers, man. We all lived, Doug, it's the most amazing thing. We lived in a brand new development that we all bought homes and we're the assistant coaches.

It was our strength coach. I was his next door neighbor, a guy from the Army, Andy Astley, who's our operations guy to this date, and Delante Hill. And that's it. There were no more homes in the development. It was a brand new development in the outskirts of Manhattan. So we spent all our time in our backyards,

just trying to figure out how to fix the world's problems. And in that way, we became really, really a close-knit group under hugs. So when hugs left, that loyalty stayed true. And just, you know, powerful group of guys. And then the players, man, I can't, I can't, you know, Bill Walker was hard to coach. Bill and I butted heads a lot. But that's good players, man. You're going to butt heads with good players. And but at the end of the day, they were awesome, man. Those guys were awesome and they fought to the end. You beat Kansas at home. That was, I mean, that was, that was, that was when it was, it's over. for as long as he wants to be the coach, right?

Because I don't think, had they never beaten Kansas at home in Bramledge? It had been 25 years. But they hadn't. So again, for people. Not at Bramage, correct. Right. So Bramledge Coliseum is, it's an octagon. But before that, all the wins were at Ahern.

And when they built a new building that everybody hated. But they'd never, you'd never won in that building and hadn't won at home against your in-state rival in 20. years. What was that moment like for you? Well, to this day, there's a lot of media folks get mad at me because I don't let freshmen speak to the media the first semester. I let, I turned them loose after the first semester. And the big reason why is that summer before that year, we're at a function in Topeka, Kansas. And, uh, the media attacked Beasley. Mike was there. And, uh, the media attacked them. And he told them, man, we're going to be Kansas here.

there and in Africa. So then they come running to me. Hey, Mike Beasley said this. And I was like, well, that's why we recruited him. We want guys that believe that we're going to be Kansas every time we line up and play. That's as a coach. You want your players thinking like that. But privately, I went back and I said to my,

went back and told Tom Gilbert SID at the time, hey, freshmen are not talking to the media for semester. That's right. Listen, listen, I was a red shirt, junior and we were picked to win the league in 98 99 we had a we were picked dead last year before when I got there and we won the South. I was back when there's split up and sports illustrated asked me you know like why do you think you're going to win the league and I said we got better guards you know and and uh you know I got I didn't get to talk to the media for like 30 months or whatever

but I mean what do you like are you supposed to think that somebody's better than you? And by the way, we did have better guards. All right. But that wasn't, that that wasn't received all that well up in the corner office of Gallagher Iba Arena. Okay. Obviously, it, it became a thing, right? The octagon became a thing. Your program became a thing.

You know, you were able from Denny Clemente, Jacob Pullen, you had, you had so many players that became kind of legendary for. the it's one thing to have a successful year. It's another thing to build a successful program and have a successful culture. When did you feel like it changed and there wasn't? Because you get down with your first year and your AD says, I got you. You redo your contract at the end of that year. Was it when we redid it, I was still, when we redid it, I was still the lowest paid guy in the Big 12th. You just had a, you just had a heft year buyout, right?

So, so, so when did it, what did it change when he? left. When did your feeling about your relationship with the university with the athletic department change? My relationship with them was always great, but there was that uncertainty about a contract. And but when Tim Weiser was waiting for me, John Weifold, who was the long time president at the university, hired Bill Snyder, hired Bob Huggins, hired me, unbelievable man. His vice president, and Bob Krauss, love sports, unbelievable man. Those guys were in my corner. I knew that.

Tim Weiser was in my corner. Unfortunately, Tim Weiser is my boss directly, so that's why I interacted with 99% of the time. And the whole contract thing was a Tim Weiser, Frank Martin thing, but no one ever knew. I didn't bring it up. He didn't bring it up. We just went about our business,

and that's why that moment, when Tim was waiting for me outside the locker room in Omaha, Nebraska, when we beat Southern Cal, and he said what he said to me, it just reinforced to me what a good man he was. Because, you know, he never allowed my not wanting to sign the contract, whether he agreed or I agreed, regardless, never held that against me. Never, never, on the contrary, helped me every step of the way in that journey that first year, which I used to call it the circus, because that first year, Me, I'm a different dude. No one knows who I am.

Mike, Bill, those guys brought the circus to town. And it was just unbelievable every day that we lost early, trying to hold that together. Then we started winning. But when I walked in the locker room that day, after Tim Weiser said that to me, I got in front of the players and I could not get a word out. I was overcome with emotion.

because I realized like, okay, now this is my coaching home. This is where my college career was born and this is my coaching home. So that was the moment right there. The third year was the big year. That was the elite eight year, right? That was, but again, like you were, you were known for having Beasley, but that didn't become your best team. What was it about the third year that allowed you guys to, you know, you won 29.

games and you just you got better and better and better. Well, at the end of our first year, then everyone predicted, well, this guy's a hot head. He don't know what he's doing. And now Mike Beasley's gone and Bill Walker's gone. They're done. They're going to fire them. They're no good. And then we had a pretty good non-conference run my second year.

But then we start Big 12th play, O and 4. And here it comes. The end of the earth and da-da-da-da-da. And Denny Clemente, who had redshirted in my first year, we had just lost in Nebraska to go o' and four. And Denny Clemente loses his mind in the locker room. Like he hated to lose. And here's the smallest guy on our team with taking over control with his personality of, you know, all the whatever, the possibility of us falling apart and not allowing it.

And he single-handedly turned our team around that year. And we ended up 9 and 7 in league play, just missed. It's the only time in my career, Doug, I've ever told the team, yo, we're going into a must win. And it was late in the year. We went into GIA and Oklahoma State. You know, Sean was the coach. They were good.

And I told the team, you guys want to go to the NCAA tournament? We have to win today. But we had another game left after that. And we went in there and fought our tails off. And people don't, the average person that don't know college basketball, they don't understand how hard it is to win at GIA, when that place is packed, rocking, and rolling. It's ridiculous how hard it is.

But we lose a two-point game. And then we got beaten the first Toronto Conference tournament by Texas, who we had beaten earlier in the year. and we get left out of the NCAA tournament. And Jacob, Poland, and Denny Clemente come up to me maybe a week after we lost. We went to the NIT, lost in the second round at San Diego to San Diego State. Who would have known that that San Diego State team was going to become what they became moving forward? But Denny Clemente and Jacob came up to me and they were like, hey, when we get back in the gym?

And I said, man, we just finished. We got to get back in the gym. And away we went. And those two guys kind of took the team, the bull by the horn, for lack of better words. We had a guy redshirting that year, Curtis Kelly, who's unbelievably talented. So now my third year, he becomes eligible.

And then the Jamar Samuels is of the world, Dominique Sutton's of the world, now they're third year guys. Luis Colon's a senior. Denny's a senior. Our freshman were Rodney McGruder, Wally Judge. I mean, we had really good players that year. And so we had experience, guys that understood me, I understood them,

and really talented incoming players. And away we went. That year was when that team lost a butler in the elite eight, that's the, you know, when you lose a game, you're not supposed to lose. It's a loss you never forget. That's the most. the most frustrating moment for me as a coach because I've never

I had never been around a team that worked as hard as those kids did to stick together from their freshman year to that moment when easily it could have fallen apart when the whole world said your coach don't know what he's doing you can't win without Michael Beasley you can't win about Bill Walker yet they held

that thing together and with three minutes to go we're up one to go to the final four and we just couldn't close the deal. If you could do one thing different personally from that game, what would you do? The day before. It's the only time in my career that I have not practiced the guys.

You remember the Sweet 16 game was a double overtime Xavier game, which was 103 to 96 or some crazy game. Unbelievable. Up and down, double overtime. You're trying to save their legs. The game ends at 1 o'clock in the morning. Right.

And then of course, I'm sure you started, You had the early game on Sunday? The game ends at 1 o'clock in the morning. And then they give us practice time. Yeah. 1 p.m. the next day. Yeah.

And you have an hour and a half media as well that's mandatory. And you got to do media, all that stuff. So I get the practice and I'm like the whole night, you don't sleep. You're an adrenaline at that time of years of coach. I mean, you take a nap for an hour and a half, two hours, coffee and let's go. And the whole night I'm saying, how do I manage for? I've never been through this. Stug. You know what I mean? As a coach, I've never been through this. So I'm saying,

how do I manage this moment? How do I manage this moment? I mean, and those kids had practiced hard, laid it on the line, played hard as heck. And then they announced NCWA announces because the other game is West Virginia, on that day, the other final four game that day is West Virginia, Kentucky. Well, they're not tipping them off at noon, East Coast. They're tipping them off at 5 p.m. East Coast. So they say, all right, the team on the West Coast over there in Salt Lake, it's Butler,

K-State. No one's watching that game, so let's send them early. Plus it's altitude. And the altitude. And the altitude. So we just, and Butler was good. Man, were they physical? Holy cow, were they physical?

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Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

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and need them in the thigh. How Danny finished that game? If we had won to go to the final four, I don't think Danny Clemente plays next week and his thigh was so bad. You know, it's interesting. I did, they had a tournament in Hawaii that year, and I was watching them practice,

and one of the other coaches came up to me. It was at the University of Hawaii, that Diamondhead game tournament. And one of their coaches popped in. He's like, you see Butler? I said, yeah, he said, they look like, they may look like schoolboys, but they hit you like sailors. He's the most physical team I've ever seen.

They were the most physical playing in the Big 12, Kansas, you know, Missouri's, the Nebraska's. You play some physicality now. Yeah. And when they were by far the most physical team we played all year. Their guard play, Ronald Norad, uh, the, uh, six four kid from Kentucky. that's still in the NBA.

Oh, my God, I can't remember his name right now. Then Gordon Hayward and Matt Howard. And then they had the young man that passed away was young and a big seven-footer. And they had. Yeah, Andrew Smith. Yeah, they had a power forward who was from Miami. I can't remember. I can't remember his name right now.

But they were so physical. And they were good. Physical were really good players. Shelvin Mack, that's the guard. Shelvin Mack is. But I told Tom Izzo, because then they beat us, and Izzo calls me on whatever, Monday, Tuesday. That's who they play in the final four. And he says, Frank, what do you think?

I said, Tom, it's the most physical team we've played all year. You know, and I don't like saying this. I'm going to say it, but I don't say this. But it's like the officials, it was like Little Butler. No, totally. No, listen. They knocked a crap out of you. I almost said something else.

Yes. No, it's okay. It's a podcast. You can say. And I like physical. You know my teams. No, no, no, no. I understand.

It's like, look, this has been, this is the age old basketball argument, right? The big guys always get called for the fouls, whereas the little guys, you can be way more physical and way, way dirtier because whether officials want to, want to admit it or not, they give the little guy the benefit of the doubt. And Butler kind of has, they got this kind of choir boy look to him. And Brad's got this choir boy look to him. And Brad's got this choir boy. It looks like he's 12 look to them.

Meanwhile, they're kicking the hell out of you, moving on every screen. And, I mean, it is, you know, it is, it is, it's absolute warfare. Reclaim your Saturdays. Call 1-800 got junk and two smiling. Happy people will magically appear at your front door. They'll be driving a clean, shiny truck. And they'll be wearing snappy, happy uniforms. All you have to do is point, point, point, point.

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Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. Visit NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. Brought to you by Nita and the Ad Council. Okay, fast forward to the Miami job comes open. Yep. Why don't you take it?

It's not offered. Why not? You have to ask them. Frank leaves. And you had to think like, okay, I'm going to get the call, right? This is all I'm going to tell you, Doug. I'm not going to tell you who. I got a call at midnight.

This is happening. And I was, I said, listen, man, I can't get. This is not a job that I can get in the middle. There's too many feelings here. This can't be a let's go back and forth stuff. You know what I make. If my whole staff, if you can't take care of my whole staff, I can't do this. I got to call 7 o'clock the next morning, said, we can do it.

And then I got a call later that day, say, forget it. I'm not happening. Why? You got to ask them. I'm not, it's not fair for me to share, you know, things that happen in private that I'm aware of because I don't know if they know I'm aware of them. I'm just, I'm too connected down there. I mean, I know that. That's why, that's why all of us, we were like, all, like, all that's going to happen.

I mean, I'm not just connected at the University of Miami. I mean, somebody throws a rock somewhere in the city. I'm going to find out who did it. And so that's why I'm, that's why I can't speak on it because it's not like they, they know that I know. I know what happened. They don't know what happened. That's, that's something that that you should ask the leadership there, you know,

what went down. Why South Carolina? Why did you make them move? What's the, yeah? real story behind it. No, the way I made public was real. My last year at K-State, my mother-in-law was going and battling breast cancer. And it was really, really hard on my wife because she couldn't leave.

I'm in the middle of the season. So she can't go to New York. We got young, young kids. And it's the first time I thought about, it's the first time I ever sat back and said, it might be time to get the family closer to family. And my mom's in Miami and my sister's in New York. My wife's family's in New York. And so, you know, it's the only time.

Everyone put a big deal behind the scenes that me and John Curry, who's our athletic director, did not get along. That's not true. That was the story that other people wanted to want to. Yeah, that's what everyone put out there. That's not true. John worked his tail off. John raised money.

We at K State had a budget of 43 million, athletic department budget of 43 million. Our facilities were awful. John came in there and he changed the way of thinking. John grew that place. Now in the meantime, John and I are trying to figure each other out. I mean, I'm different.

You know, he had to learn to understand me. And so we're right in the middle of our relationship building. And I saw how hard he was working. And then I'm going through that personal kind of moment right there. And, you know, Doug, it was, here's the one thing. This is why I don't chase jobs. I'm very as loud as obnoxious as I can be on a sideline. I'm very soft-hearted when it's time to make decisions.

If I open my heart, you can throw me into next week. As long as I don't let my heart get involved. And Eddie Fogler, who I know you, you know Eddie. I trust Eddie. Eddie's a longtime friend. Eddie had the search here at South Carolina. Eddie's a real, is, but at the time he was. my AD, real good friend with Eric Hyman, who's the athletic director here. And Eddie was the coach

here. And Eddie still lived in Columbia, South Carolina. And Eddie called me. We lost in the NCAA tournament. Eddie called me and said, if you want the job, it's your job. So I said, all right, I need you to tell me, what's, is this something I need to listen to? And he said, I mean, Frank, you know what you got at K-State, but I'm just telling you, the AD at South Carolina wants you. you're the guy and he'd love to meet with you. And then Eddie made me understand quality of life, the community, the job that he thinks it could be great. And the one thing, Doug, that I never ever in my, K-State folks were incredible.

I mean, we had that thing. And it was the best team we had coming back that when I made the decision to leave. That team the following year, give Bruce Weber, give Bruce Weber all. the credit that he came in there, he bought in, he earned their trust and he got them to play his way and they won the Big 12th. But it was hard for me to leave those guys behind. But when I met with Eric Hyman, he said, you're the guy. And you are the guy that I believe in. And he made me feel that way. And the one thing that maybe in the back of my mind I could never shake is that I always got the K-State job because I had hugs as players.

The reason we won was, you know, hugs turned it, not me. And that I got the job because of Mike. And you'd always be viewed as the guy who was in the mailroom. So in the back of my mind, that kind of was there. Secondly, Doug, I'm just wired kind of stupid sometimes. Like nothing, I've never had anything easy in my life. My mother and my grandmother, they've never had anything. in their life. So I could have probably stayed patient. And the day I decided to take another job,

taking a job that had a better profile in South Carolina. But I was like, this guy believes in me, man. This guy just made me feel like I'm the guy. And if I can go there, then it's perfectly, it is almost the exact midpoint between New York City and Miami, Florida. So in my mind, now I start thinking a little deeper like things are meant to be. My wife didn't want to live in Florida. I had no interest. If I was going to leave the cold weather of Kansas, I did not want to go to the cold weather somewhere else. I wanted to go to warmer weather.

And I said, maybe it's meant to be. And I said, you know what? Let's try it, man. And I did it. And it was a combination of all those points that I just brought up. and here's a great story now. And before you ask me the next question, so now, first game I ever coach is South Carolina.

We're playing Wisconsin, Milwaukee, 18,000-seat arena, 3,000 people at the game. So it's empty. There's a gentleman sitting across the court on courtside seats with his two boys. Not all the court-side seats are filled. Second half, we're down 15. his cell phone starts ringing.

So he answers his cell phone. The game's going on. I'm watching him on his cell phone. And he says, hey, I'm at the game. New coach, same stuff. This team's awful. Let me call you when the game's over. I turn around and I look at Underwood and Matt Figger,

and I said, did you guys just see that? And they're sitting there in disbelief. We all heard the conversation. And I said, what have we gotten ourselves into? And they both looked at me and they said, we, what have you gotten us into? That was first game ever in South Carolina. I mean, like I remember when you had my career that year, I did one of your games. You're like, trust me, this is my kind of guy.

But I looked at that team and I thought, everybody thought the same thing. Like, we're a long way from Frank McGuire, right? We are a long way from Frank McGuire. And as we know, there are teams in the SEC that offer a different level of scholarship. And then there's a different grant and aid program at some teams at least it's been portrayed that way. How do you go from there to when Carrera is a senior playing in the final four? Yeah, Doug, I tried to be patient when I got the job here in recruiting. first of all, nobody wanted to come play here.

That was any good. So I tried to take some guys that I knew because we had been recruiting before that were going to be loyal to me. And I took Michael Carrera and I took the two Lithuanian guys, Mendogas, Kachinas and Lamonis had, I can't say his last name.

I coach him for four years. I still can't say his last name. But I took those three guys because we had recruited all three at K-State, but I didn't have scholarship for them. And then there's a guy here in the program, Bruce Ellington. Football player. He immediately bought into me. And those four guys gave me players that I can trust and believe in.

And then Senderis Thornwell, the fall of my first year signs with us. He's a senior at O'Kill Academy. commits and signs with us. And that was kind of the nucleus and away we went. And then little by little, we signed better players and better players. And now you hit with PJ Dozier, McDonald's All American. And now. And it's interesting because I actually know a little bit more about state of South

Carolina because, God, I'm trying to think of his name. we played at Clemsden back in the day. But it was, we were all same year. Kevin Garnett's from South Carolina, right? Ray Allen graduate high school in South Carolina, right? The state of South Carolina actually produces good players. Oh, yeah. You're just unable to build a fence around the state because everybody comes in and gets them, you know?

Yep. And then it becomes, you know, then it becomes crazy. But PJ signifies a change, right? That signifies a, what is that moment like? though, to considering growing up, not even knowing if you wanted to coach and shaky tells you, I need you to help out in the JV, climbing the ladder, moving high school, going to Northeastern. As we talked about in first one, you know, you're at a cafe with your girlfriend who's now your wife answering the phone as hugs and says, I need you to go to Cincinnati, hugs gets fired.

He goes to K-State. You take the job with no real buyout, no contract. then you leave K-State on a whim, you go to South Carolina, when they hadn't won forever. Dave Odom's a good coach, he couldn't win it there, to taking them to the Final Four, was there a moment there that you remember that you were able to take in and understand

your own personal kind of a story in that magical ride? And you left out the year before the Final Four, which is Carras Senior Year. We set a school record for wins, won 25 games, 11 leagues, games and we got left out the NCAA tournament. And at the end of that year, I was like, I was like, I don't know if we can,

what more, what more can you do? And, you know, our school had not won an NCAA tournament game since 1972 at the time. So now here comes the final four year. And now we're rolling, man. We're playing well early. And I got a suspicendarius and we played six games without them. and then we had injury bug hit our team. PJ hurts his neck.

Rakem Felder, who was our freshman guard that had a heck of a run at the end of the year, hurts a knee. The other guard goes through a battle of mono early January. So we just get hit with the injury bug. But at the end of the year, I thought we started playing well again. And we went into the tournament. And the day it hit me, Doug, was the game between the Sweet 16 and the Elite 8 game at practice at Madison Square Garden. I'm at that practice, and all I could do is think back to that Butler game.

And I'm sitting there saying, wow, we're right back in that same moment again. And that's when it kind of hit me. Like, because at the time of K-State, I thought that was incredible being in that elite eight game. And now I'm sitting there on the court and it's early in practice and, you know, guys are shooting around or whatever. And I'm looking around and I'm in Madison Square Garden and I'm saying, we're playing to go to the final four. It's New York City, Frank McGuire, the Gamecocks, my wife, her family, my family. it's New York, the mecca of basketball, Madison Square Garden. This can't be happening to me.

How did this all happen? And we had, the players were, it was my birthday, the same day of my birthday. And the players have an incredible practice. And then when practice ends were in the middle, and as I start talking to them, they had arranged for the band to play happy birthday. And I left that arena that day. And I said, man, I'm lucky. Holy cow.

can't believe that this is happening. And then you play the game. And those kids, like they were all year, man, they wouldn't give in. They just kept fighting and fighting and we're down and fight and fight and and when we took the lead, they never relinquished the lead. And and then the buzzer sounds and it's Sinatra, who I love. And it's New York, New York. And and there are people grabbing me, they were trying to put that final four had on my head. And it was too small. I got big old melon and they couldn't fit it and they're like yanking it. Now I'm walking around the court.

I'm looking for my family. And I know he's a dear friend of yours. I end up hugging my wife, my mother, my children, and Darius Rucker. And they're all crying, snot coming out of their faces.

Darius is wiping his face on my shirt and then asking, I'm sorry, Frank. I just can't believe this is happening at my school. Powerful, powerful little 24-hour window for me there professionally and personally. What's left for you, right? Obviously, you want to win a national title. You want to get South Carolina back to the, but I got time for one more. Yeah.

What is, because you're only in your mid-50s, but you're starting to get to the sense of accomplishment. And there's a little bit different ease with how you approach so many of these situations. What's left for you personally and professionally at South Carolina and in the coaching profession? You know, Doug, I'm not chasing records. I'm not trying to, I don't have any college pedigree before I started coaching college basketball. I coached high school ball for a long time. So my whole how many wins and all that stuff and career record, all that stuff doesn't mean

anything to me. I'm really, I'm not driven by that. Never have. I don't believe I ever will. I just want to be happy. I want to trust the people I work for. I want to make sure that I'm the right person for the people I work for and work with. As long as I have that in place, I've never been a job chaser. I was a JV coach for nine years. If you can coach JV basketball at the same school for nine years, that means you're not chasing jobs anywhere. And, and, I, you know, I'm at peace, man. I just want to be around ball. I, as I've gotten older with social media, I love practice.

The games have gotten really, really hard because winning is really difficult. But everyone has an overreaction to winning and an overreaction to losing. So I've got to manage a locker room full of young people that are overly, you know, their emotions are. with that public wave for the most part, whether it's a good one or a bad one. So the games have gotten difficult. Hugg said it best when he says winning his relief, losing his misery. That's kind of what the season feels like.

Well, listen, I can't tell you how appreciative I know your time. We can do it part three whenever you want. Whenever you want, you just text me, we'll do it. But it's been amazing to be a friend along this journey. And I can't wait to see your team play whenever you play in Kansas City next week or whether you open up in Columbia in the SEC. Thank you so much and happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. Appreciate it, Doug.

Same your way. Thank you. Wasn't that a wow? Wasn't that amazing? I love the guy personally because he's not just a gentleman. And he's tough, hard nose, but he's fair. He's like basketball is this really interesting family that once you're in, in, you're kind of in, and you may have, you know, there's some coaches that have personal issues,

they're like, you know, but you're still in the family. There's coaches that can't coach offense, you're still in the family. There's coaches that can't coach defense, you're still in the family. We know who you are. And then there's guys that think like the Huggins kind of family. They're all kind of the same. They're tough, but the kind of rugged, bare hug sort of guys that you'd love to hang out with. Andy Kennedy's one of those.

And everybody calls them AK. Mike Boyton's kind of part of that family as well from his time with Brad Underwood, who of course was an assistant to both of them, and they're all in that Huggins family. Really, really good guys. And I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you know that that's a good basketball family list. We got to get Huggins on this, don't we? We absolutely do.

All right, I'm going to work on Bob Huggins. I need to get Jim Beheim. Hopefully now he's because he's recovering from the Rona. In the meantime, my thanks to Frank Martin for that, I was like, two and a half hours of talk over two different days. Make sure you download all our All Ball podcast. Subscribe, rate it. Listen to the Doug Gottlieb show, 3 to 60 Eastern,

12 to 3 Pacific, Spock Sports Radio, IHeartRadio app, where you can stream us anywhere you want. And I appreciate you listen. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is All Ball. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this valentines with 1-800 flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries,

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This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. On the Look Back at a podcast. For 1979, that was a big moment for me.

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Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Hewere.

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