The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - RIP Eddie Sutton; Jack McCallum on his 'Dream Team Tapes,' MJ's Isiah Snub Smoking Gun; 'Last Dance' Impressions

Episode Date: May 27, 2020

In this episode, Doug reflects on the passing of his former Oklahoma State Coach Eddie Sutton, and is joined by longtime sportswriter Jack McCallum to discuss his new Dream Team Tapes podcast, featuring exclusive interviews with members of the team he covered, and the smoking gun evidence on the tapes of Michael Jordan's snub of Isiah Thomas. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. In every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

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On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a hear, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

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Most of this pot is going to focus on Michael Jordan, the last dance, and the new Dream Team tapes. part of the Dream Team Tapes podcast, which is also available through your IHeart Radio app, which, by the way, you can download my radio show, listen to my radio show daily on the IHeart radio app. So most of this podcast can be dedicated to that. We're going to have a later podcast, hopefully there this week, on Eddie Sutton, playing for Eddie Sutton, coaching with Eddie Sutton, what he was like. He passed away at the age of 84 on Saturday night.

And look, full disclosure, you know, it was just I had gotten, I had been updated as to his health and that his health was failing going back about a week ago. And then he went, I think four or five days without eating before he ultimately passed. And what happens if you've ever had a loved one die in their, you know, 80s or 90s, whatever is just at some point your body just shuts down. and you know everybody in the room looks around and says this is terrible but like the body is saying it's time and that's really what happened with coach sutton you know it's just he was doing so well and then his his body just said that's enough and i would like to think and i do believe that getting into the hall of fame was what he was living for you know because when every time we'd go see him you know you'd get one of his family members would say like you know he's really kind of

struggling. And there were times in which he just, you talked to him and he didn't, you didn't want to go on. He didn't want to do the rehab. He didn't want to keep pushing. And, you know, like at some point, your wife died, his wife died seven years ago. Like, what am I living for? You know, I think he lived for the Hall of Fame. So I'm so happy that he got in. And now he'll get to enjoy the induction alongside his wife, Patsy. People ask all the time, why is it that you're so loyal to him? And I will tell you that I did not have the perfect experience playing for him. Like, I didn't achieve my own personal goals or my team's goals. I don't blame him for either, actually.

That's one of the things that he taught us, right, is that like, hey, end of the day, got to be accountable for yourself. And, you know, look, could I have had a better working relationship with him when I played for him? and I think had I had an open, like at 44 years old, I would have an open conversation about, hey, coach, just tell me the shots you want to take. I'll take those.

And I won't take in the others. And then you won't take me out if I miss the ones that you want me to take. Right. If we had a healthy back and forth like that, I never would have, I think I would have shot the ball much better. I would have played much better. And he wouldn't have had, he would have less to worry about. I'd have less to worry about it.

So, but I, but again, 20 years later, which that's what this is, 20 years later, I look back and I'm like, that was on me. I wasn't mature enough. I didn't have enough faith to myself to know what I could do, know what I was capable of, and either do it or tell coach, this is what I'm going to do and let's work together on it. And of the things that he taught us, being accountable for your own problems, for your own shortcomings is the only way to get better is to say it ain't about him. It ain't about him. It's about me. It starts with me. And that's kind of how I've lived my life. Like, that doesn't mean I've lived a mistake for your life.

I've done all kinds of stupid stuff and made all kinds of mistakes. And I do know when I've been done wrong or felt like I was misperceived, whatever, but I'm also willing to at least admit, admit that when I've done something wrong or done a bunch of things wrong. Or my level of blame that I should accept within something that has gone astray. Fair? Of the reasons that I really admired him as a coach and as a person was that he taught and lived and understood the idea of accountability. So accountability is obviously huge in terms of what made Eddie Sutton special. I also thought there was kind of relatability, right?

And he did find ways to relate to you, to know what was going on in your life. He felt like he was your dad. you know, they would do some kind of clever things. These things called Do Better Talks, you'd come in and you sit down in a chair in front of him and you have all the assistant coaches lined up and they would be researching your grades, your girls, your living situation, everything, and pick you apart.

Then he would kind of bring it all together and try and make you feel better about yourself after those guys completely demolished you and tore you down. So, look, he was fascinating the way in which he ran a program. but I guess, you know, if you say, well, you didn't get the person's success you want. Okay, maybe it was the person's success I want. Maybe it's the personal success I needed. He did allow us to be individuals.

Like, guys didn't have to wear the team shoe. You ever had a guy? We didn't have to wear suits and ties on the road. Like, we're a basketball team. You know how you're supposed to dress and how you're supposed to carry yourself. Like, act like you've kind of been there before. But look, as long as you play hard, I don't care. Just wear Nikes.

That was it. Wear Nikes. don't really care otherwise. You can talk to the manager and order you the shoes that you want. Fine. He did not sweat the petty stuff. So I liked that he didn't sweat the petty stuff. I liked that he was relatable.

I liked how the main emphasis of everything he did was about effort. You know, like when I coach kids now, we coached effort playing as hard as you can as long as you can. But I think more than anything, it was the type of guy that we had. Like all of our guys for the most part, like we got a couple of strays that we've kind of lost touch with. Most of our guys are really good guys. And I don't, I think I know that actually was part of their recruiting philosophy, right? Like you'd allow the players to pick if they didn't want to offer somebody to scholarship. Like, man, he just doesn't fit.

Sorry, coach. He just ain't our type of dude. Maybe some of it's that. Maybe it's their own intuition, knowing what fits in Stillwater and what does not. you know, maybe it's a question of who they could get. But I got to tell you, it's one of those, and there's a bunch of programs like this, I don't want to say Oklahoma State is, like when I hang around the Gonzaga guys, or I hang around the Butler guys, or I hang around the old Indiana guys, right,

hang around, you know, you go through the kind of laundry list of really good programs that you had thought you would like, you end up loving, like, man, those are the best dudes ever. And I think that's part of what he grew, what he fostered, the relationship. that he built. Our ability, you know, they would make things happen for us so that we could live together and off-campus apartments and hang out together. And, you know, we did some team bonding stuff that wasn't, we weren't doing ropes courses. We'd have to do five miles of five in the morning, but it worked.

I think I just loved the program. I loved his commitment to fundamentals. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise.

Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action. with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to SportsSlice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit.

suit of the thing. We get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve

Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me. Kier Gains is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at a podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. And, yes, I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys?

This is Clever Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to him and he goes, A, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue of 42.

Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Cliverts show on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. To how hard we play, the respect that he carried, the pride that he carried with himself?

I don't know. He was just, he was a, for an older guy, he was very cool and very relatable and very, very likable. And, uh, and crazy demanding. Maybe not crazy demanding. Just demanding. And then every once in a while, he would say, you did a hell of a job and you would feel so good about yourself because he was not a man of a thousand compliments. All right. We'll, we'll post another pod here and try and do something cool on the passing of Eddie Sut.

Let's get into the dream team stuff. Okay. So you've seen the last dance. We've had podcast on that. Since the last dance and has ended, people have come out and taken pot shots at it. One of the big storylines was Isaiah Thomas not being invited on to the Dream Team. Jack McCollum has the Dream Team tapes. He wrote the Dream Team book.

He knows about this team front, sideways and center. Let's welcome him, him. He's famous writer, Sports Illustrated, national bestsellers as well as he joins us in the All Ball Pot. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinwiddie host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council.

Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a story. book world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. If I could be you and you could be me for just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside. Each other's mind.

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Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. on Fox Sports Radio in the I Heart Radio app. Let's welcome him in. He has these tapes that everyone is talking about. There's a podcast coming out that has these tapes. He's Jack McCallum. A long time decorated sports author.

I mean, you go back to, he was a Sports Illustrated writer, New York Times bestseller. Of course, he covered the Dream Team in 92, and that's where the tapes emanate from. Jack, how are you? I'm doing okay. How are you? Not as good as you.

Everyone is talking about you, about this upcoming podcast, about these tapes. Talk to me about the tapes. This is just from covering the team, tapes that you had kept, with a special USA basketball tapes. Where are the tapes come from? Well, fortunately, even though I can't, you know, if you asked me for yesterday's shopping list, I can't find it. But when I did research the Dream Team book that came out in 2012, I had basically done the audio. the taping of all the guys pretty much 2009,

2010, 2011. I had a couple old tapes from 91-992, but they were even, you know, less audible, worthy condition. But these things were all good. I taped them on an old Radio Shack computer,

a Radio Shack tape recorder. And so when I put the book together, I used them, and then somebody was going to make a documentary about the Dream Team for various reasons that the whole other story. kind of fell apart, but then myself and Scott Waxman, who's headed Diversion Books and podcast, thought, hey, this would make a good podcast.

And the power of the podcast was not me, you know, reiterating the book or reading the book. The power of it, I hope, comes from the fact that I have these guys' voices. So there, ergo, the Dream Team tapes, and suddenly the one with Michael and Isaiah has you know, sort of caused, that's why you're talking to me, let's face it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a multitude of reasons. Okay, so the Michael and Isaiah tape, it was actually not Michael or Isaiah, though, saying that Jordan didn't want Isaiah, correct?

Oh, no, it's Michael. I went, you know, the story to this, Doug, it's kind of a long one. I mean, 91, 92, when the story first came out, when back in 91, someone told me not Michael, but one of the story angles was, would Michael play with Isaiah if Isaiah were selected? And, you know, I wrote back then that, you know, Michael said, no, I don't want to play what I say. And an unimpeachable source told me that.

And then I wrote it in the book. Michael's always danced around it for a variety of reasons we can talk about. I mean, he's kind of danced around it. He danced around it on the, on the last dance. tapes. But when I went to interview him for the book, I was trying to figure out, you know, you've done interviews, you've got to try to figure out how to get to the good stuff. When do I bring it up? Do I do it early? And Michael brought it up himself. And the way he brought it up was that John Stockton had gotten hurt during the Dream Team experience while they were qualifying

in Portland. There became a question of whether or not they were going to have to replace him. And Michael said I was afraid that get Isaiah to replace John. And then he told me, because in the beginning I had told Rod Thorne, that's who called Michael about it, that I didn't want to play if Isaiah was on the team. So Michael, you know, kind of brought it up himself. And it sort of startled me, but, you know, sometimes you get lucky. So there it is. Okay, but I thought to me the most, maybe not, most of the surprise,

The bombshell to me is that Chuck Daly also didn't want Isaiah. When Chuck Daly didn't want Isaiah, it was because it meant he wouldn't have Jordan, was because he didn't enjoy Isaiah's company? Like, why could that to me, I think everyone knew that Jordan on some level didn't want him, but the Chuck Daly element to it is maybe the more surprising one. Well, I totally agree with you, and that's what's been the most surprising to me about it. Would we be surprised if Jordan did want him? Wouldn't we be surprised?

You know, so I think the one misunderstanding that a lot of pro-Isaiah people have, and I understand, you know, Isaiah certainly had a case to be on the Dream Team, but it wasn't like the team was picked. And Jordan came along and go, oh, no, no, no, I'm not going. You know, the team wasn't picked. They had certain guys, Chuck Daly had certain guys he wanted. they began with Jordan. They went to Pippen because of his defense.

They went to Chris Mullen because of his shooting. They went to David Robinson because of his center athleticism. So there was this group of guys that everybody wanted, probably Charles Barkley, because of his, you know, he just was going to be unstoppable. Isaiah was not in that group of guys. So he never really had any traction. And part of the reason that Jordan has always been pissed off it's been brought up was, okay, yeah, I said I didn't want them, but nobody else.

Nobody else. Yeah, Maddie. I mean, Magic was his best friend, and they had a falling out when Magic had HIV, and he told people that, you know, Magic might be gay or whatever. I mean, I, that's the, the unreported stuff is like, okay, yeah, Jordan. And maybe this is where Jordan looks good. True, he did not accept responsibility for being, you know, the figurehead that said, I don't want Isaiah.

but he also, in doing that, didn't have to throw everybody on the bus by saying, hey, I'm not the only one, right? That to me is the take, but that's not the one. Because I don't know this. You weren't good. You know, they didn't poll everybody. But if you went to Pippin, who really didn't have much of a voice, but if you went to Charles Pippin, probably Byrd,

although Byrd manages to keep himself out of any kind of political. discussions. I don't know what Magic would have said, but it turns out in retrospect that magic was, you know, at this point, despite what he said publicly at the time, wasn't a falling out situation with Isaiah. Chuck Daly, whether or not he thought, I think it was probably 70 percent. Yeah, Michael doesn't want him. I'm not going to win this argument. And 30 percent was, I don't think he's the right exact guy anyway. And the other part of this is that every time we talk about, my God, Isaiah should be on the team. We're presumably saying John Stockton should not.

Because besides Christian Leitner, the one guy you would logically not have if you had Isaiah, it would be John Stockton. John Stockton was pretty good. No, he was the best point. At that point in 1991 and 92, he was the better player. He was the best point guard in the league. At that time, now to me you're hitting on the key point, which was, Bill Lambier said to me the smartest thing that anybody said, which was, if that team had been picked a year earlier, or two years earlier,

could they have kept Isaiah off the team. He's in the middle of winning two straight championships. He's a cagey veteran player. But things happen fast in sports. You know this. Things happen really, really quickly. And over those months, when they were, were picking the team, which was basically May, June, July, August of 91, the league had flipped.

It was Jordan's league. The Pistons suddenly were passe. I'm not saying it's completely fair. That's just the way it was. Jack Daly read the room. A bunch of people read the room, so it wasn't only Jordan. Jack McCallum joining us. The Dream Team tapes are set to come out in podcast form, care of all of us here at

I heart. What else, I mean, that's the smoking gun because of Jordan. What else are people going to most learn about the dream team because of the tapes of you have? Well, I thought the other interesting thing was kind of the subtle, I don't want to say, yeah, I'm going to say battle for leadership, the subtle sort of duel of leadership between Magic and Michael. I mean, there was sort of Magic at that time, you know, had already retired once because of HIV. He came back. We all know he was still a pretty good player, but not at the top of

the game. So he and Larry Bird were sort of the ceremonial picks, and should be there, by the way. I mean, the two best ceremonial picks in history. But Magic being, magic kind of, you know, I mean, he came into the league as a CEO

when he was 20. That's the way he looked at things. This is my team. These are my guys. This is how we're going to do it. I'll take care of this. Follow me. Jump on my back. And at that time, ceremonially, he was the best guy to do that. But the real leader of the team was Michael, was Jordan. And Chuck Daly very early, you know, had a conversation with Michael, Magic, and Larry, and Larry right away said, you know, I don't care. Let Magic do all the ceremonial stuff. And Michael said, look, let me step back a little bit,

let Magic and Larry do it, but I'm still kind of the guy, and there were several times, and a couple players spoke to it on the Dream Team tape, spoke to this sort of subtle little leadership battle between Michael and Magic, and it certainly was brought forth in this famous inter-squad scrimmage that they had in Bonacarlo

when Magic's team went against Michael's teeth. So I think that's a good subplot of the whole thing also. I also thought, and I have a good relationship with Charles Barkley, and I think they touched on it some. I felt like Jordan was trying, he tried to make a point, like Clyde was kind of there on vacation, and this is after losing in the finals to Michael. And I felt like you could tell me if I'm wrong, and you were there and you have the tapes. But it was relayed to me that Jordan wanted to, wanted to completely separate himself from anybody discussing Clyde, and he took it upon himself

to as often as possible humiliate Clyde in practice, whereas Clyde was just, hey man, see, off-season, we're going to win this thing by 40. Clyde was being Clyde. Is that accurate? Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games.

And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so rapidly. up in the chase, that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch.

Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person.

Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about. How healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here. unpack what went down and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black. black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people

in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, the Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee.

We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, A, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Brett. My mama want you to weigh better.

What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. That's pretty accurate. And what happened, there's a little side story to that also. You know, when they announced the team in the fall of September 91 or late August, I can't remember now, they only announced 10 guys and they were going to leave

two picks because they were still kind of fighting about how many college guys were going to be honest this thing started believe it or not with oh let's have eight pros and four college guys and then it started to become

oh wait a minute uh you know Patrick Ewing's not good enough to be on here so it quickly went to 10 to 2 and then they were sort of there and they decided well let's name the 10 guys and then we'll name two more right before the NBA playoffs. I thought it was a really stupid, you know, brainless idea.

And in May, they named Clyde, player number 11, and they named Latener, you know, player number 12, the one college kid. So then the finals come, and, you know, Michael just dusts Drexler in the finals, which were in Portland. So there was this lingering Jordan Drexler. duel. And I think Clyde really felt, you know, sort of, when I went to talk to him about the book, this is the other tape that had made a lot of controversy back then. Clyde begins on this thing about, I can't remember the question I asked him, but Clyde goes, wait a minute, do I think Jordan

was better than me? I was bigger, faster, stronger, all he could do better than me was shoot more. and I was like flabbergasted. I was like, you know, I know players have, and they should play with confidence and play with ego and believe you're the best player in the world. But I mean, at that point when I talked to them, 2010-11, I mean, would anybody in the world have had that take? You know, so there was always that little interplay between them and Jordan just kind of, just destroyed him at practice. And Clyde, the only thing I would say on the other side was that Clyde did have bad knees.

Clyde went back and actually got stoked. And every time at practice, we couldn't watch practice, by the way. I had to reconstruct this. Jordan really went at Drexler. And the other interesting thing was Charles and Carl Malone. Weight loss starts with the mind. And nobody knows this better than Martha Cameron, who lost 20 pounds on Noomwe. Yeah, I lost 20 pounds and kept it off.

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Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you.

Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. From what aspect? Them going on each other? Yeah. and they it was a little more

it was certainly friendlier I mean I know now that they're you know they have a lot of mutual respect and but there was an argument I mean I guess you would have agree with you could have an argument as to if we declare Barclay

a power forward you know by his size you know it could be a shooting guard but you know who's the better between them and believe it or not The best quote I ever got about that was from Drexler, who was, because I made the usual thing,

what if Charles had trained the way Carl had? I saw Carl Malone go like three and a half hour straight on a stairmaster. There was a puddle. I was waiting an interview one time. There was like a two-inch puddle of sweat underneath that guy. I never saw anything like it. Anyway, and Clyde said, you know, You can say that.

But if you, if Charles was exactly like Carl and trained the way he did and approached the game the way he did, then he wouldn't have been Charles. He wouldn't have had this aspect of creativity. He didn't use those words in this aspect of volatility. I thought that was a really interesting observation that every time you try to, you know, break something down into its most literal parts. Sure. A lot of times that's not what matters.

And when those two were together, you just looked at them and you went, well, Charles was better. I don't know why Charles was better. Just the same as Michael over quiet. Michael was better. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, really, really competitive dudes. Did they genuinely like each other as a team? They did.

The last interview I did in the book for various reasons. I don't know why I had so much trouble getting Larry Bird, but the book was almost finished. It was what they call galleys when they don't really want you make a lot of changes. So I ended up, I still hadn't gotten Larry, and I end up getting him by telling him I was going in for a cancer operation. And if I die on the table, my last thought's going to be that Bird didn't talk to me for this book. That happened to be true.

Yeah. All right, so I ended up talking to him. And Byrd was the only one that said to me, you know, if this thing went on another two weeks, we were beginning to unravel a little bit. That's not the word he used. But he began to hear little complaints. He began to hear little, oh, he played 10 minutes. And, you know, I only played this many minutes. and Bird was the only one

to say that to me and as I said he was the last interview the book was all but done but everybody else kind of I think it kind of speaks to the time

a little bit Doug speaks to the times I don't think these guys knew each other the way that you know Durant and LeBron and Dwayne Wade

and kind of this friendship of superstars exist now yeah you know it wasn't the same thing like David Roberts told me, I don't even know Carl

I hated Carl Malone. Sure. I didn't know Carl Malone. I didn't hang out with Carl Malone. All I knew him was a division rival.

Sure. And all these guys, everybody said, beside magic, I didn't know Larry Bird. I didn't know he had any kind of

sent to you. I didn't know I'd want to hang out with Larry Bird. So there was that element to the whole thing that really bound those guys together.

They enjoyed playing with each other. Everybody, people sacrifice. their game. There was no problem on the court. So beside that little thing, Bird said about it, which I found really interesting, they were all pretty much. This was kind of a kumbaya moment in all their careers. So they spoke pretty positively about it. Last thing, how did you think that Michael Jordan came off in the last dance? I just thought he came off impossibly Jordan-esque.

and with all that means, with all the positive and all the negative that implies, you know, Michael was, I mean, I dealt with him a lot, I dealt with him early Michael and later Michael. And one of the things that I've always thought was that magic, if you took Magic and Larry, magic came into the league and went out in basically the same way. Larry came into the league and went out in basically the same way.

I'm talking personality, the way they viewed the world, the way they treated people. Michael was completely different. I mean, Michael was a kid for 1984 to 1991. He was, I mean, I was lucky because he liked to get his, you know, mug on the cover of that side. But after 91, 92, and, you know, that first retirement and the gambling accusations and all that, he became a little bit of a different person, a little bit more of a hard-ass, a little more stubborn,

a little bit more by way or the highway. And so the Jordan that came across in the documentary was that Michael. And this is just personal. I can't, you know, I'm not his brother or his father or that close to him anymore. I wish I would have seen a little more of the early Michael, the kid, you know,

the playful kid who looked at this is a lot of fun and realize that through dint of, yes, talent and tenacity, that was part of it. But when he came along and the cultural moments that he had, that he can enjoy them a little more. And that's just a personal observation. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down,

give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsLice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

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growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but yeah, yeah, literally. But just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game.

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I'm going to have to comport his life any, you know, any different because of me. What did you think? I thought the same. I mean, you start to wonder if the world changed him or if he changed before the world. And I would say it's a little bit of both, right? As nature as a nurture, you know, you become this superstar. So you have to be a bit of a recluse. You become a recluse and you stop trusting people what their intentions are. You become close to security guards instead of and, you know, those are paid friends, you know, and, you know, it's a little like Kobe, right? Kobe's passed away. But a lot of our lens now of Kobe is a lot gentler, a lot nicer because he, you know, He was so classy and had really grown up and matured and became a businessman in his short time post career before he passed away. Whereas Kobe was, people didn't like Kobe when he was in. The guys didn't like Kobe when he was in league. And now he's like beloved. And it's interesting.

Like what snapshot of time do you see a guy in? When do you remember him last? And I don't know if, you know, this, this, this, this kind of dower sort of presence is how you would have looked at Jordan had you simply had tapes of the first run, first, you know, before he went to baseball, as you know, like he, like, really he's mad at baseball because he missed a, he's mad at Sports Illustrated because he missed a pitch by two feet and they put it on the cover, like, come on man, you never had a pretty, you never had a pretty, funny, it's interesting, I thought of that too. You mentioned Kobe, and part of the reason, they are, I don't know too similar more.

You were a basketball guy, you can evaluate this better than I can, but they were the same guy. Right. They were an assassin on the court. They were a scorer. That's it. they were, right? They were going to score the basketball. They are two of the most similar guys I've ever seen. They were looked at very similarly. I don't think Kobe early in his career,

I mean, later in his career, just like Michael probably wasn't as popular. What changed with Kobe as time went on? And part of the reason we mourned this horrible, horrible tragedy in which what, nine people were killed was that Kobe had softened and Kobe had become a father. And the one thing that I was screaming for more on that documentary was when Michael's sons came on, Marcus and Jeffrey Michael, they like brightened up the screen. Right? Do you remember that the last episode? Yes. They were, like they looked like they had been, you know, kept in a room and all of a sudden we're going to let them in and they're going to fill this room. And so that's what we didn't see from Michael. And that's okay if you're going to protect.

your family. But there were two times in the documentary, one with his own father, which he should have, absolutely, showed what an important father figure James was to him, what a tragedy that was. But then there was another part when we talked about the security guard being a second father to him. Well, if you're going to have father figures, I would have liked to have seen a little bit of Michael being a father. and that would have been very, very important to, you know, changing the image. But, hey, look, I'm not, you know, I'm not Michael's image maker. He is who he is, and to me, he came across as who he is on the documentary. The second part of Michael, what he was after he had become a little bit more of a hardened semi-reclus, we'll put it that way.

Awesome stuff. Jack, I really appreciate your time. I know you're super busy. We can't wait to hear these tapes on the podcast. Dreamtie tape. They are out now. It's the first save the name of the radio company. Well, you can get them anywhere you get on Iheart, right?

It's a combination with eye heart, is it not? There you go. We are eye heart, so you are allowed. We wouldn't have you on. I mean, we'd have you on anyway, but we're allowed to promote you. We're all kind of same dysfunctional family. Jack, it is an honor and a pleasure. I appreciate you joining us in the All Ball podcast.

Hey, thanks for having you, Doug. See you. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this

and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. And we're live here outside.

the Perez family home just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-arm kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed.

Diapers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now, the eldest daughter who looks to be about nine or ten has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed and they're off. Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car,

and there it goes! Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.gov slash the right seat.

Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. Be sure to catch you. the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. Well, that's obviously fascinating stuff. Thanks so much to Jack McCallum for joining us. You can download that podcast in the IHeart Radio app. You can also listen to my radio show, the Doug Gottlieb show daily, 3 to 6th Eastern, 12th, 3 Pacific on that same I heart radio app.

Look, my thoughts are, I've shared this with you before. This canonizing of Isaiah Thomas like he was done wrong. Like, I don't know. I thought Jordan said it best. winning has a price. And because of how Isaiah went about his winning, because of some of the things he said about other people, his price was he didn't get to be on the dream team. Pretty simple.

You know, would he trade in those two championship rings for a shot at the dream team? No. So, but winning for him had a price. That was the price. It wasn't, was it Jordan? Yes, it wasn't just Jordan. And when your own head coach allows that to happen, and Jack McCluskey was his GM, allowed that to happen, it tells you all that you need to know about how Isaiah Thomas was really, really viewed. You know, this is like when your boss comes to you and tells you that you're an essential worker.

And then all of a sudden they hand out the essential worker badges and you don't get one. You're like, hey, you set them as essential worker. Like, yeah, I don't know, we ran out of badges. No, you're just not really that essential. It sucks. It sucks for Isaiah to hear that. That now I did Jordan not like him, but magic. And, you know, Chuck Daly didn't want him on the team either.

Like, that stinks. But don't ask the question you don't want to hear the answer to. He got his answer. He got his answer. I still can't believe that Scotty Pippen doesn't like the depiction of him. Like, what don't you like? You're a sympathetic figure of a rags to riches story. They didn't talk about Madonna or any of the women.

Like, they didn't do any of that. it was about your contract. Then it was about the things that you did where you'd, you know, you wouldn't go back in the game and you'd say you do it all over again, you do the exact same thing. And then, you know,

you didn't get surgery until you're, until after the summer was over. And you told us the reason for that was you wanted to have a great summer. Like, the only damage done to Scotty Pippen was done by Scottie Pippin. It was done by Scottie Pippin.

Hope you enjoyed it. I thought Jack was great. Be listening for, that next podcast. We'll talk more about Eddie Sutton. Eighty-four years old, passed away Saturday night in Tulsa. Keep in mind he was never an assistant coach ever.

But maybe I'll just do all of his sayings for like 40 minutes next time and see how that goes over. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is All Ball. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this Valentine's with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets

to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more. surprise your Valentine with 1,800flowers.com. Right now, get the 18-stem enchanted rose medley for $3999, or upgrade to 24 red roses for $10 more. Go to 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting. cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves.

Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at a podcast.

From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay and I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host kids. games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

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