The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Scouting San Diego St., Utah St.; Wiseman Suspension; Lakers; Guest: Former Ole Miss HC Andy Kennedy

Episode Date: November 21, 2019

This week, Gottlieb gives his scouting reports on San Diego St.and Utah St.after seeing both live and talks with current SEC Network Analyst and former Ole Miss HC Andy Kennedy on transitioning from coaching to broadcasting, why he misses the sidelines, his memories of playing for Jim Valvano at N.C. State, coaching under Bob Huggins, his path from almost NBA player to head coach at Ole Miss, Marshall Henderson, what went wrong in Oxford, and his desire to return to coaching. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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all ball. All basketball, all the time. And it is an absolute pleasure, honor, for you to listen to my pod. We got a great special guest on this version of All Ball. His name is Andy Kennedy. He's the former head coach for a year, the Cincinnati Bearcats.

And a longtime head coach at Ole Miss. He's now a broadcaster for the SEC Network and a really, really good one. Plus, an amazing kind of life story, a life well-lived, you know, transfer, a guy who's played overseas a little bit, in the NBA, got a cup of coffee in the NBA, and of course, it's been a long-time assistant, part of that Bob Huggins family and a long-time head coach in his own right.

So we'll tackle a myriad of topics with the one and only Andy Kennedy in mere moments. Let me first promote my radio show, 12 to 3 Pacific Coast time, 3 to 6 Eastern Time, 3 to 6 Eastern Time. The Doug Gottlieb shows on Fox Sports Radio, the IHeart Radio app, Sirius XM217 and 203, where you can hear all of my opinions on a variety of topics, not just on the NBA or college basketball. I want to give you a couple of, I guess, quick little thoughts on a couple of teams that I've seen. Now, I saw San Diego State play in person, and the Aztecs, I don't know if they've been down,

but look, they've been a dominant team, absolute dominant team in the Mountain Way. conference until recently. Here's San Diego State and Brian Dutchers entering his third year as head coach. And they kind of gotten a little stale to be totally candid with you. Think about what San Diego State has been able to accomplish under Steve Fisher. And look, if you know anything about Dutch, Dutch is a huge part of it. But they went through a run there where they won 26, 25, 34, 26, 23, 31, 21, 20. 27, 28.

And then in Coach Fishes last year, only 19. They made the tournament in Brian Dutcher's first year. They won 22, but I think they won the Mountain West Conference tournament. Then 21 and 13 last year, but kind of disappointing. You know, the Malik Pope thing never kind of worked out. This year, they're 3 and O. This year, they're nationally ranked. And I think this is a really good team.

You know, they're averaging about 80 a game. They're back to not just having transfers, quality transfers, kids that can get buckets, but guys that are kind of okay, Gs, you know, our kind of guys. Malachi Flynn is a big time score. He's averaging over six assists the game. I don't think he's a great passer, but he is willing to pass off penetration, share the basketball. Jordan Shackle, Shackle, excuse me, Bisham Montgomery kid, can really shoot. They're using some at the four.

KJF. Egan is a transfer. He's originally from Long Beach, transferred from Santa Clara. And he's just kind of a do-everything, do-everything guard, right? He's not a point. He's not a two. He's not a great shooter, but he's just a, and he's a good on-ball defender. And then they have Matt Mitchell, who's lost 20 pounds. You know, he's listed 6-6-2-40.

He was 267 last year. Nathan Mensis, they're starting big. They bring Arop in, who gives them great energy and athleticism, like a 65-66-4-5. Yanni Wetzel starts for them. He's a New Zealand kid from Vanderbilt. huge body. They have those big bodies that they've always had,

but now you have Flynn, Shackle, Fagan, and occasionally Mitchell, who could make shots. They just didn't have enough shot makers in years past. And really, their defense wasn't as tough

as it had been. I'll tell you about Utah State in a second, but I think that the Mountain West has two top 25 teams, two teams that can win the league and two teams that can win a couple games in the NCAA tournament. San Diego State's one of them.

All right, now let me get to another team that I've seen that I really, really like in the Mountain West. It's Utah State. Okay, so Utah State's coached by Craig Smith. We're going to have him on the pod. He's hilarious. I mean, truly an enjoyable dude to have around, to hang around, and to listen to talk.

We had Tim Miles on. He's a former Tim Miles assistant. I like this team a great deal. Now, I liked them last year when other people did not or other people were kind of slow to come around to them because they were so good defensively. You know, offensively they share the basketball. They play good hoop. You know, all that stuff kind of works. defensively, they're kind of nasty and nasty in a very, very good way.

I mean, look at the, look at the advanced stats on Utah State. And for example, I mean, I love doing kind of raw data, not always, you know, kind of advanced analytics, you know, what somebody, Utah State is, I think they're 12th in the country as at the time of this recording in field goal percentage defense. And remember, we did discuss San Diego State. San Diego State, known for their defense, is at 14. And Utah State's played, both have played an okay schedule, nothing spectacular. Sacramento State, by the way, right now the best.

But who is Sacramento State? Virginia, obviously, Georgia Tech, Ohio State. So, but the impressive part about Utah State is that they're doing all this without Neme Keda, who's their best defensive player. He's a sophomore from Portugal, just a tremendous, shot blocker and has really good feel around the basket defensively. So whatever their defensive numbers are, good, but they're going to get better. Then he added Sam Meryl, who's shooting 54% from three, preseason player of the year.

Brock Miller hasn't been shooting it all that well, but he's a total sniper. They got Alfonso Anderson, who's a junior college. He's just an undersized four. It gets to the free throw line a ton. Comes off the bench. Diogo burrito is back. Abel Porter's back. So Abel Porter and Justin Bean, Justin means their second-lein score.

those guys are former walk-ons, but they're older, they've been on their mission. Like, it's just a good, and now they have another big kid, Kuba Kourowski, who's starting because Nima Kada's out, 7.2, block shots. Only, you know, just finishes around the rim, gets like two offensive rebounds a game. He's already got 11 block shots. He's averaging over two block shots a game. Like, this is a nice, deep team that's old and experienced. So I look at San Diego State, I look at Utah State, and with so many of the other,

high majors having younger players, wouldn't stun me if these are two teams late in the year that not only have won 28, 30 games, also are going to win a couple games in the tournament. And especially a team, you know, like a Utah State who, you know, Utah State has played in the NCAA tournament. They've won the Mountain West Conference tournament. Like, they've won big games before, so nothing really should surprise them or nothing should, you know, throw them off their rocker. And I think playing without Nima Kada so far this year is like a really good thing for their future. Because, you know, like, look, you get in the NCAA tournament and Kada gets into foul trouble. Now, Karowski is going to have to come in.

And they also, by the way, have Sean Berstow. That's, do you remember his brother played at New Mexico? Cameron Berstow? Now, they look, Sean Berstow looks like the before, whereas Cam Berstow, who is a mountain of a man who played a little bit in the NBA, is the after picture. but still having a bear's... Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist,

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Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you give you. It's your podcast. So in the Mountain West is kind of clever. So I think San Diego State and Utah State, legit San Diego State, probably a top 20, 25-ish team. Utah State probably, I think I put them on my Fox Sports top 10. Are they really a top 10? Right now they probably would be because they're ahead of everybody else. They have some athletic limitations.

I don't think anybody would argue with that. But they can shoot it. They can pass it. And they really defend. And they don't turn it over a ton. So we'll see as they step up in weight class. They're going to play against, I think they have LSU coming up. So there's going to be some tougher games on the horizon.

And they've only played Montana State, Weaver State, Denver, and North Carolina, AT and Texas, San Antonio. They haven't played anybody good. And they've mopped the court with all of them. Like Weaver State, I think they beat 80 to 37. Like, that was the actual score. But I like both these teams. I really do.

I think they're going, they're teams that you will see second weekend in March. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this valentines with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more. Surprise your valentine with 1-800flowers.com. Right now, get the 18-stem enchanted rose medley for $39.99 or upgrade to 24 red roses for $10 more. Go to 1-800flowers.com slash tune-in. That's 1800flowers.com slash tune in.

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Just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed.

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Learn more at nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.gov Slash the right seat. Brought to you by Nidza and the Ad Council. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show Weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio and the IHeart Radio app. Let's welcome in the longtime head coach of Ole Miss.

Of course, was head coach for a year at Natty. He played at NC State and at Alabama and Birmingham at UAB and now you see him on the SEC network and working for the folks at the SPN. He's a.k. Andy Kennedy. How are you? What's up, Doug? What is it like to be a guy who has been in locker rooms as a player and a coach for your entire professional life?

Now you've been through a season, at least, of being an analyst kind of commentator. What's that like for you? Obviously, less pressure, but honestly, less reward. I enjoy it. It's been great for me. The year away last year, I was a coach for 23 years, Doug. So to step out of that lifestyle, which, as you know, is all-consuming, and to look at it from a different perspective was very, very helpful for me on a professional as well as a personal basis. Now, going into year, too, I have a much better understanding of what happens on this side of the camera, i.e. television.

I'm still, you know, watching and learning and growing and seeing a lot of different things that I'm exposed to from the TV aspect. And again, it's been good for my growth on a number of fronts. All right. Let's go back. I remember reading the book about NC State and reading about you. What was it like to, what are your memories of playing for Jimmy V? Well, I remember that book. Like, I guess a lot of books.

fact 99% fiction but I remember this guy more than anything else Doug he was so far ahead of his time meaning he was one of the first coaches that actually took being a basketball coach

and turned it into an enterprise he was if you remember in the time that I was there which was 86 87 he was not only the head basketball coach but he was the athletic director he had his own company. He was one of the first that really started commercializing the whole business of coaching.

So all of the coaches out there today were making a lot of money thing called coaching. A lot of respect goes back to Jimmy V because he was one of the pioneers in making that happen. What was he like to play for, though? What was he like as a coach? He was very emotional, very intense, not overly detailed, is it related to X's and knows was really more in finding the right buttons to push emotionally to get his guys to play. I was a part, you know, he won the championship in 83. I got there in 86, 87, and we won the ACC tournament that year.

I was on the team with Vinny Del Negrow, who you know well. Charles Shackerel, it was kind of a notorious guy who ended up playing a number of years. In the NBA, Chuckie Brown was a good friend. So we had a really good team, and he was a guy again that my first year going into big-time basketball on the collegiate level. All right, give me your best Shackleford story. You know, what, there's a number of them. I think the one that stood out.

I remember, I think it was after I was gone because there was some, you know, some scandal followed. I was maybe 60 minutes or somebody. Big time was doing a interview Shack, and, you know, he had the ability to score over both shoulders right and left, and he had a really good one time, yeah, and I can go left or right. I'm amphibious.

Yeah. Do you remember that? Yeah, of course. Of course. And then, you know, he ended up playing a number of years in the NBA. Okay, so then you leave, you go to UAB, and you play for... For Gene Barton. Gene Bartow.

What was he like? You're talking about polar opposites. You know, Doug, I've been really fortunate from Jim Bovano to Gene Bartow to Bob Huggins. All three Hall of Famers, and all three are polar opposites and their approach in the way in which they conduct business, but all three have been very, very successful. It just shows you there's a lot of different ways to do it. So I live Jimmy V. I go and play for Coach Bartow, who is a Hall of Famer, did an incredible job.

And every, really, every place he went, you know, people forget he was the guy that came after Wooden at UCLA, which was a thankless task, took Memphis to the final four, and then he came and built a UAB program from scratch and had unprecedented success early on in the building of a program. Coach Bartow was different. You know, he was equally as intense, but he just went about it in a different way. He could see the game as good as any coach I've ever been around. You know, back in those days, because you just didn't have as much access to information,

quoted with a lot of tape and a lot of – I mean, you played for Eddie Sutton. You probably – it was probably very similar. But those guys, man, they could really see the game. He would sit there throughout the course of a game. It could make adjustments as good as anybody I've ever been around. So you get done, and then you went and played overseas. You played what in Greece? I know.

Yeah, I was with Charlotte Hornets briefly. Then I bounced around abroad. I played in. Hold on the Hornets when you're there. They have Chupac. They have Kelly Chupacin, Chupac and some of those dudes? He was gone. Mugsy Boggs, a grandma, Alonzo Morning Run.

Gene Littles was the coach. I'm there through preseason. They'd signed the guy, or they picked the guy. you'll remember this guy because you're basketball. Jones. Kevin Lynch, remember him? Sure. A white guy from Minnesota. First pick of the second round, and he did not show up for camp,

was, you know, holding out, whatever, trying to get a guaranteed contract back in those days. Second round guys didn't get guaranteed contracts. So I went through some preseason stuff, and they ended up signing him. I get released and went immediately to Greece. How funny is this? You know, now you'd pay thousands of dollars to go to Greece

and the tour of the Parthenon. walk around downtown Athens. Well, that was my first job abroad. That was my reality. I would go by the Parthenon every day on my way to practice and didn't appreciate it one bit. Went from there, bounced around Holland, played in Spain. Rico, when I told my right ACL, which at the time was my fifth,

I now had six. But at the time, it was my fifth knee surgery, and it caused me to lose a step. I couldn't afford a different vocation. All right. So you decided to go into coaching. What was that like to, like, everybody dreams of playing, You're so close to making the NBA.

And, you know, when you're playing in Greece and in Spain, you're still kind of a phone call away. How did you go through the process of getting into coaching? Well, you know, I just reached out to a lot of people that I'd known along the way. You know, back to Coach Bartow, God rest his soul, he was not very, he was very dissuasive. He did not want me to get into coach. He just thought it was a hard way to make a living.

He wasn't very helpful initially. And then when my stubbornness prevailed, he finally, He had a great line. He said, you know, when he knew that I was going to get into coaching, and he made a couple calls for me to help me. My first job was at South Alabama for Ronnie Arrow. That was the first job that I had. And, you know, that was when UAB and South Alabama were in the same league.

Back in the old days, the old Sunbelt, with Old Dominion and B.C.U. In South Florida, Western Kentucky, it was the original Sunbelt. Well, Coach Bartow once told me, he said, you know, this coaching business is a hell of a way to make. a living if it won for those games. And he's never, and he's never, and he's never been truer. I embarked into coaching 23 years, and he was right. It's a great business if it won for those games.

Those games seem to amplify those. They do, but that's the fun part, right? That's the part that you're missing. I agree. I agree. Right? No, I mean, that's what I'm... The thrill and the agony of defeat.

No, I mean, and I'm sure you've experienced it's like, look, I've never coached in college. I've coached other games, but... every year I sit down courtside and you miss being in the losing locker room as much as the winning locker room, right? Like even the, even the man, that's got to suck that plane ride home. But the idea of a coaching staff trying to figure out the solution to these problems, right? And even, you know, the things they say about their, I hate that guy. I don't like that kid.

You know, the guys that turn them off, turn them on or whatever, like those parts, as well as the winning. The winning is so exhilarating. I believe that any coach like yourself that thinks, do I want to do this long term, if they sit courtside, if you're in a studio, it's kind of stale, you know, it's like watching from a blimp, it's not the same thing. But if you sit court side, there's no way, no way you don't want back in. All right, let's go to, okay, you're at South Alabama, fresh out of playing, right? It's in Mobile, Alabama.

You're coaching under Ronnieero. What do you remember about it? Really a strange odyssey. How about this? So this was back in the days when South Alabama, when you remember schools used to be on the quarter system, meaning they started really late. So I get hurt in the summer in the old Superior League in Puerto Rico,

which was an experience in and of itself. But I come back, excuse me, I come back, and I delve into coaching. I'd walked into a situation where Coach Arrow was a bit on the hot seat. I didn't know it was scalding. We start off one in three, and he got fired. So I'm four games into my initial voice, the coaching. Another guy who was new on the staff named J.T. Prada, who had been under Paul

Westhead at Loyola-Marrymount, and we were trying to implement this Loyola-Marrymount face of play, which sounds great if you've got Bo Kimball and Hank Gathers, but it didn't work so good in Mobile. We were scoring a bunch of points, giving up more, throwing a ball all over the gym. So J.T. became the interim head coach. I stayed there throughout the course of the season. They ended up hiring the late great Bill Musselman, and I worked for Coach Muscle, but for a few weeks prior to having the opportunity to come back to my alma mater. Coach Bartow had retired as the head coach.

Murray Bartow, his son was given the job. Coach was, Gene was still the athletic director, and I came back and worked for Murray. Wow, that's, that's crazy. I didn't remember that, yeah, I didn't remember that Ronnie Arrow got fired, and then, you know, because he's back there, right? Now he's back at South Alabama? Well, he went back. No, not.

Well, he's gone again, but he was the only guy, and it was the same AD. It was Joe Godfrey, Mark Godfrey's father. Yeah, yeah. Coach Godfrey was the athletic director who dismissed him, and then he brought him back some years later. So I don't know if that's ever happened before. Ronnie had great success at South Alabama. Well, we started off one in three.

I'll never forget and get whacked. J.T. coaches the rest of the year. we were very average at best and soon to come back to Birmingham and coach for a murder at Malamata. That is kind of amazing. With Hello Fresh America's number one meal kit, get easy, seasonal recipes,

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hellofresh.com slash all ball nine. Use the code all ball nine. That's hellofresh.com slash all ball nine. Nine free meals. So use that code all ball nine. You mentioned Puerto Rico is an experience. All right, give me an experience. Give me your best Puerto Rico story. Well, our team was the head of the CIA in Puerto Rico, a guy named Juan Almada, and he was quite a character. But, you know, I went over expecting, you know,

it would be me in non-Portaricans, but it was, it wasn't. You know how it is over there. Anybody with any Puerto Rican ancestry is considered Puerto Rican in this league. So it was just like America. You know, it was me at nine dudes. So it was just like, you know, high-level college basketball. ball in these little cracker box gyms throughout the country of Puerto Rico where they're smoking. You can barely, you know, you could barely see the other end of the court for all the smoke

in the gym and everybody's drinking and shooting fireworks. It was quite a, it was quite an adventure. Yeah, it's interesting, and I'm sure you've experienced this, you know, where you're, you're recruiting a kid and they all say they love it. And you're like, really, you love it? Okay, go playing Greece in a smoke-filled gym where you don't know if you're going to get paid, right? and you hang your stuff on a little hook in the locker room

and dudes are smoking after the games. Take your own ankle. Yeah, take your own ankle, find your own eyes. I remember my, I was, so I finished up and I was supposed to play with a team in Italy with an Israeli passport. I go to Israel. They won't give me a passport unless I live in the country. So I go back and I essentially get cut and then I'm in the CBA.

And I thought I made the Idaho stampede. I'm competing for a, starting spot with my man Darren McClinton. And then all of a sudden, Randy Livingston gets cut from the Bulls, like the day before the season. And we play an exhibition game. And I don't play a minute. I realize that it's because they're bringing Randy Livingston in. They release me.

Then I'm in the, I call two games on ESPN Plus, and then I play in the IBA. I fly to Russia. I practice for a week. I play in Russia. I never forget this. Like, we get done playing in St. Petersburg in the middle of winter. and I was like, hey, can I get some ice? Right?

Like, you know, you want to always ice up after a game. And they're like, LUT. I was like, no, no, ice. Can I get ice? Lut, Lut. And I was like, all right, whatever, loot. So they go outside and they scoop up Lutus is snow. No.

And so they just go outside, scoop up snow, put it in a plastic bag and handy. Like, Lut, like, good enough. There we go. Right, I just, I read enough. It's cold. It works. Yeah, it does. It does.

All right. So how did you go from UAB to, working for Huggins at Cincinnati. Before we get to that, you remind me of a great story. People don't have any idea. They think there's this pot of gold overseas, and everybody's going to cater to their every day. They really have no idea.

I remember getting the phone call. I get released by Charlotte on like a Tuesday. And on Thursday, I get a call, and that was back, you know, before the whole e-ticket deal. So you'd go to the counter at the airport and get your boarding pass. So you show up and I get on a plane and fly planes, trains, and automobiles to get to Athens, Greece, and land, and literally have no idea where I'm going who's there to get me. I mean, it's just blind faith that somebody scoops you up because you've got a one-way ticket. I mean, I can't even get home.

Like, if I'm sitting in the airport and nobody shows up, I don't even know how to get home. And that's what you did, just like you said prior to, you know, understanding whether or not you're going to get paid, where you're going to live, what's going on. You just kind of show up and hope it works out. I've done that many times. That actually is my Russian story. I don't remember if I've told it on this pod. But so I was, so I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I played, I, I called two games.

Speaking of UAB, Pete Durses, who's, I believe he's a UAB, right? He was at that time. He was, he worked at UAB. That's right. Okay. He's got a great affinity for UAB. So he calls, and I'm, I'm working out and doing stuff in Oklahoma City. He's like, hey, you want to call some games.

we want to take a listen to you. So I did Texas, I was, oh, TCU at Butler, and Thad was the coach at Butler on like a Saturday. Greedy Daniels was the point guard at TCU. Then I do TCU,

Texas Tech. I'm literally having drinks with Pete after the game, and I get a call for my basketball agent, like, hey, we got some interest from a couple of foreign teams, but you haven't played. Like,

you want to go play in the IBA? I was like, what in the hell is the IBA? I go playing Slop. Carolina, Kansas, but to play in Salina, Kansas, they were playing in Des Moines, Iowa. So I call a game in Fort Worth, fly the next day to Des Moines, play the next two nights in Des Moines, then we bus overnight. I've never been on a sleeper bus.

It was like something out of the movie Major League. We're on a sleeper bus. We go back to Salina, Kansas, play four games in like five nights in Salina, Kansas. And right before the last game, I get the call from my agent, like, hey, this Russian team wants you in. Perm Russia. I'm like, all right. So I play a game in Salina. I pack up my stuff. We drive my wife back to our apartment in Oklahoma City and or maybe to her parents' house, whatever. I fly from Oklahoma City to New York. I have to go to the consulate to get a visa. So like you land in the morning. I took my first, you land like at 11 o'clock, I go directly to the consulate, fill out some papers,

then I got to come back at like two something. Then I fly overnight to Russia to Moscow. and when I landed in Moscow, like you're groggy, you don't know a day or night. No, no, because I had to catch another flight, so because it's in a different city. So we land in Moscow, and I come out and get my bag, and it's the same thing. Like, I got a one-way ticket.

I have no cell phone that works. This is in 2001 in January. And I'm looking around, looking around, and all I see is a bunch of Russia writing and a basketball. And I'm like, that must be my guy. It's got to be me. So I was like, me. He's like, he takes my bag and he's like smoking and he puts me in the car and he points

to the back of the seat. So I'm like, and here's what, here's my memory, because he did stop and we got something to eat and he ordered food and we drank hot tea and ate something that was terrible. But I remember like coming in and out of consciousness and seeing red square. It's kind of what you're saying about the Parthenon. And it reminded me as somebody in like a spy movie who was drugged who like you're like in and out of consciousness and you're seeing different parts of Russia. And all of a sudden, next thing I know, I'm at another house or something.

Yes, yes. But they're taking me to another airport because the way it works in Moscow was you flew into one airport and then they take you to another and that other one spits you out to the other cities in Russia. Anyway, then he drops me off at another airport and he hands me a plane ticket and then just like, all right, go ahead, dude. Fend for yourself. That's it.

And then I flew to another airport and, you know, we land and it's ice and snow. and there's another lady with a basketball symbol that doesn't speak English. You're like, all right. And then I end up, I end up an apartment that used to be occupied by Roy Marble, which is unbelievable. Or not, not Roy Marble,

Roy Tarpley, who had the drinking drug problems. Wow, wow. No, people have no idea. I've got, I played in about five different countries, and I can tell you just incredible stories about each. I did the same thing.

I landed one time after about a 17-hour flight landed. They picked me up. We have pleasantries. Hey, how are you doing? That's all they could say. And they took me right to the gym, and I played a game like literally five minutes after landing. I was with you. I was with, I've also played on teams where the coach didn't speak English,

so that the other American has to tell you what the coach is saying. And then you start scoring more points in him, and he starts becoming quiet. So he freezes you out. So he wouldn't get me to play. So they ended up to let me go. That happened to me in Israel. In Israel, everybody speaks English. I played for a guy named Sharon Droker.

And there was another point guard. The only other, the only Israeli, true Israelis, like you're saying about Puerto Rico. Like everybody, we had a bunch of Americans that, you know, you marry an Israeli chick or you're Jewish like me. You can get Israeli citizenship. So we had Corey Carr. We had a guy, Jesse Salters, who played at South Florida.

And Matte Malicia, who played at Long Beach State. Anyway, the only Israeli that could really play was this guy, Guy Contor. And, you know, they would coach in English. and then all of a sudden, like, I would play well in the first half and play more minutes than Guy. And I come in the locker room and they're arguing in Hebrew. And I was like, what are they? What is it? And then we go out and all of a sudden, like, I'm coming off the bench again.

Like, oh, okay. That's what we had. That's what that's what's going on here. All right. So you're at UAB. How'd you get to Huggins? Now listen to this. I've known Bob Huggins like a lot of people would know Bob Huggins.

You know, Grudy because Huggs was recruiting, you know, Jukes, a lot of, lot in those in that time. And at UAB, we were a lot of jukes, so we were cross paths on different guys throughout the country. But long story short, back in July, you know, the July period has changed so much over time. I remember when I was first starting coaching, July was basically an open period, and you'd be gone for 23 days. You'd be gone 23 straight days.

There were no off. I mean, it was 23. You could go to high school. You could go there. Not nearly as regulatory. it is today. Then they went to a period where it was, I believe, seven days on, seven days off, seven days on, seven, off, ten on a period. I'm at UAB, and I went out as a UAB representative. I'm recruiting for UAB. Mick Cronin left Cincinnati to go join Petino at Louisville,

so there was a spot. I had to throw my hat in the rain. Some people had reached out. We had some mutual friends, yada, yada, yada. Next thing I know, the night before the second period that started to end it. I get a call from hugs and do the job. I accept the job. He tells me I'm going to be in Las Vegas. And at the time, I'd never been in Las Vegas in my life. He said, hey, you're going to fly to Las Vegas. I'll be there in a couple days. Boom, boom, boom. We'll FedEx your cell phone and some gear. Here's the hotel. Go. And that's what happened. So I flew out and I was with him for four years, learned an incredible amount of basketball. You're talking about a basketball, Sabon. Bob Huggin sees the game at different.

In my opinion, should be a first ballot hall of famer for everything that he's accomplished. I agree with you and echo that. I got to tell you my hugging story, okay? So I'm at Notre Dame, and I've obviously got in trouble. I had to leave. And so my idea, my father is like, hey, man, we should go to junior college. One of my high school coaches, my first high school coach was a coach at Golden West. Practice with the team.

I actually help him coach, do all this different stuff, and not play, not lose your year. So in the meantime, that first summer before I'd even ever played in junior college, or gone to junior college, excuse me, I played in a junior college event in Vegas. So this is, you might have been at it. It was in the summer of 1996.

So 96. Like that, I might have been. Yeah, we're in Vegas. And it's me and a cat, Clay McKnight, who actually did the same thing. He transferred from UCI to Pacific. he also sat out for a year. But that was my intent.

So I go and I'm in, I played a year of college basketball. You know, I'd started at Notre Dame. So, like, I'm playing against these Juko dudes. And it is, I made it, you know, even though they're high level athletes, they had, like, you know, when you played college basketball. No, I had no idea. I had no idea. Right. So I'm, I'm playing, I play.

Right. And I actually had a, I actually had a nasty dunk. Like, I'm in just in the greatest shape of my life. So I get home and I get a call. My mom's like, Bob Huggins from Cincinnati's in the phone. I was like, oh, okay. So I was like, hello, and he says, hey, you want to come?

And I was like, excuse me? I tell you. That was the opening line. Yeah, he said, listen, saw you play in Vegas. Thought you did great. I need a point guard. You want to come or don't you want to come?

Because we got a hell of a team. We got a lot of athletes. We'd love to have you. Just let me know, do you want to come or not? I just, I don't need the bullshit. You know, I don't know. I need to fucking run around. Just let me know if you want to come.

You know, think about it. I can send you some stuff. You can check out of our roster. You want to come out here. You can come out here. I don't really care. Just let me know if you want to come. Right.

I was like, okay. And that was like, okay. And what's interesting was I didn't and I should have. Like in terms of the roster. Yeah, you would have done well for him. You could have done good. And I, you know, it wouldn't have been easy some days, but you're tough. If you could have handled it.

No question. So I'll dial you back through what you, that was the year when you didn't have 96, 96, because I had played with, who would I play with that? That was, you had, a Damon Flint had played with our AAU team, right? Yep. Yeah. Was that David, was that Danny Fordson? Was that that crew?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you ended up, and Bobby Brandon as well. Yeah, Ryan Fletcher, maybe. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth,

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you didn't have, there wasn't a point guard on that team for like, for like two years. You still end up, got to winning the league until, who is the little point guard? Steve, you got Steve Logan, like the year would have been, I would have been my, I would have been my junior year. But it was like, that was a team that you had. Yeah.

Yeah, Logan and Satterfield was a back court. I didn't get there to 0-1. I got there, Logan, senior year. It was the first year, maybe in like 20-some-odd years that Cincinnati was not preseason ranked coming into the college basketball season. So everybody thought

we would be down again. It's my first year there. And we lost to Oklahoma State, ironically enough, in the opener. I don't know if it was a preseason NIT. I can't remember, but we go to Oklahoma State and lose a close game. About 20 in a row, we end up going 31 and 4 and getting

beaten the second round in the 8-1 game because UCLA, who was the pre-season, the number one team in the country had not performed to that level. So they were in the 8-9 game. They win and they beat us in double overtime in Pittsburgh, 119, 115, some crazy number for a Bob Huggins' defense. I mean, but UCLA at the time, I think they had like seven or eight pros on that team. 105, 101, and double overtime.

That's it. You're pretty close. Yeah. And you did lose Oklahoma State. That was the year after we had all left. We had a bunch. No, it was two years after we had left, right? that was, yeah, so, um, yeah.

How do, how does Huggins, the, the, the funniest thing about the story about beginning the Cincinnati job, though I don't want to leave this out. So I was not the first choice. Huggs had offered the job to a couple people, one of which was the guy that signed me at North Carolina State, Tom, a better Marco. The alphabet man. Yeah. In the 80, the alphabet man, in the 80s, early 90s, he was the best there was.

He was signing the best players in the country. Tom Abedomarco signed me at NC State, and then he left to become a head coach. He never coached me at NC State. I don't remember which was first. It was either Drake or Lamar. He either got Drake, and then took Lamar or was Lamar to Drake. I can't remember. But he became a head coach who was never around when I was there.

But I've known him, you know, we still talk, you know, periodically until today. And so hugs had offered Abedamako the job. I think Coach of Better Marco had accepted the job and was going to a personal situation on the West Coast, and I don't think he could leave, and so it ended up opening, and I get it. The reason I know it was serious is because in my office, for it, and to be for me, on my phone, it would say phone call for Tom a Better Marco. That's how far along it was. I mean, he was in the system, and I've never got it changed because I wanted it to be a reminder of... If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you

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Our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. That's amazing. All right, so he was in California coaching at SAC State. My brother was his assistant. So, I mean, I mean, you were.

want to talk about a guy who has been everywhere and I got to get him on the spot and tell some stories. I mean, he's, and you know what? He has an amazing eye for talent too. It's not just that he's a great recruiter. Like, he can go into a gym and find, go into an auxiliary gym, like, hey, this kid can play. Like, damn,

Ben-Marco, you're right. Alphabet man. And he, I mean, he worked under Jimmy V, lefty, Lou Carnaceca. I mean, you name it. He's the Forrest Gump of college basketball. That's really what he is. Before he's coming college basketball.

That's a great call. You should get him on the pie because he would have, I mean, this guy's been doing this in the trenches for four. So how did you get the, how did the old miss job? Well, okay, well, first you got the Cincinnati job when, when Huggins got suspended. What was, what was that like? Because at the time, and this is, I'll give you kind of my timeline of, because your story is more important in mine, but it's interesting. I always have, like I revere Bob Huggins.

I think he's great. and I think I just I love the way he gives it to his players and he actually takes it back from some of them right like some of those guys yeah well he wants you to challenge him back it's interesting because in a different way coach satin had the same sort of thing going a lot of these coaches had this thing going where they would they'd almost turn the players against the coaches in order to get them to play it at this kind of emotionally peak level right where you like and to get them to unify and to get them to unify and to get them to unify I was almost like an us versus them. Yeah. Let's all stick together and, you know, because this coach is crazy.

That was kind of the method of the madness. Yeah. Now, did he discuss that with you? Because, like, I don't know if Coach Sutton discussed it with his guys or just because we, you know, you get to Christmas break. You like, we fucking hate them and they hate us. Like, was it, was it a plan to discuss it or you guys just kind of went along on the staff? No, you, there was never discussion.

You just started figuring out, oh, this is how it works here. You know, we're going to, we've won 20 in a row. We're the fourth in the country. Life is good. Well, all of a sudden, let's pick a fight in the locker room. And so now let's curate some chaos because that's where we're better. It's where we're more comfortable. And so it's also the type of guys that he likes to recruit too.

Like he doesn't recruit complacent dudes. Like you can't play for him. Like a three-car garage kid would really, really struggle there. You know, whereas he recruits tough dudes that are better in adversity than they are in complacency. Fair? And you're completely fair, and the U and I is different in chaos. So that was normal to them. So if you put them into a, quote, unquote, normal situation, they would be uncomfortable and be passive and not be what they were brought there to be. So, yeah, we were always in turmoil. The thing goes down. We had a new chancellor, ended up firing coach, basically giving them an ultimatum.

wasn't going to take the job, but we had five seniors on that team. I was at the time, the associate head coach and the recruiting coordinator. So a lot of those guys were our guys, and I went to hugs, and I said, hey, man, I'm not going to do this if you don't want me to, but I do, you know, I know these kids are here, and they came to play for you, and they're seniors, they can't go anywhere. You know, we had a couple of kids that signed that didn't show up, and, you know, so we were, we were only sitting on about eight kids, but five of them were seniors. So he was like, hey, do you think you can win? Because I don't want it to ruin your career. I go if I can or I can't, but I do.

feel like, you know, it's an opportunity that we owe these kids. And he said, I agree with you. You got my support. So I took the job. It was the first year that Cincinnati was joining the old Big East. So us, and if you remember, that year, which was 0506, and two number ones, John was a number one. So it was an incredible league.

I go to, I never call the timeout at any level, never been a A&U coach, never been a junior high coach. I've become a head coach at Cincinnati. The TV schedule was already set. So everybody thought Cincinnati would be in the top half of the league. So we had monster, doubleheader. I mean, it was crazy to schedule. I think straight to schedule was like five or six in the country.

I got it in front of me, but let's go through it. Okay, so your first game as head coach is against Murray, right? And who was the coach of Murray at the time? Right, so who's a former Hugg's assistant, but also like, look, Murray's at? You're talking about funny, Doug. So Mick leave Cincinnati to go to Louisville. I get Mick's job. I coach one year at Cincinnati.

I leave to go to Ole Miss. Mick becomes a Cincinnati coach. So it's got a seven layers of Kevin Bacon. Okay, so you mentioned the Big East schedule. Okay, so you start to your office. You guys are doing well. You're 13 and 2 after beating Marquette. You go to Yukon.

I got stories, though. Let's go through this because these are classic stories. Frank Martin was my assistant, by the way. Yep. So it was Frank and I. It was Frank's second year. He and I were her assistants for hugs a year that he worked for me for a year. So anyway, we opened up against Mick Cronin and Murray State won a close game.

They were good to go to the NCAA tournament that year. We were fortunate to win the game. We then, I think we're off to a 3-0 start. Correct. We lose to Dayton at home. Right. We lose to Dayton at home. Which, hold on, for people who don't, hold on, for people who don't understand,

understand, okay? Like Dayton is, Dayton's always kind of been a little bit little brother to Xavier, let alone Cincinnati, even though it's 45 minutes down the road, you know, as the crow flies. So this is, this, you know, for any big school, right, this is Cincinnati and Bob, Bob Huggins program, you lose to Dayton. Go ahead. And we played Dayton every year. Back in those days, we played Dayton every year. We play them home and away, you know, so this year happened to be at Cincinnati. The next year could be in Dayton. But we played them every year for a number of years. Huggers is great about that.

So anyway, we lose that game. First time that Cincinnati had lost at home to Dayton in fifth third arena. So that's on my moniker. Next, we play John Caliperi, DeWan Wagner, that Memphis team, they come in and beat us. I think they were top 10 in the country, maybe top 20. So now we're three and two, and it's the first time in the history of the building, which was built in 1989, that Cincinnati had lost back-to-back home games in the non-league. So again, now that's on my mantle.

So now we're three-and-two, and I'm looking around like, oh, shit, this might have been a bad decision. Well, then we go to Vanderbilt. And let me tell you the story. This is the greatest story of ever. You've been in Ohio, and you know how the weather changes quickly. So we are scheduled to practice. Get on a bus, go to the airport, fly to Vanderbilt, play – flight of Nashville, play Vanderbilt the next day on national TV.

We go into the arena, and it was kind of drizzling, a little snow. We come out and we're in a full-scale snowstorm. Airport closed down. roads blocked. We're sitting there thinking, what the hell do we do? We ended up busing. That's not that far of a bus drive under normal circumstances. Cincinnati to Nashville was about four to a half, five hours.

But under those circumstances where interstates are froze and wrecks, it took us like 14 hours. So we literally get to Nashville. You know, there's a Marriott that is kind of connected right there to Memorial Coliseum or Memorial Gymnasium. We get in about early afternoon. We take a little nap. We don't shoot around or anything. We go to the gym. And they had a 26-game home-winning streak

versus 9 SEC opponents, and we pop them. We then run off 10 in a row to get the 13-and-2, 2-0 in the Big East. We're playing on Big Monday, nationally ranked against Yukon, and my third-leading score. Tours A-C-L. We've got any more meat-coly. Towards ACL. And for there, we just kind of fought and scrapped our way to a respectable season.

Yeah, I mean, you go to the NIT and you're losing the third round of the NIT. All right, so the season. Leonardi will tell you this, because I've had this conversation with Joe on air last year. Joe Lennardi had us going in as an 8-9 seed, and we didn't get in. He will tell you to this date it was the biggest miss he's had in Brackett. This was early in the process. 13 and 2 with him. Without him, you do the math.

We were, you know, right around 500 or a little under, and they discounted. everything that we had done with him. And as a result, it was one of the, again, high-rated teams to not get in. And it was based off that injury, which kind of crippled us. Right. And I remember I was doing TV at the time. It was a really hard one. But even without Armeen, Kirkland, you did beat West Virginia.

John B-line coach team. You know, you beat Syracuse on the road. You beat Louisville. I mean, you had some unbelievable, unbelievable wins there at the end of the season. What did you, in terms of coach? and managing people and running a program, like just in terms of X&O game coaching. You mentioned you'd never call the timeout.

Would you learn that first year that has always stuck with you? I learned just to kind of focus on the things that you can control, and there was a lot of noise around the program on a lot of different angles. And, you know, we figured out, okay, this is the best way that this team can play to have a chance to win. It was different than a lot of it. It's just based on our program. And we just kind of embraced the challenge.

We didn't worry. You know, I had a contract through March. I didn't know. You know, at the time, both of my children are young. I had faith that it would all work out. Never sent a resume anywhere. Ole Miss, they flew out of a opportunity to sit and to visit. And, you know, they offered me the job.

But I didn't pursue any jobs. I didn't have a resume. Hell, I don't have one today. I just went about my daily business of doing what we needed to do. And, again, had faith. that it would all work out as it should. You get the Ole Miss job, and obviously being a guy from the South, it's not necessarily an uncomfortable feeling,

but Ole Miss is a different job and one that you were able to survive it in the old building into the new practice facility, into the new arena. What was the first thing you did or you started to do when you got the Ole Miss job? Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, Me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses.

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being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What?

Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Cliverts show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Kunky, his best friend and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers.

We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcasts. Those days, I was a little bit of a crazy man because I just was the way to do it. And really my stubbornness and lack of understanding ended up helping me because I inherited a situation that they were coming out four consecutive losing years.

Rod Barnes, who it had unprecedented scene to its only sweet six. They had four straight losing years. We walk in. I inherit three seniors. I had Todd Abernathy as my point guard. Todd is now an assistant for Dusty May at Florida Atlantic. And Tom Abernathy was on 9th, 76 undefeated team, starter, played the NBA. A lot of people were like, well, I don't know if you can play the point in the nation.

We completely changed style of play. We challenged them if they're tired of losing, let's stop losing. And we were able to flip it in year one. And that gave us the momentum by which to do the things that you said, you know, to raise the money, to get the building built, exposure, people started becoming understanding that, hey, man, maybe it's time to get rid of this flying saucer. And that's what they did with the first team because they changed the narrative and were able to do so quickly. I felt like you had a great handle on the job, on reasonable expectations, on the type of kid you have to get.

And yet, you know, like, look, at Ole Miss, there's some limitations. on the other hand, you know, you were able, for the most part, I think only, what, two full season until your last one, that you didn't have a 20-win season, which is incredible in college basketball, especially at Ole Miss. When did, is it, what do you think it was the arena, right? Like, because I've always heard, like,

basketball coaches always want to have a new arena. On the other hand, once you get a new arena, it raises the expectations. And new arena, new president, new AD, those are not good things for a basketball coach. why do you think you lost what felt like almost a lifetime appointment as a job? I just think you have that break, full-time leading shot blocker. We went 27 and 9 and won the SEC tournament, beat in the NCAA tournament,

and then LaSalle had upset Case our other matchup, and LaSalle ended up beating and lose by getting to the Sweet 16. That year, the number one in our region was Gonzaga, and they were upset by Wichita State. That's the year that Wichita. We matched up much better with Wichita. Central State because they were more conventional than we did LaSalle, so that could have been us. It didn't happen. So anyway, 12 years, I went through 3 ADs, three chancellors.

I got along with 5. I went 22 games the year prior, went 10 and 8 in the SEC, swept there. So I knew. I said, okay, there's an appetite for change. And once there's an appetite for change, regardless of your profession, typically change is going to occur. The timing was such, and it was just time to make nothing but fond memories of my time in Oxford. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky.

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Okay, give me your best Marshall Henderson story. Well, Marshall was something now. You know, he was really not hard to coach and really not not belligerent off the court. He simply, and you know the reputation of Ole Miss, that the kids there like to have a good time. It's a pretty contained community, but, you know, the student body is pretty active in the party.

scene. So Marshall just wanted to be one of those people. He just liked the fact that he was going to come to practice and give you an honest day's effort. He was very emotionally tied into what was important, winning and losing. But at the end of the day, man, he wanted to go hang out with the frats and his boys and just be another dude.

And I said, Marshall, you've given that up, man. You can't do that. And that was really the cause of his issues. It wasn't anything that he was maliciously trying to do. He just kind of wanted to be one of the guys. In this day and age, when you know, you, you, the SEC tournament most valuable

player, you can't be one of the good guys. You know, you gotta understand that. And he, he didn't, he didn't quite embrace that. He was, but the, it's interesting, like, growing up playing basketball, somehow, like, we all tell these stories about great shit talkers and, you know, and back and forth between fans and coaches, whatever. And now, when you do it, and it's on TV,

people think you're kind of either a crazy person, and then they, fans get riled up. And, what was that like to, try and manage where you're trying to coach a game. The kid does play really well on the edge. On the other hand, you can't have it go over the edge. And then, you know, it changes how games are officiated, how they're played. The second things kind of get cranked up in this century.

You know, I think that he and I had a pretty good show. We had some really good upper class. A kid named Nick Williams, who played with Boogie Cousins in high school from Mobile. And then he went and played for Tom Crean at IU. I'd recruited with Crean to IU. and then came back, and he was a fifth-year senior in my program. I'd already mentioned Holloway and Buckner, Murphy Holloway, was a fifth-year senior. They were kind of the leaders of the team, and so they kept Marshall underwraps for the most part,

looked after him like Big Brothers do. Marshall led, and he still may hold this. You could probably look it up as we're talking. At the time in 2013, he broke the record for most three-pointers attempted in the season. Now, again, we were 27 and 9. We go 15 and 6 in the SEC overall. I mean, we had a good team. And he shot more three-pointers than anybody in the history of college basketball.

He shot more than eight different teams did. And that was what our team needed. It was the formula by which we could be successful because they had those guys could go get those misses. Now, when he came back as a senior, those guys were gone, and he'd shoot that thing and it bounced over the shot clock and we'd go back on D because those guys were gone. And as a result, Marshall had the ability,

Doug, four per 12, which is not a very good percentage, as you well know, and yet change the complete outcome of the game based on playing in Kansas City. Fame is I've taken my team through the college basketball. Upon entrance, his matchup was good. This was the year prior to Wisconsin going and beating Kentucky in the final four to snap that 38-no Kentucky team. I think he misses his next 12.

He's one for 13. We're down about 80, which you wouldn't know. It could be down 15 against a normal team because five of his last six, we went by 11. That one for 13, the guys that were doing the game were Marr of Albert and Steve Kerr. I've known Steve Kerr a number of years because I had an 8th, C L-TL-Tare back in the days when you're not supposed to be able to come back. Some guy that's way back in the day, put up with that.

I mean, how do you have the four to five or six? I said, you know, that's just who he is. And I understand that at any moment, he can change the game, and that's what he did for us. Yeah, he holds the record still. Chris Clemens took 389. Akeem Richard took 392. He took 394 in 2012, 2013. It really is amazing.

It really is amazing. If you get back into coaching as a head coach, what would the job have to look like for you? I just, you know, for me, it's not even really about, I'm not a guy that really, you know, chasing numbers or, you know, it's got to be in a power five, or I've got to make this much amount of money. It's really not about that. To me, it's about institutional alignment. It's about everybody having an understanding of this is where we are and this is where we want to be and this is how we're going to get there. I want to have a good working relationship with the people that I work for and work with.

And I just want to have a fighting chance. You know, I want to have a fighting chance. I'd like to be in a situation where you had a chance to get equal talent. And you had a chance to have some fun with it. I'm 51. If I was 61, I'd probably just ride it in and finish it in the TV side. I'd like to coach again. But I'm not such that I'm going to just take any job.

I want to make sure that it makes sense for all parties. recruiting in the South. What is the biggest ask that has been made? I didn't say you fulfilled the ask, but like you walk into a room and a parent or a guy, an uncle, I'm sure there's been an ask, right? They all ask for the moon, the stars, and the sun. What is the biggest ask that's ever been made of Andy Kennedy?

I try to block a lot of those things out of my memory. But, you know, there is certainly, if you get involved, with culture, you're going to understand that with that comes an expectation of entitlement. I work for Bob Huggins. I don't dance that dance because, again, I have nothing against you. You do it. You know, I'm a firm believer, and you do what your conscience allows you to do. Professionally, personally, I mean, we all have those choices daily.

I don't know how you coach a kid and coach him hard, which I believe you have to in order to have a chance to be successful if you've done something illegal to get him. So that was really, it had nothing to do with all I think it's right. I think it's wrong. You know, this is, again, this is a free will society. I'm just not into that simply because I don't know how you coach a kid and hold him accountable if he, if you've done something that puts you in a,

in a predicament in order to get him. Okay, but you still didn't answer my question. Nobody's got to like coach. Yeah, I'm not going to have to get him. We're going to have to get it. I'll tell you that. You know, we were involved with some kids. You know, I've been asked for six figures cash.

So I start doing the math in my head. I'm thinking so you're talking about a house. It's really kind of, okay, so when the ask is made, is it the kid actually? I'll tell you this, Doug. And you know this, but I'm going to say this for your listeners. That's why when you see these numbers like, oh, man, so-and-so, gave so-and-so, $11,000 or so-and-so, $15,000. laughable. I want to tell everybody it's laughable.

The Fed got, you know, some of the monetary, oh, they gave him $4,000 in order to sway a prize thousand dollars. Add some zeros. Okay, so how does it work, how does it work, though? Is it the kid? Is it the kid? Is there somebody else who's kind of a go-between? Like when you're in order to get into the house? It's never the kid. It's never the player. It's all being the charge, whether it be a relative, whether it be an associate, whether it be a coach. It's always something. It's always something. somebody else. It's never the kid. Now, I'm not saying, I don't sit here with my head in the sand, completely oblivious to what is, you know, the adults in the room are the ones that are trying to. Okay. So if you were, if you were in charge and you said, here's the way it should work.

How would you do it? Would you, because, you know, like, part of this deal with the name and likeness thing is it's really this, it's just paying a kid, right? You get like, you go down and you go like, hey man, will you throw in on this kid if we get him? Sure. Right. It ends up being pay for place. So, so how do, how would you, how would you, how would you? how would you do it if I said, what's the most? Because one of the things I do think it's really hard is, like, look, some of these kids do come from dire poverty. A lot of, some of the many of them do not. And I think one of the great things that's changed since you and I were in school is like, look, it's a pretty good life when you're a college athlete, right? You're getting cost of attendance. It's so different.

It's the best day in age. And I know, and I know, you know, we're going through this image and like this. And I have some thoughts on all, share. But I, I, I, now is the. best with the whole cost of attendance, with the ability, you know, back in the day, if you had a flat tire, you know, there was no way in which you could get it fixed unless your mom and dad or whoever helped you fix it. If you wanted to fly home, you lived in California, you played at Christmas. Well, now all of that, you know, there's not travel for parents to certain

things. I mean, so it's really, I'm for the image and likeness. I'm for the Olympic model, but I don't think you can give the money to the kid while he's still there. In other words, Doug Gottlieb goes to him. Somebody wants to give him. Somebody wants to give him. him image and likeness. They want to give you $100,000. I don't think I can give it to you, Doug, when you're a freshman, and say, hey, here's $100,000. I think that's a trust or some kind of financial control. And the only stipulation for you to get that money is you have to leave in good academic standing. A lot of people that don't make him get his degree. I don't think that's realistic. But if he wants to get image and likeness originally, all he's got to do is just

just disappear, finishing good academic standing. Image and likeness becomes yours immediately. I just look at it from a coaching standpoint. Number one, stay within federal mandate and law. Number two is I look at it from a coach. And if Doug Gottlie, I know, is getting 50 grand, and he went out and bought him, he ain't getting nothing. And then guess what? Doug ain't going to get the ball.

It creates so much animosity. And it's a bad look on every front. But again, if the kid turns out of it. But what happens when, like, what happens if the kid decides to leave? Right? Like, okay, you're supposed to be a spokesperson. for the pigly-wiggly or whatever, like, now I'm going to leave? Or, you know, what happens if the kid gets benched, right?

Is he still like, wait a... To me, if he leaves in good academic standing, it's his money. That's big... If Pigley-Wiggly wants to pay Doug Gottlieb to come be on their poster because that's to come to school, and then Doug doesn't turn out to what they thought he was, or Doug ends up making a move and leaving as long as he leaves in good standing, I mean, that money's gone.

And I don't think it just should sit there. I think it should sit there, and they should have the opportunity to let it work for him, if they want to put it in the market, if they want to buy bonds, if they want to put it into money market, whatever. Okay, so what about the idea of this is like, look,

if you're going to get, here's the big thing kind of you're getting to, which is you're essentially a professional athlete, you're going to have to pay taxes on that money, right? The name and likeness money. And the big thing is college athletics, there's no, you're not paying taxes on benefits,

they're not paying taxes on the donations that, that they get, that they're able to invest, I'm talking about the schools themselves. Aren't you becoming a, a professional athlete, and doesn't that mean we have to tax the scholarship? Won't somebody want to tax the benefits of scholarships? Well, you know the answer to that.

His uncle's going to want his. There's going to be some taxation involved. I agree. I think it's like anything else. It's almost like an IRA again. That Godley gets $100 grand. His freshman year, it sits in there. It grows to $125.

He leaves at the end of his sophomore year. He pulls it out. He pays taxes on it. See, my deal is this is, I think that's, The whole thing, the being the spokesman of the pigly-wiggly, all these things are there for you after you get done playing, whenever that is. And like you're talking about putting in an IRA. That's essentially what you're investing in with your education, with your degree. And I'm not going to sit here and lie to people and tell you that you learn anything profound always when you go to school that you're going to use in the professional workplace.

But that time that you invest, those are the people that you're around, those are the people that are going to be the movers and the shakers. and hire you or do business with you. Like there's a certain value to getting into school you couldn't get into, to being in school, to the relationships they're established. And everyone's talking about, well, what do you get when you're done? Like, that's what you get when you're done. You get a whole life and a whole professional perspective. I actually don't think you need because I realize if you take,

there's only certain amount of money that these people have to spend on athletics, right? if you're going to take it out of the piggly-wiggly, well, then why would I invest in the athletic department and being the official supermarket of the, if I can invest in the quarterback or the point guard? Well, I think this, though, Doug, I think if I'm the University of Mississippi Athletic Association, and, you know, I need Doug Gottlieb to help me, you know,

go get a good wide receiver, and he gives image of likeness, he's still going to have to pay the freight in order to get a parking pass in order to get a box in order to get courtside seats in order to I mean that those bills still have to be paid so I think it's going to be I'm not a big believer there's only a handful of schools go down the roster and most everyone would have an image and likeness agreement there's only a few that would do that the rest I think it's much ado about nothing this is going to affect you know five percent of collegiate athletes and the other 95% nothing's going to change. Yeah, which is why I don't understand what you do it.

I just because, I mean, especially they're going to change the rule so kids can go straight out of school and go to the pros in a couple of years anyway. You already have the G League where they can go. Kids are going overseas. Like I don't, I just, I've never understood a deal that works out for about 95, 90%, maybe a low number, but 95% of college basketball. players this thing works out great for. I don't know if you completely change the system, but I guess obviously the government and media people getting involved is kind of forcing some sort of change.

It'll be fast. Let me, I know you got to run. I want to quickly, I got a couple of actual basketball questions for you. One of your former assistants is Mike White. I think he's a great dude. He's been to a Final Four.

There were some really lofty expectations of his team. They haven't played as well as people would think they've been playing it's very early in the year. What are your thoughts on the Gator so far? Well, it's actually he hadn't gone to a final point. He went to an elite eight if you remember. That was your Frank Martin beating. Remember in New York City? It was an epic

game against two of my guys, and that was when Frank got that incredible run. I actually did the Towson Florida. Mike has done a great job. I'll tell you what he's done. Even better than the wins and losses, and those people advanced in the NCAA tournament to three of those four years. Well, I am really impressed

the fact that he just hasn't ran from being in the shadow of Billy Donovan. I mean, when you come after Billy and everybody kind of compared him to a young Billy Donovan and for all the reasons that you can imagine, he hasn't shot away from that at all. I went up in their practice. There's still more Billy Donovan pictures in there than him. I mean, just shows you that Mike's very, very comfortable with his own skin. And he's got a good team.

They're struggling. They're really struggling with shooting the ball, which is what they did last year. It's Carrie Blacksure. I don't mean the staff. I mean, the players just putting him in the position because Gary Blackshue is a good player. I mean, he was a cop good in that mid-post. He can stroll out of the guys on that team. So I just think they're going through a maturation process

and trying to figure out who they are. They've still got pieces to have a great year. Yeah, Nebhardt hasn't shot the ball as well, as I think people would think in his second year. Yep. And no one really excited. It was a knockdown shooter last year. Those freshmen, you know, he had Scotty Lewis,

who was tremendous and Trey Mann, who was highly rated, and Omar Payne. They're all going to be really good player. Yeah. I think they do suffer a little bit from post-depth. From what? From lack of post-depth. You know, they lost a couple guys.

When they signed Blackfear, a couple guys dipped on them, and those were rotation guys up front. The kid, Georgic Gok, who's been injured. I think he's back now. They just don't have a lot of post-depth, which changes the way they have to play up front sometimes with Blackshare. Okay. Kentucky gets beat at home by Evansville.

And, you know, what happens, the common fans, like, well, Kentucky's a bunch of freshmen. I would actually say that, you know, this year, kind of a rare year in which he has a bunch of returners, even some, you know, he's got, probably his oldest front front court he's had since he's been there. Maybe, you're right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if you look at it, obviously they have, they do have some talent, especially

with a couple of, a couple of the freshmen specifically. But, you know, they've been good. And they obviously, they beat Michigan State to where everybody kind of freaked out. and, you know, Tyrese, people started to figure out Tyrese's got some potential. What are your thoughts on Kentucky now that we've seen him for about five games? Well, I'm sitting here looking at it when you said it. They're 342nd in the country. Now, you know, there's 353 teams.

So they're only ahead of 11 teams in the country in three-point shooting. That's the issue. Yeah, 21%. They're really, really struggling. They've got to find an offensive identity. I think defensively they could be elite, but Evansville, I did that game, ironically, enough, and Evansville spread them and drove them and played small ball and put Sustina on an island and kind of took him out of his comfort zone. You know, Sustina's a really good piece. I think he's

going to be a great addition to that team. But this is a different level for him, too. He probably played more five than four at. But now, he was never really asked to guard on the perimeter. And he was exposed in the Evansville game, give Walter McCarty and his staff and his kids, kudos for finding that matchup and attacking it. So Kentucky struggled. You know, it's not a typical John Caliperi. Go get it off the offensive glass and put it back

in. It's his worst offensive rebounding team to date. Those are things that I think are correctable. I think he will correct those in time. But as you all know, you take some early losses. I don't think the Evansville loss is going to affect them one way or the other because it's Kentucky and they're going to play, you know, 25 other quality games to close.

the season, but they've got to figure out who they are offensively without question. It's funny, you put on at Sustina. So I did, I did some Bucknell games a couple years ago, and I think what people don't understand the different, they don't like, maybe they understand it, but they don't love the idea of different levels, right? There's just a different, and Bucknell is, I guess we'll call it mid-major, but it's like one of the best low major to mid-maid. Yes, mid-major minus, and in their league, it's a wrap. Like, they have the best facility. they have the most investment, the resources, and the coaching is really good.

And they have better players than everybody else. That's why they dominate that league. But now you come up into a higher level. And granted, Evansville obviously is probably more of a mid-major minus as well. But the higher level, like that power forward position, like you're going to have dudes there. Either you're going to have somebody who's 6-8, 6-9 and legit athletic or you have somebody playing small. And now he's going to have to guard a 6-6-6 wing where he's going to have to move his feet. an incredibly difficult transition.

And then the rest of the, so it's like he was at a low, a mid-major minus for a reason, right? And then now you have some, some of his Kentucky kids, like Nick Richards, like, they're good players. But the reason, there's a reason they've hung around Kentucky for a couple of years. It's not, I'm not trying to disparage them as human beings or players, but like if they were pros, they'd be in the pros. And so I think it's going to be really interesting.

And the shooting thing, like, Jizang can shoot, but I don't think he's ready for this level this early in his career. Maxi's a score, not a shooter. And so, yeah, like, I don't know. I think the defensive stuff is fixable. I agree with you that they can be more connected and they will be. And I think Cal's a hell of a coach because he coaches each individual kid as much as the team. I just don't know how much you can fix when you can't score.

That's a really hard way to live. Well, quickly become a 12 or 13 point guy in the game that can count on. Ashton Hakey's got to finish in the paint. I think he's tremendous at getting to his spot. He's not a great finisher at the rim, which is problematic. And Sustina's got to be a knock-down shooter. That's what they thought he was. Stretch four, knock it down.

They got to get E.J. Montgomery back. Last year when I did a bunch of their games, I thought he was a guy that could be a double-figure guy as a sophomore. He's been hurt. He's been, you know, in and out of the doghouse. There's been some questions about as it relates to his approach and, you know, how tough is he? and now he's banged up. And I think he's a guy that's wired to score that can really help him in that mid-post.

They don't have anybody. You know, last year they needed a basket, what they do. They're going to go pin down for Tyler Hero. They're going to throw it to the block for Reed, Travis. They're going to give it the mid-post to PJ Washington, and then they're going to eat off the offensive glass. They don't have any of those options. All right.

I want to see one more team in the league. Auburn. They do have, they got an older bunch, right? They lost a bunch, but they still have an older bunch. Five seniors, which is super, super rare. Yep. His style is... Like at a high major.

Yeah, I mean, at a high major. But Bruce is a fascinating guy. I know him really well, I think. But to lose Bryce Brown, who's, you know, your best three-point shooter, to lose Jared Harper, who took somebody, to lose Chumotikli and then to be right back here. But part of it is they have this age. Now, they're a little bit ahead now because they have the seniors.

does eventually everybody else catch up because they have more talent, just more youth, or is this Auburn team really going to be that good? I don't think they've, they haven't been super-challeled. I give Bruce credit because I used to do this at Old Miss because you had to at Old Miss. And I give him credit. He goes on the road to South Alabama, which is a really hard game. He wins a one-point game. South Alabama's a good team predicted by many to win the Sunbelt Conference.

But then, you know, you got Colgate, Cal State, Northridge, David. For him, I'm doing the Orlando Invitational, and he's down there. I think he opens up against Marquette on Thanksgiving week, and they play Georgia Southern. So they really haven't been super challenged yet. Verme Doughty fan. I think he's tremendous, and he's gotten off to a great start. The freshman Isaac O'Coro is tremendous,

paving about him at Media Day with his ability to guard, but now he's showing really some offensive flavor. I like their front line. Anthony McClure is one of my favorite guys in college basketball. You're talking about a quality young man. He's already got his degree. He'll probably get his master's in a year. Shot Blocker.

stretch at Angio Purifoy is either in his fifth or 60 year on campus, Austin Wiley. Many people believed him to be a one and done. Both Purfoy and Wiley, people thought were one and done-ish. Wiley, obviously, he's got injuries so he can't practice to play every day. A Purifoy, like, he thought he was coming there to be there for 30 seconds and then go to the league, and to have those guys around this long is kind of part of what gives them a possibility of winning big. And you think about what's transpired?

over the last two years, you know, two years ago, Bruce got the team at the NCAA tournament. Then last year they go to the Final Four, all these kids were around. You know, Samar Doughty sat out a year, played last year, so he's been around both of these two really good years. Dangererpoor, if you said, it's been there forever, better than anybody. Okay, last, last thing. When I did your game against Florida, I think it was IHOP. We had, we had breakfast. Give me the one, give me the restaurant in the SEC.

that when you're coaching and now that you're broadcasting, could be breakfast, lunch, dinner, or whatever, the one place that you most look forward to going when you're on the road? Well, I'm going to give you a bad answer because, you know, as a coach, the thing about broadcasting that it's done for me, it's opened my eyes to I can explore the communities. As a coach, you know how it is, man. You know, you fly in, you bust the hotel, you eat in the hotel,

you bust to the gym, you bust the airport, you get out. But as a commentator, now I'm flying in. I'm getting a rent a car. I'm driving. I'm figuring it out. I've been fortunate to spend some time in Rupp. I love going to Rupp Arena. I love, man, the passion of the Kentucky Fateful.

That place is special. I love that little downtown area right there by Rupp. A lot of good restaurants, a lot of good bars. But I don't really, you know, I'm not one of those guys that say, hey, I'm going to go and have breakfast at this specific spot. I'm more of a nightlife guy. You know that. All right.

So give me a nightlife spot. Well, I don't know Dave's. I'm not getting into Nays, but I do think that I enjoy my trips around the SEC now in a non-coaching capacity because I can't check out a lot of the local establishment. Okay, how about this one? I need a non-Huggins family, best coach, the guy that you, you may have no, like, I don't know this guy from Adam. We don't hang out. We didn't hang out. We were recruiting on the circuit.

We didn't hang out together. You know, even now, like, I just, I think this guy is really, really, really good, and people don't pay enough attention to him as a coach. But it has to be non-family. You can't give me a Huggins family guy. No, this is not. He did recruit me back when I was coming out in the 80s. I was class of 86, so it would have been summer of 85.

He did recruit me. He was at Alabama for one year for Wimp prior to going back and starting his career, George Mason, and it's Rick Barnes. I know Rick Barnes. And I think finally, I think when he was at Texas, people took you for granted, I think what he did over the last couple years at Tennessee got the nation's attention. He's another one, much like Auburn. They lost a boatload.

You talk about Grant Williams, Admiral Schofield, Jordan Bone, and he ain't missed a beat. I mean, they're legit again. He's got really great guards. He signed a McDonald's All-American. He's signing high-level dudes. I think Rick Barnes is the first ballot Hall of Famer style of his team. You know, the last couple of years, everything. thing went through Grant and Admiral in that mid-post.

Now he's shooting a bunch of threes, high ball screen. He's never been a high-ball screen guy. He's doing it because of Lamonte Turner and Jordan Bowden. So I'm a huge Rick Barnes fan. Personally, he's a gem. Like, he's a, I just, this gives me the opportunity to say, like, when I, we played against him, I didn't like him because I didn't know he was such a smart ass, right? And, like, he's, oh, my God, like, you know, like, we, we, we, we, he can,

they came in the league and his first year of Texas, they were like six in ten out of the league and they end up turning around and win the league with crazy Gabe Monecki and Chris Mim. They had some talent now. But, you know, he would sit over there and talk to you on the opposing bench like, oh, can't shoot.

Oh, here we go, four on five. You know, like he just, he didn't, like didn't, yeah. So, but one, I agree, very, very good coach. Two, like, unbelievable dude. I'll give you an example. Final four is in Dallas, and I was working for CBS. and my wife's from Oklahoma, but never been to Austin.

So I was like, I talked to him a couple weeks before about his team, and he goes like, hey, why don't you come down here? I said, well, we were talking about it. He's like, no, no, I come down here. So, you know, he gets done, and this is towards the end of his run at Texas, so things weren't necessarily great. And from arranging hotels, meeting me for coffee, giving me every yoga and restaurant spot there is, like he might as well be the mayor.

He's only an official visit. He's tremendous man. Yeah, he's an unbearable. believable human being. And, yeah, I'm so happy to see his success. A.K., I've taken up way too much of your time. Can't wait to see you on TV. Dougie, you're the only guy. I told you I give you 30 minutes.

You take an hour and a half. People that know you love you. That's what they expect, right? Yep. All right. Have a good day. Thanks for joining us. Hey, thanks, man.

See you. All right. Let me quickly kind of react to the James Wiseman suspension, which came down right at the time of recording some of this. He's going to be suspended 11 additional games. Seems like a lot. Part of it was he played well ineligible. Supposedly they have to donate $11,500, which is like,

okay, they have 115. That's interesting. Where are they going to get that money from? Look, I'm generally of this belief. That's generally my belief. I want guys to play college basketball more. Do I want you to be able to pay a kid to move them? When they're in high school, there's a weird set of circumstances here.

It speaks more to how dirty high school basketball is than college basketball is. And then there's the, did Kentucky, you know, rat him out, much like did Maryland rat out Ohio State on their star defense event. Like, I don't know. What I can tell you is, I just, if you're the NCAA, you want to set a precedent. You want to say this stuff is not acceptable that you can't do some of these things. On the other hand, you also want to create an atmosphere where your understanding of as long as you're honest with us, and maybe that's their biggest question with Memphis, long as you're honest with us, we're not going to be overly punitive and keep the kid out because we want to see him play. So I think the suspension is too long, unless we find out Wiseman or his people lied about receiving the inducements way back two years ago when he was moving for high school.

By the way, next week I will answer some of your questions, right? be Thanksgiving. We'll be giving out opinions, winners of tournaments, all kinds of different stuff. I'll leave you with this in regards to the NBA. It's pretty amazing what LeBron is doing. Obviously, his career path taking him to the West and three different franchises and doing it for this long for 17 years has allowed him more opportunities and the way in which we play now, more opportunities to get triple doubles. But look, I don't want to get into the Jordan versus LeBron or Magic versus LeBron or

and I don't know what to make of the suddenly Kobe shows up to a game and you act like oh my God I can't believe Kobe came to one of my games especially when Kobe actually said they went to the game because his daughter

Gianna is a huge fan of Trey Young who's playing on the other team but regardless of that what I marvel at with LeBron and the Lakers this year but LeBron specifically he's playing really good basketball he seems fully committed to making Anthony Davis a superstar. And we're talking, you know, what are we, four or five, six months removed from Magic Johnson right before their last game, resigning.

So there were no exit meetings. It was a dumpster fire. And now they're the best team in the NBA. So LeBron, and LeBron is, he's their best player. He's leading. He's defending. He's getting people involved. I don't know, you know, he has to play bully ball some.

He has to use his strength more than his agility. And I don't know what that looks like once we get to the NBA playoffs and deepen the NBA finals. But right now, they figured out Alex Caruso's value. Rondo's playing just enough, but not too much. They haven't really even gotten full Kuzma going as he got poked in the eye in their last game against Oklahoma City. and he's been a little bit slow to come around. But I think they're the best team in the NBA, and I think LeBron James has had a magnificent start.

And when you consider where they were to where they are and the lack of time together to make this work, impressive. Impressive. I don't think the Mello thing works. And look, I've only seen him one game, but one of the things that Mello is suffering from, I think this happens in college basketball.

but when guys replace famous coaches is you can't get calls. Like Mello drove in there three times, and I'm sure the first 10 years of his career, he gets a call. He doesn't. And so he doesn't know how to adjust. Like, that's a hard emotional adjustment just to go from a guy that got the calls,

the guy that doesn't get the calls. He can't defend. He has to have a volume of shots. He doesn't get calls anymore. I don't, I don't know. I don't think it works. I think there's a lot. reason that most teams passed.

Anyway, thanks for listening. Be sure to send us a question or comment at Gottlieb show as the Twitter handle or on our Facebook page as well. We'll answer those questions next week. Make sure to tell a friend to download, subscribe, and to rate this podcast. My thanks to Andy Kennedy to our entire production team, I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this valentines with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more.

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