The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Southern Utah Head Coach Todd Simon Talks Learning From Westphal and Kruger, Recruiting, Rebuilding

Episode Date: March 19, 2021

In this episode, Doug is joined by Southern Utah Head Coach Todd Simon to talk about his path from growing up a "Bad Boys" Pistons fan, to learning under Paul Westphal and Lon Kruger as an assistant, to talking over UNLV on an interim basis and finally getting a full time gig at Southern Utah, rebuilding the program from a perennial loser into Big Sky champs. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, and on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be?

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Remember all those big dreams used to have and then life made other plans? With a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van, it's time to bring those dreams back. Start your own business or commit to van life with a Mercedes-Benzheny. Ben's sprinter van. Now, you could win the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter mode four by four that we have. Enter the Dan Patrick show, Ultimate Camping Rigs sweepstakes. To enter, get official rules. Visit Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com. Have to do it by February 2nd for your chance to win. This Valentine's Day, you know just what to get that special someone, because you know just what makes them tick. So head on over to proflowers.com to get fresh

this Valentine's Day and get 15% off through February 14th on gifts for your special someone with promo code Crush 15. See website for details. Hey, what up? Doug Gottlieb here and welcome in. You're listening to All Ball, all basketball, all the time. But we don't necessarily break down X&Os. We try and share the stories of some of these incredible coaches, players,

managers, former players, former coaches, whatever. That's what we share right here. Okay, so here's what I want to do with this one. This is Todd Simon. Todd Simon is the head coach of Southern Utah University. Remember, this is a guy. who took over a program that everyone said, you can't win there.

You know what they just did? They won the Big Sky. So they won the Big Sky. They're going to move to the Wack, which is, I think, a little bit tougher competition. Big Sky used to be a great league, not as much anymore, but they're moving to the Wack.

Todd's an unbelievable dude. Wait to you hear this story, okay? He was a newlywed, and he was the head coach, or an assistant coach at Finley Prep, and his wife and he moved into a house, five-bed-in-house with 12 high school kids, that we're playing at Finley Prep.

Is that a good enough tease? I think it is. Again, we have other podcasts out there you'll enjoy. None maybe as much as this one. Here's the head coach of the Southern Utah Thunderbirds, Big Sky Champions for 2021. Tom, Simon. Todd, I want to get to your squad this year

and the turnaround of the program. But let me start with you as a basketball player. Your first memory of falling in love with who was, where and when? You know, very young. I grew up in the bad boys influenced area of Michigan back when they were just getting going. And those early memories of the Pistons, Celtics, Pistons, Lakers, you know, those early days, you know, Magic Johnson being from the area.

So that's kind of the first memories of falling in love with basketball and seeing that brand of style, the swagger they played with and the toughness and that's really... So you were the guy. So you were the guy. Everybody else hated them. You were the guy that loved him. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we've been playing the driveway. I remember me and my brother playing the driveway and

dad broke his foot in like five places. We, you know, it was no layups. No lay. You played Lambere. I want to be Lambeer. I want to be Moore. I want to be Moore. I want to be moorne. That's exactly right. Those are the two. Yeah. So So, okay, so what was, what area in Michigan? What, what, what, did you paint the picture of what is like, you know, growing up?

Oh, I mean, just a, just a beautiful place. It's as good a place on earth as you'll find with a small town, about 1,000 people, one stoplight, about 20 miles northwest of Lansing. And, you know, just a sports town. Every day, there's a different game and a different sport. you know, cornfields all surrounding, just, just your, your traditional, uh, rural upbringing in, and, and as just a sports-infused town of, uh, you know, people that care for each other. It's really kind of a throwback town. And, uh, to the stage, these people are still, you know,

is this camaraderie still there. Why'd you go to Central Michigan? You know, I was, uh, I was an academics, uh, academically gifted. You know, school was, was I would probably say easy for me, I guess. And so, you know, I had a couple of choices of some academic scholarships. And one of the situations there was they had a centaels program that they gave, I don't know, 10 full rides or whatever it was a year. And so I got a chance and competed for that and was able to get that scholarship. And free education and it was close to home and had a great experience up there. It was really a good place.

Okay, so what about ball? Now, in terms of, you know, you're a ball player growing up, you go to Central Michigan and what happens? Yeah, so I knew at a fairly young age, that basketball wasn't going to be my ticket in terms of playing and all that stuff. I mean, I just, you know, it was realistic. And quite frankly, you know, I have a nerve disease, right, that was diagnosed in junior high school type of age.

but I knew I knew that there was something wrong much earlier, you know, and so I don't have a lot of peripheral nerves that are functioning. So all of a sudden, as you start getting a little bit older, and you start realizing, like, golly, all my buddies and everybody that we play with are progressing, you know, and now all of a sudden, you know, as a player, when you start having bad games and struggling or, you know, turn balls over, you're like, what in the world is going on here? You know, that's no fun.

But I knew at a young age, like, hey, coaching was where how I could engage and still be a part of this thing. And so I go to Central Michigan and actually coach high school, a JV program at Harrison High School up in Northern Michigan while I was in college. And you started cutting my teeth there and helped a little bit with the women's program at Central Michigan, helped a little bit camps and whatnot with the men's program. So that just kind of cut my teeth in college, get a head start. Okay, so, so tell me about this, this nerve, nerve disease. So what, when you say like, it's, explain to somebody who doesn't have it, what is it and what does it actually do that, that hurts your ability to, in terms of playing sports? Yeah, you know, so it's a form of muscular dystrophy, but it's kind of a little bit of a,

you know, there's 13 types of muscular dystrophy and it's kind of the, more of the cousin of it. in some ways, but essentially like if you think about your, you know, iPhone phone charger and you strip away the outer coating of the wire, it leaves the wire exposed, right? And if you, if you touch that wire, it'll, you know, essentially trip off the connection, right? Everyone's at a bad connection. And that's essentially what, what I deal with. All my nerves don't have protection. And so, so they're always flickering. and, you know, it's more of a painful disease than anything. But, you know, when you're, a lot of times it's a later onset in life and whatnot,

but mine came on as a kid. So I don't know any different. How do you manage the pain? Like, what is, is there medication? Is it you have to avoid certain things? How do you manage this? Because nerve pain, and I'm frankly lucky to have had it, but lucky to have not had it, right? But nerve pain is something that apparently everybody's has, like, you have no idea of the pain

because you can't, it's not like you can put ice on it. You know, like, it's like underneath the surface and it just drops, right? That's what people who have, you know, traumatic injuries and there's somebody's nervous severed and then it grows back. Like that nerve pain is supposed to be the worst. How do you manage that pain at a young age? Well, the good thing for me is that they haven't known any better. But what you do is you just make your adjustments.

You know, at a young age, you can sit on government. government disability for the next 80 years and not a, you know, not do a whole lot or, you know, buckle down and roll with it. But in reality, it's a strength because if I lay around or just sitting around, that's when, you know, you start thinking about like, oh, my gosh, this, this, this, and this are on the grocery list of what's killing me right now. But if I just keep doing stuff, if I stay on the phone, if I stay in film or, playing my, if I'm just busy for 17 hours a day, you know, then, then, then it's good. So it's actually become an unbelievable strength because it just keeps me from just being, you know,

sitting around and thinking about, oh, man, this stinks. But so that's, so I've just kind of turned that in the string. So you're a college student and you start coaching high school ball. What was that like? It was great, you know, it was a team, you know, struggling program. obviously you do best you can. I'm not, it was, I'm not quite sure they knew how young I was at the time. You know, I've always looked a little older and I probably really was, but,

but it's, but it was a good, it was a great experience. I mean, you sit there and you're in front of a team and you have to figure it out. And you got young eyes looking at you and they're, they're about five years, four years, five years younger than what I was. And you have to figure it out. And that's the best part about coaching is. And it becomes just to this day what the philosophy is, you've got to make these players better.

And if you make the players better, you've got a chance to win. And that's what it became about. Okay. So you get done with college, right? And what was the plan? So, yeah, college was interesting. you know, I had a, you know, I got a couple degrees.

One in management information systems, another one in sports studies. The sports studies one was just kind of fun. You know, I'd be honest with, I was kind of steered away from athletics because everyone, you know, having this academic scholarship and all the peers in this little program were becoming doctors and biophysicists. And they're like, why you want to be a coach? Like, this is your wasting your talent type of thing. It was those speeches. But I, so I did the sports studies thing as a second degree just for fun. because I enjoyed it.

And then, you know, I'd already got a full-time job. I'd kind of elevated up in a startup company and had a staff. And I just sat there and said, this is probably where I want to be when I'm 35. And I already did before I graduated. And then said, nah, this ain't it. And, you know, so decided, you know, I need to get outside my comfort zone. And we just moved to California. And then head out west.

Let's just hit a different button, hit a restart. Let's try to do something. And I thought that was as good a move as we could have made. And we got out West and then started watching programs out there, try to come into practices and latch down at Pepperdine with Paul Westfall as a volunteer and started getting my feet wet in college coaching. Okay. So you make it sound so easy, right?

Like I just came out to California. Like, did you drive? Did you fly? Were you alone? Did you have a job? Did you have money? Okay. So, wait.

So you're working in a. What was the business called, the startup that you ordered? So it was a company called Last Mile Technologies. It was kind of on the front end of, you know, internet, high-speed internet back in early 2000 or whatever on that area. But so I was part of a company and they spun off. And then, you know, I was in. And they became Google. Yeah.

Well, and yeah, I don't really followed much, but I just, I just knew that that wasn't my passion. You know, it was great to kind of kind of get going. Sure. They offered me a great spot. And I just said, nah, this isn't my passion. So like saying, what were, I'm like, what were you making? What would they offer you to stay? I think it was like 45, something like that.

I mean, which is. Right, 45 and you're like 22 in Michigan. And you're like, hey, you know, it's not terrible. So what, what, when you said, when you told your family, like, hey, I want to, I want to move to California and maybe a ball coach. What was that conversation on? You know, I was pretty strong. wrong-willed young man, so I don't think it surprised them. I mean, it was never, once I kind of made up my mind on certain things, you know,

there wasn't a, there wasn't a lot of conversation. And it was like, okay, I'm going to California. And that was a fun period. But I'll see, you know, I'll be back, you know, at some point. I'll see you in the city. Okay, so what year is this? This is 2003. Okay, so 2003, what kind of car did you pack up to drive to California?

So I had a nice tan Toyota Camry. Yeah, yeah. And we got a caravan, one of my best friends, and now my wife, she was my girlfriend at the time. We packed up, got a little U-Haul, and just got going, got the caravan going across the country. Okay, so you guys, so it's three of you, two cars or one car? Three cars, three of us. And we had a bunch of buddies and people that just kind of, yeah, it's. This will be fun.

It's just a role. Oh, this sounds awesome. So, okay, you leave Michigan. Where did you stop? Yeah, I mean, well, we broke down in, I think, Nebraska. So when we had to put a car on a trailer, you name it. Wait, who broke down? You, your wife?

It was actually my wife's car. So we just rotated cars out because we were already trail. They had one on the trailer anyways because we had the U-Haul. What kind of card did she have? What kind of hoopedie did she have that's breaking down? I think she, trying to remember what she had. I think she had, that's a great question. I think it was a Pontiac, but I got, that's a good question.

And that's why they don't make Pontiacs anymore. Yeah, so we get to California. And we had been out there a few times and I made some networking, I did some networking with potentially, you know, a group that was with the Dodgers. You know, we had a few things kind of going that we were, that wasn't just completely blind. But, you know, that was right in that period

where the Dodgers get sold and a couple of the contacts I have get kind of wiped out. And, you know, but in the meantime, you know, I kind of involved in another startup doing some, you know, computer software sales that were kind of working with some companies out of India

to just kind of stay afloat, right? Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't

always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed.

And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Kunky, his best friend, and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 Podcast.

I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the year. USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm just kind of work on the side. That way, I kind of fun being a volunteer doing the basketball stuff.

But all in my spare time, it was just about, you know, being in the gym. But we got involved in some Hollywood stuff, doing some promotions. And, you know, I think one of my strengths is I never got yet, never fear of being told no. and getting up. And so we've kind of found our way and some fun stuff out there and pursued a few of those things. But it was a good period in L.A.

Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at foxsportsradio.com. And within the IHard Radio app, search FSR to listen live. When was the last time you seriously considered your dream? Did something never thought you would do? How about live the van life and a totally customized Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van? You could tour the country, whatever you want to dream up. And we're talking about Mercedes-Benz van here.

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Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. All right. So, I mean, everybody says, like, I want to coach at Pevernine, you know, you walk out of fire, down field house and see the ocean. How did you make contact with Westfall? What was, what was that like in order to help him out? Yeah, I mean,

I was literally just kind of going up and down the coast and I wanted to be in gyms and be in practices and just take notes. All I want to do is learn. You know, I just wanted to get better and understand it. And then they're gracious enough to share a bunch of film, you know,

and I just, on my own, just wanted to break down, film. I wanted to watch and understand their concepts and the coaches, they were great, where they let me sit in there and start asking them about their coverages. I was just a young guy just trying to learn, trying to figure it all out. And then, you know, one day they said, well, you keep coming here. You want to, you can, we don't have anything for you, but if you want to, you know, help us out, you're already kind of doing some stuff. And I said, I was sure, that'd be great. And so just just kind of volunteered there and got feet wet.

in recruiting organization camps and you name it and workouts, all that good stuff. So that was kind of the indoctrination. And Coach Westball is just such a great human being. It was really good to see that contrast. One, if you were to obviously coach the NBA, coach in college, you're a great player. Great player. And I inducted him into the college basketball hall of fame and people forget how great player he was. one thing you take away from him as a coach that was a strength.

Compassion. Like I thought, like, I thought his style was so different than what I'd seen. You know, in the Midwest, it's Bob Knight, Tom Izzo. I mean, that's the Shadby on the big, the larger-than-life figures. And there's an intensity to every practice and intensity to competition. And coach basketball was very mild-mannered. in his style, but the players equally still wanted to run through a wall for him. And that was fascinating to me because I hadn't seen that maybe style of coaching necessarily

where you don't necessarily have the confrontations to get it out of players. It was more of, I want to play for this guy. So that was a great takeaway. Interesting. Okay. So what made you pack up in move to Vegas? So, you know, after that year, you know, my wife was was a teacher at San Fernando High. You know, she's a high school English teacher there.

And, you know, a lot of, it was an interesting year. But for her, you know, she had some college roommates. I got into, we've always loved the Las Vegas and, you know, visited there quite a bit. So we got a couple, you know, some real estate there. and so she was going to go to Vegas and teach. And I was going to stay in LA and kind of do what we were doing and kind of make it work. And then late that next, right before that next season, UNLB had a assistant video position, a guy left for the NBA.

And I said, well, hey, let me drive over. And back then, I'm talking, I had the bleach blonde hair down to pass my shoulders, the whole thing. And I'm looking at Coach, Krueger's background, the profile, the midway. I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to shave this off real quick and make a trip to great clips, go interview for the, for their little spot. And fortunately, I did and got the position there for a couple bucks.

And we just kind of proceeded on from Las Vegas. And as I told my wife, I said, we probably, if we're doing this coaching thing, we're going to be three years and out, just don't expect to be anywhere for very long. And then we ended up being in Vegas for, what, 12, 13 years. So you get to Vegas and you work at a Lonkuger. And he's remarkable. I mean, I almost went to play for him when he was in Florida. And he obviously played for my dad.

My dad was a freshman team coach and the assistant of varsity. So I have an incredible amount of respect for not only what he's always been able to do, really win everywhere. But he's the only guy to really win at Vegas since Tark left, right? what is it about Lon Kruger that's allowed him to not just be successful, but sustain that success through different generations of players? He's as tough of an individual as you'll come across. And by that, I mean, I think his mental toughness and assuredness is incredible.

You know, there's never too high, never too low. You know, after a tough loss, you wouldn't know whether you just won by 30 or lost by 30. You know, and I think that's something's a very, very strong leadership characteristic for his programs. You know, I think the players, everyone that works for him, plays for him, wants to absolutely just empty the tank for him because you respect him so much as a man and he believe that he genuinely cares because he does. He's a genuine human being.

And he absolutely knows his, I mean, he's such a brilliant basketball mind. I mean, it really is. And he's as good as they get. I mean, I would put him up there in the greats. He's never necessarily had that blue blood job or that type of thing. He's always taken on tough challenges, programs on probation or whatnot,

and built them back. to life and built fan bases back to life. And it's such an incredible characteristic that he has. It really is. Okay, so how did the Finley job come to be? Yes, so, you know, right around 2006, you know, they wanted this prep school idea where they had been floating around, you know, group, investors led by Mr. Finley wanted to, you know, kind of get an option for guys, you know, for a prep school type option out west. And back then there was none. And so this was kind of an idea to honor, you know, his parents and, you know, he's such a philanthropist. And this was an idea. And so they, you know, they approached Mike Peck, who was the video coordinator at UNLB. And he was going to

go jump over there and be a part of that. And so I kind of filled his role for maybe a month. And they kind of came to me and said, hey, you know, there's, we're going to need. someone to live with all these players and, you know, in a, in a house and being an assistant over there. Is that something to be interested in? In the conversation, I, to the day, credit, Coach Kruger, he was very honest with me because, you know, hey, I was on top of the world. Now I was actually going to make a little bit of money as a video coordinator spot. And he and I talked. And I said, well, I enjoy the recruiting process. You know, I enjoy getting on the floor. and he said, well, this is a way you can do that and work on your craft, whereas this role,

you're going to kind of do more the same. You've done two years of this. You've kind of seen, you know, what I'm thinking, you kind of know what the basketball is here. And that conversation got stuck. And I said, yeah, you know what? I want to spread our wings in recruiting, particularly get relationships. And that's how it kind of came to be. That was the main decision maker.

And so that summer, my wife and I got married on a Saturday. And she stayed in Michigan. I flew out on Monday to get the house ready for having 12 players moving in with us immediately. So. Wait, wait, so you just got married and you had 12 players living in a house. Yeah. And we were 20, I think I was 25. My wife was 25 as well.

And yeah, we just get married and five bedroom house, 12 players. and two of us, what's the role? How was that? How was that? Well, you know, here I'm 25 and I'm thinking, okay, this, you know, coming from the college level, you're kind of thinking one way. And then you're picking up guys at the airport that don't speak English. You're picking up guys that are bringing, you know, Pokemon cards. And you're like, oh, yeah, some of these guys are 15 years old.

Some of them need parental figures. And it was, you know, it's, you know, it. accelerated our, you know, we were in it at that point. We were semi-parents, semi-coaches, you know, workout guy. I mean, you name the role, you were in it because, you know, 15 to 20 is a, is a tricky time, especially for young basketball players emotionally and all that good stuff. So it was a great, great living experience. me that that experience living in that house with those young athletes and going through the process

and seeing and hearing all that every single night was by far the best thing I've ever done in my career. Really? No question. Because now I'm in the mind of what what coach says in practice and what that player hears are two different things. And I would say it's a different thing, maybe 60% of the time. So, you know, you might go have in practice.

I'm like, oh, this speech was great, da-da-da-da-da-da. And this player right here heard something completely different. And that lesson was unbelievable. I mean, just the way to manage player's psyche, how to get the best out of them, I think to this day has been advantageous. Also gives you the other side of the recruiting process, too. You know how like when you get out the phone with a kid, now as a recruiter, how is that taken?

What is that conversation like? Now you're on the other side of it, you know, with the kids. No question. And I took, you know, I'm a note taker. And I just took a Bible of notes because guys would come off official visits. I mean, guys would get off the phone with a coach and I'd say, hey, what'd you think of that guy? And then just hear them absolutely roast that coach for five minutes, you know, or or say, yeah, I have no idea what school that was.

I have no idea who I just talked to. And the fascinating side of that, of that part of recruiting, you know, was like, holy smokes. that they see through the sales pitches. They see through the phony. It was very interesting. It was very interesting. So your favorite kid you guys ever had at the house? Ooh, I had a lot of favorites.

No, only get one. Oh, man. Your wife would adopt this kid, would have him marry your firstborn daughter. Great question. That's a great question. Let me think. Hmm. I mean, everyone.

loved Jorge Gutierrez. The Jorge Gutierrez, here's what my brother told me. I use Jorge, by the way, as a talking point for my kids and for guys that I talked. Actually, a different pod. I had Justin Bean on. And Justin Bean has that Jorge Gutierrez quality where every game he's ever played, a guy in the other team wants to fight him. Yep.

And it gets under their skin. And nothing he just plays. but just the way in which the toughness by which he plays, and he just pisses him off. And it's an unbelievable weapon to have on it. And what Greg told me was he walked in your guy's gym, and he just got the job, assistant job at Cal, and he was looking for other guys,

and you're like, the Mexican kid with the ponytail, that's the one you want. And he was like, why? You said, because he wins every game. And, oh, yeah, by the way, somebody wants to fight him on the other team. And you know what? That happened in college. Every game he ever played, he became Pat 12 player of the year. He played in the NBA. And like he came to you guys from like an apartment in Denver, right? Correct. Yep. He sure did. He sure did. So kids from Mexico, limited English, playing in Denver comes to your house. And what, what was he like to be a part of your life in that house?

you know he was he was he was pretty quiet he was quiet but everyone knew like his toughness you know and he he had a he had a great smile you know he did he but he was such a respectful young man like just just a good-hearted person and uh i remember he had to kind of hurt his knee before he was going to come to us and but we kind of saw it anyways we'd saw enough and uh we said yeah and so he comes back his knees kind of banged up a little bit and uh a little bit bit out of shape. And I think it was maybe one comment like, hey, you know, not in great shape. And it probably took them four days of, I mean, not, don't work me out, lock the gym door. I got this myself. And then next thing you know, you're like, you can't trans, there's no,

you should sell some videos because you can't transform your body in that quick in real life. And he did. He, he, he was just an absolute warrior. I mean, he wanted everyone's heart on the floor every single day. So how did it come to be you went back to UNOV to work for Dave Rice? So it was great. You know, I became the head coach at Finley overtime. Coach Peck did a great job. I worked under Coach Beating there for a minute. And then that last year, you know, Coach Peck goes to the G League as a head coach. And I take it over. And we have a great season with Nigel Williams Goss, Christian Wood. And, you know, so I was happy as a clam. I mean, it was, it was, this was going to be the pinnacle. like I could stay there for 100 years and I love that program, you know, dearly.

And we kind of had it rolling. So that that was my deal. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

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listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. But then the college stuff, you know, every year there was a couple things, but I wasn't interested. I liked where we were living. I liked all that. And

then the UNLV thing was just different. because that was, you know, a place that was revered. We didn't have to uproot the family. It was a different option than going to a big East or a big 10 school. And now you get to kick all those kids out of your house. Yeah, yeah. And by that time, when I thought I was the head coach, we were, we were, you know, we'd gotten out of the house.

We graduated from the house at that stage. So we had some normalcy. And, but yeah, it was. It was interesting, but it was just, and I respect Dave, Tom, Dave's such a good person. I felt like we could get players. I wanted to really see if our ability to get players translated and the way we develop players, like did that translate to the college level? You're always going to happen.

Why did? Well, you did. I obviously brought Christian with you. You guys had, you know, Anthony Bennett was there. You guys had super talented. Why didn't it work? we were too young to be honest with you know we were too young to be honest with you know no one wants to hear that and it's such a cliche but uh we had we had such roster turnover

I kind of got there in July of year three and then the roster from year three to year four year four we know we have number three recruiting class in the country but they're young like Rashad Vaugh and pat McCaw and Christian Wood was a sophomore and these guys are young guys were shot as a 17-year-old college freshman. And so they're all just trying to figure it out with all great aspirations. And we could eat anybody, but we could lose anybody when you're young like that. And never really quite found that stable, multiple-year piece at the point guard position. You know, I think, I think, you know, that was probably our Achilles heel,

because I think if we maybe got that a little bit more two, three-year organized point guard just to kind of get everybody on the same page. We could have, but we're, you know, when you're kind of having a one-year guys at that spot, as you know, you get a little bit, you know, out of sorts at times. So, you know, and then by the time that last year came around, you know, your, the pressure maybe was, was built to where it was impacting them, you know, our players. But it was great lessons. I mean, just phenomenal lessons for a young early 30s guy to go through all that and, and, you know, take away. things. I wouldn't do anything different because now we now can see all the all of things that would do a little bit differently to manage those situations. If you design, engineer, build, or maintain buildings in California, you can get free technical training, continuing education credits and prepare for a range of certifications through PG&E's online classes. Enroll at pg.e.com and we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the and then.

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Take me through that day and how you found out. Yeah, you just don't see those things in college sports at the time. Now you're starting to see it more and more often, the mid-year type of thing. But it was, you know, the pressure was mounting a little bit. We had earlier in the season, you know, knocked off Oregon who beat the pack, it won the Pac-12. We've knocked off Indiana. We won the, you know, Big Ten that year. So we had some early success and then, you know,

had a little rough patch toward the end of that December and then played three, three tight games, one, you know, all close, close games and go start 0 and three in the lead, right? We lose that buzzer against Fresno State and then have the Colorado State, Wyoming trip and, you know, have leads and just kind of fall behind in both of those two games. And so the pressure was kind of mounting. and, you know, and there was talk and you're just trying to, at this point, you're just trying to keep your head down. You're just trying to keep working, keep, keep pounding the rock and hoping something good happens. And then, you know, it kind of gets different.

It was a Sunday morning and, you know, get a phone call that, hey, we're making a change. This is what we'd like you to do. And you kind of run through your questions because you're, you know, I'm loyal to date. and, you know, hey, what, what, what are my options here, you know, and, you know, I'm like, no, we're asking you to do this. And, you know, we don't want you to campaign for the job. We're going to do a national surge, but, you know, we want to do this. And then at that point for me, you just always ask, okay, what, what's the best,

what's the right thing to do? And for me, it was about, okay, we brought in all these players. They deserve to have a chance of success and have, some normalcy or try to compete. Let's not make it about anything else other than that. And so that was the, that was the main thing. And so you just had to make the main thing, the main thing. And the main thing was to make sure that we tried to give them an experience,

try to keep coaching up these guys, give them everything we got for the rest of this year. And that's what we, and that's what we did from that point on. So the season is done. When did you know that you wouldn't get the job? You know what? They never really said anything like that. I just knew that they, you know, I wasn't going to campaign. I wasn't going to do it.

They asked, you know, they asked as they said, they were going to do a national deal. And they just kind of said, kind of sit tight. Just sit tight. And, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. And, but at that point, you know, we had started hot. We started hot. I think, I don't know if we won our first four games, you know, after the change. And it was amazing.

I went from no college experience to 10 days later, having college J.Ds reached out to my, me or my people saying, hey, you know, this guy's, this guy's got college experience. And every game was on TV back then for us, you know, with our roster and whatnot.

So that kind of helps. So now, you know, looking at some, you know, three, four options, some search firms reaching out. And so it's a little bit different deal. And as the season wrapped up, you know,

it was exhausting of a year. It was exhausting. And, you know, you want to be around, you know, some more positive. positive energy and that type of thing. It just, it just got a little sideways there, especially with all the injuries and guys that were out. It's just like, this wasn't meant to

beat. And so Southern Utah was one of those schools that kind of reached out. And it was, you know, let's have a conversation. We'll have a conversation. We get knocked out after the second or third round or whatever it was in the conference tournament. And so let's, let's just sit down and have a conversation. You know, I had a vision. Having you sitting on guaranteed money for a couple years left on your deal, you feel pretty good about having some options. It's the worst case. Go back to, you know, I love the prep level. I love doing that. Maybe get a prep program. I mean, I had some things that I was very okay with. And, but then just having these conversations and talking to the AD here at the time, I kind of said, this is, this is, if I was

interested, this is what I would need. And he said, well, you are interested. This is who we are. And we said, okay, let's talk more. And that one thing led them to, another. And I said, you know what, this is, you find out who you are in this business. I believe that I enjoy the building process. That's what I, you know, everyone has their thing. If I was running a, uh, the best program in the country tomorrow that's already been running, I wouldn't enjoy that as much as taking on a challenge. And, and everyone has got their thing. But for me, that was what I learned that I enjoyed. And that's why, and I said, well, this is kind of the ultimate challenge. It would have been, you know, as low as you can get, they were two and 27, not long before, and, you know, five and 24 or whatever it was. And so, okay, let's, let's do this. And let's see. It's kind of like moving to California. Let's get outside of comfort zone.

Get a reset and throw yourself back in the middle of the ocean, try to find your way back. Okay, so you get there. How bad was it? Well, there was certainly, we had some stuff that we needed to get aligned, you know, without question. It was just, you know how it goes. When you're losing, you start pressing. And, you know, I think we had to get the right people in the room from our roster, staff. Everybody just a reset, you know, take sometimes once you're trying something and it doesn't kind of work,

and you just need a reset. And it doesn't mean anyone's way was poor or whatever. It just wasn't work. So we had to kind of get a fresh reset. We had to kind of clean up a few things with player attrition, especially with losing. It starts to come. It's like a compounding issue because then your APR starts going down because you're

trying to replace players and guys are not in a good headspace and you name it. So we had a lot of cleanup to do. And I always say one of the more underrated things now when taking over a program is how long is the tear down before the buildup? And we had a little bit of a tear down here. And that's not disrespectful. We had to infuse our way, and it was going to take a little bit longer. Who is the first foundational piece you were you signed?

That's a great question. Our very first signy was our starting center this year. He's been with us for all five years. Big kid by the name of Ivan Madunich, who just does everything right. Okay, so you can get the job. his specific recruitment, how does it actually, how did it actually work? You know, so I'm, so, I mean, I'm calling all precincts. Hey, you know, I'm here now.

You know, I'm going to take care of your guys. It's going to be the same player development system that we've had over in the past. You know, you can trust us. Some of your next guy. Where was he? He was, so he was at prep school. And then he was just working out in L.A. He was just working out in L.A.

trying to figure out his college decision. So you had him on a list. Somebody recommended him. Yeah, just a straight recommendation, you know, with one of our international guys and said, yeah, hey. Who? Roddy, Roddy, Philpovich. And Roddy said, hey, yeah, we do get a guy and come on through.

And so we did. Got in my car. I think I drove from Cedar City to wherever he was, Santa Barbara or wherever that they're working out as at the time and said, well, we got to do this quick because the windows closed quick on these things. So he was the first one. And he redshirted it last year and he was a starting center this year. That's amazing, right?

I mean, five years for him to be the first guy and the first signing to be in your starting center when you win the league five years later is remarkable. That's the definition of a foundational piece. No question. These guys, he's leaving here. There's MBA, the whole thing. It's unbelievable the story. Okay. So here's here's my, my question is this. You have obviously know the different levels to recruit, right, from having your time in prep and from being, but when you come from being in Vegas, and when you, you pointed out, you had, there's two one and done's on that last team, right? You guys recruiting the top of your, the cream off the top. How, how hard is that

to change the evaluation to, will this work in Southern Utah's league? Right? It's like a different level, different type of vision for what a guy is going to look like. How difficult is that transition to mentally in terms of your evals? You know, and I see that all the time. I see that all the time now in hires because of my time at Finley. We used to sit there and prognosticate like this guy is going to be a great division. You know, I remember Brad Stevens when he was an assistant coach at Butler, like,

oh, that guy's going to be good, you know, or shock as smart when he was in the Mac. You know, certain guys were like, yeah, that guy's going to be good. You know, this guy gets it. This guy's going to be able to translate. And so you see that. And I think it's a lot of the same lines of player evaluation. I think you see the coaches that kind of shift levels. I think that's very difficult.

And you see a lot of. I think a lot of them, I think the hardest one, Todd, honestly, is like, say right now, at Southern Utah say you, you know, I'm not trying to chase away from your job, but you get a bigger job. A lot of guys, they take those recruits with them. And oftentimes sometimes it's right because you're recruiting at a higher level than your actual school. But sometimes, you know, you bring guys like, man, why do he recruit him? He's like, yeah, well, he signed him at a low major.

And he was just his guy. Like, yeah, he's not good enough for this level. I see that a lot where when when coaches go up, they think they were recruiting a higher level of player. And they really weren't. They really recruiting well for their level. No question. I mean, you said it best. I mean, and I think sometimes in, you know, in this, in this profession,

I think sometimes some, you can think it's you and not the players. Yeah. You know, and I see it all the time. I mean, you see it too. I mean, and we're all goofy. We all got egos and all the stuff, but, but I got news for you. None of us coaches have ever made a basket. We can lead the horse to water, but we ain't drinking.

And, and I think you see that a bunch. But you have to, you have to kind of know what your, what your surroundings are, what are you competing against? Because every one of these levels is a little bit different. But coming down here, we knew what we knew that we were going to have to get Mountain West players. I'm a pretty simple guy. I just know this if I have better players, you know, if I'm recruiting above our

league, if I have better players in our league that, or at least top four, I want to be top four, every position, like, then I'm going to look a lot smarter. So, yeah. So when. in the first couple years there's still a lot of loss to sustain. I guess the first question was there ever a doubt. Did you ever look up the final scoreboard the first year and be like, shit, I don't know.

I don't know, man. Well, yeah, when we knew we had four starters kind of move on. And the first edict was here, clean this up. And we had some issues off the floor and some of those stuff of things. And so I said, okay, but I understand this. It's going to, you know, we went into that first year with 10 or 11 scholarship guys. We didn't fill a bunch of the spots. And, you know, we're going to try to clean up the APR a little bit and give us a little bit of a more of a solid ground.

Was that the right choice? I don't know. But, you know, we fought like crazy. It was almost like a year-long practice. Let's set a tone of how this is going to work. And, you know, so we kind of had new. I had a little perspective. Like, I would even say maybe that group.

overachieved, even though we piled up some Ls and, you know, the second year we started to be, okay, this is kind of, we kind of knew, okay, we're rounding this thing in the shape, you know, for year three, four, and five. And that's when we started kind of start having some success and hit post seasons and all that. They played in CIT. Okay, so why did it work this year? I think just now where we've, we've, developed this thing now to where we have core pieces. We got we got older. You know, it's, it's not older. Like, there's a cheap way to get old that doesn't work. And I think that's, there's going to self-correct itself at some point where we're real. Yeah, taking that 22-year-old

that's sitting in the portal doesn't get you old. It old is, to me, you got to get experienced. You know, we have, you know, a fifth-year guy in the program at our, at our five spot, a third-year guy at our four-spot, a four-year guy, it's played 120 games here at our point guard spot. Like those guys know our system in and out. You know, we run a million sets. We run them, do a million different things. And I can just say, like, they name the plays.

So what do you want to call this wrinkle? And they already know the verbiage, and they name it themselves. So that's a critical point in winning college basketball. What was it like to win the league? You know, at the moment, you know, I'm always, I don't do a great job celebrating. Same way. You know, like we won championships at Finley. And I remember looking in the crowd with a minute left saying, okay, there's a kid right there.

That's going to be on our team next year. I'm going to go get this kid. You know, already, you know, I'm going to turn this into a recruiting event. And even this is like, okay. my first thought process. Okay, yeah, this is this awesome. Great. We achieved this goal. We expected to. But I know there's going to be a day. I'm going to look back and say, hey, you know, 20 and 4 in a conference championship here at a place where, you know, when we took the job, everyone's like, you know, there's no chance. What are you doing? Like this, you know, a lot of folks,

quite frankly, that were very against the move in my circle and saying, I don't think you're arrogant. Can't win there. That's what everybody said, you know, can't win there. I had a friend who was trying to help out your former AD, you know, and they were like, you know, the feedback they got from everybody was, you can't win there. And then here you are winning. And I just wonder if there was, if you took, okay, so then you get to the conference tournament. Now you're champions of the league.

You guys are actually leaving the league to go to even bigger league. What went wrong? Yeah, you know, we ran a gas a little bit. reality it was there's a million things you look back you watch and say i do this a little differently we we're a no excuse program we're our 11th day on the road maybe we don't stay on the road that long because you know we had our final three conference games or road games and um it's tricky with COVID right is you don't want to be in airports you don't want to um go back where we're on spring break here so we decide to stay on the road and uh

By that day 11, I woke up and I was tired. And if I'm tired, I know they're tired. But you can't show that. So we were like, okay, if we can get through this semi-final game, we thought our adrenaline would carry us through the final. It was our mindset, but we knew we had to get through that. We had a taxing quarterfinal game. We were, you know, pressing and try and do all these things that we had kind of saved for the tournament.

We didn't show a lot of our press during the year, but we wanted to, we knew it would be good for us in the conference tournament. And then, you know, my point guard's cramping. He's out, you know, and then we shoot 10 free throws and 45 minutes. Our lead guard is just a mini Zion Williamson. And he, you know, his hip is killing him. He got, you know, just bang on the floor over and over. And he just started hobbling.

I'm like, oh, no, I can kind of see. But we had great looks. I mean, we really did. I mean, I think you look back at it and you always beat yourself up. I mean, I can remember every possession without watching the film of all those games. and you say, you know what, we had great looks. And the ball didn't go in. And, you know, Hale Mary 3 at the end of the clock for them here.

And then a loose ball, scramble, buzzer-beater. I mean, you just, you, those things happen. That's the game. That's the game. How do you process that? Because you had, and this is like, this is no disrespect to Pat Ewing, but his team finished eighth place in the Big East, right? And they play, they play well, you know, a little bit of some,

depleted teams, whatever. But they win the common people celebrate Pat Ewing like, man, Georgetown. Whereas, and I'm, again, I'm just using it as an example. Yeah. Whereas, whereas you take over program was terrible, win six your first year, win the league 24, and now it's like, well, did they really have a great year?

You had an incredible year. How do you process that and share that with the kids, the sense of incredible accomplishment, despite the fact they don't get, they don't get the announcement on TV. They don't get to go to the NSA term. That's our existence here. You know, we've got a small margin for error at these levels.

I mean, I'm having been at this level now, I got such a high, high respect. Not only for anyone that's kind of like took on a challenge or tried to do a rebuild or whatever. I mean, that's why I respect Coach Kruger just so much more after going through this process because the rebuild programs is just such a

different energy that it takes. Because like those things, like you're like exactly what you're talking about. You're managing a different it's a different feeling when you're sitting at 20 and 3 and you're staring at if I lose

this game, our season's over you know, versus say you know, I remember talking with you know, Mark Dersen was talking about when going from Wichita State, Texas A&M, and, you know, all these coaches that we had great conversations with. But like he said, he goes, a lot of those years, we had unbelievable years, and you're not getting the tournament there. And it was at Texas A&M, we knew we were going to be one of six or seven teams that gets in.

And so at these levels, it's just different. And your margin for error for coaching is way less. I mean, I hate this. Even at high school level, I respect high school coaches. No shot clock. You play against Stu Vedder and see what happens if you get down six. You might not get the ball back the rest for two quarters. So you learn and, and, uh, Dan, it's so true.

Like, hey, I coach little kids now in AAU basketball. And you start to learn like, okay, a lot of running clock until the last two minutes. And so there's a foul fest. If you're winning, there's a foul fest, that shortens the game a ton. You have an inferior your team. You don't have to hold the ball. You just guys a foul. It just takes forever.

Uh, and, you know, and you, you, you learn so, you learn so, okay. So if you were to give advice to a, young coach who's just getting his first head coaching job. What's what's what's what's the best advice you can get that? No exactly who you are. No, you mean, sit down and figure out exactly who you are as a individual,

as a leader, what do you stand for? And that's your North Star. So when you start getting sideways and start questioning what you're doing, because everyone's going to question what you're doing, no matter what first miss basket you're going to be questioned what, what, you know, And so you better have your, your, your, your, what you're, who you are sorted out real quick.

And there's, how do you, how do you know that if you're a young coach? A lot of times you don't know who you are. Yeah, you're right. So how do you, okay, so who are you? Todd Simon is who when you say, this is who I am. Toughness. I mean, you're going to have to be mentally tough. Like, you know, we're not to, we come into this thing with, I always use the term of relentless enthusiasm.

You know, you're not going to knock me off. get it, you know, the, um, there's more reasons to not succeed, particularly with the way I've came through the business than, then to succeed. So you can't listen to any of that stuff. And controlling your controllables is, is such a huge deal. Like, we know what we are, if we have confidence in what we do. And then at the end of the day, like, there's, like I tell our team, we don't have any reason for nervousness or, or anything like, you know, that's, fear of the unknown because if you put your preparation in and if you just remind yourself that every day, then there's no reason for to be fearing the unknown. You did everything you possibly

could. And I think those core values, but particularly that the toughness piece, we're always going to be an underdog mentality. We're going to find a, you know, a way to just, just out tough people mentally or physically. One of the two, it's got to be our way. Last last thing. Okay, you guys are switching leagues, right? Yep. And so it's a higher level of ball. How do you sustain what you're doing at Southern Utah when you're going into a league that has a little bit higher caliber of talent? Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, it's just the belief that I have here.

You can always count what you don't have in terms of resources or ability to do this or that or the other thing. it doesn't matter. I tell myself that all the time. Like when this happens or that happens or this cut or that cut, it doesn't matter. You have a ball, two buckets, and you better go find a team that's going to fight like crazy.

And then you coach them up. And everything else is not even B, C, or D. That's X, Y, Z. That's way down the list. So we've got to find this. The answer is always, finding great players or guys with great ceiling that will potentially reach their ceiling and then coaching the absolute mess out of them.

And that's where your answers are. That's what it is. Okay. Again, this is the actual last thing. Having seen both sides of it from Finley to now, like you know that what you're talking to on the phone and now obviously the e-vow process without anything live for last year is even more difficult. How do you know if the kid has good character?

right like you're you're at a little bit off the off the radar there you can't have you you can't have one of these kids run around and ruining your name and your program how do you know you're getting the right character when you have such limited individual interactions with them because you're you're out of the way place like you cannot have somebody who's gonna you know who's going to you know and and you're going to get more out of them but you there's a balance right got to have talent and you got to have character and obviously character beats talent and their talent has no character. But how do you know? Because

some guys are not what they portray themselves to be. Yeah, that's a phenomenal question. That's what we face all the time. And kids have gotten great at mimicking it to say the right things. I mean, and you know, I think that's where I go back to

that Finley experience, you know, and seeing how some of the chameleon almost during the recruiting process would look one way and but maybe act another or or in and i think that's that's for it's all about fit you know for us we're never going to use all of our e-vails we that's not that's not that's not realistic for for where we're at uh to go see a kid seven times and sit down with them and get to really know so we have to be

our relationships have got to you know i tell our step we need to leave the nation in the relationships because we need to get the honest truth because everyone's got a guy everyone's got a guy for you But you need to know everything about that. And I need the guy to be like, hey, no, no, no, hey, I know what you're about. This is going to be the issue. Like, just cutting it to me real. And honestly, in the recruiting process, we, you know, I give it to kids pretty real. Hey, if you're into the club scene, if you need to do this, if you need to do that,

if you need to be doing this at 3 o'clock on Tuesday, don't come. Don't come. There's a lot of players out there, but it's not going to work here. And I say that to probably every recruit at some point, like, it's not going to work here if you're X, Y, Z. And most of the time I say, believe me, I'm just telling you, it's not going to work here. And I think you can get, as when your players talk to guys, the players can get better intel, especially when you get a core group of guys that are about what you're about. you know, they can say, hey, this is not one of our guys. This isn't one of us.

This guy's, this, this, and this. You know, they start to identify it. That's very important. I mean, that's as big a thing as we deal with here is to get the right people that want to be great. And you just, a lot of times some guys that make mistakes have a good heart. I can deal with that all day long. So how do you make sure that you have the right character here, guys? I think in the evaluation process, one thing,

you have to, these young men are so good at saying the right things, right? They watch LeBron. I've seen it. I've been on the other side, listen to them, almost a chameleon-like, be able to kind of flip that switch on

and tell coaches what they want to hear. And, you know, every kid's a gym rat. Everyone's got a guy. Everyone's, and, you know, at that level, probably they are. But college is a different animal. So who's going to change when they get outside them? you know, their comfort zone get to college where freedom is a little bit different.

And so I think you need to find guys that really love the game, love the process. I mean, there's a lot of guys that love like playing basketball. But playing basketball and being a Division I basketball player are two very different things. Right. And one of the things, your network is so important.

You know, when we talk about leading the nation in relationships, because those relationships are going to tell you, about a guy. But for us, our evaluations kind of come down. We want to find guys that are competitors, you know, guys that are just in a nature competitor. Sometimes that guy that that's thrown a fit and punt in the basketball is mad because he's losing, not because he's got any problem. You know what I mean? Like, I want some of those guys. Like, I don't want guys that be like, oh, gee whiz, well, we lost, let's go to a movie. That's not, you know, I'm stewing for four days

after we lost. I want guys like that that are still salty on Tuesday after a Friday loss. Like I'm good with that. You know, I want to find guys that can laugh at themselves. You know, we're going to be an

enthusiastent program, but like you've got to have, guys that can laugh at themselves a little bit are pretty secure. I think it takes a little bit of security and self-confidence to be able to laugh at yourself. And so that's another character.

We look for. And, and, you know, lastly, you know, you just look for guys that, that you can talk to. I think it's an underrated, underrated thing. I think guys that you can talk to and they're engaged and they're asking questions. The guys that ask questions, listen to what you just said. The guys that give you like the, yeah, okay, cool, coach, like that never ask any questions. That's me, you're like, okay, wait a minute, this guy's not. He's not paying a long, but he's not engaged.

The conversation thing is interesting. Mike Montgomery, my brother was there. He had a, it was funny. There was a really talented guard. Let's not name him. He went to another Pact 12 school. He's very. And Greg was like, we could get him.

And he's like, all right, put me on the phone with him. And he had a five-minute conversation with him. And he's like, pass. And Greg's like, I don't think you can understand. Like, this kids are McDonald's All-American. He can really hoop. He's like, he plays hard. He defends.

He competes. He's like, pass. Can't have a conversation with him. If I can't have a conversation with him, how is he going to survive at Cal? How is he going to play for me? And that was his, that was like his first, first safety net as a coach, which was I just don't care about your background. Don't care about anything.

Can I have a conversation with you? It's a really, it's an interesting litmus test. It is. It is, you know. And I want to, I want to, you know, the way you filter through some of his candidates, I want to hear stories. I ask these players to tell me his story.

Because it's easy to say, well, I'm a, or if I'm talking to a coach and say, hey, this guy's a gym, right? Give me an example. Tell me an example of why this guy helped you win 20 games. Or give me an example. It's like the good year. It's like the good dearest thing, right?

Yeah. All right. Last thing, you've been great with your time. Okay, now there's the balance of. you've been scratching and clawing just to get a head coaching job. You get one, you build it. Now you got a winner. How do you balance the sweat equity you have at Southern Utah,

knowing that you're kind of going to have to continue to add on playing better teams, right? Like I don't know if Southern Utah fans understand. It's like when Utah State went to the Mountain West or when, right, like Utah State had won in the Big West and in the whack. Now they get to the Mountain West and they're not. winning like hey the players are all better here and we have whack level players okay so how do you balance out that with somebody else who says hey Todd Simon's a builder man and you know we're going to give you five six years to come and build at a different level with a with a greater

paycheck but then again you don't have the sweat equity you have with the folks in southern yeah you know those are bridges kind of cross when they get there you know I'm I'm I'm so where my two feet are, I'm a, you know, make the big time where you're at, you know, and that's always kind of been my thing. And I've been very upfront with my ADs. Let's make this into the next jump. You know, let's do the best we can to do, to instead of saying, hey, we got to go from here to X, Y, Z. Like, let's try to make this the next place. And I think that's just kind of my focus. And I think everything else, you know, I haven't, I've, I haven't had a resume in my entire career doing this.

You know, I don't have one. Yeah, no, they always always tell you, you have to send your resume. You have no chance to get in the job. Right. So, well, I mean, like, look, dude, from a, from newlyweds having 12 teenagers in your house to winning a league championship at a place they said you can't win, they're a pretty well ride. And we're just like in the very first part of it.

No, that's the best part about it. We feel like we're just getting started, you know, and that's that's our whole deal. For me, I've been fortunate. I've worked for great people, have great mentors, and, you know, I'm continuing to try to collect mentors, try to find more people to talk to, learn from. But I just want to be better at my craft the next game than I was the last game, you know, as a coach. And if I just keep doing that, and our whole program keeps that mentality, we're going to keep getting

better, you know, and it'll get better eventually going to reach your goal. So that's kind of just as simple as it sounds simple. That's just, that's why I wake up in the morning thinking. Hey, man, congrats on an incredible season. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. All right, my thanks to Coach Simon for joining us. A reminder, you can listen to the Doug Gottlieb show daily, 3 to 6th Eastern, 12 to 3 Pacific,

on Fox Sports Radio, the IHeartRadio app or wherever you download podcast, you can also download the Doug Gottlieb show. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball. Becoming a magician takes thousands of hours. Right, Ashley? Oh, I'm not a magician. I'm a design specialist at the container store.

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