The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Tremaine Fowlkes Talks L.A, Hoops, Blowing Up at ABCD, Fresno St./Tark Years

Episode Date: April 28, 2021

In this episode, Doug talks with former Fresno State star and 2004 NBA champion Tremaine Fowlkes on his L.A. hoops upbringing, his recollections of the '92 L.A. riots, transferring from Cal to Fresno State and Jerry Tarkanian, and breaking into the NBA. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Maybe not. Maybe it's just testing your ability to write in the country. comment section. And if it's positive review, even, even better. You're going to love this podcast. I catch up with a guy who I know and consider a friend, but there's a lot I didn't know because he was kind of late on the AAU scene. Kind of an amazing story of how I had no idea how many high schools he went to. Tremaine folks ended up making the NBA. He was a second round draft pick, next to the last pick of the second round with the Denver Nuggets. This after, he played a cow for two years and then played at Fresno State for two years. So he played for Todd Bozeman and then ultimately for Jerry Tarkinian at Fresno State.

It's a two-parter. The second part will get into the malice of the palace and some of the other late NBA stuff. And he's got a book. He's got a book out as well. But I want to dig in with him. In regards to we talked some transfer portal stuff. And I had some really good interesting feedback. you know, on from, from, actually from parents of an AAU basketball in regards to what I said last time,

was Transfer Portal. We don't pay attention to some of the players that are still there, right? Do you value the guys who are loyal to you or do you only value the next best thing? And it's a hard one as a coach, right? Because you do know you want more and you want to be more successful. And on the other hand, you do want to see yourself as loyal. and if you really think of yourself as a good coach, the guys who have been with you,

you've been able to help them be better. So I do understand the, hey, look, it's a profession and coaches have to get better players and if there's a better player that fits your program and your culture, then by all means. And sometimes guys are around for extra years for a reason.

That said, it's a hard push and pulls. I think you guys can relate. But it's going to be a fascinating year, right? going to be a fast thing. You're like, what's the fine print on transferring? Because, you know, the next level is, all these guys transferred play right away. Many of them are going to be unhappy another time.

And they'd be like, oh, wait, this was only a one time transfer thing. The two time transfers are the ones that are going to be majorly impacted, majorly impacted. Then, of course, we have the high school recruits. Now they're dealing with like, I was going somewhere and I thought I was going somewhere. And now they took a couple guys in the transfer portal. knowing it's really hard to win with young guys in college basketball with all these transfers. The whole thing is fascinating. All right.

Well, I'll give you some more of my thoughts on what looks like to, you know, what it's a pretty easy tracking of assistant coach goes to a place that lands a player. Davian Harmon, for example, was recruited by Chris Crutchfield to go to Oklahoma. Crutch had left and gone to Arkansas, and then he was head coach in Oklahoma and a D2 school. early this year. Now he left that D2 school. He's assistant in Oregon. Davian Harmon's now at Oregon, right? Like there's some easy tracking guys where there's a familiar face. But it's going to be a hard tracking service to get all of these transfers when everybody gets settled. Without further ado, let's get to my good friend. Stramane folks, of course, start at Crenshaw High School and one of a state championship, then went to Cal, then went to Fresno State, then ultimately made it to the NBA.

Here's his tale. All right, let's welcome men. Tremaine folks joins us. Okay, so I first met you. We go to ABCD camp. You were going to be a junior. You were going to be a junior. And I had seen you beat Modder Day in the Southern Texan championships,

you and Criston. It was awesome, okay? But you were a late loomer. You were kind of at least in the, it wasn't really the circuit back then, but like you were kind of, Okay, so where did you first start playing hoop? Well, I started at Westchester.

You know, you had Westchester during my time when I was a freshman. They were really good, you know. I mean, before that, though, before that, when you first started hoop. First started, you know, basketball was my second sport. I was originally a football player. And that came from my dad playing professional football. You know, I had that. I had the athletic jeans, but I had more of a.

a football vibe in me. And that translated to me playing, you know, running bag and why I receive all prior positions until I really got hurt because I was growing, you know, and somebody tackled me in my chin. I said, you know what, it's time to play some basketball. So I said, let's, let's. Well, there is something like, people always say like,

well, LeBron James, you know, what kind of, would he be a good ball? He wouldn't be a good fault, he would be a great football player? Right. And they're like, yeah, but would he go over the middle? Like, nobody likes going to the middle. There isn't a wide receiver or running back in the NFL that goes like, you know, I really like, I like being year old. I really do.

Okay, so you start playing football. What was the organization? Because I played football from when I was seven, all right, up until high school. And we played, was it Orange Junior All-American, right? Yeah, yeah. What was your organization you played football for growing up? The Inglewood Jets. They're the Inglewood Jets now, but back then they had.

Englewood would name, you know, Redskins, Command, Warrior, Sentinel. So once they changed that, it's still now today, the Englewood Jets. All the time of the Englewood Jets, and that was my Pop Warner

team lead for about seven, six, seven years, man. And then what's the call? It's a classic, though, man. I wish I had some people were looking at it. I was not as tall, but a little bit more different than to run. Those tapes have disappeared.

We're looking for those game tapes right now for the documentary. It would go so perfect. We'd go perfect. What was your dad in the dad's influence? How do you like? You know, my dad was straight up and down guy. He didn't, no nonsense. He definitely installed a good work ethic, ethnic in me, you know, to set that goals.

And, you know, go out there and leave it on a, floor on the court, on the field. That was his perspective, you know, not only in sports, but, you know, in life, give it all you have while you got it. So where did you, do you grow up in Westchester? You grew up in Englewood? You know, I grew up at Englewood. You know, that's where everything started.

I was on the outskirts of Englewood with the, you know, you never heard of Lederah Heights. You know, I never heard of Lederah Heights. You know, I never heard of Lederah, well, because I'm white? Stop with that bullshit, okay? First of all, the King of Ladera Heights, King of Laderie Heights is George Ravling. George Ravling with the head coach USC, and the greatest, and this is only Hoopers in L.A. know this.

If you could ever get to go to George Ravling's basement, you go in there, and he had all the Nike gear. Like everything, it was, it was, it was, so please. So Black Beverly Hills was, was Lederer. Heights, right? Like, that was the spot. Anybody who was anybody in L.A. at the time in 80s and 90s that had a good family, wasn't like crazy, rich, like Beverly Hills or whatever, but it was awesome. Okay, so you were in Lederah Heights. I was blessed to be in Lederahe Heights, man. Had a fool in a back, man. Got to make sure I didn't get too injured, you know, too, too injured. I'd be able to just do

my little rehab in a fool. But, you know, yeah, coming from Lederer, I was able to walk to Inglewood, you know, the infamous Rogers Park, you know, getting my game from a lot of greats there, Jason Works, Harold Minor, you know, the list goes on and on, man. Jay Humphreys was even, you know, from Englewood. He's old school, you know, so it's a lot of history that comes out of Englewood, and I was, you know, right there next door. I'm still offended. You said, I don't know. Oh, sorry, Jay. You got to look.

Shit. Come on, man. All you guys. Fair enough. I will gladly accept. Okay. So, but did you play with an eight? You play with the travel ball squad, right? Because we had, so, so you're the age, like, you're, I was in that grade and then I stayed back in eight.

And that was Ricky Price and Toby Bailey and, and Christon, whatever, Cameron Murray. Like, that was all of our grade. What were you doing? When we were in six, seven, eighth grade, we were all hooping at Victoria Park. for slamming jam is Washington. What were you doing? Right. Yeah, yeah.

Now, you know, I was in and out of the, you know, everybody at L.A. had to go through Victoria Park Slamming Jam. But when it really started from the beginning, you know, it started with more of the inner city ball clubs like B-ball, Hawthorne Cougars, Harold Jones. You know, shout out to Harold Jones, who is now the coach at Hawthorne High School. He got the job at his alma mater. But he had a traveling team, you know, at Hawthorne Cougars that we're able to

at least travel a little bit. And everybody had to do the Vegas trip. You know, if you didn't do the Vegas trip, you left out. So my ball started in, you know, Rogers Parking kind of fluctuated out to Hawthorne. A ball club named E ball club. He ball club was Sam's ball club.

Sam minor, right? Yes, Sam, exactly. Okay, so here's again. I don't know. Okay. So when I, this is a true story that has not been told before. Okay. So I was my dad had his art our teams whatever growing up and we had by that time we had

Miles Simon and we had J.R. Henderson. We were like in eighth grade and when they went to high school I stayed back. We didn't really have a team and so I got to practice with with Jason Hart's squad right. He was on he was on that team with Shaycott and those were the younger kids. Right. I needed a squad to play on. So my dad really, reached out to Mr. Minor to Sam Minor. Okay? And twice a week, I would go and my dad picked me up at school and dropped me at Sam Miner's house and I'd have dinner and do my homework with his family. And then we'd go and I think we had practiced once.

And then we'd hoop. I think the league was there was like a city league at, I think it was at Westchester High School. And it was dope, right? I was the only white kid in the league. His story. He was incredible to me, incredible to me. and it was great.

And I was, it was a year where I grew from being, you know, I grew, I'm still a midget, from being like five foot, right, to being five, nine, five, ten. So I wasn't very good because I was growing so much. But so, yeah, B-ball, B-ball was a good, was a good, like, good city, city squad, right? So, okay, so why did you choose to go? So did you go to Westchester High School first? And then to crunch out, how did the high school thing come to be? You know, my mom didn't want me too close to Englewood Highst, you know,

You know, she thought the influence, you know, would, you know, trickle down on me, which it wouldn't have. I'm a strong guy. You know, I could have done it. Yeah, but was it, was it, was it, was it, Javan Hester? Was that the cat's name? What was the dude's name who was their best player? It was, you right. It was Javon Harris.

Javon Hester. Javon. Yeah, yeah. And then, and then there was a little point guard, too, who was really good. Shit. If it's been Jason Crowe, I know Jason Hart was there. Jake, Dick Crow was boys with, so Paul Pierce was a sophomore, and we played him in high school, my sophomore year. This is, again, before you and I met.

Right. And I didn't know who Paul was, because Paul was like, he wasn't, right? He wasn't a dude yet. He was just on his way up. Right, right. So they beat us at our gym in the second round of the CIA playoffs, right? Here's some funny shit, right? That was when nothing but a G thing just came out.

Now, it just came out in Orange County, which. means it was out in LA like six months before. Right, right. I'm a little late. So we start, like, warming up and somebody put in like nothing but a G thing, like the clean version, right? And we're getting down and guys are laying up and Duncan. We're playing Inglewood.

Right. All of a sudden, now the cheerleaders, they know every, for Inglewood, they know every word. And we look down the other end of the court and Javon Hester's leaning in and Duncan. And Paul Pierce is doing double clutch. And they freaking housed us in our place. And Paul was a little thick. He was a little fat, right? And he dumped on our big guy.

But what happened was, and this is to your mom's credit, her knowledge, two weeks after they played us, I think Javon got caught with like an 8-QA-47 in the back of his car. And so he got kicked out of high school, and they lost in the playoffs, right? So like your mom knew, like Paul wasn't a bad dude, but there were some dudes that were doing some different shit. So she says, all right, you're going to Eda Zam playing for West. Chester. You're a freshman year in high school. How big are you? Yeah. I am, I come in about six, freshman about six three, you know, six three, maybe one seventy-five. You know, I'm still a skinny kid. My knees are hurting. I have eyes good sloppers. Yeah. So I'm trying to put it together,

man. And I'm like, okay, well, let me come in and play some football because that's what I know it starts early, you know, and I can go ahead and try to get my feet wet in high school a little early. And, you know, it went well. It went well until the last couple of games. I got an intersection. I caught the ball. I'm running to the end zone. I'm almost there.

And this guy comes right at my shin, puts his helmet in my shin, man. I said, you know what? I scored a touchdown. But after that, I had an orange size, a lump on my chin. I said, you know what? It's time to retire and let's go. We're going to change this up a little bit. And from then on, I just said, this is basketball on now.

Knowing Westchester has some good history, you know, they had James, at Leigh Boyd, he had the ball brother. And I said, you know, I'm having to part myself small with JD. And at the time, I might have gone to that summer of playing football I might have gained a half for any of it. And all that was for my advantage for basketball.

So I saw that as a blessing. And when that came about, Coast of Witt, I want to give probably the Coast of Whitt, Coach Brown, because they gave me a chance of working itself up from

fifth string. If you didn't do it, you know. Wait, wait, wait, wait. So you're at Westchester, you're freshman. You're playing, J.V, your fifth string in JV?

Yeah, you know, you come on late. So you're not on the first. Yeah, because you're football. You know, let's say four-spring, but I'm just saying that raising, having to come up, you know, and work my way up to first string was really hard. You know, you had juniors and you had sophomores on JV. You know, being a freshman coming late from football was already hard enough. But them giving me that chance because I was a hard worker. So, you know, I raised the intensity of practice, the level, you know, the competition,

raised that, you know, it was intense. And they saw that. That kind of trickled down on all the other players. And next thing you saw was, hey, other players are playing better with me in the game. I don't have to be that daily shooter, you know, but if I'm active on the floor

and I'm playing tight D, I'm helping a stand out, I'm taking the car, and I'm getting where we need to go, get us where we need to go. I'm different on the court. That's what happens. Went to four or five. next thing you know, we're on the, we on a

point. I saw myself as a fixture in that lineup, and we ended up as well, and that boosting my confidence and let me know that, hey, maybe you need to take basketball a little bit more serious. So then did you, okay, so after your freshman year, were you still with B-ball, or did you, did you switch to a bigger club? How did that work? You know, sparingly, you know, it was,

Back then it was hard unless the coach was actually picking you up. Your mom was just going to take you to one thing. You either pick into practice here, or are you picking the practice with them? So if you were good enough, you were able to have coach picked you up. And I was fortunate enough that coach would pick me up. Sam would pick me up.

Harold would pick me up. And, you know, I was big. So I was able to still enter 20 years, you know, the traffic. Here's the other side. to it. Okay. So my dad was the coach, right? So most of my childhood experience in the afternoon was riding, riding in that car, riding in that car to go pick dudes up, right? We'd have to go

halfway to San Diego to pick up Adam Walton. We'd have to go halfway up to, even when we were in eighth grade, we had a couple dudes. A guy named Jasmine Johnson called Bump because he had a big bump in the back of his head. We had to go pick up Bump and he lived by the, by the, the the Jordan, LA Jordan projects, right? There's like, yeah, yeah, so there's wait, help me out here, okay?

Now this part I don't know as much about. Okay, Jordan High School's in the middle and there's projects on each side, right? Right. Right. And one project is like, was Cripps and one project was Bloods. And the high school's in the middle.

In the middle. Right? And I would never forget this. This is a true. So, the thing about how white this car is. My mom had an astrovan that we would take the back seats out. Yeah. So my dad would drive this astrovan and we go pick up these two cats in LA that live

right by the projects. And imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'll say it. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became. became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me

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Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you're going to be. You can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it.

Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but yeah, yeah, literally. But just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and comments.

conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough.

Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions. bro absolutely and that that's two different levels of trust i want you to just really be a good person

join me keer gains is we have real conversations about healing growth fatherhood pressure and purpose on my new podcast learn the hard way open your free iHeart radio app search learn the hard way and listen now he gets a flat tire right right out right outside l a jordan high school oh wow and we had at the time my dad had some hookup with nike so we had these I mean, they're in hindsight terrible, but there were Nike sweats and they were blue and green and white. And we all have them on after practice. Right. And now we're outside the car.

And these dudes are, you know, they're like, you're like, you know, this is the toughest part of L.A. You know, don't be wearing blue in this area. Like, right. Right? And so we're out of the car. We're trying to change this tire. And we got Adam Walton, big, giant white dude right from San Diego. San Diego. Miles Simon, who I love Miles, but he grew up in a wider area than I did,

right? And me and my pox. And every time a car rolls up like slow, like even ask like, hey, man, he needs some help, like hopping in the bushes and hide. Right. You don't know what help they're going to give you, right? Correct. Correct. So my childhood was the opposite. What my childhood was we were going to pick these dudes up. So I was seeing, I know every part of L.A. from that. And, you know, like I do sports radio now. I was listening to it my dad, right? And, like, that was kind of like my childhood experience. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at foxsportsradio.com. And within the IHard Radio app, search FSR to listen live. When was the last time you seriously considered your dream? Did something never thought you would do.

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Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. All right, so your sophomore year, when did you leave and decide to go to Crenshaw? Well, good question. And that's in my book, too. You know, Westchester had won the city championship, you know, and I saw them. They were a tough team.

And as much as the JVs, shout out to my J.B. Westchester squad, because some days we did beat the varsity squad. We beat you guys. But, you know, they were a tough squad. They deserved everything they got there. And they returned all their starters back, except Leroy O'Brien. So Leo Roy O'Brien was a city player of the year. Leroy who? Leroy O'Brien.

What the hell happened to him? He was city player. What happened? Right. See, I don't know where L.Roy is. He's disappeared. He was the big man. You remember, see, you got some history in the city, Doug, you know.

And you got James, Bradford's Gunby, who was the point guard, who was the pre, you know, the L.A. City player of the year, which is my guy, you know, the following year after I left, which I went to Culver City. I went to Culver City with Chris Ellison. No, I know Dominique Ellison. I don't know Chris Ellison. Well, Chris Ellison right now, he's a football agent. You know, he played.

Dominique, they're cousins. There you go. Dom was a bad boy now. Don was great. Don was a good player. I could not guard Dominic Ellis. He was a bucket. He was hard.

Don, down was a smart player. So, wait, when you go to Culver, I don't even know, I never even heard Culver City high school. How do you, like, how do you go to Culver City high school from, like, Westchester's like basketball? factory you want to be a hooper and you like well i can't start there so now i'm going to go to how did you go to cober city that's what i thought to i'm like you know how am i going to get here and actually be noticed you know and it was the cober city centaurs and i'm like okay i'm going to be a

centaur so that but you know me making that transition it wasn't that far from home my mom liked a diversity around uh you know in culver city um she thought that it would have a good positive the ones on me. Like was Westchester? Is Westchester mostly white school except for basketball? No, Westchester was pretty diverse too, but you had a lot of kids bused in too as well,

you know, and, you know, that, you know, that kind of changed, you know, the dynamic of the school. Okay, so you go to West, you go to Culver City. Go to Colorado. Who's the coach, do you know?

Marty Siegel. Marty Siegel, who was there for a box. How are you doing, Marty? Shout out to you. So you got Marty Siko, you got a big man named Shiny Kennedy, who was pretty good,

you know, he might be a way or Brian. And you had a couple of others. You know, were good feeling players, you know, Louis Beatty, Miss Allison. And my thing that was trying to get some confidence

at the varsity level. You want to play. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to be the man early. And not saying just the man, the man, but just wanted to develop that confidence where I was able to say, hey, if I feel like I could take it in a coach, I will, and the coach will say, hey, Ray, pass, or, you know, swing the ball, and he would just retire on my bench that I would be able to make to play, you know,

just bring some insistence. And, you know, that's what we did. So no, no football. No football at all. Football. Football's out of there. We put football out. We said we are concentrating on strictly basketball.

What would Pops say when you're like? I ain't planned for Paul. Oh, you know what? He said, hey, man, you know, Pops wasn't really a guy that put pressure on you after he saw that I was growing. By that time, about 6'5, I'm talking to my dad now. You know, obviously, I had a gross spurt. I grew a couple of hours five, and I'm coming into myself, you know.

And that was, that year was perfect. I got to know myself. Got to know what I need to work on without my strength. And that right here being an effective player working a way up because it's already ranked

you already know that Toby was probably the best player ranked since 7th 8th 20, Riggie you know these guys have been since 6th and 8th grade

so my thing was trying to get to that level where they were. You know I'm being hoops And I'm like, gosh. I don't have a lot of school. Yeah, you weren't even Cal High? Were that Cal High magazine and they had all the rankings?

Yeah, Streaton Smith, you know. Yes. Yes. In those magazines, you know, and that's what it'll, you know, somewhat for me was the, the, the, the energy. And, you know, I said, I'm going to have to put this effort in to get. Okay, so then that summer. Okay, so after sophomore year, still with B-ball, or did you switch, did you switch,

switch squads? Um, right about then, you know, it was tough. I was kind of, um, a, you, uh, ho, you would, you would, you would jump on anybody squad, you know, like, and you could. So, you know, I would be playing. It had, for people who don't know, okay, so this league, okay, it started at Victoria Parkers, guy named Izzy Washington, rest in peace to Izzy. And Reebok, slam and jam. Yeah.

And everybody at that time had the, you got the slam and jam uniforms. you just had a different color jersey. Right. White on one side and then, it didn't matter what squad it was. And then some teams like the teams from ARC from the valley, they would have their own for Vegas and Santa Barbara and other tournaments. Right.

But you'd wear a slammed jam. And so sometimes you'd come in the morning and you play and dudes would be wearing a black slamming jam jersey. Then you come the afternoon, the same guy be wearing orange slam a gym. You're like, what the fuck? Right. Right.

You just wanted to hoop. Yeah. And at the point in, when we were in high school, it switched from Victoria Park to Dominguez High School, right? It became all about everything was at Dominguez. Okay, so you're bouncing around, and then you decide to go to Crenshaw High School. And at the time, Christon Johnson, KJ, was with us, right? And but you guys both, how did it come to be that you guys came together at Crenshaw?

You know, that's just so weird. you know, I, you know, it's still amazing to this day that I got to Crenshaw, me coming from Culver City, you know, this is my third high school. You know, we didn't discuss the fact between Culver City and Crenshaw. I went to Dorsey for a couple of days. They know that. Yeah, you know, my, you know, B-ball. Who is the little point guard at Dorsi?

Kenya Wilkins. He was a bad, okay, so Kenny Wilkins, okay. He was a bad motherfucker. Okay, so I've been. visited when I left, and I'm probably, we're jumping out of order, we'll get back to it. So I left, when I left, Notre Dame, I was, I visited held places and I'm like, I'm going to sit out of junior college and I'll play. And I went on, on five visits. And my last visit was actually Oregon. And that was the year that, that Arizona won the national championship.

Yeah. I visited when Oregon beat Arizona. And yeah. Kenney Wilkins was their point guard. And I, And I had forgotten how much of a badass he was. And he was a senior and I was going to replace him. And he was a bad boy. Scoring point, little, tougher than shit. And Dorsey has that cool gym that it's in TV commercials because it's like all glass at one end, right? And it's a really kind of picturesque, Jim. But how did you, okay, so you're at Culver City.

How did you go to Dorsey and why did you leave and go to Crenshaw? You know, the competition level wasn't where I wanted it to be dug. So, you know, I said, look, I think I peaked out somewhat. And my cousin, Flicky, who would, a fixture, would use, and, you know, mentoring a lot of kids. Hey, please make this decision and go to Kampo. You guys will win the city and state champions. You know, I'm like, Flicky, that's just too much, right? You know, everybody's gone from Chris.

Oh, yeah, you know, they're rebuilding. How do you know this? And then they got Chris Johnson, Mark. I said, that sounds nice, but, you know, we've got to relate this to my mom. We're transferring to that. You know, I have to get this through my mind. And I was excited, but it was hard getting. Okay, so you went to crunch, if you went to bureaucracy for how long, though? Two weeks? Three of three days. It was. Okay. So, and for people who don't understand, okay, so Westchester is, there's the 405,

Westchester is west of the 405 near the airport. Right. You go east of the 405 around the tent and there's Culver City and that's for Culver City High School. Now Crenshaw is in the Crenshaw district, but that's not, no, it's right next to it, isn't it? Isn't Crenshaw right next to Culver City? No, no. It's on a, you know what? It's not as far as you think, but you've got to take, you've got to take slawson.

You got to take Sepulver and make a left on slawson and go all the way down, okay? Go all the way down, slosson. until you hit Crenshaw. Okay, now once you hit Crenshaw, now you're right there in South Central, you're in the heart of the Crenshaw District. And right there on Crenshaw in 54, there you got Crenshaw High School

a street over from Crenshaw. Okay, so, and I don't like to do this to go backwards in time, but I remember my freshman year. So you were at Westchester at the time. You're not in the heart of South Central. And as we pointed out, you're in Lederah, again, nice area up kind of a hilly area overlooking some of the other stuff um the white orange orange county kids perspective and i had my whole life we had gone there's a challenger's boys

club we used to hoop there on saturday mornings we would have games there like in sixth and seventh and eighth grade or whatever so and i had we had friends and we knew about gangs and all that stuff in the city but you know and i grew up in orange california's fine um what do you remember of What were the riots like, the Rodney King? Because it has kind of come full circle with all of this unrest now. Like my memory, like I had no idea that, and I know he was on a bunch of stuff, but I had no idea that cops treated people like this, like zero. You know, like I didn't, obviously you run up on cops that are on a power trip,

whether you're white, black, Mexican or whatever. But L. and I've always built like L.A. It's kind of homogenous, right? Right? Like everybody's from somewhere else, right? And I just, I have kind of a blind spot to it because just how being raised in a hoop, like you got, if you're a racist, it's not the place for you, right? But I like, I remember like when the riots went down, like the ship got real. It was very, very different. And there was a lot of tensions from the city. What was it like for you? What's your memories and your experiences going back to the LA riots? you know that that is a fixture in my life where you never will forget that I mean up to that very second when they cancel school and my mom is calling me to make sure I come from school right to her house you know this is where everything starts kind of you know

trickle off and I'm in the car my friend he said yeah they're looting let's go I'm like don't do mom's telling me we get to we had we had people my high school who were like and And Tuscan High School was the most diverse high school in Orange County. Again, you know, right? And we had dudes, I never get,

I won't sell them out. We had dudes on my team. Like, yeah, we're going to LA and get some stuff. Like, dude, that's a bad idea.

I am not going. Plus, I'm a white dude. I just saw that guy get pulled out of his truck. Like, no, thank you. God, man,

ain't that, that ain't that bad. Come on, come on. Anyway, so your mom made you come home and you just wrote it out on, I watched it on TV. You know,

I didn't make it home that easy. You know, stops people picking up, people over, let's go over here, let's see this and see that. And tell you the truth, I did write around for about an hour, but, you know, I made it back in, say because right about them, things were getting a little bit, a little bit out of hand. Yes. You don't want to be in middle things out of hand. I don't care what you're going to just don't want to write in the center of all that drama.

And it was special for just to see, looking at it from my eye, I saw a black man getting beat up by the police was filmed on camera. And Rodney King, you know, and just to see that, you know, this many years later, at least the recording can be able to convict, you know, a police for his doing. That's special. We still have a long way to go, but just for a, just seeing that standpoint, Seeing that one camera can get these guys off, but this camera can get him convicting. I still, I still don't.

They all got off. Like that was that, like, that was, they all, we could do another, we can do another product. It made no sense to anybody. Like, they all got off. Oh, right. They keep the shit out of this guy. Right. No probation.

They're like, come on, anything. So it was like a sad face. It was. It was. And it probably is what led to OJ getting. Part of the question wouldn't let the OJ getting off because people were like, that shit didn't make a percent. Okay, so you show up at Crenshaw and Coach West is your coach, right? So. Coach West, yes.

So what's your memories of showing up at Crenshaw's gym? I walk in at Crenshaw, excuse me, and I look to the left, you know, you got the bleachers and you got about honestly you got a probably probably 150 150 kids and I'm looking I'm saying oh wow the PE classes are still in here and I'm like crazy and my man says no they're trying out everybody you see up there is trying out for Crenshaw basketball and I'm like are you serious wow everybody wants to play for Crenshaw basketball and you know just just to see that was amazing because that got me more hype. I said, oh, y'all trying out?

I'm trying out too. Okay, so let's go. And, you know, no or not, the competition, that already started when you walked in the gym and saw everybody, you know, it's going to be a competitive, a competitive couple days right now where everybody running a place at a Crenshaw jersey, y'all. And when I saw that, I never saw that again. You'll never see that again. I don't even think

that's a place for the time. But you have everybody left Alexis Gras was gone. We had a lot

of players that were seniors. So it was all about rebuilding Crenshaw back. And if it took him watching players all the day

or night in my good news for it. It was well worth it as you see. You know, I saw Chris out there

and I'm looking okay. Marcus, and he's doing all these moves, just making it look so easy. And he had a little bit of weight on him, you know, not fat, but just thick, you know, and as he always- No, he was fat. It's okay. KJ's cool.

I mean, like, look, he was fat. He was unbelievable, he was, he was, he was unbelievable how, how skilled he was, and how good he was. And at that time, he just hadn't taken care of his body yet. Yeah. And he was, he was fat. It was all right. Like, he was.

He was going to get less. Let's say a little chunky, okay? A little chunky. But look, yeah, he had more. Here's what you don't know. So KJ, KJ, who I love, and he was a great player. But he's like me, right? Like we're talkers and bullshitters or whatever.

So the summer before that year, the circuit used to be you play in a tournament in Long Beach, right? Is he at tournament in Long Beach? Then you go play in Vegas at the, like, the Nike National Championship. and then you go playing Phoenix. And it was back to back to back weeks. And oh, you played a camp first, right? If you were good enough, you played the ABCD, which we went to the next year.

That year was at UC Irvine was good at. There was also a superstar camp. And then there was west coast of the pump camp, right? Which was, so you did camp, camp, and then like a day of practice and then Long Beach and then Vegas and then Phoenix. Right. And by the time you get to Phoenix, you're tired. You're done. done. It's kind of done, right? It's kind of like, we're done. It's hot. And some of those

gyms back then didn't have AC or the AC wasn't working all that well, right? And you're kind of like, and these guys, you start playing with in the spring, and you've played like a hundred games with them. And, you know, it's like your brother, like you get kind of tired of each other. We got into a fight in the back of a 15-passage van, me and KJ, on the way to Phoenix. Really? What's going on back there? I got to pull out on the road. Like, my dad was about to beat both of our asses because we got to fight. Like, here's a grown man. And, like, Marcus was cool.

And KJ eventually left. And I think you guys played in the same travel team that next year. Right. But he was, Marcus was cool. He was like, hey, treat him like he's your son. Like, you want discipline and discipline. And anyway, we got into a fight, whatever. Don't feel bad.

We did too. Okay. Oh, I know. But that's, but it's like one of those, you're around each other enough where you piss each other off. And then you come in. And he's much bigger than me. Oh, yeah. But yeah, he was.

He knows how to baseball, though. He knows how to pressure. Bro, yes, he definitely knows how to pressure. But he was heavy. He was. And it probably, you know, changes. It changed his life when he changed his diet at UCLA. Okay.

But they didn't cover L.A. teams in Orange County. Like, I don't ever remember. Like, first time I saw Crenshaw play was at the sports arena against modern day. And they wanted no part of you guys. And that was a loaded team. That team, okay? that team, they beat my, I had, I went to a public school. I didn't want to go, didn't want to go there because I want to, it's kind of same thing

as you in Culver City, like I wanted to play. Right, right. Modern day, like, they had too many dudes. I wouldn't have been able to play until, like, my senior year. You might have got some time with Sufi? Remember, like, Sufi was, Sufi was my teammate. He was older than me, but they had Sufi. Then they had my age, they had Clay McKnight, who was not a point guard, but, like, look,

the coach's son's going to play. That's right. Right. Right. Yeah. They had, Kevin Augustine was younger than me, but he was a hooper. Like, they had, they always, and they had miles. They had, those are all my guys that I played with.

Right. So I don't remember, were you guys dominant that year? Were you just okay? Like, what was your actual season like? We weren't, we weren't picked to win that game. You know, modern day was loaded. We kind of came out the blue. We almost lost the Capistrano Valley that year.

You know, they had a guy that could not miss from the corner. And once again, Chris, they just dead. You know, when Miles missed a free throw, with three seconds left, RICO got the basketball. That's in the book, too. He takes a dribble, passes off to Chris. They didn't play Rico. They thought he might.

So, so, Ryan, what was it? Was it tied at Miles' free time? It was Modern Day was up one. Okay. Modern Day was up one. Miles could have, sealed it or at least made it where we would have went into overtime

if he would have made the second free throw. He misses it. Hits the back of the iron. Rico gets the back ball, gets the rebound. Shoes into Chris. Chris gets the ball. There's two seconds left.

He actually, I don't know how they did it so quick. Rico took one drill past it. Chris took the ball. He does a little foot shot like this. Two seconds. And now you see the ball goes right in. He takes, he takes, the only thing he takes,

I think it's the ball. You know, he might have took a dribble and this shoots a little shot clip. And it goes in. I found out, I think I found Mark Williams. My man. Yeah. I found him and he got, he got found. I got my boss crying and hurt at the same time because I found out.

I'm like, oh, I'm hurried about found out. So, you know, I was out of there. I'm cheering from the bench. I'm like, oh, when he got shot, I'm running. I forgot I was hurt. I'm running to Chris. and we all running on the court to this day. I cannot find that game,

and that was one game that I would love to have for my documentary. Now, I've got all the, you know, the Madae was shade. You know, I've got the Jesuit game, like Montaigne. But that game right there is a classic game. If anybody's listening from. I'll get, that's not a problem. I'm sure Modder Day has it. They tried to burn it.

Right. There you go. Okay. So let's fast. Let's fast forward. So we go to ABC. CD camp in Yipsilani, Michigan. Yeah.

Okay. So here's the squad I remember. Let's see if I get it right here. Okay. So Jalani Gardner, who he was a bad boy, right? Jalani was, he was six five point guard. My dad's like, that's the next guy Johnson. Yeah. We, um, uh, we, uh, so we had Jelani Gardner. We had Tony Gonzalez. Yep. Right? Yeah. We had you. We had me. We had Alex. Lopez, who I played with in sixth grade, right? Al Lopez. Right?

The Brooklyn Robbins brother. Yeah. Okay. Man, we had a dude from Trayvon Carmichael from Fontana. That name sounded from, I saw, yeah, yeah. Okay, so he was like, I don't know, he was like six, five, six four could dunk, pretty good. I mean, no one, none of, he was like inland empire. Like at that time, it didn't really exist on our radar, right?

Right. Didn't really, didn't really know who he was. we had Slick Rick, Ricky Price, okay, who was Rick, Rick, Rick was always on a rival team. Literally, I'd never played, all these guys I'd never played with before. And Miles and those guys, they went to Nike camps. We go to ABCD. Okay, what is, I'll give you my memory in a second. This is about you.

What is your memory of how you blew up at that camp? You know, coming off that city and state championship and they were to go there, my thing was I wanted, I mean, personally, I know we had a squad, my thing was trying to improve myself on the wing. You know, I wanted to be a small forward. I want to be able to play. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

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On my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, our heart radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. You know, away from the basket. and that camp is what gave me the opportunity. And your dad did, you know, and we bumped heads a lot, but your dad actually gave me that chance. Bumped head once.

I mean, your memory's bad. You bumped head once. Here's what happened. This story I know because I lived it and I was there and I don't forget you. Tell me beta for beta. Like the second game we're playing. And we were like, at that time, you know, like, we should all play A.U together this summer.

We go kick everybody's ass. Like, we just stay together, right? And we were super tight and it was just fun. And we were kicking somebody's ass. And the way it worked was there were four 10 minute quarters, right? And running time. And I think we had 10 dudes on a squad, right? And you'd play.

So there was no, and if you had less, it was like a number system. So everybody played like the same amount. Five guys, five guys, five guys. And then there was a 10 minute coaches quarter. And that was like, all right, now you're trying to win. And the coaches could sub freely. And we beat somebody by like 20 points. And after the game, everybody's high-five it.

And you're pissed, pissed. Really? Yeah, I was like, yo, man, what's the matter? It's like, yo, man, your pops didn't play me. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, he didn't play me. And I went up to my dad. I was like, hey, man, I don't think you played Germain.

He's like, what are you talking about? He just forgot. So you're hot. So the way it worked was we would, in the morning, there'd be like a clinician or whatever. We do some stuff, a little practice. in the afternoon we play, and then we have dinner, and then we play again. So it's probably like the second day of being there.

Yeah. We go to dinner, and you're not talking to anybody. You're fucking hot. Hot, hot, hot. And you definitely don't want to talk to me. And of all the people above me, you don't even want to look at my dad, right? You are so pissed.

And so you were already a freak show in layup lines. Like, I had no idea. I just had no, I'd seen you play once in my life before that at Crenshaw, Monterey. You're doing some. You know, we know you were. Yeah. And like Ricky was blowing up.

Ricky was like the best player in camp. Yes. And so you were like, hey man, I ain't fucking passing. I was like, all right. Like I don't know what to do with that. Like all I do is pass. Like whatever, you know. You did not pass the entire game.

You also, I think, missed one shot the entire game. It was like it. You were so focused. I am so mad at that white dude coaching. I'm so mad at everybody else. Nobody knows who I am. I'm going to kill everybody. It's like that scene of Marcus in white man can't jump. I'll go back to my car, get my other gun. Shoot everybody's there. Nobody's sick. That was you. And from that moment on, everybody know who you were. That's my memory of it. From that moment on, my dad was like, oh shit, he can play. He can shoot. He can play the wing. Go do you, man. Just go to you. It was one of

those like, I'm going to show you and you did. You know what? You know what? Goodness gracious. That was the game of my life. Now you've got to rewrite your book. Right. That right. That right thing. I remember that I was really, I did. I got hot and partaking that I didn't pass the ball or not. But the point was, I was focused. That's the film you need. That's the tape you need to find.

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Visit nhtsa.gov. the right seat brought to you by nitsa and the ad council okay so my recollection of cow is we knew some shit was going on and here's how because jilani was a talker right and if you remember so i roomed who'd you room with that kid i room with jr henderson who was that who did i room with i with alice or germain or someone i remember what i remember a lot of white players me being on with Well, we lost to Detroit, Detroit in the finals, right? Yeah.

And I think they were next, they were like next to us, which made it worse. Right. Yeah. So what I remember was, was next to, so we had a room,

and it was like, no air conditioning in that shit either. It was terrible. It was hot. Hot. Hot. And I had JR with me who lives in Bakersfield

that's hot as shit, and he was miserable. And he would take, he would take cold wet towels and put him all over his body and just laid his bed. And I was, like okay um whatever so jel so jelani and rickie were next door to us and they roomed together

and they had hated each other beforehand but they somehow kind of became boys right and they and thwan walker antoll walker was was always coming over playing cards or shooting dice and they started talking about we ain't going nowhere for less than a hundred grand we ain't going and i was like and they kept talking about cow so why did you choose true true why did you choose cap um you know i took all i that was a good point if you if i look back at it again you know bowles wasn't actually my favorite you know home visit at that time my favorite home visits was were um roy william i was impressed with boy and jim bea i'm still impressed with jimmy because he didn't walk in with anything he just had this and say i got a tape for you to watch on a

school program and then after this i'm just going to you know give you my spill um I like, excuse me, I like the influence that he had not only on me, but my mom and my dad. He gave, he made them feel real comfortable. And let me say something. It's the difference between a recruiter, you know, coach. Bowles was more of a good recruiter, you know. He could get you on campus, okay? Once you're on campus, you know, some things might not work how you want them to.

but for him to get you that, you know, have, you know, that influence on my parents. That kind of meant something for me. And not say anything bad as well, he wasn't a bad coach. He wasn't the best coach for me at that time. But I loved an assistant coach. You had Charles Payne, you have Billy Kennedy, you know. You know, he was at Texas A&M for years.

You know, Coach Payne was at a number of years assistant coach. Then you had Robert, you know, you had a, you know, Kurt Townsend, right? Yeah, he's, you know, he's been at Kansas forever. So those guys really just close the deal, you know, with me going there. I mean, I, and then you had Scott Perry. You know, Scott Perry, you know, has been, you know, an NBA since then, you know, GMs. He was actually my GM assistant with Joe Dumars in Detroit. So, you know, you had that nucleus up there that, you know,

made you feel good. You know, not only are you, you know, having a clue with the head coach, but you have a relationship with assistant coaches. So once I was on campus, it was, you know, me, Jelani and I talked, you know, and, you know, Jolani saying he's going to throw me live. So, you know, it's like, it's us, bro, it's us. You know, that's what you want. You know, you want another, you know, recruit there saying, hey, we're going to change this.

And then when you had Tony, that didn't hurt, you acknowledge two-star sports. It was like, hey, I'm coming here. here, but I'm a better. So when you look at that, I didn't feel like I was just coming by myself. Were you getting paid? No, I didn't get paid, which, you know, a lot of people thought I got paid now. You know, of course, you know, Summer Bridge was free for me. You know, you get countless meals and, you know, shoes. But if you're talking about the Jolani, you know, with the meeting with, you know, pops and all, you know, you know, money being exchanged, you know, that that wasn't me, you know. No, I got some money, you know, but I didn't, you know, any money to go to Cal.

You know, so when you, so you show up, like, you've been in L.A. your whole life, and now you have berserkly. Right. My brother was up there six years as a system, right? Different, different place. What was that like for you? Berkeley was nice. Oh, you just feel so connected to the city, you know, the town. It's a free open vibe, you know.

People actually keep their head up and talk to you. You know, a lot of people these days walk past you and they keep their head down. Berkeley, they want to, you know, invite you. Say hi. You know, you might have a conversation with somebody in line. You guys waiting to buy something. You know, it's more of an open, warm-hearted spirit, a little crazy. It's a, you know, you don't know. You might have a guy walking back into class with your backpack.

That was a big thing back then. Free speech. You know, Cal has free speech. That is the mega-a-deed speech. And it was just great to feel that experience. It was just fortunate that basketball played a way bigger part than, you know, close to with me, you know, leaving Cal. No question.

Okay. So you decide, did you leave before everything blew up? Or did you leave because it was all blowing up with the NCAA stuff? I left. I left right after. Bowles. You know, I was gone before because if I knew Bowls

probably would have got fired out of me, nothing against Bowes, I probably would have stayed. You know, I've already made my commitment to Tark and, you know, and I had to... How'd that happen? How did, how did you get to... Because now you go in the portal and somebody calls you,

how did it happen that you... Well, you know, that... It's, you know, Titan is everything. By this time, James Gumbie James Gray had signed with Fresno he has spent his two years

in Santa Monica JC with Marvin Penzi and I said hey that's my you know Gubby's my guy you know I said hey this might be a

relation for for a president back on a map having L.A. for kids and I talked to Tartreke and you know they feel good or they have good players

I here and I said, you know what? This is the word. I spoke with Danny Carcany and John Welch was coached now. That was awesome. Great workout. I mean, unbelievable. I must have worked out.

Yeah, you already know. Good. So the, the, the, uh, it was a good foundation. You know, I think I worked out with Welsh made the second person, second day. How was there? He said, hey, you want to work out? And I'm like, well, why not?

You know? And trust me, I went out that workout. So who's on your squad? at Fresn? Well, you had a super squad there, man. You know, you had Terrence Roberson, four-time all. T-Row. Yeah, T-Row.

He was on that Michigan squad that we played against. Yeah, there you go. You had Chris Herring. You had Avondre Jones. You know, Vandre Jones, Southern Cali, Kian. No, Vani, right? He was at Artisia with the O'Bannon Boys, right? Right.

Okay, so now I got a bunch of questions out. Right. Ray for Austin. Skip? Like you had dudes from everywhere. Okay, so let's let's start with Chris Herron. Yeah. Okay, so he was a bad boy, right? B.A.B.C. Got in trouble. Coke at BC. He's at Fresno. He's hooping. Did you know he was still on something and he was partying and all that stuff? You know what? He did a good job of keeping his business way. Sometimes his business would come to, you know, it would come to him. And we would seat. But Chris always kept a professional. You didn't know how how he was. You know, he'd come right into practice and start hooping, you know, intense. So the intensity was there. And that helped raise our level of intensity too. So however means it came by Chris said it. Okay. And that helped us right. Too. Now, his habit, you know, you could see some little here and there moments, but we also had his back to as far as,

hey, we're not going to put this out here when he gets suspended. We will say he has the substance of these problems with people laid it off on alcohol. You know, we laid it off on alcohol for him. So people, he wouldn't do exposed. So, you know, that was something the team had his back. And that's what the team was there for. So we came for a certain amount of time and come back.

I mean, help us, you know, our nucleus. If our nucleus stayed together, you know, we had Winford Walton, too, Mr. Basketball, Detroit. You know, so right, just thinking like, oh, my goodness. How did it work with getting paid? Like, did they, because I heard stories about that when the guys were at Vegas, right, the way was you knew, you had a guy, you had one guy you go to on a Friday, you go into their office, and they get you an envelope and you'd go.

There's the old stories of in Vegas, guys would be a parking ballet, right? You had a job at the parking ballet. and you would get like crazy. You work for a couple hours. You get crazy tips from just the right guy. Like it's obviously 20 years later. How did it work? You know, it would be alumni, you know, that would, you know, help us out.

You know, they have their, you know, their vegetable crops. You know, Fresno, you know, it's all nothing but land. So you got your wine crops. You got everything. So the majority of alumni from Fresno, you know, they had a lot of land. And we'll go out there, you know, know, for them to be able to come see us and sit down at their property and be able to bread for us, they're feeling special.

We're feeling special. It was a mutual thing. He said, hey, Tray, do you eat anything? You know what? So I moved down there with a little girlfriend, so she graduated from Cal, and so she was trying to fill out her ways, too. And I said, you know, we're just trying to get things right and say, hey, Tray, come here once a month, you know, if you need me, we'll be good, you know, here's a couple thousand. Hey,

I'll take that. And it's nothing like you'd be getting a $20,000 or $10, $50,000 backs, but it was because the couple thousand were consistent. And that's what you need as a kid to survive. You know, you need a couple thousand here and there. You don't need much. You just need to make sure you're comfortable and you can go about your way. Now, you know, me getting cars and stuff from Cal came from outside sources, you know, and, you see you didn't get anything from Cal. No, no, I'm talking about when I got a car at Cal, I got that from outside sources.

I was James Casey, you know, when I got in trouble, I got in trouble from taking stuff from James Casey, not actually at Cal. So when you say getting, nobody actually at Cal actually paid me. But did they set up the deal with James Casey? Did they say, hey, go see James Casey? Well, see, Casey and Bowles didn't get along. So, you know, the relationship with Cal and Casey really never existed.

You know, my thing with Casey existed with guys who were financially able in the hood to support me. And of course, they wanted their money back once I made, you know. Right. That's the part that I don't know if people, if kids understand well enough, right? It's like when you take money for people, yes, there are people like Fresno State boosters that they just want to. be, but when you take money from a dude in the in the city, okay, you take money from a dude who wants to be an agent, they, they want something back in return. Right.

When did you, when did you find that out? Once I got to the NBA, you know, you know, everything, all the doors, you know, your doors knock once you make it to the NBA, you know, you have old agents and, you know, you have to apply by the contracts too, you know, you make the NBA, this amount is old. If you don't make it to the NBA there, only. this amount has to be repaid. So I wanted to make it. So this had to be repaid.

So I honored all my obligations, you know, with everybody. And it worked out. Were you there during the Vonny Jones, Kenny Bruner, samurai sword? Kenny Bruner was a bad motherfuckers player. Yeah. We played Dominguez. My junior, they beat us. My senior there, they're big.

I he was he is without any question the quickest toughest guard I have ever played against you couldn't really shoot but it didn't matter because you couldn't keep him in front remember tank who went to Providence and he came back to Lombie State shoot I'll I'll think of a next one like I like I couldn't I couldn't do anything with with Kenny Kenny was a bad bad mother right so goes to Georgia town and transfers back all right Give me the night and how it all went down. Okay, real quick, you know, my girl and I stand at the house. Kenny's coming out and say, hey, Kenny's going to stay up with us for two days, two days.

And she says, okay, I'll cook for you guys, this and that. I say, no, we'll just order a pizza. So we order a pizza. Kenny comes over. I'm like, this would be good for you, but why did you leave Georgetown? Okay, why did you leave? You were perfect there. So I say, okay, you'll come here to stay out of trouble.

We can make this happen. I said, just stay here with me, these two days. That's it. I wake up in the morning, Kenny's gone. So he's on his visit? Is this visit? No, he's gone. I can't find him.

He's over at Vondre's house. He went to Vondre's house. Okay, so I'm calling Kenny. I said, hey, where are you going to? What's going on? He said, man, I'm going to come over here and mess with my other partner. I said, okay, cool. I let that go the whole day.

The next day I'm looking at, wake up and watch the news. I see him and Vondre coming out of the jail, getting bailed out of the jail. I'm like, what? happened within those 24 hours that would allow you guys to be arrested and getting bailed out of jail on the news. So not only they're on Channel 2, they're on 2, 5, 9, 11, 13. You know, in Fresno, that's all it is. You know, it's us, Fresno State. So when you get in trouble, you get super exposed, and when you get, do something good, you get super propped. So it was a Cast 22 is a double-edged sword.

So right there, I found out that they, you know, they wouldn't let a, they wouldn't let a kid leave out of there. I, I didn't have went to. Well, they were playing video games, they, and they were smoking. Like, what, what, what, what, what that will happen? I'd say, I would say everything. I think something got, went bad, they got mad. You know, they were playing with him.

So a two different type of, uh, sit you, did you know that Bonnie had samurai swords? Bonnie has samurai swords. You know, Bonnie is, you know, he keeps little little tricklets like that around the house. And whatever Bonnie did, you're going to be intimidated, of course, to a kid when you're seven feet with a samurai sword, you know. What was Tark like?

Tartt was great, man. You know, I wish I really could have got the younger Tart, not knowing that he was kind of on his last leg and he let, you know, the coaches, you know, And Danny's a great guy back that time. He really didn't know how to coach. And he was still learning. And, you know, he was still trying to learn a game of basketball.

You had Welch, you know, as a workout guy, but still trying to get his coaching, you know, style together. And you had Johnny Brown. And Johnny Brown's a good coach more on the quiet side. You know, so we had to, they had to gel all those things in to try to make it happen. Because, you know, all those personalities is tough. Everybody I named is a fire starter, Ray for Chris, everybody. So for them, they get a lot of credit for holding us to elite, you know,

where we were able to, you know, have some success. You know, we didn't have the same starting lineup, you know, but number five times a whole year without all suspensions. But for us to be playing ball at the end of the year going to the NIT Final Four, at least to be playing why, you know, the NCAAs was playing was a blessing. But, you know, for me to say, hey, I play with TARC, that's always going to be special for me, knowing what he did at a UNLV.

Yeah, it is interesting, though, that like you're aware enough now to know that, like, you went to Bose, you were recruited, right? And you went to two places because of more relationships than who's the best coach for me, right? Whereas if you could do a do-over,

I can't do-over, like I went to go to Notre Dame as a duo, right? If you do a duo, you would have gone to somebody who was like, all right, what is the best for me as a player? Right. What is the best for me as a player? And obviously years later, let's just do this. Okay, so you get done playing.

And you're at a place where T-Rope, you got Skip, you got all these dudes. Everybody thinks they're going to the league. Everybody thinks they're going to be a first-line draft big. What happened? You get done playing. What was what do you remember about the next step? You know, trying to get outside that tweener states, you know, three, four. But now it's crazy now.

Right. It's the thing now. Yeah. It's a plus. You could like this. Listen, this is not because you're on my pocket. It has nothing to do it. Right.

If you were graduating college right now, you were a senior in college at 6-6. Okay. Two, what, 15? Right. Right. Yeah. That's playing way for me. Okay.

Right. Yes, exactly. 6, 6, 215. You could guard one, two, three, four. Right. You got football background, everybody like that. And all you got to do is be able to make an open shot every now and again. You play for 15 years. Yeah, right.

You're the man if you could do that, right? Right. But then you had, everybody had to go like down a position, right? Like, oh, you got to show you're a two, three, right? Right. So, okay, you get done. Did you go to Phoenix? Did you go to Chicago?

did what did you have the private workouts what did you do i went to chicago camp um i actually you know dan setos who actually worked me out who was a uh a pepper dine legend had his number retired at pepper dine he actually worked me out really good to make me a three man you know small for it i end up going to chicago camp i really did good um your boy rickie david's like man you really got got that that small fours by down they talking good about you so you know i thought that i would really be able to get in that first round. And I even got a call for Marcus Johnson. Marcus said, hey, man, they like you in Seattle too.

May I work out for Seattle? I worked out for various teams. Thinking, Doug, that might be maybe a 29th to maybe a 40th pick. You know, I worked out with Eddie Jordan. And he said, we'll take you with the 32nd pick at Sacramento. You know, letting all they fire him on Drab Day. So I said, okay, that's out the door. You know, I fall all the way to 54th.

It was a disappointing. I never worked out for Denver. but, you know, they drafted, excuse me, Ryan Bowman and I, which was great, you know, and, you know, for me to say, hey, and then, of course, the last pick of that draft was J.R. Henderson at the 58 pick. So I thought we all should have been a little higher, but I took that in, you know, met Dan Essel, and it was just a screwed up year, Doug. It was a lockout year. You know, nothing was going, was working for me at that time with the lockout year. A lot of politics involved with players on the team and who were

and whatnot. And I should have deal with Ryan Bowen did. He left and went to London first and came back. So props to him though. But you know, you went to Yakima, right? I went to Yakima with Paul Wilper, who was coaching down there. And

that was a tough situation. I really didn't get along after Carter. You know, he was a good great guard though. But me coming and trying to play catch up with some, with guys that already been there for, you know, a certain amount of games. You know, it's like, okay, Trey, you're going to have to take a backseat

and come in as you come, you know, as you, but in many ways, and this may, and I don't know if you agree because you actually lived it and experienced it. But as much as I would tell you that the Fresno situation is fucked up because you weren't, like, when I was at Notre Dame, when I was at Oklahoma State, like, we all wanted to go to the league, but we were all about us. Like, we were tight. It was all about us. Fresno, yeah, y'all wanted to win and all that,

but it was still everybody in that room was almost like CBA basketball where this is just the pit stop on the way to live. Right. The reason I tell people all the time is like, you don't want to do the, and you did the IBL, which I did as well, that you don't want to do, which you don't want to do minor league basketball is no one in minor league basketball wants to be on that team. Nobody, the coach, the general manager, nobody.

Nobody that's the last place. And whatever you can do to get off that team onto a better team is your goal. And it's kind of toxic, but it also like, you know, you go in a kind of survival mode. So I do think that on some level, Fresno did kind of prepare you for it. But it is different. Okay. So you sign with Denver, you don't play for Denver. You go to Yakima.

That's not great. Right. How did you get to the IBL? I got to the IBL word from Oscar Robinson got back, you know, got to me. And, you know, I went on the NBA Legends tour with a lot of ex-NBA. Oh, you know, he hadn't played in the league yet. You go to Legends Tour. That's amazing.

And, man, you know what, it was some type of where they, you know, I had worked out. Somebody that saw me, you know, Oscar Robinson, no, you know, I'm sorry, Oscar Robinson was the, the, the, he, was sort of the president of the IBL Cincinnati stuff. So that came, I believe, you know, you know what? That was, yeah, I'm, yeah, because Joby Wright. Joe B. Wright that saw me. Joby Wright was the coach of the Harlem Gold Tiders when I first came back from tearing my Achilles and he ended up being a coach. Wait, you skipped the step. When did you tear your Achilles? I tore my Achilles. Oh, man, that was, you know, first of all, we're going to have to do, do this so I can really give you the whole run there. I've tore both Achilles. I've tore my

right Achilles before I got in the NBA. and I tore my left one when Dennis Johnson was coaching me at the Florida Flame and he was in rest of peace DJ. He regretted playing me that night. He said I was going to get a call up, get a call up that next day. I said, don't take a personal DJ. You know, that's how it is and that's how it's got to be. But look, I tore both of them before I retire.

Okay, so here's what we're going to do. We're going to do all of that part of the journey. We've got to do the malice of the palace. Yeah. We got to do now. Yeah. Okay. But you got to leave me with one.

I need one quick. Your first NBA game was with the Clippers, correct? Yes. Is it at home or on the road? It was on the road against Reggie Miller. My first foul, I found Reggie. Got an one. I'm saying, oh, boy, my first foul is against Reggie and I found him.

And I end up playing for Rihanna, but that's a later story, too. Okay. But here's the story. Here's the question I want to know. Okay. You grew up in Los Angeles. Angeles? Yes.

Hey, your greatest high school moment. I know you won the state title, but you beat Motta Day twice in the sports arena. What was it like to make it, you had torn your Achilles tendon, hey, and to make it to the NBA for the clippers? What was that feeling like? Dream come true. Dream come true is a blessing real quick before we go. My agent called me and said, hey, do you want to go come to L.A. and play?

I said, yeah, he said, yeah. So he said, pack your bags. I said, we're playing for the Lakers. He was like, he said, no. He said, right. I said, it doesn't make a difference. I said, I'll be there too. But do you remember the first night of suiting up in the NBA?

Like you have, like, I remember high school when I first, I got my first day of varsity, my freshman year. I'd like scared at my uniform, put it on, walked around. I remember college. when I first put on my uniform. And all I wanted was one night in an NBA jersey. What's that feeling like? That's the first thing you look at in the locker room.

You just look around, you're looking like, okay, where's my jersey? Where's my jersey? Oh, there goes. All right, cool. So you're like, okay, now you get that. It's like a good feeling. You know, you get your nervous vibe, get a good feeling that you keep with the best. What number were you with the clippers?

I was 32 with the clippers. I was 32. Did you get to pick your number? Yeah, I couldn't get 24 until the next year. You know, that was always my number. But when you are the man that's coming late and you are the end of the bench, you'll take whatever number you get, you know. But I believe Andre, no, Doug Overton was 24.

I think Andre Miller was 24 the next year. So I couldn't wear 24 until I got to Detroit. Man, first bucket was where? First bucket. Indiana. I had six, seven point six rebounds. So that was a blessing to at least get on the board as your first, you know, bringing in your first game. So it was.

All right. That's just part one. I appreciate your time. Yeah. We will do part two and we'll do all the other. And we'll do the good shit. I appreciate you. Yes, sir.

Okay. All right. Thanks, Doug. See you, baby. Peace. All right. That's part one of my talk with, uh, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, we, with, with, With T-Folks, Jermaine folks.

What an interesting dude, right? Like got hit once in a big game in the leg, and football was like, nah, I'm a hoop. And then chased it to a bunch of different high schools, ended up at Crenshaw. And then at Cal, what a roster, right? Oh, my God, what roster they had. I mean, he played with Shreif Abdur Rahim for a year with Jolani Gardner with Tony Gonzalez. us amazing. And then of course all those knuckleheads at Fresno State. But wait to you hear part two. It will drop shortly. I'm Doug Gottlie. Make sure you listen to the Doug Gottlie show

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