The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - Tulsa HC Frank Haith on Talking Protests With Players, Coaching Path, Lost Season; Recruiting Expert Brandon Goble

Episode Date: June 11, 2020

In this episode, Doug is joined by Tulsa Head Coach Frank Haith who discusses how he's been talking to his players about George Floyd, the nationwide protests, how he landed at Tulsa after stops at Miami and Missouri, why he went all-in on small ball at Mizzou, and why he felt his Tulsa team was ready to make some noise in the tournament.Recruiting expert Brandon Goble discusses why top JUCO talent demand is at its highest level ever with the Coronavirus, and why he'a not sold on the G-League path for elite recruits. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hey, welcome in to the all-new, all-ball. Man, do we have a great pod for you? So excited. Frank Hath, a longtime friend, head coach of Tulsa, the Golden Hurricane, and finished in first place. in the AAC will be my guest. We'll get his thoughts on why he left Miami,

why he left Missouri, how close they were to being, they are to being special at Tulsa, what this is like. And oh yeah, by the way, he has a personal thought on, on the protests and on police brutality.

And kind of something interesting that he learned, he learned about the Tulsa race riots only after this took place. And now obviously, I think that's going to change how he, he coaches and teaches his men in the future. Also on this pod, we've got kind of a double, double hit for you. It should be really, really good. Brandon Goebel joins us.

He is, if you follow Hoops, you know he has a Twitter handle at Juco Advocate. Here's a guy who will go anywhere to find any player and give him a chance to be seen. It's pretty cool. So Brandon Goebel and Frank Hay. First, let's get to our conversation with a head coach. of the Tulsa Golden Hurricane. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the IHeart Radio app.

Let's welcome him in. He's the head coach of the Tulsa Golden Hurricane. He's Frank Hath. And Frank, there's a bunch of things I'd love to get to you, get with you on this podcast. But let me start with something that I did not know until listening to some of your remarks on other podcasts and other outlets that, you know, and maybe this is something I've probably learned is, man, everybody's life experience is so different when we see police brutality

and there's this massive, now, international movement to end it and to change so many things with how police are purporting themselves. It strikes home, I think, especially sharply with you, Sean Bell was your, what, nephew, and he was shot and killed in New York? Yes, he was my nephew, and back in 2006, you know, he was at his bachelor party at a club with him some friends and a couple of my other brothers. And he was getting married the next day. And so he was leaving the club. There was three undercover cops in the club.

And I'm assuming that one police officer, you know, just unidentified, misidentified, Sean and, you know, pulled a gun out on him. And Sean obviously acted like any normal human being because he never said who he was. And got in his car and tried to escape, he and two of his friends. And there was 50 rounds. shot into the car and he was killed, his two friends survived it.

One of his friends was shot 14 times and survived it, but no drugs, no guns, no weapons, no nothing. And it's just, and I think there's something

in my case, Doug, when it happened, I was a head coach in Miami, and this is 14 years and not really talking about it. And I think at the time, you know, I was concerned, worried about my brand navy. I don't know, afraid, not knowing what to say, how to say it, don't want to say the wrong thing, don't want to come off as a, you know, someone that's against policing, you know, just so many things,

so many factors. And as I said yesterday, I felt guilty, I felt shame, you know, as George Floyd, situation played out in front of us. And I called my brother yesterday because it was the first time I had a conversation about John and speaking on it. And I apologize. But it was a tough time for our family. And that's something that's say with me. I never even talked about it with any of my teams until this team this year. And I think the reason for doing that was to say that it could happen to anybody.

And we've all, as black men, taught our kids and have been taught how to engage, with terms of engagement with policemen, in terms of how we should act, you know, respect, ask questions, don't argue, show your hand. But in this case, in Sean's case, he didn't have that opportunity. And it was a difficult time for our family, but every time we see some of these incidents, it just brings back that pain that we, as a family, endured back in 2006. did you and look and I'm in no way in puning your level like I

we know each other for a long time a lot of people don't know about it so I'm not but did you did you know about the race riots of the 1920s in Tulsa before had been you know kind of brought to people's attention following George Floyd's death I you know what I did not and it's funny Doug not not funny But, you know, it's not taught in history books here.

And it's something that I think as I talk to people that's really a sensitive subject. And I did not know about it. And then obviously when I hear of Russell Westbrook and LeBron James doing this documentary and learning about it, that's why I decided to do something with our team. And I think as a coach, Doug, and you know this, you know, we have a calling. We have a, you know, to educate, to teach. That's what we do. We're coaches.

And I looked at this as an opportunity to continue to educate our kids. And we've had a couple of Zoom calls to talk about some things and to talk about George Floyd, but also talk about, you know, I sent them a link on, you know, the Black Wall Street. And I asked the watch it. Then the next week we talked about it. And, you know, something so historic is right here in our town. and I don't think, you know, I haven't interjected that with any of my teams here. And so we wanted to have a unity walk, not a protest, a unity walk, to show solidarity, to show that we're unified.

You know, I've got black players, white players, you know, and we have something wanted to do to honor the three tragedy, Brianna Taylor, George Floyd, Ahmad, Avery, and to have a... educational piece of it at the end, walking to Black Wall Street, the Greenwood Culture Center. And it was, we did some, you know, putting it together in terms of how far the walk would be and able to honor those three tragedies. And we started at 10 o'clock. We got together at 10 o'clock. And we started our walk at 1014.

And 1014 is George Floyd's birthday. And then as we started our walk, we got to the end of Delaware. know, Delaware because you know Tulsa, we paused and had a moment of silence for 27 seconds. Brianna's birthday was last Friday, and she turned 27, so we wanted to honor her. And then the walk from there to the Culture Center was 2.23 miles. And Ahmad Arbery's birthday is February 23rd. So that way we're able to honor all three of those. and to get there.

And then it wasn't open, but just so happened, we were able to communicate with someone in there, and they allowed us to go in. And our players were able to see a lot of the, you know, stuff that was been archived about, you know, Black Wall Street. And I think that was a great experience for us with the basketball team and something that I think that we will continue to do

in the future in terms of educating our young people. I had no idea the level of racism because I actually, I feel like Tulsa is, Tulsa's a lot, very Midwestern is, I mean, obviously you know you live there, but for people who don't, like, but I started to know the history of Tulsa and like, hey, did you know this happened?

And guys of my team had talked, who were from Oklahoma, like, did you notice I had no idea? But it is fascinating that in these moments, and now with your experience, kind of learning about it, we're all kind of realizing even the flaws to how we've educated kids, right? Like this is the bit, what are we teaching our children about history? What are we teaching children that they can use kind of in the future as a coach and as a father

and as a mentor? And you mentor even guys that are still playing in the NBA today who you recruited going back to your days awake and, of course, at Texas. What should we be teaching our children? in your minds, what are the right messages that we need to relate, especially to our players? Well, you know, I've talked to our guys about a couple things. We, we, you know, the George Floyd murder situation is it allowed us, as tragic as it was, I think we're starting to see change.

And it's given us a platform as coaches to have serious, conversations that are uncomfortable and about a lot of things that, and I think we've got to continue to have this conversation in terms of teaching and educating our young people until they become comfortable. And, but to me, we talk about, we talk about a lot of things in terms of, I wish the world was a team because, you know, and you played on a team, when you're in a locker room, a football locker room or a basketball locker room, a team, what do you? you teaching, the teaching, respect, love for each other, play for each other, care about each other,

doing things together, and that's what we need in a time of crisis. You know, our country is in a lot of pain right now, but I do, I hope I see, when I see the protesting and I see just as many white people as I see black people, out protesting. That gives us all hope. I see it not just in the United States, but all over the world. I think this has spurring a lot of different feeling than we've had in the past when we have these situations. And this is for the generation after us. And I think that's what we're doing. If everyone would receive that, you know, let's teach a little bit of love, let's teach caring for each one another. And I think the one thing we

talk about other than we talk about our guys is voting. And I know Coach Ravanaugh at Georgia Tech, his comments are so profound, so awesome, and an encouragement and taking November 3rd off. And but helping our kids understand, you know, they have a voice. They can be a part of change. They can, and it's not about voting for the presidency.

It's about local. We want to, we taught our, because we got from all of the country, to ask the deep-bar. We want to help them understand, but they need to get educated on, you know, things that you want to see happening in your communities. And, you know,

you're voting for city councilmen. You're voting for all kinds of things that are going on that you can create some change. And I think helping educate our young people to understand they have a voice is the most important thing. Frank, Frank, why did you get into coaching? You know, I had a,

Mike. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsClice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies,

and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsClyce on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little camp? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed. Correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month,

I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it

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And on my podcast, The Cliver Show, I'm bringing you. conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out.

Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, rec, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the I-Hart Radio app. podcast or wherever you get your podcast. My father, I moved down south from New York when I was a very young, five years old.

So I was raised by my grandparents, my grandmother. And my coaches were my father figures. I actually knew I wanted to coach. My first team sport I played on was a 10-year-old Mike, I think he's Mike, the Peeley Football Team, and Dr. Allen White was my football coach. he was also the athlete director at Elon College and my people that I looked up to that had the impact of my life

and growing up with my coaches and I said I want to do that I wanted to impact young people like I've been impacted by my coaches and I went through college I couldn't get through it fast enough because I thought I was going to be a high school coach and teach I don't know health and kineasianology and that was going to be my career

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Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for children and families and the Ad Council. So how did you get your first job? So you get done with Elon College, right? And then how did you take me through the steps of which you actually became a coach there? Well, when I decided to get, I didn't want to go far away from home.

My grandmother was ill, my senior year. And so I went to Elon, which is where I grew up. And as I said, the athletic director there was my first coach, Dr. Allen. White. And, you know, first year, my grandmother passed it away. And obviously, I paid from education. I didn't get a scholarship. I paid for schooling. And I had all kinds of jobs. Doug, I, you know, I worked in a mill cleaning machines. I, I did floors. I stripped floors and polished floors. I cut grass. I paid my education. And so after my freshman year, Dr. White came to me, because I was going back to my high school

and being a volunteer football and basketball assistant. He came to me and said, listen, Frank, look, I've got a proposition where you help you with school. We want you to live in the gym. And we had this closet. It was really like a closet. And we could turn into a space

where you can live and you took care of the gym. And that's how it helped me. And I still had some loans, but I saw I finish up paying for school. And then I got involved with working with Bob Burton, who's the head coach at Elon. And then I work with Jerry Steele. I worked camps. I worked seven, eight, seven straight weeks of camp with Jerry Steele.

I started working five star and prep stars. I got to know coaches do that in the summertime. But I would go out recruiting. My junior and senior year in college, I had this 74 hatchback pento. I would go recruiting in. They had to put oil in every hundred miles because it would run out of oil. But that's how I got started. And the rest kind of was history in the odds.

Dave Oden got the job at Wake Forest. Jerry Stilt said he got a higher guy. And my first college job beyond Elon was a G. at Wake Forest for one year. And I became a full-time assistant with Kevin Eastman right after that. And I popped around with a couple other places, working for some outstanding coaches. And Tony Barroni, Rick Barnes, Jerry Dunn, and Kevin Eastman.

So I've been very blessed getting into the first. and then I had an opportunity as a head coach at Miami and Missouri and now I'm I got a bunch to get I got so many players I want to first time you saw Chris Paul was when? Oh when he's a ninth grader

and he was a BEC that little sucker was so good and we were the first school to offer him and you know and actually I thought he didn't I thought he didn't make varsity until like his junior year oh no no that's well if he didn't make

varsy, I told him as a nightcare. And Tim Fuller was a assistant coach at East Forsyth High School. And Tim played at Wake Forest. So he told me about Chris. So I would see Chris. And we offered him, we offered him this 10th grade year. And at Wake Parsons. And then he ended up, you know, Skip recruited him.

Prosop of his days took a job at South Carolina during his senior year. And he got a little hairy there for, for, uh, but I think they were always going to get him because he's right there, a hometown guy. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, it's pretty interesting. I mean, how the talent, you, you mentioned, you mentioned Skip, Tony Barone, who passed away, Dave Odom, who, of course, you worked for, let me start with, with Dave Odom. What's your, if you were to say, hey, this, this is what made Dave Odom special, different,

unique, what would it be? you know, Dave was always under control. I mean, he never felt like he lost his composure during the games. He handled any type of varsity with calmness. And I think that's the one thing I took from him. You know, he never got too high. He never got too low. It's funny, you watch those moments of those back-to-back ACC championships

and he calmly walks over and sits on the bench when everybody's going crazy. But that was days. And I don't, you know, tough losses, great wins. He was the same guy. And he was always very much glass, half-full kind of guy. And kept things in perspective. And I appreciate his calmness and allow me to grow as a coach. I mean, I think Dave was, I was so blessed work for guys that really allowed me as a young coach to be involved with everything, every aspect that it is to become a head coach.

And Dave was so good to me in that regard. Your career trajectory, I felt like, took off when you got to work with Rick Barnes. Not that it hadn't been building, but the level of guys you were guys able to refer. recruit and Texas was really kind of killing it and you were known as the, you know, the guy. That's one of the things that allowed you to get that Miami job. Okay, so you're at Wake. You're from, you know, I mean, you're from New York technically, but you grew up in Carolina. How did the move to Texas take place?

You know, I got to know Rick when he was at Clemson. You know, he was, if you recall Rick's time of Clinton, he was a tough dude now. but seeing him on recruiting trails and talking to him, you know, Rick's a personable guy. We both from North Carolina. He went to Lenore Ryan. I went to Elon, you know, old Carolina conference guys. So we had a lot in common conversations.

And Rick tried to hire me. When I came back to Wake, Rick tried to hire me. I was there two or three years, and we'd start recruiting. Like I recruited Josh Howard, Barry Sangala. And I wasn't, I said, I got to say, see it through here. Coach, I couldn't do it as many. Got the Texas job a year after he lost Ricky Stoke, and I stayed. I said, but coach, if it ever opens again, I'll consider it.

And then Rob Lamere Lee and takes a Sienna job, and I went, and it was an easy transition because that was when Dave left, Wake, and was going to South Carolina. And so I went to Texas with coach, and obviously coach turned Texas around. I don't know people understand where the program was. I mean, I think they were solid, but coach took Texas to another level. And, you know, the guys were recruited then. It all started with T.J. Ford. But, you know, because it wasn't quite, quite cool yet to go to Texas being from Texas.

And T.J. made it cool. go to Texas. And he was the first one. And then obviously from Daniel Gibson to Lamarcus Aldrich, but one of my greatest recruits there was one of the nobody how they recruited. And I was PJ Tucker.

Nobody recruited PJ. And I remember bringing PJ's name to coach. And I just saw, I went to North Carolina, I saw PJ play. Because I had roots here in North Carolina. I would go back and recruit. And he played a kid.

How you probably remember his name, the Shavlik Randolph. Sure. Who was the number one player in the country, and I was at the game, and PJ had like 40 and 20, some crazy number. And 20 rebounds,

and I remember going to make the coach, this kid is something special. And, coach, like, what was this? I don't know, he's the player. I don't know where you put him at on the court.

And he's a way in Carolina or dude or even way far or any of five recruiting. Coach, I don't know. I mean, but I think he, I know he can play for us. And at first,

We signed him, and I don't know, coach never saw him, but he did call his buddy John Lipp to verify that he could play John Lips. He's the head coach of the Moranthier. Frank's right. He's a good player. So, first workout, PJ, is awful. I mean, God awful. He throws up in a trash game.

He's out of shade. And our river coach just killing me about him. They actually started killing me when he was on a visit because we went to this place and PJ PJ ordered like five lobster tails and it was so expensive

and PJ's walking those bad boys down one bite but he ended up being a pretty goal and he left after three years and obviously he was a big 12 player a year and he's still playing in the NBA

you get your first job at Miami what's that like you've been doing it for 15 years or so. Now you're the head coach and a big time program. What do you remember about your first days on the job there? First one I got here, which is pretty awesome. Leonard Hamilton flew in. He became the head coach at Florida State.

He was a former head coach in Miami. He was coached of the Wizards. He flew in and he met it. And he took me around town. gave me some advice, and I was, you know, obviously I got to know Coach Hamilton a little bit through the profession, but the fact that he took, I was, I thought it was kind of, you know, we were competitors now, we're going to be competing against each other.

But he showed me around town, explained, you know, people I needed to know in town, and, and that was unbelievable in terms of giving me some comfort level. But I felt good. about the opportunity, even though the program was struggling at the time. We went through some tough times in terms

of they were making a transition in the Big East back to the ACC. And you know, we were able to, in seven years, five years of postseason, even though, you know, one into a tournament, but five

and I think that was still an upgrade from where the program was. And Miami was a program that needed a lot. We built the practice facility is a lot of things that needed done to upgrade the program to get it to the level it needed to be to be consistently competitive in the ACC and and Jim's done a tremendous job after me taking it to another level but but it was a you know I was 38 years old and you know we we were able to get some things accomplished here in terms of the type of teams we built and that came

Jack McClinton and have a coach a kid that, and I think Joe, you did one of our games in New York. St. John who played St. John. Jackman Clinton became an unbelievable player here. I would transfer from Tiana and he's got a number in the rackers. One of the all-time

leading three-point shooters in the ACC and had a tremendous career at Miami. Yeah, no, I was, I was, before I knew I was going to have you on, I was researching and I remember, like, I saw your second game at Miami, you lost a South Carolina State. And I just wonder what, like, that.

Can you compare that to, like, a couple years later, you guys start out 12 and 0. You win a preseason tournament. You beat VCU and Providence and Mississippi State and St. John's. I mean, what's that like from early on where you're – and I don't know if you ever question yourself. Like, man, this thing going to work to all of a sudden it takes a couple years. What's it like when it hits when you're like, this will work? well you know i think when you have i've been very blessed uh we talked about some of the people i've worked

for and and and people that i could call and and rely on in terms of from their experiences and um you know george raveling was someone else that i leaned on and you know that's our kind of state which you know i open but i think you know i felt like we had some solid players that we could build on, but, you know, it was just to be inconsistent. I had good people working with me. You know, you have to have a good staff, you know, you only as good as the people around you that kept me encouraged and motivated. And, uh, and my family, you know, my wife was tremendous. And, you know, I had this opportunity. And I, I knew I was prepared because Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are

trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out. on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84's big to me not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games.

And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid. Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keer Gaines, is we have real

conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, our heart radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous reference for re. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her.

What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The coaches that I've worked for to give me the tools that I needed to be successful. And I embraced those opportunities that I had. I tell young coaches this all the time. Whoever you work for, you don't just stick with being a young African-American coach in this business. You get labeled as just a recruiter. You know, I get my first job because, you know, I was able to have the number one recruiting class in the country with Lamarckis. Aldrich and Daniel Gibson and Mike Williams and all those guys.

But you better be able to handle all the things that come along with being a head coach. You better be able to do speaking engagements. You better be able to do radio interviews. You better be able to do scheduling. How do you learn if you don't know how, right? Like the speaking stuff, you're very good at it, but you've always, I mean, we met when you were a Texas and like you've never you've never been somebody who like well that guy really needs to work in his presentation but how if you if that's not something you do naturally well how do you

work on it i think you you've got to you learn you get better by doing and i was fortunate to have coaches like when we would play on big mondays you know in the big 12 Rick Barnes would do that call we had our our conference calls on Monday so I would do his his part of conference calls on Mondays when we play on Big Monday with the radio and ask the question so you you learn you get better at it by doing and I tell young coaches you can't like you're going to you're not going to be good at it the first time you do it you know Kim English, who worked for me, the first time he did a scouting court, he struggles. Kim English is one of the, he's a stuff.

He is a star in his business. But he'll tell you the first time he did a scouting report, he struggles. And I think you learn, you get better by doing. And you can't be discouraged. You got to, it's like riding a bike, right? You fall, you get back on that bike and ride it again. You get better by continue to be persistent, continue to do it, continue to work on it, continue to practice, but you have to actually do it.

I think that's how you get better. Hi, I'm Dr. Andreas Michaelitis, chief psychologist at Noom. But what's Noom and why does Noom need a chief psychologist? Noom is a weight loss program that works with results that last because we know that changing the way you eat starts with your mind. With Noom's proven psychology-backed tools, one-on-one coaching, and flexible plan. plans that emphasize progress over perfection, you'll have the tools you need to change your relationship with food. So sign up at Noom.com now and lose the weight for good. That's N-O-O-O-M.com.

What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is close to the than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. And we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry. Looks like dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't

closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed, and they're off. Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes! Oh, that's a shame.

That mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age. and size. Learn more at NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. Visit NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. brought to you by Nidza and the Ad Council. Why the Missouri job? You know, I was here seven years and I enjoyed Miami. We still own our home in Miami, and the traction there at that time was the fan base, the rapid fan base, the energy.

the um and you know I just wanted it wanted something different and uh uh but I love what we had because I thought we had

created a program that was going to be just take off here at Miami and and Jim came in and obviously they did but we had a lot of young guys here and it was hard to me and I was really emotional telling those guys that I was leaving

and because I knew with Dequan Jones and we had Kimi Kaji sitting out We had, you know, we had so many guys, you know, Reggie Jones that were really, we're going to be really, really, really good. And I'm going to be really good. But I wanted something different. And it was tough. But, you know, three years, we won 76 games at Missouri, you know, three straight postseason.

And we lose. That first team was terrific. There was senior laden. We only had seven scholarship players, win 30 games. But we also won 46 games the next two years, and we had recruited well enough to continue some success there. But I, you know, and I enjoyed my time at Missouri. I had a great experience there because we were really good,

had a great fan base. And, you know, at that time, I just felt like I wanted something different. I wanted to try something different. I was young enough to do it. But I enjoyed my time there. And we still, like I said, we still have great friends, great relationships here in Miami because this is probably going to be our home whenever we hang it up. You mentioned that first team, of course, it was famous for not just having seven scholarship players,

but you guys, you were the first to really, really commit to true small ball. We played small when I was at Oklahoma State. We had Mason at the four. But Ricardo Bratliff as, you know, just a junkyard dog inside as your five. And the pressy boys, Kim was really your foreman, right? Who's like a point for point power forward. And Marcus Demand, how'd that come to, was it, was that just, what is the, what is the, what is it? Necessity is the root of all invention?

Or was that the plan the second you got there? It wasn't the plan. And, you know, lost powers. was an all-conference player towards ACL. I was out recruiting, and he tears his ACL. And so, you know, we really didn't have a lot of size. You know, we had a kid, Kimmy and Green was a press room that was registered a year before,

and he ended up losing middle of the year. And it was one of those things where I looked at our team, and I said, we've got to have our best players out here. And, you know, Kimmy was, and I called Kimmy in, and he'll tell you a story verbatim. I said, Kim, we're going to have to probably play you at the four. And I know you've got to vision yourself being an off guard in the NBA. But you're going to play like a guard, and you're going to play this position.

But you're smart enough and you're tough enough to be able to handle it on both ends or the floor. Obviously, they're going to have a tough time to guard you. But you're going to be good enough to do it on the defense's end. And now we'll give up some things, but here's what I want you to focus on. Just keeping your guy off the glass. Just keep your guy off the glass. And you're going to be, and with your quickness, you'll have your way. And we played Kansas twice that year, and Kim, you know, love to tell you,

is the, I mean, Jeff Whitby, who would just set him putting in a garden because we're part of the guard, Thomas Robinson, and Jeff Whitby struggled two times against him. And, but Kim was intelligent, he was in front-in. He would, you know, he was stricken him on the way on his turn. And then he had a, you know, a hard time guarder, but they ended up, you know, I give Bill credit, they ended up putting a guard on him on the other way. and to the second time we played them. But it was something, and then we just had a system where we taught spacing.

Those guys really were comfortable with sharing the ball, and that was something I thought coming from the year before. They haven't a lot of assists, but, you know, Marcus, Denman, and Kim English, Ricardo, they were scores, and even Mike Dickens, they were all scores. But getting them to understand, it doesn't matter. There's going to be some guy's night who got enough guys. can score, that we, they shared the ball like crazy, Doug. And, and still to this day, I think the numbers of that team, offensive points per possession,

is one of the, since they started doing that, one of the best in the countries, in terms of once they started doing that staff. And we were, we were late for, we had a big man that shot 72% or 70% from the floor. And then those guys were so good at, you know, when we got, space and they could play in space and they can shoot. So you really struggle figuring out how to defend them.

You know, and, you know, if you got up on them, they all can handle the ball well enough to deck it to go by you. If you stayed off them, they all could shoot it. And so, but we also had a threat inside of if we didn't make jump shot,

which allowed that to open up the perimeter game. So it was, that was a team that, you know, that was determined to, They had good leadership in Marcus and Kenny. And I really believe, when you look at that team, that team is really good. But if Mike Dixon stays with us the next year, I thought that team was going to be better.

Because we had Phil Mike, and then we had recruited, you know, Lawrence Bowers team. We had Alex Wierke. We had Javari Brown. We had Keon Bell. That team was super, super talented and had a chance to be really good. but then we lost Mike Dixon before the season got gone. If someone were, if you wanted to make a statement about how and why it ended at Missouri, right? What would, what would you want people to understand?

Oh, man, that's a tough one. I had a great, my family loves Columbia. and my daughter she dances competitively and the dance company that's C-pack is tremendous and the help her get her start my wife

loved the college town it was it was one of those things Doug that you know I just I'll be honest with you you know I had you know

I was told at that time that You know, I was getting extension and then it didn't happen. And, and you know, for a professional standpoint, um, Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying,

and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make

the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keer Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we

are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth

or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood,

pressure, purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. What's up guys?

This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Clivert Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game.

This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, A, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office,

Blue, 42. Dude. Hey, Red, Mom, I want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Nervous. You got to look out for your family.

You got to do with speciality families. And I didn't feel good about that situation because of that. You know, and there's nothing, I didn't take anything personal. I just felt like I had to do something I had to do what was best for my family and at that point in time I felt we were successful and we were going to continue to be successful

and but but not I wasn't confident that they had enough confidence in me and supporting me to continue to be their head coach and that's just being honest and but, you know, like I said, there's no hard films because I love Missouri.

I still root for Conzo to do well there. I have a lot of passion for that university and what it stands for. And, but that was a tough decision for me to make at that time. But, you know, obviously, the only thing was on my mind was doing what was best for me and my family. You get to Tulsa, and obviously anybody who knows anything about basketball, Tulsa went through, has had some amazing coaches, right? I mean, they had a run there, you know, where you had Tubby, Steve Robinson, Bill Self, Buzz Peterson, right? Like, where you're like, man, just kind of lining up coach after coach.

And, you know, you can go back, obviously, to the early mid-80s when they had Nolan as their head coach. Great history of being competitive. But there was some dormant years. Of course, you replaced Danny Manning who had taken to the NCAA tournament. What did you, when you first got to Tulsa, a lot of people thought, He's going to be there for a year or two, then he's going to move on. That's what everybody does at Tulsa. When you first got boots on the ground in Tulsa, what do you think?

Yeah, I was excited about, you know, obviously when you take a new job, you're excited about another start. And, you know, I knew about the tradition of the program, but I knew we were going to be, we were going to have a different challenge on our hand, Doug, because we were going to take on a, you know, a job that was going to be joining a conference at a different level, you know, the American conference. was a lot different in conference USA and playing the competition that we were playing. I mean, UCon had just won a national championship two years prior, and we were joining a conference with the national champion in it. So, obviously, I think you look at my career, I've had jobs where we were taking over jobs.

You know, when I came to Miami, we were just joining the ACC. When I went to Missouri, we were only in the Big 12. we had and we went to the SEC and, you know, obviously the move there, Comptuesset was a huge jump. It was a different jump than those other jumps.

But I was excited about the opportunity. We had some really good players in our program. I mean, James Woodard and Shaquille Harrison were really good players. And those guys that back court, when you got a good guard, you know this, you're a really good guard on the team. And, you know, when you got good guards, you got a chance.

And so I felt like we had a chance, and obviously we were able to get back to the tournament my second year. And Shaquille Harrison is still playing the NBA. And there's a guy who's a two-star recruit that's playing the NBA. And Danny did a good job here. And I'd say Doug Wojik, who recruited a lot of those players too. There was some good solid players here. And we were a senior-laden team, what junior-lating team, and we were able to, you know, since we've been in a lot of,

in this league, we've won the most games in this league. I don't know that people know that behind Cincinnati and Houston. And we won more games than Memphis and Temple and other traditional rich basketball clubs in this league.

But I was excited for the challenge of, you know, taking over a team that's got some great tradition and joining a league that had some really good basketball, good coaches. And I looked at it as a great opportunity to continue to grow

and I was excited about and now we had Wichita State and I think this it's been a great transition for them in this league and helping our league and I think our league has perceived to be one of the better leagues in the country.

What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. No one else grows in the forest? Our imagination. Our sense of wonder. And our family bonds grow too. because when we disconnect from this and connect with this we reconnect with each other.

The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them.

You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms, outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide through this fascinating world.

Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms, outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles.

They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Then you finally get it right, right? You get to your kind of the sweet spot where this year you're in first place to the league

and now you can't go An NCAA tournament appearance was pretty much a definite, right? And then it gets it gets cancer. Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, the only, I mean, I, you know, we can, it was a weird year.

I can't, I couldn't see you not getting in, you know, you beat Houston. You guys were playing with going. Yeah. I mean, and you would have had an opportunity, you would have had an opportunity had the conference tournament been played to beat the,

teams the second time, which would have, it would have been end of, end of discussion, right? But you'd be, you know, it's not, you had road wins as well, wasn't just that you'd won home games. I mean, your team had gotten better as the year went on. I mean, you check kind of all the boxes for me, what it looks and feels like an NCAA tournament team, you win your league. What's that, what has it been like, though, for, um, for kind of the dormancy of three months after really having your team rolling and expecting to get an NCAA

tournament berth? It's tough, you know, and it's funny. We were all at the tournament, a conference tournament, and you went the first round by. You're starting to see the buzz with the cancellations of tournaments. And we got that word. We had to relay that to our team. I mean, we had two seniors that were terrific, terrific student athletes. And Mark Zibano, first team, All-Lieger, and Lawson Corita.

And the conversation and the look on their face of emotion was tough. It was tough. And then we drove to the tournament. And that drive back was tough. And then going in the locker room and visiting with those guys when we got back. I mean, just the finite of that was just incredible. I mean, how do you end the season? I've never, obviously nobody has ended the season just like that.

and we had a team that I think the way we played, Doug, you know, you establish yourself as a coach and you talked about how we played at Missouri and you do different things but the way that team played defense, I thought it was a chance to really be a problem for people in postseason play.

And I felt like, and we were a confident team. And, you know, when you get your team to play to a level where they believe in what they're doing, you got rotations, You got roles defined and everybody's buying in. Now you feel good about you got something special because that's all, it's hard to get to that point, right? You know, when you build your team throughout the year, when you finally feel like you at that point where everybody understands their role, they embrace it.

They understand it and embrace it. You know, you've got confidence in how you're playing. You know how you want to play. day, I mean, in terms of your, your execution. And I felt like it was, it was, it was a tough time. And, but, you know, it was the right call, you know, in terms of what was going on in our country. And I think that, whereas I was disappointed and hurt for our seniors and our program, but it was the right call. Okay.

Okay, now you have as much as, you know, you lose Zibon, who's a, he was a monster, right? Just an absolute monster, 6, 8, 235, really, really talented kid. But most of your team is back next year. How have you, like, how challenging has it been to re-recruit them, get your new guys kept? Like, what has this been like for you? It's such a, you know, different, right?

Because we, you know, we had to, we signed three guys, or four guys is spraying without even them visiting. And so that's been tough, you know, and keep your guys engaged and, you know, when, you know, there's a moment of nothing, right? No gym, no, you can't be anywhere, but, you know, isolated. And but continue to visit with those guys are extremely important. And at the level where we're at, you know, where this, you know,

transfer epidemic is, become something that's prevalent. And, but I will tell you that we, you know, we've done a really good job of spending time with our players, talking with them, you know, and with the Zoom, for the technology we have today, Zoom calls, and we're able to have a really good recruiting class, too. I'm excited about that we'll give us some pieces. Missing Ibonne was going to be tough because he's a first team all-league. And even Lawson, too, although Lawson's numbers don't really say what his value was to our team,

and he's tremendous in the locker room, but also execution. And you understand this, Doug. Execution-wise, he's unbelievable on both ends of the floor. And those things don't show up in his stat. Like, he was always in the right place in our match-up zone. He was always where he needed to be in terms of rotating, taking a charge, or, you know, in terms of the rules in our zone. And then on offense, in terms of moving, ball movement,

what about having that guy and you or this guy? Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaders to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack.

So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keer Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we, are in possession of the thing, and we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses.

Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app Search Learn the Hardway and listen now.

What's up guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, A, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What?

Time out. Quarterback on office blue. 42. Hey, Ray, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

One guy on your team that moved the ball. And you could absolutely count on when, you know, when you need a ball move and that ball gets, you know, sticking, no Velcro. You want that ball start sticking. You want that one guy when he got it. He was going to reverse it. And can knock down.

open shot when he had it. But that's what Lawson brought to this team. So we'll miss those two guys, but we had two guys sitting out really good, two Oklahoma kids. Curtis Haywood, the transfer from Georgia Tech, and Akeeshaw Nirmary Sensen, they transfer with Mark and saw. So I think a perimeter game will be really, really good. You know, we've got, we have to see what we, we will have to be, our post position will be have to manned by three different guys rotating in there.

We won't get Martin's numbers by any one person, but hopefully collectively we'll be able to get something. But I do like what we will get from our perimeters in terms of what Kishan and Kurtzpring, and then Brando Rochelle, who's an all-league performer coming back. So I think we have a chance to be pretty good, but, you know, Tom will tell. And I said this about last year's team will pick 10. So, you know, Tom will tell, you know, in terms of how we develop and how we come together. throughout the season. Last thing, you have a great relationship and a good affinity for Rick Barnes.

I didn't like him when we played against him because I didn't know he was so sarcastic. Right? I didn't. I was a kid. I had no idea. And, I mean, I'd known him for a long time, sort of through Larry Shiat, who recruited the West Coast back when they were Providence. And I like Coach Shy, but I just didn't get, and then I got to know Rick Barnes was like,

he's the best. He's an unbelievable dude. Give somebody one story like this, here's Rick Barnes in a nutshell. Go. Oh my God. I mean, where? I mean, when do I start?

This guy was like, I mean, I tell you the one of my favorite stories about Rick. We, we're Final Four. 2003, we're in a Final Four.

We're playing Syracuse and Rick is in the locker room and I would always sit with him and joke with him and talk to him and I'm serious I mean I kind of in and out go get a bottle of water and I walk back in the locker room and the sucker's dead dead to the bone sleep he's out of it and uh I don't bother him I was like man I mean I can almost hear him snore I mean he was so he was he was he was he was stoned out of it and all of a sudden Rick Barnes, when the guys walk back in, he could turn it right on like a light switch. And that was

that guy's so impressive. And, you know, he, you know, the one thing that I learned from coach is adaptability. And, you know, when we got T.J. Ford, you know, his Constantine, they were so motion-oriented

and ball movement, you know, cutting, and they had those two big physical guys or blocker screeners. And then when we got T.J. Ford, he was, you know, You put that ball in his hand, you let him play. So to me, being able to adjust to your personnel, to me, that's coaching. That's what I learn from coach. You know, having the trust in yourself and not being fearful to change.

And he was so good at that. And I love him for giving me that quality. You know, when I look at my career as a head coach, I haven't been afraid to change and to learn. And, you know, every year you're learning. You get better, you get worse. You don't stay the same. And he's one of those guys that is always looking at new ways to get some things done.

And, you know, I think his defense has been pretty stable. But although I think he's changed that a little bit in terms of his aggressiveness on the ball, and that's kind of coming on a little bit. But he's a special man. I mean, I love him. He's, you know, he's one of my best friends, and I love him for what he's done for me and my family and rely on him. And, you know, you've been around,

and the guys never had a dull moment. I mean, the guy's, he's full of fun, and my wife absolutely loves Rick, and he's just so joyful. And he's just a great person. You know, he goes out of his way to do things for you. But he still has an insurance policy on my son that he paid and that he started.

I mean, and I work for him. I don't know, what, 16 years ago, 17 years ago, and we took it over, but he started it. And he's just a good human being and loves people. Yeah, I, I, I, I, where we started is kind of where we ended, right? Because this is why basketball guys, I think, struggle so much, and coaches struggle so much with the idea of racism. Because what you said, like, look, you got to learn, you got to evolve, you got to adjust. And if you can't learn, evolve, and adjust to the changing times and how views have change now people have changed how you need to treat them, then you're going to be a dinosaur

and you're going to be left behind. The same is true in life as it is in sports. Is that fair? That's absolutely fair. And that's a great segue to what we just talked about. That's awesome. But that's exactly the way life is and what you just said. And if you don't, if you're not willing to change and adapt, you'll become stale and you, and you recharge your development. And that's, that's, that's life. And I, and I, that's awesome, Doug. I appreciate you for saying that. Well, listen, I appreciate you coming on with us. You've always been kind to me. You always have an unbelievable staff. I can't believe you have Jerry Wayne. We haven't told any Jerry Wayne write stories. Those will probably remain off air. But in the meantime, take care of your family

and your team. Can't wait to see you guys back in the Reynolds Sutter next year. And thanks for joining me. God bless you, Doug. Thank you. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern, noon Pacific. Let me go from Frank Hath to Brandon Gobble. Now, we're in this kind of really odd new world, right? Where my dad for years had Branch West basketball and he was like a placement service. And actually for years he did it for free where he would have his players and would find

the right fit. And his belief was, you know, anybody wants to play college basketball is good enough. To start in their high school, we can find a place for you to play if you have grades. whether you play or not, you just make the team. There's so many different levels to it, or at least before COVID-19 and quarantine and the economy, there weren't a lot of levels to it. But then he basically ran a placement service.

And, you know, you'd pay him to come evaluate your kid. Then he put together a highlight tape. And they'd say, hey, look, if I get you to this level, this is the level I think your kid can play at, you pay me X, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Brandon does this, you know, goodness of his heart, unbelievable service to the kids. They just loves ball. And they go around the country around the world.

They put on camps and they try and discover kids. And then, you know, bring the tapes back and send them out to, you know, put it on Twitter and just try and help. It's about the players. You can follow them on Instagram. And of course, you can follow them on Twitter as well. At Juco Advocate. He's become a good friend. and I think this is the perfect day to have him on

as Brandon Goebel joins us here in the All Ball podcast. Brain, let me start with this. This is just a weird year. There's no Hutch. Right. So anybody who knows anything about Juko basketball, you know, like that's what team needs a guy late in a year.

And Hutch is different now and Jucco basketball is different now than it's ever been. How different from your perspective is a guy who's covered this for years. You really know players in recruiting and is the, the spring recruiting, non-recruiting, period? So it was definitely interesting to see everything kind of fell apart really fast. There was a lot of people that were just kind of

still doing their normal recruiting stuff, saying, hey, we're going to wait until Hutch. You know, we're not going to really hit some of the conference tournaments and things. Like, Hutch is going to be fine. I'm sure everything's going to be fine. I was getting ready to go to Paris and run a camp over there and stuff. And then all of a sudden everything just, like, collapsed.

And so now all the... a sudden these coaches are going, we have these scholarships sitting here that we haven't done anything with. We haven't really dug in all that deep. We were waiting for Hutch and now what do we do? And so all of a sudden, synergy, right? Synergy was spiking. Like, their views on junior college stuff, what was going up anyways in January and February is people were kind of preparing. But their usage for junior college film just went through the, I mean, it's the most it's ever been by leaps and bounce. And so people were suddenly hammering tape and just trying to figure it all out and, you know,

making a million phone calls. And it's just, it was a little bit chaotic, honestly. Guys were getting offers from places that you're like, oh, man, like that's, you know, that's too high or, you know, that doesn't make any sense. Or, you know, it was just, I think guys didn't know what to do. And so there was a little bit of a panic that set in. And it's chilled out some since then, but it was, it was wild for a lot. a little bit.

Who's been the most impressive, like, in terms of some of their late gets that you've noticed? Yeah, I think Kansas State actually did a really good job with getting Rudy Williams. And I know that saying, like, a high major and stuff is kind of odd in the sense that, like, they should be able to get just about anybody that they want. But that was a really important one. Point guards are really difficult to kind of lock down these days in junior college. There's just not a lot of... point cards.

Right, and they lost their point guard to transfer, too. I mean, you know, so that's a, you cannot play without a point guard. And Rudy was probably arguably the best point guard in the class. And to get him late like that with all of the wild stuff going on, I think that was, I think that was a huge move because a lot of the other big guys signed early. You know, I think BYU grabbing, getting in George late was like an all-year process for them. And they were able to kind of take advantage of the fact that they were able to sneak. weekend a visit right at the last second before everything went crazy when he went and visited during

the Gonzaga weekend. That was a big one for that too. What happens with the Oklahoma State Recre? With Cade Cunningham, what do you think happens? Oh, man. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Cade just sticks it out for you. I think he knows that regardless of postseason or not, you know, what he does is season can still mean a lot.

And there's just so many unknown weird things going on right now, anybody making any sort of drastic decision is taking a big risk. Here's what I've been told. I've been told the G League is telling these kids, hey, there's not going to be a college basketball season. So you're hanging around for nothing. You know, then the argument against the G League has been, you know, why would you want to play, even if you're making money, play meaningless games. And so the G League in turn for Cade Cunningham says like, yeah, our games don't necessarily

mean anything, but neither that it's Oklahoma State, you can't play for a conference tournament and he can't play in the NCAA tournament. at least you can make some money, and I've been told he was offered a crazy amount of money back in December and January, and that amount might even go up. At the end of the day, if the money makes sense for him or something, I mean, I guess you can never really knock a guy on that, but I think there's a huge misconception about out there of what the G League is

and what the G League looks like when you play in it. I mean, these are a bunch of guys that, all intents and purposes, most of them should be in the NBA, but there's just not enough spots. There's players that at any given moment could contribute. to a team. So now you're in this different style of basketball that's that's somewhat difficult to evaluate, especially if you're a new guy that's coming in there. But if you go to a place like Oklahoma Stadium for a year and you don't play in the conference tournament, you don't play in the NCAA

tournament, but you have an entire season of your non-conference in Big 12 basketball. I mean, do you league is fine and all, but I just, I feel like there's a lot to be made for him if he takes that chance and goes to college for a year. I told it. Listen, I agree. Like, what do you mean? You're missing out on one or two big 12 tournament games, maybe an NCAA tournament game or two, you know, like maybe three. Like, let's not act like they would be the best team in the country. They'd have a chance to be really good.

And obviously, it sucks. But your brother's there. You get a chance to play for your brother for a year. You get a chance to be part of a team. In your mind, I know Jailing Green is going to the G League. If you were going to take a kid in the end of those two, who would you take? I'm probably taking Cunningham. What?

I just think, I think at the end of the day, what he does, for me, is an easier translation. So I got to watch him a little bit last summer. And I just thought that what he does is going to translate up a lot easier. I agree. I think he's a better basketball player. I think Jalen Green is a freak athlete who will make more jaw-dropping plays that look good. you know, on social media and on highlights, but Cade Cunningham really, really knows how to play basketball.

And he can play multiple positions. Like he checks so many boxes for what you need, not to be a good player, but be a great player in the NBA. Green has this level of burst that few guys have, but there's some other kind of holes. He's becoming a better shooter, but he's got to be a better shooter. And, you know, I don't, whereas I don't know if, like, Cade doesn't have to go to a team and be the best player immediately

and he can still be really, really effective. whereas it feels like Jalen Green's only kind of played in a style in which he's, give me the ball, I'm going to just go get a bucket, you know? Right. And when you look at some of, you know, even big names in the NBA, not the biggest names, right? Like we're not talking about LeBron's and Kevin Durant and things like that that are just freak shows.

But when you look at a lot of the guys in the NBA guys that are successful, there's not a ton of them that do something that just is, you know, out of this stratosphere athletically or something like that. There's a lot of really good basketball players. And I think if you're a really good basketball player like Cade, like you said, that's going to translate faster. Now, Green could get there, you know, if he continues to improve develop, and then all of a sudden you add that to the fact that he is a freak athlete.

But right away, right off the bat, I'm probably taking Cade just because I know I'm getting a better basketball player right away. You know what I love about your site? By the way, the site is Verbal Commits.com. What I love about your site is it breaks it down through class and guys you're offering. and I think the whole thing's fascinating. But we did start to talk about the G-League thing. And my deal is with the G-League, like, in theory, it should be great, right? You take a handful of the kids that don't really want to go to college that are really good enough.

But the problem is, what we always see is now is going to be 100 kids that think they're one of the five kids that can go, right? And do they lock in on their – and, oh, yeah, by the way, like, what do you do? For example, UCLA? like UCLA, that sucks. You know, the second that staff got the job, they had one focus. You got Dacia Nix, right, who's in Vegas. Like, that's the guy we need to go get.

And they move mountains to do everything. They get him to commit. They get him to sign. He's in. And then late in the game, the G League comes in and says, well, what if we paid you $250,000? Now, you know, look, they still have Taiga, so they'll be okay.

how do you think this G-League thing affects, not just what you do, but the overall landscape of college basketball recruiting? You know, I think it's something that is going to be a little chaotic to start with, and we'll probably find its place, much like when we were drafting straight out of high school. There were guys that got drafted, and they made their money, you know, so you can't really blame them for that.

They got drafted, but they flamed out. And people kind of went back. and forth on, you know, taking school guys, or maybe they should be taking more high school guys, and I kind of found its level before they shut that all down. And I think that's probably what's going to end up happening with the G League, because at the end of the day, if you've got, you know, 30, 40, 50 kids, whatever it ends up being, that decide to go straight to the G League, and only a few of them pan out, which is what is going to happen.

People are kind of probably starting rethinking that pretty quick. You know, it's, I don't, I don't love the fact that the NBA is, using, you know, the D-League and using some of the things like they even do, some of their stuff overseas, like with the African League that they're putting together. And all of a sudden, like, professional basketball is looking like the process rather than the reward. You know, and I think there's so many of these guys that are going to the G-League that still quite a bit for the process and still have a lot to develop. But they're trying to jump straight to the reward right away.

Yes. Look, and that's always been the problem. Like, and even the success stories, like this is where I'm different than other people. Dwight Howard's a success story, right? He goes, gets drafted in the NBA draft. He's probably a Hall of Fame. But you look at like, did Dwight Howard actually live up to his potential? And I would tell you no.

And I think that the things that he struggled with socially, like learning to be around others. And like there's an arrested development there. His personality, he just, I mean, I, I guess people always say, well, he's a weird cat. And maybe he was a weird cat before, and maybe he would have been a weird cat if he went to college. But there is something disarming about being around only people your age and having to live in dorms and play for a coach and play for a team.

Whereas, you know, when you play in professional basketball right away and you're an 18-year-old kid, like you're thrown into an adult world, there's a lot of things personally. And then his game itself, like he never really developed a post game. He never really developed a face-up game. And what happens is kind of what you show up and arrive as you can become a better version of. But there's just some rounding out. Even LeBron has no idea, has never had any idea how to play without the basketball, ever.

And I think that stuff would help. And I like, it's one of those questions where Jordan, to me, is the greatest of all time. But I think one of the things that really helped him. and he wouldn't have, people make it out like he was a scrub at a high school. Like he was a McDonald's All-American set the all-time scoring record in the McDonald's game. But I do think that playing for Dean Smith, rounding him out as a player, and then you combine it with otherworldly athleticism and talent, and he was able to become, you know, the all-time great.

I just think there's so much missing. And we downplay it, but it does work. It doesn't mean that the other way won't work and doesn't provide opportunity. but no one who can really play has gone to college and all of a sudden, like, well, they can't actually play and the college ruined them. College doesn't ruin you. It simply promotes you and rounds you out for the most part. And I get the thing with, you know, well, if I go to college and I heard and I miss the

opportunity for sure, I mean, there's a risk in anything that you do. You go to the G league for, you know, $75 grand and get hurt like it's over there, too. You know, I'm a believer in the best development system in the world before you're 18 is probably somewhere over in Europe. but once you turn 18, the best development system in the world is in college in America. And the G League does not, is not set up, is not designed to provide that. It's not, like we used to call it the D League, the developmental league. Not a lot of developing that goes on in that league.

It's right or die like try and survive. And if somebody see something that they need, then you get your shot in the NBA. And if you stay awesome, right? Like it was perfect for a guy like Juan Tascano Anderson that went to Marquette, still needed to develop a lot in his game, goes and plays pro, down in Mexico, a shot in the G League,

and then boom, takes off and heads to the Warriors. But, like, there was a lot of work that went in between that Warriors contract. And even when he was playing at Marquette, and he was a top,

what, 150 kid? And so it wasn't just this, like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to go straight to the G League. And they're doing it with international guys, too. You know, there's an Indian player that is phenomenal,

that's playing down in the Global Academy, and his government is like, no, he's just going to go straight to duty. That's not what this is for, right? Yeah. And I think, and look, and I do think that the NCAA, they hurt themselves by making it harder for international players than it should be easier, right? There's, you know, Andes Cantor.

Like, yeah, Ennis Cantor, like, yeah, Ennis Cantor was a pro when he played in Turkey. I got it. Everyone knew he wasn't going to play in college if they actually looked. They looked and nothing. But why? Like, if he wants to play in college, great. You know?

Who can't, like, okay, so you got paid back home. I don't care. Is he getting paid here? You know, as long as you're not getting paid to come here, like, I'm good. It's fine by me. I do think that college basketball hurts itself. Give me the best tape that somebody sent you of a guy that you didn't, you maybe hadn't heard of or hadn't seen, and somebody sends you a tape.

And this can be any time during your time doing this. And you were like, holy shit. What did I just see? This kid can really play. Doesn't have to be not now. It can be any time. You know, what's interesting is the international stuff is always one of those weird places where now you're doing completely out of context. Right.

You have no idea who they're playing against, right? You don't. I've seen international tapes people sent to me like, hey, we signed this international kid. What do you think? I'm like, I don't know who he's playing against, right? Because sometimes the game, it's like, is this played at half speed? Right. Are these, is this a beer league?

Or are these kids 15? or 16, and he's 18 or 19, right? Okay, but go ahead with the international stuff. So the thing that really just surprised me about this one, this was a kid that was about to get ready to play U-18 Division C. Right? So we're down the line here in FBA, and somebody sent me some tape on a kid named Owen Nelson

who played junior college this year for Otero. And huge, right? He's 6-9, 6-10, somewhere in there. He's at the time he's probably 2-25. something like that, and this kid is running like a deer. He's about seethru. He's so white being from Ireland with this mop of red hair on his head. And I'm just like, this doesn't make any sense.

Like, if this kid was in America, right now, like, he'd be blowing the hell up because he's massive, and he's athletic, and he can catch and all this kind of stuff. And so somebody sent me this tape on this kid, and I was like, all right, I guess I'm diving into the FBA Division C and watched Ireland play. God, I don't even know. like some of these places like Micronesia,

and these tiny little countries and stuff. And sure enough, I mean, that kid just took off. He's going to Wyoming this year after one year in junior college. And it was eye-opening because that was three years ago, I think, that I first saw him and really,

really exposed me to the fact that there are players everywhere. And I've seen better days, right? I've seen better players, obviously. But that was one that was just shocking roads. man, it doesn't matter where you're from. Like, you can. I remember Adidas Nations, they used to have, and I don't know if they used to have it.

I remember like the first year, and I was doing stuff with the Dias at the time. They had me come down to talk to the kids, and I think we're in New Orleans. And at the, the, the, then it was the Hornets facility, whatever. And it was just hot as can be. I go in this gym, and I'm watching Team Africa play. And one guy looked different than everybody else.

I was like, who's that dude? they're like, Serge Ibaka. And I was like, there's your player. Like, well, there's this guy, that guy's like, no, that guy's your player. And I was just, the way he moved, the way he ran,

the way he even shot the basketball at that time. It was before he's the shooter that he is now. You could just kind of tell. Those things are, but you're right. There's guys everywhere is a, is a great one. Okay.

How can people get, how can people follow you? I gave away Twitter. I gave away verbal commits.com. Anywhere else we can get all your information? Yeah, I mean, really on Twitter is kind of our main communication source. That's where you'll see a lot of the stuff that we do when we go overseas. We go to Africa, the Caribbean, all that kind of stuff, run camps over there,

help bring kids over to college. We brought 22 kids over in the last two and a half years. And we're playing in schools now. and then we do the live period podcast as well that's been fun we just kind of started that during the during the rona and sat down and said hey you know what let's do this and uh and it's it's been great it's been fun so it's allowing us to kind of get our message out there a little bit more and work on some different stuff and uh and you know just kind of find new things to get in well the best thing is you know you get to learn some of these kids stories and meet them

and you just you end up want to cheer for them it's a it's a cool it's a cool thing thing that you do. At Juco Advocate, at Juco Advocate is on Twitter. Brandon, great catching up. We'll do so again in the very near future, and thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate you, my friend. Be good. All right. That's it for All Ball. You can listen to the Doug Gottlieb show daily, 3 to 6 Eastern,

12-3 Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio app on SiriusXM. We're now on the Dan Patrick Channel, 203 and 217, Sirius XM. In the meantime, feel free to questions on the Instagram page at Gottlieb Show or the Twitter handle at Gottlieb show. Hope do you appreciate listening to it? Thanks so much. I'm Doug Gottlieb.

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