The Herd with Colin Cowherd - All Ball - UMBC Head Coach Ryan Odom on All-Time #16 Seed Over #1 UVA Take Down, Program Building

Episode Date: March 10, 2021

In this episode, Doug is joined by UMBC Head Coach Ryan Odom who discusses his basketball journey that led him from son of Wake and South Carolina head coach Dave Odom, to college assistant, to taking over UMBC and authoring the greatest NCAA Tourney upset by taking down #1 UVA as a #16 seed in 2018. He also discusses the flip side of getting upset in his conference tournament as a heavy favorite this year. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Literally on an interstate between Asheville, North Carolina and Harris, Virginia. And what you're going to hear over the next hour or so is a podcast with Ryan Odom. Now, Ryan and I know each other a little bit. My brother and Ryan are good friends. But if you're listening to this and you're a fan and you're like, boy, they really seem like they know each other. Like it's called in Hebrew, it's Mishbukka, which is like family, my family by choice. in basketball, it totally makes sense if you're a hoop guy, right? His dad was a coach, high school coach became a college assistant, became big-time college head coach.

And my dad was a high school coach, became a college assistant, a college assistant, then an AAU coach, whatever. It's basketball family. And there's some interesting ties that bind there. And ultimately, obviously, what we led up to is the greatest upset in the history of college basketball, and you're going to be, I think, fascinated by it. But it's his own personal journey.

And remarkably, like, I set this up to my brother, Greg, who does deserve producing credit. And, you know, I wanted to do it right now as we get into championship week into the NCAA tournament. and it's just timely and perfect and enjoyable. And Virginia is still the defending national champion as well. But when we set it up, he was the one seed. And I was like, all right, well, you know, they're going to win their tournament.

And then we'll get them. And it's like, so they just, maybe were upset by the eight seat. And then it became a bit more timely, more perfect. And I thought to myself, you know, I can love it. You know, it's just too emotional. It's too hard. You know, these coaches, they lose a game. They bury themselves.

in a bunker for a month and good luck getting him out of it. And I texted Ryan the day after they lost, maybe two days. Like, hey, man, if you know what? He's like, no, we're doing it. How about we do it Monday? And then Monday didn't work and now Tuesday. So this is dropping on a Wednesday of Championship Week. And I know you will enjoy this.

It's impossible not to because he's just a delightful being. I do have to promote the fact that one, there are a litany of other all-ball podcasts that are amazing. Mason from Tremaine Davis, who was awarded the state at three and just recently was the ceremonial captain at Super Bowl. There's a two-party with Jay Billis. You can dig through and find just, you know, where you searched out this podcast. There's Scott Brooks podcast.

There's Nate Oates podcast. I mean, there's so many good ones. And it's interesting. I kind of started doing this as a bit of a bit of. of a passion project. I just like catching up with friends or people that I'm fascinated by in the sport that I love. There's also a T.J. Housmanzano one about his life background, which is not really basketball, but his personal story is so good.

It's so interesting, you know, selling drugs in Oklahoma City as a teenager into making it to the NFL and becoming a pro bowler. Kind of cool. Like, we got them all in here. Just download the catalog. Also, you can listen to the Doug album show Daily, 3 to 60, Eastern, 12. healthy Pacific. But this thing is growing leaps and bounds. And guys like Ryan are the reason why. They just, they have time. They tell their story to share with you. Dan Munson's podcast. Dan, of course, son of Don, another coach's son, was the head coach of Gonzaga when they made

that initial Elite 8 run. That was like a month ago. You could download that. That's a two-parter. And every bit of it is good. And every, the honesty in it is amazing. Amazing. you know, sometimes you get a guy like, I know there's more to the story. And most of the guys that we've had, they've just talked and told their story. It's an organic conversation. We try and do that on the radio, obviously. There's some more time constraints and there's some other, there's some other parts to it. I should also point out the Andrew Bogot, two-parter.

There's some language issues sometimes, not that he doesn't speak English in terms of our cursing a little bit, a little bit more rife, a little bit more real than some of the others. So download those are great. Let's have Doug Outley Show 3 to 6 Eastern Fox Sports Radio, I Heart Radio app. I've lived this basketball journey now for, I think 83 was the first time I remember, right? And we talked about that in the pot. I remember Final Four's. I've gone to Final Fours. I didn't play in a Final Four.

I wish I did. People always like, you play with Big Catcher. Like, nah, that was not me. No, you play with Tony Allen. No, that was John Lucas. We lost the lead eight. So maybe I'll do a pod next week on the NCAA tournament. My memories of playing in it.

I think I've done some of that. But the 16 one, you know, it had never happened before. And statistics will tell you that ultimately it was going to happen. But logic to me you said might not ever happen because low major is like a bad word that's used traditionally in recruiting and in coaching and then low major because somehow it just feels different than mid major. But the low majors, the true one bid leagues, those are being rated by the mid and high majors. your career to kid, you think he's a little bit better of mid-major minus, maybe even a mid-major or mid-major plus. And you get him and he's so good that everybody takes notice.

And so an AAU coach or an assistant coach in college somehow finds a way to the family, to the connector, and they transfer up, right? I mean, Cleveland State's program was raided. San Jose State has been raided. You go across the country and there's lots of, of these kids like, I mean, look at Division III programs. They're losing players to Division I programs. So I always, I thought recently that because guys are transferring up from the lower levels,

I'm going to sure what happened. Now, it's important to point out that Virginia did have a major injury to Diandre Hunter. And that changed, and not just in terms of their go-to guy, but also he allowed them to play smaller. and more four out one in. But that didn't, if you go back and watch that game, didn't feel that much like an upset. Just didn't. And it was because it was an ass kick by UMBC.

Got out of hand in the end. Anyway, Ryan Odom is son of the great coach and kind of legendary coach right in college basketball. His personal story has been told many times over, and he's come out the other side. He had a great year that won the league this year at UMBC, but obviously fell short the conference tournament. If you're known for one thing and known for pulling off,

arguably the greatest subset of the history of college basketball, they didn't a bad thing. There's a lot more to them. I think you enjoy this conversation. Here's the head coach of Maryland Baltimore County, Rino. College basketball is crazy, right, obviously, and I want to get to what happened most recently and then what you're probably most known for. But I want to start, like when you were born, we're both sons of coaches.

But I think it was right in the window of your dad going from being a high school coach to a college assistant. Is that accurate? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I was born in 74. And my father was the head coach at Durham High School. and you know back then john lucas was playing at arrival i school there was all kinds of good players

around there got a marshal ashford played for him who ended up going on to virginia tech to be a really good guard but um yeah he he uh he started in in goalsborough that's where he was born and raised and so his father was a car dealer and so his dad was a car dealer his dad was a car dealer He had the car dealership in Goldsboro, maybe the Cadillac. I have no idea what it was. But he would work there every summer. And so the thought was, hey, he's going to take it over one day. That's just going to be what happens.

And so he went to play basketball for a guy named Jerry Steele at High Point, or excuse me, Guilford. He'll kill me in fact for saying High Point. He had Guildford College. And, you know, Jerry Steele is a great player. Royce Forest, one of the best big guys in the 60s, back when they went to the final four and played the Billy Packer in that group. And they were very close in age.

So Jerry had just graduated from Wake. Dad was just coming into Guilford. And so that was kind of his first connection into the basketball world was through Jerry Steele. Jerry played for Budz McKinney. And, you know, he mentored dad. Dad played football as well. he played basketball, he played baseball, all at Guilford, you know, in college, and just love sports.

So he ends up after he graduated from college going home to Goldsboro and coaches at his high school. He graduated from Goldsboro High School. There a couple of years, my brother Lane, who you know is born there at the time in Goldsboro, and then move on to, he moves on, gets off for the Durham High job. That's where I'm born in 74. And so he was very fortunate in that he got to know at that point, Vic Boobus was the head coach of Duke. Chuck Daly was an assistant.

Cuby Brown was an assistant. I mean, it was the who's who on that staff, you know, at that point. And so he would go over there, you know, almost daily to watch the practices and do all that. And so his connection and initial entree into college basketball was through, they introduced him to Garth. And so he would take, he was kind of the first southern guy to go up to five-star basketball camp. And he literally would drive the bus up and all the local players in North Carolina would go up there with him and, you know, spend a week or two and go to the camp. And so he became obviously really close with, you know, all the coaching characters of that time, the Tinos and, you know, obviously Garf and Fratella.

and he met all those guys and has remained close with them for years. But I wouldn't be coaching if it wasn't for him coaching at Durham High and, you know, them connecting into Garf. It's amazing. My dad. So my grandpa was an accountant. Yeah. In New York.

And he's a very successful accountant. And he became a car dealer because he would take over parts of people's businesses because, you know, look at the books, it's a bad shape because they don't know what they're doing. And, you know, with his accounting background, he took over a car dealership on Long Island. My dad was like 13 and moved out to Long Island. And he became the most successful car dealer on Long Island because he was the first to start leasing. And he was leasing to soldiers who were coming back from, you know, any sort of battle, whatever. he had connections within like the VA and they would get off a boat and he had a brand new

Cadillac for him. Yeah. And anyway, it kind of similarly, like, so my dad, his first job was at Fairlawn High School in New Jersey. And I believe the previous coach was Hughie Brown. No way. And yeah. And then my dad, he had this mercurial journey where he was like, he was a head coach at Colorado Springs High School

at Death Valley High School at I'll think of it in a second somewhere out in Western Pennsylvania close to where Jerry Lucas grew up Yeah Anyway, it's just It's interesting kind of the similarity

So your dad goes to wake as an assistant You're like two years old. So your earliest memories of basketball were more in a college gym or in a high school gym? Like what were your earliest memories? Definitely college. Yeah. Yeah, definitely college.

I mean, I remember wake a little bit. They had, because my brother was, you know, my brother's six, seven years older than me or whatever. And so at halftime, they always had this thing called the dribbling deacons. And so Lane was a part of the dribbling deacons. So I sort of remember that. And then, you know, he left there, you know, and became the head coach at East Carolina.

And so we moved down to Greenville. And I definitely remember that being there. I remember summer camps, you know, going to his camp. And he would always have great college counselors. I can remember James Worthy came, you know, one. It was probably his, after his junior or sophomore year or something. It was when he broke his leg. And he was out for basically the summer.

But he broke his like at the camp? No, no, no, no. I think it was, he had some sort of service. surgery over the summer. And so I'm just remembering him being at the camp with this huge cast on. I don't know how he worked camp with a cast on, but he did it. And then, you know, dad left there after three years and, you know, went up to Virginia. And that was kind of an odd thing, you know, because he was a head coach at East Carolina.

And then he went, you know, after three quick years to, and they weren't terrible what he used to do. They were okay. and he went to be an assistant for Terry Holland. Well, they were number one in the country at that point. That was when Ralph was still there. Ralph's senior year, you know, they were picked to win the whole thing. Okay, so let's let's start there. Okay, so you're how old at this time?

I'm probably going into, I'm going into third or fourth grade at that point. Like eight years old. Yeah. Ralph Samson. And like you and I know, and I think a lot of people listen, but there's some people who don't know. Like Ralph Samson was like three-time player that year, seven foot four. Yeah. Like crazy skill.

Crazy skill. And remember, this is at a time when the ACC has Worthy and Jordan. Right. Like everybody has NC State. It just won a national championship. Like the league is, and he's the best of all of them. Okay. So eight-year-old Ryan Odom.

Yeah. What do you remember about like the first, you're looking up at Ralph Simpson. Yeah, I mean, just shock, you know, never seen a guy that tall, number one. And to see the things that he was able to do on the basketball court, I mean, it's what you see all these guys nowadays. And obviously they've taken it to another level in terms of how they play with the ball,

you know, in terms of their skill level. But back then when you had big guys, it was all around the rim. You know, it was hook shots. And he certainly had all that. It was dunks, layups. and they would get to the free throw lot. But, you know, his ability to shoot and dribble and do the things that he could do on a court was amazing. But I remember the times where he wasn't played, you know, and I'm at the practice because we literally live.

You've been to Charlottesville and where the, you know, U-Haul was. There's a bridge. I've never been to Charlottesville. Oh, you've never been. I'm actually going to go there tomorrow. Oh, my gosh. I have a day off. Yeah.

This is, and we'll get back. I'm sorry. I apologize. up to your story. No, not at all. Okay, so the first high major

to offer me yeah, was Jeff Jones and Virginia. JJ, I work for JJ. Okay, so,

so when he was there, when he offered me, Harold Dean was his point guard. And I loved Harold Dean because Harold Dean had like the most, he and Jim Jackson had the most ripped arms.

Yeah. I was like, those guys are bad at. And so I remember, like, remember they used to, they used to send out, you know, all the mailing stuff, whatever. Oh, yeah. And so I, you know, like Virginia, Coach Jones offered me a scholarship. And I was still a junior in high school. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged.

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And this Mental Health Awareness Month, there's no better time to pour back into yourself. Listen to cultivating her space on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And at the time, it was mostly mid- majors and some tepid interest from some other schools. It was Virginia first and then launching. program for Florida off me. But Virginia sent me, so I had got all the stuff. And it was the first, it was the only school that when they sent all this information, I just poured over it. And I was just fascinated by the campus and the beauty of the campus and everything. And I became like, I became as like, because Bobby Hurley was my idol. Yeah. And I didn't know. I, but I still

to this day, I've never been to Cameron. I don't know anything about Duke. I don't know anything about Duke really as a university. But Virginia, I know everything about the building. and the architecture. Like, I was super into it. Yeah, it's fascinating stuff. Yeah, yeah. But I remember the old arena was a dump, like a complete. I just remember saying, like, why do they play there?

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Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Anyway, so it's fascinating that, okay, so you lived close to the, you live close to the... Yeah, so there's a bridge that leads, you know, from one little neighborhood over into where the old arena, U-Haul was. And now they've since torn it down. They've torn it down U-Haul. They imploded it a year ago. But the new arena is right beside that. And so literally, I would get home.

We lived two doors down from the Hollins. And so I grew up with, you know, Coach Holland and Mrs. Holland and their daughters, and Michael and Kate. Jim Laronaga was an assistant at the time. So Jay and I grew up together. That was kind of the staff at the time and the kids. Jay and John, John's, Jay's younger brother. And so we had a blast together, traveling around, you know,

watching at Final Fours and NCAA tournaments and just all these different, you know, experiences that we all had together growing up. It was really cool. And Coach Holland made it like a true family. But when I would get home from school, every day. I would get on my bike and I would ride across the bridge. Sometimes I would walk. And I would go to the practices. And, you know, literally, you think about the practices and the guys that were in the gym at the time. And then you had Ralph Samson. You had Rick Carlisle, you had Othel

Wilson, you know, who was an amazing guard and one of the best in the ACC at that time. You had Ricky Stokes, you know, who was incredible to watch. You know, you can, you can, you can, you can, keep going with all the players. When did you first start to absorb the actual basketball? It was probably then. Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, after we'd been there, you know, three or four years, you know, all of a sudden I'm 12 years old. And like, I'm working out hard over there and, you know, around the team, you know,

about when Brian Stiff and John Prattie and those guys came. man. Yeah, I mean, that was about the time where, huh? Like, Crotty was my favorite. These are good players. Yeah, I used to try to copy all products. I forgot. Like, John Crotty was, I forgot.

Like, man, he was a stud. Yeah. He got him so good. He was just a tough did it, too. I mean, he wanted to take it. Well, that's the thing. And, you know, I have an 11-year-old son. And, you know, like, he's like, he's the world's nicest kid.

Yeah. He's just nice. And I'll never forget, like, he was, I've always, I've tried to play him up a lot. 11 to playing, like, when you get to play 13s, like, there's just a physical difference. There's a, you know, the kids that have post-puberty, it's just really hard to fit in there. And he's, he'll, he's like me, he'll mature late. I'm still waiting. So when his, his first.

time playing like A.U basketball. Yeah. I started coached this like fourth grade B team. And I had him playing on it. He's like in third grade and he's young third grader. So instead of just like letting him play like he just he couldn't dribble his left hand, he felt his left hand. So I let him dribble right. And then we find the other team's point guard I would make we find out his right left handed make him go the other way the whole game. That's it. I simplify. And I just want you. should have guard him the entire game, you know, and just every time he gets the ball, make him go to his

left hand and his right hand. And so we're playing a team and his fourth graders, and he's really frustrating this kid. He's doing a great job. And nobody's looking at the free-to-line, the kid just turns and elbows him right in the head. He goes down the ground. He's crying, I hate basketball. You don't have to want to play this game. And I said to him then, I say to it now, I said, I said, Hayes. Listen, bro, if you want to play this thing, you got to be a tougher than a $2 stick. That's right. You got to.

And if we go through, we track the guys that have made it as backup point guards in the NBA, the guys that we all respect as the great college point guards. Like all of them, they have one thing in common. Yeah. Some of them are scores. some of them are facilitators, some of them are black, some of them are white,

some of them are mixed. They are all the toughest dudes on a basketball floor you will ever find. It is just that the nature of, you have to be smart, yes, a little bit, but you have tough

is way more important than anything else. Yeah, you're not going to make it if you're not tough. Like that kid T.J. McConnell right now that's still playing. I mean, he's tough as nails. Oh, like, look,

PJ McConnell, and I apologize, to him every time I see him. Because I was like, TJ, because I told him when he finished school, I was like, you know, like Europe's going to be hard because you got to, you can play, but he plays like a lot of Europeans in terms of his toughness, but they can all really shoot. And they like their own guy. I was like, you know, you should coaching, whatever.

He's like, I'm going to make it. And he's obviously made it. And he's made it because he knows, he does what he can do, just mid-range shots and layups. Yeah. Get their day open. And then he just. ball goes in the basket and he's, here we go. Yeah. He just guards and he's just tough. And they're going to, and they're going to, you know, they're going to come at you and try and expose you for

your weaknesses every time on defense and you either decide you want to play or you don't. And that's it. Yeah. It's really, you know. My dad used to always say there's nowhere to hide. Once you get inside those lines, there's nowhere to hide. Like, it's either you're going to get done or you're not. And as a team or as an individual, you know, if you're trying to make it as an individual, there's nowhere to hide. it's as fair as it gets. So, okay, so you're, so, so, so, I mean, Terry Holland had these amazing staffs. Yeah.

Amazing staffs. I mean, really like crazy you go back kind of, you go back through and look at all his assistants. They have all gone on. They were all successful in coaching and, and well respected. Why did they not win at all? I mean, I think you have to be lucky, you know, at times to win it all. I think that's the short answer of it. You know, they had, you know, that particular year, they ran into a team that caught lightning in a bottle.

Like if NC State didn't exist, Sidney Lowe and Derek Wittenberg and all that crew, you know, they wouldn't want it, most likely, you know, that year. and they ran into a team that would not, there was no give it. And there was just something magical about it. And I think sometimes that's just the way it is. Like, you know, you think about Virginia's run last year, a few years ago now. I mean, they had to escape multiple round,

multiple things had to happen, you know, in each game for them to continue to advance. And so I think not that, you know, They know they're lucky, you know, but you have to have luck, you know, without a doubt. And the matchups, you know, it's all the matchups, you know, each round, you know, how that plays out. You know, you know, I don't really know the ins and outs of exactly why they didn't win, didn't be NC State. But, you know, they had their chances. I know that.

So, so your, then your dad went where? So he left there in 89 and became the head coach at Wake. Yeah. So he was an assistant all the way to 89 and then took over Wake Forest that year. What was that like for you to leave? You're like painting a picture of Utopia and Virginia, right? Great teams. Charlottesville is supposedly amazing, you know, and great players.

And now you're at Wake Forest. Remember, this is, again, in the league in 89, where it's, Carolina, it's Duke, you know, it's still Virginia, whatever. What were your early memories of when your dad took over a week? Yeah, I mean, I can remember going to the press conference, right, at Grayland Conference Center. I mean, it was, you know, it was really exciting because dad had kind of, you know, achieved something that was a dream of this, you know, to be a head coach in the ACC. And it was at a place that he knew really well where he got his start. He knew all the people there already, you know, and, and, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know,

They were excited to, you know, to have him back. And it was an opportunity for him to build something. And, you know, I think one of the biggest things that helped him get it going was being able to sign Rodney Rogers. You know, that was the first sign that, man, they can do something. You know, if this guy's willing to take a chance on Wake, then, you know, we could have. something special here. So your dad gets the,

your dad gets the wake job. Yeah. Then what was that like for you in terms of your basketball? Now you're, your middle school, in the high school, getting ready for high school. Yeah, so I'm heading into 10th grade at that point. And so, you know, anytime you, you know, as a coach's son, you move around a lot. And so you have to be, you, you know,

we tried to always look at it as an opportunity as opposed to like, you know, this sucks, man. we're moving again. I just made all my friends here. Now I've got to leave all of them. The way we try to view it was, you know, I have more friends now because of this. And let's go make some more. And so that was our, you know, initial thought going in there. And it was a place that we knew. That's such a, that's a parent thing to say. I know. That's a good one. We'll just make more friends. Like, yeah, I don't know how that works. You're literally never going to see these people.

ever again in your life. Yeah, you're not the one having to walk into high school, you know, for the first day where you don't know. Plus, you're like, now the head coach's son, which is a completely different dynamic. Yeah, everybody has. The assistant coach's son. Yeah. Yeah, they're looking sideways at you right away.

So, okay, so what high school? I went to RJ Reynolds, yeah, which is, turned out to be a great blessing for me. It was a great school. Awesome school. I played for a coach named Howard West. who's one of the all-time winningest coaches in North Carolina history. Just a great coach. And met some lifelong friends there, man, lifelong friends.

I got a quick. My only, I got a couple of Wake Forest stories. One of them is, do you know that Fray McCaffrey went there? Well, my dad recruited him. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. So when your dad recruited him, was your dad still there when Fray was there? He was there for a year. I think. And then Fran left. He didn't play that much. And well, I don't know.

Frank, I think France said he started as a freshman. He might have. Yeah. And he said his Kyle Tasty story was this one. Yeah. This is a good one. It's a good one.

He said, he has two of them. Okay. And I probably, I've had him on the pod and I don't know. He didn't tell it. So I'll tell it for him. Yeah.

He said, one was. they're playing at Duke. And they had a rule. And you could ask your dad this rule. It was on the side, it was on the side, side out of bounds. They were in zone. Yeah.

Underneath they're in man. Okay. So they're playing at Cameron. The ball goes out of bounds. And it's down close to the corner, but it's on the side. Yeah. Or, excuse me, underneath out of bounds they're in stone, side there in man. Right.

So ball goes out of bounds and it's on the sideline close to the baseline, but still on the sideline. So Fran gets his man. They throw the ball in bounds to the elbow where he's supposed to be, if they were in a two, three zone. Only they're not supposed to be a two three zone. And Kyle Tacey hops up and, you know, and he. So Fran comes over and he's like, why did you take me out? and he said and he goes you don't know and so he goes instead of going and sitting down on the bench and he goes coach we got a rule side out of bounds we're in man underneath we're in zone

and tacy like wheels back and he's watching the game and like it should have been over at that point but of course if you know fran it's not over and so fran says something like so what you should have done was take those other four assholes out and left me in. So that is other stories. This is my favorite one. And I said, I'll never forget, we're sitting in the Joyce Center and we're watching the girls practice.

Little did I know that Margaret was a women's coach at the time. Fran was single and they just started dating or whatever. So watching the women's talk, Muffin McGraths, I was a great coach, watching practice. And I said, Brandy, when did you know you want to coach? And he said, I'll tell you the moment.

We played in College Park against Maryland. They got left to Drusel. We got Kyle Tase. They're both good coaches. And there's three seconds left to go in the game. And we're down a point. And we call a timeout. And assistants are arguing over what to run.

And by the time they decide that by the time Kyle Tacey comes over to drop a play, the buzzer sounds and the refs are putting us back out in the court. And he turns to me and he's like, Fran, get him something. He's like, you know, we're running two, whatever two is, right? So they get, they line up and lefty Drozelle looks, and it calls the time out because he wants to adjust to whatever countess to do it.

He's like, so I said to myself, wait a second, one guy can't get to decide what he wants to run the other guy wants to call a time out to give the other guy a chance to figure out what he wants to run it's like i got to do this this is the greatest job ever we all out think ourselves oh that's too funny so you're in high school imagine an olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged it's the enhanced games Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

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and then, you know, started my last two years. And, you know, my options were walk on at Wake, you know, walk on at Furman, But Chessies was the coach there. Great school. Yeah, great school. You know, or go to Hampton City. And, you know, I wanted to play. You know, it was still in me.

You know, I wasn't, I wasn't ready to kind of give up on the actual action. And, you know, I decided to go to go to Hampton, Sydney, and play for Tony Shaver. Tony, you know, was an awesome coach. He still is to this day and a tremendous mentor for me. He was a walk-on for Dean Smith at UNC. And I used to play against Phil Ford every day in practice. and so he taught us all so much, I mean, over the years. And I've still got some of my best friends and memories, you know, from college and games that we had.

And you know how it is. You remember, you don't necessarily remember all the games, but you remember all the times together outside of the games. And, you know, we still are on, you know, we still connect with one another, our team, you know, and text and all that from that time. So when you, so now you're starting to form. kind of your own basketball identity, right? Because, like, obviously your dad has one style. Yeah. High school coach is a style.

Tony has a style. You know, when you're a smart thinker, you have an opinion of your own. How did you guys play? Because you, I think you shot a lot of threes. Didn't you guys played back? Yeah, we had to send me, we were, we played the Carolina system. I mean, it was totally the Carolina system. I mean, we pressed, you know, I mean, we would score a basket and we were

24, what they call 24, which is face guard your guy, and we'd have a guy either on or off the ball. And we were making your life miserable, you know, the entire game, turning you, trapping you, the way they used to play back years ago. And occasionally, we would switch to his own, but that was rare. You know, that was a momentum changer. Offensively, we were motion. He had some sets and all those same sets that they would. run, you know, in transition, you know, reverse it back screen, you know, the lobs, all that kind of stuff. We did, we played Carolina basketball at Hampton, Sydney at that level. And, you know, very little scouting of the other team. Like, I don't even really remember

a ton of scouting for the other. I know they did it, but it was all about us. It was never about, like, the other team. They're going to have to beat us. And, you know, he was just a really, really good catch. And it was a fun time in my life. Are you ready for the big day? Not your big day, her big day. Valentine's Day. If not, you better rush to FTT.com to order early and save on a winning combination of flowers

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And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Dipers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect.

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Slash the right seat. Brought to you by Nidza and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky.

They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide through this fascinating world. Find a forest. near you and start exploring at discover the forest.org brought to you by the united states forest service and the ad council so so you get them playing yeah and then now you're just was it only basketball i mean like look that's a great school yeah i mean my thought uh initially i did an internship

my junior year um in between my junior and senior year at bank of america and charlotte and uh work for my godfather all summer and on the trading floor And so I thought about going into the financial. That was my initial goal. I was an econ major. I thought about going into financial world. And while I enjoyed it that summer, I wasn't ready to give up hoops. And, you know, as I got later into my senior year, you know, it was a parent that I wanted to coach.

And my father was kind of at the height of his career. You know, they had won back-to-back ACC championships with Duncan, Childress and those guys. and then my brother was coaching, you know, at Alabama. You know, they had Spreewell and Lori and all those James Hollywood Robbins. I mean, they actually, little in fact, my brother and my father played against one another in the NCAA tournament. You know, Alabama played Wake Forest, which is pretty cool. But, you know, it was apparent that I wanted to do that. and your old buddy, Seth Greenberg, gave me a chance down at South Florida and helped me get into

business and then gave me my second job or my third job at Virginia Tech, third or fourth. Yeah. So the, the, the, the, he tried to recruit you, didn't he? Did. So he recruited me at Long Beach, when I were initially coming out, like, you know, my dad, we moved out to California because my dad was an assistant under techs. winter at Long Beach. And, I mean, he had to go in at Long Beach State.

Yeah. He had, it was a big time program and a small time league. And, but I just, I mean, part of it was I really, you know, I, I probably won, I wanted to go to UCLA and they offered me, but it was just, it was, there was some baggage there in terms of them not offered me early. And they had taken a kid in from a younger, from a kid that you're behind me and I just, I didn't feel it. And I maybe wanted to get away as well. Like, you know, I've moved back since to California, but there's, there's a reason that I wanted to get away. I love, I know I love basketball, but I like, I want to play somewhere where they love basketball, where they care about it. It's a form of college atmosphere.

And it took a second stop to get there. But when I transferred, he and Dave Z, they put on the full court press to South Florida. Yeah. You know, we were, we were going to have, we were going to have a minion. We're going to have all the Jews gather in Tampa and be at South Florida. And so what year? What year was that? Because I think I was not right, didn't it?

96. And 96, 97 I sat out. Yeah. So I went there in 97. His first year, I was there. Yeah. Right. So he, yeah.

So he did like two home visits. Yeah. It was a weird. He would like, did a home visit. And then he, he did a home visit. He was like, he's like, I forgot some stuff. And I was just, I couldn't, I just couldn't do it. Couldn't do it.

I just couldn't do it. Like there was an ego part to it that I wasn't, I wasn't willing to give up the high major thing or whatever. And it wasn't anything personal, Seth. I love Seth. So, okay, but Seth coaches very differently than especially differently in your dad. Terry Holland. and Tony Shaver, what did you take from that experience when you're just getting into the business? Yeah, I mean, for, he wasn't afraid of anybody, you know, I think he's not that he's going to outwork because everybody works hard in college basketball.

Like there's, there's a lot of hard workers out there. He works really smart. And, you know, it's almost like he, like you have your back against the wall. He's got this underdog team. And he knew what it was going to take with his team. to get them to fight and be tough to a certain level to be competitive. And not only be competitive, but to win. I mean, like, what he did at Virginia Tech?

You know, and, you know, his time there, you know, he got that program going again. It had fallen on hard times, you know, had some transition in terms of moving leagues and all of that. and he just infused this immediate energy and no fear and, you know, it got to the students. But how? I, I, how do you do it? How do you infuse toughness and energy and belief when it doesn't exist? Yeah, I mean, I think initially it's, it's, you know, the recruiting side of things, you know, you have to, you have to, we were fortunate in that, you know, when, when he first got there, he signed, he ended up signing Zadio, who he was recruiting at. South Florida. Zavian turned out to be at all ACC performer. He was just a hard worker and had no

fear and had a chip on his shoulder and wanted to prove people wrong. So I think that's one of the first ways that you do it is you have to have others within your program that feel like they've been slighted a little bit and they have something to prove. And we had a group of guys that felt that way. Jamon Gordon was his back court mate. I mean, Jamon Gordon was recruited. by the Georgia Techs and some of these other schools, you know, overlooked probably by his local schools in Florida State and Florida and Miami. And he came up to Virginia Tech. And it was open for them to play because, you know,

we didn't have anybody else really at that point. And, you know, they just, they just took it. Those two guys took it and ran with it. And we had a young player in Coleman Collins to just kind of grew into an amazing role. and became a dominant, you know, and became a dominant, you know, player for us. And we just kept recruiting, you know. I think one of the things that, you know,

he really tried to do was play off of the success that football had already established. Right. Like, there's a built-in fan base at a football school like that, you know, Virginia Tech. And so all of the cheers and the things that they were excited about, you know, we tried to move. into Castle Coliseum.

And the students already were excited about the university as a whole. Like you walk around that school, you don't see any other shirts. You know, there's certain schools where it's like, you know, Wake, for instance, you know, they're just mixed allegiances in that community.

It's not Wake's fault. It's just, you know, you have UNC, you have Duke and Carolina and NC State. They're also close together. Naturally, there's mixed allegiances. Well, at a place like a college town like you're talking about, there aren't any. Like everybody's for that, for that school.

And so you don't wear that. You don't wear another color. Like that's the thing that I think people don't, if you haven't been a part of it, you don't understand. Like, if you live in Stillwater or you're an Oklahoma State person, you don't own anything that's red. You don't own any shade of red, you just don't own. Everything you have, like, you fall back on orange, right?

Like, that's just the way it works. And whether it's maroon or orange or whatever, when you're Virginia Tech, like, that's all you own. You're just all in. Yeah. And so he was able to play on that. And, you know, he's obviously a great motivator, a great, you know, communicator. And, you know, he made it a point to get to know the students, you know,

to really get out in the community and, you know, be a voice, you know, for the basketball program. Hey, we're here too. We're trying to do something special, you know, just get on board with us. And the players obviously did the bulk of the work. You know, they began to have success and play a tough brand of basketball that that community really fell in love with. Like his teams were tough. And that was all built in practices and just a work ethic, you know, that he established. And, you know, yeah.

So then you went where? Left there and went to UNC Charlotte and worked for Allen Major. at UNC Charlotte. So he was just leaving Ohio State. They had been in the Final Four. And at that point, Charlotte was in the Atlantic 10. And they were adding Buckler and VCU and all the other teams that, you know,

I don't bother since left, but are currently in the league. And I mean, it was a big time league. And it was a big time opportunity for me. It was a chance for me to go work for guy was going to be a first time head coach. And so I wanted to do that again, you know, and it was home, you know, as well. I hadn't worked in North Carolina in a long time. My brother worked there for Lutz, and so I knew the history of the program.

You know, I felt like it was a Xavier kind of situation, you know. It was a while, yeah. Yeah, and it was. I mean, they were competitive with Cincinnati and Louisville and all those teams. And, you know, while we didn't achieve everything that we wanted to, to achieve while we were there. We recruited some great guys and, you know, had a good experience without a doubt.

I wouldn't trade that experience for anything. Yeah, you took over his interim. I did, yeah, my last year. Yeah. What, what, first take me through the experience of when a coach, and I think he had some health issues too, right? And then, and then how does it go down or how did it go down for you in that, you know, the AD comes in and says like, hey, you're the guy.

Yeah, I mean, I think it was, just the AD, how did it all work? Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it was, the AD ended up, you know, communicating that to all of us. But at the same time, Alan was intimately involved in that, you know, in terms of, you know, spearheading, spearheading that and what was what was best, what he thought was best for the program. But there are other experienced assistant coaches on that staff. I mean, Desmond Oliver, Orlando Van Dundras, both. you know, or friends to this day. And, you know, I think our approach was, we're just going to do this together.

While I have to actually be the interim head coach, we're going to do this thing together. That's the only way it's going to work. And I didn't want that separation. And so we kind of kept doing our jobs, you know. You know, we had the respect of the players. And, you know, obviously all three of us had kind of been intimately involved. We recruited together there a little bit. differently than some other places that I've worked where it's like, hey, you go recruit this guy

and he's your guy and whatever. We recruited together. So that part of it was not an issue. Our whole goal was to do the best for those players that we could do while understanding that their leader was going to be gone for a bit. And we didn't know how long it would be. It ended up being that entire season, or not an entire season, but from January on for the remainder of the year. and that was a hard ending for us. I think we were, I don't remember exactly what our record was. We lost in the first round of the tournament in a really close game. I think it might have been to middle at the time.

I can't remember who it was. But anyway, we were like 8 and 11. We weren't great, obviously, but we weren't terrible either. We had some really good players, you know, at that point. A lot of them went on to high majors. after, you know, Alan and them, Alan and us were let go. And, you know, we, it was a tough ending for us, for sure. And that was a dark time for me personally, getting fired.

You coach long enough, you're going to get fired. You know, it's just the way it is. So that's why I asked. Okay, so, you know, I think one of the, one of the hard things for fans and the media is the, understanding of like when people get fired like we just very callously go like well he should get fired and he makes a bunch of money like well on man you got all these assistant coaches and while they're they're making decent living like they got to go home and they have wives and kids and they're going to move and they got to try and go find a job like it is uh okay so uh what do you

remember about losing you lose your job in charlotte then what what what's that yeah i was devastated you know i was devastated i felt like i let out and down, you know, the players, you know, and obviously circumstances or circumstances, you know, we could have won some of the games we lost, but we didn't, you know, and, you know, it is what it is. The results were the results. And no hard feelings, obviously. They made the decision that they felt was right for the, you know, the program at the time and still have a good relationship with with with the folks there at charlotte um but you know for me personally the biggest issue that i had going on you know my family was my son was sick you know it's been pretty well

documented connor has oCD and so my wife was not hiding but she was really during that time where i was the interim coach she was trying to keep it off of me and but he was getting worse you know every day went. And, you know, it got to a point where the season ended and he was really, really bad. And, you know, I remember one weekend, I had to take my youngest and go down to Charleston just to get him out of the house. Owen, you know, just to get him away from, you know, seeing Connor in a bad state. And Lucy just obviously was an amazing. force for Connor and led us through that.

And that's the hard deal. They had two different stents, you know, in Nashville, Tennessee, doing therapy, you know, at a hospital. And so she had to get up and move all the way out there with him, rent an apartment, which obviously costs money. You know, you think about that, like all of a sudden we're fired, no job. She's got to move to Nashville, you know, And we got bills to pay, you know, it's, it's not, it's not going, it's not going, it's not going anywhere.

And, uh, during that time, I think he left in August and he and Lucia left in August. And I had accepted a job at the Noron University. I was very fortunate to, to get that job. And, and I was a division two head job, you know, at a place that, you know, to this day, I wouldn't be where I'm at, you know, had not been, you know, presented with that opportunity, you know, and I'm forever thankful for that, for sure, saved our lives. Okay, so now you have your own program. Yeah.

And you've been at all sorts of different levels. You have your family and you're trying to figure that out. How did you put together your first team at Ryan? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I was lucky again, you know, I followed a coach and John Lentz, you know, who had been there for 28 years. And great coach. He's Rick Barnes' teammate. You know, and they both played at Lenore Ryan.

And he, he was a coach that, you know, I don't know how to describe him, but like his players knew exactly what he wanted. He was a tough coach, all right? And so this, the team that I inherited was very disciplined. And for a young coach to come in in that capacity to inherit guys, I mean, they were already trained. He had well trained them. And so I walked into a great situation.

Maybe we didn't have exactly, you know, the talent, you know, that some of the other programs in that conference had. We were able to recruit and add a couple of guys that, you know, when combined with the returners, ended up being, you know, a storybook season for us. And, you know, I found just some amazing players there, still have amazing relationships with those guys to this day, forever grateful for them, you know, for all their hard work.

But that was a fun year, man. Sweet 16 had some great, great memories. So you inherited a tough team, maybe not as talented as others in that league, and then I lost. Yeah, we recruited, and then we added to that. We recruited a kid named Keenan Palmore, who was transferring from Old Dimitius. and Jeff Jennings.

And he had one year remaining. And he played for Old Dominion. He was kind of, you know, I don't know what you would call it, backup maybe or whatever. He wasn't a full-time starter. He did start some games. But, you know, heading into his senior year, it was apparent he was going to be a backup. And he didn't want to do that. And he found us in Lenore Ryan.

And, you know, that connection was very strong. He ended up being an All-American. He had four or five triple doubles, you know, that year. and he was just an amazing player. And he came into a group of guys with no ego. It was all about, he was an amazing pastor. You'll love this about him. Like he literally made like two three-pointers the entire year.

And our team shattered the three-point record, you know, for the conference, you know, all time. Shattered the record for Lenore Ryan. And we were number one in Division II and three. three-pointers made per game at like right at 13, just under 13. But it was all because of him. Like he was getting guys shots over and over and over again. He was just getting the lane and get it to him. But he also knew that he wasn't a three-point shooter.

And so he ended up taking two shots at the end of shot clocks. And one of them went in and I was hoping he was going to get a whole season and not make one. I was actually pulling for that. because what a story, right? You know, everybody shoots the three now, and it's like, care. Like, he just wanted to get in the lane and play into his strengths. But that was one of the reasons that we won. And so then, so what was your decision like to leave there?

You know, it was a hard decision. It was an emotional decision because I found some guys there that had changed my life that I love dearly. But at the same time, you know, I understood that, you know, coaching, being a head coach in Division I is a hard thing. It's hard to get those jobs. And there are only 344 or whatever that number is of them. And it's very competitive. And when you have an opportunity to do it, you know, I'm a big believer.

Yeah, they're good jobs. There are certain jobs are better than others, but there's no bad Division I. You go make it. You can make it what you want to make it. And, you know, I felt like UMBC was, it was a great time to go here. You know, they had some hard times, but they were building a brand new arena. We're in a geographic footprint that, you know, basketball is important like you were talking about. And, you know, I felt like, you know, we could build something special here.

So what was your first team like? First team, again, I inherited a group. That just great. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam, this Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast PointG game is about defying the odds.

Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid.

He has to guard Julius Rand. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Rider Strong and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the Pod Meets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge.

That is the point of this show. I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some Survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was just because we? Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion in the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay

to the desperate plea is the finalist to a bunch of ha-hoo. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune into Pod Meets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Twirl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Agency. The ability to know that we're the experts in our own body. On the podcast cultivating her space, Dr. Dom and Terry Lomax create a space where black women can show up fully and be heard. I wholeheartedly think, you know, you hit 30.

You shouldn't have to share one with anybody. Mm-hmm. From navigating friendships and healing to setting boundaries and prioritizing your mental health. These are real honest conversations. We don't always get to have out loud. Totally unreasonable with different parts of life, right? Like, oh, have all three meals and. Make sure you're mindful during all of them?

Absolutely not. During one meal, I'm standing. I'm standing and handing my children food. Because healing, empowerment, and resilience aren't just ideas. They're practices. And this Mental Health Awareness Month, there's no better time to pour back into yourself. Listen to cultivating her space on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Guys, you know, I had guys on the team that were 4.0.

students. I had guys that had transferred, one transferred from DCU who ended up in, you know, probably my best player, you know, who just happened there. As I began to have my meetings with the players while they hadn't won together at UMBC, one thing, one common theme was they had all won other places. You know, one, one had played at Brewster Academy with Donovan Mitchell, you know, and they didn't lose a game. You know, another one played at Matha, you know, and won championships. And so as I went through that team, they all won elsewhere. And so it was all about, and the coaches had won elsewhere.

And so it was all about we made it, hey, let's win together now. We all know what it feels like to win. Let's make sure that we're doing that every day. So my whole thing was we're going to establish a winning culture. That means we got to compete to win every day. And we compete with one another first. And we prepare, you know, for our opponents. And then we begin to compete against that.

in. Okay, so this is, and again, if you're tight on time, you tell me. So this is what's fascinating to me. There hasn't been a job that you've gone to where, and again, you know, there's probably some guys you're not mentioning, but most coaches confide in coaches and people like me, and they're like, you know, wait until I get my guys in here, right? No, yeah, yeah. you know and they they run they run guys off they call them in and and they say like look man

you're a great kid you're just never going to play here gotta yada yada and they just buy time until their their recruits come in and now they're they're all in which i always find to be a mistake yeah um is that what why do you does do you not seem to have that is it because of the the guys that preceded you left you or is it that's it's just a philosophical belief that you have? Yeah, I think it's a belief. I mean, for sure. I mean, they chose that school for a reason. And, you know, they chose those coaches. And they have a right to, if they want to leave, you know, when you first get there, then that's fine. I'm not trying to hold anybody, hold anybody here. But if they want to stay, I want them to be able to, they have their scholarship. They want to, they want to do that. I want them to do that. But they're going to be a part of this program and do it the way we ask them to do it and all that. But, you know, I believe retention is a key thing, you know, in any college basketball program or any endeavor, for that matter. You know, when you have folks that, you know, are all in, you want to keep them. You know, you look at all the great college football and basketball programs over the years.

You know, the head coach stays there, the assistant coaches, you know, for the most part stay there unless they're moving on to head jobs. those are the teams that usually win. And if you have a lot of volatility and change every year, and I know it's going to be harder, you know, as they change these rules. I mean, it's just it is what it is. Retention is a huge thing, you know. But why?

I guess, I guess this is an honest question, but why do we, we seem to let these exterior forces be a part of this change when you and I have been around this our entire lives, and we know that's actually not, and look, I'm a transfer, okay? And I was, before I even got, they found out I got in trouble,

I was considering transfer. So I'm not saying that I think there's a, there's maybe another discussion. I think that one of the biggest issues is that you don't get enough time to truly recruit somebody and know that kid and him know you, so that when he shows up on campus, you actually know what you got on both sides, right?

Yeah. And I think that would help. But it feels like we're all like, you know, just the times that you can be able to transfer and not sit out. Like, why? But because somebody on Twitter who's never been a part of it doesn't understand that every freshman wants to transfer. Yeah. They either want to transfer to the NBA or to another school. Right?

But you know what else? Almost every college kid wants to transfer. Because your freshman year is hard. It's hard. Really hard. Yeah. You know, the classes are hard. You're away from home.

You have to manage a budget. It demands your time. You have to manage your relationships. Like, it's really hard. Imagine what it's like in a pandemic. You know, like I feel for the kids that are freshmen right now, this is their first experience in college.

My son's one of them. And it's just, you know, it's not normal. You know, you're getting your nose poked and tested constantly. And, you know, you got to go back to your dorm room or wherever you live. And, you know, I can't be exposed to anyone. it's just not a normal situation. And, you know, it's everybody's sacrificed it, and certainly this year. You know, hopefully we'll get back to normal at some point.

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Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination. Our sense of wonder. And our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other.

The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this,

we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Okay, so how did you make it hit? Like what, when did it like, this is going to work? Yeah, I mean, I think that first year, I mean, I called that team the foundational team, you know, and we compare it to a house, you know, when you establish a foundation, that foundation's got to be

strong. I can't have any cracks in. And I inherited some great guys. And I think going back to the culture thing, you know, trying to create a winning culture. And, you know, going back to what you said, it's not about what the previous staff did or saying, oh, they had a bad culture or whatever. We're trying to change the culture. Now, we're not trying to do that. We're trying to establish our own winning culture. I don't care what happened before. I want to make sure that every day that they come in here, they're trying to win. And, you know, that means against one another, whether it's a one-on-one drill or whatever it is, like we're going to be competitive.

And if you're not, you're fooling yourself because when the game happens, you're going to get beat, you know, on a regular basis. And, you know, this game is played with physicality. It's played, you know, with the physical side of things, but it's also played, you know, on the mental side of things. And if you don't have both, you know, you're going to get beat. And so we spend a lot of time. I'm, you know, with our guys working on both.

And, you know, and then, you know, I think distractions are a big part of why teams don't win. And I was very fortunate in that first year did not have many distractions in terms of off-the-court things that can derail, you know, a team and its ability to go for it. These guys were all in. And, yeah, we weren't great, but we still wanted to. 21 games. They had won prior to that, seven straight, 20 loss seasons. And so this team, you know, had the biggest turnaround in Division I, you know, that year. And, you know, while we didn't win our goal or make our goal, make the NCAA tournament, it was evident that everybody was coming back and we had a chance to be really good at that next year now. We were going to still have to be,

you know, Vermont team. It was spectacular, you know. So sometimes when guys come back, sometimes when guys come back, it's not a good thing, right? Yeah. Because they have, they have, everybody expects more. Yeah. Fans expect more, but everybody expects more. What was that next year like? Well, the next year was the NCAA tournament year.

And, you know, we got off to a good start. We did have a few injuries. You know, we're Jaros missed a game or two. Jordan missed a game or two. were my kind of guards there. KJ missed the first two games. It was the starting point card. You know, when we played Arizona and SMU.

And so, you know, I knew we had a chance when we were playing Arizona. And, you know, they couldn't really separate them until the very end. You know, they would get out, you know, eight, nine points and then all of a sudden we'd close it back. You know, and then halftime we're down seven or eight or something like that. then they'd get it out to 16 and then all of a sudden it's three. You know, that particular team was resilient and we played that particular game without KJ. Mora, who ended up, who was our point guard, kind of the maestro of the whole team. And we were still in it.

And so I felt like this particular team had a chance, you know, to do something special, at least in a non-conference, told me that. And then once we got into conference play, we were pretty consistent, you know, We lost, even though we lost to Vermont twice, we only lost one other game, I think, you know, in conference play. And so we knew, you know, if we wanted to make it, eventually we were going to have to go through Vermont, you know, at that point. And, you know, obviously we were able to do that in the final game. What's that experience like? Because everybody focuses on the Virginia game.

Yeah. But the Vermont game gets you actually like that's the big one. That's the one. The rest is icing. Yeah. What do you remember about that game? Yeah, I mean, it was just a hotly contested game. The place is packed, obviously.

I think we're up maybe a couple at half. And we were fortunate to be up. I mean, they were playing well. We made some shots at the end of the half just to kind of eke that out. You know, what I remember most is KJ, our point card, getting its fourth foul with about eight minutes to go or 12 minutes to go. and I was like, oh, crap, we're in trouble here. And we kind of lucked into something, you know, that particular game.

I put him back in early and I changed the matchup, you know, for who he was going to guard. I put him on a shooter, you know, which wasn't a normal thing for us. You know, he always guarded the other team's point guard. He was defensive player in the year that year, even though he's 5, 7. And so he would always pester, like your son, pester the other team's point guard. and Vermont had a great point for that year. Trey Bell Haynes was spectacular. He was hard to pester.

And we ended up moving the matchup and put a bigger guy on Bill Haynes and KJ ended up guarding the shooter. And so it allowed him to kind of stay in the game longer, you know, without risking a foul. And so that was a huge key. And then at the end, you know, obviously Jarus was Jarus. Jarvis worked really hard for that moment. And, you know, I could have been more proud of him and the growth that he showed over the two years that I was fortunate enough to coach him.

He was a great player, a great score, dynamic player. He was the best player in the league to me that year, even though he did get player of the year. And for him to have the ball at the end of the game in that moment was the right thing. And it was the way it should have ended. And, you know, I wanted to run another play. And KJ's yelling at me, no, don't run that play because it would have required him to give the ball up. And so I had to trust that. What did you want to run?

So I wanted to run just one of our plays called Euro 2, where, you know, KJ starts it and then he flips it back to Jaris. Jaris gets it, you know, a pick and roll, ball screen comes out. And then he's able to kind of get downhill and make the play. So what had happened? It would have required GERIS already had the ball. And I knew I wasn't call it time out. Right. And so is that typically your style in terms of not calling a time out?

Usually, yeah, usually, you know, I like to, I like my guys to be able to know what to do in those instances. Not to say that I won't call timeouts, I certainly will, you know, if it's not going well. But at the same time, you know, I like to be able to coach from the side there where they can't get it set and I like to go and trust my guys. And that particular team, I had no reason not to trust them. I had three really good guards that, you know, knew what to do. I've never understood. There's a lot, there's lots of coaches who, like, not only you practice this all year,

you play it all year, you're right in front of your bench. Yeah. And yet they want to call a time out, which allows the other guy to set their defense. Like, I don't understand. I really for the life of me don't understand. Still a soft. And sometimes, you know, you want to get somebody in or whatever for a matchup. Yeah.

But I don't understand. Anyway, okay, so he has the ball. What was my job at that point was to get everybody the hell out of the way. That's good coaching. Get it space, baby. Get it space. Let him go. And he delivered, you know, he delivered.

So it's not complicated, right? It's simple. So double zero is in the clock. Yeah. You look up what you look up at the scoreboard. You look at your family. Like what, what do you remember about the moment? Yeah, I mean, I remember hugging my kid.

I remember hugging my wife, you know, and every player. You know, I remember having a moment with my AD, you know, who believed in me. and our staff, he's crying, you know, we're all crying. My best friend in the world, Griff Aldrich, who's now the coach of Longwood, you know, was a lawyer and my college teammate decided he wanted to coach, you know. That's that moment? Yeah, so he came with me when I first came to UMBC. And so he and I were hugging big time, you know, to have that experience.

with your best friend. You know, it's pretty cool. And so, yeah, it was an emotional time. I mean, that game's way more emotional than, you know, the Virginia game, obviously. Not obviously, but for us, it was because, you know how it is. It comes down to that one weekend. Like, you know, the best season that we just experienced it.

It comes down, it comes down. We were the number one seed. We got knocked out. You know, another team gets hot at the end in the last eight minutes. And, hey, the season's over. You walk in the locker room. It's like, what just happened? You know, it's crazy.

So. So you get back and that championship's a little bit early, right? Yeah. So now you got to get ready. What was Selection Sunday like? Selection Sunday was fun. You know, they had a big party on campus and, you know, the typical thing. CBS wanted to do the in-person, whatever, live.

look in, you know, with us, you know, because it was our first time going to the tournament since 2008, and we had a, you know, a crazy ending, obviously, in the conference final. And so that was great. And then, you know, we see Virginia's name pop up. I was expecting, quite honestly, to be a 15. We had a good team that year. I felt our numbers would be such that we would be in that 15 line. And so I was really thinking Duke, you know, I was thinking some of those teams that were on the two line that we would end up playing. And so I was a little bit shocked. And I did a, we all did a collective gulp and gas we saw Virginia because they were just so good that year.

I mean, they were so good. And we didn't know Hunter was going to be out at that point, you know. So it was just, and for me, a lot of emotions because I grew up there, you know, going back to that, you know, I grew up there. It's where I first fell in love with hoops. You know, got a lot of respect for Tony and his staff. So it was, it was, that part was kind of crazy. You know, and the bridge and everything and Terry Holland staff. Okay, so you throw in the tape.

Yeah. And you're sitting there with your staff. What did you think? Yeah, I mean, I thought this is the best team in college basketball. They're the most well-balanced team on both sides of the ball. You know, are we going to be able to score 36, you know? I mean, that's the reality. That's what every coach, when you're getting ready to play Virginia, it's like, you know,

they may not go to 80 on you, all right, but can you get to 40? You know, I mean, that's the reality. You know, they're going to get the 60, most likely. They're probably going to get to 70 if they want. They don't really go past that very often, at least in that era they didn't. I'd seen them play teams earlier in the year that they held the 36 points, NCAA tournament teams. And so we knew we had a tough, tough task, a tough draw.

One of the things that helped us with that draw was weeks of preparation, you know, for Vermont. You know, they play a similar brand of defense. You know, they guard you hard, but they don't allow threes, you know, they guard the two extremely well at the rim. The rotations are pristine. And so we had a lot of prep, you know, leading into the Virginia game against that type of defense. That certainly helped us offensively.

When did you know what Hunter was that? Not until we were on the plane going down there. Yeah, so that was probably on a Wednesday, maybe, two or three days before the game, something like that. I think that's about what we figured out. All right. So you land and all of a sudden you're like, wait a second. Hold on. this is a

that's a big deal. Yeah, that was a big deal. Yeah, because whenever they needed a basket, they were going to him. You know, and like,

and sometimes it was a post up, you know, whatever. If it ever got dicey, you know, they were running something to get him the ball in and near the basket

or in kind of a mid post area or up near the elbow and an ISO situation. And so I knew he would be a problem. Not that I felt like we could guard all the other guys, but, you know, I knew that had to be,

potential to change it somewhat, you know, at least, at least it didn't, it certainly didn't hurt. Let's just say that. But it also, it also defensively changed them because now they had to play two traditional bigs. Yeah. And, you know, so, okay. So, you know, I know how it works. I've been in those locker rooms and I've never been in a locker room where, you know,

couldn't make you believe you had a chance. Yeah. And that if you execute the game plan, like we're going to win the same. game, fellas, and here's how we're going to do it. You're like, we're going to do it. And what was the belief level like from your team in your prep? I knew never to doubt that particular team. I wasn't saying that we, you know, I would never say that we knew we were going to win the game. You know, our goal was to be competitive in the game and to be in the game and to have a chance at the end. I mean, that was really our whole focus.

Obviously, the result ended up being totally different, you know, than my game. what anybody ever imagined. But it was all about how are we going to stay in it on offensive defense? And we felt like defense was the way for us to stay in the game, to be honest. Like we knew scoring on them was going to be insanely difficult. And so we felt like we had a very good defensive team that year. And our goal was pressure those guards as much as you can and not allow them to center the ball. I mean, that was kind of our whole thing.

So you felt like your defense was the way in which you'd win the game, right? Yeah, so I felt like defense was our way to stay in the game. Like I didn't want our guys. Like when you play a Virginia team, frustration sets in. You know how it is. You're a player. Like, if you're not scoring, sometimes that could impact your defense. Then your defense breaks down.

Yeah, your defense begins. break down. And so that was our message to them. Like, we can't get seduced into an offensive game against them or get frustrated because our offense isn't going well. We have to guard every single possession, like it's the last one. And we did some specific things relative to them and how they run that mover blocker and all that. We felt like we needed to pressure them. We had seen a lot of teams just back up, you know, and not get after them. We had seen a lot of. lot of teams not try to run them, you know, as well because they do a good job of getting back on defense and transition. And we, I wanted our guys to take the opportunities early in transition if they were there because you're not just going to be able to hold the ball against them and move it around and get a great shot. Like sometimes the best shot you can get against them is early. And so I wanted our guys to try to do that. And if they had it, let's roll with it. But at the same time, don't take a battle. We practice all week, shooting against hands, you know,

and pressure because they're always going to be there pretty much in front of you. And you're going to have to practice well behind the line shooting threes because we knew, you know, those are the shots that you can get against them. We were honest with our team about if you're going to win this game, you're going to have to out shoot them and you're going to have to keep them from shooting threes. It can't just be take away the rim. And then all of a sudden they're getting 10 threes as well, just like us. We're not going to win with that.

And so we had to take away their three, defend like crazy, and rebound. And we had to make threes, you know, layups, basically. I mean, that's really the gameplay. It wasn't much more than that. Yeah, I mean, like you also spread them out. You had a. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean, we changed our angles on our ball screens and all that.

We didn't set middles, you know, because they're so well-schooled it's stepping out. he set all flats. You know, that was that was kind of the, you know, the game plan. I think that's my, I think that's one thing, though, that like, you know, now a couple years later, maybe you still don't get credit for. Was it just because people go back, well, they didn't have DeAndre Hunter. So, you know, like, no, you guys did some specific things. Yeah.

That made it really way more difficult. You knew how. Because they are, they were. And this is where I had a, I had a lot. conversation with Tony like a week later. And I, and my, my message to him was like, you can't, you can't just do what you do. And you have to try different things. Play left hand at some, you know, figure out a way. I mean, like, okay, Hunter gets certain. What lineups had you tried all year long? In, in, in case, what if he got three fouls in the first

half, you know? What if a kid, what if a kid is sick? And, And what if a team knows what you do and designs and has personnel to execute and make you chase them? So I think you don't, to this day, I just, we don't cover things the way. I mean, I just wish there was like a college basketball matchup show where I go like, it wasn't just that they made a bunch of threes. It was they did some things specifically. They were fascinating and that you should get credit for. Okay, so you get to the game.

games can be won and lost in layup lines. Oh, yeah, no question. Right? When the guys start peeking, they go, holy shit, they're freaking, they look good. We don't. When you looked your team in the eye, what did you see when you're standing in front of them? Yeah, I mean, I saw a bunch of guys that have been overlooked and that were including myself, you know, that, you know, had an opportunity, you know, had an opportunity.

And I felt like there was a reason that we were in that building at that moment. What that reason was, I wasn't quite sure. I didn't necessarily think that we were going to win the game going into that, right? And while I'm giving that speech, but my speech to them prior to that game was a thankful one. I thank those guys for bringing me and my family back to Charlotte. where I was let go. That was it. You know, I just said, look, you know, this, this, you know, this business is extremely hard.

In a lot of ways, we all have our own stories, right? Jarrah started at VCU with shock it didn't go well. He ends up at Robert Morris stays there for half the year. Then he lands at UMBC. KJ, you know, gets let go at Texas A&M Corpus Christi and, you know, has to go to Jucco for a year. you know, rehabilitates himself and then he doesn't have a division one offer

except for us and ends up there. Joe Shermer had one D1 offer, you know, and it was UNBC. Like you go around the room and it was just like a bunch of overlooked guys, you know, that had a story. And I said, we're all here in this moment together. We've done this together, you know, at this time.

And you guys in particular have done this for me. And so I'm forever grateful. you know, for what you guys have done. Now let's go out there and just show everybody our passion and belief in one another, you know, that we can compete with this team. And, you know, I shed some tears. I'll be quite frank with you, you know, while I was giving that speech. And it was very emotional.

And that was, you know, not the first time. I do that with my team not all the time, but, you know, I'm real. And, you know, I think they appreciate it. appreciated that. They understood the message. And more than anything, they were ready. They knew they had an opportunity to make history. And so they wanted to go for it. And, you know, there were some bumps in that first half, but the defense kept us in. You know, it was 21, 21. Both teams. Okay. So, so 21, 21. Yeah. And I remember, I'm sitting there watching the game. And I said to, I'm with a group of guys. And I go, they got them. And they're like, it's like, Virginia's going to kick their ass. in the second half. You know how this goes, right? They said,

they can't guard them. Yeah. They can't, they're too quick. They can't guard the ball. Yeah. You know? And the,

it's the, it's the, it's the, what we always learn and we try and tell kids all the time. It's like, hey, man,

you want to get on the floor. Yeah. The first thing you have to be able to do is guard the basketball. Yeah. Right. And it's the best thing that they do at Virginia.

And I felt like you had them spread out. They were kind of chasing. They were chasing you. And I was like, if they could just, hit a couple, hit a couple jump shots. You know, they just, they can't, it's a bad matchup because you got their, you got their bigs 30 feet from the basket chasing you around.

And what's the name of that big white kid that Virginia had? It had a great name. Salt. Salt. Salt. Salt. Yeah. Jack Salt.

Right. Jack Salt is a great name. I had done their game, I think earlier in the year, when they had played, you know, played in Destin, Florida. Yeah. And I loved him. And I was just like, yeah, but, you know, those tough twos, you know, back to the

basket post up twos, like, there's a reason analytics tell you those are a tough shot. Yeah. And you guys were playing the post right. I was like, I don't, I don't think Jack Salt can score 20. And I think that you guys can hit some threes. And the guys around like, watch the shit. They're going to, you know, NBC is going to score 10 in the second half. half. Okay, so you come in at half.

Okay. And the way it works is, hey, the players run in and you meet with your staff. What's your staff say? I think they were optimistic, you know. I mean, they always get really good thoughts. And we talk about offense first and then we talk about the defense and just little things that we need to pay attention to. And so really halftime was about, you know, highlighting things that we tried to do going into the game to actually get them done in the first half or did we not. I thought we did.

I felt like we were good on the glass. They got a couple of offensive rebounds, but we were pretty solid there. I think offensively, you know, pressure, our pressure was solid. You know, they were able to just get into the paint constantly on us, you know. And I felt like our ability to navigate the screens. Like that was a big, we worked on that a ton, all right, navigating, defending that mover blocker because, you know, you go, as soon as you go the wrong way, they make you pay with a three. And so our goal was, we compared it to Tom Brady.

If you let Tom Brady sit back in the pocket as the point card and just, you know, see everything, he's going to pick you apart. And so we said, pressure the guy. I don't care who it is. If the big guy has it out top, if the point card has it, whoever that guy is that's going from the wing, centering the ball, try to keep him on a side and just pressure the crap out of them,

just to disrupt the timing of their screening angles and to give the defender time to get through. And so we worked on that a ton, and I thought that was pretty successful for us. We were always kind of there where they caught the ball. I mean, that was the key. I don't care which way you go. Just be right there when they catch it.

And, you know, I thought that was. was a big key for us. And then offensively, our guys felt like, hey, we miss some shots out there. You know, we can, we can, we can get some shots against them. We just got to knock them in. And, you know, we got off to a good start right out of the, right out of the gate, at a half time. And, which was not a, an, something that I hadn't seen before with this team.

This team is, you know, they've been tied at half and then come out and, and, and gone on runs, you know, big runs, you know, at times during the. season. But I would also say it wasn't an unnatural position for Virginia either. They've been tied or down one or up to plenty of times. So for them, there was no reason for concern at that point. It was just, hey, we're going to win the game. You know, we're going to figure it out. So when did you know? I mean, I probably, I probably knew that we had a significant chance around that eight-minute timeout right in there. Like we had a solid chance because we'd gone up so much.

And I had seen our team, my job at that point was, hey, don't take the foot off the gas. Because as soon as you take the foot off the gas, you start coughing the ball up, you know, they lay it up, you know, because they're going to change the way that they're playing. Like they're going to come after you. They're going to foul you more. They're going to hope that the rest don't call it. they're just going to go for it. They're going to shoot it quicker.

Can we get the rebounds? You know, because they're shooting it quicker. Like all of those things. Play forward. I think that's what I kept saying. Play forward. Take it when it's there.

And, you know, the guys ended up doing that. And again, the parts of the story that aren't told enough are, it wasn't like you hit a miracle shot. Yeah. Right? It wasn't like some things that go,

you got a crazy call. It was a no doubt. It was a blowout. What are those moments like as you're looking up and no, it's because I'll just, and I know again, I understand you've been gracious for your time. My first game, calling a game in the NCAA tournament, or second, excuse me, was Southern against Gonzaga. And Gonzaga ended up losing the next game to Wichita.

But it was tied or Southern was leading with four minutes to go. And I'm sitting there with Spiro D. us and we're sitting there going, holy shit. Like, we're going to call the first and 16. And, you know, Southern's got this incredible band, but it's in Salt Lake City. And suddenly there's like 16,000 southern fans. Like, what is going on? Right?

Right. Yeah. So what are those, what's that, what are those minutes like? It's like five minutes to go. You're up 15 on Virginia. No one's ever done it before. You're kicking their ass. They're chasing you around.

Like, what is, it's out of body experience. What is what what what is that like? I mean, honestly, you're coaching the game between me and you know, it wasn't anything crazy, you know, like you're in the game. You're a player like you've coached to, you know, it's like you're just trying to get to the end, you know, you're trying to do your best for your team to get to the end. Run that clock.

Run that clock. Hurry up. You're a nervous wreck. Yeah, you're a nervous wreck. You're nervous that, you know, the fouls are going to start because at the end of games like that. They start driving to the basket over and over again. I was worried we were going to stop the clock every time, you know, with fouls and they were going to shoot.

It was going to be a parade of the free throw line. And so, you know, I learned long ago. Dad used to always start looking at the, when he had leads, he'd start looking at the, all right, well, what do I need to get to, all right? And they can't get to, you know what I mean? From a number standpoint. And so that was why I just encouraged him to keep trying to score if it's there, you know, I take it when it's there.

Because we were, we were clearly shooting. it well. So there was no reason to not not do that. But you know, it all hit me as soon as we let that the clock clock go, shot clock go. We had a shot clock violation and it was just like a wave of emotions. It was kind of like, wow, this thing really happened. Holy cow. What now?

How'd you can play the next game? I mean, you know, I wrote on the board at the end of that game. I went in there. I wrote zero and 135, right? And I Xed out the zero and I wrote one. And I said, you guys are the one.

And then below that I wrote zero and zero. And I said, wouldn't it be a shame, all right? If we were still thinking about being the one up here and this one and 135, one, yeah, one and one 35.

And we didn't take advantage of the zero and zero, the first 16th's opportunity. All right, there's a responsibility that goes without. And so let's all focus for the next two days and do our best, you know, to play our best, you know, give our best from a preparation standpoint, do our best with the distractions while still having fun with it and go for it. And the guys did that. You know, we were in the game. We couldn't score a basket, but neither could Kansas State. And so it was a, you know, it was a knockdown drag out to the end. I think,

we had 18 chances, you know, to take the lead in that game. And we weren't able to do it. But one of the coolest moments for me was before the game ever started, you know, I'm in the locker room. And you know how it is you're, you talk to your team and then they go out. And I was in the locker room by myself. And, you know, it was probably a minute and a half after they left where I could hear the entire arena go berserk.

And I knew exactly what it was. This group of guys that nobody cared about, they were going bananas for them. And so that made me happy without a doubt. Okay, so now we're a couple years removed. And now you're, you were the one seat. You were the big dog. Yeah. And you got upset.

Yeah. And the problem with UMBC is you're not going to get a chance. to go back to the tournament because that's just not the way the conference is viewed. Yeah. Has there in the couple of days since you lost, has there been a moment of I should have taken one of those big jobs? No, not at all, because I love this, you know, I love this place. You know, I love everything about it, you know, but I understand what it is.

I understand how hard it is, you know, at this level. But, you know, this team, I told my team after we lost the other day, no one can ever take away. You won a regular season championship. That's not easy to do. That hadn't been done here since 2008. Even the team that went on to beat Virginia didn't do that. And so they have a lot to be proud of,

especially in a year where there were so many other obstacles outside of basketball that they had to navigate just to be able to have a chance at. And so, no, I'm thankful for the opportunity to coach at UMBC. I love the school. I love the people here. you know, I understand, you know, what it is. You have to win in March, you know, and that's what you sign up for.

And the pressures of that, you know, it's, it's so rewarding, but it can be heartbreaking at the same time, like what we're experiencing right now. It's like you're numb for two days, you know, you don't even want to watch another game because you put so much into it. But, you know, it is what it is. That's why March Madness is March Madness. Last thing. Will you secretly cheer against 16 scenes?

So that you're the only one. My wife will. My wife definitely. But no, I don't. I didn't want to. I'll tell you what. If Virginia is a one seat again, I know they won't be this year or whether they were the other year.

I've definitely not cheering against them. I don't want them to have that experience. I don't, once is plenty. What was that experience like? to watch them win the national championship, just a year after you guys did what you did. No, it was tremendous. I mean, it was extremely exciting for me

because, you know, we were part of a part of their story. You know, and, you know, it's really neat. We had our own story, but they, you know, we were part of theirs as well, which were the two schools, a place where I grew up, you know, I'm forever connected to that, you know, which is pretty neat. And I know it wasn't a good.

memory, but it turned out to be a good memory for Virginia basketball and Virginia fans because it led them to a national championship, which is what it's all about. I can't tell you how appreciative I am your time, putting up with some technical difficulties. I know you got to go. Let's catch up in person very, very show. Thanks so much for taking the time. Awesome. Thank you.

Thanks for having me. My best to your family. Same to you. Well, I knew you would appreciate it. It was long. It was thoughtful. And I would hope you would, one, download a podcast, a download, subscribe, rate us, write a review. Doesn't that be about me?

You can hate me. I mean, I don't hate you. Write a review. And I think that that helps us in some way or some form. But more than anything, pass it on to a friend. There's some great tidbits about coaching. There's some great tidbits about life. And I think the passion that Ryan lives with, the realness with how he coaches kids and how he's handled success and failure is nothing short of remarkable.

And I'm so glad he got a chance to tell that story at this time. It's like after when, anybody can tell a story after win, man, you can't shut me up after win. What do you do after loss? There's more great ones to come. I'm so glad you download it. And I hope you subscribe, review, Ray, listen to the Doug Gottlieb show daily. Thanks a bunch for listening. I'm Doug Gottliebiz. This is awful.

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Give with meaning. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season.

And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was part of it. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs.

This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Kunky, his best friend and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports.

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