The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Best Of - Pacers-Thunder STUNNING Nick, Kevin Durant's TOP 3 landing spots, LeBron vs. Kobe "not close"

Episode Date: June 15, 2025

Nick Wright reacts to Tyrese Haliburton and the Indiana Pacers' stunning performance vs. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and the Oklahoma City Thunder. What has surprised Nick most about this NBA Finals series so far? Later, Nick breaks down the top three landing spots for Phoenix Suns star Kevin Durant including the New York Knicks. Finally, Nick explains why LeBron James vs. Kobe Bryant is not even a debate when it comes to all-time rankings. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Enjoy. You said the Pacers had to win this game, and they went out there and win it. Their role players showed up. OKC's role players did little for them, shave and kind of underwhelmed. a little bit. Do you think that that performance is replicable for the Pacers? Well, what I think is this. I think we have something now that I never thought we were going to have, which is a real series that could go either way. And I, I'm shocked Indy won that game. And I know I shouldn't be because, again, five and a half point underdogs win all the time.

It's not like, and they were at home. They were at home. And I understand all of that. I really do. And if I, the only solace I have, I suppose, from a personal perspective in all, you know, my terrible poker results from last week in Vegas is,

had I not had terrible poker results last week in Vegas, I almost assuredly would have, fired considerably on the thunder to win this basketball game. Because I have bought in. I have bought in that the 2025 Oklahoma City Thunder, as far as singular seasons, are an all-time team. That Indiana did not have an answer for Shea. And as we talked about, I think pretty intelligently on Tuesday,

It is just so hard unless you have the best defense in basketball to win a championship if your best player is a pass first guy. If he's not a just go get you a bucket guy. And we talked about it on Tuesday that the greatest point guards we've seen in the history of this league aside from Magic Johnson were not able to. crack that code if they were listen step did it obviously he's not a past first guy Zeke did it he could have scored more but also had the best defense in basketball but Jason kid or Chris Paul or hell Oscar Robertson before he had a keem or bob

Coozy before he had Russell Steve Nash those guys it's just so hard because you are going to come again across a team whose best guy can't go get a bucket whenever he wants and how do you answer that and again I'm not acting as if the Pacers have won the series I am acting as if however we now have a series and now all of a sudden the Pacers have a game to play with the Pacers de Manzee go into game four and I'm sure they won't view it this way but it's a house money game they go into game four saying all right if we win we have a vice grip on this series and if we lose we already know we can win in oklahoma city and unlike game one which you give the pacer's credit for their heart and their grit and all of that game one however, let's be honest, felt fluky.

It felt like, okay, Oklahoma City took their eye off the ball for just a minute and the pacer stormed through that door. I can say it felt fluky if this is what they do. When they get in those late game situations and they can overcome it. I think they just did it again. So, but that's not what they did here. Oh, yeah. Not in this game. I'm talking about game one.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So here, here's why I'm saying, It didn't feel fluky that they hit, you know, that Halliburton hit the game winner. That didn't feel fluky. What felt fluky was the fact that Oklahoma City led seconds into the game. The Pacers never closed the gap that it was a 14 point game in the fourth quarter. and it was,

and all of a sudden, the Pacers have a chance to steal it. And you're right, that was the fourth time they've done that in these playoffs. I get that. So maybe Fluky's the wrong word. Chiefs.

But not, they weren't going to win four games that way. They were not going to win four games where Oklahoma City dominates the game and then they come roaring back. Like they've won one game a series. that way. And then game two, when Oklahoma City dominated from start to finish, that felt to me much more indicative of the game we were going to get, where the Pacers are good, but Oklahoma

City's great. And instead, everything you wanted to see from Indiana, they did. They did bother Shay Moore. Halliburton was more aggressive. Siakum was more efficient and the star of the game. Benedict Mathrin, who has had such an interesting playoffs. So Mathurin who the Pacers beat Demonsie because they never tank, don't have a lot of super high draft picks on their team. And in fact, I think, like, I don't know if it's franchise history like the last 30 years or something, but there's only two guys that they have drafted in the top nine or something. I'm going to get those details a little wrong, but it's about that. Matherin and a kid who's hurt.

And Matherin was kind of, it looked like, oh wait, is he going to be odd man out when in the Cleveland series, game four, He basically gets a DMP coach's decision. Game five, he only plays 11 minutes. Then against the Knicks, game two, 11 minutes, zero points, game three, eight minutes, two points. And it looked like Carlisle was souring on it. And then Mathrin has had in the last six games, three just, Unbelievable stat lines off the bench.

Game four against the Knicks, 12 minutes, 20 points. Game 5 against the Knicks, 25 minutes, 23 points. And then last night, game three against the Thunder, 22 minutes, 27 points. And I'm going to pull it up so we have it exactly. but since he was basically, it looked like, oh man, is Carlisle done with him? In the six games since then, Benedict Matherin has played 106 minutes and scored 93 points. The guy is basically a point a minute over his last six games, none more important or noteworthy than last night when nobody had an answer for him

when he just he was the X factor off the bench for them and all I'm just so yes listen T.J. McConnell did T.J. McConnell did T.J. McConnell

things and he loves getting those steals in the back court. You know, he's just a white man's Jose Alvarado. Like I'm going to do play this scrappy style I'm gonna annoy you he doesn't he doesn't go out of bounds and and trick people like that but he's a pest and one of his steals um the one where he just caught the inbound pass and laid it up was one of the dopest things what that was one of the

coolest mini highlights of the season yeah he just jumped up and grabbed and laid it up right there 100% call okay see off guard a couple times with that yeah and So he made three baskets. I feel like they were. And he had five steals. So T.J. McConnell, off the bench, five steals. Obie Toppin. Off the bench.

Four of five from two. And some big rebounds. And Ben Mathurin, man, nine of 12, got to the free throw line eight times, which is another thing he did against the Knicks. He drew fouls and got to the line. He's plus 16. in 22 minutes. It was okay.

See another thing to have to worry about. A hundred percent. And credit words due to Halliburton. Because Halliburton, the point that I made, now let me just be clear here. My playoff bracket

and my playoff predictions are in shambles. I have been wrong about pre-series picks more this playoffs than any playoffs I can remember. And bet of the year, which we'll get to later, is on life support. It's truly on life support. My in-series analysis has been far better.

And one of the points that I'm, excuse me, I apologize. One of the points I made after game two was the Pacers need to recognize you are not playing a good shot, good shot, great shot team. You are playing a bad shot, decent shot, take the shot. And it felt like Halliburton understood that. That Halliburton, when his teammates go five of 21 from three, when aside from Mathron, nobody hits more than one, three, when aside from Siacum,

none of the other starters really seem like they have it offensively. He understood, I've got to be a little more aggressive looking for my own shot. And he did. Now, the ball was still popping and moving and he still had his 11 assists. And he was a rebound shy of a triple double. But he was a little more aggressive offensively. And here's the other thing the Pacers do. Man, they wear your ass.

out where they are and part of this is because Carlisle trusts the bench like it is remarkable de Manze that in a basketball game that keep in mind I thought the thunder kind of stole the game a sneaky what could have been a sneaky huge moment was the very end of the third quarter when the Pacers are up one with 35 seconds left and Chet gets a dunk and one. Now they're up to McConnell misses a, you know, like a five footer. And then J. Dubb hits a three basically at the quarter buzzer. And it went from, oh, the Pacers are going to have the lead going to. into the fourth to the Pacers are down five going into the fourth and then it didn't you

know they crushed him in the fourth 32 to 18 but the fact that Halliburton in what I felt was a gotta have it must win game that was nip and tuck really throughout he only played 36 minutes like Halliburton has not played 40 minutes in a regulation playoff game this year, which is maybe one of the reasons he's so good at the end, but it's a testament to the Pacers that they're able to do that, have their best player on the bench and not get blown out, and the thunder at the end of this game, we're the tired team.

What a performance. And it is not lost on me. me that I said this was to me the most shocking singular finals game for me since Game 5, 2011 Mavs Heat. And the coach of the team that pulled off that upset and the coach of the team that pulled off this upset are the same guy, Rick Carlisle, who I imagine once the finals are over, the Knicks are going to say, hey, can we interview him? So, Domanzi, read me one of the questions from the chat.

Oh, yeah. So Anonymous 354 says, Nick, what do you think has been the issue with a lot of pundits getting behind the Pacers as a good team? A, Anonymous 3-5-4, I've been there with you. But go ahead. So, listen, I don't think people have denied that the Pacers are a good team. I do think people have, I think it's fair to say people have not acted as if the fact that they have the second best record in basketball since, and I don't think have lost consecutive games since January 1, I think that people have dismissed that maybe a little more than they should have. But I think this was less about a dismissal of Indiana and more about a reverence for OKC,

who if we're being honest, through two games controlled 96% of this series. 96 minutes played. OkC led for 91, was tied for two and a half and trailed for two. Like, that's, but yesterday was not that. Who do you have winning it all? Put your hoops expertise to the test all season long. Draft Kings has been the go-to spot for NBA player props, and that doesn't stop now.

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Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special.

So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. And, well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, hey, Jonas.

And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some

retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

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I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris, every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay. Jenchian win. I mean, she went down to three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface.

Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Yonnas shut down any trade rumors that there were circulating saying that he would like to be in Milwaukee next year and win a championship. So that makes that Katie's sweepstakes much more interesting. and Shams reported that Houston's San Antonio, Miami, Minnesota, and the Knicks are all interested. Which team would you see Katie suiting up for?

And is Yonish just waiting for Katie but pick a team? See where he should go? Yeah, so I'm not ready to say the Yonis thing's done. I don't think the Yonis thing is guaranteed that he's asking for a trade, but I certainly don't think it's guaranteed that he's staying in Milwaukee. But the Yonest trade is going to be more complicated. and in two thirds of the league are going to be interested. There seems to be a lot of smoke surrounding Durant and the Spurs.

That's a fun one that I'm interested in, but I do not think that team can win a championship. I just don't think Wimby is ready yet to be. Durant's goal? What a question. Do you not think it is? I mean, he wants to go play in San Antonio. It doesn't necessarily seem like it is. I don't think that he thinks that he's the missing piece from San Antonio getting to a championship.

Well, and to be fair, we don't know where he wants to go play. But this, listen, if it were to be San Antonio, but it seems like, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, I mean, listen, the Spurs, it's not like if he were to go to Miami and pick Miami, then I would say he's not that worried about winning a title because they can't win. Right. You know, with respect to them, you'd have to give up something for him, even if you got hero and BAM.

That team's not good enough. The Spurs, Castle's good. Deerrin Fox is really good. Wimby has unlimited upside. And if Durant still feels like, and I'm the, you know, fifth best player in the NBA, even if he's closer to the 15th best player in the NBA. It's not like he'd be going somewhere where they have no shot whatsoever. So the spurs to me are interesting,

but it wouldn't put them over the top. I am those other three teams, you could maybe convince me on any of them that, man, that team could win the title. if you took away Jalen Green's minutes and gave them to Kevin Durant, they beat the Warriors. Like, that's not even to me a question. They beat the Warriors and then they have a real, you know what I mean? A real shot next year, Shingoon a little better. You know you're going to have a great devens with Udoca.

Like that to me, that team is really interesting. Now that's the perfect Yonis team, but Houston is really interesting. Anthony Edwards plus Durant. If Ant can level up just a touch, that one's interesting. And the Knicks, I don't think the Knicks necessarily would be better than the Knicks with Durant wouldn't necessarily be better than Houston or Minnesota with Durant. but because one's in the east and ones in the west, like the Knicks would be a really fascinating one. And one that I would be really interested in seeing how it plays out. I do think KD has at least one more elite year left in the tank.

and I also think people need to understand because of his contract, he's not easy to trade. So like the idea, I know that Shams has said or Shams has said there are wild card suitors. You got to find wild card suitors that aren't second apron and can get the salaries together and all of that. And so I would imagine just my guess that one of the wild card suitors is the clippers, that'd be a very hard trade to pull off. And that's one I wouldn't like to see. Yeah, I've seen Durant with Hardin. I'm not.

And like, Kauai's an injury risk, Durant's an injury risk. I'd like to see Durant be the old vet on a young team. Like, you know what I mean? I think that would be, I think that would be. fun but Durant is 100% getting traded. Yannis might get traded and then we'll see what the other moves are. All right. Do we have a couple listener questions, DeMonsei, we can get too quickly before I got to get out of here? Yeah, Wilkich asks, which is more likely Thunder coming back or DeMonte's rec league team turning it around? What's the answer? I'd honestly say DeMonsei's Rek League team

turning it around. Wow. I think that the Pacers, I just think the Pacers are going to win the series, man. That would be great. Can I just say something else? And I'm going to bring, I'm going to bring my,

our pod set up with us to Miami. And if the Pacers win game for Friday night, I'll do sometimes Saturday morning, some emergency pod type of thing. it would be awesome if the Pacers went. I'm like I don't think they're going to, but it would be awesome. Joseph says, what's up with the gun show today, Damase, looking all jacked. You know what's so funny?

And this is a compliment, DeMazze. Don't take this the wrong way. I actually was thinking the opposite. I was like, you need to hit those push-ups a little bit more, man. You're not as. I do, though. 100%. No, for real.

Like, again, like, I mean, you're in great shape and a great athlete. But just for, like, when I. Saw you in your jersey. I'm like, oh, DeMontze is a little skinnier than he was a few months ago. Appreciate you, Ethan. Or no, not Ethan, Joseph. Sorry. But.

All right. Nick Wright Muse. What did he say, DeMazze? A quick grammar check for Nick. I know Nick will appreciate this. He said change tack a couple of times down on first things first in the herd. And it's changed tack. Really?

It's so that you. Thank you. I do appreciate that. I have said they need to change their tact T-A-C-T, and he's saying that the phrase is it needs to change tack, which is T-A-C-K. I didn't know that. I'll look up why that is.

I had no idea. Yeah, LeBron, so it might be the NBA's leading score, but what does that mean when you got no bag? On mine in the game, LeBron said I see all the time. I'll be on social media and like LeBron has no bag. LeBron has no bag, and I'm sitting here. like I got 50 billion points. I thought he should have said I've got 50 billion chips, like word playing on like a bag of chips.

But to LeBron be the undisputed goat if he's got no bag? Okay. So let me ask you this. What do you think having a bag means? Because it's this is not an agreed upon definition. And I think this is an important piece to it. So I'm curious where you what you think. Okay.

having a bag is is james hardin that's like uh like step curry just a just a just to go to move or a or a bag of moves that you can go to to to break the defender down i just think it's offense it's offensive game i don't think it's like anything outside of that no so it's definitely and it's definitely related to scoring right like i think everybody agrees on that so here is what i think is fair and true and here is what I think is just nonsense, right? So I think, what do you think the weakest part of LeBron's offensive game is? Because I think it's very clear. I think there is one thing that offensively he is average at. I would say he's just league average. His stop, go, stop, start. Well, maybe we're

saying the same thing. Just general ball handling. Oh, okay. He's not an elite ball handler. And so if people, if by bag, they mean like a Kyrie style, like 15 dribble move,

then sure. Then yeah, LeBron's not going to be one of your top 30 picks of people when it comes to ball handling. Like the, he, I think Durant at seven feet tall, might be a better ball handler.

Like I do. And so like that is to me, that's a, if that's what people are talking about, that's actually accurate. Now, to LeBron's point, is it possible that not just kids on Twitter, but also retired NBA players on horrific podcasts. wildly overrate the bag if to LeBron's point he's got 50,000 points and doesn't have one, then yeah, then maybe it's not quite as important as you think. So if we're just saying bag is ball handling, then it's probably true. Here is where I think it gets a little though misconstrued or misconstrued. leading if by bag people are talking about ability to score from anywhere on the court at any

time LeBron's as good as anyone in the history of the league being a 3 and this is where and this is again where we will simply run into folks who some I'm sure are in the chat right now who are going to try to deuce a lot of mental gymnastics around the numbers and the facts, which is, now, LeBron early in his career didn't, you know, was not a good jump shooter. But the benefit of playing 22 years is even if you weren't good at something for the first seven, there were 15 years you were good at it. So like, be like, oh, LeBron couldn't shoot, By year 9, he was literally 41% from 3.

His third year in Miami. I guess that would have been year 10. And then, you know, that was year 10 for him, was still the first half of his career. In Miami, he developed his three point shot. His second in Cleveland, he developed his mid-range shot, particularly the turnaround. and since then has been the idea that he's gotten his 50,000 points by putting his head down

and just go into the rim a hundred times a game. Again, that's just belied by the data. And by the data, I mean, the games are on TV. You can see where the shots are made all of it. That he has the same shot. People talk about him as if he has the same shot chart as Shaq did. That it was layups and pre throws, dunks and free throws. But this is where now we are, and this is why, and I,

you always have to be sensitive here because of obviously the tragedy surrounding his passing. But the juxtaposition of Kobe versus LeBron as far as what the actual truth is and was versus how they are remembered has. always been very interesting because if you ask a hundred NBA fans who was the better three point shooter Kobe or LeBron the vast majority are going to say Kobe Bryant despite the fact that any possible way you slice it it's not true. And I will, and that's, you know, that's bag for some. It's like your ability, like I said, to score from all three levels. So Kobe for his career was 32.9% from three.

LeBron for his career, 34.9% from three. Oh, well, Nick, Kobe shot way more. No, he didn't. Kobe for his career, 4.1 attempts per game. LeBron for his career, 4.7 attempts per game. Well, Kobe was better in the playoffs. No. Kobe for his career from three, his three point percentage is 33.1% on four attempts per game.

LeBron for his career in the playoffs is 33%. percent on 4.1 attempts per game. Well, oh, wait, hold on. I got that last one exactly wrong. I apologize because I read Kobe's, I read Kobe's stat twice. Kobe for his career in the playoffs, 33.1% on four attempts per game, 4.0 exactly. LeBron for his career in the playoffs, 33.3%. Essentially the same.

LeBron a tick better, but on 4.9 attempts per game. Oh, well, Nick, and this is one you'll hear when people are really at this point grasping. Nick, the game's changed so much, even though LeBron and Kobe played in the league together for more than a decade. Okay. So if you just take LeBron's career and stop it when Kobe retired, Kobe, again for his career, 33.1% on 4.0 attempts per game. Look, that's for the playoffs and for the regular season, Kobe, 32.9 on 4.1 attempts per game, basically identical for Kobe, regular season or playoffs. He retired in 2016.

LeBron, his rookie year through the date of Kobe's retirement, the exact same number of three point attempts per game, 4.0. And Kobe's 32.9, LeBron 34.0. And so this isn't a, I'm not trying to do like a Kobe versus LeBron thing. Because I think that's a silly, really untenable argument as much as people try to make it one. The reason I am mentioning that is because that is as clear and as clean and as matter of fact as data can get and people simply will say i do not believe that that's not how i remember it which is that and the the people in the chat can get as angry as they want and say

that's longevity even though it's per game that that's a different era even if we just go year for year. In their mind's eye, Kobe was a dominant three point assassin. And in their mind's eye, LeBron was just putting his shoulder down and getting to the rim. Despite the fact that at the date of Kobe's retirement, he averaged the exact same number of three point attempts per game as LeBron did and shot him worse. It's just what the facts were. So when LeBron is talking about, I get on social media and say LeBron doesn't have a bag or this or that. It's because so much of that is, it's not revisionist history. It's just absolute fake news, so to speak, that people will believe to their dying breath.

Like, one of the number one questions people will ask. is, okay, so whatever, you're going to say LeBron's better than Kobe because of, you know, he played longer or whatever it is. However, but one shot life on the line. And then you tell him, well, playoff game winners like we just talked before. LeBron took was 8 of 20. Kobe was 4 of 18. People will simply say, I don't believe you. Even though it is what it is. And so Now, Dr. Frank says in the chat, but would you say Kobe had a deeper bag than LeBron? I think there's an argument there. Yes.

There, a hundred because I, Kobe was a better mid range shot maker than LeBron. And I think Kobe was a better ball handler than LeBron. That one I agree with there. Yeah. Yeah. On the bag. You agree. Yeah.

Yeah. There, there is, but the, that then circles back. to the more I think interesting question is but then what does it really matter except for again to be fair because I am I got to tell you among other things I'm the most I'm the fairest arguer in sports media because I will often make an argument and while I'm making it because it's how my brain works think like oh does this contradicts something you were make an argument you're making about something else and how do you reconcile those two so while how deep your bag is might be overrated when it comes to your

effectiveness as a player as evidenced by our discussion about why people were more maybe attracted to Russell Westbrook's style of play than Shea Gilgis Alexander's how deep your bag is certainly has to do that has an impact on popularity grabbing the casual fan highlights things like that that part there is a real impact hey guys it's us the Jonas brothers I'm Joe I'm Kevin and I'm Nick and guess what we created our own podcast called hey Jonas we invented a podcast well we didn't invent it we just contributed to us people to do podcasts we get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it,

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