The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Best of The Herd for May 05, 2020

Episode Date: May 5, 2020

Michael Jordan is being authentic, the sports media shouldn't ask for anything different from himOBJ needs to lower his expectations for 2020Trevor Lawrence is a much better prospect than Joe Burrow Guests: JA Adande, former Chicago and Los Angeles Sports WriterPenny Hardaway, Memphis Head Coach and Magic PG Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This is the best of the herd with Colin Cowherd on Fox Sports Radio. Ah, here we go on a Tuesday live in Los Angeles. This is The Herd. Wherever you may be in, however you may be listening, IHeart Radio, Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and Sirius XM Channel 83, the former Miami Dolphin, pro bowler Brian Cox, one hour from now, Jets, Bears, Pates, Pats, and Dolphins. They'll be joining us. Joy Taylor, how are you? I'm great.

You know what I watched yesterday? The Alex Smith documentary. How is that? It's pretty fascinating. It's kind of hard not to root for him after watching it. And his leg, if you have a light stomach, it's not for you. Yeah. I have not watched the injury.

I have saw Joe Thaisman's live once. I never watched it again. I hate watching athletes get hurt severely. Oh, I do too. I never rewatch. Oh, I can't. But the comeback for him is really, I mean, he's at 17 surgeries. It's incredible.

So is the Michael Jordan documentary. I want to lead with this this morning. Everybody's enjoying it, except for, you know, the media, where some media people have taken shots at it. The latest is Mike Sealski, who, writes for the Philadelphia Inquirer, big column yesterday, which a lot of sports writers said, here, here, you are so accurate. Sports writers, no more than everyone, and I'm glad you're unveiling the truth. The headline here is the last dance. Michael Jordan shows us who he really is.

Yeah, it's a documentary. It's not a movie. It's not fiction. Michael is showing us who he is, which is awesome and competitive and relentless and feisty as hell. And sometimes he can be a little mean, scary. So are hedge fund guys. So are politicians. Mean happens all the time. In his opening paragraph, it says it's become harder to separate the entertainment and nostalgic value of the series from Jordan's agenda.

Not really, not for anybody. Six million people watch every week and everybody loves it. from his desire to preserve his legacy, imagine that, settle scores and rub his status and greatness in the faces of his real and perceived rivals. One in particular, Jerry Krauss. The Bulls' GM for 18 years has served a convenient function throughout the Last Dance. He's been the series' primary source of narrative tension. Yeah.

Because the overwhelming story of the Last Dance is the, attention, that's why it's called the last dance. You do get the entire series is about this season. And they go back and pluck different, you know, dramas and controversies throughout the course of Michael's greatness. But it's called the last dance. And it's called the last dance because the Jerry Krause GM here, who you're defending, who has passed away, rest in peace, told Phil Jackson, 82 and no, I'm not bringing you back to break up the greatest dynasty ever. The entire documentary is called The Last Dance, which is what Phil wrote on a binder and gave to the team before the season because he told him, I'm not coming back. Let's call this the last dance.

So yes, the tension that Jerry Krause created is the title of the documentary. That's why there is narrative tension centered around James. Jerry Kraus. That's what the story's about. So that's what they keep talking about. And Jerry created that. By the way, the writer also says there is something cheap and unseemly and quite telling about the inclination to continue bullying a man who isn't around to defend himself.

No, Michael was tough on Jerry Krause when he lived. So why should he be inauthentic and lie? Sports writers are looking, some of them, for soft, happy endings to this. Or a new Michael. Michael has been completely authentic. He hates Isaiah. Did then, does now. Doesn't back away from it.

Michael Jordan, business first over politics. Then and now. Doesn't back away from it. Michael Jordan, gambled then and now. Doesn't back away from it. Critiques of Jerry Krause. Ripped him then, rips him now. Sorry, this is not a movie.

Where the great villain learns about himself. And by the end of the movie, he's a better person. that's called a movie. This is a documentary. Documentaries are supposed to be real and authentic looks at the primary story. Jerry Krause was going to blow up the best team ever. Now, it may have been Jerry Reinsdorf, as Charles Barkley said yesterday, very may well have been Reinsdorpe's mission to be cheap,

but Jerry Krause was such insecure, as this writer does point out later in his article, Jerry was insecure. He was a kid that got picked on. He could never get over it. Steve Kerr acknowledged during this. And Steve Kerr's a nice guy. He's like, I was there. Jerry Krause couldn't get out of his own way.

So when I read these articles about this is unveiling a new Michael, no, it's not. It's delivering the exact Michael. Everything I thought about Michael before, I think about him now. I think he's relentless. I think he's great. I think he's incredibly competitive. He's intense. he's an alpha male, and if he didn't like you, he'd confront you.

He didn't back away from Isaiah. He didn't back away from Jerry Krause. He wasn't passive-aggressive. He didn't have a burner phone. He'd go right after you. And that's why we love him. So this is not a movie. The Americas made their mind up.

They like Michael more than an insecure general manager, who may have been in his private life a wonderful guy. but there were so many missteps by Jerry Krause telling Phil Jackson, 80-0, you're not back. Can you imagine if Bob Myers had told Steve Kerr that going into last year before's win for the Warriors? Let's not make Jerry Krause a victim here. Everybody in this documentary has come out just like we thought. Now, I do think Phil Jackson, who I had a great deal of respect for, I've got even more for him now. I'm like, there's so many spinning plates.

I always thought Phil was the best coach in the NBA I'd ever seen. Now he's the best psychologist in America and the best coach. So I do think all this stuff with Phil, I've kind of been blown away by his balancing act of Rodman and Krauss and Reinsdorf and Pippen. And it's his maturity and his emotional discipline has blown me away. Everybody else is landing exactly as I thought. In fact, I didn't ever cover the Bulls directly. I wish I would have. I know people that did, and I've had people on that did.

But I didn't cover them directly. But you didn't have to be a Bulls insider to know Jerry Krauss and Jerry Reinsdorf were not ideal that Michael and Pippen and Phil were often working against them. And that's been portrayed. That's not bullying. That's not cheap. I mean, if I struggled with somebody my entire life and my career, thank God I haven't. But if they do a documentary someday and it will be low budget if they did on my career, I would tell you exactly what I felt then and now.

I wouldn't soft pedal it. If I didn't like somebody, there's a couple sportscasters I don't like. I don't like them now and I'd tell you later. I didn't like them. That would be, that would be. Now, if you gave the script to Hollywood, they'd have a happy ending. But that's not what we're doing here. I think it's been a great documentary.

I think sometimes when they go back in time of the dates, it's a little confusing. for me as a viewer. I think some of that is, Jason Hare, the documentarian, who I had in my podcast last week, the guy is rushed. They literally started this thing airing it and they weren't finished. They're still editing it. I mean, they're not done with this thing. It's a rush job. It is. They're having, they're not, they don't get nearly as much time. You don't want to start a documentary, start airing it and you haven't finished it. I mean, that's just not the way it works, right? You want it done. You get production finished. But this idea that this is, we're all struggling with how brutal and ruthless Mike is.

I don't think anybody I know struggling with it. I think it is absolutely, I think I respect Michael Moore because he's not a BSer. And maybe we're softer in society. Maybe we're all more evolved now and we should be nicer. But it's funny. Fans say and the numbers illustrate people used to like the NBA more in Michael Jordan's era. It was tougher. The players were older.

They were veterans. And research shows people liked them. And people still buy more Michael's shoes than LeBron, Steph, Kevin Durant's shoes combined. But part of that, like, I don't think the media really quite gets, we like the alpha. Like, I love the fact that Michael won't back down from his gambling, his Isaiah hate, his Republicans buy sneakers to, and calling out the management. That's part of what I like. I'm not struggling at all with it. It makes me like it more.

For years and years, people said, you're an MJ hater. And I'm like, no, but he's not perfect. This is what I said on the air for years. I know a lot of guys that covered Michael? He's not perfect. And you know what we're seeing during this documentary? He's not perfect. He's real.

Michael is real. He can be a real pain in the butt. He can be real vindictive. He can be real petty. he can sometimes be real mean, but he's real, and I'll take that every day of the week instead of the social media posturing I see from everybody else. One more herd? The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the IHeart radio app. Search herd to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

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Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit. suit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're

still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro.

Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me. Join me. Kier Gains is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What?

Come out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam?

It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too Steve Nash will get that thing that man, hell get the flying, he running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball like, after you go through a training camp with that I said, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court

and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a critic of OBJ, and in New York, the media was critical of him, they thought he was into OBJ more than winning. I think he's really talented, Sometimes I think he's high maintenance.

I'm not a huge fan of high maintenance people. So I have kind of a confirmation bias against anybody that I think is needy. They just wear me out. Cam Newton wears me out. I probably never gave him a fair shot, but OBJ sometimes, same thing. So yesterday he comes out, talks about his body, how it got beaten down last year. And he has struggled with injuries. You know, he's a guy out that'll run routes over the middle.

He gets clobbered. He gets hurt. He's been injured. It's part of a real story, a real narrative now about him. but he says this now is my time. This is probably going to be one of my best seasons. I'm bigger, stronger, this is my time. And my first thought is, okay, the critics of OBJ are going to say, oh, it's always your time.

It's not our time. It's not us. It's not we. It's not team. It's I, me. Look at my Bentley. Look at my watches. And even his quote now, it's my time.

It's actually not. It's Kevin Stavansky's time. It's his time to put in a new system. There's two things here that need to be considered and discussed with OBJ saying it's his time. Number one, Cleveland has, in my opinion, the deepest arsenal outside of maybe the Kansas City Chiefs offensively in the NFL. They got two of everything. So if OBJ thinks he's going to have 95 catches and a dozen touchdowns, he's delusional. He's not going to get those touches.

Number two is Kevin Stefansky likes to run the football. Kirk Cousins was 24th in pass attempts. That's with Adam Thielen and Stefan Diggs. Cleveland also has two excellent running backs. Kevin Stefansky's also in a division with Baltimore and Pittsburgh's pass rush. He's not going to put Baker Mayfield in the crosshairs 34 times and pass attempts. Cleveland's building a run-first offense. Here's something else.

Cleveland brought in an excellent tied-in, Austin Hooper from Atlanta. Last year in 13 games, he had 75 catches. He's an 80-85 catch potential. tied end. He's a volume tied end. Jarvis Landry, even in the mayhem last year in Cleveland, had like 80, 85 catches. In Miami, it was 90. We suspect he'll get closer to his career average, 90. So Austin Hooper's going to get 75 to 80. Landry's going to get, you know, 85 to 90, 95, and they've got two excellent running backs and a new coach who likes to run the football. If OBJ thinks he's getting a bunch of touches and a bunch of touchdowns, he doesn't, he's

He's off. And happiness is all about expectations. The data tells you this coach runs the football. Austin Hooper is going to be a sponge in the middle of that defense. This is a new offense. And also, I would say this, Cleveland's going to be better. They're not going to be trailing in all their games like last year. If you look at Cleveland's schedule, there's a lot of wins on that schedule.

They're not going to be throwing the ball in the fourth quarter in a lot of games. I think Cleveland's going to be a nine-win football team this year. Maybe 10, 9. I think it's a real football team. Just less chaos. But if you lead late in games, Kevin Stefansky is not going to be dropping Baker Mayfield back to pass. So happiness is about expectations.

And OBJ may think it's his time, but I think it's Kevin Stefanski's time. And frankly, if you ask me who else's time it was, I'd say Baker Mayfield. He's going to win the coach's approval, or he's gone. and he's not going to win it throwing to OBJ. He's going to win at winning games. And you're going to win games in this league if you have a running game.

You've got to have some semblance of a running game. This was the first year New England couldn't run the football. It was their worst year in years. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the IHeard Radio app. Director of Sports Journalism at the prestigious Northwestern Medell School of Journalism, Jay Adande has the rare distinction of covering Michael Jordan for the Chicago Sun Times and then the late Kobe Bryant for the Los Angeles Times.

And I believe he's the only sports writer in America who ever had that distinction. There was a lot of national reporters or columnists who could, you know, on an individual game cover them. But it's a very unique situation. He's joining us now sponsored by Mercedes-Benz the best or nothing. So let's start first of all, Jay. Thank you for coming on. Let's start with Michael.

And so I imagine, as you watch this documentary, it is to some degree some confirmation of stuff you already kind of knew, right? It is. It hasn't been revelatory for me. First of all, nice to be on with you, Colin. It hasn't been revelatory for me or for, I think, any of the people that you see quoted in there or who had been around. but what it is is for everyone else to get a chance to see it. And the one thing I do appreciate is hearing Michael discuss it with the benefit of perspective and, you know, hearing him look back and just seeing how unwilling he is to let certain things go, in particular the grudge with Isaiah Thomas. But you see what resonates with him. You see what sticks with him.

But I think it's a chance for other people to see. It's funny. Some of these stories that he's telling, in particular of the time he went to go to retrieved Dennis Rodman when Rodman was AWOL. I had heard those stories before. I think it's fun that now, okay, now without being discussed publicly, we can all share in these stories. You know, I defend him on the gambling issue.

I said, listen, me gambling $100 is Michael gambling $50,000 on a golf game. He is a relentless competitive guy. And, you know, it shows him with security guards, you know, flipping quarters up against the wall. He didn't hide from it. That's who he is. He let himself be miced when he golfed, miced when he was flipping coins up against the wall.

You know, the gambling issues, again, that was pretty much understood. Do you think he addressed those appropriately? I think so. It's weird. He doesn't come off as super convincing. I believe him, but just his tone when he's defending himself

against certain things is weird. And maybe in part because he's not in practice of having to defend himself. He wasn't in that position a lot throughout his career. You know, all the exalted Michael Jordan. He didn't have to be defensive. And so he comes off as a little defensive here, one of the rare times that he's being asked to do so.

But you got at it. The desire that he has, has anyone been as driven by money as Michael Jordan? The drive that he had to become the most marketed athlete in the world, certainly the most marketed athlete in team sports. American team sports, unprecedented levels of endorsement dollars for an African-American team sport player, had the chance to get the highest salary in NBA history twice. It comes back for the Bulls in the late 90s and has a $30 million contract and a $36 million

contract. And that was important. And it had been important to him for a while. Magic Johnson, while covering the 93 finals for NBC, would sit around and chat with the media. and he told us if one thing Michael hasn't had is that distinction of being the highest paid player in the game. And that was something that he'd wanted for a long time, wasn't able to finally get it until 96. And so you saw Michael's desire just to have money at all costs. And it wasn't about the need for the money when it came to, you know, tossing quarters against the security guys for 20 bucks.

But it was just desired to get your money, to beat you by taking your money. I had Charles Barkley on yesterday, Jay Adonda, joining us, and I said, listen, as an African-American, you can have an opinion on this, and mine doesn't really count as much. I see it from the outside. I said, I do think we ask so much of our athletes and so many have to overcome situations in their life that by the time they get to their professional status, I just appreciate them. I'm not going to hold them accountable for great political savvy or great, you know, business acumen. I just appreciate. I can separate, first of all, art from artist. We're all flawed.

But I think it's unfair, looking back, that we asked Michael to be an activist or care about something politics, which he had almost no interest in. But that's my perspective. What is your perspective on that? I've always wished and wanted and hoped that he would do more, but I don't think it's a major detraction. One thing I was thinking, okay, what if he had? endorsed Hart again. Would that have made a difference? Would that have changed enough minds to get him elected? He did support him and make donations to his campaign. Yes, he did. So do you think

that matters more than his endorsement? You know, LeBron James endorsed Hillary Clinton in 2016, and Donald Trump still won in the state of Ohio. So part of it is what difference would have made. Also, I don't look for our athletes, our entertainers, to provide. leadership and that. That's not their area of expertise. Thank you. And especially today when we have an African-American former president. I'm interested in his

political opinions, and Barack Obama's endorsements, those carry much more weight to me than what an athlete or entertainer does. And also, what if he'd been outspoken, but we disagreed with him? That's right. There's no guarantee that

people are going to say what you want them to say. So I think what it was was that we wanted them to they think. You know, it's funny. Like, I look at, I look at Mark Hamill's, uh, tweet on social media, and he's very politically outspoken. And I think like, yeah, this is cool. You know, Luke Skywalker agrees with me, but what difference does it make ultimately? You know, it maybe makes me feel better. I think it makes people feel better if the people that they look up to have, hold the same views as them, right? And I think that's what we want. Yeah. But all it does is make us feel better. I'm not sure it makes that much of a difference. And I, I, I do think you can make a difference behind the scenes.

And Michael did do some things behind the scenes. And yes, he could have done more in front of the cameras and spoken out. Maybe he could have spoken out more for people who didn't have the advantages and the luxury that he did. I'm not sure he did that. But I know he did do things to support people who didn't have as much. And, you know, just go to the media guide for the Charlotte Hornets and look at the directory and look at the diversity of the staff that I would say is higher than the typical. professional sports front office. And I think you can say

he's made a difference in that way. Yeah, I've told sports writers or sports media people in my life, Chuck Todd can barely change my mind politically. A sportscaster can't. So you're doing this for an add-a-boy. You're doing this for validation or preening

or projecting on social media. You're not going to change anybody's vote, so don't screw your career up. Jay Adande is joining us. So I want to shift to Kobe now. Did you ever talk to Michael about young Kobe? And what did he say, Jay? I did.

I happened to be in D.C. when Kobe was on one of those stretches, scoring 40 points every game. And I asked Michael about it. This is when Michael was playing for the Wizards. And he said, you know, I've seen him that same desire to separate himself from his peers that I had. You know, the way that I wanted to separate from Clyde Drexler or Charles Barkley, and he wanted to separate from, I forget who he was being compared at the time. maybe Alan Iverson,

Trace McGrady, Vince Carter. And he saw that. And, you know, we've come to learn both from Michael at Kobe's Memorial and Kobe in this documentary. They were able to interview him before he passed away talking about the relationship that they had. And they did have this bond. And part of it was just that ultra-competitive fury, that drive that they had. I used to see Kobe, one time he was injured to 03-0-304, fourth season and he had nothing better to do.

So before the game, he would challenge and bet, you know, members of the media like Michael Thompson, the former Laker who was on the radio broadcast crew, other reporters around. He tried to engage me. I knew better than the bet against COVID-Bry. I was not going to bet against Kobe Bryant. So he did

stuff like, could he make a half-court shot left-handed? His right shoulder was injured. So he was shooting everything left-handed. And could he make one from half-court if he gave him three tries? and, you know, if he did, you had to do like 50 pushups or 100 pushups. You know, they were kind of low stakes. He wasn't going to try to bankrupt you.

He would bet the ball boys in Miami. He'd give him a pair of shoes if they beat him in a shooting contest. If he won, they had to run the steps in the arena. And, of course, he won. And I just remember this grin on his face as the kids running up and down the steps. And COVID says, isn't competition great? It makes everything better. Yeah, a lot of similarities.

Those guys had to turn everything in their face. competition, everything. Yeah. Sometimes our greatest strengths are our personal frailties. And that's the reality of Michael is he was hyper aggressive and sometimes to the point where it could be mean-spirited or overwhelming. You work in a college campus now as the director of sports journalism at Northwestern. You know, when Kobe passed away, your students grew up watching Kobe, but they probably didn't grow up watching MJ. But do you sense? the last dance. Do you sense his influence on your college campus, even for 18, 19, 20, 21-year-olds?

Well, it's certainly been, you walk on campus, kids still born long after Michael's heyday or walking around wearing there are Jordan and really value them. What they're seeing, so Melissa Isaacson and my colleague who covered Michael for the Chicago Tribune in the 90s, she's on our faculty, and her and I do a chat with our graduate sports students, sports journalism students every Sunday during the airings of the last dance. To answer any questions they might have, just tell some behind-the-scenes stories of covering Michael in the Bulls. And I think it's fun for them. And they really are just amazed, I think, at how driven he was, how great he was, how big those Bulls teams were, just everything

they did mattered, how larger than life they seemed, how outrageous Dennis Rodman was, all of it. I think it's difficult to relate. And I said, I kind of completely, compared to when people watch the U 30 for 30 on University of Miami football team, and just how wild and outrageous they were. And you just can't fathom a football team acting that way. You just can't fathom the circumstances of this team, in part because they didn't have social media. Like I think Michael Jordan and the Bulls would have been destroyed by social media and the

internet. It's best for everyone involved. But just the way the coverage that existed before social media and the way that that this team could exist. And they couldn't be demythologized as easily. You know, if we were seeing them, the people were tweeting stuff that I saw Michael going here and doing this.

So there was this mythology around them, and that carries to this day. I could spend an hour talking to you about this. As you know, having been in this business, there are restrictions on time. But I just... Hard out? Is that what you're saying, Tom? We got a hard out.

Well, you do a great job. I'm very, very happy for you. I just find that your perspective on this is fascinating. I'd like to bring you back if I couldn't about a month when this whole thing's over for another opportunity because I feel I'm shortchanging myself, you and the audience here. But congratulations on your career ascension, and I'm very happy that you came on with this today. And keep kicking butt. You're spreading the right messages to those journalism students in a great American city and a university Northwestern.

and please come back on again when this thing is over. I'd love to hear more. I'd love to. And it's not like we're going to have anything else to talk about a month from now. So I'd love to visit you. Great to talk to again, Colin. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific. Joe Burroughs a nice quarterback prospect.

He's not nearly as talented as Justin Fields or certainly Trevor Lawrence, the Clemson quarterback. But it's remarkable to me that because Joe Burrell, on a sense, significantly better team at 23 years old. He'll be 24 soon, beat a 20-year-old Trevor Lawrence with an inferior team. Clemson, LSU was a better team. They had 15 guys drafted, five in the first round, or 14 guys drafted this year, five in the first round. That's insane. And there's an argument to be made, and I don't have a lot of pushback that LSU is the best college football team for a season ever. I don't have a lot of pushback. They beat seven, like, top 25 teams or it's something. I don't

have it in front of me, but it's hard to argue. They beat everybody, and often convincingly. But Mel Kuyper was on an ESPN show this morning, get up, and he's talking about, well, because of that game, you saw it, Burrell's way better than Trevor Lawrence as a prospect. How can you see those two on the field in that final game

and think Joe Burrow wouldn't have gone number one over Trevor Lawrence, considering Lawrence was struggling in the game prior to that against Ohio State until, like I said, Sean Wade left that football game and that game turned. So, I think, you know, no question Joe Burrow would have been a lot, guaranteed to be the number one pick to the Bengals.

Not a single GM, I know thinks that. Not one. Joe Burrell is a fifth-year-old, senior who didn't do anything. Could not beat out J.T. Barrett, Dwayne Haskins. Couldn't beat him out. J.T. Barrett.

It's a scout team guy in the league. Trevor Lawrence was so good that he goes to Clemson. The coaching staff says, Kelly Bryant, you're 12 and 2 last year. Sit down. 19-year-old's better. Trevor's, he's just 20 now.

At 19, he walked into a program that was on fire that had won a national championship. Here's Kelly Bryant goes 12 and 2 the next year. They sat him for a 19-year-old. High school, not close. I saw Trevor Lawrence play in high school. It's bigger than burrow, stronger, better arm, bigger hands, better athlete, everything. This is totally a lot. unfair. As a freshman, Trevor Lawrence, 30 touchdowns, four picks. No redshirt year. Just go play.

It's not close. To say that Burrow beat Trevor Lawrence head to head proves anything, is Nick Foles better than Tom Brady? Because I watch the Super Bowl. What does that prove? Larry Bird's team beat Michael Jordan Lott. So did Isaiah Thomas's team. Doesn't prove anything. Michael was better. So this downgrading Trevor Lawrence because he lost to probably the best college football team ever makes no sense. In fact, there's an article today. Joe Burrow draws concerns from anonymous NFL general manager. He's Alex Smith-like. According to Mike Sando, Mike's really good, the athletic, the GM compared Burrow to Alex Smith.

He said, quote, he doesn't have a lot of power strength in his arm at all. He's a one-year producer. Love his brain, his short accuracy. He's Alex Smith. In fact, Burroughs 6-4-220. Smith was 6-4-2-13. They're even built-alike. I've said Burroughs more Tony Romo,

but I think Romo and Alex Smith, talent-wise, pretty darn close. I'd take Romo by an inch. So I just think it's incredible that because of a singular game, Trevor Lawrence had never lost a football game until LSU. And people say, well, you know, he struggled to get.

Ohio State. Against Ohio State, Trevor Lawrence threw for 260 yards, two TDs, no picks, rushed for 107 yards in a touchdown, and they won. That's struggling? And that was the best Ohio State team people said ever. People were saying that was the best Big Ten team ever. So I think it's incredible how unfair we are to this kid. He's a really nice quarterback prospect. Trevor Lawrence is almost four years younger than him. He's a kid. Trevor Lawrence's ceiling. He's not even close to it yet. One more herd? The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the IHeart radio app. Search herd to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like. Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending,

opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

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I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch.

Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person.

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What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. podcast point game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get to fly. He running the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. You get your podcasts.

So years ago, I've told the story I worked in Tampa, and I love the NBA, and nobody in the sports office wanted to cover the NBA. And I was like, I'll go cover it because we had this team in Orlando, which was about an hour drive away. And they had Penny Hardaway, and they had Nick Anderson, and they had Shaquille O'Neill. And they were kind of like, people thought they were the next great team. They were the nicest guys. Penny Hardaway wouldn't remember me. I was this nobody reporter. But I remember going back and I would tell guys, I'm like, it's the nicest team I ever cover.

Like everybody was gracious and nice. Penny Hardaway was the emerging star. Third year now entering is the Memphis head basketball coach. You made the All-Star team four times and 14 years in the NBA, a gold medal winner, a national high school player of the year in 1990. And Penny is now joining us. First of all, thank you and congratulations on getting the job. It's very rare that a star player gets into coaching and succeeds.

You have a winning record. So good for you. Congratulations. Now, first thanks off. I really appreciate everything and being a lot. on. It's been a great ride for me so far. So let's start with this. So when you broke into the league, Michael was retired. Then he came back. Do you remember? Because a lot of people, Penny, thought you had a lot of Michael Jordan in your game, very vertical, could handle the ball, could drive to the basket, could play above the rim, could shoot a jumper. Do you remember your first

meeting with MJ? Yes, I do. I remember that I was hearing rumblings about. I remember that I was hearing rumblings him coming back and the game that he came back, I think it was at Indiana, and I got super excited because I hated that he was returning when I was coming into the league, and then he came back. I was like, now I'm going to get an opportunity to play against who I thought was the greatest player of all time and to see how I could test my skills against him. And the first game that we played against them, I felt like I had to get my respect in that game, and I think we beat them. I had like 36 points that we beat them that game, in Orlando. Now, so when he came back that first year, people forget this.

Your magic beat those Chicago Bulls. It's as if that series never happened, Penny. It just disappeared into the ether. But let's go back to that series. So Michael comes back. You actually are the kings of the East. So talk about that series. And was Michael at his best?

Was he still working himself into shape? Take me back to that series. No, Michael was not at his. his best. He was not the Michael Jordan that we all knew all those years when he had a rhythm. When he came back, he was rusty and rightfully so. He changed numbers. He was wearing number 45 because of his baseball number. And then he changed the number 23 in game two and played a better game, but you could just tell he was very rusty. He did not like the new arena. He was the old Chicago Stadium guy. He had never, the United Center was not his type of a building when he first came

back. He was having problems shooting the ball off the glass. He didn't like the rims. He didn't like the bigger arena. It was like a lot of things that were like a factor for us, for sure, that were just, you know, he wasn't himself. And we had all those things working against this, I mean, working against them and helping us and working for us and we beat him in that series. Now, it's funny. Then the following year, Michael's back to be in Michael. He's now not in baseball shape. He's in basketball shape. So when you look at your games against him, when he was back to Michael and you're this fledgling young superstar, what was he like to face? Was he tougher to guard or was he a better defender?

Like, where did he give you the most trouble? Well, when it comes to Michael Jordan, well, he was really hurt losing that series to us. And that entire summer, we were on his mind because he felt like we were the new, the new upcoming guys that he was going to have to beat. He had already gone through, you know, the Pistons and, you know, Boston and all these guys, the Lakers, he's going through these guys to finally get to where he really needs to get to. And then he went three championships and then retired. And then comes back on this young team now is like the big dog on the block.

And playing in that series the following year, he came back with a vengeance. Even though we had injuries, he was a totally, totally different player, tougher to guard. And he was so tenacious on defense because it was more personal. Michael, that was the hand check era, Penny. people always say Michael was stronger than people on TV thought. Did you sense that? Yeah, for sure.

Strong hands, big hands. And when you can hand-tech somebody, you definitely could push them in an area where they didn't want to go. And you'd have to fight that off and try to resist that. But yeah, he was very strong because he started working out and getting bigger and bigger every year. Yeah. When you watched the documentary The Last Dance, Penny Hardaway,

the Memphis head basketball coach entering his third year, Are you learning any new things about Michael? Anything new? I kind of learned some things about him that are kind of like in the last dance, like a lot of this stuff. Like he came out and said a lot of people are going to think he's, you know, because of the last dance. Yeah.

He's just so competitive and he just speaks his mind. And Michael is Michael has a, you know, a really good sense of humor, always looking for, you know, a joke or to say something. The thing that really shocked me was the Jerry Krauss situation where he and Pipham were really just ragging on Jerry Krause as much as they could. That doesn't usually happen with their players in the GM. No, I mean, actually your GM was Pat Williams in Orlando, and he's a very gregarious, likable guy.

In fact, you go back to your teams. I mean, you know, it's funny. People forget this. You had the Little Penny commercials, which are the Chris Rock voice. there was a moment, Penny, when you were turning into a superstar in America. And when you watch the Michael Jordan documentary, I'm taken back by how Godlike he was. It was a mob. And you were, for a brief time, you were getting foisted into that space, Penny.

You were literally the next thing. Were you ever uncomfortable with it? Just this constant hovering mass of people and attention and cameras around you? you know what i really enjoyed it and i can see how michael for as long as he did it how he got to a point where he was like man i'm leaving it and i'm not going to miss it for me i enjoyed every moment of it i guess everyone's different i never looked at it and it and it went man i can't go anywhere everywhere i go there's moms of people i look at that as love and i just try to reciprocate that and show love back but i mean i couldn't speak for michael

but for me i enjoyed every minute of it you know it's funny uh i remember shack a friend of mine live near Shaq in Orlando on the butler chain of lakes and he'd see him out occasionally in a boat and he's like man that guy is he just is so unique and everybody love Shaq take my audience back penny to the Shaquille o'Neal now this is pre-lakers he's a little skinnier the first the first time you played with Shaq take my audience back to how special he was no shack was much smaller than he was with the Lakers, very agile, mobile, could handle the ball, would start the fast break and be the first person down. If he had the ball and then without the ball, he was the best run runner

and the fastest guy and the first guy down the floor. He could, I don't know who the fastest guy in the league was at that time, but Shaq wasn't too far behind that guy on a dead sprint. Like he was very athletic and very mobile. I might be overstating that a little bit, but for a big man, he could really move because he wasn't, he understood who he was. And that's the way he kind of figured his game out early on in his career, is that I had to outrun everybody and be in better shape.

And he did a phenomenal job. The total shack that no one knew was the smaller shack that played with me in Orlando. That type of shack. Most of the people started seeing him when he won the championships and got a little bigger and stronger. For the record, Penny, I think you would have adapted well to the current NBA, which is no hand check, more three-ball shooting. Do you ever look at the current game and think, man, I was just born about seven, eight, nine years too early, maybe 10 years too early? You know, I think it would be fun to this era because I do think that my game would, you know, it would translate from that era to this era because I was a guard that was dynamic in the transition.

There's not as much posting up, but as far as the transition game and shooting threes, I'm sure I would have adapted to it. Back in the day, threes weren't my game. I was more of a mid-range shooter, the post guy. Yeah. But I do look at the game nowadays and go, man, if I could have played in this area, it would have been a lot of fun. You know, you're the Memphis head coach, and I've been saying before for about a year now, I have nothing against the G League. But if I had a son and I could send him to college for a year and have to go to a college campus,

have to play within a system, use it as a platform so he can go to the tournament and people can see him. That's the only reason I know who Zion is, the tournament and Duke. I have nothing against the G League, but I'd like to see the NBA, at least occasionally, give a hug to college basketball and not see it as an enemy the way the NFL really uses college football as its ally. Are you bothered by young players now saying, we're not even going to go to college? High school to a minor league, pro league. Does it bother you at all? It doesn't bother me that guys want to go G. week at all. I think I've been, you know, quoted in the last couple of weeks

in saying that I like, I say the G League is needed, but only if a kid 100% to me wants to go to the G league. I feel like you do. I wish the NBA and the NTA could come together and work it out. But if a kid wants to go to the G League, man, I'm all for that. If they see that avenue has been the best avenue for them, then I support that 100%. I just don't like when the kid is already committed or already signed with the school and is focusing on going to that school and then he keeps getting recruited by the G League. That's what I don't agree with if that's happening. Because if you see a kid come out of his NLI or out of a commitment, you're thinking that

there's still negotiations going on. That's the only thing that I said about the G League. I think it's great for development. I think if a kid wants to go there 100%, that I'm for that kid to go 100%. I just didn't like the part of it where if a kid is already focused on going to college and has signed, then I think that kids should be off limits. That's just my thought process. If you had a son who's a great basketball player, would you tell him to go to college for a

great coach, great program for a year, go G League? No, I would go to college, and I think that NCA stepped into the right, made a step in the right direction by allowing kids to, you know, to make money on their own likeness. But there was nothing like college. I think if you ask the percentage of the guys in the NBA, what's more fun, college or NBA, most of the guys are going to say the college experience because you're you learn so much, you get a chance to be around students. You don't grow up too soon.

You get a chance to kind of develop over the month and then kind of kind of take your game on and then you get drafted, but you get a chance to be a kid. The college fans and the college experience is the best experience I've ever experienced in my life when it's come to basketball more so than the NBA. The money is great, but the college experience is so special.

And you want every kid to kind of go through that and kind of be a part of that. But like I said, it's not for everybody. it's going to be a selective few guys that are going to say, I don't want to go to college, I want to go to the G League, and, you know, to me, I support those guys that want to go do that. So you felt you grew up a little bit in college? Yes, I spent three years in college. I played two, and it was the most fun time I've ever had.

It's just to develop my game, to be around teammates, with the game is pure. The college fans are amazing, going from arena to arena, going to different college campuses. Yes, it was a good. It was the best time of my life. Yeah. Because I was saying when I watched the last dance, one thing I'm really struck with, Penny, is how mature Michael was his first year in the NBA. And a lot of that is Dean Smith, that Michael was really a grown-up.

Now he also had great parents. But I really do think Michael was really ready to be the face of the league, his first year in the league. And I'm not sure a lot of these kids are quite ready yet. Like James Wiseman's a great player for Memphis. He now moves to the NBA. is he ready the money, the fame, the travel, the competition,

the nightly, you know, activity athletically. Is he ready for it? I don't know if any 18-year-old, and James is 18-year-old, is fully ready for that. They're mature. He's a mature 18-year-old, but you don't know if a kid is really fully ready for that because they don't understand what the world really is going to, you know,

hand to them. But I just don't see an 18-year-old coming in. and just being the face. I know LeBron did a great job. It took Kobe a while. He kind of went through the, you know, the ups and downs of, you know, playing on different, you know, playing on the team and kind of coming off the bench and being a guy that worked his way up.

But, and even with Kevin Garnett and guys of that nature, but I don't know if one guy is ready to do and take on the entire league by himself at 18 years ago. I know Zion is trying to do it, but it's tough. It's tougher at that age. And like you said, with Michael, with that experience of having Coach Smith and great parents, that all helped him be more mature going to that next year. Yeah, he was refined and polished and ready to roll. Hey, Penny, basketball coach Penny Hardaway, Memphis, entering his

third year, winning record, multiple-time All-Star, a decade and a half NBA career. What a pleasure it is to talk to you today, man. I appreciate it. No, same here. Thank you so much for having me. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlyce comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real

story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life

12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day

and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing.

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This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her.

What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, man. Miss Parker.

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