The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Best of The Herd for May 26, 2020

Episode Date: May 26, 2020

It makes sense that MJ and others didn't want Isiah Thomas on the Dream TeamRatings for The Match are telling you what changes Golf should makeChanging the NBA playoff format makes a lot of senseTua has an "it" quality that can't be easily definedGuest: Jack McCallum, Sports Illustrated Writer and Author Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild. I mean, it was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all?

You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening to The Best of Heard Podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday from 12 to 3 Eastern, 9 to noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and FS1.

Find your local station for the herd at Fox Sports Radio.com or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Heard. is the best of the herd with Colin Cowher on Fox Sports Radio. Oh, here we go. It is a Tuesday live in Los Angeles. This is The Herd. Wherever you may be and however you may be listening, we're on IHeart Radio, Fox Sports Radio, for about 25 minutes, FS1. Then we move over to FS2.

Joy Taylor is joining me. It's amazing to me how many great topics we have. Today's the day I have 10 things in front of me. I want to talk about. And how are you, Joy? I'm doing great. Yesterday, Memorial Day, beaches were very busy where I was at, people walking around, some mass, some not, everybody giving everybody space.

People were grown-ups in my community, out and about, giving people room, some masks, some not, mostly not now. But it was great. It was a beautiful day on the beach in California. It was a nice day yesterday here. It was really, really nice. So the Michael Jordan documentary is over, but there's a beautiful. There's been sort of a lot of reverb about it.

And so Jack McCollum, we're trying to get on the show later. He's for IHeart Radio. He's doing a podcast on the Dream Team stuff. And, you know, there's always been that long story about Michael Jordan didn't want Isaiah Thomas on the dream team. And Isaiah Thomas, as we found in the documentary, there were a lot of people that didn't like the Piston style of basketball or Isaiah Thomas. Jack McCollum, legendary NBA guy for 30 years.

covered it, said, no, no, no, Michael did not want Isaiah Thomas on the team, and that's that. Here it is. No matter what you heard, there was never much of a chance for Isaiah Thomas to make the dream team. For this reason, mainly, Michael Jordan did not want him. I wrote that back in 1992 because a source close to the situation, no, not Jordan himself, told me that was the case. But Jordan's reaction to the question, do you keep Isaiah off the team?

Was either angry? No. Dismissive? No Isaiah questions, please. Or coy. Hey, I didn't pick the team. So what I went to interview Jordan for the Dream Team book in 2011, I wondered how I would nudge the conversation over to Isaiah Thomas.

But against all odds, Jordan went there himself, suddenly and without warning. And they called me to ask me to say, right? If you didn't hear, he said, I don't want to play if Isaiah Thomas is on the team. Yeah, so what? So what? LeBron James didn't want certain Lakers on his team two years ago and got him traded. That's not a three-week exhibition. That's the league with a salary cap where you have to find other teams that will take the players.

Michael was like, I don't like that guy. We got Stockton, we got magic. I don't like him. So what? You have NBA stars now when you have to, in the NBA, to make a trade, you have to find about three teams where the salaries matchup. It's incredibly difficult for a GM when a player's like James Harden, I don't want Chris Paul here.

What do you do? It's hard. They had Stockton Magic. I don't like him. He tackled me for four years. I don't like him. Wouldn't shake my hand. So what?

Folks, the Olympics was a trip. It wasn't about winning. They were playing Tunisia. They were going to win. The average margin of victory was 40 points. It was a trip. And guys on trips. I can't speak for women, but let me speak for guys.

We've all done it. You're putting together a camping trip, trip to Vegas, golfing trip in Ireland. And there's that one guy you're like, you know, he's weird. I probably wouldn't want to be with him for six days. He's odd. You think he's kind of strange? I've always had a rule with guys. You can't take four guys anywhere for any duration.

You can take three, but by the fourth, one guy's got a weird something collection. One guy will fool around. One guy will be inappropriate. One guy doesn't get the joke. You just can't take four guys anywhere. It's the three guy rule. You go to Vegas, one of them's really cheap. You can't buy a nice bottle of wand.

One guy complains about money. One guy wants to go to bed at 745. One guy is rigid. Michael didn't like him on the team. By the way, Charles Barkley didn't like him either. and the next year, Charles Barkley won the MVP. So the guys with the talent, MJ and Barclay at the time, two best guys are like, no, we don't like him.

There you go. Folks, I've had, I've probably known a dozen guys in my life who have started a company, right? Or, you know, they're, some are tiny. There's four people, eight people. The two things guys look for. One, talent. but a close second and often first is compatibility. It's called hang.

Is he a good hang? This was a trip overseas, crammed in buses, seven footers, dinner every night, lunch every day, practice every day. The games were not competitive. Like there was one that was marginally competitive. This was,

do you want to hang out with Isaiah Thomas, who'd been part of a Pistons team that tackled people for three years? I mean, try to hurt people. was petty, wouldn't shake anybody's hand. Sorry, Isaiah, be a better hang. Be a better hang. That's on you.

David Robinson was quoted recently talking about this. And David Robinson, we tried to find the quote. We couldn't find the audio of it yet. But he talked about it. He said, listen, man, it's basketball. Chemistry matters. You got to get along with people. One bad guy blows up a locker room.

And that's in the NBA. where guys go home. But when you're going overseas for three and a half weeks, same hotel, same dinner, same buses, same practice, I have no problem if Michael Jordan said, we got stocked and we got magic, I don't want him. So what? The rule in life, be compatible.

What do I always say? Lubricate, don't agitate society. Why would you go on Twitter and poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke. lubricate life. You're going to get more offers, more job opportunities, make more money, afford better schools for your kids, everything, lubricate, don't agitate. Isaiah was an agitator, and the better player said, see you, bye, I'm done, and I'm okay with it. So this was big news, I mean, not small news. The match with two old quarterbacks playing golf was the highest rated golf event in cable TV history.

That means it beat early rounds of the Masters U.S. Open, British Open, and PGA Championship. Two quarterbacks playing golf with gimmicky rules, alternating shot. Wake up, call for golf. Well, Colin, nothing was on. Netflix wasn't on? Amazon Prime wasn't on? You do understand what people are watching these days. Right, old guy?

Fox News wasn't on. CNN wasn't on. MSNBC wasn't on talking, I don't know, global pandemic and Trump. You don't think those have been setting records the last four years? Trump, cable TV? There was plenty on. By the way, Tiger Woods. Remember the year he won the Masters recently?

You know how many people watch that Friday Masters? 3.2 million. Quarterbacks got double the number. Old quarterbacks got. double the number because they mic the players and they mic the commentators and they had on course people talking and here's all you need to know about golf here's all you need and by the way the tiger Friday they got three million people and tiger one remember and we love tiger it got half of what sunday got well there was nothing on either except you know a big twins a's game

which got about 300,000 people nobody nobody's watching regular season baseball nothing They will now, but they weren't then. The point in, big golfing events, big sporting events, it doesn't matter what's on. It's either engaging or it's not. Generally, if there's a big event happening in sports, you know, the late Sunday game in the NFL, there's not much on. NBA finals, there's not much on. It's the event. You're either interesting or you're not.

And most golf isn't that fascinating. Be more fun. Lighten up. Pull the bifocals down and your slacks. Lighten up. Mike a handful of players. You don't have to mic everybody. Find six guys like Justin Thomas who are funny.

Mike them. Have a golf cart and occasionally pull it up to a player and let him take it for 45 seconds driving up. You don't have to have golf carts everywhere. I'm not asking the masters to be Animal House. I'm not asking the, you know, I'm not asking the British Open to be Caddyshack. What I'm saying is a golf cart all miced up. driving around. Occasionally stop it by and give it to a guy walking up a hole.

Let him talk and be funny. Golfers are unique. They're smart. They're funny. They've got opinions. They're political. They've made money. They've globally traveled.

They're fascinating guys. Why don't I know it? Let me, let me hear from them. I mean, golfers are usually globally traveling. They've tried different food, different hotels, different airlines, different cultures. Probably got fascinating stories. You're playing in. Dublin, you're playing in Dubai, you're playing in Tampa, you're playing in L.A. You're playing in New Zealand.

Let's hear from them. Again, nobody is asking golf to turn into the Phoenix Open every weekend. Nobody's saying that. But here's all you need to know about golf. Dick's sporting goods gave up on the sport. Had to fire 500 PGA pros who were aligned with the company. Just got rid of them. Nike pretty much said, we're done. golf courses last decade 800 have closed not counting the pandemic 800 have closed oh by the way many top country clubs

begging for members the reason the NFL is king is it's not too proud to improve it's not too proud to go college football does some stuff it's pretty interesting on Saturdays NFL goes you know that Vince McMahon

XFL thing he hate me we may not go there but some of the camera angles, don't be too proud to adapt. Don't be too proud to evolve. When two quarterbacks are getting $6 million golfing and the Masters gets 3.2 with Tiger, quit being so static. Lighten it up. Mike a few people.

Mike the announcers. I liked having a young lady at the box before guys teed off. What are you thinking before you tee off? These guys are funny. I mean, they're well-traveled. They're smart guys. They travel around. They got money.

They hang out all the time. Let's hear some stories. Guy comes off the green. Have a mic there. What did you think of it? Have some emotion. If golfers don't want to talk, don't make them talk. But watch what would happen.

Because they've got the hat on with the advertiser and the shirt on with the advertisers pretty soon. The corporate sponsors would be like, yeah, you may want to talk or we're going to replace you with some other golfer. Golfers are so good. I mean, did you watch Tiger and Mickelson? I mean, they're just screwing around. around, barely practice swinging, walking off the tee, 325, exactly where they want it.

These guys can't handle interviewing before they tee off. Maybe not at the Masters, maybe not at the British Open, U.S. Open, but at the Buick Open, lighten up, Francis. All right, good stuff. Pack today. By the way, Charles Barkley was on Dan Patrick show this morning. He talked about this. If I'm the PGA tour, this is my piece of advice to them, if we're not going to have fans,

they should mic the players. believe that you can just have guys playing golf and announcers talking. I think if they're going to be successful and have great ratings, number one, they're going to have great ratings that we need golf, we need sports. But I think they should consider Mike and the players. Thank you. It was fun. Six million. And don't give me this. There was nothing else on. Between the pandemic and Trump, cable news networks are double and triple the ratings they had five years ago. And Netflix and Amazon Prime and Hulu and all the, you know, subscription services are all flourishing. There's plenty of options at night.

There's always something to watch on TV. There's 500 cable channels. Good is good. Interesting is interesting. And it was. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action, with stories told by

the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses

Steve Burns, Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that's two different levels of trust I want you to just really be a good person Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway.

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. They're finishing that sentence.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clifford Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref. I want you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue of 42. Hey, Brett, my mama want you to wave at her.

What? Where's she at? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. So this is something that's been thrown around for years. And I've always thought the NFL and the NBA are willing to change, baseball, so NFL is incredible. They'll change rules in the middle of a Super Bowl.

Like, they don't care. You know, they change that goofy replay pass interference thing quickly. I hated it. They got rid of it. NFL is neither beholden to anything. They like, just let's make the game better for television. NBA's not quite the NFL, but they've introduced some things. Some have failed a new ball, the sleeve shirts, but the NBA is always willing to kind of like roll the dice, listen to opinions, listen to the media.

What do people think? So one of the things that's been thrown out for years and years, and I, I don't think it's necessary, but I think it makes the league better. As once you get to the playoffs, just go one through 16 seating. Forget East and West. Just go one through 16 seating. Now, I would think ideally you don't have to do that. But for some reason, and I don't have an explanation for this,

the West is always better than the East. The West has better owners, better GMs, better stars, better roster. They have better winter weather. Maybe that's it. Guys in the off seat, because the NBA has mostly been October. November, December, January, February is like 75% of the regular season. Maybe the good players are like, I'd rather fly into Phoenix in L.A. and San Antonio than I would, Philadelphia, D.C., Boston, and a blizzard.

Maybe that's it. The only eastern seaboard team that attracts free agents is Miami. Great weather. Aqua water. I've always thought weather has something to do with it. But, you know, you take out Pat Riley, you know, it's a lot of the GMs, they're all west, the good ones. The owners, the stars. 17, 16, to the top 20 players once again are west.

Since Michael Jordan retired, the East has seven titles. The West has 14. And of the seven, LeBron's got four. If LeBron had been in the West, it would be 21 since Jordan retired. It would be like 19 to 2. I don't have an answer for it. The SEC dominates college football. I have an answer for it.

There's more good high school football players in the Southern imprint. They care more. They're more passionate. They pay their coaches more. NBA, I don't know. So here's the one through 16. If you did it today and you reseeded the NBA and Brian Windhorse reporting. A lot of people now in the NBA strongly considering a one through 16 format.

I never thought it was necessary until about five, six years ago. You start looking at it. People talk about it and you go, you know what? I mean, even if I give you the teams and the matchups right here, Bucks against Magic, that's East versus East, one verse 16. Lakers versus Nets. Now that's a West versus an East. You know, Clippers against Mavericks. It's 413. That's West versus west. Jazz Rockets. That's West versus West. Heat Thunder, east versus west. So it wouldn't change it dramatically, but over the course of time, you'd get more, I think, interesting and arguably fair matchups. And it's just the reality of it. The West, and I can't explain it, it's just for years. I mean, even when Michael Jordan was winning, you had the best team. The minute he left,

it went back to the West. He stopped playing to go to baseball. It's Houston. And then he he leaves Chicago and it goes back west. It's the reality of the NBA. So college football has done this. When I was a kid, AP poll decided the national championship. Then I'm in my 20s and 30s, and it's the BCS poll. And now it's the Final Four playoff voted on by a playoff committee. Change, change, change, get better, get better, get better.

The sports that struggle with change, golf, baseball, have lost some connectivity to their audiences. So I think it's smart. I think it's, I don't, you know, again, if, if the, if the, Listen, if Janice moves west, like the rumors, turn the lights out in the conference. I mean, Ben Simmons had a girlfriend in L.A. If he moved west and Janus moved west, why do I need the NBA package? Just have an NBA Western Conference package. I won't watch the East.

Want more herd? The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the IHeart Radio app. Search Herd to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like. So there's a report now from Barry Jackson of the Miami Herald. He talked to people in the Dolphins front office, and they are more than willing to play Tua very early. He's not going to sit. They're going to just watch what happens. Therefore, he's going to play very, very early.

This reminds me of, you know, when LeBron went to play for the Miami Heat, it's Wade County. This is Dwayne Wade's team. They had four practices. It was LeBron's team because LeBron has it. It, and I have a rule on it, if you find a really good athlete, but you can explain all of him, he's a star. But if you have a really good, hardworking athlete, and you can't explain all of him, he's a superstar. Derek Jeter, why is he so good with awkward throws?

Patrick Mahomes, no look passes. Why was Kobe such a great tough shot maker? Why doesn't anybody ever get a clean shot on Russell Wilson? Why is Brady better in the fourth quarter than the first quarter? It. Superstars. If I can explain all of you, even if you're really, really good, you're a star. If I can't explain all of you, Lionel Messi, how does he, he's a superstar.

Mark Sanchez. And two NFL quarterbacks have come on my show in the last two weeks. Mark Sanchez first. Listen to how he explains to him. Sometimes he can't even articulate what he did on film, and it leaves you scratching your head because it's so good and so fast and so instinctive. You're like, well, how did you know that? And he can't really get the words out.

Like, he doesn't even know. It's almost like he's processing what's happening physically in front of him. And in those nanoseconds, his body's already reacting. He's already making decisions that he didn't even know he could make that quickly. and he can't even talk about it. So I was like, what the heck is that? How did you know? And it's uncanny the way he does stuff like that.

So it's almost like he's mentally twitchy. It's crazy. I've never been around anybody like that. Colin, he is an it guy. He has the it factor. I like how twitchy he is. He has really good base about him when he goes to throw all the time. I love that.

He's very instinctual, a very instinctual player. That's something you can't teach or coach. The thing about Tua that you have to love is his competitive. competitiveness, but also you have to say, hey, my man, we need you on the next play. We need you the next series, the next game. Throw that boy away and let's live to play another down. He can't afford to have those injuries like he did in college, but that can learn with some knowledge and being coached the right way. But they both talk about it. They can't quite explain how he does stuff. It's like Jerry Rice is the greatest wide receiver in NFL history. Many think he's the best player.

It's not the fastest wide receiver. It's not the strongest wide receiver. He's not the tallest wide receiver. He's not the quickest wide receiver. He's not the most athletic wide receiver. Well, it's Joe Montana. Well, that's interesting. We do homework on this show.

Jerry had 92 catches at 40 years old with the Raiders. At 40 years old at wide receiver. Larry Fitzgerald is a former teammate of Y.A. Tittle. He's 37. Larry Fitzgerald, first year in the league, they didn't wear shoes. He's 37. Jerry Rice at 40 for a lousy organization at the time. They were good that year.

He had 92 catches at 40. At wide receiver. Yeah, I understand the occasional right tackle, the occasional center plays late. Quarterback, maybe. 40, wide receiver, 92 catches, 1,300 yards. It. Nobody can explain Jerry Rice. I mean, well, it. When you can't explain stuff, that is all-time stuff.

Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. On Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the IHeart Radio app. Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies,

and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action, with stories told by people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist,

Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough

because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses Steve Burns, Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that's two different levels of trust

I want you to just really be a good person Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam Jett. Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clifford Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker. This linebacker whops up to me, he goes, Hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue of 42. Hey, ref, my mama wants you to wave at her.

What? Where's she at? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Our next guest is an encyclopedia of basketball. He wrote for Sports Illustrated for 30 years. He is still a contributor.

Fifteen years ago, you got the Kurt Gowdy Award, Basketball Hall of Fame, Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame, author of again, 10 books, a sports writer, Dream Team tapes available on IHeart Radio as a new podcast. He has interviewed everybody, sat down with everybody. There's not a lot of Jack McCallums, and he is joining us via the Coward Global Satellite Network. So, you know, it's funny watching the MJ documentary, Jack. I don't know if I learned a lot, but it did amplify what I knew. And there were some little secrets.

And listen, I love Michael, but he's competitive, Michael Jordan. And sometimes Michael contradicts Michael. So let's go back to the Isaiah thing. You have proof that Michael said he's not playing on my team, right? You got proof. Does it bother you? Does it bother me that I have the proof? No, it bothers me that probably Michael may hear about all this.

And I fear he's going to be looking at his laptop one day and go, Jack McCallum, I have no problem with Jack McCallum. That's how I picture Michael answering every question these days, you know. When I went to interview him, the tapes are from the book I did. in 2012, Colin. So when I went to interview Michael, it's obviously one of the things you want to ask him. And he brought it up himself.

And he kind of backed into it because the backstory is that during the Olympics, qualifying, John Stockton got hurt. And it looked like they might have to replace them. And Michael started talking about that. And he said, man, I thought they were going to get Isaiah to replace him. And then he said, and I had told Rod Thorne in the beginning,

I didn't want to play if Michael, if Isaiah was on the team. And it kind of like shocked me. Rarely does your interview go better than you think on the tough subject. So look, there's a whole reason, if you want to talk about it, there's a whole couple reasons why I think Michael either avoids it, obfuscates, or kind of downright lies. about it. I have my opinions on that. What are your opinions? Why won't he confront it? Well, because I think he, it's being presented kind of like Isaiah was a dead, solid lock on the

dream team. And Michael came along and went, no, we're kicking him off. He can't be on it. That's not what it was at all. I mean, there was never a lot of locomotion to get Isaiah on the dream team. You know, things happened fast in sports, and that team was basically decided upon May, June, July, August of 91. By that time, the Pistons were no longer the Kings. The Bulls, Jordan's Bulls had surpassed them. By that time, Isaiah kind of had acrimonious relationships with a number of players, not just, you know, it's not like magic leapt to Mike, to Leap to Isaiah's defense. it's not like Chuck Daley, his own coach, who coached the Dream Team left to his defense. So I think Jordan feels he's out on this kind of island where he alone kept him off.

And all I can tell you is that Jordan said he wasn't going to play if Isaiah was on the team. And was that a big contributor, of course. But there was not a whole chorus of, okay, this is injustice. we got to get him on the team. That is not the way it was, not at all. Jack McCallum joining us. You know, there was an interesting quote, and it's got its own mythology.

I don't believe it, that MJ players today couldn't play with MJ. I just want your perspective. I think players like to win, but Michael is different, and it was a different time. What's your perspective on stars couldn't play with Michael?

Well, the sort of, let's say, aggressive behavior that Michael shown toward his teammates. What was kind of directed at, I mean, Scotty in his time, and Scotty, when Michael was doing that, Michael always treated Scotty a little bit like a kid brother, even after Scottie became a dream teamer, you know, one of the 50 greatest players ever. So there was always that sort of big brother, little brother relationship. So if Michael were on a team with LeBron, Durant, well,

Esbrook Harden. Would he treat them a little different? Probably. I think he would still want to be that king of the hill. But in answer to the question, would they have taken the same kind of abuse that Michael gave to BJ Armstrong, Will Purdue, you know, Bill Cartwright? No. You could ask whether Michael would have doled it out to the superstars. But the way things are today, I believe they would have got a season worth of it and go, I got to be somewhere else, man. I'm not hanging around for this. I didn't sign up.

Right. You know, Jack, you have such a unique perspective. I mean, you not only were covering guys, you know, 70s, 80s, but you're still writing today and you're still active. And, you know, there's a lot of LeBron, MJ, debate. talk and I work on a show and a network where we do that stuff. That's what we do, right? That's sports. That's sports. That's what it should be. You get tired of it. I'm sure you do more than I do, but that's why we do it. Right, right. LeBron is the great Swiss Army knife. I've said that before.

He does more things well than anybody I've ever seen. Michael's the greatest individual, offensive, defensive, relentless player, but they're both legends. But when you look, go back to when Michael came in and when LeBron came in, did you know suspect Michael would be this good? Did you suspect LeBron would be this great? I guess I had my doubts about LeBron. I had more doubts, the way I can recall it, it's a long time ago now, Kyle. The way I recall it was I had more doubts about LeBron. I did a story on LeBron when he was a rookie.

And at that time, he was coming in. He was changing things around. He was getting rid of his, you know, you know, this sort of scholarly brand of old school Cleveland advisors he had. He had a couple lawyers. And, oh, no, I'm going to do my own stuff. I got my guy. You know, I have Maverick. Everything's okay. And I got this under control. And I thought, I just saw a lot more potential off the court. LeBron's not going to be able to handle this. He hasn't had the Dean Smith mentor like Michael had, hasn't had the stable childhood with Dolores and James the way Michael had.

In that respect, LeBron James is one of the most incredible athletes I have ever seen between surpassing what you thought could have happened to him, you know, just as an individual and compared to where he is. I mean, the guy made almost no missteps. None. So I, from that standpoint, I had many more doubts about LeBron. And whatever doubts you had about Michael, he was so good, you know, right away, whether or not the league needed that kind of firing up, whether the right place at the right time, whether his style came along and the league was a little stuffy. I mean, you know, showtime was going on when Michael came in. But Michael was so good, so early that whatever doubts you had were dissipated, you know, right away.

Yeah, he's so dynamic. Jack McCallum joining us. When you look at this league now, I saw today they're considering going one through 16 seating and doing regardless of conference. I don't think that's ideal, but I'm a big believer in adapter dies. So Jack, I can't figure something out. I theorize a lot. I've got all sorts of theories. Most are ridiculous.

But I got a lot of them. Well, theories, you don't have to. That's why they're a theory. They don't have to be correct. They're just a theory. That's why I like them. I can be wrong. Yeah, exactly.

Why has the West for 30 years been so much better? Because I do think receding now, regardless of conference, makes more sense because I think the East is less interesting. Is it because the West has better owners? Why has the West been so dominant for 30 years? What is it? I think one of the things, I mean, obviously they should get, I'm not sure there's one out of 10 NBA fans. First thing they could do would get rid of divisions. anybody that still puts up their division, well, or the Atlantic Division titleists, to me, they could certainly go.

When I look at standings, I just go to conference. And I certainly believe in, you know, believe in reseedings. So far as better owners, different owners, I would have to really think about that. You know, the West has an amazing brand of diverse owners during the time. I mean, they have, you know, you had Jerry Bus, you know. playboy chemist real estate guy. You had Peter Holden, San Antonio, sort of this close to the vest conservative guy. You had Larry Miller in Utah who sold cars.

I mean, they've done it. If it's owners, they have an amazingly diverse bunch of people that have kept these teams near the top. Geez, beyond that, Colin, I would have a hard time deciding, you know, what it's been basically since Michael, departed from the league. It has been a Western Conference League, but I haven't developed a theory on it yet, but when I do, I will let you know what it is. Back to your Dream Team podcast. Jerry Krause was the villain overwhelmingly. Is that fair, Jack? Well, no. I mean, I do not see, I was kind of happy and I was surprised that Jerry got that much love. The reaction of the first four or five episodes of this podcast was pretty much, you know, largely on why are they

crapping on Jerry Krauss so bad and he can't defend himself, you know, now that he's not with us. And that's valid. I mean, if I write a story about someone who is dead and it's a negative story, yeah, you probably got to pull your punches a little bit because that person is not there to defend themselves. The only thing I will say about Michael and Scotty's sort of almost rabid dog, you know, dogging of Jerry Krause was that this idea of Cooch and the way Jerry favored Cooch, that was absolutely true. Because I remember, you know, times during the 91-92 season gone to talk to Jerry Krause, and all he talked about was Cooch. And I thought that was odd. And Jordan has always had this thing about loyalty.

You know, now maybe it had to be loyalty on Jordan's terms. I'm loyalty to Nike. I'm not wearing the reboxing, you know. And his thing with Krauss was that this showed some kind of lack of loyalty to talk about this guy who wasn't even on our team, who did not go through these battles with the pistons and finally win it in 91. So that, I want people to remember who thought they were a little hard on Krause that that was really true. However, I would give the nod to the documentary going a little bit too heavy on Kraus.

I didn't think they needed to show that final press conference at the beginning of maybe episode eight with him walking off the stage and, you know, after he wouldn't answer a question. So it was a little rough on him, but Jerry had his moments when he deserved some criticism. Scottie Pippen was livid reportedly at how he was presented. Did you think the documentary was fair to Scotty? I thought so. I, you know, it's interesting about the documentary. There was 10 hours of documentary, and there's been 100 hours of, you know, a cottage industry of reacting. That's kind of what we're doing now.

I thought Scotty, I thought he came across, you know, pretty well. and they had to cover the moment when he wouldn't go into the game. And I thought that was Scotty's only bad moment on it. You know that he regrets it. And from the stories that Bill Cartwright told and Steve Kerr told about them breaking down afterward and even Scotty breaking down, Scotty could have used that moment on camera to say, okay, I do regret that. But perhaps he was taking a cue from the whole documentary. It was sort of the no regret tour, you know.

Michael kind of set the tone. And that was the one moment to me, Scotty came across badly, but that was Scottie himself doing that. So I thought it was kind of fair to him, but I don't know. You know, when you're the subject, when you're the subject of something and when you're in it, I'm sure you've known this. You've probably got criticism that you thought was unwarranted and other people thought it was fair. I'm sure that's what Scottie was, but I thought it was okay, just personally.

Okay, they're called the Dream Team Tapes. They're available on IHeart Radio. They're getting all sorts of downloads. I went and checked this morning. It's doing very well. Jack McCallum, sports writer and author, in our business, a legend, the podcast, the Dream Team tapes. And it's just been a pleasure. And I love that you're still working and kicking it and doing stuff. And your context is invaluable. And I've been reading you for years, Jack. Thank you. Appreciate it. I want to hear Animal House and the Masters. That's what I can't get out of my mind. You mentioned,

I totally want to see green coats and animal house. That I would pay to see. Great seeing you, Jack. Jack McCallum, good stuff. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. And every episode, we're cutting through the noise. breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smygle and friends. me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at a podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay And I'm Alex English Each episode We pick a year

unpack what went down And try to make sense Of how we survived it With our friends Fellow comedians And favorite offers Like Mark Lamont Hill On the 80s

It was a wild year I don't think There's a more important year for black people Listen to look back at it On the IHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts Or wherever you get your podcasts

Hey what's good y'all You're listening And learn the hard way With your favorite therapist and hosts care games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere,

but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed human