The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - A Huge Boxing Weekend

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Chris is joined by longtime boxing writer, Dan Rafael to dive into a huge weekend in the boxing world. Before the guys get into the weekends' fights, they react to a massive blunder by Tony Weeks in the Rolly Romero-Ismael Barroso fight. Later, they dive into Katie Taylor fighting at home in Dublin and what we can expect from her fight with Chantelle Cameron. Finally, they talk about Devin Haney vs Vasiliy Lomachenko and what it would mean for each fighter if they win. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. And we are back. Boxing with Chris Mannix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network, calling Cowherds Podcast Network. We've got a big week coming up in boxing, one of those weeks where you have multiple shows on multiple networks,

but because they are on multiple continents, you can watch them all at the same time. Katie Taylor makes her long-awaited debut in Ireland, which takes on Chantelle Cameron, for all the belts at 140 pounds. that is going to be a wild scene in Dublin. That's a fight that you can watch on DeZone. And on ESPN pay-per-view, Devin Haney, Vasily Lomachenko for all the belts at 135 pounds.

So if you're a boxing fan, clear your Saturday, man, you know, because by early afternoon on, you're going to have something to do. Well, as you know, May is a huge month for boxing. You've got Katie Taylor's homecoming in Ireland against Chantelle, Cameron. You've got Devin Haney and Vasily Lomachenko for all the belts at 135. Pay-per-view is always a great option, but I promise you there is nothing better than being in person for these title bouts. Well, Game Time is the fastest growing ticket app in the U.S. With tickets on everything, from premier boxing matches to the NBA and HLB playoffs to MLB regular

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We've got a lot more to talk about as well. We had just a travesty in Las Vegas this past week. and I want to get into that and some other news as well. To talk about that and much more to bring in my friend Dan Rayfield, long time boxing writer, the proprietor of Fight Freaks Unite, the terrific newsletter that you can subscribe to on Dan's social media handles. It's a great read every single time, Dan, post.

Dan, thanks for joining me, man. I assume you're going to be like me, just kind of settling in on Saturday for what should be a pretty good day. Absolutely, Chris. I am looking forward to both of those fights, the main events. And, you know, there's interesting undercard fights on both of these events as well. So like you mentioned, I'm going to clear my day starting around, I don't know, like whenever the Chantal Cameron and Katie Taylor event begins here on the East Coast, it'll be in the early afternoon. And I'll just go through probably until late night because the Devin Haney and the Lomachenko fight probably won't commence until around, you know, 11, 1130 at night.

So that is not, I've had the worst days to spend a Saturday. I love to be at either one of the events. It didn't work out for this one, but I'll take the consolation, which is to just make sure I'm watching everything. I'm bummed, man, that I'm not in Ireland. I understand it. My understanding was that if Amanda Serrano had been able to go through with her flight against Katie Taylor,

the U.S. DeZone broadcast team, at least part of it, would have been sent out to Ireland, but because it's effectively in all European affair out there, they're going to use the terrific team that they have on that side of the palm. But man, I was looking forward to connecting with my Irish brethren, to seeing my people to the countryside of Ireland. You got to work on your Irish accent.

I said to somebody over there, and somebody said to me, actually, it was like, that's just what the Irish want to see the Americans wandering the countryside looking for the rest. Listen, it is going to be, look, they're both really good matchups on paper. And, you know, I figured there'll be a good crowd

in the, you know, the diehards at the Loma, at the Haney Loma, fight for sure. Good, good matchup, good show overall. But you know as well as I do. That show in Dublin is going to be bonkers. Yeah, it's going to be wild. And they picked, look, I would have loved to a scene. I still would love to see Croke Park, but I like the idea of an intimate venue for Katie Taylor indoors. That's going to be rocking. And even Haney Lomachenko, smart move going to the MGM Grand and not trying to space it out at T-Mobile because I think the MGM Grand is the perfect spot for that. That or Mandalay Bay would have were ideal for that kind of fight with those types.

a fan base. We're going to talk about those fights. I want to say one thing about that, by the way. You know, I understand when they have these big fights and they want to go to a giant stadium and, you know, like Tyson Fury's donor, Anthony Joshua, Philip, Wembley Stadium, or, you know, the bigger fights in Vegas at Team Mobile and even other big venues that we've seen stadium type fights at AT&T Stadium. You know, I've covered a fight at Yankee Stadium. But not every great matchup, it requires 20,000 or 18,000 seats.

I mean, I go back and think to my days when I was a kid growing up and you would see some phenomenal, you know, big-time fights. Larry Holmes against Kenny Norton, big heavyweight championship fight. They did it at the Caesar's Palace Pavilion in Las Vegas. You know, $6,000 sold out, you know, $5,500. Same thing when, you know, Sugar Ray Leonard won his first world title against Benitez. Marvin Hagler won his first world title there. You had Salvador Sanchez and Wilfredo Gomez. All these fights took place in the Caesar's Palace Pavilion. Again, held like between 5 and 6,000 people. So you didn't need some mega facility. So for Katie to go home. I get they could have probably sold out or done a huge crowd, I guess,

but it's not necessarily needed in every single event. In this one, maybe, I'm not sure why they didn't for this particular one. I don't know if it was availability, but there's something to be said, as you mentioned, to have a great crowd where they fill up every seat and everybody's kind of on top of the ring and excited about it. Yeah, and I think if Serrano does wind up being the next opponent, that's when you go outdoors, that's when you go big, because not only do you have the backdrop of the great fight from last year. You got Jake Paul involved. You've got a lot of outside influences that will make the fight even bigger. So it could all work out for KTales. I'm going to talk about that fight. I'm going to talk about Hain Lomachenko. I've got some questions

for you on that. But Dan, it wouldn't be boxing if we didn't begin with some shit news. And what we saw last weekend, man, was just reprehensible. To set it up last Saturday at the cosmopolitan in Las Vegas, you had Rolando Romero and Ismao Barroso challenging for a vacant 140 pound title. Now, Romero was a heavy favorite in this fight, in part because Barroso was effectively a late replacement, in part because Barroso looks like he's 107. Like, let's be real about that. Why so young? He's listed at 40. Show me that birth certificate. I want to see that birth certificate where I believe in that guy is 40 years old. So there were a low expectations, you know, coming in for this fight. But as I'm watching it, you're seeing first round,

hey, Barroso's doing okay. Second round. Hey, Barroso's doing okay. Third round. He knocks Roli Romero down with a straight left hook. And you could tell Roli was not looking to engage with this guy. That was his first fight as a pure 140 pounder. He was in against the guy that could at least crack 22 knockouts in his 24 wins. So Roli wasn't looking to engage. So things were going pretty well for, you know, for Barroso in that fight. And then the ninth round comes around. And in the ninth round, early in it, Romero lands a short left hook. That had an impact, decent shot on Barroso.

He follows it up by shoving Barroso to the canvas, shoving it, right hand, straight down. Referee Tony Weeks calls it a knockdown. Bad call. No question about it. I think, and you can correct me when I'm finished here, but I think it might have been overturned, too, if the Nevada can do that if they look at the replay. But it turned out to be neither here nor there because minutes later,

while Roli was throwing wild punches, very few of them that were landing, none of them that were impactful. Tony Week steps in and stops the fight. He stops the fight. Dan, you and I have seen hundreds of fights, thousands of fights in boxing. Top of my head. And even over the last 48 hours, I've been thinking about it. I cannot think of a worst stoppage.

Barroso was up on all three scorecards on that time. He was just robbed of a fake knockdown moments before. And then Tony Week steps in and stops the fight. What was your reaction in that moment when Tony Week stopped the fight? My reaction, and I was watching it on Showtime, was the same as what the commentators on Showtime. Al Bernstein and Abner Morris basically at the same time, we're like, what?

Why is that being stopped? it was horrible. And it's for all on a lot of different levels, Chris. First of all, first and foremost, as far as the stoppage itself was just ridiculous. I've made the point in the last few days since that fight occurred. If you're going to stop a boxing match for that reason, why does boxing exist? Like if you, you said punches, there were from the time that the finishing sequence started, Roli through, I believe it was three punches.

And Tony stepped in after two and like the third punch was on the, way. So that one didn't land, but it didn't even matter because Tony was already making the decision. So he's basing it on two punches, neither of which landed. And as that's occurring, Barroso is throwing back and landing a decent shot, you know, in the other direction. And so I just have absolutely no idea what the fight was stopped. And so a couple things about it. Number one, in watching the replay, it appeared to me, though, that Tony Weeks was not in the right position. He was behind Roli Romero. So if Roli is throwing punches, he doesn't know he can probably tell he's throwing shots, but he has no idea if they're landing.

As I've made the point unless he's Superman, he has x-ray vision and can see through his back. He doesn't know if those shots are landing, which they clearly weren't on the replay. Number two, either he didn't see it or he just ignored it, but he should have been able to see, because Barroso's in front of him, see Barroso throwing the punch back and landing, number two. And furthermore, it made no sense to me because the other guy clearly is winning the fight. he'd had rolling down legitimately earlier in the fight. The only thing I've heard people say is, well, Barroso looked tired.

I said, yeah, okay, he looked tired. When is a guy looking tired grounds for a TKO? I mean, I've seen probably 100,000 fighters look tired in the ninth round of a main event type of fight. I mean, yeah, the guys get tired, but that doesn't mean you stop the fight. It was, look, you made the point. I've probably been, I'm older than you.

I've been watching boxing longer than you. So I think that I would agree with you. that even if you go back beyond when you've been watching boxing, I go back to watching boxing in starting in like the late 70s. To me, I've made the point. I've been watching boxing for over 40 years of my life. I've been covering it professionally for 23 plus years of my life. I've been ringside for like literally thousands of fights,

you know, undercarge's main events. I have probably watched. I actually estimated I've seen maybe 25,000 fights. I actually think I've dramatically underestimated the number of total bouts I have watched. You know, it's probably, frankly, it's probably over 50,000 boughs I have watched. And as I searched the inventory of my mind, I concur. I cannot think of a stoppage that's worse.

Now, some people have brought up to me, my partner at Big Fight Weekend, T.J. Reeves said, not that he disagreed to me, but he made mention of Melger Taylor and Julio Cesar Chavez. I was like, you know, there's a lot of controversy about that stoppage. Fine. But I wouldn't say it's a worse stoppage. You can disagree with the stoppage. But at least in the case of Taylor and Chavez, you have a referee in Richard steel who's seen Melchrick Keller get knocked down and clearly in a grueling brutal fight who

gets up and he's making an assessment asking him a question and Melchick's not looking at him doesn't respond to him anyway and whether you agree or you disagree he made the decision to stop the fight so we can argue that all you want but you can't argue that that it that there wasn't a reason for him to stop it even if you don't agree with it in the case of the roly fight being stopped there was no literal reason to stop it if the guy did not get hit with a punch and didn't get knocked down wasn't out on his feet wasn't injured wasn't complaining didn't turn his back wasn't looking for a way out nothing happened to stop the fight so i mean obviously chavez and taylor is a you know one of the most famous stoppages if not the most famous stoppage in the history of boxing in terms of

controversies but i would say that on its merit this is a much worse stoppage i may you know you again you may not agree with richard skill stoppage and taylor chavez but any of the most that knows boxing at least can intellectually understand why he stopped it, even if you don't like the stoppage. I can't intellectually understand and don't accept why Tony Weeks stop that fight. And what makes it worse, Chris, this is the worst part about it. You have Ishmael Barroso, who turns in what is in essence a career best performance against maybe the best opponent he has faced or thereabouts. He did fight Anthony Crolla for a lightweight title a few years earlier.

he's 40 years old. The chances of him getting another opportunity and being able to replicate that performance is, you know, I guess it's possible, but it seems unlikely. And so for arbitrary reasons that did not exist, this man's crowning achievement in the late going of his career may have been stolen away because he's up on all three scorecards. There's no indication that he's on the verge of being stopped. Yes, of course, there's still, you know, the rest of the ninth, 10th, 11th, the 12th rounds. fair enough. So you never know what's going to happen in those last few rounds. But up to that

moment, the man seemed to be on his way to a victory against Roli Romero, which would have been by far his biggest fight, biggest win, a world title. It changes the trajectory of his career, the way he's remembered, certainly his economic viability for the next fight in terms of making what would 100% be a career payday. All of that is just taken away in the blink of an eye for no reason. And what pisses me off more is that the Nevada State Athletic Commission refused to do an interview on the air with Jim Gray. They, you know, Tony, I guess he could have, but he took their advice, I guess, and didn't do an interview. And that just tells me you're trying to, what are you trying to hide? Just, you know, if this was the NBA, you know the NBA.

If there's some crazy controversial call at the end of a playoff game, they may not comment right there, but maybe there'd be a pool reporter allowed to go to talk to. That's exactly what happens after NBA games. There's a pool reporter allowed into the referee's dressing room to ask questions about the decisions that were made. That should have been the case there. Now, you mentioned, let me say something about Meldrich Taylor and Chavez. The argument for Taylor and Chavez is that Richard Steele should have let Meldrick Taylor take a beating for 10 more seconds so you could come away with a win or whatever, two more seconds, whatever it was.

That was not the case with this one. This stop, which was worse because Barroso was not taking a beating. He was not getting hit. He was not hurt at any point in time during that fight. The only argument that I can see for Tony Week is that in his mind, he's looking at Barroso's going, I'm not letting this 60-year-old man to wherever old he is, take another, take a big shot and potentially get seriously hurt.

But that's not a good argument. He was licensed to fight in Nevada. So he should be treated as any world championship fighter should be treated. If he had taken a big shot, that'd be a different story. And nobody should fool themselves that commissioners and the regulators and the referees don't have a conversation in certain instances, you know, maybe put a guy in a shorter leash in certain fights and other times.

I know that's happened 100%. You know, when Antonio Margarito's eye was messed up going into the fight with Miguel Koto, I know 100% because I basically was there when they were having the conversation and we're saying, you know, we're going to, you know, not that they're going to do anything on tour, but we're going to make sure we're going to keep money short leash. And if the eye is a problem, we're stopping the fight. and ultimately that is what happened. So I can't say that there was a conversation like that related to Barroso because he's 40.

But even if he was 40, there was no evidence in his past that he can't take his shot or that he's somehow at more of a risk. You mentioned about the NBA situation with the pool reporters after a ball game. Certainly, even if a pool reporter didn't go into a dressing room after a controversial call, you and I both know this happens in the NBA. It happens in the NFL. It happens in Major League Baseball, NHL, whatever, that at the very least, like the next day, you know, the league office would put out some kind of statement or an, clarification. And in this particular instance, the Nevada Commission is that clearinghouse of a

league office because they're the ones that are in charge of regulating the event. So the fact that we're here taping this, you know, a few days after the fight and there's still been, to my knowledge, no comment from the Nevada commission is pretty disgraceful, in my opinion. So the right thing to do, I think you and I would both agree, is to declare this fight in no contest. No, I don't agree with that. You don't. Okay. What do you think should be, what's the appropriate outcome to this? Well, the reason I say not to declare it a no contest is because, while I don't agree with the way it was ruled, there's nothing in the rule books that say a no contest should be declared or it's even up for the possibility of a no contest. And the reason is because it's akin to a balls and strikes call in major league baseball or a foul call, let's say, in the NBA. It's a referee's discretion.

In other words, it's his point of view. And that's not, you can't challenge that on replay, for example. If this was, you know, a, you know, did the ball go into the, you know, release point of an NBA shot before, after the final buzzer goes off, that you can adjudicate if a guy is safe at second base before he's tagged out, you know, and there's an argument. You can, you can look at the video and make the assessment and maybe change it on a replay. You can't do that on a judgment call. So I definitely don't agree at being in no contest. Well, I should say, Dan, in the NBA, there is a mechanism to appeal the outcome of a game. It very rarely, extremely rarely is granted.

Those appeals are rarely granted. But there is a mechanism in the NBA. But theoretically, you could have a game replayed. But it wouldn't be called, but the mechanism to do the game or redo the game or make a change wouldn't be on a foul call. No, I think the Mavericks did this. Remember the Mavericks said that there was a weird inbound situation where the Golden State Warriors got a free bucket because the Mavericks were told that they had the ball. on one end and nobody was down there. So it's that kind of judgment call,

that type of rule interpretation or whatever happened there. But Tony's not interpreting a rule. Tony is making his own assessment. Yeah, he's making a judgment. But that's his job to decide whether the box. So what should be the outcome then? Is it nothing?

Okay, we're in a situation where you have to, whatever your options are, it's you try to pick the least worst option. There's no good option. The good option would be let the fight continue and let it go to its natural. conclusion and if there's a knockout then the guy wins who knocks the other man out or goes to the scorecards and you know we see what happens that that's not happening you can't go back in time so now

what's the best result that could possibly be i'm not saying i like this but it's like literally the worst it's it's the it's the least worst response and that would be i guess to order a rematch but again my problem with that is the guy already did what you're supposed to do and i have no idea if Barroso can get to that level the next time around. The other thing about it is it wasn't a very good fight. Let's be honest. I mean, we're talking about the controversy of the ending, but getting up to that point of the ninth round, it was a terrible fight in my opinion.

So is there, is there a viability to do that? Does Showtime want to spend seven figures on that kind of event? Does anybody want to spend seven figures in that kind of event? Will it draw a TV audience? Is it going to sell any tickets? I mean, those are all hard questions because boxing is not like the NBA where there's a week schedule and they're just going to play who they're going to play. That's, we know, seven months, eight months, nine months ahead of time, you know, each individual

boxing event is going to go on its own merits. So if the rematch is ordered, you know, it becomes a problem because now who's going to show it, where's it going to take place? Are there going to be any ticket sales? Now you have other mandatory situations that are backed up. For example, when this fight was first made, when Alberto Pueo, who was the champion of the WBA was disqualified from being in the fight because of a positive drug test, when the WBA said, okay, Roley can fight Barroso for the title because Barroso was the mandatory already who had stepped

aside. He was on the undercard. They moved them up to the main event. In making that ruling, they said the winner of the fight has to fight the next mandatory, which had been ordered back when Roley against Puello and Barroso's situation was squared away in the first place, they would owe O'Hara Davies the next fight. So now they're infringing on O'Hara Davies' rights if they order a rematch. You've got Kenneth Sims, who was in a phenomenal fight in the TV opener on Showtime against Batyr Akhmadav. That was a sensational battle. That was a eliminator fight in that way class.

He won. That would back him up. So there's really no good answer. Now you're down to let's pick the least worst outcome. And the least worst outcome is probably of a menu of bad possibilities would be to order a rematch. I think that should go without saying. The WBA is the organization with jurisdiction there. They should order the rematch immediately.

And look, you and I disagree. I do think that whether it's in their rulebook or not, I think the Nevada State Commission should order a no contest. That was so egregious and so bad that they have to do something. Let's say they did order or not order. Let's say they did for whatever their reasons are. And again, I'm not sure by statute what they could point to that would be grounds to make it a no contest, unless there was like a failed drug test or something.

And they make things up as they go along and box. The commission does not make things up there to go along. The organizations may do that occasionally. But my question for you, I'm being nice. Here's the question for you, though, Chris. If they did declare to no contest, let's just say that that were the case. So then what? The title's now vacant.

You still have a bad to question. I don't care about then what? I don't care. I care about Barroso not having an L on his resume. That's what I care about because he didn't deserve it, because he got screwed over and robbed in that moment. Everything else I agree with you. It's complicated.

I don't disagree with that part of it, but the very first priority should be writing the wrong. And the wrong was Barroso having that fight stopped. It was clear as day. Objectively speaking, that fight should not have been stopped. Even if they made that in no contest, which I, based on my knowledge of the rules and regs, of both the commission and the WBA, I just don't think there's a method that they could actually do that. But let's say I'm wrong and they could. Now there's always the next step.

So are they going to order the rematch that Barroso and Roli fight for the vacant belt again? Maybe Roli won't fight for it. Maybe one of them will back out, you know? Keep in mind also, on Wednesday of this week, I'm not sure when this is going to post, but on Wednesday of this week, Alberto Pueil goes before the Nevada State of the Commission for the hearing related to his positive drug test and cause him to be stripped of the title. So with the W. I hope there are reporters there.

I hope there are reporters in that room for that because they need to be grilled that Nevada commission. They need to somebody's got to get them outside and ask them questions. What the WBA will do, the reason why they're waiting to see what the adjudication process takes place in Nevada because they're going to go by what the commission says related to Alberto Pueo. They put him as the champion in recess. So if there's a compelling reason, let's say, and he doesn't continue with this suspension, now you're in a jackpot where you got him as a claimant, you got Roli and Barroso, you got the next guy, O'Hara Davies. It's a mess. It's a mess.

It's a mess. I don't know how to figure it out. And honestly, I don't care. All I care about is that Barroso doesn't have that L. Dan, I tried to, it was like, for the last couple of years, I've been trying to write this story about the ripple effects of bad judging in boxing. I spent a lot of time talking to Maurer, who you and I both know has been robbed more times than I can count in bad decisions. He went to Puerto Rico and got robbed against Danny Garcia, among others.

And look, like, this is hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars these guys are losing because of incompetence with referees and with judges. And I just, I don't want to see Barroso have to suffer that. Like I said, Tony Weeks, and again, I don't think it was on purpose. I don't think he's corrupted. No, I don't think he's corrupted. No, not a really bad night. A really bad night.

So, but the end result is potentially you have taken away the crowning achievement and the biggest financial opportunity of this man's life at age 40 when he doesn't have a long time left in the sport. And that's really what it comes down to. And it breaks my heart. Yeah, Barroso began his career back in 2005. He was fighting in like Venezuelan ballrooms and bar rooms and worked his way up to the Anthony Crolla level at 135. This was his moment.

This was his crowning achievement. It is awful that it was taken away from. And I hope there is some kind of justice for him over the next couple of weeks. I hope at least when he went for dinner after the fight, he got a senior citizen's discount. I hope he had a lot of drinks after that as well. All right. In Vegas this weekend, we've got Devin Haney against Facil Lomachenko, massive fight. Devin Haney, the undisputed champion at 135. Lomachenko, the former unified champion at 135. These two guys have been dancing around each other for like three or four years.

Now, ever since Haney won that secondary title at 135, and the WBC in all their brilliance, decided to create the franchise belt. And here you go. And this all became a mess situation. But now here we are. Haney against Lomachenko. I've got an odd question for you right at the start. Hart. Should Haney be taking this fight? And I ask you this because Devin Haney is as big a

lightweight as you're going to see. He has been a lightweight for virtually his entire career. It is painful for him to get down to 135. When we see him in Vegas this week, he is going to be gaunt. He is going to be drained, you know, not an ounce of water probably on that body. And look, I think Haney's a favorite in this fight for a reason, but Lomachenko is a very live dog. And if you were anything less than 100% in this fight, Vasily Lomachenko, who has no problem making 135, is going to take advantage of it. So I think back then to the end of 2021, when Teafimo lost to George Campos, one of the first things he said afterwards was, I shouldn't have taken this fight. I wasn't physically able to make 135 in the ways that I used to. Do you think that Haney is making a mistake or at least taking a sizable risk in staying at this weight to fight Lomachenko?

I think no matter what the weight is, I mean, fighting Lomachenko is always a risk, number one. Number two, you know, he's made lightweight. I can't say it's been ultra-contrable for Haney, but he's done it and he's not suffered in terms of his performance, whether it was against Cambosis or against Jojo-Diaz, against Forhealonaris, or, you know, any of the guys that he's been fighting, his performance has not suffered. And you talk about the weight of Devin Haney, and like you said, he is a very big fighter for that weight class. I can remember going-

Do you see these guys at press conferences? Like, they look very much like two different weight divisions. No question. So back in 2019, that's when Matchroom Boxing signed Devin Haney. He's now with Top Rank and Lou Debella after going through the Cambosa situation. But when he first signed up with Matrum, they did a press conference to announce his signing, and he was there and his dad was.

there and, you know, it was around a big fight that was in Vegas, so I was at the press conference. And I can specifically remember, this is like around this time, 2019. So we're talking four years ago. And at that press comments, there was already the discussion of how much longer you're going to be a lightweight. He hadn't yet won a world title. He would go on to become one of the title holders, got the WBC interim belt was elevated. But even back then, those years ago, there was already the conversation about, are you moving up. And here we are now, all these fights later and, you know, several years later, he's still making 135. So I know that he and his dad has talked about if I win, whatever happens,

I still may stay at 135 to defend against one of the other big names, whoever it might be. I have to believe that whatever happens in this fight with Lomachenko, he's going to have to go up at some point. I mean, it's one thing to go up before you've done undisputed. Once you've done undisputed, and now he's going to be making his second defense. And I have to double check this, but I'm pretty sure that in the history, of the four-belt era, no four-belt champion has made more than one defense of those titles.

Either there's been a stripping or a vacating. You know, Ussick made one defense. Obviously, Devin made the one defense in the rematch against George Cambosa. But I do not believe that any of the other four-belt title holders, at least in terms of men, have made multiple defenses. So if he makes this defense against Loma and then goes up, there's nothing wrong with that. And there's a lot of guys he can fight it 140 pounds, whether he's, you know, in the top rank stable or he went back to matchroom, that he's not going to lack for quality opponents. So yes, he should take this fight. It's a big deal. It's a, you know, it's the great young, skillful fighter against the older veteran skillful fighter. You know, it's probably his biggest payday that could be made

presently. I know he wants to defend the titles. So I think he should, but I think this should probably be the last one. All right, so I... Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the

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This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Cliverts Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream,

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your home service project from start to finish. Or you can research and connect with local pros for your specific project. So download the free. Angie mobile app today or visit angi.com. That's A.N-G-I dot com. Yeah, I had somebody tell me in the know that, you know, about 10 days ago, he was weighing in at 142, 143. That felt to me like it was heavy. You know, losing 7 or 8 pounds for a guy of that size to get down to 135, that's a lot. So I am very curious to see how he makes this weight, what he looks like making the weight, what he looks like the next day, because if you're even a fraction off, Lomachenko's still

good enough to beat you. So that's the question I have for you, Dan, with Loma. He is the underdog, and we both agree he's a live underdog. But looking at what he's done since the Lopez loss, he knocks out Nakatani. That was a good win. Looks great. Yeah, looks great. Looks great. It looks great beating up Richard Comey as well. And then you get to the Jermaine Ortiz fight where he didn't look quite so great. Where Ortiz, who nobody ever heard of, goes the distance with him. and loses a pretty close decision. Looking at this fight, like how game an opponent is Lomachenko at this stage?

Well, I mean, if you take a look at the Jermaine Ortiz fight, you know, he did not look great in that fight, obviously. Were there factors other than maybe the talent level of Jermaine Ortiz? Who, by the way, I'm insulted because I had heard of him and watched him before. He's from Worcester. So I'm respecting my Massachusetts guys. Okay, it's more hyperbolic, right? Like he's came out of nowhere.

Came out of nowhere. So Loma was coming off of a 10-month layoff, which for him, unrelated to injuries, was a little bit longer than he would typically be out of the ring. He was coming back after a sabbatical because of everything that had been going on in Ukraine where he had stayed behind. Remember, when Cambosis ended up fighting Devin Haney, Devin Haney only got that fight because Lomachenko withdrew because he decided to remain back home in Ukraine when the war with Russia had started. So now it's come full circle. Haney won and now they're fighting each other in the fight that he should have probably been in for the bells to last time. around. But be that as I may, I think there were things on his mind related to Ukraine going into the Ortiz fight. He was coming off of the layoff. I think Ortiz, you know, one of the things about

Lomachenko is he's always sought to fight the best guys. And even though Ortiz looked good and made a good name for himself and increased his reputation off of the loss, no one was looking at that fight thinking it was any kind of a challenge for Lomachenko. He's a guy in my mind. I've covered his entire career. I believe that Lomachenko was a type of athlete that thrives on fighting the, elite competition and maybe mentally is not as geared up when you're fighting a Jermaine Ortiz compared to, say, Devin Haney for the undisputed title, I think there's definitely some merit in that. So, you know, the Lomachenko that may not look great against Ortiz, anybody that thinks that's

indicative of his career going forward, you're just being a fool to underestimate this guy. This guy has done incredible things in the sport of boxing. And even including the loss to T. Fima Lopez, you know, he was within a whisker of winning that fight and ended up having shoulder surgery, you know, a few days or a week after the fight. So they're clear, I mean, I'm not making excuses for him, but the facts of the facts, he underwent, you know, and had a serious, you know, a shoulder surgery after that fight. So, you know, I mean, Haney, he's going to need to be on his game. But I think that Haney, you know, this is a guy that trains his rear end off.

He doesn't cut corners in my experience of following him and watching him and all that. this is like as high a class fight as you can make. Two master boxers, two guys who can get in there and trade if necessary, who aren't afraid to slug it out if they have to, but are also all about the skills and the speed and the angles and the defense. It's a high, high class fight. I mean, you know, it's probably one of the best fights that could have been made in the way class, and there's a lot of good fights in the lightweight division that we could think about.

Yeah, at Haney, one of the most disciplined fighters out there. Like when he gets a game plan, it's a good one. follows it to perfection. You cannot knock him off that game plan. I guess I'm most interested, Dan, in seeing what Haney looks like in the second half of the fight. I've heard some people say that Lomachenko isn't as powerful at 135,

and that's probably true, but he was strong enough to knock out Hora then Aris at 135. He was strong enough to beat down Luke Campbell at 135. So he's got enough pop at 135 to hurt Devin Haney, and we have seen Devin Haney hurt some in the past. So I guess

my reading this fight, second half, half. If Devin Haney is as strong in the second half, as he is in the first, I think he wins a decision. If he's half a beat slower and a little sloppier and tries to bang with Lomachenko as a result, this is a fight he could lose. And he could even get stopped in, I think. That's how dangerous I think Lomachenko is. I don't think that Haney at any point is going to try to trade with him. But he all, Dan, you've interviewed a million times. Like, I love Devin. I've covered his fights a lot. But he has this feeling about his power, right? Like he wants to be known as a power puncher in boxing. That's not really him. So I can see him going in there and trading a couple of

times. I may be a little bit biased about this from this standpoint. I was there at ringside when he fought Antonio Moran, which was his first fight after he signed with Matron. That was like the worst thing that ever happened to him because he knocks up and everything, that's him. So he, I was sitting like on that side of the ring. I don't know, were you there doing to zone that? No, no, that was pre or no, no, I wasn't there. That was at the MGM and D.C., right? National art, yeah. So I live like, you know, about 30 minutes from that casino, and I went over to cover the fight.

I was still at ESPN at the time. And he knocked him out in the corner that was like four feet from where I was sitting. So I was as close as you could be to wear that knockout. And that was as explode. I called it the knockout of the year. That was like the biggest knockout that you could see. So Haney has the potential to do that kind of damage. Obviously, Moran is at a certain level, not at the same level of a Lomachenko.

But he thinks he can do that. Lomachenko, though, as you mentioned, as a lightweight, he did have the knockout against Lomaris, and he did that after getting off the deck and also having, that was the first time he had the bad shoulder. He didn't knock out Jose Padraza in his next fight, but he stored two knockdowns in a pretty one-sided fight, and Padraza is known as a very durable fighter. Only got stopped once. That was by Dravanta Davis when he won his first world championship. He stopped Anthony Carrola.

He put Luke Campbell down, even though it went 12 rounds. He obviously got the decision against T. Fimo, but he's done damage at lightweight. He knocked out Nakatani. He was begging, he was begging Andre Ruggier to stop the Richard Comey fight in the middle rounds. He beat up on Comey. So the only guy, uh, as a lightweight that he hasn't either dropped or stopped or done damage to was the Germain Ortiz fight. And since that's what we most remember since it's what have you done for me lately and that was the last fight, I think that's the reason why there are some questions about Loma. Not to mention, look,

he's older. He's fighting a guy that's much, you know, like a decade younger. He has not been super active. He is just when you look at the two men together, you know, it does look like Devin Haney is in a different weight division because he's taller and bigger and broader. But look, I love the matchup because you have Lomachenko is fearless. He'll fight anybody. He's proven that time and time again. And Devin Haney wants to have another, you know, big performance and have another great name on his record. Clearly, you know, no knock on the other fighters that Devin Haney has faced.

but when he beat Lenaris, you know, some would say it was Lomachenko's leftovers and the leftovers a lot of guys. You know, he beat George Cambosas. That was a good win and he went on the road and everything, but nobody's putting George Cambosis on the pound for pound list. The Gamboa that he beat was a largely diminished Gamboa. You know, the Jojo Diaz was a guy that was, you know, just not as talented and really a guy that had made his best fights at 130. So for Devon, this is the biggest name, the biggest deal fight, I think that he has had. And there'll be a real feather in his cap. particularly if he could stop Lomachenko. Yeah, it is a gazillion dollars at stake for Devin Haney.

If he stays at 135, he's a promotional free agent. Theoretically, he can go and make a Tank Davis fight with PBC for later this year. And if he goes to 140, there'll be a bidding war for him. Whether it's top rank, try to bring him back. We know match for him, Eddie Hearn, they're going to want to bring him into the fold as they beef up their stable at 140. So a lot on the line financially for Devin Haney as well. overseas we've got katie taylor and shantelle cameron and i love katie taylor all the credit in the world to katie taylor amanda serrano backs out of her fight because of an injury like a month

after it was announced haiti turns around and does something very rare for her goes on social media and demands a fight with chantelle cameron who is the top dog at 140 coming off a win against jessica mccaskell a few months earlier uh this is a difficult fight for katie taylor dan And I've heard some people argue that it's a more dangerous fight for Katie Taylor than an Amanda Serrana rematch would be. Where do you stand on that? I think that's probably accurate. I mean, you know, that's the very close fight that they had, notwithstanding from last year. That was obviously that classic that sold out the garden, you know, really created such a buzz.

But I think it's probably a tougher fight. I think the fact that she's on home soil for the first time, that that's maybe good for her in one sense, but there's going to be so much pressure on her in another sense that makes whoever was going to, to be in the ring with her, dangerous because of all the hoopla that's going to be going on. The thing about Katie Taylor is if you ever, and I know you've met her many times interviewed, I've met her a few times also.

Like she's literally like one of the nicest people you ever could meet. Like even when she was calling out Shantelle Cameron on social media, she did it in such a nice and polite way. She, I mean, so she's a very humble, like I think down to earth, just a nice human being.

And then the bell rings and she goes after you like she wants to kill you. And so if she has that mentality when she goes in the ring with Chantelle Cameron, it's a fight that I think she probably should win. I know that Cameron is also undefeated. I was looking at Chantel's resume. You know, she does have the win against Jessica McCaskill. Obviously, that was a very big victory for her. That aside, I mean, she's beat some other good opponents also,

but there's nobody that truly stands out to me compared to not only the opponents that Katie has faced, but the number of them that she has faced, because it's just one after the other, after the other, after the other, in a long tenure as the champion at 135. And a lot of people look at the fight and say, well, you know, Katie's moving up in weight. Is that going to be an impact? Is that going to make a big difference? So I would simply say to the people that are suggesting that that may be a problem is she's not a long-term fighter at 140 pounds, but she did go up and wait a couple years ago and challenge for a title and win that title against a good opponent back a few years ago. So she has at least that one time where she did fight in that

weight division. And she won the fight. And it wasn't like she won the fight and it was a close fight. She won the fight, you know, in a clear kind of manner. So what was the, the girl's name was Christina Lindartu that she won that title from? This was what, 2019. And that was a good win for her. I mean, and now she's been fighting it lightweight ever since. Now she's going back to fight for the undisputed title. But you have to love the attitude of if I can't make this rematch, everybody wants to see with Serrano, who was the undisputed champ at featherweight, who's going to come up to challenge me a featherweight, at a lightweight, then you know what?

We can do that rematch when she's healed up from her injury. But in the meantime, I'm going to do what she was trying to do, which I'm going to go up a weight division, and I'm going to try to fight for the undisputed title at 140. So, you know, Katie's, I won't say she's at the end of her career, but she's certainly closer to the end in the beginning. She's in her mid-30s now. She's been a lot of tough fights.

She's making her legacy. and if she can get this win, she's already a first ballot hall of famer. This puts her in the conversation, in my opinion, is maybe the greatest women's boxer of all time. Obviously, it's not the same length of history and the number of people in the conversation

as we were talking about men's boxing. But this is that type of legacy-making kind of fight. And you can expect a tweet from friend of the podcast, Clarissa Shields, for that comment. Oh, by the way, by the way, Clarissa Shields could be in that conversation also. She just hasn't had a professional career quite as long as Katie. I think, listen, I have ample respect for both of those women of what they have accomplished,

you know, as women's boxing has gone to another level in terms of public interest and just the universe of quality athletes to compete. You know, when I first started writing about boxing, you know, you had Christy Martin and Lucia Riker and, you know, a few other women that were very good. Anne Wolfe is another one, for example. The problem there was you knew they were talented and you knew they were really good. they just had nobody to fight. Layla Ali and Anne Wolf never fought.

That always irritated me. That would have been a huge fight. But there was no, you know, in today's game, if two of the people don't want to fight, there's at least another person you look at and say, okay, that would be a good fight. You know, the difference I make from what we did back then to what goes on in women's boxing now is back then, if you were a writer or a fan and you were interested in a women's boxing match, it wasn't a matchup. You were like, I want to watch Layla Ali fight.

I want to watch Anne Wolf fight. I want to watch Lucia Riker fight. I want to watch Christy Martin fight. Today, it's not just driven by the particular athlete. It's, I want to see Katie Taylor fight Serrano. I want to see Katie Taylor fight Shandall Cameron. I want to see, you know, Clarissa Shields fight against Savannah Marshall. We're interested in matchups now.

And the reason for that is because the universe of quality women athletes in boxing is dramatically greater and improved than it was, you know, 15 or 20 years ago when I was, you know, first starting to do all this. So that universe to be able to talk about Claressa or about Katie potentially as literally the greatest of the women's boxers of this era, which is really the women's boxing history in many senses, that this is a big deal fight for it. And by the way, if Chantelle Cameron wins and knocks Katie Taylor off the undefeated list and retains her titles, I don't know if it puts her in that conversation, but it's certainly a career-defining victory for the woman. No question about it. And the depth of women's boxing has grown, you know, by the month, it seems like it continues to improve. these women are out there trying to make big matchups.

Katie Taylor did not have to move up to 140 to fight Chantelle Cameron. She could have fought someone from the schoolyard in Ireland and still sold the place out and made a boatload of money. She went up and took a really tough test. I think this is going to be as challenging, if not more, as Amanda Serrano, because Chantel Cameron is younger. She is bigger. She doesn't have quite as many miles on her tires as Katie Taylor does because Katie has been boxing at the highest level. really since like 2012 at the Olympics and has fought all the best, you know, since she turned pro after 2016.

And she's bought some tough fights, as you noted. Most of her fights have been really, really physical, really, really tough. And we've seen Katie's legs not quite as bouncy as they used to be early in his career. What I think is going to be a difference maker, Dan, is the atmosphere here. Like, it's going to be exciting for Katie Taylor. But I don't know how Shantel Cameron's going to handle it. She had to tell Cameron fought Jessica McCaskill in Abu Dhabi in front of, you know, fans that were not really there to cheer on the women's boxing match,

or at least we're not vocal in that crowd. This is going to be different. She is going to be public enemy number one in three arena on Saturday afternoon. I wonder how she handles that because she's also going into this fight thinking, I might have to decapitate Katie Taylor to get a decision. Like I might have to do something special to get the deep. these judges to give Katie Taylor a loss in Ireland. Like, I wonder how that affects Chantelle Cameron coming into this fight.

I mean, she's going to have to just fight her fight. You know, the professional boxers, whether you're a female boxer, a mailboxer, on the road, not on the road. I mean, it's unfortunate that we even have to have the conversation that there might be that type of home cooking, so to speak. But you know what? They know what they're in for. You've got to put your trust and faith in the system and that it will work.

It doesn't always work. but the bottom line is the public will watch the fight and we'll know who the rightful winner is, whatever happens. Obviously, there's a knockout that takes all the issues away unless it's a knockout like Tony Weeks calls where nothing happened. That's a different story. But I suspect that, look, I know yes, it's going to be hard to get a win in Dublin for her homecoming. But Shantelle Cameron has got nothing to lose. She's going as the underdog, I think. She's going in. She's going to make the career money she's ever made. And the whole world's going to get to witness, whatever happens and we'll see you know she's as good as she thinks she is and she can back it up and even if

she backs it up but doesn't get the the nod it sucks but at least we'll have seen it it's not like they're doing this without anybody able being able to witness it so you know that's part of the mentality you have to have as a fighter is go on the road i think about you know some of the great men's fighters of today's game i mean look at like alexander usik the guy fought his entire career on the road i mean he had a handful of fights in ukraine at the beginning of his career but every single one of his championship fights have taken place other than when he's had the rematch against Anthony Joshua that took place in in what do you call it? That was the, was it in Middle East? Yeah. In the Middle East. All I think off top of my head, every one of his title

fights has been in the other guys territory, whether it's Germany or Latvia or in the United States. I mean, you can go on right down the line. Look at all of his fights. He's always been the road warrior. So, you know, and he's not gotten a bad decision. and Chantelle Cameron can look at that and say, you know what, I'm not the only one that's going to fight on somebody else's turf. Yeah, it's going to be fun, that's for sure. I just can't wait to see the atmosphere on TV, I'm sure. By the way, it should be a good fight because of the way these two women,

they're both not afraid to get in there and fight it out. No, it could go a bunch of different ways. I'm excited to see it. Last thing for you, we had Jana Beck Al-Halli. I think I'm saying that right. Defend his WBO middleweight title this past weekend, knocking out Stephen Butler in the second round. It is, it was a defense that was forgetable.

That's for sure. And the problem with Jannebec right now, Dan, is that the middleweight division is as down as it's ever been before. You've got title holders who don't want to fight. You've got title holders that are largely anonymous. You've got titles that are vacant in the case of the IBF and the WBA. Well, WBA's got a title holder at the moment. But I just, I look at Janibak and I see a talented guy. I just don't know what top rank does with them.

Like, I don't know where they go. It's kind of the same problem that the previous. WBO title holder had in Demetrius Andrade, but this might be worse. Like Andrade at least was a trash talking American. And he had Eddie Hearn's money behind him. Janibak is Kazakhstan doesn't talk a lot of trash. And even though top rank is bankrolling him, it's not like they're going to be able to throw out a gazillion dollar offers

to get somebody to fight him. Is there anything out there for him? And why does the middleweight division suck so much? Well, I mean, there really isn't anything that jumps to mind. And that's not Janibek's fault, obviously. I mean, he can only fight the guys that are there. You know, it depresses me that, you know,

you mentioned Andre. Well, Andre decided to leave the weight class rather than defend the mandatory against him. I'll fight that top rank was interested to do. Maybe not necessarily at the exact level. I really blame him, though. Like, he had done so many of those crappy defenses before. Like, and he was growing out of his body as well.

Okay, but this was the first time there was actually top rank had an interest in putting on the fight. Now, it may be not at the exact level of the money that he wanted, but it was not like, as far as I know, it wasn't like crazy, you know, it wasn't like way, way, way off or anything. But okay, even if you take that into account and say, okay, it was time from the go to wait, he was coming off an injury, okay, fine. The thing that always irritated me about what happened with Janinebeck, once he became,

you know, he was elevated from interim. He scored, you know, had become an interim champion by the destruction of Danny Dignam. And then, of course, we saw what happened with the fight against Andre, it did not happen. So he was elevated to the full WBO title holder. So now the next mandatory comes right, and who was in that position? that could have had that title fight any time. That was Jaime Mungia. That would have been a great fight.

Now, that would have been a fight that I think easily was, yes, they were on separate broadcasters. Jaime, obviously on DeZone because he's with Golden Boy, Janet Beck being on ESPN platforms because he is with Top Rank. But that was a fight where I think that Top Rank, you know, with the right offer or the right circumstances, would have had no problem. I agree. Because Mungia is like not the champion, but certainly the A side, the bigger name, the bigger fan base,

kind of like when they made a deal for Jose Ramirez, who was more on even terms, I guess. Took a boatload of money to fight Hooker. Yeah. But they could have made a deal, but Mungia didn't want that. So he ended up fighting, you know, Denzel Bentley, who, you know, hung in there and lost, even made Janubeck look bad that first offense.

The fight that he did the other night against Stephen Ballard, they had to go through the WBO ratings, pick a guy that would come for the budget that was willing to get in the ring for Janibek, and he got blown out. and, you know, we talked about the bad job that Tony Weeks did in the stoppage. You know, I have always had respect for Tony and I have a lot of respect for Jack Reese, who was the referee that night.

But Jack Reese had a bad night the opposite reason. He waited way, way, way, way too long to stop that fight between Janet Beck and Butler. What do they do with him next, though? You know, I wish you would have fought Mongia. I don't know if there's a way to ever make that comeback. Mungia does have the fight coming up in the super middleweight division against Devereignchenko coming up this summer. I don't think that's cool. I think he's done a middleweight too.

I don't think Mungia is coming back down. You're probably right, Chris. So you say what's out there? I mean, the division's terrible. Triple G is given up two belts. He's in semi-retirement. Who knows if we've seen the last of them. When the biggest name middleweight title fight that's out there is Erislondi Lara,

who has been elevated once Triple G retired, and he's fought absolute terrible opponents in terms of middleweight, the way he got his belt and the way he defended. It's just been ridiculous. He's fighting Danny Garcia, who's obviously a good fighter and has been for a long time, but he's fighting a former junior welterweight and welterweight title holder. They're going to do the fight at a catchweight. I don't think it's been 100% determined. I'm told it'll be like either 155 or 156 in the middleweight defense.

And that's like your biggest fight in the weight class. And they're not even real middleweights. I mean, Lara's really a junior middleweight. Danny's really a welterweight. Laura's hold on that belt is kind of preposterous in my opinion. And then you have Falco who's going to Germany to fight a guy that most people never heard of, whose name I can't even think of off the top of my hand, after a purse bid that was relatively low money.

I mean, those are your champions. So, Janibak... Marvin Hagler is rolling over in his grave right now, Dan. I mean, I think it's very clear that if Triple G's actually done... What do you think about that? What's your gut feeling on that? Is Triple G done? I mean, never say never, but at the moment, he doesn't have a title. He doesn't have a backer in terms of television.

And he has high expectations of what his money should be, because he got used to the big money he was making for the DeZone fights and then once he got to even the bigger level when he fought on pay-per-view against Canello, which was still back in his HBO days, and then even when he fought the lesser DeZone fights, he was making crazy money for Zerameda. And he was making big money for, you know, going overseas when he fought in Japan against the Marada. So I think there's people out there, Desone included, ESPN included maybe even Showtime slash PBC. I think they would pony up seven figures to have him fight in the right kind of fight. But could he make

like, I don't know, three or four million dollars, I guess that's possible. But I don't think he can get 10. Like, so he's got to decide what am I willing to fight for? And he's made so much money that generations of triple Gs, quadruple Gs and couple Gs should be set for, you know, the next many, many decades. So to the best of my knowledge, he, he's not sure what he wants to do. He's been enjoying himself in Florida, taking his son to his hockey practices and, and doing his thing.

And, you know, if we've seen the end of triple. Triple G, he's had a great career. He'll go with it all of fame. I just disappointed that it would have ended so meekly with that very forgettable third fight against Canello. Yeah, and it's a little bit surprising because right after that Conella fight, Triple G was like, I'm not retired. I've got two belts. I'm still active. And, you know, anyone could have seen what happened coming, right? Like the, the mandatories and all the stuff that he would have to do. He knew that going into the fight. Yeah, the people around him should have known that the money wasn't going to be there. Like, nobody's putting up, you know, $8 million or whatever he might be looking

for him to fight Aristlandi Lara, not in a guarantee any way. You can go on pay-per-view, but roll the dice and see who's going to buy it. I mean, I think a Lara fight against Triple G for what's available in the middleweight division would have actually been a pretty solid fight right now. That's a showtime championship boxing kind of fight, you know, but he's only going to make like a million and a half, two million bucks for that. I don't think it's a paper view. No, no, it's not a pay-per-view, but can you make the fight and do it for a price point

that both guys would come for? It's hard to say because even Laura fighting, you know, the very very very very good. very lower level type of guys that he fought in those, you know, Spike O'Sullivan and, and, you know, Thomas LaManna and those types of opponents, he was making like seven figures for those fights. Now I'm going to fight Triple G. He's going to want more than that. That cornflake Lamata fight was a Fox headliner. I remember watching that. Yeah, good Lord. I was at that, but it was over about 12 seconds. I mean, so those are the way that's the way that is a legitimate title. Yeah, I think Gaddi's done, Dan. I think he's done.

He just turned 41 years old. If he wasn't going to take him. the Mungia fight this time around. I know Golden Boy tried. They made an effort to make that fight. If he didn't want to take that fight, I don't know why he'd want to take it, you know, three months from now, four months from now. And as I look at 154, yeah, Jermal Charlo's there and maybe if he collects some belts quickly, that that might be an appealing fight to him. But that's like a year and a half away before we see Jermal. As we're talking about the middleweights, we never even brought up the other Charlotte who's had he had the WBC title for a while. And literally, in a few weeks, it will be two years since his last fight. Now, I know he's had

a back problem. He's had some outside the ring issues. But people mention Charlo, but it's one thing a guy takes a year off. I mean, that's like unfortunately standard operating procedure with some of your bigger names than boxing. When you get to two years, like I don't even think you can put him in the conversation. He didn't like in a legitimate rankings. With nothing scheduled. Two years and you have nothing scheduled.

You know, who knows? Now, I keep hearing the rumors that he's going to come back and fight in June. They were going to try maybe again to do he was, had had the last two years or before he, went on the sabbatical the year of his last fight and the previous year he had fought on the Juneteenth weekend in Houston. But I don't think that's happening now because the June schedule for Showtime is done. Yeah. I don't know.

So who knows when we're going to see him back in the ring? I mean, like Eddie Hearn said recently that Charlo called him about fighting Canello. He wanted that fight. He's calling Eddie Hearn. He's mentioning to meet your Sandraid's name, which you know gets me excited, but I don't think that's going to happen at this point. Like the WBC, not to go down this rabbit hole, but the WBC's position on this is ridiculous. Like I have tremendous sympathy for what Charles is going through.

And if you want to make him like champion in recess, which is something the WBC does regularly, that's perfectly fine. Give him an opportunity to get his belt back if he wants it. But two years of holding a title like this hostage is wild. It's wild. And you can be supportive and still be a business at the same time giving other fighters opportunities. WBC is not doing that. They did fill the vacant interim title.

with Carlos Adomas. Yeah, who's just hanging around. Well, no, what they did in that ruling was they basically said when Charlo comes back, whatever that will be, I don't know if they gave him a stern deadline, but he can have an optional. They gave Adomis the ability to have an optional and then declared, after those options are done, they shall fight next in the mandatory. So Adamus is coming back in late June on Showtime against Julian J. Rock Williams,

the former unified champion at 154, who is now fighting as a middleweight. But even if that fight happens June 24th and Adamas wins, there's still, at least at this moment, no sign of when Charlotte would come back. So Adamas would have to then wait for Charlotte to return and then fight him in the next fight, which means probably at the earliest, the end of the year. He should be elevated. He should be elevated. I mean, and I never want to see a guy get his title taken away,

but it gets to a certain point where what's the old thing? The rubber hits the road. And like you mentioned, if they utilize a champion in recess, which I don't love, but this would be the time to actually utilize it. Say, listen, deal with your. problems. Take care of your family situation. Take care of your personal problems. Take care of your injury. Whatever is going on. When you come back, you can have the first shot if you're healthy. And just move on. I mean, and believe me, there are bigger names and more significant fighters than

Charlo that have had that situation happen. I also don't think, Dan, he's going to fight at 160. Like, he's talking about fighting Canello. That's 168. He's talking about fighting Andrade. That's at 168. Like, he's a big guy. Like, I don't know that he's going to be, you know, defending that title, whenever he comes back. So we could be at two and a half years before that belt actually gets to Fed. It should be Adamas. Adamas has one fights. He's earned that opportunity. He should be the full title holder right now. How do we get on the day? I can't really disagree with that. I mean, you know, I've had many philosophical conversations through the years and that's sort of about these sorts of things with Mauricio Suleiman, who is the president of the WBC. And I'm not, you know,

and I'm not knocking him for it. I just, I don't, and I haven't asked him specifically recently about this. I've never had like it articulated to me what the purpose for this specific one is to just not make a move with the belt. And I want Mauricio on this podcast. I have my producer, Adam Groscia, gets a list of prospective guests for me about once a week. And Maricio's name is right at the top of that list. I want having him to appear. Is he declining to do it or you just haven't gotten to talk? I think she hasn't really connected yet.

Look, Maricio, I think as a person as you, I think you believe as well as a very good guy. very good person. I just think the way he runs his business is wild. And I think it's often, often quite frankly, touching on corrupt. It's, it's, it's hanging around that line, Dan, with, I'm not going to talk about. I'll say this. I don't, I don't necessarily believe that. What I will say, though, is, and I'm not making excuses, believe me, because anybody that's known me for any length of time or read my material or listened to me, I've had extremely pointed in, in harsh things to say on all the sanctioning bodies at one time or another. Maricio, I'll defend him here for a quick minute.

He has a hard job. He's a great politician, and you got to service all the sides of the party, so to speak. And it's not easy, especially you know this in boxing. You've been around a long time also to get a lot of different people that have a lot of different points of view on the same page. So he tries hard. He's a much better politician, in my opinion, than his father was. And his father obviously was the president of the WBC for decades before he passed several

years ago. So I've said, and I've told this, Maricio, in person. He knows that I think this. I think generally speaking, he's done a very good job with the WBC. There are a few points of contention that I do have. Nothing will ever be perfect. And I've told them this, we've had this conversation over nice dinners in Vegas and that sort of stuff. That the whole thing with the franchise title and a few other things here and there.

That's what I'm talking about. That's like greedy. That simple greed creating the franchise belt is a way to keep your big stars fighting for WBC titles and collecting those fat sanctioning fees as a result. That's greed. The Charlo thing should not be that difficult. Like, I agree, it's complicated because you do have a lot of politics involved in all this. But some of these things are pretty cut and dry, Dan. Like the franchise championship was one of the worst ideas in the history of sanctioning bodies. I agree with that. And the Charlo's situation is getting more bizarre by the day why he's refusing to make Charlo champion in recess and allow Carlos

Adamez to be elevated to that top spot. There are just some basic fundamental questions that I don't know what the answers are. I can't argue with that. Those are two definite things that are sore spots. I grant you. But my point, if you take a step back and just look at the overall picture, in terms of the way that he has operated,

I think has been overall pretty good. I got to be honest. And I would believe me if I thought it was not. And Mauricio knows this. I would tell it to him. I would tell him privately, and I would say it on a podcast or in a story or a column. You know, nothing is perfect.

It is a work in progress. But by and large, they've done a lot of good things with a couple of exceptions that that irk both you, me, and many others. I'm just going to chase Maricio down in Vegas with a microphone. By the way, knowing Mauricio, how I know him, I think that he would be perfectly willing to do your podcast. I'd love to do it. I'd love to do it in person, though.

I'd love to sit down with them face to face and have that conversation because I have been pretty pointed in my criticism. I think all the criticism has been fair, frankly. but like I would love to have that conversation with him. I'm going to say this also. I'll give Maricio a credit for this too. He's not going to take the criticism personally because he understands. Look, I see him at fights.

He shakes my hand. He knows I criticize him all the time. Like I do think he's a very good guy. I just take issue with the things we just talked about, those things. But the thing in boxing is there are certain people where if you said or wrote the kinds of things in your criticism, fair or unfair about somebody else. in the business, they'd give you the cold shoulder. They would try to make your life difficult. They wouldn't return your call.

They would be a real pain in the ass. Maricio accepts his position. He understands it. And, you know, he's, I'm sure he doesn't love being criticized. I don't know anybody that does. But, you know, he doesn't take it personal. And I actually appreciate that because, again, I've had my criticism of him. But we have forged a nice relationship.

Again, I don't take any shit, but I'm happy to say what I think. but in the end, you know, you do what you got to do. And if you have to criticize, you criticize. And he takes it like a man. You know, let's put it like this. As a sanctioning body president, he's got a good chin. I will end it with that. Follow Dan Rayfield on Twitter at Dan Rayfield 1.

Subscribe to the Fight Freaks Unite substack. You can find a link to that on Dan's Twitter page and across his social media channels. Dan, always appreciate the conversation, man. Thank you very much, Chris. Enjoy the fights this weekend. NBA playoffs. And when we come back, my picks for the weekend. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's

Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for Raw,

filtered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what we?

went down and tried to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, time now for this week's picks. And because this is a huge championship boxing weekend with two major fights, two major cards, I'm going to give you two picks to lock in on. So get your parlias ready and get ready to make some cash. First up, over in Ireland, Katie Taylor, Shantelle Cameron, all the belts at 140 pounds. Katie Taylor right now is a minus 180 favorite over at Fandul.

So it is being looked at as a competitive fight. She is minus 130 to win this fight against Cameron by decision. That's the number I'm locking in on going into this event. Look, it's going to be a competitive fight. Chantel Cameron is a very good fighter. But I think Katie Taylor is more battle tested. I think that she's going to be sharp at this weight class. and frankly, I don't see three judges not giving Katie Taylor decision in Ireland.

I hate to take that approach and try to bring the politics of boxing into it. But Katie Taylor, in her first fight on Irish soil as professional, I'm just not seeing it. I think the judges are going to rule in favor of Katie Taylor on some of these closer rounds. And I think she's going to pull out a decision. So Katie Taylor, minus 130, make that first bet. Now, in Las Vegas, you've got Devin Haney against Vasily Lomachenko, all the belts at 135. Haney right now, minus 280 favorite Lomachenko plus 205 underdog. Haney at minus 155 to win by decision.

Lomachenko plus 330 to win by decision. Now, I have gone back and forth on this because I think at his best, Devin Haney is better than this version of Vassili Lomachenko. I'm just not convinced that Haney coming into this fight at this weight is going to be at his best. I think Haney is depleted at this point at 135. And I think Lomachenko, even though he didn't look great against Jemaine Ortiz, I think he's still got enough left for one more big performance. We're talking about an all-time great who has been tested against some of the better names

in boxing at 126 at 130 and now at 135. I think Lomachenko is going to bring it in this fight, and I think he's going to get to Devin Haney and start to touch him a lot more in those later rounds when Haney starts to fatigue. So Lomachenko plus 330 by decision. Hear that again. Lomachenko plus 330 to win by decision. That is my upset of the weekend. I'm riding with facility Lomachenko one more time to get the upset over Devin Haney.

Those are my picks and as always gamble responsibly. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Dan Rayfield for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick you here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it.

with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.