The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Al Bernstein and Stephen Espinoza stop by

Episode Date: July 8, 2022

Chris talks with the legendary boxing broadcaster, Al Bernstein about Claressa Shields getting back in the ring to take on Savannah Marshall and what it will do for the sports. They also dive into the Ray Vargas-Mark Magsayo and what we can expect from that. Later, the President of Showtime Sports, Stephen Espinoza joins Chris to discuss the latest with Boxing on Showtime. #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. All right, Al Bernstein is here. Longtime boxing commentator, Showtime Boxing analyst on Saturday. Al will be ringside in San Antonio for the 126-pound world title fight between Mark McSayo and former 122-pound champion Ray Vargas.

That fights at the Alamo Dome. You can see that on Showtime. I got to tell you, Al, San Antonio starting to grow on me a little bit as a boxing town. I know you've been back a few times in the last couple of years. I'm starting to like San Antonio as a boxing town. Yeah, San Antonio has a rich history of champions in the past. people like Jesse James Lehan, so many others. And lots of boxing fans down there.

And the city itself is a really great city to visit. Nothing better than the River Walk. And they're starting to, you know, now back in the boxing business, Bam Rodriguez, fighting down there and this fight going down there and others. So it's great to see. I love when a city. It's kind of like Minneapolis in recent times, right, with their great venue there, the Armory. It's kind of a little bit of a revitalization of the sport, which is fun.

Yeah, and you mentioned Bam Rodriguez. He fought at this new venue called, I think is the Techport Center and Arena, which is a really small venue, which is one thing I think was missing from San Antonio over the years because you had to do fights at the Alamo Dome. or AT&T Center. This place, I think, held about 2,500 fans. It is kind of perfect for those lower-tier fights or with younger fighters that haven't built the kind of fan base that warrants a trip to the Alamo Dome or to AT&T Center. So I hope there are more fights in San Antonio, and I hope more fights at that smaller venue

as well until guys get to a certain level in boxing. I want to talk about the Megsayo Vargas fight, but I want to begin, Al, talking about some news that broke yesterday involving another fight. It's going to wind up on Showtime pay-per-view. That's Jake Paul, everybody's favorite pseudo-boxer. He was scheduled to face Tommy Fury in an anticipated fight on August 6th at Madison Square Garden. Last week, Tommy Fury could not get into the United States for reasons that are not clear

at the moment. Jake Paul has elected to move on. I was told Jake is finalizing a deal to face Assam Rockman Jr., the son of of ex-heavyweight champion, Asim Rahman. Rockman Jr., nowhere near as accomplished as his father. But he's 12-1-1 as a professional and seemingly fills the void or the role of real fighter that Jake Paul has been urged to face at some point. So, Al, let me start there. I mean, you know, how did you feel about Jake Paul fighting Tommy Fury and how do you feel about Jake Paul now fighting Assam Rockman Jr?

You know, the Fury fight seems star-crossed. It's had many fits and starts, and now this last episode in which Fury couldn't get into the country. Some question how zealous he was in the attempt to do so. That's, who knows, but in any case, it turns out he can't. And the intriguing part about this is that it's conceivable that the changing opponent, from Tommy Fury to Hasim Rahman may offer a bigger challenge to Jake Paul, who you aptly referred to as a pseudo-boxer. I don't know that. That was a good phrase.

But Hasim Raqman has a loss. He lost to Tommy Morrison's son, but he was doing well in that fight. And he is a pro boxer, as you point out. So that was the mission statement for Jake Paul this time. was to fight an actual professional boxer. And toward that end, Hasim Rahman will fill the bill. Now, he has come in and fights higher in weight than the cruiser weight level, for sure. So we'll see what he weighs in at.

That could be a big part of this story as well, if in fact they make the deal with him. And most important and central to this entire issue is that the fact that that fight has been saved means that I can see a second Broadway show, in New York after we're in town on the 31st. So, you know, I have my priorities straight. That's right. From Danny Garcia to Jake Paul, an extended trip into Manhattan.

I like that. I'm fine with Jake Paul fighting a seam Rockman. In fact, I'd go as far, Al, as to say I'm impressed that Jake Paul is fighting a seam Rockman Jr. You know, Rockman Jr. is not a world champion, not going to be. a world champion. But he is an established fighter who fights at a higher weight class. His last fight, he fought around 220 pounds. They're going to have to find a weight that works between Jake Paul's 190-195 type of weight and the weight that has seen Rockman Jr. fights at. But more to

the point, Al, like, whenever I hear criticism of Jake Paul, especially from former fighters, I check the receipts. And I check the receipts, and I mean that by, I look, at who they were fighting in their sixth professional fight. Jake Paul's 5-0. This will be a sixth fight. So I go back to my good friend, Sergio Amora, my broadcast partner over at DeZone, who in his sixth professional fight fought a guy named Warren Kronberger,

who sounds like my tax attorney, who was three and six at the time, and finished his illustrious boxing career at 4-10. Tony Bellew, loved Tony Bellew. Former champion, tremendous career. His six-fight was against his... Hastings Rossani, who was 1935 and 2. The sixth fight, he fought Hastings-Rosani.

Julio Cesar Chavez Jr., I promise I'll stop here. Former champion who has his eyes on a fight with Jake Paul at some point in the future. In his sixth pro fight out, he faced Guadalupe Arce, who at the time was 0 and 14. So, like, Jake is highly visible. But in his sixth professional fight, he faced. In a six professional fight, Jake is facing someone who is 12 and 1. That's better than the record of what most guys were facing at this point in their career. Yeah, no, I get your point.

And part of the difference, the thing that would make the scenario is slightly different is that those fights for those famous fighters were a little more obscure than Jake Paul, who has built an industry around. this, his boxing activities. And so he's in Madison Square Garden in the main room in a paper view. But your point is well taken. Here he is in his six fight. And I do believe, agree with you that taking on Rahman represents an appropriate, very appropriate fight for him. And you make the point that, you know, higher weight class is a good professional. I don't, by the way, losing to Morrison's son, who's a decent fighter, is, you know, that's

okay because we know the level we're at here. And so I agree with you. I think it's actually for what this is, you cannot really, I don't think, complain about him fighting Rockman, because I do think it's probably a higher level of competitions for him than Tommy Fury would have been. Yeah. And Jake's familiar with Rockman. There are reports that he says, sparred with him in the past so he knows what he's getting into and they'll obviously make rockman come down and wait a little bit to meet somewhere in the middle but look i'm impressed by jake doing this i was you know i don't think i seem rockman junior is any less dangerous than tommy furrow who had a nice record but he wasn't beating real top level guys either no absolutely

and and this was the point that there was going to be this spot here where look we don't know the arc of the Jake Paul phenomena, right? We don't know where it's at, where it's going, how, what is the sustainability of it, but while it's interesting to people, it's going to keep happening. And for right now, this is kind of an appropriate stop along the way, whether it's a full stop or whether it's just the stop along the way. And what happens is he creates a event. And that's what's happening here. And what I think people have wanted to see, at least, as we pointed out, was him against a true professional boxer, just to gauge what we think of him because it's hard to do from the other opponents. And while Tommy Fury would have been that

gauge, Hasim Rachman is certainly the same gauge or more of one. Yeah, I agree. And finally, to Warren Kronberger, if you're out there listening to this podcast, I would like to invite you to the next zone event. There you go. Front row so you can stare at Sergio Amora and tell him that the judges robbed you in that fight because I didn't see it, but I believe it. I believe the judges robbed you, Warren.

All right, let's move on to women's boxing. It was announced this week to Clarissa Shields, Savannah Marshall will take place on September 10th over in London. Women's boxing out, starting to experience a bit of a surge. Oh, yeah. Coming off the Katie Taylor, Amanda Serrano fight, that was a big event at Massa Square Garden. Savannah Marshall doesn't have this incredibly glossy record or an incredible resume. What she has is a great story.

She is the only female boxer to beat Cloresa Shields in the ring. She beat her back in 2012 in an amateur tournament. I was watching the press conference this week, clearly some bad blood between these two women. So you've seen a lot of Cloresa Shields over the years. You know about Savannah Marshall. Is Savannah Marshall a real threat to Cloressa Shields or is she just a good story to sell a fight? Well, it's a little bit of both. You know, Correscent's, first let's take her.

She has improved as a boxer as she has gone along, both in her amateur career and, her professional career. And she's fighting very well. Savannah Marshall brings something different to this fight. She's a power puncher. She is not as proficient of fighter as Cloressa Shields, but she has power. And so a combination of the backstory in which she,

as you pointed out, beat Clarissa Shields as an amateur, and the fact that she is knocking women out and doing so in a pretty convincing fashion, which doesn't always happen in women's boxing. Of course, the Shields an example. She's not a knockout puncher or doesn't often score knockouts. But the two factors, the back story and the fact that Savannah Marshall has a puncher's chance in any fight she would fight in because she does have pure power makes this, you know, I think a fascinating event.

Yeah, there are so few true power punchers in women's box. Yeah, not that many. You probably count them on one hand. In the lower, lower weight classes, Sanisa Estrada has power. You go up a little bit higher. Alicia Baumgartner with the way she knocked out Terry Harper, she's clearly got some power. Amanda Serrano obviously has one-punch knockout power.

And in the higher weights, it's really Savannah Marshall. and I've watched a bunch for fights, Al, that's real power that she has. She's not. Yes, I agree. Go ahead. She's not special. Like, she's not, I, Clarissa is the more talented boxer. Right.

But Savannah Marshall kind of, in a very basic way, can knock you out. And that's what I think she's got to be worried of. I'm watching that press conference. And I'm thinking, if Clarissa Shields goes out there and tries to prove that she's the bigger puncher, that she's the one, that she has to definitively beat Savannah Marshall, that could get her in trouble. because Savannah Marshall does have the power to hurt Clarissa Shields. Yeah, now what we don't know is, and these things are,

while Clarissa Shields isn't known as a big puncher, we also don't know if she can hurt Savannah Marshall. It's possible she may catch Marshall with something that would affect her. But you're right. Shields is, and even in her last fight, you know, we saw Shields with opportunities to maybe get in there and do a little bit more, but she stayed behind the jab and she was very deliberate in her approach

and a box, you know, very, very effectively. That would be the prudent move for her and try to dominate rounds and win rounds and see if she can at some point hurt Marshall because, yes, Marshall can catch you with a punch and change the course of a fight.

And, you know, it's, that's what makes this fight, I think that, the, you know, the U.S. versus the U.K. Raya angle, their history together, all of it makes it, I think, a very, very appealing event made even more appealing by putting the Michaela Meyer-Elisha Bumgarner fight on the same card, which some thought odd because Bumgarner and McElleyer Meyer maybe merited a spot on their own, especially in the United States. But what it's done is make that event a mega event.

Yeah, I love it that they tack that on to the Shields Marshall fight, making it a mega women's card where you've got two meaningful fights in women's boxing. I tell you what, too. I love where women's boxing is at the moment. It still needs to continue to build depth. Yeah. But as you know, it's not about great fighters. It's about great fights. And we had one. with Taylor and Serrano. We're going to have another with Shields and Marshall. Maybe Mayor Baumgartner turns out to be a war.

You go into 2023 and you're talking about a rematch between Taylor and Serrano. I mean, there's and other fights that are going to be out there, whether it's Mayor moving up and wait to fight Katie Taylor or something like that. There's just a lot of momentum right now

for women's boxing. It's probably the best place that's ever been. I mean, and you can speak to this. I mean, you covered, you know, when Christy Martin was coming up the ranks, when women's boxing was just Christy Martin in a lot of ways and the occasional other fighter that's out there. Now, it's boxing.

It's not just a woman. It's women in boxing. I think that's made this sport really interesting to watch. And these fights have been good. Like Shields versus Serrano, or not Shields, Sorano versus Taylor was fantastic. That was Rockham Socomin' Robot for 10 rounds. And I have a feeling that Marshall versus Shields is going to be just as good.

I agree. And, you know, you alluded to the fact that the only thing missing is depth in some of the divisions, but there are more and more good women boxers every week and every month as we move forward. They're motivated to be a part of it because it does have all this momentum. You can make some money now doing it, which was very difficult before, and you get notoriety now that you didn't get before. So the influx of women into the sport, you see it with a lot of these amateur boxers coming forward from the UK and the United States. And what's interesting is when I talk to, like, boxing fans that are interested in the sport, they will name women boxers to me.

Even one's slightly below the level of Serrano, Taylor, and Cloressa Shields. And so they even know some of these women, and they're hip to them. And I think it's, and here's the other part of the equation, which I tweeted about recently. these these women are fighting each other they're unifying titles they're they're taking the best matches and they're making them and that more than anything as you point out it's not always about the depth of talent it's about the matches and if they're really good matches then people are going to watch yeah i agree all right let's talk about the fight you have coming up this weekend mark megzio ray vargas wbcc 26 pound title on the line when we last saw mcciyo

he was upsetting Gary Russell Jr. to win that belt. It was a good performance by Megzio, but Al, when you look back on it, one of the things I wonder, and one of the variables, I think, going into this fight is, was that a great performance by Mark McSayo that indicates there's more to come, or did he catch Gary Russell, Jr. on an awful night, a night that he had a physical injury in the fight, and a night that he was dealing with so much outside the ring with the illness of his father. who eventually later passed away. So give me your thoughts on Megsayo.

Like, is Mark McSayo a elite guy or is he someone that still has a lot to prove? Well, I think the jury, here's the irony, right? You beat one of the longest reigning champions and a guy who many people thought was almost difficult for most people, not difficult for Lomachenko to be, difficult for most other people to be. And yet, I'm about to say that, that the jury is still out on how good Mark McSyoe is. Because, look, Gary Russell, Jr. had an injury in that fight. He even said it going into the fight, which was extraordinary. I don't even remember a time when we've had that.

And the injury did impact his performance. Now, Mark McSyio took advantage of that by winning the fight. Having said that, I was disappointed in part of McSio's performance because he failed to capitalize on the injury. There were certain things he could have done that would have clearly driven home that victory. It ended up being a pretty close fight. However, Mark McSailo is a good fighter.

He's a vulnerable fighter. We saw that in his fight with Seahaw, where he was knocked down, he was behind on the scorecards, had to come back to win on a knockout. He's a good fighter, a very good fighter. How good we don't know. fighting Ray Vargas will give us a better idea. Vargas, 125-pound champion, as you pointed out, now up to 126 moving up. He has height, he has range, he's an excellent boxer, has lots of skills,

and this is hardly an easy fight for Mark McSio in his first defense. So we're going to get a better picture, I think, of where McSio is at. No question McSio has power. He knows how to fight, but sometimes you feel like there's that extra spark, that extra little thing that he hasn't yet shown. And that speaks to what you were saying, you know, we're not 100% sure of just how good he is. And this Vargas fight, I think, should give us a pretty good idea. And on the card, we have Brandon Figueroa versus Carlos Castro. the winner of that fight is supposed to be a mandatory for the winner of McSayo and Vargas.

And if we don't find out in this fight against Ray Vargas, let's say for the sake of argument, if Brandon Figueroa were to win that fight, not to say Carlos Castro can't, we sure can. We'll find out all about Mark Wixio if he faces Figueroa, that's for sure. What do you think of Ray Bargis's chances here? Because Ray, a champion at 122, very limited resume above that. But he's one of those freakish physiques, right? Like a really tall guy at 122. So theoretically, he should fill out at 126.

Yeah, he's fought a good brand of fighter at 122. He's fought some very good fighters. So he's been in against good fighters and he's experienced. And he knows how to fight. He's a very good boxer. he's got a, even though he hasn't had a knockout in six years, which is amazing, right? He hardly ever loses a scorecard. The statistics are staggering that, you know, he's barely, I mean, of all the scorecards

in all his fights, there's one that's a draw. And beyond that, you know, nothing's even, most of the other cards are not even close. So he wins rounds. And you can win rounds versus McSyle. But as in the SAF fight, McSayo found a way to come back and knock him out, Ray Vargas definitely has a good chance to win this fight. Because if he can sustain that boxing throughout and land enough power punches to keep McSio at bay, and McSio does have some defensive liabilities, then Vargas can do it because for him going 12 rounds is a walk in the park. It's, you know, nothing to him. He does it all the time.

So it'll be interesting to see. The big question will be how much does Vargas engage in this fight? From the standpoint of the fans watching the fight, we hope there's enough engagement from him to make it interesting. But he doesn't want too much engagement that would cause him to get knocked out by McSyle. Yeah, I agree. Very interesting fight, very good fight in 126 pound division. All right, let me finish with this. In about 10 days, Al, I will be in.

Los Angeles for Ryan Garcia against Javier Fortuna. Garcia, justifiably a big favorite in that fight. Fortuna was badly beaten by Jojo Diaz last year. One, one fight in between, but it was low level. If Ryan Garcia wins and Ryan Garcia looks great, I'm going to be standing there in the ring, Al, and I'm going to be talking to Ryan Garcia about Tank Davis,

because this is the fight that everyone wants to see in the lightweight division. Two of not the title holders, but the biggest stars. The two biggest names in the lightweight division right now are Tank Davis and Ryan Garcia. They have huge fan bases. They fight with an enormous amount of power. They're exciting every time they're in the ring. On paper, it is a no-brainer to make that fight. But as you know, paper doesn't always work that way.

You know, boxing, politics get in the way to make fights. So let me ask you the question this way. Like, if Garcia wins, who needs a Garcia-Tank-Davis? his fight more. Ryan Garcia or Tank Davis? Well, that's an interesting way to phrase it. And I think the answer might be both because for Garcia, who doesn't have a championship and who is looking for that fight that will, you know, stamp him as, as one of the, as the best or one of the best lightways, it's vital because he needs to add to his red. resume, something that will make him more than just a marketable fighter. Tank Davis, let's be

honest, he's been looking, he needs a fight against top competition in the lightweight division that people have criticized him for not having. And while he is, as you point out, a very exciting fighter who packs arenas is rolling along in his career doing pay-per-view fights and doing decent business with them. And so his career is rolling along nicely, but what he needs is that fight that will push him over into another level. And there's no question the Garcia fight

is one that can do that. And of all the lightweight machinations going on, you can make a case that from the Davis standpoint, the Garcia fight is the most makeable, the one that's most possible. And as you point out, championships aside, there are two fighters that can bring a lot to this matchup in terms of the marketability of it.

And also in terms of what happens inside the ring, who does not want to see these two power punchers in the center of the ring battling it out? It's just, it's a... very appealing fight in a year in which boxing has had so many appealing fights. The last couple of years, the sport, as you well know, has made several steps forward in terms of putting a product out there that fans really like. This would be a big part of that.

I agree. And it's one of the most compelling fights that you can make. It's a fight that if you put it on pay-per-view, I think would zoom past 500,000 pay-per-view buys. I agree. Because they are just hugely popular fighters, and the build-up to that fight would be incredible. They're hugely popular fighters with entirely different fan bases.

Like the people that watch Ryan Garcia are not the fans that watch Tank Davis and vice versa. They are just, they have different fan base that would come together and coalesce for a fight of that magnitude. What I want to see, Al, is Tank Davis be assertive, over the next couple of months. You know, and I know, that Ryan Garcia is going to be vocal

about making that fight happen. He is going to say it after the fight. He is going to say Golden Boy has to make the fight. Nothing guarantee. Words don't guarantee anything. But I would really like to see Tank Davis, whether it's on social media, whether it's in interviews,

to come out and say, that's the fight I want to make. You know, figure it out networks, figure it out promoters, but let's get me and Ryan Garcia in the ring. Because if you're Tank Davis, you've got to be looking at Ryan Garcia. Garcia and saying, look, he's dangerous.

He's got that left hook. He can knock anybody out. But he's not Canello. Like, he's not a pound for pound guy at this point. He's not even Devin Haney, who has more of an ability to outbox you in a fight like that. Tank's going to be looking at Ryan saying, I can get to him. I can knock him out in a spectacular way, and I can build myself up to another level in doing it. So I guess that's what I want to see over the coming weeks and months out.

The Sea Tank Davis, be aggressive in trying to get this fight. made and not settle for honestly not settle for i don't even know what else is out there like i don't know what he would do at this point at 135 or 140 it just the landscape is relatively barren on the pbc you know side of the street so i just want to see him get aggressive out say i want to make this maybe it doesn't happen for different reasons but i want to hear from tank davis saying let's make this fight happen well that would certainly be an aid to making it happen there's no question about that and uh you can make a case for for tank davis The time you want to fight Ryan Garcia is right now for a variety of things.

I agree. I think Ryan Garcia is going to get better. And you mentioned the fact that, of course, he's a very powerful puncher. I think, to be honest, okay, I think going with Joe Gusson was great. This is no wrap on anybody else. I just believe Joe Gusson is a very good boxing trainer. And I think he will help Ryan Garcia. I think it's a very good match.

But this would be the time to make this fight. It just is the time to do it. And yeah, I hope that everyone involved in this has a posture that they want to try and make it happen. They've made efforts before, as you well know, there have been efforts to make this fight. And it didn't succeed. You know, let's hope it, you know, it does. does this time. And the clock may be ticking, too, because Ryan's like, I think, what, 23 years old, a tall guy, he's going to be moving up sooner rather than later. And Tank

probably has reached his limit at 140 pounds. So I think if you want to make this fight at 135, this year is the year to do. Yeah, I agree. I think it, and I think it makes sense. And it would be one of those fights. We keep seeing these great, really good fights being made. We're hoping that Spence Crawford will be announced pretty soon. There's other fights on the horizon that are potentially being made plus ones that are made. This would just be, to me, from the sports standpoint, this would be one of those ones you'd say, okay, this puts an exclamation mark on 2020. Oh, if Spence Crawford, Al, doesn't get made, I might lose it here on this show.

Like, it's just, like, what else are they going to do at this point? If you're, if you're Terrence Crawford and you don't cut a deal, deal to fight Errol Spence, you're going to get stuck fighting Virgil Ortiz, and that's a really tough fight. If you're Errol Spence and you don't fight Terrence Crawford, you've got either fight boot tennis, which is a tough fight, or vacate that IBF title. So, like, you know, this is the time to make a champion at one disputed. Then one or both of you can move up and wait after that and let some of these younger guys duke it out. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense because both could move up to 154, which is also a talented division that has,

you know, lots of good fights in it. So, yeah, I mean, I really do believe that it's going to get made. And it will be appropriate. And you mentioned the Ortiz and the Ennis's and Stanionis's and other fighter. There's a crop of 147 pounders coming up who are very good and very entertaining. And and it would be the perfect time for a changing of the guard and for them to, you know, to get a chance to fight for titles. I'm hit you with this before we go, because you mentioned 154, and you will be in New York end of the month

to call Danny Garcia's return to the ring. What kind of ceiling does Danny Garcia have at 154? Do you like this move? Do you think he can be a threat in that weight class? I don't know. You know, at this juncture in his career, going up and weighed into a division that's got lots of talent in it,

is to be honest, in my opinion, is kind of a dangerous move. Now, he's fighting a man who's also coming up. So it isn't as if Danny Garcia now walked into the ring to fight Tim Zhu or even to fight, I could name any number of Sebastian Fedorah or whoever. He's fighting somebody else. And appropriately, I don't discount. And Benavitt is a fun fighter. I believe it's going to be an action fight, by the way.

I think it's going to be a lot of fun to watch. But what Danica Garcia can do at this juncture of his career at 154 against the top 154 pounders, that's a good question because that division has really good fighters in it. I'm a believer that, you know, the talent pool, the Tony Harrison's of the world, he's still a good fighter, Fondora, Zoo, you go down the list, there's so many. Jared Hurd is still floating out there. And even though he didn't look great in his last fight, you could think of Hurd against Garcia.

It's interesting. So I think we're going to be looking first and foremost to see how does Danny Garcia perform, period. He's had a layoff. You know, he's not coming in off of a great performance. So it's up to Danny Garcia in this fight to demonstrate he's still an upper echelon fighter in whatever weight division he choose. to fight it. And so there's pressure on him to produce that kind of performance. Now,

Benavides, who has come back to the sport and has had a very close win the last time he fought, that we had that on Showtime, a lot of pressure on him to show that he can perform at a higher level. So both men are in similar situations, though not exactly the same. And we'll see. You know, Danny Garcia has, he is known to boxing fans so that means he's going to get fights like this. Yeah, I talked about this with Jamel Herring last week. Danny Garcia was a big puncher at 140, not so much at 147. So I don't know how that power is going to carry to 154, where you need to have power to keep some, not necessarily in this coming fight, but in the upper echelon fights against the Fonduras, the Harrisons, those guys. You got to be able to keep those guys off.

you or else you're going to get run over. Al, good to talk to you, man. Enjoy the fights this weekend. Enjoy San Antonio. Don't fall into the riverwalk. I've had that almost happen a couple of times in my years covering the NBA. So just be careful down there. I will try. I will try. When we come back, my conversation with Stephen Espinoza. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey, from basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a lot. a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill,

waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've just That's correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Then you're finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Fight fans, come out swinging with a no-swet first bet on Fandul's sportsbook. Right now, new customer.

get up to $1,000 back in free bets if your first bet doesn't win. Just sign up with the promo code boxing. Bet it who will win, knockouts, when the fight will end, and so much more. So if you haven't tried Fandual, now is the perfect time to give it a shot. Join now with the promo code boxing to get a no-sweat first bet. That's up to $1,000 back in free bets if your first bet doesn't win. Exclusively on the Fandul Sportsbook app. All right, Stephen Espinoza is here.

of Showtime sports. He is in lovely San Antonio for the Showtime fight this weekend. Mark McSiah, Ray Vargas, 126 pound title fight. Also recently announced the documentary that Showtime collaborated with Kevin Durant on Point Gods. You're right kind of in both my sweet spots right now, Stephen.

The NBA. You're absolutely right. And that's our goal just to keep you happy, Chris. That's what we're doing over here. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Well, it's a busy busy few weeks, busy couple of months coming up for showtime. I want to start with the news that broke, well, early in the week when I reported that Jake Paul was going to face a scene, Rockman Jr. Jake Paul came out on Thursday and I don't know if he created a fight poster on his own, but he did that he put it out there that the deal is done.

Let me start there. There's a lot of confusion about what's going on with Tommy Fury. What can you tell people about why this fight with Fury isn't happening? what his issues are getting into the United States, how resolvable they are in the future. Can you clear up any of it? Sure. I mean, I can tell you what I've been told.

So I think I have a fair degree of confidence in it, but I'm getting it second and third hand for the most part. One thing that we've heard pretty consistently from a variety of different people that this so-called no-fly list or ban list related to people with Kinnahan ties. Tommy's not on it. Tommy's not banned from entering the U.S. And, you know, for his part, Tommy's team has assured us that there are no ties between Tommy and Daniel Kinnahen. And of course, you know, based on those assurances and the fact that Tommy was

in the U.S. for, you know, for more than a week in mid-May, just about six, eight weeks ago, gave us confidence in going forward. Now, when Tommy showed up to fly to New York City for the press conference, he was denied. It said his travel documentation was not valid. So beyond that, you know, there is a problem with his documentation. He is not on the Kenahan, you know, no fly list, so say. But there is obviously something. And there is something that we were told would not be immediately resolvable. It's not like, hey, go to the embassy and a half hour later, everyone straightens it off and, you know, straightens it out and we're on to the races. We're told it's more complicated. Unfortunately, you know, I don't have a lot more information to that other than they say, look, we're not sure it's going to take a little bit of time. We're not sure that we could have a resolve for August 6th, and therefore we really didn't

have much choice but to start looking at other options. How do you feel about putting another option like a seamer? Rockman Jr. out there. I mean, I would argue, and you as a boxing guy would probably agree, Rockman Jr. is as dangerous or more dangerous to Jake Paul than Tommy Fury was. He just is. He just doesn't have the name recognition, right? So it's like Jake is taking maybe a more dangerous fight that doesn't have the same commercial appeal. Yeah, I think, look, it's, you want to match Jake appropriately, you know, with an appropriate challenge. And, you know, he wants to answer the question about him being a credible boxer and actually take someone who is a full-time boxer.

I think that if we end up with Hussein Rockman Jr., I think Rockman is definitively. He is a more difficult opponent than Tommy Puri. And I'm not, you know, that's not a slide against Tommy Puri by any means. I just think when you look at his pedigree, the number of fights, you know, the fact that he is much bigger than Jake or Tommy Puri. He's been fighting at heavyweight for most of his career. He'd be coming down a little bit to around, probably in the range of 200 to fight Jake. So you put it all together.

I think this is a riskier fight. I think Rockman is a riskier fight. Just because of Rockman has a little bit more experience. He's got some amateur pedigree. He's got, you know, the bloodline for what that's worth. And he's a big, strong guy who's been boxing a lot longer than Jake. It's a little bit of strange endeavor because, you know, obviously, Obviously, we need somebody with a little bit of marketability and in the name opposite because it is supporting a pay-per-view.

And therefore, there are a lot of guys that we considered and evaluated, not, you know, and then just dismiss. Not because they weren't good fighters or quality matchups. It just they didn't have, you know, the marketing ability to hang your hat on a pay-per-view on. What do you want to get out of your relationship with Jake? I mean, right now you're working with him on a fight-by-fight basis. what do you see as the future of Showtime and Jake Paul, of Jake Paul in general, like where does this story go as his career progresses? That's part of the fun.

I don't think anybody knows. And I think we're taking it as a step of the time. You know, our goal is to be in business with Jake long term. You know, if that's Diaz fight and Anderson Silva fight, if it's a Mike Tyson fight, if it's other, you know, professional boxers. you know, what we've seen, these people are showing up at the start of the card, you know, by the time you get to, you know, two fights into the pay-per-view, we're seeing the arena's two-thirds pull, if not more. So look, I understand it's not everybody's cup of tea. You know,

a lot of people are out there rooting for Jake, too, which is, you know, fine as well. Floyd Mayweather made a great career out of that for a long, long time. So I think, look, I think It is a different genre of boxing. It's something I think it is positive. It is expanding the audience. And as long as he's doing credible boxing competitions, you know, competitive fights, legitimate stuff that people have interest in, we'd love to be along for the ride.

Yeah, I said this to Al Bernstein earlier. I kind of laugh at the fighter criticism of Jake Paul because fighters got to look at the receipts. You go back to your sixth professional fight and who are you facing. Sergio Amora, who I work with, who I fight with him over this all the time. I'm like Sergio, and your sixth professional fight, you fought a guy named Warren Cronberger, okay, who finished his career at 4 and 10. So let's just, let's stop acting like you were facing killers early on in your career as well. Jake's doing it in a far more high profile stage. He's far more visible about it, but it's not like he's facing guys that would be embarrassing for you back in your day.

I want to ask you about some other stuff that's kind of coming up. and fights that people are interested in that you're involved with with showtime. Crawford versus Spence is something everybody's kind of waiting for. You know, you're doing more and more business with PBC as Fox is sort of phasing out of boxing, or at least it seems that way. What can you tell anybody, or can you tell people about the future of Crawford Spence? I mean, how much confidence do you have as someone that might be involved in it that that fight happens this year? I have a fairly high degree of confidence.

And that's not because I know that there's, you know, meaningful progress being made that we're, you know, getting close to having a signature on a dotted line. It's because everybody here wants it. There's nobody who is fighting against it. There's not a per motor dispute. There are no network conflicts. The fighters have been very open. Now is the time. They're very focused on it.

So I think when, you know, we've got everybody pulling in the same direction and nobody pulling against. then I think it's basically inevitable. And I've said it before. I don't want to get too much into specifics because I do think that gets people's ego involved. And then people start, once you start negotiating in the press, I think you're almost dooming yourself. But I would say it's really just a matter of figuring out the appropriate deal, which does take time. But you know, you'd say, okay, it's all done except for making the deal. It sounds funny to say that.

But a lot of times, you know, things break down, you know, outside of the deal. I mean, go back to the most recent one, the Mangia fight, you know, Mungia had accepted his deal and it fell apart for reasons outside of the deal. So in this particular case, I think all the stuff outside the deal is, you know, is resolvable, if not already resolved. And now it's just a matter of sort of punching the numbers and getting to ideal that everyone feels like is fair. And I think, I'm not saying that we're there yet. You know, really, PBC is on the front lines of that.

We're there in a support role. If we can be helpful, it will be. But I'm confident that it will get done because everybody wants it to get done. Your relationship or Showtime's relationship with PPC is always a source of intrigue. You know, you are basically PBC's North Star. You're always there. You're its rock. No matter what other networks is working with.

Showtime's always there and always continues to be there. As I mentioned, it does seem like Fox is getting out of the boxing business outside of the periodic pay-per-view at this point. How do you see your relationship with PBC moving forward? Do you see it expanding even further? Do you anticipate them finding another network to potentially partner with? In your conversation with people there, like, how do you see that dynamic evolving? Look, the market's gone through a lot of changes. And I think it was 2015 when PBC.

started with the strategy of sort of opening up things a little bit more and saying, look, let's see if we can spread it around, take a little bit of the NFL model, and sort of put a little bit of a bunch of different networks and get other networks investing. And that was, they came to us, explained it to us and said, look, this is our theory. You know, we had, you know, there are parts that we agreed with, parts that we didn't. But we understood and agreed that it was, you know, probably in the best interest of boxing, at least conceptually. You can take issue with, you know, the execution of various things here or there. But I think the goal was, let's see if we can make the whole pie bigger

by, you know, elevating the exposure and going on different networks and getting in front of a range of people who don't normally see the sport. So, you know, there were some successes. There were some areas that, you know, didn't go as well. And, look, ultimately, I think the way that the market has had shipped. I think the pendulum is probably, you know, swinging back to us a little bit. And I think it's, you know, because of our production value and in our marketing

process and our commitment to the sport. You know, going forward, you know, look, things can change at any point and they usually do. Just when you think the dust is settling, then that's when, you know, chaos erupts. But, you know, whether it's PBC or whether there's other opportunities, you know, we've been here for 30,

to five years. We're not going anywhere. We're always going to figure out a way to be relevant in this sport. Do you feel like you have the budget to make some of these fights? I mean, you, I mean, I've given you credit many times over for the Charlo Castano stuff, two great fights, both on Showtime. I think that helped both fighters exponentially because of the visibility that was brought to that. As we look forward and people are waiting for, you know, whether it's Jamal Charlo against David Benavides or Caleb Plant against David Benavis, or Caleb these big fights that aren't natural paper views. Do you feel like you're going to be able to get those fights done in a timely manner?

Look, I'd love to have an unlimited budget. I'd love to get the license fees, you know, or to be able to pay the license fees that other sports, you know, throw around. There are limits to our budget. But when push comes to shove, more often than not, I would argue the vast majority of the time, We have figured it out. Sometimes it's a little bit painful. Sometimes we have to get creative in how we finance and how we put things. But I thought it was very important that both of those charlo-castaniel fights go on showtime and not on pay-per-view. I think they would have done fine on pay-per-view. But I think it was better for the sport that they didn't go on pay-per-view. And so, you know, we bore a little bit of the pain. PBC bore a little bit of the pain. And I think in the end that the sport was better for it. The rating shows that. I think the PR, the results, all of that.

So I think that was the right decision. You know, going forward, look, PBC has a business to run, and they may come to us and say, look, we've got some opportunities to expand the market. And that's good for everybody. Maybe that would happen. Right now, we're really thrilled with, you know, what we did last year, what we're doing this year. And I think we've got a lot of momentum and, you know, two bit fights, you know, hopefully on the horizon, you've mentioned one, and I know you're going to ask about the other one pretty shortly.

Yeah, I think that's probably correct. But just to put a button on Charlo, and I mean, I just know after the Charlo Castanio fight, I had casual fans coming up to me to be like, that was a great fight, man, that was great. Fans that would not have bought a pay-per-view. And they were exposed to Jermel Charlo,

and that's great for him. It's great for Showtime. It's great for his future as a pay-per-view star, frankly. Like, if you're getting guys and see him picking up a knockout late in the fight. All right, let's finish with, what you know I'm going to ask about. In about a week's time, Stephen, I am probably going to be standing in a ring with Ryan Garcia after Ryan Garcia picks up a big knockout. I mean, that seems to be the most likely outcome in a fight with Javier Fortuna, who's a good experienced guy,

but Ryan's probably on a different level than him. I have no doubt that I'm going to get into with Ryan over Tank Davis, because Ryan is very public about how much he wants a Tank Davis fight. It is, I think, the biggest fight in the lightweight division. I all due respect to Devin Haney and George Cambosis. They fight for all the belts. Ryan and Tank fight for all the money. They are the biggest names at 135 pounds. I'm of the belief. And you can tell me if you disagree, I don't see how this fight gets done without multiple networks involved, multiple promoters involved getting it done. Because like, I don't think that DeZone should be excluded because they have given millions to Ryan Garcia over the years and help build him up. And you clearly shouldn't be excluded because you've given

millions to Tank Davis and help to build him up. You're going to have a big role in a fight like that potentially getting done. What's your perspective on that? What will your mindset be on July 18th if Ryan Garcia comes out victorious? Look, I agree with your setup. I think it's certainly the biggest fight that can be made in that division. One of the four or five biggest fights that can be made in the sport. I look at a little bit like, you know, and these guys were at later stages of their career and arguably bigger PR-wise, but it's got some of the dynamics of Delahoya Maywin there.

And not just because you've got both fighters affiliated with those guys, but just, you know, their personas and their fan bases and what they bring to the table. And we knew when you've got those two different fan bases coming together, it just makes it a massive event. And I think stylistically, it's really intriguing matchup. So look, it's a great fight. You know, we'd love to help it happen. Look, there's always hurdles to this fight, to fights like this, to big fights. You know, this one, unlike Spence Crawford, I mean, there are some things that, you know, need to be sorted out. Now, I'd start from where I started with Spencer Crawford.

it seems very clear that both Ryan and Tank want the fight and want each other next. I mean, Ryan was there on May 28th for the Tank, Rolling Romero fight, and Tank was very aware that he was there. You know, he sort of called him out, you know, from the ring before the fight and after the fight. They had an exchange one-on-one, even during the fight. So look, they're orbiting each other. it feels like it's the right fight to make. It feels like there's a limited window

because Ryan is not going to be able to stay at 135 forever. So look, that's a great start. And generally, I said when fighters truly want the fight, there's really not a partner or a network that will stand in a way if they insist on getting it. Having said that, look, our preference is to not have to partner on pay-per-view distribution and TV production. It's a massive complication.

It creates a lot more difficulty than people realize. And, you know, I think there are lots of ways that we can split the baby, so to speak, in a way that's fair to both sides that wouldn't require, you know, an actual partnership in this unwieldy structure on a distribution and production method. I mean, look, the two exceptions that have happened, Tyson Lewis, and maybe with a Pachele are quite literally the two biggest culturally transcendent events in the history of the sport. Those are, you know, arguably probably the two biggest. But, you know, tank would, tank would be a big fight, but it's not quite on the level of that one.

So it's it's sort of, it's tough to justify going through all that trouble and you're going through all that, you know, for a fight that doesn't, isn't, you know, this transcendent cultural event. I think there are simpler ways to solve the problem that don't leave either side out in the cold. That's my hope anyway. But look, you know, if we look at our history, we have tried as much as possible and often as possible to not be an obstacle. You know, we weren't, when Danny Jacobs, you know, Danny, you know, called us and said, I want to fight Kulovkin. And unfortunately, it's going to have to be on HBO. You know, you know, go with God. Good luck. opportunity. We just program in the World Boxing Super Series, you know, Devin Haney, you know, there's plenty of others that, you know, when they've come to us

and said, we want to do this fight and it's got to be somewhere else. Like we've, we generally said, okay, well, great, we hope that you come back after you, you know, win your big fight. You know, the reality here, that's what I hope would happen in this fight too on one level, you know, that, you know, but if, look, there's a lot of negotiating still still to go on that one. I agree that it's not close to the level of Tyson Lewis or Pachia Mayweather. I would say it's probably, and you know this business better than I do, but it's probably north of 500,000 pay-per-view buys.

I think that's a number it would do. And it's a gate that 15 million, 20 million, because you're talking about, as you noted, two very different fan bases. You know, Tank's got a fan base that supports him. Ryan's got a fan base supports him. and I'd be surprised if they crossed over at all, frankly, like with that. So, you know, you could be talking a massive gate and a massive number on pay-per-view, bigger than maybe any other number outside of Canelo fights at this point.

So, I mean, does that not make it worth trying to, I mean, what is the threshold for coming together and doing things jointly? Yeah. You know, look, it's not a clear line. And I'm not saying no-how, no way, under no circumstances. I'm saying, look, I don't think that it's necessary to go to that extreme to make the fight happen. I think there are other ways to split the baby. But I'm not saying, look, never in a million years will we ever consider that.

I don't think that's the way to go. I think there are ways to do it. I think, you know, some of the things that we went through on the Mongia situation are applicable here. You know, some of the ways that we suggested, okay, we get the first one, you know, then the second one goes somewhere else. you know, there are other ways to do it. But at the end of this, you know, this is where I contrasted with Srenz copper. Sprintz-Cofford, I think everyone's got the same agenda. But as we've seen with Charlo Mungia, you know, the fighters wanted it.

The fighters agreed to their deals. And even though there wasn't a contractual obligation in place at that point, there was no Golden Boy-Dazone deal, there was no, yeah, DeZone deal. that his own golden boy element was still a problem even though there was not a contractual obligation and quite honestly i think you know i feel bad for mungia because you know he suffered on not just one or two opportunities there were arguably three big opportunities that he had and he didn't get any of them and i think he was a pawn in a bigger conversation a bigger dynamic and that's really unfortunate when the fire has to suffer now that's what i want to avoid um you know and i think

for the good of the sport and because of the fighters, you need to figure out a way to make this happen. Yeah, I know you and I have talked about the, you take the first, we take the second, or vice versa kind of thing. I think that has the potential to work if it's guaranteed there is a second, which isn't always the case. And then if there is no second, how is the side that didn't get the first compensated? It's just, it is equally complicated and equally murky as well.

But I think we both agree. Like, that's the fight, man. I mean, you go to the second half of the year, it's Spence Crawford being the biggest fight people want to see. AJ against or if AJ wins, AJ Fury, if that happens, that's up there on the list. But Ryan and Tank in the U.S., second biggest fight out there, like massive event. And look, and I think if we're somehow able to help these events come to fruition, and we look back at really the last 12 months to have done Canelo plant,

to have done, you know, Charlo Castano twice, to have done Spence Ougas, Spence Crawford, and in Garcia, you know, and Tank versus Ryan in a 12-month span, that's a fantastic run of 12 months of fights. Now, look, we're not there yet, but like that's one where you can look back and say, wow, that is, it's not all in one calendar year. It's sort of November to December, but that's a fantastic. That's a strong run of big fights as we've had in the last decade or two. I agree.

No question about it. And for all the aggregators out there, make sure you take away from this. Espinosa, I will block Garcia Tank. That should be your headline on the boxing scene. That's right. Or the quick thing. I'm sure there's some bite in there that someone can chop up and make clickbait out of it. No question about it.

Stephen Espinosa, always good to talk to you, man. Good luck this weekend with the Meg Sayo, Ray Vargas fight. That can be seen on Showtime. And July 29th, if you're a basketball fan listening to this, the Kevin Durant produced documentary Point Gods is terrific. You can catch that on Showtime as well. Catch up soon, Stephen. All right.

Great to talk to you, Chris. And when we come back, this week's picks, brought to you by Fandul. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, the Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast,

it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, This is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. We pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, time now for this week's picks brought to you by our friends over at Fandul.

And this week, I am locked in on the heavyweight fight between Derek Chisora and Kubrat Pulev, a rematch of the 2016 fight between Chisora and Pulev. that Pulev won by split decision. Now, both these guys are well past their best days. In fact, the loser of this fight is probably headed towards retirement. But this has the potential to be a really fun fight and has the potential to be a great pick for an upset. Right now, according to Fandulah, Derek Chesora is at plus 240. Kubra-Pulev minus 3.30.

I'm picking Chisora to win this fight. Go back to 2016. Chisora lost that fight. He was outboxed. The split decision was probably wrong. He probably deserved a unanimous decision to feed. But Chisora, I think that was just a bad night for him. He was fighting in Pulev's backyard.

This fight is going to take place in Chesora's backyard, and he is so much better and feeds off the energy of that home crowd when he fights in the U.K. So I think he's going to come with a different attitude. I also think that Chesora is a little bit less washed up than Pulev is at this point. Pulev, I should say Chesora, is coming off a loss to Joseph. Parker. Two losses to Joseph Parker. Before that, he was beaten by Alexander Usik. Not a good stretch of fights for Chisora, but you look at what Pulev has done, who he's fought. He was knocked out in a one-sided

fight by Anthony Joshua. He beat Jerry Forrest in a very boring fight. Before that, he beat Rydell Booker, who cares? Bogdan Dino, doesn't really do much for me. I think Chisora's got a little bit left. So I'm taking Chisora to win this fight on the upset. Now, how he wins. Derek Chisora is plus 600 to win by points or decision. I think that's the right bet. Chisora has his reputation as being a power puncher, and he can crack, but I don't think he's got enough power to put Pulev down and out.

Pulev went nine rounds with Anthony Joshua. He went the distance with Chisora the last time they fought. I think he goes to distance again. So take Chisora to win. Take Chisora to win by decision. Those are my picks brought to you by Fandul. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Al Bernstein and Stephen Espinoza for joining the show.

As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an A cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast. The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only

deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok.