The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Assessing the Lightweight Division

Episode Date: December 11, 2021

A Lot going on in the world of boxing this week and Chris brings in Keith Idec, senior boxing writer at boxingscene.com and they go through all the news of this past week. Later, Xander Zayas, one of the best young prospects in boxing stops by. He's fighting this weekend and the guys talked about his early rise in boxing, what winning Prospect of the Year would mean to him, and how he sees himself fitting into the junior middleweight picture over the next couple of years. Finally, Chris sits down with WBC Bantamweight Champion Nonito Donaire to discuss how he feels boxing at 39 compared to 29, what goes into the decisions to move up or down weight classes, and why women don’t get the respect that they deserve when it comes to boxing. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Here's Chris Manix. All right, we are back boxing with Chris Mannix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network, and we have a loaded show for you today. A lot going on in the world of boxing. For that, I bring in Keith Ida. Senior boxing writer over at boxing scene.com. He is one of the best boxing insiders in the business, and we go through all the news of this past week.

After that, Zander Zayas, one of the best young prospects in boxing, 154-pound prospect. He is fighting this weekend on the undercard of Vasily Lomachenko against Richard Comey. I talked to Zander about his early rise in boxing, what winning prospect of the year would mean to him and kind of how he sees himself fitting in to the junior middleweight picture over the next couple of years. Finally, Nonito Donair, the future Hall of Famer, the Bantamweight champion. He is in action this weekend. And Donito breaks a little bit of news on this podcast, some interesting news towards the end. So stick around for that interview and to hear what Nonito has to say about his future in boxing.

As always, best way to support this podcast, get over to Apple Podcasts, post a comment, leave a rating. It's simple. It's easy. It's free. it's the best way to make sure that we keep doing this podcast week after week. That's it. All right, on to the show. All right, Keith Ideck is here.

Boxing Scene.com, fresh from sunny Southern California at the Jervante Davis-Esaq Cruze fight. Keith, I got to tell you, like, I came from Vegas where Devin Haney beat Jojo Diaz, and I'm sure you had the same feeling I did getting off the plane. It was like mid-70s in Las Vegas, and I got off the plane. in Boston and it's like 38 and the wind is howling. It's like, what am I doing here? Like what is what kind of,

what are my life choices all about? You know, it's, this isn't funny, obviously, but I did an 11 day trip, went from Vegas to L.A., from Fulton,

Figueroa to tank and, uh, and Esoc cruise. And on the flight back from Los Angeles, it was absurdly windy in New Jersey. The closest I've ever come to being in a plane crash. Like, like,

It was pretty, it was pretty harrow. And I'm not a, I'm a, I don't care about flying. I'm not fearful of it in any way of, you know, obviously done it millions of time just like you have. But the landing was so, uh, the plane was just teetering back and forth. And it, and right till we landed on the ground. And I was like, man, this is going to be a bad landing, you know, like. And people actually, you know, I always laugh when people clap when, you know, people clap when the pilot lands a plane. And that was a time.

I was like, yeah, maybe I should start clapping this time. because he deserves it on this one because it was a pretty, I mean, not like we were nose diving toward the ground, but I thought the landing was going to be pretty eventful, I guess. I get anxious. I get anxious every time I land every time. Like I'm always kind of thinking like, wait a minute, we're coming in too hot, wait a minute, we're over shooting the runway. I always have these weird thoughts in my head and you land.

And obviously every time it tends to work out. Yeah. No, you're still here. So that's a good. Hey, listen, the. Depending on who you ask, that's a good thing, though, you know. That's true. That's true.

That's true. Various corners of social media where opinions do vary. All right. Let's jump in first. I want to talk about this past weekend. Can we take a quick time out real quick? Of course. We do have to address the 160-pound elephant in the room.

Okay. Now, I'm in my hotel room in Las Vegas, so I don't know how long ago. This is a couple of fights ago, I think. and I watched Demetrius Andrade obliterate poor Jason Quigley. And I'm getting ready to go meet some people for dinner. And I'm like, oh, man, thank you. I don't have to watch this in the Uber and whatever. The fight's over, great.

And then I hear the biggest fight in boxing is Demetrius Andrade and Jamal Charlo. And I said, look, he's finally done it. Manix is drunk on the air. That's what's going on here. He finally did it. I just, in that moment, the hyperbole went to attend, man. It just went to a 10. I mean, there's a part of me that actually believes it.

Like, you know, I mean, I actually don't. You don't. Well, let me, I'll put it this way. I don't. I would want to, like if Anthony Joshua beats Alexander Usik, Fury Joshua, to me, is the biggest. But personally, I want to see Andrew Charlo more than I want to see. Oh, person. Yeah, from your personal perspective, I don't doubt that.

Well, these are my words. It was the biggest. My words, man. Am I somebody else? I said, wait, I said, listen, we're going to have, we're going to have to have them committed. He's gone completely bat shit crazy. Like, what is he talking about? It's pushed me to the edge. It's, it's, the lack of this fight happening is pushed me to the edge.

It has. It takes every, like, ounce of self-control not to, like, just verbally clobber Maricio Suleman every time I see him at these events and jump all over him. So, you know, well, that's a conversation for another day. When that fight doesn't come together at early 2022, we, can have that that conversation. Absolutely. I do want to talk about this past weekend before we look ahead.

Let's start where you were. Tank Davis, Esau Cruz, 135 pound fight. I expect this to be a tough fight for Tank Davis. Not necessarily because I thought Esau Cruz was a unheralded contender, a diamond in the rough, but I'm just not a big believer in Tank Davis. I think he's a good fighter, but he has been very carefully matched over the course of his career. And, you know, he fought a guy shorter than him for one of the first times. He had trouble all throughout. He got the decision. I scored a draw Keith watching from

from television. I have no problem with Davis getting the decision when it goes 115 and 113 the other way. That's how it goes. Like, you know, there are plenty of enough swing rounds there for me to believe that to be the case. Give me your impression sitting ringside of what you were watching. Did you agree with the decision? And what did that fight leave you taking away from Tank Davis? Well, just to clarify, we ain't ringside. We're in the orbit. We are further back, it seems, at every turn. Hey, welcome, Keith.

By the way, welcome to like that. I'm actually surprised boxing took that long. Like, as someone that got into the NBA reporting in the early 2000s, where I was right on the floor at Massacre Garden, at the TD Garden, everywhere, where you are now in the rafters in these events. It was only a matter of time. We should be thankful as, you know, speaking to yourself. and other friends of mine that cover the NBA,

they tell me you're like, on the moon, basically, watching these games. So I guess we have it better than they have it. And certainly I covered football for a long time, and you're really up top there too. So I guess we should be thanked. My only thing is we need to see the fights. And it's continually becoming a problem where they're putting us

in a situation where people are kind of walking in front of us. And they're not doing it intentionally. It's just that, you know, they have to fine tune it a little bit. So we're not in that predicament. You cannot write on deadline. responsibly and effectively when you have people walking in front. You just can't. And people standing up and they're there to have a good time and they don't care about

us writing on deadline. But when you don't want to be melodramatic, but you are recording history and you don't have a lot of time to screw around. So you need to see the fights. But anyway, from where I was sitting, from my vantage point, I thought Jervante Davis won, 115, 113, but I always say, Chris, when you're writing on deadline, writing, running and stuff, it's hard to score the fights accurately.

but I did think Jervante Davis did enough to win. I didn't think Esau Cruz did enough to win the fight, but he obviously won in losing the other night. If there's ever a case of someone doing that, it's Esau Cruz, right? Because people did not know who he was really. I mean, we obviously did. But most of the people inside of Staples Center came to see Jervante Davis violently knocked someone out,

and they don't necessarily care who that someone is. And I think Esau Cruz really developed some fans that night, among the people who came to see Javante Davis, they appreciated the effort that he put in. He's a tough guy. And one thing I'll say going into the fight, Chris, I didn't think Cruz was going to win, but I did think he would stick around at least toward the, you know, to the, two-thirds into the fight at least because I was looking at his head.

And he has one of those heads that looked like it would be very hard to hit in terms of when you hit it, you would feel it. And that turned out to be the case for Javante Davis, who came into the fight with a left-hand injury and further injured it. probably in about the fifth or sixth round. And he said he hit him so hard several times on the top of his head that he really did damage to his hand. Now, one thing I'll say, Chris, is I'm a little bit more of a believer in Jervante Davis's ability than you are. I'm with you on the way he's been matched very carefully, but he has, you know, before Sunday night had knocked out 24 of his 25 opponents.

They've been smart, careful, annoying to certain factions of people about how they've gone about matching him. but they've done a great job in cultivating his fan base. And the one thing that is undeniable, whatever anyone thinks of Jervante Davis is a billion. The one thing I don't think he gets enough credit for is how smart of a boxer he is. He's got a very high ring IQ, and I think he exhibited that on Sunday night. And he kept turning Issa Cruz and turning him and turning him and turning him.

I think the other thing that we might have learned about Jervante Davis on Sunday night that we might not have known before is he takes a pretty good shot. Now, Esau Cruz is not a huge puncher, but he can crack a little bit, and he hit him with some very flush punches, and Jervante Davis didn't go anywhere. So I can credit for that as well, but he's a B-level lightweight by Esau Cruz, you know, maybe better than people realize or certainly better than people realized. But he's not an A-level lightweight, and Tank had a tough fight. But that happens to guys on their way up. Chris, like it happened to Floyd Mayweather. There were guys that Floyd fought that gave him a little, I don't think he lost the first fight to Jose Luis Castillo.

you'd certainly get arguments from people to the contrary. And I'm not saying that Esau Cruz is Jose Luis Castillo, who was a borderline Hall of Fame fighter. But maybe it was that kind of fight for Davis, a learning fight, a tougher fight than people expected. And I think he showed some different things in his game in that fight that people might not have known about him before, despite disappointment that he didn't knock him out.

I think you nailed it actually with a tweet you put out before the fight and I remember reading it at the time where you said look, Issaq Cruz is not a big puncher. Four of his last five fights have gone to the decision. There's kind of this perception of him as a big puncher because of what happened in the Magdaleno fight where he knocked him out, which was a defining performance for Esau Cruz. He was kind of what you thought and kind of what I thought he was coming and he was durable.

He was rugged. A little bit better, better boxer I thought he was. And I thought Jibonte had some problems kind of dealing with that pressure. He did turn him and he did land flush shots. Cruz is hardheaded. Wasn't going anywhere. But Cruz was a little bit better than I thought he was going to be in that fight. As far as I don't, I don't know if like I look at that fight and say, all right,

Jervante is now moving up in the lightweight rankings. It's a win. You take it. You add it to your record. You move on. But it wasn't the kind of performance that had me walking away like a bigger believer in Jervante Davis. Yeah, you know, the one thing that going into the fight that I thought was interesting, and it played out exactly how people who know what they were watching were telling me going into the fight.

You know, Sean Gibbons, who is the president of Manny Packiao promotions, which promotes Esau Cruz, had pointed out in several other trainers did as well, is that Jervante Davis tends to get so much torque on his uppercut because he's used to fighting taller fighters. And he really was not able, he tried, but he really wasn't able to do that on Sunday night, because Esau Cruz is at least probably two inches shorter than him and Giovante Davis is not tall, but probably two inches shorter than him and he was crouching down a lot. And when he tried to get, you know, everything into those uppercuts that he tends to get and knocks people out in

violent ways, he wasn't able to do it. And then you throw in Esau Cruz's toughness and great chin and everything. And it made it difficult for Giovante Davis to knock it out. You're not going to knock everyone out. I mean, there's only one, there are two boxers, you know, at the top level. Virgil Ortiz Jr. is not really a champion. But Virgil Ortiz Jr. and Artur Betterbev have knocked out each of their opponents, but it's not common. So the fact that he went the distance doesn't take anything away from Giovante Davis's mystique or whatever you want to call it to me. But I'm with you in the sense that 2022 needs to be the year, Chris, that he fights

one of these guys that people want to see them, that want to see him. Let's let's talk. Let's talk. about that then, Keith, because you were at the press conference afterwards, Giovante Davis, Floyd Mayweather, Leonard L.R.R.B., the trainers and staff of Jervante Davis, did you walk away from that press conference thinking we're going to see Jervante Davis in with one of the top guys next year? Well, it's going to have to make financial sense, right? And they were really directing these comments, in my opinion, to, they weren't mentioning them by name, but they were directing these comments specifically toward Devin Haney and toward.

Ryan Garcia because they did try to make the Ryan Garcia fight last year. And that's something that had been told to me several months ago. You get varying degrees of how close they came to making it. But once Ryan Garcia and his team started to believe that that Manny Pacquiao fight was real, which it clearly was not. Then Gervante Davis's team understandably went in a different direction. They committed to the fight with Mario Barrios. And that's who he was fighting next. And then Garcia's team said, well, we came back. Well, I mean, coming back to a guy when you know he's committed to another fight is not really coming back to a guy in my opinion. But the one thing I would say as it relates to Ryan Garcia, please go fight somebody and get off of social media

because it's, I mean, it's getting a little annoying to the fighters, I'm sure. You're coming on social media after all their fights telling them, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do this. And you're pulling out of fights for various reasons. Just get back into the ring and start proving yourself again before you continue, like calling out people who are in dog fights against real guys and not pulling out of them and not, you know, spending their life on social media. Yeah, I agree. Ryan's got to get back. His first fight back will not be against Jervante Davis, but Javante, if the hand injury is significant, he's not, he's going to be on the shelf for a while anyway. Ryan Garcia, I would imagine from what I'm hearing, we'll be back some point in

March. The idea, at least for now, is to have him fight three times next year. And I'm with you. That middle fight, or at the very least, the last fight of 2022, should be against Jervante Davis. The question is, Keith, like, can it happen? Like, is Jervantes team going to insist that it's Garcia, Davis, on Showtime, pay-per-view on their terms? Or are they, sure, the answer is yes. I mean, I agree with you.

I completely agree with you. But, like, what I would say to that, like, if Golden Boy, because of their new deal that's pending with DeZone, which loves Ryan Garcia. I can tell you that firsthand. He does excellent numbers for them on the platform. And DeZone is also dipping its foot into pay-per-view next year. We all know that. If DeZone wants to get in the mix, would they be open to doing it together?

I think the answer is no. I think that's, I think that is what's going to detonate that fight before it even start. That's disappointing to me because that is a great fight in the lightweight division. Yeah, I could see that becoming the obvious competition. application, Chris. I think they're going to do their business on Showtime because Al Heyman is loyal to the Showtime brand. So is Floyd Mayweather and Giovante Davis to a lesser degree because he's in business with both of them. And they're guiding his career, of course. I do think it would

have to be on Showtime pay-per-view. And I guess that would, as it relates to Ryan Garcia and his team, how badly do you want the fight? Right. And I'm not saying that's fair. And I'm not saying that that's the way it should go. I'm saying that is the way it's going to go like it or not. So if you want to fight Jervante Davis, you're going to fight him on Showtime pay-per-view or you're not fighting him. Now, that's going to open up Floyd Mayweather and Leonard Lerby and Jervante Davis to criticism. But that's just the one thing I will say is Ryan Garcia has a lot of Instagram followers. He's very popular, but he is nowhere near as proven as a gate attraction or as a pay-per-view fighter as Jervante Davis. So I think that they do have

leverage, and I do think they have the numbers to back that up. Now, he's not a 500,000, thousand pay-per-view buy per fight fighter but he's a 200,000 per fight fighter and there aren't many of those left in boxing. So I do think they have the leverage there. And look, the kids numbers, I don't have the how many tickets were sold yet. We're trying to get that information from the California State Athletic Commission, but he's selling tickets. They're not giving away tickets to these fights. And the one thing I noticed at his fights, it seems to me when, because I've been at all of Tank Davis's, I was in Baltimore. when he sold out Royal Farm's Arena.

I was in State Farm Arena when he did big numbers there twice. And they did a $4 million gate for his fight against Mario Barrios. No one knows who Mario Barrios is. And they did a $4 million gate. And those people were there to see Tank Davis. He is a star. I mean, there aren't that many, I mean, how many people and how many fighters in American boxing do bigger numbers than him?

Canelo, obviously, right? He's not American, but in American boxing. Tyson Fury. I guess, but you got to put him in with the right guy. I mean, Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder made magic together. They didn't make magic separately. You know, Tyson Fury certainly did. And I was there when he fought Otto Vuelin.

And I don't know, there might have been less people there than were there for the Devin Haney fight against Jojo Diaz on Saturday. He's like, you know, so you need the dance partner, whereas Davis is filling arenas against people that, fighters that people don't know. And frankly, the people who are coming to the fights, I don't think they care all. that much. Yeah, they're there to see him. Yeah, to see him, him operate there. One thing, in addition to the network issues that could create problems for that fight, I agree with you, the Davis is the A-side. He's the bigger attraction, but you also can't treat Ryan Garcia like

he's Issa Cruz. You can't treat him like you're doing him in favor coming over. I mean, Ryan, for, you know, he's a budding star. He's not a star in terms. He's not a star in terms of of attraction and the way Jervantes become, but he does have that huge social media following. He does have a perfect record. He does have a team behind him. He's got Team Canello operating behind him. And he does, even though they're not released from what I understand,

does really good numbers in terms of viewership when he fights on his own. So I don't, it can't be one of those situations. And this is often how Floyd operated at times in his career where you say, all right, we're going to give you this. Even remember the early negotiation with Paciow? Floyd was like, here, take a 40 million guarantee or whatever it was. Like, you can't treat guys like that. And I think Manny wound up making somewhere near $130 million was his takeaway from that fight.

So obviously he was being undervalued there. But the one thing I'll say is it relates to social media. And this isn't a shot at Ryan Garcia or anyone else. Social media is not real life. So to some degree, it's not real life. I mean, Devin Haney has over a million Instagram followers, right? you were there on Saturday night and it was a tough fight and Jojo Diaz is not a transcendent star or anything but he's a guy who always brings his best effort a former world champion you knew it was going to be a good fight it was going to be a dog fight and no one came whatever crowd it was they were there for Jojo Diaz right so if you're so my point is is if you're devon Haney I as terence crawford told me a few weeks ago whoopty damn do that you have a 1.1 million uh Instagram followers

If it doesn't translate to people buying tickets or to people watching the fights, who really cares? If it doesn't make a difference, you know, you can say it and maybe it makes you feel good, but if it doesn't translate to people investing in this sport, it does not matter. So Ryan Garcia, while he has a lot, he's a very popular, and I think that's kind of why Gervante Davis said what he said after the fight. He said he's an Instagram fighter. He said he was a pretty girl and other things as well. but he said he was an Instagram fighter. And look, I mean, the kid has to prove at some point.

And I do agree with you, Chris. It's completely unfair to expect Ryan Garcia to come off a one-year layoff and fight Jervante Davis. That's not happening and that's not realistic. But I think there needs to be some tangible proof. And maybe that might be from the DeZone people releasing the numbers to the Showtime, however they're going to do this deal, proving to them how many people have watched his fights, because they're certainly not going to take people's word for it.

You know, I mean, there's going to have to, you know, and maybe they could come to an agreement where everything is kept, you know, under wraps and it's not able to be released to the public or whatever to prove what his value is because you can't, you know, in boxing, everyone's full of shit to some degree, right? So you're not going to take people's word for it, you know. So. Yeah. I look, I walk the fight itself, putting that aside, I watch back at press conference. I don't get the sense that in the first, at least the first six months of next year, Germanty Davis's next fight. It's not going to be some. that we want to see. It's just not. I don't believe, and we'll get to this in a minute, but I don't believe they're going to be aggressive in terms of going after a fight against George Cambosis. They have not shown any interest in a fight against Devin Haney, the Lomachenko stuff. That's not even worth discussing at this point. I think we're more likely, Keith, to see some PBC fighter. Maybe it's Raleigh Romero if he gets through his legal troubles right now, or at least his troubles with being accused of sexual assault. That feels to me like it's the

likely outcome for the first half of next year. I'm with you, Chris. I do think that if Roli Romero is not charged with a crime and this, for lack of better words, goes away, I do think that his first, Jervante Davis's first opponent of 2022 will be Roli Romero. Now, that's a big if, because, you know, this is still being investigated and such. But so I would expect that to be his first fight of 2022. I guess what we're talking about more so is his second fight of 2022. And if that fight isn't against someone that the public you, me, everyone involved in the media really wants to see him fight. Well, then you really have to question how they're going to move forward there because then he's going on 28 years old. He's not, he's not old, obviously, but he's in the heart of his

physical prime. But how much longer, because we're at the point now with Jervante Davis that he's probably a twice a year type of fighter. He's being paid a lot of money. His fights are exclusively on pay-per-view. There aren't too many guys that do three pay-per-view fight. You know, Canello's an anomaly, of course. I mean, three pay-per-view type of fights per year. So, you know, I want to see that second fight, and I'm not crazy about the first fight being against Roli Romero, although there's some bad blood there, and they'll be able to promote the fight and all that.

But not crazy about that being his first fight, but just being realistic, I think that probably would be his first fight if Rale Romero gets past his legal troubles. And then does he fight Ryan Garcia, Devin Haney? Well, those are the two, right? I mean, because T. Afima Lopez, of course. Ryan, look, we're getting to the point, too, where Devin's gone. I think if Devin gets this Cambosis fight, he wins, he's out after that.

He might stick around for, if he can get a Gervante fight before the end of 2022, I think Devin would make wait for it. But, I mean, the last couple of fights I've been around Devin. I know what hard it is for him to get down to 135. He's 23 years old. He's a big framed kid. He's growing into that frame by the month. He'll cut weight for George Cambosis.

He would cut weight for a 22 fight with Jervante Davis. doesn't happen next year. I think Devin's long gone. I love Devin Haney's answer after the fight, which I'm sure he had he had planned to say after the fight. When you asked him, would you go to Australia? And he said he would go to Jupiter for the fight. So I thought that was a funny answer. But and true, he'll go anywhere he has to to fight George Cambosis. But what I've been led to believe, Chris, you know, behind the scenes and talking to people involved, I'm not 100% sure that George Cambosis is going to fight one of these elite level lightweights in his first fight in Australia. I think he might take an optional defense of his title,

sort of a victory lap in his first defense of the title, either in a stadium or an arena, because I know they keep throwing this 80,000 seat thing around. That is not easy to do. No. You know, Jeff Horn's fight against Manny Pachial, and again, he's fighting Manny Pachial, drew 50-something thousand people in Australia,

and I don't know that George Cambosis is as big as, well, Jeff Horn became big by beating Manny Pachial, but I don't know that he's as popular there, because Tiafimo Lopez is certainly not as big of a name as Manny Pachia. So I don't know that he's bigger. He's a better fighter, probably, but I don't know that he's a bigger attraction than Jeff Horn. So what I'm getting at, though, is I think maybe George Cambosis is talked into, by his people, taking a lesser fight and a voluntary defense in his first fight and then fighting either Devin Haney.

And I would not be surprised if Gervante Davis is in a mix for that because it would not be in Australia. it would be in the, because again, they're going to try to call the shots. But if you pay George Cambosis enough, I think he would go to Jupiter too, right? I mean, it's about, this is all about dollars and cents. So he's not going to take these, these lightweight titles to Australia and set up camp there for five years and try to defend, you know, he's going to have, he's going to go where the money is. Like everyone follows the money in boxing. And I think he'll do the same thing. And I think he'll be satisfied if he goes and makes a voluntary defense against whomever and win, and he'll retains his titles.

He gets that out of his system. and then he'll go where the most money is available for him. And I think, I'm sorry to cut you off, but I think the most money available would be for fighting Gervante Davis and fighting Devin Haney. Yeah, a few things. There's a lot of moving parts when it comes to Cambos's next fight. I do believe, and you've probably heard the exact same things,

that people on Cambost's side are kind of lining up that tune-up, right? That whoever that guy may be in Australia to have that optional defense, can they convince George Cambosos to do it? Like George, last and point blank on last Saturday, like there's a lot of people that believe what you just said there, Keith, that you are going to take an optional defense. He said, absolutely not. I don't want an optional defense.

It does nothing for me. I'm going to go straight into another big fight. Now, money can change all that, right? Like you can say, take this fight. It's easy, make a lot of money, and then we'll move on to the next deal. So that's certainly possible. Why I think a deal, a co-promotional deal with matchroom, DeZone,

whatever you want to call it, is, I lean that that will be the direction he goes for now is because I think George is going to want a multi-fight deal with whoever he links up with. It's not going to be, I'll take X million to fight Jervante Davis, or X million to fight Devin Hanyar, X million to fight Vasily Lomachenko. He's going to want a comeback fight after that, and maybe even one more. I mean, from what I've been hearing, they're looking for like a three-fight deal in his next kind of pact with somebody.

There's only so many options that are out there. Like, can BBC present enough money and options for Cambosts to have three fights on that side? I don't believe top rank can do it, at least not right now with the guys it has at 135. On the matchroom to zone side, you have Devin Haney, you have Ryan Garcia. Hell, you have Jojo Diaz. If there's like a, quote, comeback fight, if George needs it,

Jojo Diaz against George Campos is a pretty good fight. Like, that's a pretty fun fight between two guys at that way. So, look, I'm not predicting anything right now. It's way too soon to predict anything. I just think that if you're looking for multi-fights, and that's what I think Cambosa's side is going to look for, there's one clear frontrunner right now just because of the options that are available on the matchroom Golden Boy side

of the proverbial street. Yeah, and it's an important moment in George Cambos's career, obviously, not only from a historical standpoint, but from a financial standpoint, because Oh, yeah, cash in. You have to make the smartest decision for the long-term future of you, your family, and everyone involved in your career, because, Chris, go back to where Haseem Rockman was when he knocked out Lennox Lewis, right? He was offered this four-fight, what was it, 70 million, whatever number it was back in

2001. It was an enormous amount of money for back then by Don King, and he turned it down, and then he got knocked out by Lennox Lewis and the rematch, and he never recouped that money. He was still a high-level fighter. He had big fights that he only fought Holyfield, and there were other big fights for him after that, but he never recouped the money that he should have made had he just taken that four-fight deal after he knocked out Lennox Lewis. So you have to be careful because, you know, George Campos is a good fighter, proved to us that he's better than we realized. but, you know, if he fights Devin Haney or Javante Davis or Ryan Garcia or even Jojo D.S is no easy out for anybody, you very easily could lose and then you have no leverage and

and no money. Or not no money, but you don't have the amount of money you should have been able to make in this prime moment of your career. So, Keith, I'd be worried for Cambosis, depending on who they get for him, like if he does go the route of the quote, tune up in Australia, people worried about that. I mean, Cambos has fought the fight of his life against Tamfima Lopez, but before that, he was split decision with Lee Selby and Mickey Bay. So, I mean...

To be fair to him, he beat Lee Selby convincingly, and one judge had it completely out of whack. So that should have been the unanimous. I know what you're saying, but that should have been unanimous decision. I know, I get your point, though. He was, he did... I was there when he fought Mickey Bay, and it was a back and forth type of fight that, you know, he was a close fight.

So I get you, so I understand what you're saying, Chris. and it's you know the guy i understand what they want in their hearts right you want to go he wants to go and fight tank davis and he wants to go and fight devon hayne he wants to go because he wants to prove i'm the man that he just you know he proved a whole hell of a lot there on november 27th but he wants to further prove himself against the top fighters in the division but you have to be smart and you have to you you have to cash in when the opportunities are there for you and he has smart you know lu de bell is a smart guy man i mean he's not you know lou's been involved in boxing at the highest level.

He's crazy, but he's smart. Well, that's why we love him, though, right? Yes. So, but he will make, he will try to guide George as best he can here to capitalize on, on this massive financial opportunity for him. And hopefully Cambosis will do this smart. Like, I don't have any problem with him taking a quote unquote tune up type of voluntary defense in his next fight.

As long as it's not in July, you know, it's, you know, he did get banged up pretty good in the Lopez fight. there's a rough fight for both guys. He's a fast healer, though. You see him on Sun Sunday? He looked pretty good. When you guys were talking to him on camera and stuff, he looked pretty good.

Yeah, he looked pretty good. Yeah, he's, so, yeah, I think he's targeting May for his next fight, and that puts him kind of on that two-fight in 2022 path. I don't know. It's, again, you're right. I think for Cambosis, and we'll put a button on this conversation part of it here,

like it just get the most guaranteed money. You know, guarantee yourself, two fights, three fights, whatever it is, get the most guaranteed money because this is your shot right now. This is your golden ticket. You got to cash in because you don't know what's going to come down the pipe. If you just do a one-fight deal or whatever it is, get the most guaranteed money you can right now and take advantage of these opportunities.

I want to ask you about what you saw in Devin Haney this past Saturday, beats Jojo Diaz by unanimous decision. I had it the same way two of the judges did 117, 111. Haney's an excellent boxer. He wants you to believe and he wants to show he has some power. He doesn't really. He also has vulnerabilities there. I mean, in May, we saw Hori Lanars clip him in the 10th round.

I thought he was shook a little bit in the 12th round of this fight against Jojo Diaz. But he comes away with a fairly wide decision. What was your takeaway from watching that fight? You know, Chris, I always say to people when they say, oh, well, the guy showed, I don't mean you, obviously, but some people say, oh, he showed some vulnerability. Yeah, that's what makes fighters fascinating. When you have the type of talent that Devin Haney has, and he's not. not a big puncher. He's an average

puncher. I'm not saying he doesn't have anything behind his shots, but he's not a big puncher. Certainly not Giovante Davis. He's not Tiofima Lopez. He's not a huge puncher. But he's fun to watch because he has incredible boxing ability. He's a very athletic guy. He's got a very

high ring IQ. He's got the whole package except being a big puncher, right? But what I think he showed against Jojo Diaz, and I think you're right, Chris, I think he won probably nine rounds of the fight. Jojo was reasonably competitive, but didn't come anywhere close to winning. But he brought it. It wasn't a hard fight to score in my mind.

It wasn't. They were pretty clear those rounds. Absolutely. And Jojo came to fight like he always does. That's what we always get at, Jojo Diaz. I think that's why people appreciate him and respect him. But as far as Devin Haney goes, I think he showed a lot on Saturday night by making it a dog fight. I thought, you know, while he could have made it easier on himself by boxing circles around Jojo Diaz,

he stood his ground oftentimes and probably made it a little harder on himself than it needed to be. But I think that people appreciated that. They saw that it was a tough fight. He stood in there and he fought Jojo Diaz. Now, Jojo Diaz is while I respect, you know, all the things I just said about him, I meant, he's not a big puncher either and he's not really a lightweight. So, you know, so there were those things working against him. But I was very impressed with what I saw from Devin Haney the other night.

you know the business part of it it wasn't a great night for him from a business perspective because the small crowd and it didn't the fight had no business being an mGM grand garden arena it's a 16,000 seat arena it belonged enough you know there are other venues in Vegas three four thousand seats it would look much better with the with the building packed and everything but um that aside I was I walked away from that fight very impressed with devon Haney and the fact that again he showed some vulnerability makes me want to see him against the top guys even more because those are going be fun fights. If he fights Durante Davis at some point, he's going to get

clipped with a shot, and he's going to have to fight his way out of it. That's just inevitable, right? But he's also a masterful boxer, and his length and his jab, and he's just a really smart fighter. He'll give everyone fits. So I don't think he

damaged his brand at all inside the ring. I thought it was a win-win for him, and I'm looking forward to see whoever he fights next. He is a masterful boxer. He might be the best pure boxer amongst those young fighters in 135-pound division. Lomachenko obviously is in a class kind of by himself. But, I mean, he fights like a guy that's 7, 8, 9 years older.

I mean, his punch placement is great. His accuracy is great. His movement is great. His footwork. You know, he was going up against a south paw for one of the first times of his career. And he looked like a guy's been fighting one, you know, every other fight. Like he was really good in that regard. There is that, and I said this on the air, there is that kind of devil-lawful.

on his shoulder that wants to prove he can bang. Like, it's just like his, I don't want to call it an Achilles heel because I love it. But I'm sure that Bill Haney, Ben Davison, all the smart people in his corner, at times during that fight, probably say box more, like, you know, move a little bit more. Don't start throwing haymakers with guys. But, but like that vulnerability, as you said, makes him good TV. I'm just, it does strike me that he has not been able to gain traction with an American fan base yet. He does have the followers on social media,

but whether it's Lenaris or now Jojo Diaz, I was at both those fights. They were both pro other fighter than Kevin Haney crowds. Like he just, he has not been able to pull a real fan base, which I guess is a little bit surprising to me. Yeah, very much so because like I said, he's a fascinating guy to watch.

And he, look, his, that devil on his shoulder that you're talking about, it's eventually going to cost him. You know, it's going to be his downfall at some point in a fight. because he's going to try to bang it out. When you're not a banger and you try to bang it out with a banger, it's not going to go your way at some point. But he's going to beat a lot of guys too because he's just so good.

He's so smart, so talented and all the things you said. Like he's such an accurate puncher. His footwork is amazing. I mean, you know, I would like to see him fight Lomachenko. You know, I think that would be an interesting fight. But again, it goes back to the business side of it. When they tried to make Devin Haney against Vizili Lomachenko, which they tried to make for this Saturday night,

Devin Haney's people ask for $5 million. in this market he's not worth $5 million. Certainly not to fight Facilio Lomachenko. Now, the reason they're asking for $5 million is he's being paid more than half of that to fight other guys. So they think that's what their market value is. It's an artificial market. And I understand why it is what it is because the zone and match room have, you know, they've tried to cultivate him into a star.

And he's the U.S. fighter that they have that they're building their brand around. Now that Canello is gone. And Ryan Garcia to an extent as well, of course, with Golden Boy, not matchroom. But so I understand why they're asking for the money, but you're not getting paid $5 million to fight Vasily Lomachenko on ESPN. It's not happening. So if he's going to come to negotiating table to fight, let's just say,

Jervante Davis, and he said, well, I want $7 million to fight Javis. That's kind of like saying you don't want the fight. No, I agree with you. I mean, at some point, I know it didn't work out for him in the way he thought it was going to work out, the way it maybe could have worked out, if circumstances were different, but like what Teofimo did with Lomachenko, he bet on himself and he believed that would be a springboard into bigger and better things. Now, it didn't turn out that way because of the pandemic and then because of a lot of issues he had going into that

fight against Cambosis. But I like that attitude, right? So if you get offered a fight against George Cambosis, don't ask for the moon. Like, you know, get, you're going to that, but you'd probably be the favorite going up against Cambosis. You win that fight, all of a sudden, you're the undisputed lightweight champion. Then you've got some options. Then you can start asking for that kind of money and start building towards that kind of money. It's just, you know, that's a big problem right now with some of these guys that all are getting paid X when they probably shouldn't be. And when they're talking about matching up with each other, it doesn't make financial sense. Yeah. I agree. And that's why, Chris, I think while a lot of the things

that Floyd Mayweather and Leonard Elaby have said have frustrated fans, they're right. And I believe reporters in that room? Did they? Oh, without. Listen, I didn't know. Leonard doesn't frustrate me or annoy me, but Floyd certainly does because he says, I don't want to go off on a tangent on Floyd Mayweather here, but for a person with the platform and the power he has within this industry, I'll just say that a lot of the things that he says are wildly irresponsible, not based on fact.

and he should know better than to say them. I don't know what his hang up is with like people. Like he kept, he repeatedly said before the fight, before the Davis Cruz fight and after that the reason that Jervante Davis is not getting the credit that he, that Floyd feels that he deserves is because the media or the fans or a combination thereof dislike him. Now they might very well. You don't, he oftentimes does not make himself likable to the to the every man for sure.

I would say though, you and I are two, you and I are two media members. members keep that that that Floyd maywether my opinion of him has nothing to do with my opinion of Jibonte it yeah yeah because we're adults and we're professionals and and I don't I don't take any of this personally I mean I took offense to some of what Floyd said uh just having having covered this sport for 25 years and and done it in a way that I think is uh down the middle and ethical so I do take offense to him saying that like you know we're uh disparaging Javon David's because we don't like Floyd. I don't really care. Like Floyd Mayweather's one of the best fighters to ever live. I've said that a million times. Not that my opinions matters more than the

average fan or anything, but the point is he's a great fighter and he builds these imaginary enemies. And unfortunately for Giovante Davis and a lot of other people makes everything about him. Let Trevante Davis have his moment. Don't turn everything about Jervante Davis into something about you. It's everything's not about him. Like, like what, like, just. for arguments sake, if you thought, even if you really dislike Floyd, which I don't, what do I, you know, I go cover the fights and then I go home to life, to real life. Like, I'm not sitting here worrying about Floyd Mayweather or whatever. So again, I think that speaks to his ego. But that's not reality. You know, like people are not consumed with what Floyd Mayweather's saying or thinking or

doing. And the reason, unfortunately, for Giovante Davis that he has not gotten the pound for pound credit that they think he deserves is because he has not fought the people that people want to see him fight. Now, one thing I will agree with what Floyd said is I didn't think going into the Esau Cruz fight that Gervante Davis had gotten enough credit. You know, you could have argued maybe that he was a number 10 or number nine pound for just because he's viciously knocking out fighters. Now, he's been matched smartly and carefully, but he's viciously knocking people out. And you could, what I will say is like, I think sometimes people go a little, I mean, meaty people, and fans go a little overboard in the lower weight classes.

Like, you know, I don't think Juan Francisco Estrada is the number nine pound for pound fighter in the world. I don't. He's very good. He's fun to watch. Chocolatito was, people thought he was shot a couple of years ago and now he beat Chocolatito and now he really didn't. And now he's number nine or number 10 on the list.

So quibbling about that, I could understand that. But the primary reason, if you're a rational, intelligent person, person, the real reason that Gervante Davis had not gotten a pound for pound credit that Floyd thinks that he deserves. And I understand him thinking he deserves it. He's a promoter. He should. Even if he doesn't believe it, he should say it because he's a promoter. So instead of spending time with these wacky conspiracy theories about people hating him, he should realize that if you put the guy in the ring with the people, people want to see him fight, he'll get more credit for what he's doing.

He would. But, you know, one thing I said, and you may disagree, but I still believe it, is that I don't, deep down, I don't think they believe that Gervante can beat a Devin Haney or beat a Teofima Lopez. My frustration, Keith, was that, like flashback to January of this year, all the lightweights at that point were available, right? You know, you hadn't had the purse bid yet for Teofima versus Cambosus. Ryan Garcia was coming off that win over Luke Campbell, which is the biggest win. of his career. Devin Haney was out there putting his hand up. I mean, money is an issue when you're negotiating, as we just talked about. Chris, not to cut you, but they did try to make the Ryan Garcia

fight. And Ryan Garcia walked away from it. So I don't know, that's not their fault, right? Okay. Putting Ryan Garcia on it, fine, you're, all right, that is, they did do that. But all the other guys that are out there, like, they were, they had options. Like, they could have pursued other fights. Instead, they went to Mario Barrios at 140, whatever. They go to Raleigh Romero at 1.35. I don't know what Raleigh Ramiro did to deserve a fight with Jibonte Davis besides talking a lot of smack about him. And then when he falls out, they go to Issa Cruz.

Like, I just, I don't feel like there's been any kind of effort to be made to consistently try to make big fights. Like they're not calling top rank to try to make a fight with Vassili Lomachenko. They're not calling, certainly not pushing to do a Devin Haney fight right now. I just, I mean, this guy's 27 years old. It's time to see what he's got. And until we see him in against these top guys. guys, he'll get paid.

And look, if you're a boxer and you're getting paid for, you're getting higher reward for lower risk, you're selling tickets, you're making millions of dollars, you're not putting yourself at maximum risk, okay, great. Like, you know, you're putting your life on the line out there, not me. But at the end of the day, you don't get the respect and so you beat the top guys. As simple as that. Like, there's no two ways about it. You have to face top guys to get the universal respect.

That's how, look, Floyd, and I'm repeating myself a little bit from a couple of podcasts ago, but like, Floyd, he got his respect early. He beat Janara Hernandez at age 20. He beat Josea Luis Castillo twice. He beat Diego Corrales. He went to Jersey to beat Arturo Gotti. Like, he did these things. Like Floyd's talking about this guy getting respect.

He didn't do anything things Floyd did. Like, Floyd did these things. Yeah. And of course, they're trying to follow the Floyd Mayweather blueprint. But I don't think that that's realistic. Now, I understand the smart matchmaking and being careful about who you're fighting. There's not going to be another Floyd Mayweather. There's not going to be another boxer who makes $800, $900,000.

That's not happening, but primarily because Giovante Davis, nor anyone else, has Oscar De La Jolla waiting in the wings to fight because that's really when Floyd Mayweather became Floyd Mayweather. You know, forget everything that happened thereafter, which he, you know, they obviously did an amazing job building his brand and his empire and everything. But he made $10 million to fight Oscar de La Jolla, which in 2007 is a lot of money for a prize fight. but he didn't make $30 million to fight Oscar De La Jolla. He was the B side against Oscar De La Jollaoy and his guarantee was $10 million. He went in there.

He beat Oscar De La Jolla, despite what some people might think. I think he can, I thought he won the fight, no problem. But that changed his entire career trajectory. And there's no one like that for like if just let's say Javon Tavis fought Vasily Lomachenko, who's the older guy, the former champion and all that. He ain't Oscar de La Jolla. So you're not going to, you know, it would be a tough fight. but let's say Gervante Davis goes in there in a real tough fight and beats Vassili Lomachenko.

Well, his career from a financial standpoint is not going to change the way that Floyd Mayweather's career changed when he beat Oscar De La Jolla. There's no De La Jolla there. So he doesn't exist. So I don't know, you know, that he, while they're following the Floyd Mayweather blueprint. And look, if I'm Javis, yeah, I'm going to, no matter what I think about, you know, whatever personal things have happened between them, which have been well documented and whatever. and maybe they've repaired it to the point where it's better or whatever. You can't argue with the fact that the guy, look what he did. I mean, you can't, as much as he might annoy us with some of the things that he says, these unfounded accusations and all this nonsense, there's no arguing with the fact that the guy did it better than anyone else.

Whatever, however you think he avoided Margarito or whatever people say, like on our website on our website and the forums and all that kind of stuff, all the things that they've been saying for 15 years, short of all that, the guy made almost a billion dollars in boxing. I mean, think about that. He fought Connor McGregor, who had not boxed before and made how much money, you know, 200 plus million dollars. He just fought Logan Paul and somehow convinced 1.1 million people to buy it, despite that the guy has barely boxed. I mean, they know what from a business standpoint. They know what they're doing. So I understand that while the fighter in Gervante Davis, because I don't doubt for a second,

Javante Davis comes from the worst of the worst in Baltimore, right? He comes from the worst neighborhood, fought himself out of the most impoverished situation. I don't think that he's afraid to fight anybody. I don't think most fighters are afraid to fight anybody, but they're going to follow this Floyd Mayweather blueprint. And to some degree, you can't blame him because this is about walking. Now, you want your legacy to be as strong as it could be, but this is about setting up your family for generations, right?

He has two daughters now and he's being paid well for these fights. And they're going to follow this blueprint. But I do think he's got to be saying behind the scenes, like he can't be fine. Jervante Davis can't be fine with people saying he's afraid to fight Ryan Garcia. Then I ain't going to sit well with a guy who comes from where he comes from. No, he's not afraid. And like you said, no fighter is really afraid.

I'd just like to see Jervantes start putting some pressure on the people around him to make these fights happen. because fighters can't have influence. We saw just this last month where Sean Porter, you know, said, I want this fight with Tarns Crawford. Let's make it happen. Even the Jojo Diaz-Devin-Haney fight. I mean, Jojo-Diaz didn't have to fight Devin Haney. Like, he could have waited a couple of months or three months

and fought Ryan Garcia in the first quarter of next year. But he said, look, make the money work. I'll make that fight happen. Like, fighters can have influence. And if Jervante wants the respect that's commensurate with him get what he gets paid, and kind of his profile amongst fans. Like you got to fight one of these top guys. You got to do it at some point.

2022, his age 28 year. That's going to be the year to do it. All right, let me look forward for a minute here and talk about facility Lomacheco. Not necessarily about the fight against Comey. He's going to be a big favorite in that fight. But like, where does Lomachenko go now? Because you had Tea Fima. Like if Teah Fima won and he'd been able to make 135 for his next fight.

you would have had top rank push for a rematch between Teo and Lomacheco. What do you have taken it? I don't know. But that was like the natural fight that's out there. Now you got Lomachenko. And let's say he beats Comey, which I believe he will, going into 2022 in kind of an uncertain world. Like can top rank make a deal for Lomachenko to face Campos?

And if they can't, what does he do at lightweight? We know Bob Aram is already publicly pushing for a fight against Chikor Stevenson. wants that fight at 130. I actually like that fight at 130. I think Lomachenko is better at 130 pounds. And at 130 pounds, there's Chikor Stevenson. There's Oscar Valdez. There are better options for Lomachenko there than he has right now at 135.

What do you think the next year looks like for Lomachenko? I spoke to Vizili Lomachenko on the phone a few days ago, and he told me that he wants to fight at 135 pounds. Like unequivocally, that's what he does not want to go down. down to 130. Now maybe that's a little bit of a negotiating ploy because they want him to fight Chikour Stevenson, which is an excellent fight that I think we would all want to see. But Chris, to be fair, if we're going to criticize Jervante Davis for where he's at in his career and who he's fighting, the bottom line is Vesili Lomachenko is fighting Tiafima Lopez's leftovers since he fought Tiafima Lopez. He fought an Akatani in June. And now he's fighting

Richard Comey, who, while a powerful fighter and a former, like, weight champion was flat out destroyed by Tia Fimo Lopez two years ago at Madison Square Garden. There's no reason whatsoever for Vasilio Lomachenko to fight Richard Comey, except that you can't get him. Now, it's not easy to get him the other fights because they did try to make the Haney fight and all that. But the bottom line is he's fighting guys that Tiafimo Lopez beat. And he has no one to blame for this, but himself and his team. Because I have repeatedly said this before and after the fight. The fact that they did not get a rematch clause inserted into the contract for the Tiafima Lopez

fight was a strategic mistake. Now, he made a strategic mistake in the fight and that he didn't start fighting until six rounds into it. So that's on him also. And when he fought in the second half of the fight, it was an excellent high level fight. And he came back and made it much closer than it actually was on the scorecards. But I think the biggest mistake that they made because he had the leverage and he was the champion and Lopez was desperate for that fight, they could have and should have put a rematch clause in that contract. Now, I've been told from people that work with top rank, oh, well, that's not real.

Why not? Everybody else does it. Everybody else does it. And it wasn't a mandatory fight where you couldn't insert a rematch clause into it. It was a mistake. And it's been proven to be a mistake because he has fought Nakatani and Richard Comey in his two fights since he lost to Lopez. And under no circumstances was Tiafima Lopez after all the things that Vasilil Lomachenko said about him, he was not giving him a rematch.

Now, you could argue that turned out to be a mistake too, because maybe he would have made more money than he even made for fighting George Cambosis in the rematch. But he was not going to give Vasily Lomachenko the satisfaction of fighting him again after he beat him in the fight. So, you know, I think maybe Lomachenko and his team deserve more criticism here than Tank Davis and his team because what is he doing? He's fighting Richard Comey Saturday night at Madison Square Garden.

And I don't want to disres, Richard Comey's a hard-hitting guy. He comes to fight and everything. But what is beating Richard Comey doing for Vasilis, other than fattening his bank account a little bit, what is it doing for Vasilio Lomachenko's legacy for anything, really? Well, do you think he took that fight, and not to excuse it, because I think you're right, but I think he took that fight believing that Tafim was going to win and believing he just needed another fight going into 2022 to prepare him for that rematch. Like I think, well, Top Reich was going to push for that rematch.

Chris, he has to fight somebody. I'm not saying, you know, he's got to fight somebody. But again, this is, I mean, there's no way around the fact that he's fighting Tiafima Lopez's leftovers. I mean, there's no two ways about it, right? I mean, I agree. I think, for me, where I start to criticize Lomachenko is next year is if he goes into next year and if he's so stubborn about staying at 135 and the Cambosis fight doesn't come together, what does he do? Like, can they, I don't think they can make a fight with Jervante Davis. It doesn't seem like that's something that's even remotely been described.

And beyond that, like, what are we talking about? Like, what's there for him at 135 that's easy to make? And if you're George Cambosis and you have all these options, that's not the guy I'm fighting. I'm not fighting Lomachenko. Why would you fight him? I mean, it's the most complicated style of all of them. And he's still, you know, what is he 33, 34 now? I mean, he's getting up there a little bit.

But I wouldn't fight him. You know, and he has no, you know, losing the titles. He has no leverage. I mean, he's still. You talk to him, Keith. Why I didn't think he doesn't want to go back to one-third? You think it's the weight? Like he doesn't want to cut that five pounds?

Because we've watched him rise from 126 on up. I think he's so much better at 130. Like he is a much better fighter at 130. Yeah, I think so too. I tried to ask him that. I didn't really get a straight answer, to be honest with you. And again, I don't know maybe if that's a negotiating ploy by them because they know, look, top rank does not want to put, for whatever reason,

is hell bent on not putting Oscar Valdez in the ring with Chikor Stevenson. Now, I think it's because they think Stevenson would beat him. But Stevenson has, earn that fight. He went and, excuse me, he went and beat Jamel Herring to get one of the titles. And now it would be a unification fight. And Oscar Valdez, let's be honest, he ducked them at 126 pounds. And now, and now he says he wants to fight him. And it would be a unification fight. I mean, if you're Shakur Stevenson and his team, I'd be pretty annoyed that they don't want you to fight Oscar Valdez, right? So, so they want, supposedly they want to put him in a ring with

Lomachenko, which is clearly a tougher fight for Shakur Stevenson. But is Lomachanko going to do it? Because what's really to gain for Lomachenko? Not really a whole lot. All right, so you go back, just let's say he goes and fights, you know, he acquiesces and goes and fights at 130 pounds. Well, he has already been a 130 pound champion. It's not like it adds anything to his resume. Now, if they pay him enough, if he might do it.

But that's a tough fight. It's not an easy fight for, not an easy fight for either guy, but I don't know if it makes sense for Lomachenko. I agree. You'd have to get paid, but I think for Lomachenko, you fight and beat Chikorraeufon. and then you fight and beat Oscar Valdez. It's a pretty good year for you.

Then you can pursue being undisputed at 130. Yeah. I mean, it's something. It's just, I just look around 135 and, you know, you got Haney chasing Cambosis. Ryan Garcia still, let's get him back in the ring first. Jervante. Again, I don't see Jervante against Lomachenko. What are you going to do?

Like, what are you pursuing a 135 that makes any kind of sense right now? It just doesn't, like, you know, Jojo Diaz? Like, it doesn't, like, there's nothing there that. That does it for me. So we'll see. I'd like to, bottom line, I'd like to see him go back to 130. Like to see me acquiesced to that. There's a couple of big fights he could be in at 130.

Chikor Stevenson Lomachenko. Bob thinks it's a pay-per-view. I don't know. It's a good fight. I'd want to watch it. Winner of that against Valdez, I don't know if it's a pay-per-view, but I'd want to watch it.

Those are two high-level fights that you could make it 130 pounds. If it is a paper-view fight, my advice would be not to pigeonhole it to ESPN-plus. Yeah. despite them insisting that that makes sense for the boxing business. It might make sense for ESPN and Disney to try to force people to subscribe to their bundles or whatever, you know, whatever their packages are. But you are cutting off a significant portion of the audience that either does not have ESPN Plus or is not willing to learn how to use it, even though it's not that complicated. People just are set in their ways.

And look, I'm not saying that, I don't want to go off on a tangent on this, Chris, but my point is, I'm not, I'm not, big, big tangent day. I mean, you know, these people are riling me up all over the place, I guess. But what I'll say is, Sean Porter and Terrence Crawford, I'm not saying it was a 500,000 buy fight, but it wasn't a hundred and 35,000 by fight either. And by restricting the people who would watch it, while, again, and I'm not blaming this on top rank necessarily, because they have to do what ESPN wants. because ESPN is funding their whole operation, so they have to do what they say. I just think it's short-sighted in terms of the health of the boxing business by restricting people from buying the fight

who ordinarily buy it by just going to their remote control and pushing one button and it's over with, right? I mean, look, some people, in addition to, you know, the logistics of it, but somebody's don't like using apps. It's as simple as that. Like, you know, we kind of discovered that DeZone did with Canello over the years, you know, a big Southern California fan base. And when they offered it on pay-per-view, they had like, what, 50,000 buys on paper view at a much higher price.

That's what I'm saying. That's Chris, that's what I'm saying. I mean, so don't, why cut off those people? Yeah. It doesn't make sense. You're going to make money off of it. So who doesn't want to make money, right? It makes no sense.

I agree. I agree. A couple things I want to hit you with before I let you go. Hall of Fame, class of 2022 announced this week the three boxers in the modern category, Roy Jones, James Tony, and Miguel Cotto. How do you feel about those three? I mean, all first ballot guys, they should have been, in my opinion. I understand they're only allowed to vote for a certain amount each year.

But yeah, Roy Jones obviously, you know, pound for pound king for a very long time. Miguel Cotto fought everybody and won world titles in multiple divisions, you know, even fought technically at middleweight where he didn't really belong, always made for exciting fights. James Tony, of course, you know, lost to Roy. Jones and that, you know, that fight that everyone wanted to see back in 1994. And then rejuvenated himself as a cruiser weight and then as a heavyweight, of course, has the, the blemish on his record that he popped positive for a PED. What do you think about that, Keith, as a voter?

And I've had to think about it, too, over the years. Because in baseball, the writers that vote for the Baseball Hall of Fame have largely made it clear that they're not voting for key members of the steroid era. I believe this is the last year that Roger Clemens can be on the ballot or will be on the ballot. I think Barry Bonds, maybe the same thing. Those guys that without those blemishes, first ballot Hall of Famers, great baseball players. But it seems unlikely that any of them are going to get in.

How do you approach that as you're making your decision on who to vote for for the Boxing Hall of Fame? you know, it's a tricky, tricky deal, Chris, in that, you know, boxing, as we well know, and people say this all the time, you know, people's lives are at stake here. This is not a matter of, like, you know, hitting 755 home runs or whatever, right? I mean, this is people's lives are at stake. And when you cheat, I think it should be held against you. And I, and I've said this on your podcast many times. Now, people defend Canello and all that. I mean, but the bottom line is he, he tested positive for a PED twice before his second fighting against. against Kennedy Golovkin.

I don't overlook that, I guess is what I'm saying. And Canelo Alvarez, obviously, is a Hall of Fame fighter. But to go back to Floyd Mayweather for a second, one of the things that he brought up last week was that, you know, he said, I'm not accusing him of being on steroids every fight, but it certainly casts doubt on what he's done because, you know, there are ways around the tests and everything. And I just think of a guy test positive one time.

I mean, I think you would have to be suspicious of him for either before or after, whether he was on some sort of PEDs and had the wherewithal to beat the test at a certain point. So it's a tricky, you know, it's a tough one, Chris, because again, this is people's lives at stake. You know, like Jarrell Miller, in my opinion, should not box again. Yeah. He's been caught so many times and he clearly has no regard for the health of the people who are risking their lives by entering the ring with him. So it's a tough thing. This is where Tony kind of threw me a little bit. Like, I think you can be subjective with some guys.

Like the baseball guys, like, one of the things they're accused of is basically doing this throughout their careers. Like, you know, taking stuff forever. Tony tested positive twice for, what I recall, pretty real substances. Like, these are not, like, these are steroids that he was testing positive for. And I guess the argument for Tony was that he tested positive at the end of his career. and he'd already have a Hall of Fame career prior to that, but that assumes that he wasn't doing anything before, which to me is a leap of faith.

So he's the one that I don't know about. I don't know. I didn't vote this year because I'm an idiot and I forget to pay my dues all the time for the B.B.A. But get your $40, didn't you? I did, actually. Jake Donovan, shout out. He knows. I dropped it in a couple weeks ago.

I don't know that I would have voted for Tony. That's the one guy. You know, I understand arguments for the two serious positive tests that would have, and no, look, I saw, I saw some people like Dan Rayfield wrote this. He wrote like he, he kept him off the ballot one year for that. Like, okay, so just like a one year punishment for that? Is that? Yeah.

I mean, look, people are, if you've earned your right to vote, you can do with it what you want. Yeah. Who am I to tell you what to do and what not to do? But it's a, it's definitely a deterrent. me. There isn't uniformity, Keith, because like, again, in baseball, the vast majority of the writers have decided that they're not going to fight these guys in. They've almost, I don't want to say colluded on this, but they've reached a collective decision that these guys are not going to get it.

I don't think that's the case amongst the boxing writers and the boxing owners. It's very, it's very subjective. All right. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say that the danger, the inherent danger of the sport, I think, is what makes this even more important as the, the boxing hall of Fame is nowhere near as prestigious and longstanding as the baseball Hall of Fame, obviously. But yeah, I mean, the fact that people's lives are at stake is a big, big, big factor here. Yeah, the Boxing Hall of Fame also insists on inducting three fighters every single year, when sometimes there aren't three fighters to induct, and sometimes there are more than three fighters to induct.

That's another conversation for another day. Finally, Deonti Wilder went on Kevin Hart's show recently. One of the things he said, and I'm paraphrasing here, was that he hasn't really. decided what the next step of his career is going to be if there is a next step in his career. We know Shelley Finkel, the manager for Wilder, has suggested he'll be back in the first half of 2022. But listening and reading Wilder's comments, I'm not convinced of that just yet. Now, I do think I've got to give Wilder more time, you know, to kind of let that loss sink in, relax, spend time with his family, all those things. But he is, what, 36, 37 years old.

it's tough to kind of rebuild Keith at that age. So hearing Wilder say that, it may be wonder, have we seen the last of Deontay Wilder? I don't think we have, Chris, and he has a lot of children and he has a lot of people to support and everything. So I think we'll try to see him, you know, try to get back into like a big money fight. But the one thing that's going to be shocking to him is that he's not, you know, he was violently knocked out by Tyson Fury in their third fight. And he's going to have to accept lesser money to come back. back and fight. Significantly lesser money.

Right. Yeah. And it's a tough financial position for Al Heyman to be in because I think you have to put Deonté Wilder on pay-per-view to satisfy whatever his purse demands, whatever he eventually agrees to fight for. It's still going to be a pay-per-view fight. And I think PBC has shown us that they're willing to slap anything up on pay-per-view here with Charles Martin and Luis Ortiz.

But I think we'll see. Not excited for that. You're not giddy for that. Not so much. I don't have a problem with the fight. I mean, because Charles Martin can punch. I know people like to crap on Charles Martin because of what happened with the Anthony Joshua fight and everything, but he can crack, though.

And he's won a couple of fights now. So it's, you know, yeah, he's fine. Luis Ortiz may or may not be 70 years old. Who really knows? For $40, you can find out. $40 you can find out. Yeah, but I do think that Deonté Wilder is going to fight again because I've also heard, you know, before he said this on Kevin Hart's podcast, which has been kind of all over the place

now since yesterday. I had heard behind the scenes that he was pushing to come back sooner than later because he really wanted to get back in there. So he's saying different things. And, you know, it's not going to sit well with him either, Chris, having that be the lasting impression of his career. Now, it doesn't end well for most fighters, but a guy who prided himself on viciously knocking out everyone and had unfortunately said many times that he wanted to kill someone in the ring, which is really a disgusting thing to stay. But he's not going to be okay with that being the last moment of his career. Now, that might wind up being the last moment of his career again in another fight if he fights too long. But I think he's young enough.

He's 36. I think he's young enough to come back and try to rebuild himself a little bit here. And look, he doesn't have to rebuild himself all that much. He is Deonti way. He's one of the – he's still a devastating puncher. He's with a top-level heavyweight despite his style. So, yeah, I'm still interested in a Joshua fight down the line. Like, they're both vulnerable.

big hitters. Well, you know who's not interested in the Joshua fight? Anthony Joshua? Eddie Hearn. Eddie Hearn. Yeah. Well, we'll see. The time changes everything, Keith, as you know.

Yeah, that's true. You need money. Things happen. I agree. I think, I mean, we mentioned we kind of goofed on the Charles Martin and Luis Ortiz Ortiz fight. Let's say Charles Martin comes through that. Like, Charles Martin could be an opponent for Deonté Wilder.

I mean, it feels like a right comeback fight to me. Well, all joking aside. Chris, I do think that I don't, you know, it might not, it might not go that long. I'm actually interested in seeing that fight. It should, of course, I don't care if it's $4. It shouldn't be on pay-per-view. But it's a fun fight. And, you know, I think it's interesting.

Yeah, it's fine. If Charles Martin wins, bring me Charles Martin, Deonté Wilder in the first quarter, whenever Charles can come back of next year. If Deonté wins that, he's right back in the mix. I mean, one, one big win can put him in the mix. Although I don't know, what does the mix mean? Like, I don't know what that means right now, because Joshua Usick, then Fury Usick,

2022 is not going to be the year where Deonti gets that big fight he's looking for. I don't know what the big fight is for him in the second half of next year. Maybe he winds up fighting, you know, just let's say he fought Charles Martin or, but I could see him fighting Andy Ruiz as well. Yeah, yeah.

Those are not just big pay-per-view type fights. Right, but they will be on pay-per-view for sure. Yes, of course. Why would put everything on pay-per-view? Let's put this podcast on pay-per-view. No, nobody will listen to that. That's for sure. Keith, good stuff, man.

We'll charge four cents for it. Four cents. Four cents. That might be a little bit steep as well. Good tangents today, Keith. I appreciated it. It was therapeutic for me, Chris. I've been on the road a very long time.

The last couple months, I'm old and cranky, so I got some of it out of my system. I appreciate it. You got it, man. Talk to you next time. Stay here, man. Bye. When we come back, my conversation with Xander Zias.

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That's why they're America's number one sportsbook. Sign up with the promo code boxing to bet risk-free up to $1,000 on Fandul's sportsbook. Download Fandle today. That's promo code boxing. All right, Zander Zias is here. He's a junior middleweight prospect on Saturday. He will attempt to go 6 and 0 in 2021, 12 and O overall when he makes his MSG debut on the undercard of Vasily Lomachenko's lightweight fight against Richard Comey. We were talking just before we started, Xander, about you're, I think you're getting the prime real estate.

Like, you're getting the slot that comes on right after the Heisman ceremony, which is when everybody's watching. Everybody wants to see who wins the Heisman. and that is on ESPN. It immediately switches to top rank boxing, and they're going to see you. Last year, Edgar Belanga made good use of that. It was kind of a launching pad for him. Do you kind of see it in a similar way for you?

Man, I'm just excited. I'm excited to be here. If that's the case, if I'm the fight right after the Heisman trophy, I will put on a show. I won't make everybody happy, you know, that is watching. And I'll make sure I get that big. during six fights in 2021 that's uh that's unusual we are kind of still in a pandemic and you're out there for the sixth time yeah you know it's something that i you know i set up myself to do at

the beginning of 2021 we you know i set down with my team and and we wanted this we wanted to to have a great year and finish you know finish the year being the prospect of the year and i think come saturday night after after i win i will i will i will win that award too. How important is that award to you? Man, it means everything. You know, it sets, it sets me up to, you know, great things, you know, all the great fighters at one point, they were the prosper of the year, at least most of them.

And that just, you know, elevates me to a new level, you know, that fighting more, better opposition, you know, getting into that, that contended level at 154, that's, you know, that's the next step and I'm looking forward to it. This has been a year of upsets in boxing. And there have even been a number of prospects that have been knocked off both this year in the last couple of years. When you see a prospect lose or an upset happen, how do you react to that? Do you think about in the context of your own career?

Is that focus you maybe even more? Oh, yes, 100%. You know, it lets me know that anybody is invincible. Anybody can be beat if you don't train hard, if you don't focus, if you overlook somebody, you know, they can beat you. You know, they're in there with you doing the same thing as you as you are. You know, they just want to win. They want to have that next opportunity.

So seeing somebody that is supposed to be the next thing getting knocked off, he absolutely, you know, gets me focus on the goal. You were born in Puerto Rico. Your countryman, Miguel Cotto, just this week, made it into the International Boxing Hall of Fame. What did Cotto mean to you? Man, he was an inspiration, not just to me, but to young fighters in Puerto Rico coming up.

You know, his house was here at MSG, and I'm looking forward to be, you know, that next Puerto Rican star to haul an NACA. for Madison Square Garden. I mean, it will mean a lot to me, and I'm just focused. I'm focused to, you know, take on it and be that next, that next world champion for Puerto Rico. Yeah, I know kind of the Mexican holidays are big for guys like Canelo and some of the other great Mexican stars, but that Puerto Rican Day Parade weekend, whatever it is in New York,

that's such a massive day for boxing. Koto fought on that date a number of times. And those scenes, I'm sure you remember them. They were wild at the garden. They were. They were wild. And I'm looking forward to, you know, bring that back, you know, bring that, that excitement back to New York, that assignment back to the island of Puerto Rico.

And just, you know, do great things here. Do great things in my career and do great things here in New York. What do you remember about Koto's career? Kind of growing up, young fighter, he's in his prime. What do you remember about it? man he when he fought sat judah that was a great fight shame mosley um margarito the margarito the revenge how old were you when he stopped judah i was i don't think i don't think i even remember the fight but i still watch it to this day i still watch i still go back and watch it because

you know that was that was that was that was a good step up for for for miguel coto in his career and being able to do what he did to stop judo was which is amazing yeah that was at 140 pounds yes as he was making his way up the ranks you know that's one thing about koto that i always respected he would always seek out the toughest opponent he would bounce between promotional outfits at times between networks at times and he wasn't interested in tune-ups he wanted real fights he wanted yeah he wanted the best and that's what i'm looking forward to do too you know i want to fight the best that you know when it's the right time and prove myself and prove the world that I belong in here.

When you look at a guy like Cotto in your own career, like do you take things of what he does when you were kind of watching him growing up? Like do you incorporate any of his style into yours? Man, you know, you always look at fighters coming up and you want to be like them. You want to incorporate things like they did. But sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Yes, I try to, you know, work on something.

that he used to do like the left hook to the body. And for now, you know, throughout my career, my 12, you know, 11, 5, 10, it's been working. So I'm going to continue to use it. But there's some other things that, you know, they don't work out. And you just got to, you know, fix them or try to, you know, keep working on them. Yeah. I think your left took to the body, took the life out of Dan Carpensy in your last fight. You hit him with one.

Yes, yes. I think that was that was a key to victory in my last fight. My team were telling me keep digging to the body, double up to the body. And, you know, we all know what happened when, you know, after that. You know, some of the best rivalry fights in boxing have been Puerto Rico versus Mexico. I was just working a fight recently with Gabe Rosado against Jaime Mungia. Yeah. There's just like a natural, I don't know if it's bad blood, animosity, whatever it is.

Like whenever a Puerto Rican fighter and a Mexican fighter get together, it usually is a great fight. As a Puerto Rican fighter, why is that? Why do you think that rivalry leads to such great action? Well, because Puerto Ricans are very proud of being Puerto Ricans and Mexicans are 100% proud of being Mexicans. So when that comes together, it's just two competitive countries just trying to put on a show and showcase who's the best.

I think that's what it comes all about. I don't feel like there's bad blood, you know. It's all off at the end of the day. But when it comes down in the ring, we got to show who's the best. So you started this year, I guess. What weight did you start this year at? I started my first fight this year was a 147. My first three fights this year was a 147.

And then the last part of 2021, the second half, was a 154. So was that just you kind of naturally filling out? Or was it something else? Yeah, it was it was absolutely. Absolutely that. You know, I'm 19. I'm still growing. My team knew that I wasn't going to campaign at 147. I wasn't going to win a wheelchair. I won 47. So why not let my body, why not allow my body to grow and keep, you know, keep getting better and keep getting bigger, you know, when I can take advantage of that. Take advantage of the youth. That's what they told me. Absolutely. I mean, hell, if you're 154 at age 19, you would think you're probably going to grow 160, maybe 168, as you can't. keep getting older. That's, you know, that's the goal.

I want to win a World Tattle at 154 and then go up from there, 160, 168, maybe 175. You know, you just want to, just want to be the best that I can be and achieve my full potential. How close do you think you are to being ready for that type of fight? I believe middle or end of 2023, I should be in that in that conversation of fighting for a world title.

Do you look around at the guys that are your age and start to look like, all right, that guy is going to be a rival of mine? Like the way that kind of Spence and Crawford are right now. Canelo Golofkin were for years in their weight class. Do you look around and say, all right, I'm starting to see who my rivals are? Oh, yes, 100%. You know, I'm a boxing. I'm a boxing fan.

I love watching boxing every weekend. We sit down and I'll sit down with my dad and we just, we just watch the fight from the beginning. to the end. And yes, you know, we, we have a couple people that we know or we might, you know, have for sure know that that we might fight them in the future and that it will be a great fight. But only, again, only the future will tell. I will stay focused. I would stay dedicated. So when that fight comes around, I'm ready to take on it. Who's that, who's the one guy that you can say, like, I guarantee down the line, we're going to have a couple of good fights. Man, there's, there's a lot of

guys. There's a lot of guys. At 154, you know, Joey Spencer's making a lot of noise. What do you think of Joey Spencer? He's kind of people have differing opinions on Joey Spencer. No, Joey Spencer is tricky. You know, he's a good boxer that now in his last couple fights he's been sitting, he's been sitting a lot of his punches. He's been, he's been throwing in combinations. His last fight, he fought my, my first opponent this year, James Martin. And it was a go fight. And I think in the future, if we continue our way up and we stay at 154, both of us, it could be a really exciting fight.

No question about that. That would be a fun between two good prospects in boxing. So as we said at the top, but probably a big exposure opportunity for you fighting as a potential opener early on on that card. Like as you, I mean, I'm guessing you're going to have a lot of adrenaline going through. you at being your first time fighting at MSG no matter what, but like, what are you going out there to do with that with that many eyeballs on you? Does that resonate with you? Do you start thinking about, all right, I can put on a show here? I'm focused. You know, I know I will put on a show. I'm, I want to, you know, put a statement out there and let everybody know that I'm the prospect

of the year and that I'm coming, you know, that I'm here to stay and that I will be at the top very, very soon. I was watching your last fight against Carpensee and it must be pretty cool for a young fighter to have Andre Ward commenting on your fights. I mean, Andre Ward, one of the all-time greats. Like, who fights around your weight, 168 for most of his career?

Went up to 175 late, but that must be fun to have a guy on that level kind of praising you. It's cooler when they, when after the fight, they, you know, him and Tim Bradley send you a message, you know, to future out of famous, send you a message and

and let you know, hey, you did a great job, kid. You got to work on this. You got to work on that. But everything else looked perfect. Everything else looked sharp. I think that's even cooler than them commentating. Has Cotto ever reached out, do you? Yes, I just texted him.

I just texted him today. I found out that, you know, he was an Al-of-Famer. So I just texted him. He responded right away. So, I mean, I started having a good relationship with him back in September. We exchanged his number. He was out there in my fight in Arizona. So, you know, since then, he's been in, you know, he's known who I am.

So it just makes me proud. It makes me proud to have such a big name in my contact list. All right. Last question for you. Who is, in your mind, the greatest Puerto Rican fighter of all time? Man, I think Miguel Koto. I mean, that's who I grew up watching. that was the hero in, you know, of my era.

So I will have to pick him. I know a lot of people is going to say Tito Trinidad and Macho Camacho, but I'll say Cotto just because of, you know, of who he was when I was growing up. You really can't go wrong with any of those guys, though. You're right. All kind of around that same era, too, doing great things. Well, Zander, looking forward to seeing your fight. Like I said, a lot of people are going to be watching.

I'll be watching for sure. And good luck to you, man. Hope for the best in 2021 and beyond. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's always a pleasure. When we come back, Bantamweight champion, Nonito Donair. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim?

Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack.

So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch.

Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person.

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and we're here to change that. I'm April Dignuity host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure.

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If I could be you. And you could be me for just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside. Each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. I'm all in my shoes. We've all felt left out.

And for some, that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us.org. Brought to you by the ad council. All right, Nonito Donair is the WBC's bantam weight champion. On Saturday, you will defend that title against Raymar Gabayo. That's a fight you could watch on Showtime. And Donito joins me here on the show.

So 39 years old, Nonito. So when you were in your 20s, did you ever think you would fight until nearly 40? Nope. You know, I'm just the kind of guy who just go day by day, kind of, you know, live in the present kind of mentality, you know, and just kind of go fight per fight. You know, I've never really thought about even fighting at this age, you know, and still enjoy it. How different do you feel at 39 compared to 29? I think that the difference is I'm understanding my body more at 39 and I'm understanding myself and being able to utilize all the experiences that that that I garnered throughout the years.

I think that's the biggest key for me is accepting what my body is capable of and utilizing the experience that I've accumulated throughout the years. Talk to me a little bit more about that. What does that mean? At what point in your career did you kind of make adjustments that helped you get to where you are now? Well, I think the funny thing is I just had done it recently after the Inouye fight, you know,

because after you saw the ups and downs in many years losing and winning, losing and winning, it was just more of like I wasn't thinking. You know, I was just going out there to fight, you know, and just trying to land big shots. This time, you know, it was very strategic, like how I used to be back in the days, you know. And I think that's the biggest difference now is that I'm utilizing what I'm good at, which is strategizing. Yeah, you mentioned the in-of-way fight. And in a way, even though you didn't win it, I think that could have been a decent way to end your career.

Like you went up against the toughest guy in the division. You went the distance with him. You gave him hell. You heard him during that fight. You proved yourself once again at that stage of your career. What was your thought process after the in-of-way fight, but what you were going to do next? I said, I got to go back to drawing board.

I don't like being second. And that will never be second. So retirement never crossed your mind. No. I just, my first thing that I went after a week, after, you know, we had about a week or two of weekends. after the fight and I went right back to the gym. I said that you know what I got something that I need to to do to create to utilize and get used to again the habits and I went back to that gym and

it showed in the the fight with the Bali. Yeah it's funny you at bantam weight you're great like you're an all-time great at that weight class you lost what once very early in your career in your second pro fight and you lost to a pound for pound guy. And in a way, as we said, you went the distance with him. That was a tough fight. It just feels like that's the perfect weight class for you. The only time you've had other losses have been when you decided to move up and wait. Yes.

I mean, you know, it was just more of trying to find a purpose. After 2012 and winning the fighter of the year, it was just more of like finding a purpose and just moving up and weight, just moving up and wait and going for the more lucrative fight, you know, rather than just being stable to where I'm at. But I mean, I don't, you know, I don't take anything back. You know, I've learned from a lot of those fights. And here I am making that decision to go back down and, and which is the right time for me. Was that what it was? Because I remember talking to you after that 2012 campaign where you were fighter of the year. You had a tremendous year. Were you just needing different challenges back then?

I think it was just more of like I've answered the question that I need to answer which why I was boxing and it came to a point where I accomplished my purpose in the ring you know and I want to keep fighting the best out there or keep being challenged so that I can train harder you know part of it was like that. Do you have so you don't take any of it back but do you have any regrets about that period where you were moving up and up and wait? Um, no, no, you know, I, I, I was able to, uh, experience that things that I've done, you know, and here I am, uh, even stronger and understanding and more confident in this, in this, uh, in this division, because I've fought the best out there and I've fought, uh, the biggest guys out there, you know, um, even though I was a smaller guy, but now that I'm the bigger guy, you know, because of the fact that I've experienced those. I won't ever take anything back. How tough was it, or maybe it wasn't tough, but going from fighting Frampton at 126 to dropping down to 118 for the start of the Super Series against Ryan Burnett.

I mean, how tough was that, what, seven months to get in a healthy way to 118? I was never really, you know, I was never really the guy who gained so much weight, you know, ever since I got to a point in my life, I just, I've had a lot of healthy lifestyle, you know. I live off eating properly. I live off in the gym most of the time. And so the weight wasn't difficult to make. I actually felt really good. The only thing was I needed to adjust was the way I fought, because I fought like I was a featherweight

rather than fighting the bannum weights, you know, and that's something that I've adjusted after, you know, after a few fights. What is the difference that you feel in the ring at, you know, 122, 126 versus what you are right? now at 118? I mean, there's just a lot of confidence, you know, because I know this is my weight class. I'm like everybody else, you know, I'm cutting weight as everybody else compared to 22s and 26. They were way bigger than I was, you know. At 26, I would weigh in at 126 and I would walk around

128, 130, you know, so, you know, and that's the same weight that I do from 118 as well. Sometimes I reach up to 1, you know, 128 or 130, you know, and I was fighting that way at featherweight. So to me, it was just the right choice at this time, especially that I'm, you know, I'm experienced enough. Look, all fighters struggle to make weights. The toughest thing fighters have to do besides actually getting in the ring and win a fight. But how are you at 39 at making 118? I'm actually, you know, it's the funny thing, because I believe that I don't know what it is about me or my body. I'm just blessed with it, but it's been very easy for me to do it.

You know, and I think I do, I do a lot, it's easy for me to cut weight because I do a lot of practices like meditation and fasting with meditation. So fasting to me, it's like a normal day to me. So I don't have to worry about the weight. I can eat for a couple of days, a few days, maybe a week, and I'm fine. You know, so, you know, so that's just what I, you know, from all the experience that I went and I wouldn't be able to be the person that I am gaining experience in meditation and fast. and getting myself in a spiritual realm without the defeat that I have. And now making the weight

is such a simple thing for me. I mean, I could go down to 115 if I want to, you know, and still feel really strong. Wait, wait, don't throw that into the universe. That's a good weight class, Donito. You tell them you could make 115? Yes, sir. I mean, when I fought in Neway,

I was actually 116, so I had to drink a couple more water, you know, a few water to get down to, to get up to 1.5. almost just a little bit below 118. So 116, you know, it's right around the corner of 115. So, I mean, like, you know, you got a fight between Chocolatito and Estrada coming up. That's a high-profile fight. Are you telling me that you could be in the mix to fight the winner of that?

Physically, you could do that? I would love to. I would love to. I'm putting myself out there and that mix with Chocolatito and Estrada. That would be wild because you don't see guys as they get, look, guys get older, as you well know. they gain weight. Naturally, they progress. It happens. Very few. I think, you know, Jamel Herring is an example of a guy that had success coming down from 135 to 130, but nobody like you at your age and your weight to make 115 for a fight against the winner

of Chocolatito Estrada, that would be, I mean, you've had big fights in your career. That would have to be one of the biggest. That would be great. I'm all for it, man. I am all for it. Have you discussed that with anybody? With my wife, you know, and she's okay with it. you know, talk about it here and there and even talk about it with Richard. You know, if all the fight that didn't happen here, we were kind of reaching out to them, you know, to make the fight happen. But, you know, again, you know, Richard's going to do his thing,

and I'm just going to advise what I want. And if that's possible, we'll make it happen. I think Richard and Eddie Hearn, for that matter, probably just had big smiles on their faces hearing that possibility. Everybody, everybody wins in a potential fight like that. You said at the top of this interview that when you lost in a way, you didn't want to go out at second place. You didn't like being in second place. You won your last fight against Dubai. You didn't.

You were in first place. You can make the argument you're right there at or near the top of this weight class. What kept you going after that? What keeps you going now? Well, I think that there's one person that's on the first place right now. You know, and that's what I look at is the division, and that's in new way. and that's the guy I need to be first place. You know, I just can't be anybody else.

You know, I think that Inouye is the best in this division right now, but I want to prove that wrong and be the best in that division in this division. And that's a goal that I seek, and this is why the youth in me is flowing. What could you do differently in a rematch with Inouye that would lead you to a win? I think the only thing that I lacked in that fight was, strategy. I just came in there to fight. You know, I just came in there to fight to go out there

without any strategy, without any counters, you know. A lot of it was just, if I did counter, it was all from muscle memory, you know, but now I know exactly how things are going to be. I know exactly what I need to do, and that is to strategize and do the same thing, but with strategy. So you've got to fight with Gabayo up first. Are you, in your mind, are you kind of fight to fight or do you like say, look, I'm going to go till I'm 40? 41, 42. There's another Filipino that went to his 40s as well. Maybe Bakkeow, a lot of success in his early 40s.

What's your mindset about the future? I'm a fight-per-fight basis, you know, because sometimes maybe someday I might wake up and not feel like going to the gym anymore, you know. And I don't want to force my body to fight if I feel that I just don't want to be here. You know, I'm grateful that I wake up and I'm like, I'm gung-ho about it.

I'm ready to go. I'm all up for it, you know. So I think the biggest thing for me is I'm ready to go and I'm excited. What does your wife say about your future? She's always been very supportive of me. And she kicks my butt in the gym, you know, being my trainer at the same time, being my strength trainer. I mean, we know all the people that work with her. She knows how tough she is, you know.

And she's all for it. If I am going to go for it, she's going to support me, but I have to give it 100%. So your wife is, your wife, Rachel, is your full-time strength trainer? Yes, full-time strength trainer and also the head coach in, you know, in the corner. So how does that work? We've talked a lot in recent weeks about fathers and sons, and that's difficult as it is. How about husbands and wives? You know, it's funny to me because the thing is what she tells me, I understand.

It's like, it's like I have to listen, you know? So it's difficult to it. It's just you just get it because you have so much conversation when it comes down to it. You know, it's not like you only talk about it in the gym. We're talking about it in the middle of the night. At sometimes at 2 o'clock, we're talking about it, how to counter, how to do this. I mean, like 2 o'clock in the damn morning, you know. So I think that when she speaks to me, I already understand what she needs me to do

and what I need her to tell me to do, you know. So she'll wake you up in the middle of the night, be like, listen, I think you're not throwing the counter left as often as you should. Sometimes, sometimes before we go to bed, you know, sometimes when we go to bed, it's just like, I got an idea. And then it's just like, okay. And so we're talking about it. Next thing, you know, it's 2 o'clock in the morning because I'm like, we're just talking about it. But that's the greatest thing. And I think the biggest advantage for me is because at this time, at this experience that I have, you tend to forget, you know, what you hear.

and you just kind of go on the other year. But because she's always there, our conversation is memorized and her voice because of the constant conversation that what she needs me to do is just, it's easy to understand. Is there a secret to making it work? Because I would guess it doesn't work for a lot of people or it wouldn't work for a lot of people. Trust. Trust.

Mainly you have to respect her. because there's a lot of times that women are not respected because they're women, right? And this is a man's sport, supposedly, right? So things like that. And for a very long time, she'd work with me, but I would never listen because I had that mentality until recently, you know, during the pandemic when I got the COVID and the fight didn't happen, we shut down everybody. And it was me and her training. And I love what she had to say. She was very smart about fighting, you know.

And so, and it showed in the Obadi fight, you know, and this time around as well, you know, just, it's just an incredible tandem. You know, you're right about what you said there. Boxing in general, I don't say mistreats women, but doesn't care as much about women as it probably should. Maybe it's because they're not the target demographic for television, but I know you, one of the reasons the Casamara fight didn't happen in the summers, you were upset about some of the things that were being said towards your wife.

I mean, you see in boxing, there are some bad things happening to women by boxers in a way. It's not a women-friendly sport at this point, is it? Well, I think it's because of what has transpired throughout the years. And when strong women comes out, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on?

And for me as well, you know, I stand for what I believe, you know, and I'm always going to protect my wife. It's always protecting me throughout the years, you know, and I stand by it. that. But yeah, women in boxing, you know, you just don't see enough unless they're fighters, you know, then you'll see that and you give that respect because they fight. But then you don't give enough respect for the smarts that they have being in a corner, you know, because of the

fact that there was really no women, you know, who, uh, who had that, that success, you know, or even that limelight like she does. Yeah. Well, you and, you and Rachel have certainly had a lot of success in your career and that career continues on on Saturday. Donair, Gabayo, on showtime. Good luck, man. And hell, I'm, if you can make 115, sign me up for Donair versus the winner of Chocolate Tito Estrada. I will be there front center to watch that one. And by the way, I am bringing the sports world with, with the blockchain. So that's something that you guys got to look forward to. It's going to be incredible, man. I think that if they're bringing in YouTube, I'm bringing in blockchain. Now we're talking. Now we're talking about that.

No, Nino, good luck, man, and I'll talk to you soon. Thank you, sir. You guys have a good one. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Keith Ideck, Xander Zias, and Nonito Donair for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you can download podcasts. And we'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make. you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations. that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional

who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast.

Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun-tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense

of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.