The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Benavidez's Path to Canelo

Episode Date: March 28, 2024

Joining Mannix this week is veteran boxing journalist Lance Pugmire. Mannix and Pugmire discuss a potential new pathway for David Benavidez to get a crack at Canelo Alvarez, a 50-50 cruiserweight title fight between Gilberto Ramirez and Arsen Goulamirian, a competitive junior middleweight matchup between Tim Tszyu and Sebastian Fundora, what could be next for Amazon in boxing and more. Later, Tim Tszyu joins the show to talk Keith Thurman's withdrawal, why he insisted the show go on, preparing for Fundora, a future matchup with Bud Crawford, more. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits,

my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

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Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The volume. The thrill and excitement of Marchmania is here, and Draft King Sportsbook, one of America's top-rated sportsbook apps, is giving new customers a shot to turn five bucks into $150 instantly in bonus bets with any college basketball bet.

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ferocious finisher. Watch this. Hosted by S.I's Chris Manix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix.

And we are back. Boxing with Chris Mannix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network. I want to welcome in all the subscribers that are listening on the podcast feed. If you are not a subscriber, what are you waiting for? Get over to that feed, hit that subscribe button, the follow button. Make sure you don't miss an episode every week. We've got a great show for you this week. Lance Pugmire is in.

Longtime boxing journalist, now working over at Boxing Scene.com. Busy week in the world of, boxing. We have three cards on three different platforms this weekend. I will be in Los Angeles where Zerdo Ramirez will attempt to become a two-division world champion when he takes on longtime Cruiserweight title holder Arsson Gullimarian. I think that is a fascinating fight on paper. Zerto is the more accomplished guy, the more active guy. But Gullimarian has a great trainer behind him in April Sanchez and he hits like a mule. So it's a really intriguing fight to me. Lance, he will be in Las Vegas for the premiere of PBC on Amazon Prime pay-per-view.

Obviously, some changes to that show recently. Keith Thurman is out. Sebastian Fendora is in. And I think that makes that card a lot more competitive. You guys know my thoughts on Tim Zhu and Keith Thurman. Didn't like it. Not one bit. I do like Zhu against Fondora.

We'll get Lance's thoughts on that, plus some insight into what we can expect on Amazon over the rest of the year. A little bit later, Tim Zhu drops by. We get into the change in opponent, how he is preparing for the chatter about Zhu and Terrence Crawford happening next if he has any interest in facing Thurman down the road and so much more. So stick around for that as well. As always, subscribe, rate, review the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. The best thing you can do to support the pod, write a quick review, leave a rating, preferably a five-star rating.

It's the best way to make sure we keep doing the show week after week. All right, when we come back, I will be joined by Lance Bugmire. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days,

I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, This is right where you need to be.

Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim?

Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack.

So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, Lance Pugmire is back. Boxing Scene.com, pay-per-view.com. And, Lance, we are speaking at the dawn of what is going to be a very busy week in boxing. You have a show on Friday on ESPN. That's headlined by Oscar Valdez against Liam Wilson. On Saturday in Los Angeles, I will be there for the Gilberto Ramirez Arsang Gullamarian Cruiserweight title fight. And also on Saturday in Vegas, you will be at the Tim Zoo Sebastian Fondora headline fight.

That will be the debut of PBC on Amazon Prime pay-per-view. So we've got a lot to get into. as far as this week goes. But I do want to begin this conversation with some of the news of the week. And I want to start with some of the news that came out of Saudi Arabia this week, specifically as it comes or as it pertains to David Benavides' place in the light heavyweight division. Saudi officials have floated this idea that the winner of Dmitri Bevel against Archer-Betterbe. which is set to take place on June 1st, part of a massive card over in Saudi Arabia.

The winner of that fight could face David Benavides. Now, up to this point, I have been under the impression that this could be a two-fight arrangement between Bevel and Better Beav. But what Turkey Al-Asheek wants, Turkey Al-Sheek gets. And as of right now, it seems like he wants the winner of Bevel against Betterbiev to take on David Benevides. This was welcomed news by people close to David Benavides. But what do you think of it? What do you make of the chances we get Benavides against the winner of Beville and Better B'Eyev? Well, I mean, it's definitely a possibility, as you said. I mean, money can make a lot of people do anything they want, right?

So, but from that standpoint, I mean, there's two things going on. I think that there are also as a segment of Benevita's camp that would love for him to stay in the U.S. and fight Canelo Alvarez at Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas. It makes a lot of sense. You know, they say the money can be there in regards to you charge $100 per pay-per-view. If you can get $1.6 million buys, it's a big ass, but it could happen. And then you... Is that fantasy land?

What fantasy land is that $100 a pop and $1.6 million pay-per-view buys? Who is living in that reality? And then the other part of it is that, you know, if they could, you know, get an average price of $600 per ticket with 70,000 people in the stadium, again, this is what they are floating. Then, you know, the money could be there for Canello because Cognolo has thrown out this astronomical figure of 150 million minimum to fight Benavides. Now, look, if that cannot happen and, you know, odds are it will not, then yes, this makes all the sense in the world for David Benavides, right? Because look, this is a guy who's naturally big. He's already fighting at light heavyweight. He's going to have a June 15th fight underneath Gervante Davis on PBC on Amazon Prime video. And it sets him up perfectly timewise to take this bout. And not only that, I mean, we, we believe that David Benavitas is a big enough guy to ultimately one day move up to heavyweight and be not you know we know that Andy Ruiz Jr. beat him to become the first Mexican-American heavyway champion of all time but David Benavitas is a guy who could have staying power in that

spot and so this is a you know this is a promising turn of events for David I believe don't take the you know stop chasing the Canelo money and go after your own start for the next decade. Okay, just a couple things. One, there is no scenario where David Benavides can make more money fighting Canelo Alvarez in the U.S. or fighting Canelo in the U.S. versus fighting the winner of Better B.F. Bevo over in Saudi Arabia. Those numbers are pure fiction.

Like, getting to 1.6 million pay-per-viewbys in today's landscape is almost, impossible, you know, whether it's because of piracy, lack of interest, whatever you want to say. It is extremely difficult to get to that number. Livegate, right? Like, Canelo Alvarez, a couple of years ago, put, what, 70 plus thousand into AT&T Stadium in Texas. That live gate was only $9 million. So the live gates at stadiums are not equivalent to live gates at smaller venues in Vegas or New York. They charge more for tickets.

It's a more welcoming experience for fans. Like you're not charging any real money for a seat up in the rafters at Allegiance Stadium. That's just not happening. So I hope you enjoyed your spin through the Samson-Lucowitz fever dream right there. But that is exactly what it is. It's a fever dream by Samson and company that they can somehow cobble together a deal that gets Canello to $150 million or even $100 million to make that fight happen. But I think for Benavides, you have got to embrace this opportunity if it comes along to fight the winner of Better Beav against Bevo.

Right now it looks like Benavides is going to fight in June at Light Heavyweight against Alexander Vostick, a former Light Heavyweight champion. If he comes through that fight and looks great in it, it's only going to increase the momentum for him to face the winner of Better Beav against Bevo, which will happen a couple of weeks earlier. And look, I don't know how much money the Saudis willing to put up. up. It's probably going to be $10, $15 million for Benavides to take that fight. And if Benavides can beat the winner of Betarbeev and Bevo, which is not impossible. Like, Benevides is younger. He's as big as these guys. It would be a competitive fight, no doubt about it. If he can win that fight, all of a sudden, Canello's on the table for May of 2025. It's going to happen. He will have completely boxed Canello win to the point where, whether it's in the U.S.,

or Saudi Arabia, somebody is going to put up massive dollars for Canelo Alvarez, David Benavides, because you may have at that time the undefeated, or the undisputed super middleweight champion versus who would be the undisputed light heavyweight champion. That sells itself, Lance. So to me, that is the path for David Benavides to pursue. Given everything that Canello has done up to this point, you believe he would make that turn and say, I'll take a fight in May, 2020.

1,000 percent because the money will be huge and the legacy would be huge. Look, I'm of the belief that assuming Canello gets through Jaime Mangia unscathed, we're probably going to see Canelo Edgar Berlanga in September. I think that's the path that he's on right now can be spun as Edgar Burlanga being mandatory for Canello, even though he probably isn't. I think that is the path of least resistance and most most men. money for Canelo. So if he walks through that and still has all four belts at 168 and Benavides has all four belts at 175, there is, I have very little doubt that Canello would pass on

that type of fight. 1.6 million buys? 1.6 million. When, like, at 100 bucks a pop, what the world are we living in? That somebody's paying 100 bucks a pop in the piracy era where I know way too many people that are watching boxing paper views and watching boxing streams on things called like meth streams and crack streams and things like that. Like there's no way that's going to happen. I will be there for that fight. I would buy that fight. But people like you and me, there's not 1.6 million of us, that's for sure.

They're going to get up there. So while I respect the people around David Benavides, I think they're living in an alternate reality there. So if I'm Benavides, take this fight at light heavy weight, look spectacular. against Alexander Vostick, which I think you can look spectacular there. When it's over, kind of glare at Eddie Rinozo in the corner, who is the trainer of Vostick, make a big spectacle of it, then take on the winner of Better Beav against Beaville, win that fight, and then if Conella doesn't fight you then, the gloves are off when it comes to Canello-Walfres.

Because then it's about money, then it's about legacy. There's no way you can turn to somebody else in May of 2025 and justify that type of fight. great point except for it i think i think the only other thing that i go back to chris is the idea that maybe he wins that super that light heavyweight championship and says like i'm just going to continue this path upward and onward to the heavyweight division can you see that happening uh not really because it sure looks like the heavyweight division is going to be tied up for a while right Like, whatever happens with Usik Fury, if Fury wins, most likely going to see AJ against Fury in August or September, maybe that's a two-fight deal.

Like, it just, if he had an easy path to fight like Alexander Usik for the undisputed heavyweight championship, maybe. But I'm not even sure there's more money in an Usik fight as undisputed light heavyweight versus undisputed heavyweight. I'm not sure there's more money in that than there would be in a Canelo fight. I just think a Canello fight because it's been building for the last couple of years. And by the way, this is what happens in boxing. Like, did we forget the Floyd Mayweather era where Floyd just put off big fights and put

off big fights and put off big fights? And to his credit, it all kind of worked out. Fought Manny Packy out on the biggest fight of all time. So Cinello was just taking a page out of Floyd's playbook saying, you know what, I'll fight this guy, but give me $150 million. Or even if it doesn't get to that number. You build it and you build it and you build it. And Canelo's no fool.

He knows that this year for him, you know, Mungia is going to be, I think, a tough fight as long as it lasts. But I think you and I both agree, Mungia is probably going to get blasted out of there at some point. Berlanga has not shown anything to make you believe he's on that level of Canelo Alvarez. So Canello can look at this year and say, I'm going to get through it. I'm going to have all my belts. I'm going to be the undisputed champion at 168. And then let's see what the landscape looks like in 2025. Let's see how much bigger David Benavides has become, whether it's, you know, through the light heavyweight championship or something else.

This is not unfamiliar territory, right? Like this is stuff we have seen over and over and over again in boxing. Most recently, it happened with Floyd. Now it's happening with Canelo. Great point. And, you know, the other thing that's in play is that they're kicking around the idea of a September commercial card at Wembley. stadium to really hype that December fight that very well could be Benavides versus the Bevall better be a winner.

Yeah. So, yeah, that's the path I would choose if I was, if I was David Benavides. Put Canella on the shelf for right now. Focus on light, heavy weight. Get through that and then, and then we'll see what happens there. All right. Let's talk about the fight this weekend in L.A. first. Zirno Ramirez moving up in wait to cruiserweight.

He moved up to cruiserweight for his last fight, but he was against the light heavyweight in Joe Smith, so not a full-fledged cruiserweight fight. This time he's going up against a long-standing cruiserweight champion, Arsangula Marion, trained by the great Abel Sanchez, best known for his work with Gannadi Gailofkin. This is an interesting fight to me, because on paper, I think Zerto has, a lot of advantages. He's the more active fighter in the ring. He's been the more active fighter overall. Gullimarian has not fought since, like, 2022. End of 2022 was his last fight. So you can see how Zerto could have a pathway to a wide decision win. But Gullimarian can crack. And even though

Zerdos got a really good chin or shown a good chin at super middleweight and light heavyweight, we don't know what it's going to look like against a real cruiserweight puncher, especially a puncher who's got a good trainer behind him and Abel Sanchez. It's going to have them prepared for this type of fight. So how do you see this matchup on Saturday between Zerto and Gullimarian? Look, a couple things come to mind with this fight. I think that in talking to some boxing people, they are very high on what Zerdo Ramirez as a cruiserweight champion will bring to this sport.

It really livens up a division that has been really dormant since Alexander Usik stood as undisputed champion. So that's one thing. But Goulomarian, like you said, working with Abel Sanchez, Abel Sanchez says, look, my guy trains all the time with heavyweights. He is ready for this fight. And this is, you know, he's basically fighting. You can make the case a glorified light heavyweight. And so as this fight goes on, it's going to be a pounding. where Zerto is not going to be able to stand up to a guy that, like you said, is trained by Abel Sanchez.

And we know the way that Abel works. Abel is very thoughtful, very deliberate. And he's very confident about his guy as he heads into this bow. Abel really wants this to be a showcase that will allow his guy to really set himself up for, you know, the rest of his career, however many years he has, which is, you know, pretty minimal. So to me, that's what's going on. I think that Gullimarian is going to win this fight, win it probably by 8th, 9th round, and then just kind of stamp himself as the best cruiserweight in the world with Abel Sanchez. And where he goes from here will be, you know, it's going to have to be more compelling than what Zerto Ramirez will be left to do.

Wow. So you're taking Gullamarian to win this fight. I would pump the brakes on best cruiserweight in the world because there's a guy named Jayaataya who is really freaking good. So I think that jury will still be out even if Gullimarian comes through Zerto. My concern with Gullimarian is that he's not very active in the ring, right? He's not a volume puncher. Zerto is a volume puncher. And I think Zirto has looked really good of late since he added Malik Scott to that team working with Julian Chua in that Brickhouse boxing gym.

So I think he's continued to evolve as a fighter. What I saw against Joe Smith was a guy that was a lot more light on his feet than I've seen him in previous fights, a lot more comfortable boxing and moving than I've seen him in previous fights. He's going to have to be all that and more in this fight because Gullamarian, if he gets a hold of him, it could be lights out because Gullamarian does have really heavy hands in this weight class. But I don't know, man. Like maybe I have more of a belief in Zerto's chin than you do because while I can certainly see a knockout win for Gullimarian, I can also see like a 118, 110 type of fight for Zerto because he is, if this goes to the scorecards, Lance,

he's going to be way up. He just is. I don't see a scenario where Gullimarian outboxes him. I do see a scenario where Gullimarian just overwhelms him, lands some bombs, gets him out of there. But as far as boxers go, I favor Zerdo in this fight. Yeah, I mean, it's a great point that, you know, a veteran. veteran guy, how much can he truly adapt and change and improve later on in his career? But I know Abel has spent some significant time with him and is very confident. Abel's not really one to blow smoke. So it's going to be a fascinating evening, Chris, for you out in L.A. for sure. Yeah. And I'm looking at the resume of Gullimarian. Again, has not fought since November of

2019, beat Alexei Agaroff on that night. I want a decision. in that fight. Not a ton of names on his resume, Lance. Kane Watts, Mark Flanagan. Riyadh, Muri is a good fighter. That's how he won his cruiserweight title back in 2018. I believe that was the vacated belt by Alexander Usik. So he's been a champion for, what, six years now, almost six years now.

So that's pretty impressive. But, you know, fought twice in 2018, twice in 2019, didn't fight again until 2022. So he has fought one time since December of 2019. That's a variable in all this. Whereas as Zerda Ramirez, he fought back in October against Joe Smith. Before that, he had taken about a year off, then fought to meet you bevo.

But before that, he was really active. He was fighting Dominic Bosel, Udneseki Gonzalez, Sullivan Barrera. So the activity edge goes to Zerto Ramirez. And what, how old is Gula Mareis? Is this mid-30s, right? Yeah, 335. Yeah, 34, 33.

I have something like that. And Zerto's not young either. He's 32 at this point. Look, I just think Zerto is going to have a good game planned a box. I think he's going to... I think he's going to find ways to stick and move. And maybe that'll only last for seven, eight rounds. Maybe Gullamarian will eventually track him down.

But for a guy in his mid-30s that hasn't been active, I worry about his conditioning as well. Look, it's a... I'm surprised that you are so bullish on Gullimarian. Let's watch what happens. Watch what happens. Weight classes matter, Chris. I get that. I get that.

Look, Zerto, this will be his first fight at Cruiserweight. The last fight against Joe Smith, I think, was a 193-pound catch weight, so that's not the full 200. Granted, Zerto has one of the freakish bodies you'll ever see in boxing, one that can shrink down to 175 and rehydrate 24 hours later to 205. I've actually seen that happen. So that's weird. So he can fill the frame. But it's one thing to

rehydrate to 200 pounds. Another thing to be solid at 200 pounds. We've seen countless times, Lance, whether it's this weight class, other weight classes. It takes guys time to become full-fledged whatever weights, right? Terrence Crawford's a great example. Moved up to 147. He wasn't a true, solid welterweight,

really until that Errol Spence fight. I remember Beaumach, the trainer for Terrence Crawford, warning people over and over again, like, don't let this guy get comfortable at the, weight. So, yeah, you may be right there that, you know, weight classes do matter, and Zerto is not quite at that cruiser weight level just yet. But I think it does make this fight pretty interesting. I think Zerto's boxing skills are better than Gullamarians. I think Gullimarian has much more power than Zerdo, especially in the Cruiserweight Division. So the show you will be attending

this weekend is in Vegas. You'll be there for pay-per-view.com. It's had a couple of permutations. now, right? It began as a show headlined by Tim Zhu against Keith Thurman. Just last week, Keith Thurman bowed out of the fight, has a biceps injury. In-steps, Sebastian Fondora, who was supposed to face Sergey Boychuk on the opening bout for a WBC title. Now that title is going to be on the line against Tim Zew, two belts on the line. I've said this repeatedly, Lance. I thought the Keith Thurman versus Tim Zoo fight was non-competitive. I thought there was a 0.0% chance that Keith Derman was going to win that fight. I think this one's going to be more competitive.

I still favor Tim Zhu, but Sebastian Vendora has one loss on his resume, and it was a catastrophic knockout to Brian Mendoza in his last fight. But he was winning every round of that fight before he got hit with a shot. He is massive for 154. 6'54 pounds. I have no idea. The genetics of Sebastian Fendorndon. and his sister, who is a 112-pound champion,

are freakish, how they can squeeze down to these weight classes. So Fondora, who's a banger, who is strong, who's got size, he's good. And I think this is a much more competitive fight for Tim Zhu than Keith Thurman would have been. What do you think of this matchup? Yeah, no, it is interesting fight, no doubt about it. I mean, don't forget the 80-inch reach of Sebastian Fondora.

It's amazing. The problem is he doesn't use it, though. Like, I mean, I don't, like, he never used. He's doing this fight. He's going to want us to keep... Everything's a fight in a phone booth with him, though. Yeah. But everything of him is on the inside.

Well, he's got to watch himself this fight, right? I mean, he can't expose his body to Tim Zoo throughout, you know, multiple rounds, or he's going to fall again. Let's be honest. I mean, that's what Tim Zoo wants to do. That's what he wants to subject them to. Even Bo Hachick was talking about that, you know, in their fight. You know, I'm going to pound the body.

So, you know, it's an interesting. It is a more interesting fight. I know you don't like Keith Thurman in this in the prior. That's an understanding. That's an understanding. Yeah. And, you know, I think the Keith Thurman injury is legit. You know, he'll be back on some level.

Yeah. Yeah. But for Tim Zhu, you know, this is an opportunity to capture the two belts and position himself for a showdown with Terrence Crawford, who's already basically coordinated with the WBO to be in line for this fight. So, you know, look, there's a little. lot of unique things going on with this fight, Chris, on Prime Video. Obviously, it being the debut. I think they, you know, they're putting their best foot forward here with four title

fights. It's not like, you know, it's not filled with household names, but I think Raleigh Romero and Pitbull Cruz is a good fight. Two other title fights with Arizona Lera and Julio Cesar Martinez on this card as well. It's interesting to me, you know, like, can this card help change the paradigm of boxing? I think that's the thing that I'm really watching because it's like something has to be done. HBO has gone away. Showtime has gone away. Ratings have sagged.

You know, the whole world that we live in with boxing, and I'm not going to say the corrupt corruption of it, but just the manipulation of the sport has to stop. And it has to become like, let's make the best fights. Let's follow the UFC model and do the kinds of things that they are doing on this card to show everyone world title fights. So you've been in contact with the people with Prime Video. You talk to PBC people as well. Right now they've got three shows scheduled, right?

You've got the one March 30th. You've got Canelo against Mungia on May 4th. And you've got what's believed to be a mid-June date for. for Jervante Davis against Frank Martin. We keep hearing about, all right, in addition to the paper views, we're going to get as many as a dozen non-paper-view shows. But right now, there's nothing scheduled,

and we're hitting the one-third mark of the 2024 calendar. Like, are you buying that? Are you buying that we're going to get, you know, a half dozen or more non-paper-view shows with Amazon? By the end of the year. You know, I think by the end of the year, yeah. I mean, ultimately they want to have like a dozen of these shows per year. So, you know.

Okay, but just do the math, Lance. We're already talking in at least two in some months. Oh, absolutely. I mean, like the math, the math doesn't really add up. It doesn't add up. And the other thing is, how are they going to view like college football season as well, too? So, I mean, there's a lot of unknowns here. Historically not a section of the calendar that people want to do fights on, at least not on Saturday night.

And by the way, Friday could become a watch. as well with college football looking to to penetrate that landscape. The NFL, I think the NFL's goal ultimately is go every day of the week at some point. So, yeah, like I have some skepticism that we're going to get double-digit non-paper-view events on Prime Video. Yeah, I mean, it's going to be interesting, Chris. I think that they deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point just because, like, you know, a fresh start is needed. So let's see what they can come up with. I've been, the way it's been described to me is that,

that these cards, these prime video cards will feature up and coming fighters that PBC has. Now, the thing is, is that let's see quality fights. You know, the matchmaking is it's really going to be on these guys to be able to make entertaining fights because when fight fans are turning into a main event, they want to see a good scrap. They don't want to see a walkover where someone says that they're good, you know, by third round knockout. I mean, we can see that on the on the undercard of Canella, you know. So again, I think that this is the, this is really a golden opportunity when you consider the amount of eyeballs that will be on the prime video cards. And I know like they're still working on

things about distributing it to foreign, foreign locations as well that should be sorted out here in short order. But, you know, take advantage of this. This opportunity existed before when PBC struck the deal, remember at its origin with NBC and ABC and all those networks. And it just seems like it was a missed opportunity. That can't happen again, I don't think. I think that boxing has a great opportunity to get over the firewalls that exist

in co-promotion. the manipulations, like I've said, with the sanctioning bodies. Put your foot down, you know? Like, say, like, enough is enough. Look at, I understand that you've lined your pockets with cash from sanctioning fees. But look at what has happened to the sport in the meantime. So there is this opportunity here, and I believe that it can start by what is happening on Saturday night in Las Vegas.

Yeah, the, what's a little ironic. is that this card coming up, more so maybe now with Keith Thurman off it, would have been a perfect prime video non-paper view card because it is compelling from top to bottom, right? Like we just talked about the main event. I think the Raleigh Pitbull fight is really interesting. You know, Roli is 140 pound champion, but he's probably the most criticized 140 criticize world champion out there right now,

whereas Pitbull had a competitive fight with Jervante Davis, and all of a sudden he thought that entitled him to like, you know, whatever. You know, at the very least a rematch with Jervante. So that to me is a 50-50 type of fight. You throw in the fact that, you know, both those guys turned down opportunities to fight Ryan Garcia. Like, there's a lot of intrigue to that fight. Even, you know, Boeuch and now Brian Mendoza.

That's a scrap. Like, that is a scrap. Like you put aside. the titles and all that, that is an absolute scrap that you're going to get to see on Saturday. The problem is like, and people have said this.

You know, Lou DeBello was on this podcast, like a week ago, others have said it. People buy paper views based on the top of the ticket, right? Like they buy because they want, they're willing to pay money to see Canelo. They buy because they're willing to pay money

theoretically to see Ryan Garcia fight Devin Haney. They bought a year ago because they wanted to see Giovante Davis fight Ryan Garcia. Like that is. is why people are willing to throw down $60, $80, $100 to watch a pay-per-view. They're just less likely to do that because they think they're going to get a good competitive fight. That's unfortunate, but that's kind of the way it is.

So I am interested to see what the pay-per-view numbers are for this Amazon debut, but I'm more interested to see what level of fights they're willing to put on Amazon Prime. Are we going to get like a competitive main event like we have, on Saturday on regular Amazon Prime. Like that, that's what I'm, I'm eager to see because Amazon's reach is unparalleled, right? Like everyone,

especially in the U.S., has Amazon and their homes. I order like toothpaste on Amazon on a given day. I think I just ordered like five things this morning on Amazon today. Like people have it. It has great distribution. They have an opportunity to really showcase boxing to an even big, larger mass,

are a larger swath of people, but they got to do it right, and the jury's still out on how they're going to do it. You're right. Give them the benefit of the doubt, but the jury is definitely still out. Yeah, it is. I mean, you're absolutely right.

I'm just looking at the card, like you said. I mean, a guy like Elijah Garcia, who's on this card, and if he wins, he gets the title shot. I mean, let's just assume that Laura wins his fight. Put that at the top. Maybe not. Maybe not, Laura.

I think that's a competitive fight, too. I think Lara could lose that fight. No. No, I'm actually more than betting you on Zerto Guilmerian, but I think you've been, you and your pal, your golf buddy Abel Sanchez, have been, I think you have been snookered perhaps. You are being overly influenced by the great Able Sages. I'm telling me he's worked with the guy for a long time. It's not, it's like they just a line. No, no, look, I have spent almost a week now watching every Gullimarian fight on YouTube. I see Abel Sanchez in the corner of those fights.

So there's definitely a chemistry there. Inactivity, age, lack of output. I don't know. Now you've got to be squishing everything. Anyways, what I'm saying is, okay, when you're talking about the Prime Video Cards, Elijah Cards Garcia wins this fight on Saturday. Laura wins.

Perfect main event for one of the PBS on Prime Video, PBC Championship fights on Prime Video. Right? Middleweight Championship. Exactly. So that, I mean, those are the opportunities. Take advantage of them. Don't be afraid to bring in a guy from another promotion to put him on your stage.

It's going to help the sport. It's going to help you. I mean, look at the main event here. Like Tim Zhu is a PBC guy, sort of, right? Like, he's PBC adjacent. But Tim Zoo's focus is being active, right? If Tim Zoo can't get opportunities with PBC, Tim Zoo's going to take his talents elsewhere.

Now that probably is going to happen this year because it seems, likely if Zhu beats Fondora, we get a Terrence Crawford fight, which, by the way, is a great fight. That is a great fight. I would favor Crawford, but I think Tim Zhu is getting better every single fight. And as you just said, weight classes matter. Moving up to 154, we'll see if Terrence takes the same kind of punches that he does at 147. Let's see if he has the same kind of power he did at 147.

I think that is a really compelling fight. That is a natural Amazon Prime pay-per-view. Easy one to make right there. And by the way, last thing, I'm sorry, to talk about how boxing has sucked in the past, this main event should be Zoo versus Jermel Charlo, right? Wouldn't that be a perfect way for this whole thing to start? Instead, everyone got involved and screwed it up. Yeah, although I don't know when we're going to see Jermal Charlo back in the ring.

That could be a while. Yeah, there's a lot going on in the world of Jermel Charlo at the moment. That might keep them out of the ring for the foreseeable future. All right, Lance, very interesting weekend coming up. I will be texting you from LA updates on the Zerto Gullamarian card. I expect the same from you from Vegas. Good to catch up, man. Catch Lance on boxing scene.com, payperview.com as well.

Appreciate your time, Lance. Thank you so much, Chris. Anytime. And when we come back, my conversation with Tim Zoo. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clipper Taylor the Follinger. forth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you

behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because, of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your All right, Tim Zoo is here the WBO 154 pound champion on Saturday. He will look to Unify Belt. So he takes on Sebastian Fondora. That's a fight you can watch on Amazon Prime pay-per-view. And Tim, for people watching, it's been a while, a couple of weeks. What have these last couple of weeks been like for you to watch Keith Thurman dropout

and Sebastian Fondora step in? Yeah, it's just been able to adapt to change. change, you know, took one night. We've got new sparring partners, spied three times. So, you know, the change was made and the show goes on. So we're, look, Keith Derman's had a history of injuries. He's had a history of pulling out of fights. What was your reaction when you were told that he was not going to be available to fight? Yeah, I was shattered, you know, I was shattered. I remember when I got the news about Chalo, same thing. I was just in disbelief.

But then I said, all right, what do we do? And then they gave me the next option. I said, all right, done, deal. Let's get it on. Did they give you options, or was Fondora the guy you were just presented with? No, they gave me Fondora and Lara. But being a 154, I'm... I said I'll fight Fondora.

So you could have fought Lara for, would it have been Lara's middleweight title? I'm not sure. I'm not sure how. It was just, they were the two names that were presented. Why was this the right one for you? Why did you choose Fondora? Because he's in my weight, 154. Yeah. Did you know at the time that this was going to be made a uniform?

fight that it would not only be just Fondora, but it would be for a second belt. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. That just, all of that came around, I think, a day after, so all of that just became even more appetizing. So you were preparing for a guy that's like five foot six, five foot seven, right-handed, uh, fighter who moves a lot. You're going to fight a guy that's six foot six left.

who doesn't move that much at all. Like, how big an adjustment is this going to be for you? Yeah, it's opposite. It's complete opposite. You can't even describe any similarities between them to at all. So it is what it is, you know. Champions adapt to anything, one week prep for a fight of this magnitude, whatever. You know, I'm going to show the world that,

You know, you can put your mind to it and adapt to anything given in life circumstances. Did it, did you think it all about, you know, just walking away from this fight postponing to another day? Never, never. Why not? That's not who I am, you know. I wasn't on. It's not part of me to postpone. The show goes on, you know, where we're creating history.

I'm living my dream. I'm living. a young kid's dream, you know, growing up. So this is what it's all about for me. So what do you do? Do you tell your previous sparring partners, thanks for coming. We don't need you anymore. And then does somebody go out and find a bunch of six foot six guys?

Like, how does that work? Yeah, well, the, my, my, my coach and manager and one of my, like, assistant coaches organized her like that. Flew in two boys, six foot four. and then a 6'5 start Southpaws the next day. So they arrived the next morning, and I've got three spars in like that, you know. So I've got a professional team that gets stuff done and simple, you know.

How do you think the adjustment's going to be maybe mentally? I mean, I'm sure mentally you were prepared for a guy that's going to be on the move for however long that fight lasts. Fondora is massive, but doesn't use that size advantage at all, at least not in the fights that I've seen. Like, is it, how big an adjustment is it going to be for you in the ring? Mentally, there's no adjustment needed, you know. I'm already prepped.

It's just stylistically, that's all it is, you know, creating a different game plan, going from different shots, changing it up. But, you know, you just got to, you have to adapt. You know, this is what champions do. is this kind of a throwback Tim to like the amateur days like when you were an amateur I'm sure you fought you didn't know where you were fighting sometimes probably when you showed up for particular fights is this kind of a throwback to that where look I was preparing for one guy but this is kind

just the way it goes if I've got to fight him I've got to fight him yeah it's this is all experience you know you learn on the on the game and um it's like uh yeah it's like a mystery box you it's like uh what are they called little kids Kind of kind of surprise. Does this fight, I know you were excited to fight Keith Thurman. Keith Thurman talks a lot. He would have been a big name on your resume. But look, I've been saying, you know, for weeks now,

I thought there was a zero percent chance Keith could beat you. I just didn't think he was on your level at this weight class. And I thought it would have been one-sided. I'd still make you a favorite against Fondora. But to me, as a boxing fan, this fight's a lot more interesting. because we know Fondorick can crack. We know he's got a high skill level. I mean, he was up six zip on Mendoza before he got knocked out.

So you've got what I think is a more credible opponent in front of you and a chance to become a unified champion in this weight class. Does that make this fight more meaningful to you in a way than a Thurman fight would have been? Yeah, you know what? Funny thing is the Thurman fight was sort of felt like a comedy show, like him in his antics and him and talking it up. But this feels like a fight.

And I love that feeling to be able to feel like you're in a fight, you know, because for some reason when I feel that this certain way, I'm completely different and I zone in and I rise to the occasion. And I'm actually very glad that this happened because when I had that switch, it was like, yes, this is, this is me. This is how I should feel. do you think that he's going to fight the way he's fought his pretty much all his previous opponents I mean he has been a fight in a phone booth type of guy for for most of his career do you expect

that type of fight on Saturday? Probably yeah probably like yeah a lot of the opponents feel like because he's so tall you need to get in and and he's good at inside boxing so you know it all yeah it's it's it's stylistically, it's an interesting fight. And he's an interesting fighter stylistically as well. When was the last time you had to punch up at an opponent like that? Every time, actually. Every time I fight, everyone's taller than me.

I don't think I've ever fought anyone. First time was going to be Keith Thurman. I was like, I was actually, you know, what is going to be pretty cool trying to fight someone a bit, I'm fighting someone a bit shorter than me. Now I'm back to fighting taller guys. But this has got to be the biggest guy you've ever fought, in terms of height anyway, right? He's he the highest, he's the tallest one, 54-pounder ever?

I know, yeah. I don't know many people that I like that. Never say anything like it. Him and his sister are both, like, genetic freaks and how tall they are as fighters. It's wild to see. A couple things before you go. Keith Derman says he wants to reschedule his fight with you once he gets healthy. Why do you feel about that?

No, not happening. Why not? Why do you have no interest now? We move on. You know, you progress. You don't go back to the scraps. You move on. And you talk about moving on.

A lot of people writing about, talking about how the winner of this fight, you know, is an option for Terence Crawford. Terence Crawford's looking to move up and wait. I know that's not on your mind right now as you prepare for Sebastian Fondora, but is that a fight you would embrace? Is that a fight you would expect to have, you know, before the end of the year if you get through Sebastian Fondora? Yeah, 100%, you know, 100%. That's like you live for these type of fights, you know.

This is what motivates you to keep going. Is this, Tim, how kind of boxing should be, right? Like, you've been incredibly active over the last couple of years in situations where I think a lot of fighters wouldn't have been. A lot of fighters would have sat out, waited for the exact right opportunity. whereas you, you're just like, I'm going to face this guy, I'm going to face that guy, whoever's next, I'm going to fight. And I'm guessing that's probably made you a better fighter over the last couple of years because you've really, I think, improved in the ring every single time out. Has this level of activity been beneficial for you in the last couple of years?

Yeah, you know, it shows character and fearlessness, you know, no challenges, no mountain is high. no mountains too high, you know, so you just got to keep challenging yourself and whatever you're given, you're given. We're in this sport for such a short period of time. Why waste it? You know, make the most of every moment. I think that attitude is missing in boxing right now. There needs to be more of that. 100%. 100%. You know. Well, Tim, good luck on Saturday, man. Like I said, I was, I'm always excited to watch you fight because I think you're a great young fight. but I am way more excited to watch you fight against Sebastian Vondora because I think that's going to be a real fight

and that's going to be a fun fight as long as it lasts in the ring. So good luck to you, man, and I appreciate your time. I appreciate it. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Lance Pugmire and Tim Zoot for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. And I will be back later this week, hopefully joined by a familiar guest.

Man on the run and I'm not doing your fucking podcast. We're not doing it, bro. I'm a man on the run. On the run. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement home. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with athletes, creators, and voices. that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes, for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.