The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Bud Crawford's Future

Episode Date: January 19, 2024

Mannix and Keith Idec dive into Artur Beterbiev's win over Callum Smith, a future matchup with Dmitry Bivol, what's next for Bud Crawford, the recently announced Anthony Joshua-Francis Ngannou card and more; later, former 130-pound champion Mikaela Mayer on moving up to 147 pounds and her fight with Natasha Jonas. And Mayer weighs in on USA Boxing's controversial new transgender policy. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me.

Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes,

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Anthony Joshua is a composed and ferocious finisher. Watch this. Hosted by S.I's Chris Mannix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. And we are back.

Boxing with Chris Manix, part of the volume of sports podcast network, calling Cowherts Podcast Network. I want to welcome in everyone that's listening on the podcast feed. If you are not a subscriber, get over to the feed, hit that subscribe button,

make sure you get this podcast, sometimes two podcasts, in your feed, every single week. So we've got a great show lined up for you. Keith Ideck, senior writer, boxing scene.com, friend of the podcast, one of the best insiders in this business.

We get into all the news of this past week, from Archer BetterBev's big win to the future of a BetterBev against Dmitry Bevel fight. We've got some thoughts on Terrence Crawford, who might be looking for another opponent in the aftermath of the most recent eye surgery for Errol Spence. So Keith and I cover all the news of the week in the first part of this podcast.

A little bit later, Michaela Mayer, the former unified 130 pound champion. She's got a big fight this weekend over in the UK, moving all the way up to 147 pounds to challenge Natasha Jonas for her welterweight title. I talked to Michaela about that fight, how she has become kind of a UK fighter over the last couple of years.

I also talked to Michaela about USA boxing's decision to allow transgender women to compete against cisgender women in their competitions. Michaela, of course, is a former U.S. So she's got some thoughts on that. Great conversation with Michaela Mayer. Before we get to that, I do have to weigh in on the recent rulings by the WBC and the WBO when it comes to Alicia Baumgartner.

Now, back in July, in the aftermath of Alicia Baumgartner's win over Christina Linne d'Artoe, it was revealed that she tested positive for two banned substances. Now, Baumgartner has vehemently denied that these substances could have gotten into her system. She has pointed out correctly that she was the one that was pushing for advanced testing. So she has been aggressively defending herself over the last six, seven months. And in the last week, The WBC ruled that Baumgardner will be allowed to keep her 130 pound title. Now, the rationale from the WBC is that even though they are not disputing the validity of the positive test,

they are saying that in their opinion, Baumgardner did not intentionally put this substance into her body, and therefore she is going to be allowed to keep her. titles. She's going to be on probation, has to undergo strict drug testing over the next six months. Some other criteria pushed in there. But the bottom line is that Baumgartner is going to keep her WBC belt. She is also going to keep her WBO title. The WBO effectively just followed suit and piggybacked on the WBC ruling and said the exact same thing. So she's going to be allowed to keep her titles. Now, this has come with some pushback from people in boxing, most notably Lou Debella, who is the promoter for Christina Linidartu, who has made the case that, look,

even if it was unintentionally ingested, there was a foreign substance, an illegal substance, in her body. As a result, the fight should be overturned to a no contest, and Baumgartner should lose her titles, and Linodartu, a former champion, should be allowed to compete for at least one of those vacant titles. It's kind of hard to argue with that logic, because while I'm not making any assumptions, I'm not making any declarations or coming to any conclusions about how it came to be that Baumgartner tested positive.

The reality is it she did. And neither the WBC or the WBO is refuting the validity of that positive test. So it just strikes me as strange, beyond strange, that you are saying that this test is accurate, but you are not going to take the world title away from the person that tested positive. I can't make any sense of that or figure out how that makes any sense. This isn't about, to be clear, any kind of suspension for Alicia Baumgart. because the reality is when it comes to this kind of first offense, suspensions are often for six months, right? So Canelo Alvarez tested positive for a banned substance back in 2018. He got a six

month suspension. More recently, Michelle Rivera tested positive for a banned substance. He got a six month suspension. So six months has already passed since that date. So it's not about suspending Alicia Baumgart. It's about whether or not she should be allowed to retain her titles. And the WBC's explanation, as is often the case, just makes no sense whatsoever. Now, I reached out to Maricio Suleiman, the head of the WBC, to ask him to explain at least how this banned substance could have been accidentally ingested. Remember, when the Connor Ben situation came up, the WBC ruled that their scientists, their

experts believe that it was contaminated eggs that caused Connor Ben to test positive for clomophene. Now, people can believe that. They can not believe that. It certainly is subjective, but there was at least an explanation there. There was no explanation in this statement about how this positive test could have been, could have popped accidentally. So it was very confusing to say the least. But I'm saving my share. strongest reaction for the Michigan Unarmed Combat Commission, which is the State Commission that was overseeing this fight between Baumgartner and Leonard R2. The Michigan Unarmed Combat Commission has embarrassed itself over the last six months because

they've said nothing. I'm trying to find the best way to articulate this, but whether it's reporters like myself, that are calling and emailing, or a promoter like Lou DeBella and his staff, which have called repeatedly trying to get answers as to how the Michigan Commission is going to handle this positive test. They have just been ghosted. There has been no response from the Michigan Commission

about how it will deal with this positive test. Because the Michigan Commission is really the only body here that can overturn the result of that fight. And understandably, Debella, Litterdatu, they have pushed for answers on this. And they've gotten nothing. I don't get it. And my message to fighters that might be considering fighting in Michigan, this has to give you reason for pause. Because if you're going up against someone and there is a positive drug test,

why should you believe that they will handle it in a professional way? So anyone that wants to fight in, say, Detroit, which has done some fights, literally Zerina, Clarissa Shields has done some fights there. Why would you do it? Why would you do it? If they're going to handle it this unprofessionally, I don't know why any fighter would trust being involved in a fight there. So again, it's not, the situation now is not about Baumgartner and her future, because regardless of whether or not, she had her titles, a suspension wouldn't have lasted longer than six months.

She's going to be free to fight any time in the foreseeable future. My issue is how this has been handled by the sanctioning bodies, which issue confusing statements that make you wonder just how much they actually care about drug testing in boxing. And the State Athletic Commission in Michigan, which has been, you know, absent from this discussion and really needs to come forward and make a state. on this sooner rather than later to create some resolution. I say that because I've talked to people on both sides here on Baumgartner's side and on Leonard Doctrie's side. Both sides want the

Michigan Commission to do something. They want them to say something. And right now, the Michigan Commission is like an absentee landlord. They have not been involved in this process whatsoever. So that's disheartening because if there is a sport where you need to take drug testing seriously, it's boxing. Lives are on the line. You need to take it seriously. And the behavior by the WBC, the WBO, and the Michigan Commission tells me that they do not take it seriously. So we'll see what happens in the weeks and months ahead when it comes to the commission and what they will say on this matter. All right, let's get into it. Keith Ideck, senior writer, boxing scene.com. He joins me next. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball

to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw,

unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment and the next we'll talk about life,

mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, Follow at Clifford and a TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim?

Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Keith Ideck joins me. Boxing Scene.com. Good friend of the podcast. If you are watching clips of this on YouTube, you will notice that Keith is wearing a Showtime Championship boxing sweatshirt. A collector's item now, Keith, that, now is, does it become vintage?

yet? Is it a vintage sweatshirt, given that it's been, you know, a little under a month since Showtime has exited boxing? Do we call it vintage? I don't know what we call it. Let's start a bidding war for a used sweatshirt, fat guy in New Jersey. Let's get it going. Come on. It is brutally cold here in New Jersey today, so it'll layer up here. You know what I mean? I went outside to bring in the garbage can before, you know, that that was brutal. cold 15 feet from the garage to the street, you know? I am, you know, a few hundred miles north of you in Boston right now, and it is cold as well up here. Still not as much snow as I thought would be getting at this point, but definitely cold as well. So multi-layered here in the northeast.

So a few topics I want to get into with you, Keith. I do want to kind of get your thoughts on something I began the show with, which is. the curiosity around the rulings regarding the positive drug tests with Alicia Baumgardner. As I said at the top of the show, you know, tested positive for a couple of banned substances. The WBC and the WBO this week came out with some rulings on this. That effectively affirmed that they believe the test results to be valid, but they believe that these substances were not ingested for performance enhancing reasons. Meanwhile, the state of Michigan has been silent on this matter.

They are the state governing body when it comes to this fight, which took place this past July in Michigan. To me, Keith, it feels just strange that stuff like this is not being treated. that I think with the gravity that it should be. So I guess I just want to get your reaction to kind of how this is all played out over the last couple of days. Yeah, Chris, it almost begs the question that we often ask. I mean, people who cover boxing, people boxing fans, people who are invested in the sport in whichever way. Why even bother doing drug testing if you're not going to punish the people who fail tests? Now, look, there are all kinds of reasons that people can come up with about why they tested positive for substance X or substance Y. This is not the first

time that the WBC has, you know, not found a fighter guilty of testing positive for something or however you want to frame it. You know, Oscar Valdez was allowed to move forward with the fight. What was it? Two and a half years ago or so now. If there's not some uniformity among the commissions, and of course people are always clamoring for a national commission, which I don't think we're ever going to get. But if there's not some uniformity enforcing these rules and administering these testing procedures, I don't think we're going to get what we want out of drug testing. And that's really unfortunate because Chris, as we've mentioned many times on the podcast and elsewhere, people are risking their lives every time they go up those steps. And the people who are doing it cleanly deserve

every opportunity to know that the opponent that they're facing is as clean as he or she is. Yeah, there's few, if any, other sports that drug testing needs to be taken as seriously as it needs to be taken in boxing. Unfortunately, right now it doesn't seem like it's being taken as seriously, at least not as seriously as it should. All right, I want to talk about what we saw this past weekend with Archer-Betterb. Because Archer-Ber-Ber-Bev continues to be, you know, the most intimidating force in boxing. I think that's a reasonably fair statement to make. He goes up in the title defense against Callum Smith. There were a lot of people, Keith,

that thought this fight was going to be competitive. Callum Smith had a couple of knockouts that's moving up, 275 pounds. He had some size, he had some length. He had a good trainer and Buddy McGirt in his corner. And then Archer Betterby of basically walked right through him. I think you maybe could have given Callum Smith one round in that fight.

Archer Betterby have put Callum down twice, the first two times in Callum's career as an amateur or pro, that he has been down. before Buddy McGirt hopped up on the ring apron and brew in the towel. So you've seen a lot of Archer Betterbeyev over the last couple of years, Keith, a lot of impressive wins by Archer Betterbeth. What did you think of this one? Well, Chris, unfortunately, we don't see enough of Archer Betterbiev because he's had a multitude of injuries.

That's true. And he's only, he's been a professional for 10 and a half years and he's only fought 20 times. He, of course, had a pretty long legal entanglement with his former promoter, Yvonne Michelle, which put him on the shelf a little bit, but it's mostly been various injuries. He had a knee injury and a shoulder injury and a rib injury, et cetera, et cetera. In this case, an infection in his jaw, which delayed this fight four and a half months. So we've been robbed to some degree of seeing how great arts or better be of could be on a more consistent basis.

What we saw Saturday night, Chris, as you asked, was a pretty amazing performance. You know, the only thing I would say is that Callum Smith is a very good fighter, a former 168-pound world champion, you know, very, very good. But both times that he stepped up to what you would consider the elite level, and I don't consider George Groves to be the elite level, when he stepped up and faced Canelo Alvarez, he lost 11 rounds, 10 rounds. In fairness to him, he took that fight on practically four weeks notice for the payday in the heart of the pandemic, which, look, if you take the payday, you have to, whatever comes along with it you have to accept. And Callum Smith did do that. He was not making excuses or anything. But be that as it may, he lost a lopsided decision to Canelo Alvarez. And now when he fought Archer Bedev, you could argue that he won the second round. I think he did win the second round. Maybe he won the sixth round. I think he got credit on two of the scorecards. I believe

they gave him two of the first six rounds. So if you just, if you didn't watch the fight and you went back and read about it on boxing scene or ESPN.com or wherever, you would say, oh, well, it must have been reasonably competitive because he was down 58, 56 on two score cards and 59, 55 on the other card. So, you know, Callum Smith must have done some things well in this fight. I certainly didn't get that sense. I got the sense that Callum Smith didn't quite land the type of left hook. He certainly didn't land anything flush where you would have liked to have seen him land that shot and see how Artur-Bever react to it, reacted to it, because Betterbyev has been down twice in his career against Zach Page and, of course, against Callum Johnson,

which was discussed ad nauseum before the fight because Callum Smith used to train with Callum Johnson, actually sparred with him before Callum Johnson fought Betterbeth. They were trained by Joe Gallagher at the time. But he didn't do any of the things that a lot of people thought that Callum Smith was going to do in the fight, and that's credit to Betterbiev doing the things that he did. Because, Chris, the thing that I think I was most impressed with, with Better B.F., we know he can punch. I mean, of course, you know, we know he's a destructive force and all of that. I was impressed with his defense more than anything because I thought he was more effective defensively in this fight and I had seen him against other top level guys, including Callum Johnson, that probably had to do with the amount of respect that Better Biaf had

for Callum Smith. He was much more responsible defensively, didn't really get hit with a lot of clean shots. And so maybe what he and his trainer, Mark, Mark, Jimsy have been saying that he's getting better, even though he's going to turn 39 years old on Sunday, he's getting better with age because Betterby have told me he still thinks the way he feels and the way his trainers are telling him he looks in the gym now that he can fight three, four, four, five more years at this level. And I think people would welcome that. Yeah, you're right about the defense. I was really impressed with how he operated defensive. I was really impressed with his game plan coming into that fight. I forget what round it was. But Buddy McGirt was urging

Callum Smith to go to the body more because, as Buddy was saying, like, archers onto your game plan. He knows you're a catch-and-shoot fighter. He's, he's aware of it. He's not going to give you that. So you've got to try to mix things up and do something different. That tells you something. I mean, as strong and powerful and destructive as better BF is, he does bring some nuance to the game. He brings some finesse to the game with what he does defensively and how he and Mark Ramsey approach each fight. So that was a really impressive overall performance. by Archer Betterbeyev. And now it seems like we're going to get the big one,

which is Archer Betterbeyev against Dimitri Bebo. We've been talking about this fight, Keith, for years now. Both these guys have been champions at light, heavyweight for a number of years. But Saudi Arabia wants that fight. What Saudi Arabia wants, it tends to get when it comes to boxing matches. And frankly, I think that Saudi Arabia is kind of the right place for that fight. You could do it in Quebec City or Montreal. where Better Beb has built a pretty respectable fan base.

But the money is just going to be so much more significant over in the Middle East. So that's a fight that I think could happen as early as June. And if it does happen, Keith, I don't know. I mean, watching Better Beav perform against Callum Smith, even though Bevo is a different fighter and a much better fighter and certainly a more disciplined fighter, I think, than Callum Smith, I just sit there. I keep thinking to myself, like, how do you keep Archer BetterBF off you for 12 rounds? Bebo's got a good chin. He's got great footwork. But BetterBF is just relentless. And he showed you in that Smith fight where it doesn't take much for BetterBF to hurt you. That first punch to put Callum Smith down, that was a really short right hand, a really short one. Not the kind of punch that you get full extension on you. And it's obvious that's a knockout blow.

BetterBeef has just so much power and can hurt you in so many different ways. As much as I like Bevo, I kind of favor BetterBeef going into that fight. Yeah, I would favor Better B.F as well, but I think as you said about the shot that he caught Callum Smith with, I think it was an accumulation of punches. He hadn't heard him before that, as you said, but he's breaking you down. And then he catches him with a good right hand on the side of the head in the right spot. And I think it knocked his equilibrium off. And that was the beginning of the end for Calvin Smith. But as you said, Chris, it looks like we're finally going to get this fight.

The reason for the most part that we didn't get it, one, it belonged in Russia, right? So for the last two years when people were talking about it, it couldn't be in Russia. Once Russia invaded Ukraine, there were not going to be any high-profile fights that were sanctioned by sanctioning bodies, which, of course, this one would be sanctioned by all four in Russia. So that's where it really belonged. because I understand that Better Beav has lived in Montreal for the last 10 plus years. He's a Canadian citizen now and all that kind of stuff, but he's Russian. He's Russian, yes. No matter what the WBC says, he's Russian.

And Dimitri Bevall has born in Kyrgyzstan, but of course has lived in Russia most of his life. Although DeZone and other people who are insistent on saying he's from Indio, California, for reasons unbeknownst to anyone, because you're not fooling anyone. He's from Russia. It's okay. I mean, it doesn't mean that Betterbeyev and Bivol are responsible for the atrocities of the Russian government. But the fight couldn't happen in Russia where they really would have put up a lot of money for it to happen. The money, according to what Bob Aram and others had told me, to have the fight in Montreal,

was just or Quebec City, just wasn't quite there to satisfy both fighters until the Saudi Arabian government came along. And of course, they're not going to put it in Montreal or Quebec City. They're going to put it right where they wanted at Kingdom Arena and Riyadh, which is understandable. they're paying the money. You can have it in Turkey-Alesheek's kitchen if you want to. I mean, it'll be where he says it is, whether people like it or not. They're the ones printing the money over there for the time being, so that's where the fight's going to be.

And Better Behav is Muslim. He's a practicing Muslim, so, you know, it's a Muslim country. So to that point, I guess it makes some sort of sense. But the fight's happening. First and foremost, boxing fan should be happy that this fight is finally happening. It's long overdue. it looks like the way that Better Biev performs Saturday night, it's not going to be past its due date, that you're not getting an agent Arter Bette Bivowell that's more in his prime. And we should be

thankful for that as well. It's a high-level fight. It's going to determine the first fully unified light heavyweight champion of the four belt era. So let's hope it happens next. We have no reason to believe it isn't because Turkey Al-A-Sheek has said he wants the fight. According to what Eddie Hearn has said the Bivol side of it from a financial standpoint is locked up. So now it's just a matter of Bob Aram and the brain trust at top rank getting together with Turkey Alashik and making the deal, which I don't see as an obstacle. So Bob said something to the effect that a better BF won't train during Ramadan, which ends April 9th, give him a little time after that to get his body back in order because of the fasting and all that kind of stuff, get into a real training camp.

So maybe we see that fight sometime in the summer in Rio. Yeah. And Bevel being locked in is huge because my belief for, once Russia was off the table, my belief that perhaps the biggest obstacle to making that fight happen in a place like Quebec City or Montreal or Vegas was the financial demands of Demetri Bevel, his price just skyrocketed after the win over Canelo Alvarez. After the year he had in 2022, he was, you know, looking to get those kind of paydays for everything and more to fight someone like Demetri Bebel. Now you have him locked in.

I think Better Biav will be locked in pretty quickly. We are going to get that fight at some point this summer. Keith, I kind of hope it's like, you know, they've been doing some multi-fight deals over there in Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't mind seeing a two-fight deal for those two guys, at least. Because if you look at 175 pound division, who else is interesting there? Like, who else are you saying like, boy, do I want to see Archer Better Biav defend these titles against? Do I want to see Dmitri Beeble? They've kind of cleaned out the division.

Calam Smith is now gone. Zerta Ramirez is now gone. There are some prospects. I mean, I guess Joshua Bowatzi, if he gets a win, kind of interesting over in the UK. But I wouldn't mind seeing these guys fight in July. And then, you know, as long as it's a good fight, do it again in, you know, November, December. Yeah, you're right, Chris. The thing I think will be interesting to watch as we move forward through 2024 here, how does the Fury Usoc fight unfold in the ring?

Because they have a two-fight deal. So even though. It doesn't sound like they have one anymore, though. Does it? It sounds like the Saudis. We're kind of like, you know what? We're just going to do the winner of this fight against the winner of AJ Deghanu, and we'll figure everything out later.

Well, I've been told varying things, I guess, because I think it's possible that Joshua would fight Hergevich for the IBF title because the winner of the fight would be stripped of the IBF title if he doesn't fight Hergevich next. I'm not entirely sure. I mean, I don't have copies of the contracts or anything. But what I was starting to say, though, Chris, I think it might be a matter when they're paying all this money is a rematch appealing.

Because let's just say for whatever reason, Fury, Usik is a dud in the ring and one of the fighters wins decisively. Well, then there's no real reason to do the rematch, right? I mean, because then you're kind of stuck with a Terrence Crawford, Errol Spence Jr. type of situation, which even though the Saudis have a lot of money, I don't think they want to necessarily flush it down to toilet per se. So maybe they won't do these types of two-fight deals. They'll just, because they do have the money to go back to the guys after the fact and try to make a deal. So without committing themselves to certain huge purses, maybe they'll just go about it in a different way. Yeah, they could do a lot of different things.

The IBF situation with that belt is interesting. Those new rankings that came out, that number two spot is still vacant for some reason. I'm not sure why. Well, I mean, I can guess, but I assume Anthony Joshua would take that number two spot after beating Otto Wallen, who held that number two spot in the previous rating. Now, Philip Herkovich is out there. And I think Herkovich, you know, wanted to fight on that March 8th Saudi card. It doesn't look like he's getting a slot right now. And like the next available guy is like Daniel Dubois, who beat Jarrell Miller, at least in terms of highest up on that list, Dubois, Leapfrog Jared Anderson on those latest rankings.

I don't know what Philip Herkovich does or how that IBF situation plays out. But yeah, I was of the assumption that it was going to be, before the Engano stuff came along, I thought it was going to be Joshua versus Hergevich. Now, Joshua Engano, and I don't know what Hergevich is going to do. He wants to fight for that vacant title if it becomes vacant after February 17th. But that's going to be interesting to watch, see what happens with that version of the heavyweight title. Before we move on to something else, I do want to get your thoughts. thoughts on Chris Mabili, who is a really, really good 168 pounder.

One of the top contenders in that division, top five ranked, I think, in all four of the sanctioning bodies. He gets a dominant knockout win over Ronan Murdoch. Give Murdoch credit, he took a beating in that fight. He stayed on his feet and good for his corner for throwing in the towel what it did. But Christian Mabili, he's just one of those guys that's just got like a relentless motor, has got good power, great amateur background. So there's a skill set there.

When you look at Mobili, what do you see? What kind of contender do you see there? He's fun to watch, Chris. He really is. And as you said, Rohan Murdoch, I mean, kudos to, I mean, the guy showed incredible heart in that fight. That was not good for his long-term health, obviously. The fight should have probably been stopped before it was.

I know his trainer did the best job he could to look out for him, but he wasn't winning any rounds or anything. And he took an absolute beating. But Mbilius is fun to watch. He's great TV, you know, because he comes forward sort of recklessly in most cases and just throws an abundance of punches. He never stops throwing to the head or the body. He's fun to watch.

Now, you're not going to get away with that type of behavior in the ring against Canelo Alvarez or David Benavides or David Morel Jr. The types of guys, people want to see him fight. But it's fun to watch. He's built up some sort of fan base in not only quite as big as better. base, but is becoming popular in Quebec because he's also trained by Mark Ramsey, that he lives and trains in Montreal, fought for France in the 2016 Olympics, originally from Cameroon. So he's, you know, kind of an international type of fighter, so to speak.

But he's fun to watch, Chris. I don't know that necessarily he's ranked number one by the WBA and the WBC for Canello Alvarez's two of Canelo Alvarez's titles. However, there are interim champions for the WBA and WBC, WBA, WBRAL, WBC Benavides, those guys would theoretically get shots at Canello before Christian Mbele. And honestly, as fun as Mbili is, and he has the number one rankings, well, Canello Alvarez can make a fortune fighting anyone. Why is he going to fight Christian Mbili?

Not that he would avoid that fight for any reason. I mean, Canelo is better. There's no point to it. There's just no point. Unless somebody came up. up with a, you know, an enormous amount of money for Canello to come to Montreal to fight him, which, who knows? I mean, anything could happen, I guess. But unless that were to happen, I don't see M. Billy getting to fight Canello anytime soon or maybe ever. I could see him

maybe fighting David Morel or Benavides or let's say it would be a Benavides beat Canello. Maybe he would then fight Benavides at some point. But I spoke to Christian and Billy like a, I don't know, a week and a half ago, two weeks ago before his fight. And he said he was very, honest, Chris, he said, look, I'm looking to make as much money as possible, as soon as possible, and get out of this because I don't want to be 35, 40 years old fighting, and he's 28. And I applaud his honesty. I mean, I would feel the same way. Well, I mean, who wants to get punched in the head for a living until you're 38, 39,

hanging on for a payday. Unfortunately, we see that too often. But he's being smart about it, and hopefully he'll get the right fights to get out of the sport what he's looking to get. you know it's Canelo Alvarez's prerogative what he does with his titles I would mind if he just vacated all of them like he's the undisputed champion

at 168 there's there's no more prestige in it for Canello in fact the only thing that's really in it for him now is like paying sanctioning fees to hold belts when everyone knows you're the number one guy

at 168 like right if I'm Canello like maybe I can't keep one title, keep the WBC belts, you keep that Benavides stuff alive there towards the end of the year, or whatever he wants to do. But let the other belts go, which I think would free up the division to make some really compelling fights, because then you start talking about, all right, maybe you do Morel versus Mbili for the full title and the WBA's version. I would love, love to see Diego Pacheco and Christian Mabili at some point, you know, before the end of the year. Both those guys highly ranked by several sanctioning bodies.

that's a fun fight. Edgar Berlang is certainly in the mix, you know, for a world title shot at some point. That, you know, can I look and do what he wants. He's, he's the biggest star in boxing. I just don't know what the titles do for him anymore. He won them. He's defended them. He has no more, nothing more to prove. Like, you know, he's a four division world champion. He's got, he's the man. I, you know, I don't, I just feel like he should just walk away from these. belts and in the interest of boxing it would make it I think a little bit more uh it would open things up a lot more for some competitive fights right and it's like what josh taylor did at 140 chris now a lot of people there are certainly a faction of people who think that jack catarol beat him in their fight but he was still the undisputed champion when he started relinquishing these

titles and when he fought to afima lopez he only had the wbo title yet people still looked at josh taylor despite the outcome of the catar all fight as the guy in the 140s pound division, which is now why many people look at Tiafima Lopez as that guy, because he went in there and beat, he beat Taylor and convincingly. I mean, he's clearly the WBO champion. And, you know, I spoke to Jermaine Ortiz yesterday, and Ortiz said, yeah, he's the guy. I mean, he beat Taylor. Taylor was the guy. He's the guy. You know, Josh Taylor had made good money in boxing for sure, nothing near what Canelo Alvarez is making. And Josh Taylor had told me last year and many other people. He said, look, I'm not going to continue giving away 12% of my purse and, you know,

it's a four sanctioning body. Sometimes they negotiate the fees down, especially with a guy like Canello because Canello's purses are so huge. You start taking out 3% here, 3% there. It's a lot of money. So they might have seven figures he's given up, you know. Right. But my point is, you know, if you're giving away 1% as opposed to 3, it, it might make him do it for whatever reason. But like you said, Chris, no one's, no one thinks anything other than that he's the undisputed 168 pound champion. So for that reason, if he gave up the titles, who cares really, you know? He just keep the ring belt, you know.

No sanction fee there is keep the damn ring belt. I don't know if he wants to keep the belt that an Oscar company promotes necessarily. All right. It's going to be the only one. I don't know that that's going to be the one. Have Mauricio create a free belt for him, like the Canelo championship. I don't know, whatever. But like it's just, he's the man.

And I think, Chris, don't give Marius you any ideas, please. I did that. I did that. That was my mistake. So I saw an Instagram post this past week of Bud Crawford back in the gym. Looks like he's back in training. For what? I do not know, Keith, because we know now that Errol Spence had surgery to repair some kind of eye issue, cataract issue.

I believe he's how he framed it. That's undoubtedly going to keep him on the shelf for a period of time. And it's a conversation perhaps for another day. but I wouldn't mind if, you know, Aral Spence walked away. You know, multiple eye procedures, all the stuff has gone on in his career physically, the kind of things he's gone through,

you know, he doesn't have anything else to prove really either, you know, hopefully he's made enough money to walk away. But Bud Crawford is not ready to walk away. Bud Crawford wants to fight. And now with Errol Spence and that rematch off the table, at least for now,

um, it begs the question of where does, Terrence Crawford turn. Now, we've seen Bhutanis take to social media to call Errol Spence out. That's a good fight at 147. Teofima Lopez has decided to throw his name into the mix by criticizing, you know, doing the old, that old game against Bud Crop where he criticizes opponents, which didn't work out all that well for Errol Spence.

But, you know, we're now kind of in that weird spot. We wonder what's next for Bud Crawford. So what do you think the list looks like? What do you think the short list is going to look like for Bud Crawford? Who is still affiliated with PBC and, you know, is going to be looking for a big fight, probably sometime in the first half of the year. It's hard to say, Chris, because I don't know what to make of Spence at this point. Spence hasn't come out and said, I'm going to be out six months a year.

Yeah, I don't know. And if you don't know definitively when Errol Spence is intending to fight again, it's hard to say what the next move for Crawford is. As unfair and unfortunate as that is for Crawford, he's contractually obligated to this to this rematch. Now, there are, there is language in that contract that he might be able to attack, so to speak, because if we get into March and he doesn't have a fight plan, well, it would be terrible for Terrence Crawford coming off the career defining victory that he had in July to not fight for another year. That's not what he was looking to happen or to have happened for

him. So it's not fair to Crawford, but he is contractually obligated to this rematch. So if Spence wants the rematch and let's just say I can he says I can start training in two months and they can do the fight and jump just throwing months out there June or July or whatever not ideal for Crawford but he might be kind of forced to do it

he doesn't want that he doesn't see any and I understand where Terrence is coming from he feels like there's no real reason other than the contractual commitment there's no reason for this rematch to happen he decisively won and to your point about Spence Chris he took a brutal beating in that fight.

I would prefer to see Earl Spence go enjoy his money, go enjoy his ranch in Texas, enjoy his kids. He's been an elite level fighter for a long time, yes, made some mistakes in his personal life and driving under the influence and all that kind of stuff. But I think at heart is a good kid and gave a lot of himself to boxing, particularly in this Crawford fight, left a lot of himself in the ring, unfortunately, that night. So I would prefer to see Errol Spence just kind of call it a career. I don't think he's going to do that.

Do you have to wonder, Keith, let me ask you this. Do you have to wonder about Errol Spence's ability to get licensed at this point? Because the amount of damage he's taken to the above the neck area, let's just say, whether it's the car accident that busted up his jaw, knocked out his teeth. like we said, the multiple eye procedures now, that's legit. And tack on just the savage beating he took at the hands of Terrence Crawford. I think whatever commission is in charge of licensing here, which presumably would be the Nevada commission where a rematch like that would take place.

I think they're going to have to take a long and hard look at Errol Spence to decide if it's safe to license Errol Spence, not just in a fight, but in a fight against someone like Terrence Crawford again. Right. Well, if you're licensed, your license, whether you're fighting Terrence Crawford or Dickey Mouse, I guess. But I understand your point. Hey, don't tell Tony Weeks that. Don't tell Tony Weeks that.

Okay. Boy, how much time do we have for that? Jesus. We do not. But as it relates to Spence, though, I think he's going to maybe already he has even undergone a significant battery of tests at a high-level medical level. medical facility, which he did before after the car accident, after the detached retina. You know, Al Heyman does care about it. I know people don't know much about Al Heyman because he doesn't

speak publicly and all that kind of stuff, but he does care about these guys. And Spence is one of his guys that he really holds near and dear. Not that he doesn't look out for the safety of the other guys, but he really cares about Spence and was adamant about him getting all this testing done before he was licensed to fight after the other things that happened to him. So I'm assuming that would be the path that they take again to make sure that he's as okay as you as okay as you can be to fight after all of the trauma that he's been through over the last four years or whatever it is right that's why i said chris that i would prefer that he would walk away and not box anymore because you keep tempting fate man i mean you know something bad's going to happen at some point you just

don't want that i mean he's i think eros was he 30 33 34 yeah whatever he's 33, whatever is. You know, hopefully have 40, 50 years to live and have enough money to do kind of what you want with your life and everything. And you would just, I would hope that he would do that. I don't think that he's going to because these guys, you know, the competitor, he's not going to want to walk, whether he fights Crawford next or not, he's not going to want to walk away from what was a very good career before July 29th, having that as the lasting memory of people seeing him in the ring.

Now, it could wind up ending worse, unfortunately, but, well, yeah, that's the point. Like,

I mean, if he were to come back, if I'm advising him, it would be to come back in a low level fight first. If you're going to move up to 154 pounds, come back in a low level fight, see how you feel, see how you look.

If you think you still got it, okay, then we can reconvene and talk about Terence Crawfordoo. Look, it's still going to be out there. you know, looking for a big payday if Errol Spence represents that. But going, let's say they make this fight hypothetically for like September. I don't see this by going any differently at 47 or 54.

And coming off another eye procedure, it just feels like that, you know, you are throwing caution to the wind and you do stuff like that too often and you wind up in really dark places. And you have some bad things that tend to happen. And I hate to see that to happen to Errol Spence who had a great career. Chris, the thing is you're a thousand percent right from a physical standpoint to get him in the ring with a much lesser opponent than Terrence Crawford to see where he's at. But you can't do that to Terrence Crawford because he can't just sit around and wait for Errol Spence to go figure himself out in another fight. He would then have to get another fight. And then there are too many things that could go wrong if they fight other people from Spence's perspective that would then eliminate the rematch as a possibility.

he could lose, let's just say if he's completely shot or whatever, he could lose, or let's just say Terrence Crawford goes and gets another fight and that fight is Canelo Alvarez and he moves up, you know, three-way classes or four-way classes, whatever. And he loses. Well, then Terrence Crawford isn't the Terence Crawford who's coming off a career-defining destruction of Errol Spence. So it's a tricky game to play from a contraction. standpoint, so I don't know how they'll go about it. My best guess is they're going to try to

see if they can make it next. I hope someone talks Spence out of it, because I know why he wants the rematch, because he wants to prove that he's much better than he showed July 29th. At the same time, it's just based on what happened, entirely too dangerous and frankly unnecessary because Terence Crawford already proved whatever was wrong with Spence going into the fight. That's not Terrence Crawford's fault. So he's already proved his superiority over Errol Spence, whatever. You know, that's why it's almost like, Chris, they're going back to this. Not that Joshua was making any excuses or anything, but they're like, well, if Usik wins, you know, he gets his third chance at Usick. Yeah, Joshua gets his third chance at Usick.

Why? He already beat, how many, was he have to fight him seven times? He already beat him twice. Like, why does? Ben Davison is what they'll tell you, Keith. Ben Davidson. And I'm not trying to. I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm not trying to, Joshua, you know, He's a superstar, and I'm not saying he should never fight for a title again. That's why you almost hope that Fury wins from that perspective, so we could finally see Fury fight Joshua. But if Usik wins and then you're trying, how are you building an Usik Joshua 3? How are you doing that?

Based on what? It's tough. I mean, this is a conversation for another day, but I'm guessing my prediction is Joshua looks really good against Ngano because I think Inganu is, we'll have a much more difficult time with an Anthony Joshua than he did with a Tyson-Few. just based on styles. And I guess if you're coming off a three-fight win streak in 2023, a knockout win over France in Gano in early 2024, you play the Ben Davidson card publicly.

I guess you could sell it to a degree. Not to say that it's, I don't disagree with what you're saying there, that it's a far better scenario for everybody if Tyson Fury wins to do that fight. But I guess you could spin it as new and improved. Anthony Joshua. Look, he's looked very good recently, Chris. I'm not disputing that. I mean, he tore through Otto Walene.

Like, I don't think most people thought that he would. Not that he wouldn't win, but he wouldn't quite do it like that. So he deserves a lot of credit for that. And, you know, the Hellenius fight was what it was. He took the fight on less than one week's notice. That's Dillion White's fault. That's not Joshua's fault. So I don't want to, I'm not trying to criticize Joshua.

I mean, he's a star and he's a former champion. in and I would prefer to, if it were, I know it doesn't mean as much, but I would prefer to see him fight Herkovich just to see how he fares against the guy who can punch. And a guy who would be a big, well, I don't know how huge of a step up because he did beat Jolai Zhang, so narrowly, but he did beat him and Zhang is at that level now. So, but I would prefer to see Hergevich, Joshua, if it were me, just to see him fight someone different. I'd love to see Hergevich fight. I think it's a great fight. Both those guys can punch, both those guys have skill, I think that ends in a knockout one way or the other. I think that's a tremendous fight.

So if a Fury fight's not there, I would certainly rather see Josho go up against Philip Perkman. Just to put a button, though, on the Crawford conversation. Let's say Spence isn't available. Like, you know, he's not going to fight for three months, six months. Is there an obvious fight to make for, you know, for Terrence Crawford? Because you could go the Boots Ennis route. I mean, for the purest among us, that's a terrific fight, because Boots is arguably right there, the number two guy behind Crawford at one, 47. Teafimo, interesting fight. I think that would be a marketable fight because of how Teafima would would sell it. I think Devin Haney's an interesting fight too. I think Devin's going to have some

decisions to make now that top rank is signed Sando Martine because they're going to try to force a purse bid on that one. And I don't know who wants to see Sandoor Martine go up against Devin Haney for that WBC title. So if you're turns Crawford and let's just take Spence off the table, do you try to do a deal for Canello? Is that just impossible? at this point, or do you look at some of these lesser names that are interesting fights, but probably don't bring those same kind of paydays? Yeah, from Crawford's perspective, he wants Canello, and that's understandable. It's the biggest payday available for him.

He's coming off this incredible career-defining win, but he would have to move up three weight classes. I know he says he has difficulty making 147 as well, maybe not as much trouble as Spence, but he would prefer to move up if he could, too. he's not fighting Geron Ennis. He's already said it multiple times. He's not doing it. He said, what does he bring to the table for me?

Look, people can make of that what they want. They can criticize Crawford if they want, but he's not doing it. I mean, he's not, he's made it perfectly clear that. And he's got what, like one or two fights probably left tops? Like he's looking to cash in of these last two. Right. And he deserves that, right? I mean, he went and, you know, he did what he had to do to make the Spence fight happen.

He beat Spence. Now, of course, he's contractually obligated to the immediate rematch. But if it doesn't happen, I understand why he wants Canello. Tim Zhu, in my opinion, is a more winnable fight for him, and it would only require him to move up seven pounds. Tim Zoo seems open to that. If Crawford's willing to go to Australia where it would be a bigger fight, I think there's a greater likelihood that it will happen. And why wouldn't Crawford? If you're going to pay Crawford a lot of money to go over there, what is he?

Look, Crawford's a killer, man. Like he's going to, in his mind, he thinks he's going to go over there and just run right through Tim Zoo. He's not thinking like, if it goes to the cards, I might not have got a fair shake. He's not thinking of any of that. Crawford is one of the nastiest fighters with one of the more incredible killer instincts than that we've ever seen, right? I mean, knocked everybody out at Welterweight. Like he has a reason to believe that. Of course.

No, no, absolutely. And he's got that killer instinct where he wants to take people out. So I don't think he would, it might not. be the top choice to go to Australia to fight Tim Zub, but if you pay him enough, I don't think he would, I don't think he would shy away from that. And that's a good, that's a really good fight for him, because

he could fight Charlo, of course, but you need Charlo to go get a real win. I mean, you can't bring Charlo into a Crawford fight off of what happened against Canello. You can't do that. You can't build that fight. I think the legal issues with Charlo are going to sideline him for a little while to,

at least, you know, could be. Maybe not because of them specifically, but I'm not sure who's going to be looking to put him on. That's a good point, Chris. You know, well, well, that stuff is going on around him. So,

yeah, it'll be interesting to see what Crawford does. You know, he's back in the gym. I think he wants to fight. Will he wait for Spence? Does Spence want to do that fight as early as the summer? I don't know,

but that's something, I think that's certainly worth watching. Two quick things before I let you go. The AJ Nanganu fight was announced this past week for March 8th in Saudi Arabia. You know, the Ngano Fury fight was roundly criticized, in part because Tyson Fury was the recognized heavyweight champion in the aftermath that looked a lot different because, you know, Francis Ngatu looked really good in that fight, knocked Tyson Fury down, was highly competitive. That was a debatable decision, certainly at the very end. What's your feeling on AJ Ngano? Is it, do you have the same feeling you had going into Fury and Ganu?

Are you okay with it? Maybe because AJ is not a heavyweight champion. How do you feel about this fight going into it? Well, Chris, I don't think anyone sensible could have the same opinion of it going in that you had for Fury and Gano because people thought that in Gano didn't belong in the ring with Tyson Fury for obvious reasons. And he proved that he did. So if Joshua were somehow sidestepping a real fight to do this, maybe he would draw some criticism. But I don't really see how you could criticize him at this point because the deal was already in place for him to fight Deante Wilder. And I had said a million times on your podcast that I thought that Joshua really didn't want to fight Deonté Wilder and probably never would.

Turns out I was wrong about that because they had a deal in place for them to fight March 8th. So he was willing to do it. It's not his fault that Deonti Wilder went into the ring against Joseph Parker and did, well, I'm not really sure what he did. when he didn't try to win, that's for sure, with a huge payday on the line. I'm not really sure what he was doing on December 23rd, but he blew the Josh. He boxed. He like, I like, that was boxing. I'm just saying, but I like Malik Scott, but Deonti Wother was boxing like Malik Scott the boxer in there. And that's not. Well, I don't know what he was doing, but he, he looked like he was, he was wary of getting hit. That certainly seemed to be the case to me. Knew he was giving away rounds and

had always relied on detonating one of those right hands and knocking someone out. That just never happened. He just didn't, I don't know, he was uninspiring. I don't know. He just didn't, to some degree, look like he just wanted to get through the 12 rounds without getting knocked out. Whatever the case is it relates to AJ. You can't blame that on him. He was going to fight Wilder on March 8th. And now he wants to fight the winner of Fury and Usik, which we just discussed a couple minutes ago. So if he fights Angano in between who almost beat the undefeated WBC champion, who's, let's not get started on the lineal nonsense, but he's considered the lineal heavyweight champion, he almost beat him. So if Joshua fights him four and a half month, whatever it is, four months later,

I don't have a problem with that. If the Saudis are willing to pay all this money, you know, somewhere between $35 and $40 million altogether for Joshua and Gano to fight, good for them. It's particularly good for Ngano, man. I mean, this guy, think about this. And Eddie Hearn was saying this at the press conference the other day and last week and everything. This guy stepped into a sport in which he had never competed. And they're like, well, how about you fight Tyson Fury in your first fight?

And of course, the 10 million had a lot to do with him. He's like, yeah, sure, I'll go fight Tyson Fury, no problem. And then they're like, well, why don't you go fight Joshua? next. He's like, yeah, sure. We had guys in the heavyweight division that wouldn't fight Fury and Joshua over 10-year period. This guy's doing it in four months. I mean, close to him, man. Yeah, and look great. Part of it was the way Fury looked, yes. But at the same time, he put Fury on his ass and showed that he belonged in the ring. And showed more boxing skill than any of the crossover MMA fighters have up until this point. Chris, I got to give them credit,

there is no doubt in my mind that those videos that they very intentionally posted were just trolling everyone, right? And a lot of people bought into it. Like, is this guy this guy this? I think Tyson bought into it. Right. Is this guy this bad? Like, you know, and he ain't, he ain't that bad. That's for sure. No. He could wind up like, because no matter what happens with Joshua, I think there's still some viability to a Fury rematch. He could wind up in professional boxing, oh and three, and make more money than like 98% of professional boxers will in their careers. And good for him. And Chris, good for him, man.

I mean, the guy, the UFC underpays their fighters at the top level. So he's making up for, he's making up for lost time here in these fights. But I would expect Joshua to beat him, but I expected Fury to beat him too. So who the hell knows, right? What I hope happens though, Chris, and I'm sure you feel the same way. I hope that that Fury beats Usik and that's no foregone conclusion, but I hope that that happens. And then Joshua beats Ngano and we finally see Joshua Fury. Yeah.

Because we already seen the other. Which is the fight, no question. As far as Joshua Ngano goes, I have no problem with it because Inganu's stock right now is sky high. Like it's a completely different perception of Ngano going into this fight than it was going into the Fury fight. And if you're Joshua, there's an upside here, not just financial, because obviously that's huge. But if you knock out Francine Garo, you will have done what Tyson Fury didn't. And it gives you a little bit more juice going into a potential fight with Fury in the summertime. So no issue whatsoever with this fight ultimately being made.

Lastly, on that undercard, I got a guy that is making a pretty strong case to being as dangerous as anybody in the heavyweight division. Jay Lejean was going to take on Joseph Parker, who was coming off that win over, uh, over Deont wild there. I got to tell you, Keith, I spent some time recently with Zhang in your backyard in New Jersey. This guy's just growing on me, man. Like, I just hearing his story and, um, and seeing what he's gone through to get to this point. It sounds crazy to think that a fighter at age 40 is peaking. But I believe that about Jay Lee Zhang because he spent so much time in that Chinese amateur boxing system. He had such a hard time early in his pro career when he was working with Rock Nation and he wasn't getting the kind of fights he needed. He probably wasn't getting the kind of training he needed until Sean George rejoined his team in 2015, 2016, whatever that was.

Had that bizarre fight with Jerry Forrest that had more to do, I think, with Zhang outside the ring than anything that was going on with him inside the ring. then has a life and death fight with Philip Pergovic, who at the time was like the boogeyman in the division. Nobody wanted to fight Philip Bergevich back then. And then follows it up last year with back-to-back titanic wins over Joe Joyce, the latter of which was ridiculous, the straight right hand that put Joe Joyce down face first on the campus. This is a guy Keith at 40. Like, I'm not going to make the Foreman comparison because Forman was a different fighter, but Foreman was the kind of guy that was strong, durable, great power in his 40s.

I can see Jay Lejean having that type of run over these next couple of years because he's a Southpaw with a wicked left hand. Obviously, based on the Joyce second fight, he's got a wicked right hand. He's got a great chin. I think this guy's going to make some noise in 2024. I think Parker is going to be in for a tough night fighting in Jali Zhang. Chris, from a personal perspective, I'm just really happy to see this happening because Lou Dova told me, the late Lu Duva told me a long time ago, more than 10 years, almost probably 10 years ago when they signed, you know, Dino Duva, Luson was the frontman for the promotional company that signed Jalajong, Meng Fan Long, and two other Chinese prospects that they brought over together from the Chinese Olympic team. And they told me, they thought he was a future heavyweight champion. And Van der Holyfield was involved in the promotion because of his longstanding relationship with Lou and everything. And they

really, you know, they really thought that Jolajon could be a heavyweight champion. They firmly, firmly believe that. And it took a long time. And he took a meandering route to get to where he is right now. And some of it, frankly, Chris, was his fault. You know, I've been interviewing him for nine years or 10 over at this same gym. Patterson, New Jersey. Ain't the nicest place in the world in an industrial section. And Patterson and a gym, True Warriors boxing gym, he's been there for a long time. He didn't always put everything into training. And he used to smoke packs of cigarettes a day. A professional athlete used to smoke cigarettes.

It's insane. And he came from China where the air quality is not good to begin with. And he smoked. And I don't think he had the best win, I guess is the best way to put it. And they put him with a really good strength and conditioning coach, Mark Putten, Vink, a guy from Jersey who's worked with the New Jersey Devils and New York Rangers and everything. You know, respected guy in boxing and everything. I just don't think that he took the strength and conditioning part of it as seriously.

seriously as he should have. And that was reflective in his performances and why he didn't ascend to where he is now then. He has since taken that much more seriously. And Sean George, in my opinion, I've known Sean for a very long time. He's married to Lou Dova's granddaughter, Casey, was a light heavyweight contender himself way back when one of the most underrated trainers in boxing and has done a fantastic job with Jolay because he's very technically sound and he can really punch, as you said, Chris, not only with his left hand, but as you showed in the Joe Joyce rematch with that right

hook, he made to flatten the guy, you know, who had had an iron chin before they fought the first time. And I think he's a top five heavyweight now. And I think, you know, on the right night, he could pretty much beat anyone, which is pretty incredible, considering that he'll be 41 years old, I believe in the beginning of May. And he's just kind of ascending to his peak right now. But he, and Chris, you've spent time with him. You've been around him. He's six, six, like a legit 280. And when you see him with his shirt off, he used to. kind of look flabby and everything, he doesn't look like that anymore. No. You know, so he, so he's a sculpted. Now look, he's not Anthony Joshua sculpted, but but he's in much better physical

condition than he ever was. And I think that's been a big part of why he has finally realized his potential. And as you said, I think he's going to beat Joseph Parker. And then I think people are going to avoid him, frankly. Kudos to Parker, man. I mean, Parker goes and beats Deonté Wilder, who's the supposedly the most pulverizing puncher of this era. And then they're like, oh, how about you fight this guy next who, by the way, knock this shit out of the guy who knocked you out. And Joseph Parker's like, yeah, sure. Parker's like, yes, yeah, no problem.

So credit to Parker for taking this fight, but I don't see. Parker's got a lot of confidence right now. I mean, that partnership with Andy Lee has really worked for Joseph Parker. And I think activity has been a key to Parker success as well. Like he fought four times last year. So he's been his confidence has been. growing. When it comes to Zhang, like, if he winds up beating Joseph Parker in emphatic fashion, yeah, there'll be fighters that are avoiding him. But I remember when Eddie Hearn signed that

co-promotional deal with Rock Nation to promote Jaley Zhang. And all I heard back then was, can we get it to the point where we do a fight in Beijing? Like, how big would a fight with Jaili Zhang be in Beijing? They want to do it at that Beijing Stadium, the birds nest out there. And I can see something like that happening. Like, you know, Zhang, you know, and my reporting on him over the last couple of months, like his profile is growing exponentially, you know, in the last year or so over in China. So, you know, if he gets one or two more big wins or even just one or two more wins with his Parker one and maybe another one in the summer, you start talking at end of the year,

doing a big event over in China. There's going to be a lot of money on the table. At that point, I don't think guys are going to avoid him. I think they'll want that pay date to fight him. Right. And he's fought in China as a professional before, you know, they did bring him over there. for obviously a much lower level fights. And of course, there are so many people in China.

The thing is they're not conditioned to pay for sport, like pay-per-view type of sports, because I think the first fight against Joe Joyce was available on some sort of app or something. It's basically what it was, what it was, was the Chinese version of TikTok, I guess. And, yeah, it was available for a buck,

but from what I heard from... Isn't TikTok the Chinese version of TikTok? It's some social media app. No, no, I'm talking about the spying and all. I'm joking. Yeah, yeah, I got you. But yeah, it was available for a buck. But what I heard was it was pirated all over the place.

And at an odd time, too, right? Because they're, you know, the time difference in China and everything. But they do think that they could make real money out of it. And from what I was told by Jolet's team was that they did explore doing the Joyce rematch in China. And the financials, for whatever reason, didn't work out. And maybe Joyce didn't necessarily want to go to China to fight him for the room. I'm not really sure about that. But if what I do know is before all the Saudi money came along,

if there was a way that that fight would have been much more beneficial financially for Frank Warren to take it to China as opposed to having it in London, oh, he probably would have done it. You know, so but you're right, though, about bringing a fight there eventually. And I don't think you can underestimate, you know, the Chinese government wanting to put up money for it, if for no other reason than to showcase, hey, we've arrived when it comes. to boxing because China has had some sporadic boxing success. We all remember Zushimeng's run with top rank. Meng Feng Long had middling kind of run over stateside. But this would be a prospective heavyweight champion. And I think China would probably want to get behind that and

support putting a fight like that together. I think it'd be great. I mean, whether it's Joshua, Fury, Usik, whoever it may be, like, end of the year, a Zhang versus top contender guy for a heavyweight title in China would be a pretty cool event. That would be one of those spectacles. And Chris, I think you learned this when you spent some time with him. I think you went shooting with him. He went somewhere with him. We shot guns. We did keep. We shot guns. That was not my most comfortable interview. I will say that, being in that room. He's never even mentioned guns to me in all the times I've interviewed him, thankfully. Most of our interviews have been, maybe at a restaurant a couple of times, but

like at a gym, so there were never any guns mentioned, thankfully. But he's a fun guy, man. He is. He understands English better now because he's lived here in Bloomfield, New Jersey, practically for 10 years or so. So he understands English. He can speak it a little bit, but he's got a good sense of humor. I mean, this guy is a fun dude. I mean, Sean will tell you that. Kurt, his translator and his kind of liaison to the boxing side of it here in the U.S., he's an interesting guy with a pretty big personality. so hopefully people will get to see that. Yes, and thank you for that teaser, Keith,

because that story will be in the magazine next week. So subscribe and buy. I thought it. We filed it like six months ago. Jesus Christ. I know. It's a monthly magazine now, Keith. We've got to build towards these things.

I'm doing like to Olympic preview right now. So it's, you know, we're getting there. Keith always appreciate the time, my friend. Follow Keith Ideck on Twitter at IDAC boxing. Read all this stuff over at boxing scene. Always good to catch up, man. Same here, Chris. I appreciate it, man.

And when we come back, my conversation with Michaela Mayer. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions,

my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast. The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, This is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Michaela Mayer is the former unified 130-pound champion on Saturday.

She will attempt to become a two-division world champion, which takes on Natasha Jonas for a 147-pound title. That's a fight you can watch here in the U.S. on ESPN Plus, and Michaela joins me here on the show. Still, as we speak, out in Las Vegas. You were a Colorado person, Michaela, for a long time. Now you have fully embraced the Vegas, it seems like. Yeah, you know, after the Olympics, it seemed like Colorado was an okay place to stay because you had a lot of pros doing their camps out there, you know, Crawford,

of course, Stevenson. And so I would fall in with them and you had the altitude, which was a huge advantage. But slowly but surely, everyone's making their way over here to Vegas. And this has become like the capital of the mecca and where everyone's training. So I've done my whole year of camps here. It's my last two fights. But right before the last one, bought a house out here, made the move 100% because I knew this is going to be a big year for me. And I wanted to have, you know, all my ducks in a row and just everything that I need in one place and ready to go.

You post a lot of video of you training at that UFC performance center, and we see a lot of boxers working out there. How useful is a place like that for you in preparing for a fight? It reminds me of my days of the Olympic Training Center, where you just had everything you needed right there. So I can go there, I can get all the treatment that I need for the week with my physical therapist. And they sent me up with a great strength coach who I've worked with my last three fights. Gavin Pratt, love him, probably one of the best coaches. I've ever worked with and just one-stop shop. So I got all that, you know, my nutritionist, my nutritionist is out here, you know,

Coach K and DLX. So it really just got everything in one place. And yeah, I love the, the, you have CPI. It's been great for me to have. In Colorado, it's easy to avoid the trappings of the nightlife. How have you succeeded in avoiding the trappings of the Vegas nightlife? Yeah, not a lot of temptation in Colorado. especially where I was living up on the mountain.

It's pretty peaceful, but a little lonely out there. So this is actually, you know, you don't really go to the strip much when you're living in Vegas. And that really hasn't been an issue. But it has been a little bit more fun, you know, because there's more gyms here, different sponsors, more activity, more people throughout the gym. You know, I got a bigger team that I'm working with. So just more activity. It got a little bit slow sometimes in Colorado.

And one of the reasons I moved out here is because I want to make sure I'm so easy and staying fit and in the gym in between camps and, you know, we're doing that day and day out, you can become anonymous and boring. So this is, you know, switches it up and makes it more fun. How is your coach Al Mitchell doing? I saw you post a picture of him in the hospital recently. How was he doing health-wise? He's doing good. You know, he's had any problems and heart problems for a while now. And he just, you know, now that he's under my roof, he's hydrating properly and and eating right up on him. But when he gets by himself and over the holidays, I think he went a little too crazy on the sweet. So I got to keep his diet right and make sure he's staying hydrated

and all good. He was in and out on a couple of days. They just wanted to monitor and do all the tests and make sure he was, you know, nothing crazy. That's good to hear. You mentioned the U.S. Training Center and you're working out there. And I want to get to your fight, but I do want to get your reaction to the big news in amateur boxing, which was USA boxing announcing last month, that transgender women will be allowed to compete. You are a former Olympian. I know you still maintain ties to USA boxing. You recently commented for Peacock on a USA boxing event.

What was your reaction to these guidelines being posted because they did seem to generate pretty strong reaction from women in boxing? You know, my thing is when something like this comes about, you really have to look at the facts. I think a lot of emotion gets involved, but whether you support the LGBT Q plus movement or not, this is straight illegal.

You cannot have hormone therapy in sports. It's illegal. So by default, and I tweeted this, by default, trans athletes should be ineligible for competition, period, point in blank. It doesn't matter how you feel about the situation. And, you know, sport, we try so hard to create this evil level playing field, right? Classes and, you know, all these rules and guidelines. and this just completely disrupts that.

So there's so many factors that go into it. We can go on and on about it. I mean, going through puberty, there's really nothing we can do to replace what puberty does. Or let's talk about hand size, right? Or lung capacity or bone density. There's so many arguments. But bottom line, we want to make one argument,

hormone therapy is banned. And there can't be an exception because you're trans. So at this point, and I'm a supporter of the. community, but you have to choose between your sexuality, your sexual preference, and your sport at this point. You have to check the rights of the other athletes. You know, there's not right now a huge transgender women's boxing movement afoot. You're not going to see a run of transgender women in 24, even 2028, but one of the concerns that I've heard and read from women athletes is that it's more about,

10 years from now and 20 years from now when more trans women could be looking to compete. Is that something you think about, the next generation of women's boxing? Yeah, I agree with that. I'm sure there's a handful of athletes who are transgender who have a love for boxing and have maybe thought about it. And we may see a group of them try to step forward and do it. But for the most part, I think this is an issue for the next generation. also the younger generation because someone like me

I have the privilege of saying absolutely not I will not fight you I cannot support this and take a stance because I'm in position to do that you know but a young and up-and-coming boxer who has trained ass off for this tournament and spent money to be there and their dream relies on winning this fight they don't have the privilege of saying I'm not going to do it I'm going to take a stance because then they're jeopardizing all their dreams and everything they worked hard for So it's definitely up to us the women who are in power right now and have the position to speak up and say something for them.

Yeah, it's certainly going to be debated for weeks and months to come, that's for sure. All right, let's talk about you and let's talk about your fight. Your last fight was contested at 142 pounds, your first time fighting above 140. This fight against Jonah, is this at a full 147, correct? Yes. Okay, so let's talk about how you felt fighting last fight at 142. Did you feel like the same fighter in the ring fighting at that new weight? Yeah, so I knew I was moving up to 47 a little bit before the public did.

But I knew it wasn't something I can just jump and do because it takes a time to reverse what I did to my body. I was putting it down at 1.30 for my entire career, right? Most athletes move up over time. I never did. I stayed down. And so if I want to be a competitive 140th pounder, I needed time to reverse that and put on muscle and do the strength. conditioning. One of the reasons I've been doing my camps out here at the OCPI and just really focus on that and then taking that fight of 142 to help to help the process of getting up there,

not just making a big jump. So I think this last year was just like an evolutionary phase. I think I'm going to see everything sort of comes together at this fight at 147 because I've put the work in the last year to sort of build that muscle and get to this position. So yeah, I felt good in my last fight, but, you know, I'm not, this last year wasn't that exciting for me. Like, I don't feel like it was my best year. And I think a part of that has to do with there wasn't anything really on the line. You know, there wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't being challenged. I wasn't going up against, like, the names that really inspire me.

And these are the type of fights that I want to be in. And I think that me and Natasha are going to bring the best out of each other. Why did you target, why did you target Natasha Jonas for this fight? I think when you made the fight or pushed for the fight, there was already going to be a unification fight between, you know, Jessica McCaskill and I forgot. Sandy Ryan, she was going to fight for the other belts? But was Jonas the one you kind of wanted all along?

Has that been the fight you've been looking at for some time? No. No, to be honest. I mean, when I moved to 35 right after 130, I planned to fight Katie Taylor. Katie Taylor was tied up. I thought about, okay, maybe 140. do I go fight Shantel is tied up because with Katie, the rematch with Katie.

So Top Rank called me and they said, what do you think about going to 147 and fighting Natasha Jonas? We think we can get that fight done. And they knew I wanted to go to 47 eventually, but I planned on kind of moving up and taking on the other girls in between first. Couldn't happen.

This was the most immediate opportunity for me. So I said, all right, let's go out, let's do it. And they made it happen. It was easy to make the fight. So it was the easiest opportunity. What's your history with Natasha Jonas? Did you box her in the amateur? Do you have some background with her?

Never boxed the amateur. Never boxed her, no. Never sparred her. You know, she was the Olympian in 2012. I was the sparring partner for Queen, so I was out there. I watched her fight Queen at the Olympics in London. And she's always been around.

I sat next her at the World Championships because we were both getting our bronze medal or waiting to get our bronze medal. So we know of each other, but never gone up against each other. And I never thought I would. You know, honestly, like I said, I planned to fight these other girls

and move up to 47 slowly, but this opportunity just fell in the place, and I took it. She's also a Southpaw, and I heard you say this recently, that you've never fought a Southpaw as a professional. Well, obviously, in the amateur ranks, you probably fought a bunch of Southpaws,

just how it goes when you're fighting amateur boxing. But as you've been preparing for this fight, how big an adjustment has that been, preparing to fight a left-hander? It's just strategic, you know, and lucky for me I have a very strategic corner in Al Mitchell. So it's just, you know, punch selection, you know, certain things that I think are people are standard with when they want to fight a South file, like the standard way. And then there's also ways that we believe are going to work for us. So being a team that's really focused on strategy and coming from a technician, like,

like coach out. Yeah, it's been very important training for Southpaw, getting the proper sparring partners and all that. So we've been doing well and I feel confident. But you're right, I haven't fought once as the amateurs, but I'm feeling good about it. Is it important in a situation like this not to overthink it? Like sometimes when, at least when I deal with men's boxers and we talk to them about fighting Southpaws, sometimes I look at them and it's like, they're almost overthinking. It's like, well, we're going to make sure we were so prepared for the Southpaw that maybe they get away from what makes them great, what makes them who they are. Do you have to make sure that you're not trying to do too much different in a fight like this

and maintain, you know, the special fighter that you are? Definitely. You don't want to get caught up in whatever they're trying to do. And Coach Al said that in the beginning. He's like, don't worry so much for being Southpaw fighter just like you would fight anybody else. And so, yeah, not letting that intimidate you or get in your head. Definitely part of the game plan. So, yes, to answer your question.

I don't want to overthink it. Fourth fight now for you in a row for you over in the UK. Could you ever imagine that this was going to be kind of your path to to high-level fights, you know, fighting this off and over in the UK? No. I mean, no. It's been definitely different. You know, when I, coming off that, the loss, definitely redirected my career a tiny bit.

Like I said, it wasn't the most exciting me, but it was the setback that I had to take. My opportunity to get back in position. So obviously, things would always play out exactly they want them to. And my career is a little bit of an example of that. But nonetheless, I'm still in a really, like, blessed opportunity. I have, like, I've been still a great position, still have a great promoter. You know, I'm being moved really well. And so I got a lot to be grateful for the position that I'm in.

having done it so often now, is there a level of comfortability there, like that you know kind of what to expect when you go over there, whether it's something as simple as kind of the, you know, the weather or the food or whatever it is? Is it more comfortable now that maybe it would have been three fights ago? Yeah, I mean, first of all,

I've always had really good experiences going over there. Everyone's really nice. It's like in America, when you do certain things, it's like not everyone cares because America is so big that things just kind of get like brushed around and blah, blah, blah. Everyone cares so much in England. They care so much about everything that you do. And so you feel really appreciated there. And the fans, like, show up so hard for you. I think this will be for me, definitely at first, going to her hometown in the Liverpool.

I don't know exactly how they'll respond to me. Hopefully I'll have some fans there, and I do. I'm sure the crowd is majority going to, majority of the crowd is going to be rooting for that. it'll be something new for me, but, you know, at this point, I'll take whatever I got to take on my way to that ring. Because once that does, I know that all goes out the window and I'll do what I got do. So you're going for a welterweight championship in this fight. Is your new kind of objective to become undisputed at this weight class? Are you looking to do different things? I mean, what's kind of your mindset with your career at this stage? My goal is to make the biggest fights possible. So, yeah, the belts and the weight classes and all that all that comes with the territory but to me the most important thing is making the biggest fights possible against the top girls like that's how i that's how i wanted my career to go you know i don't want to have a year where inviting names that i don't inspire me i want to fight top girls and test myself um it only means to go after the other girls in the with the belts right at the welterweight division um that being said there's also a handful of

girls that don't have belts that are either in the welterweight division or on their way to the welterweight division. Chantel Cameron being one of them, who I would love to have a fight with. I have Lauren Price coming up. But then also, you know, San Diego, I love a fight with her. You have Jessica McCaskill would love a fight with her. I think all these are really, really big fights for me. So I'm open to either one of them. As long as the fans are excited about it, yeah, the belts are plus and everything, but the fans are excited about it. The money's there and it's a fight that we can both make. I want to do that. You know, one of those top women, of course, is Katie Taylor.

And I'll admit, I was surprised that Katie chose to vacate her lightweight titles and keep the ones she had at 140. I mean, I kind of assumed she'd go back to 135 and they'd make somehow find a way to make the Serrano fight happen, even though that fight feels snakebidden for a lot of reasons. I know. I don't know what hasn't happened. Yeah, but the fact that she kept is keeping her belts at 140. You two have been circling each other for some time. When you heard that and saw that, did that in your mind kind of reopened the door in a way to potentially get a fight with Katie Taylor down the line?

God, you know what? I didn't even think about that. But I, you know, physically I can never go back down to 135, 130. I could maybe go back down to 140. It would still be tough. I'm telling you, what I've done in my body let myself fill out, 40 would still be tough. But if I had to, if I would do it for a fight like Katie Taylor. But I didn't even think about that because in my head, she did that.

that not necessarily to start fighting at 140 and reigning 140 division. I think she did that strictly for the trilogy with Chantelle Cameron. And then I don't know what she'll do after that. You don't know. At this stage, she can call the shot. She can do what she wants. She may go back down and challenge Serrano because belts are no belts. That's still a big fight, right?

Who cares, regardless? People want to see it. So I don't know. I don't see her sticking around at 140 and taking on newcomers. But if she's here. Yeah, no, I don't either. I don't see her sticking around taking on newcomers. I do think that if she decides to stay at 140,

you're on a very short list of the biggest fights you can possibly make if you win this fight coming up against Natasha Jonas. So all of a sudden it went from like she's at 135. It's never going to happen to now she's at 140. If she wins a trilogy fight this summer, look, and I'm of the opinion that you're going to have to drag Katie Taylor kicking and screaming out of the ring someday. Like I think she's going to fight until the bitter end.

Good. I would love for that door to be better. open you know i've sort of had to shift my focus elsewhere because i could have found at 1 35 and wait and good thing i didn't because now they have a trilogy and i just would have been wasting my time so i had to make the move that was best for me but if she if she went to defending if she if she if she beat chantelle in the trilogy we don't know um there's two very good fights so but if she does and she wants to stick around and and open to fight with me yeah i'd absolutely love that but you know we'll see got to get through Tasha first. Before I let you go, I've got to get your take on the new bizarre rivalry

between Alicia Baumgardner and Clarissa Shields. This I didn't really see coming a couple of months ago to see these two going at it. There was a video posted recently. I'm not sure if you saw it as we're speaking of them on the same plane together. And Alicia is taking a video of Clarissa walking down the aisle and they're arguing with each other. Like, what do you make? You know, you fought Baumgartner, you're an Olympic teammate of Clarissa Shields, like what do you make

of this rivalry now burgeoning? I honestly think it's just Baumgartner trying to stay relevant. You know, she got herself into some shit with this doping situation. She's been able to manipulate the simps into, you know, believing that she's innocent, but we all know you can't take your own

hair or follicle test and clear your own name. So I think she's just trying to stay relevant. and what better way than to call out someone like Clarissa Shields. I mean, right now Palm Grunner is at 1.30, Clarissa has never fought below him or so. You know, we'll see. It seems like unrealistic to me right now. So that's what I think it's just bomb gardener saying don't forget about me. It certainly was a surprise.

That's for sure to see to see that rivalry pop off. Good luck, January 20th against Natasha Jones. A 147 pound title on the line. You can watch that in the U.S. on ESPN Plus in the afternoon. Michaela, always appreciate it, and good luck to you. Thanks. That's it for this week's episode.

My thanks to Keith Ideck and Michaela Mayer for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest. SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter Streeter Seidel

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.