The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Canelo-Charlo Fight Week

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Chris is joined by his DAZN broadcasting partner, Sergio Mora to discuss Zhang's beatdown of Joe Joyce, the latest with Conor Benn and if he should be fighting, and they preview the Canelo-Charlo fight, what can we expect from it this weekend. Later, the legendary Jim Lampley stops by to talk what he's been up to the last five years. It's all here and more. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hosted by S.I's Chris Manix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. This is Boxing with Chris Manix, part of the volume sports podcast. Network. We are live as we often are on AMP. Make sure to subscribe to the volume feed on AMP. My feed on AMP at Chris

Max to get the first listen of this podcast and all the volume sports podcast. We've got a loaded show for you this week. Jim Lampley, HBO Boxing's lead play-by-play man for decades. Boxing Hall of Famer. He joins me. And my first question for Jim is where you've been. It's been almost five years since HBO went out of business. We haven't heard much from Jim Lampley over that time. We talk a little bit about the state of boxing broadcasting, and of course we get into Canelo Charlo. Jim is doing some work for payperview.com during fight week.

It will be doing some work live on fight night for them as well. But first, there is a lot of news in boxing. We had a significant development in the heavyweight division last weekend. We had a interesting card in Orlando, Florida, this past weekend as well. And of course, we've got Canelo. against Charlo. Big fight this weekend on Showtime pay-per-view. Talk about that. And much more.

I want to bring in Sergio Mora, former junior middle-way champion, his own broadcaster, reluctant friend of the pod. People can't see this, but Sergio signed onto the Zoom under the handle of indentured servant, which is his way of protesting the amount of times he does this podcast without compensation. Is that fair to say, Sergio? you absolutely correct chris manix you take advantage of me and my service my expertise that i bring to the table everyone pays me for my time and my knowledge except you you try to pay me with alcohol but you're only you're only keeping that that broken cycle alive and like a fish i fall for it but

i need to stop doing it you need to start paying me you're rich you're a rich cheatscape everyone else here is getting paid your producer's getting paid i'm not getting paid let me tell you something paying for you in alcohol is oftentimes more expensive than what I like fine wine i like fine wine manix i like nice stuff if you're going to buy stuff i'm going to take advantage of it i'm sorry to say i like champagne we'll discuss real pain for my sham friends you're one of them all right um all right sir joe and i were in orlando to call the card headline by richson hitchins and jose's i want to get to that but first uh earlier in the day on Saturday in the U.S.

You had a fight between Jali Zhang and Joe Joyce over in the UK. This is a rematch of a fight that took place months earlier that was stopped after Zhang busted up the right eye of Joe Joyce. I thought it was going to be a competitive fight in the rematch. I mean, Joyce was stopped on his feet in the first fight, but he wasn't knocked out. Instead, we had a one-sided demolition by a man that is fast becoming one of the best heavyweights in all of boxing. knockout for Jay Lee Zhang against Joe Joyce. Jayley Zhang is an incredible story.

We've had a chance to call a few of his fights over the years. He's 40 years old. He was a silver medalist in the 2008 Olympics. He competed in 2012, turned pro in 2014 when he was in his late 30s and early 30s. And now Sergio, here he is. And at worst, Jay Lejean is the fourth best heavyweight in the world. Where did this guy come from? I mean, what is your take on the rapid rise of Jé Lejean?

Well, it came from China, and that's why we never heard of him. I mean, but he was an Olympian. Silver medals. Joe Joyce was a medalist as well. These are two big men with a lot of experience. So they have that backing. They have that pedigree. So it's no surprise that once they do face each other, we're seeing knockouts.

These men know how to punch. I was surprised that Zhang was able to do it so quickly and back-to-back against one of the best heavy ones. in the world. A big juggernaut of a fighter. I mean, these are massive men, man, six foot six plus, 250 plus. It only takes one punch. That's the good part, you know, for fans, for you, for me. It's going to end in a knockout. That's why everyone loves heavyweight boxing. But what you hate is these guys just don't take more than one punch mostly because they're not accustomed to getting hit by that big of a fighter. Another thing that I want to touch on here,

J. Lei Shang, if that's how you say his name, the Big Bang. He's 40 years old, and it looks like he's still in his prime. You know, it looks like he's still in his heavyweight prime. Like you still can knock out some of the best. Heavyweights have an advantage other fighters don't. They could fight until their late 30s. They could fight later into their career because they don't extend that much, expend that much energy. They can fight behind a jab. It ends in one punch, usually a right hand. That's what we saw with Jang, a big right hook from a south. Paul. One of the most dangerous weapons in any, any boxer, any weight class is a right hook from assault. I say it all the time because you don't see it coming from the left-handed stance and

look at how Joe Joyce responded to it. So these are all things that they're kind of novel. You know, that's the word novelty. 40-year-old Chinese heavyweight knocking out people. We've never seen it. I like seeing it. I didn't expect it, especially back-to-back against Joe Joyce. So bring on a bigger fight for John because he does. deserves it one, time is not on his side too, and he's with the right team in promotion and make a big, big splash, especially if this fight ends up being in China next. You know, if you watched Jay Li Zhang fight Jerry Forrest back in 2021, you would never have expected this to happen. I mean, the Jerry Forrest, yeah, the Jerry Forrest fight, in fairness

to Zhang was an anomaly. He came into that fight and he had a lot of medical issues. You know, I remember him telling me during that fight week that he had, or after the fight week, he had just one glass of water the entire time he was down in Florida. It had to be hospitalized after the fight for anemia, dehydration, a whole litany of issues that he had. So the forest fight, I think, made people believe that he was a lesser fighter. But there were a lot of reasons that fight went the way it did. He followed that up with a second round knockout of Craig Lewis,

a first round knockout of Scott Alexander. He goes over to Saudi Arabia and, in my opinion, beat Philip Perkovich. Like that was a very close fight, but I thought Zong, did enough to win, knock Turgovich down early in that fight, and loses a close decision. And then he gets back-to-back wins over Joe Joyce. Joe Joyce, you know, before the first fight with Zhang, was looked at as kind of the boogeyman or one of the boogeyman of the heavyweight division. The guy that nobody really wanted to fight because he had a lot of power and he had a great

chin. Well, Zhang busted up his face the first time and then faceplants him the second time. Whenever you see a guy, Sergio, get face planted. You know that's a big time knockout. So I guess my question now for you is this. At 40 years old, is Jean competitive against Tyson Fury? Is he competitive against Alexander Usik? Is he competitive against Anthony Joshua?

Do you look at Zhang as being on that level? He's competitive with all of them except Usik, because what beats age and when you're that big is being elusive footwork, fighting someone in angles. We're not accustomed to see this in the heavyweight division, except for Ussick, who is a cruiserweight coming up, and he has a Ukrainian boxing ballet way about him. I mean, he's a South Paul.

He has the Olympic gold medal. He cleaned out the Cruzeway Division. But he did it with his feet. He did it with footwork, just like Lomanchenko. They have their own lethal style of fighting, and they get in angles, and they batter you from every which way. It feels like you're getting jumped by three or four boxers.

That's what it's like to fight guys like that. So whenever you're dealing with size, Mannix, You don't beat size with size. That's why with these big men, they fighting each other, they don't really know how to react to their power because they're not accustomed to fighting another 6'5-250-pound fighter. They're accustomed to fighting the Jerry Forrests of the world, 6-4-1. And, you know, credit to Forrest, he did his thing there.

But, yeah, normally 6-2, 6-foot-3. That's a normal heavyweight, 6-4 maybe. 6-foot-6, I mean, and plus, yeah, anomaly, I'll use your word. It's unheard of. So these guys aren't accustomed to fighting each other. They're accustomed to being the big man and having the size advantage. So they're now just barely growing accustomed to that. Zhang, on the other hand, like I said, he has that Olympic experience.

So he's fought every which way, every which style. So did Joe Joyce. But they didn't fight each other in the amateurs. They didn't fight each other in where it should matter. Because one punch is only going to change them. We saw it with Jean. I mean, the big puncher, both hands. Both hands.

And it comes from that South Paul style. so you don't even see that right hook coming. It was vicious. Yeah, he broke the face of Joe Joyce with straight left hands in the first fight. They knocked him out with the right hook. I mean, he has got a great diversity of skills. There's no question about that.

Fury Ucic, I think, is likely going to happen sometime next year. I think they've made enough progress in those talks to make me believe that's going to happen. Anthony Joshua's got a plan. It doesn't sound like that plan includes fighting J. So I guess the question is, what is the big fight out there for him? And one fight I'd be really interested in seeing Jayley Zhang in is against Jared Anderson. Jared Anderson, of course, undefeated heavyweight with top rank. Right now, Zhang has some kind of contractual agreement

with Frank Warren. Frank Warren, of course, does a lot of business with top rank. They've got an alignment there. I would love to see Zhang against Jared Anderson. Jared Anderson. Jared Anderson has been looking for a big fight. Jaley Zhang has an interim title at the heavyweight division. He's based in Jersey, so he's got some U.S. support there. You do that fight in New York, Sergio. You could draw a lot of Chinese fans there, do a good gate. I think that's a perfect fight. Jared Anderson trying to take the next step to a championship level. Jali Zhang wants only big fights. I think I'd like to see Anderson against Jean. Yeah, that's a good fight. I got a better one for you that I think deserves it a little bit more. Michael Hunter. I think Michael

Hunter deserves this fight a lot more. He's looking for a big fight. This guy's given Ussick difficulties. He's already put himself in position. Where's Michael Hunter in all this? He's an undefeated fight that because everyone fits. I mean, if you're talking about Anderson, Michael Hunter should be above that. So give me, give me that fight instead, the bounty hunter. Yeah, I can see, look, Michael Hunter, I agree with you, deserves to get a fight. He has been kind of blackballed, you know, in the boxing industry. He's been chasing fights publicly on social media. And I firmly believe, like, if you make him a reasonable offer, he'll fight anybody. I know he's right now, he's after a rematch with Martin Bacoli. But I'm just saying for,

from a money perspective. Like, I don't know what Michael Hunter gets Jailie Zhang. Like, I don't know what it accomplishes for him. I think Jared Anderson accomplishes a lot more. If Jailie Zhang can go out and beat Joe Joyce, who's looked at as, you know, one of the boogey men over in the UK, if he comes to the U.S. and knocks off arguably the top heavyweight prospect,

that makes some sense to me. I think there's way more money in that for Zhang, which at 40, you know, Sergio, that's what he's into right now. You know, he is all about money at this point. So I'd like to see Jared Andrews. Yeah, I just don't think, I don't think, I don't think Top Rank will do it, though. I don't think Top Rank will put Jared Anderson in with them. I don't believe that they would do that.

Well, there you go. Then that's not going to happen. But whoever fight, whoever, uh, Zhang fights nets, it better be a big name for big money. And it better be someone that's willing to go to China because he doesn't have that many fights left in them. I don't think we see, uh, Jali Zhang become a heavyweight champion. I think he, at 40 years old, it's way too late. I mean, he's not George Foreman. and don't even begin to compare him as that.

He's 40-year-old man, and he's going to have issues with any top heavyweight, any top heavyweight unless you match him up properly. So whoever you match him up properly with next, it better be a big money, and it better be one of these planned for a last fight. You have to see it that way. Not a swan song type fight,

but hey, this may be his last fight. You think he's in a cash-out position right now? Absolutely. You put, hold on, but you put Zhang, you put Zhang in with AJ right now. I'd favor Zhang in that fight, honestly. You know, Zhang, I don't think you could knock Jay Lee Zhang out. I don't believe that. I think we've seen enough against big punchers like Hergovich and Joyce to believe that he can handle the power of anybody in the division. You have to be ready to take brutal punishment over the course of 12 rounds to hang with Zhang.

And I'm not sure AJ can do that at this point. I'd love to see it, especially over in China. I don't think I'm not sure he can do it. I don't think he fights AJ, but I think he could fight someone else under AJ. why not Wilder? That would be an, I mean, incredibly entertaining fight. And you could sell that fight around the world. Who wouldn't want to watch two big men like this?

And Wilder, with that big right hand, personalities being different, so different. I mean, Wilder would do the promotion. Jean would be, you know, bring the billions of Chinese fans. That's a perfect matchmaker's fight. And both these guys need a big knockout and you're bound to get it. Both these guys are susceptible defensively.

We're bound to get a knockout. let these big six foot six plus men one of them one of them's going to get knocked out brutally for the sake of the sport and we're all going to be watching and loving it that's another great fight too i'd love to see it get made but again i think wilder is still trying to make a fight against anthony joshua i'm just trying to be realistic with what could be next for jong and if jared anderson i think is going to fight coming up in the next couple of months if he is available early next year i would love to see anderson against jang in new york early next year all right let's go back to the card that we were on this past weekend in Orlando, Sergio.

Connor Ben made his return. 17-month layoff. It returns against Rodolfo Orozco and gets a 10-round United States decision win. This fight was contested at 154 pounds. There's certainly a lot of controversy around Ben coming into this fight. The idea that he should be fighting was in question. Ben, of course, is not past all the issues. issues he has that date back to the multiple positive tests for clomophine in the buildup to the fight

against chris eubank junior he was technically clear to fight like that is true the state of florida had the right to license him because there was no suspension over in the u.k and the association of boxing commissions after receiving a negative vata test took connor ben off their submit list so he was technically allowed to fight should he have been fighting until his issue issues with the UK were resolved, that's more of a subjective question. There are a lot of people mostly in the UK that believe you should have to deal with the British Boxing Board of Control before he gets back in the ring. Connor Ben, his team say, look, we want to deal with the British Boxing Board, but they appealed the decision by the National Anti-Doping Panel to lift the

suspension, and there is no date yet for that appeal. So we got to get out, we're going to stay active, we've been out of the ring for a long time. Where do you come down on that, Sergio? Should Connor Ben have been fighting last weekend or should he have dealt with his issues in the UK first? You think 18 months being out of the ring in the prime of his career isn't punishment enough? He already dealt with it. I mean, how long do you want this young man to, you know,

be punished for something that, I mean, yeah, it's a terrible thing what happened. But he's making a case for himself and there's a case against him. I'm not a judge or jury, nor am I going to attempt to date. defend one side or the other. But whatever did happen is he already served his punishment, not only by the court of law, by the court of public opinion, but the court of law and the commission.

He hasn't fought. So they had to go around the world to find a loophole. And it took, of course, Florida to give them sanction that. Texas probably would have done it. Any other state would have done it. Another country would have done it. But it happens all the time. Whenever you have a name and so many people hate that name and you can't get a license, you're bound to find a license somewhere. there's a loophole whether he did it or not like I said I'm not gonna touch on that that's up to you and other writers and other opinions me as a fighter at the man fight man he's 20 what he's in a miss 20s he's in the prime of his career attention popularity uh prime money making years you don't punish that man for for how long do you want him to punish for

how long do you want him to be on time out it's ridiculous I mean was it proven yes did he get busted, yes, but did he get, did he say his peace? And was it beyond a reasonable doubt? Was there other people that could say, maybe that could happen? I mean, I'm not, I'm not a judge of jury, man. And don't try to hang me for my opinion either. All I'm saying is, if he did it, he served his punishment. If he didn't do it, man, the kid needs to fight. The kid needs to make a living. It was emotional seeing that interview that you and him had because I was sitting in on it and I was just feeling for him, man, because I've been stretches of in, activity longer than that purposely not because I couldn't fight because I like fun but it sucks man

being inactive like that because when you come back you don't have that confidence you don't have that timing you don't have that that that that killer ability that I'm going to go walk straight through this guy it's I got to get past the cow webs do I have enough conditioning to go to the end how are people going to look at me so many things running through your head Ben already got his punishment man let them move on let them continue you on his journey, right or wrong, whether you think he did or not. Doesn't matter. You're not the fighter. You're not the one having to make a living. That's it. Let him fight. And he did. I think what people want is an adjudication of this. They want a public resolution to this one way

of the other. As far as punishment, I tend to agree with you. Even if Connor Ben did what he is being accused of and what there are positive test results for. He has effectively been suspended for a year. The positive tests came to light for the Chris Eubank Jr. fight in what late September, early October, I think it was late September of 2020, and Connor Ben returned to the ring in late September of 2023. That is effectively a one-year suspension. For some context, you look at Canelo Alvarez when he tested positive for Clenbuterol,

the Nevada commission gave him a six-month suspension for that first offense. More recently, Michelle Rivera tested positive for multiple banned substances. He was given a six-month suspension as a result of that. Generally speaking, at least in the U.S., these yield like six-ish month suspension. So Conor Ben, in a way, exceeded that. He wasn't formally suspended, but he exceeded what the usual punishment has been for him. I think people just want to see resolution. They want to see Connor Ben, the British Boxing Board of Control, the UK anti-doping agency.

They want to see all these parties sit down in a room and get on the same page one way or the other, where there is a statement, there is a punishment, and we're all moving on from there. So I can certainly see both sides of it. You know, I can certainly understand people saying Connor Ben shouldn't fight until the UK stuff is resolved. But at the same time, in your opinion, what do you think? Look, I was fine with Connor Ben fighting for two reasons. One, I do think he has served his time. And I've said that on previous podcast.

I also think while the BBBOC and UKAD have appealed the decision to lift the suspension, which was lifted back in July, there's no date for that appeal. And if you're kind of sitting out there in limbo, I think you have the right to kind of move on. If you are cleared to fight, I hate using that phrase because Eddie Hearn used that all the time. But if you are cleared to fight, you have the right to do it. I mean, Florida was going to license him. The associate in boxing commissions didn't suspend him. You have the right to do it. So if he's eligible and does not have a date for that appeal, I think he has the right to fight. Now, I take a lot of issue with some of the stuff that Connor Ben has done,

specifically how his stories seem to be shifting. And he has been unwilling to be as transparent as humanly possible. He's got this 270-page report. He's got this 270-page report. very few people have seen it. He was standoffish with the British boxing board with UKAD early on. He wasn't you know, kind of he wasn't revealing all his information to them. Like there's, there was a lot of missteps along the way. But the reality is, Connor Ben was suspended for, effectively suspended for a year and he was eligible to fight in Florida. So I didn't, I just didn't have an issue with him getting in the ring on that, especially since he was Vodot tested before and I believe after and took all the Florida tests that went along. with it. So I didn't have an issue with that. So listen, one more more. One more thing.

The perfect example in, in whether right or wrong and, and people wanted a fight or not to face, Muhammad Ali, right? When he didn't want to go to the, uh, well, I wouldn't go there. I wouldn't go there. Listen to me, three and a half years. I'm not comparing the two. I'm just saying that was a face of nobody wanting him to fight because of whatever, whatever he did, drab, grab dodging. It wasn't being an American. But looking back, he looked at like a hero, but three and a half years out of his prime, man, and he had to go to Atlanta, Georgia to go fight, what, Jerry Corey? I mean, this, you took the greatest fighter of all times prime.

So all the people that were against that, and now if you look back, Ali's a hero, but all the people in that time, they're like, what the hell, man, he shouldn't be fighting, he's anti-American, this, this, that, it's wrong, man, there's two different sides. And if the court of law, if you find a loophole, I don't care where in the world, If you find a loophole and if you're on parole and you're able to be free, you do what you got to do to survive. You do what you do to get paid,

especially when you're a young man in your prime because there's no looking back in retrospect saying, oh, well, maybe that was the best thing for him then. Or no, no, no, no. It doesn't work that way. You got to move forward and that's what Connor Ben did. I think there are zero similarities with Ali, just to be clear. I don't, I mean, I understand what you're saying, time off. I just said the face of suspensions.

That's the one that people think. But Ali was a victim in a way in all that. I don't think Connor Ben. Not at the time. He was hated. He was hated by his own people. He was hated by his own people. That's all I said.

What he was doing was standing on principle at that point and stuck by it and it cost him many years of his. Religious principle. Look, Conor Ben, from what I understand, Conner Ben has had multiple opportunities to take a slap on the wrist from the British Boxing Board. has not taken it because he will not admit that something like this, you know, what was was in his system by choice or, you know, even, even gotten his system in a way that he didn't know. I mean, he's now saying it was contaminated eggs. We told me in our interview,

but, you know, my understanding is Connor Bent's had a few opportunities to take a slap on the wrist as not taken. That's why this thing has been dragging out as long as it has. But I do want to talk about what he looked like in the ring, Sergio, because this was Connor Ben's first fight at 154 pounds. He fought a complete unknown in Rodolfo Orozco. He had a lot of knockouts on his resume, but no big time opponents, no even B level opponents, at least ones that we know of. He goes the distance with Orozco, hit Orozco with everything but the kitchen sick in that fight. Through all his power shots, nothing seemed to phase, or very little seemed to phase Rodolfo Orozco. What did that tell you about Connor Ben and his future in weight classes

above 147 pounds? I think Conner Ben looked really, really good. Even without the knockout, I think he looked sharp. His legs looked good. He didn't look rusty. It didn't look timid to get punched. He was explosive. He was going for the knockout.

He was just in there with a fighter that had, what, 38, 39 fights, a Mexican that was a lot bigger, rehydrated maybe 20, 25 pounds heavier. And he took a big shot. Odovo came coming. He was like Frankenstein. During the telecast, and I hated to bring up Antonio Margarito's name, But that's what Margarito looked like against Cotto. You know, Cotto was a smaller man.

Margarito was a bigger man, and we all know what happened in the first fight. But in the second fight, Margarito was late dangerous in that fight, and Conabino never let Orozco get dangerous. So I got to give him credit for that. He boxed the hell out of him. He hurt him, especially with the body. He just couldn't take him out of there. Just because he couldn't get the knockout, what does it matter?

He still got the rounds in. He still looked good. He still got paid. And now it's on to the next one. Hopefully the next one's a big one. a big fight, the U-Banks fight, and put all this behind them. Because what, like my trainer used to say, you know, no matter how bad fans hate you and don't want to see you fight, knockouts take care of everything.

A knockout, short-term memory's gone, we want to see you again. And this kid, you know, Connor Ben, is exciting to watch and he always goes for the knockout. He just didn't get it against a big, strong Mexican. And you know Mexicans got that chin, Mannix. Roscoe can take a punch, man. He really can. I was amazed to see on Boxer. that he started his career at 108 pounds.

I didn't believe that because he was at least 165, maybe even high as high as 170 in the ring. I mean, he was a big dude. Look, I don't think Connor Ben should be fighting above welterweight. I don't. Look, those guys looked like they were two weight classes apart in the ring. They did. And Orozco, for all his durability,

if he had a little more firepower, that fight could have been a lot different. It could have. And if Connor Ben keeps up this, assent if he keeps talking about fighting guys who are the best at 154 and 160. Well, that's Chris Eubank and Adi Golofkin. Who knows what fights he could be pursuing? One of these guys with more firepower is going to catch him.

So I think it's a mistake for Connor Ben to go above. I think a lesson should be learned there. I think a lesson should be learned there. I think he should be fighting at 147. I know how much money there is at 160. But you think about what Eubank and Ben are going to look like in the ring together. Like Eubank's, you know, he's a guy fought at 168 for a while too. he's going to be a big guy when he rehydrates.

Against Connor Ben, who is a regular-sized welterweight, I don't know. I mean, I think Connor still has, you know, great power in both hands. He's got good timing, good speed. But in those higher weight classes, Sergio, he's going to have a problem knocking guys out the way he did at welterweight. And, you know, against guys with more pop, they're going to come back with something big and we'll see if Connor Ben can take it there. So my takeaway from him in the ring was stay welterweight.

See if you can conquer that division. Look for big football. fights at Walterway, whether it's going for titles. No, man, I disagree because you got to remember I became a champion at 154. I didn't have power. I didn't knock anyone out of 1504. You went down, though. I understand that, but I still fought a great fighter.

And Vernon Forrest was able to pick up a strap, you know, at 154, 154, with no power. I didn't have power of 154, 160. I out box guys. That was my ammo. You know, you're giving the gifts that you have. Connor Ben, one, he's still growing. Two, he's still, he's still a muscular guy. But, yes, he's short and he has that lean, dense muscle.

So he's never going to grow into a full-fledged middleweight. That you're never going to see. He's a muscular, good-looking explosive fighter, but you can win off of explosive power. I mean, accumulation. It won't be pop, and you're going to hurt him. It's going to be accumulation of power. Kind of, my name will pop,

Andre Berto. Andre Berto was a small welterweight. He was a small welterweight, but he was so compact that he's explosive, and he was able to pick up a world title 147 because of that explosive pop. You know, I think Conor Ben could do the exact same thing in 154. All the guys are going to be bigger than him, like you said, but this guy's a hell of a fighter. He knows how to power box.

And just because he doesn't bring that power to 154 just yet, he could still be explosive enough to bust guys up and still get wins. And TKO wins at that. I'll tell you what, the money for a UBank fight is going to be way too much to pass up. So, sure, take that fight if you must, if you're Connor Ben. but as your career progresses after that, win or lose, I think Connor Ben should be at 147. I always think there's good fights for him at 147. You've got some, you know, belts that are likely to be vacated there.

Boots Ennis is sitting there at 147. That's a great fight. Alexis Rocha, you know, could have a title at 147 soon. That's an excellent fight. You know, you've got some opportunity there if you're Connor Ben to collect some titles and have some significant fights at a weight class that you are better suited for. To me, it's a simple. Take the money.

Okay, let me live. One more. One more thing. I love those fights. Virgil here, Virgil Hunter, Virgil Hunter, Alexis Rocha, plenty of big, young, strong names. It's not going to be for a title, but it could be an eliminator and they'll be for big money. So yeah, he is going to stick around, stick around for the money. I mean, like, look, I think not to get off track here, but I do think that there's no chance that Terrence Crawford defends those titles against anybody not named Errol Spence any time soon. I don't think Spence is going to take it at 147 either. So, you know, these will be fights for,

least vacant belt that will eventually become full belt. So Connor Ben can fight for titles right now at 147 if he chooses to go that path. All right, top of the card, Sergio, we had Richardson Hitchens, a young prospect in the matchroom stable taking out Jose Zepeda, a 12-round decision, lopsided decision for Richardson Hitchens, who is a terrific boxer. There's no question about that. Jose Zapata had three losses on his resume coming into that fight, but he had never been dominated in the way that Hitchens dominated him. There was a terrific. There was a lot. There was a lot of, there was a There's no question about Richardson Hitchens' talent coming out of that fight. The questions came about whether or not he needs to be more entertained.

This is something that Eddie Hearn said to him in the ring. You know, right after the fight said something to the effect of you got to give it a little bit more, especially towards the end of that fight. As you said, you were a guy that didn't win with a lot of power. Do you believe Hitchens has to do more at the elite level? Does he have to? No. And I think Hitchens needs to make a decision.

and for now he made the right decision. He outboxed and it was a shutout, man. He completely dominated somebody that's never been dominated like that before in a dangerous Saupol in Zepeda. Jose Zepeda is a three-time world title challenger. You got to respect that. He's been in there with champions. Hitchinson, on the other hand,

he is barely crossing over into a prospect to contender. And he, I mean, he completely whitewashed his fight. It was a one-sided no-hitter. Like I said on the telecast, the only thing more impressive than getting the knockout, which is fun, which is great. People are going to remember you. It's pitching a shutout. You know, pitching a shutout is just as impressive because it shows that you're not going to relent

and you have the conditioning and the concentration to never let up. Never take your foot off the gas. Man, that is impressive for a guy that knows what they're watching. I'm a purist, so I'm going to appreciate the purity. Now, he needs to make a decision to answer your question. And Richardson Hitchens needs to make a decision. Does he want fans on his side that you actually want to take opportunities to start being the headliner, maybe making more money, but he's going to take more shots? Hey, he can take that, he can do that because he has the talent to take more chances.

Or is he going to keep doing what he's doing? Dominate, put it on cruise control, and go the distance. If he has a couple of those fights, he's going to end up being like Erislandi Lara. No one's going to want to fight him because he's too damn good. Or you can go the other route. You can take some chances like Terrence Crawford and you can go switch hit and beat the hell out of these guys and get the knockout. It took a while, many fights for Crawford to get to the big stage and the big money. Because one, no one wanted to fight him.

And two, he can be offensive and defensive and he could switch hit. So you got to make, Hitchens needs to make the decision because he has the talent of both these fighters. He just needs to understand that there's the boxing, which he's a purist at, and then there's a boxing business. So let him make a decision for himself. So Richon Hitchens is around the same age as Shikor Stevenson, but he's something of a protege of Shikor Stevenson. They have been in several camps together. They are close. In fact, I'm reasonably sure at this point, Sergio, that it was Shikor Stevenson on the phone

with Hitchens co-trainer who was on the ring apron, relaying instructions to Rich Stichs. I'm reasonably sure that was Shikor Stevenson. I think Shakur is a good template to follow if you're hitched. Because Shakur, early in his career, when he fought at 126 and a little bit at 130, he was more boxer than puncher. He was defensive-minded, he pot-shotted you, and he cruised to wide decisions win. It was only as Shakur's careers progressed in the last couple of years, that he's added the power to his game, the finishing aspect to his game.

He's become more aggressive, especially when he has guys in a little bit of trouble. When Hitchens had Zepeda in trouble in the latter stages of that fight, when he had Zepeda defeated. I mean, you saw the body language of Zepeda from the 10th round on. He knew he was out of this fight. He knew there was no way he could beat this guy, especially when he's fighting the way he's fighting. That's the opportunities I'd like to see Hitchens take to step on the gas. There were a couple times, Sergio, 10th, 11th, 12th rounds, where you saw Zepeda a little bit on the ropes, a little bit tired. If Hitchens had stepped in there and started to throw some punches, because he does have good power. This is not a guy without power. He has real power. If Hitchens had stepped in then and thrown

some shots, I think he could have gotten some paid out of there. And that to me is the next evolution of Richardson Hitches. I don't expect him to change his game, become a brawler and just start throwing right hands recklessly. I expect him to fight that way. But when he sees opportunities in the middle or the second half of fights, he's got to take him. He didn't take that. He didn't take that opportunity that I thought was there for him against Jose Zepeda. As he goes forward, I think he's going to start to take him because it's going to be very hard for Matrum to get guys to want to fight this guy. Right now Hitchens is inside the top seven in two of the four sanctioning bodies. The only way he's going to get a big fight is if a mandatory challenge is called

and he's into it that way. Because otherwise, nobody in their right mind is going to sign up to fight that guy. So I'm fine with him fighting this particular style. It's just when you get to the latter stages and you see a guy hurt, you got to jump on him. Hitches didn't do that in the fight against Sipeda. He's got to do that moving forward. You and Todd Grisham said the exact same thing when we were calling Devin Haney fights. Every single time Devin Haney fought on our card, one of you guys will bring up, does he need to take more chances, does he need to go for the knockout? He has guys hurt and he lets him go. He's on top of the world now. Maddox. He's number one. He's pound for pound ability. This guy's getting millions and millions of dollars. His dreams have come true.

Doing the exact same thing he's been doing. Boxing all the way to the finish line. He's still not knocking him out. What changed? Now everyone, now he's a top dog. Nothing changed. So I'd argue Hayney goes for it more than Hitches does. But he's not getting it. And he has all the ability, all the ability in the world to go after it. He doesn't go after it. We don't know that yet because he hasn't fought those type of fighters. All I'm saying is he's not exciting. So excitement only goes a certain way. You know, a boxer has a short window to make a lot of money,

to make the most amount of money in that short amount of career. One hiccup and you're taking two or three steps back, not only in your career and in money. You don't want to do that. Look, James Kirkland and Alfredo and Gulu, two of the most exciting prospects coming out of HBO. Everyone wanted to see it. See him fight this guy, this guy, this guy.

Where are they now? never picked up a world title. They didn't make the money they should have, but they almost killed each other for the excitement of you and everyone else. Where are they now, Mannix? Where are they now? You think excitement got them to where they should have gone? Hell no, man.

Excitement. Forget about it. Make a career. Well, there are opposite sides to that argument. I mean, Gennady Golofkin had a phenomenal career. He was a very exciting fighter in the ring. Arturo Gotti had a phenomenal career. He was a very exciting fighter in the ring.

For every example you use of heavy-handed guys that have had short careers, I can certainly give other examples of guys with pop that had long careers. And again, I'm not talking about Hitchens becoming Kirkland or becoming Angulo. I'm talking about when you see an opportunity, go for it. Don't just go in with a game plan that you're going to follow no matter what. If you see a guy that has looked like he's given up, and I thought Zepeda 10th 11 round looked like he had given up. There was a moment, I think they were right in front of us where Zepeda looked,

rocked, he looked hurt, the referee was nearby. I would have liked seen Hitchens jump on Zepeda then. With those opportunities, you got to take him. If they're presented, you got to take him. You can't just cruise these decisions when guys are giving you a chance to stop them. That's my only point on that. I think he's a great fighter. It's going to be very tough to beat with that style. But when you have an opportunity, go for a knockout, you got to go for it. All right. Last thing I want to get to, Sergio, because we have a huge fight this weekend. Undisputed 154 champion, 154 pound champion, Jermel Charlo. We'll be moving up two weight classes to face Canelo Alvarez.

I know I'm going to get called a hater for this, but I have been on record as saying I don't think this is a competitive fight. Charlo is a junior middleweight jumping up to super middleweight. And yes, he's got a little bit of height on Canelo. We know that. Everybody does. But he's jumping up two weight classes. He's coming off a 17-month layoff.

And he's coming off an injury that cost him most of those 17 months. A hand injury. That was pretty significant. I don't see a pathway to victory here, Sergio. I've watched Charlo's last two fights against Brian Castanio. Yes, to his credit, got the knockout against Castanio in the second fight. But everything Castanio does, Canelo does five times better. Like the pressure, the power, you know, forcing a fight, cutting the ring up,

all these things Castanio did effectively against Jermel Charlo. Canello does a lot better. I don't know how Charlo's going to keep Canelo off him. I think he gets to him in the second half of the fight and stops him eighth, ninth round. and either way, I don't think it's all that competitive. Give me an argument, if you have one, I guess, that Charlo can be competitive in this fight. I don't have one, and I'm disappointed by Charlo

and the promotion of this fight. And to be honest with you, I totally forgot that it was this weekend. I'm not hating. I'm not saying that because it's across the street. No, no, there's no buzz. Initially, when me and you do our show, Jabs, I was telling you, oh, this is going to be a massive promotion because Charlo is the bad guy,

Conello's the good, you know, the good guy who's soft-spoken guy. Charles is a lion only. He's always mean. He's always out there. Just, you know, the ferocity. You're not seeing that. We've got a tame lion now. Respectful, if you want to see it that way.

But he's never been respectful in his past fights. So what changed? Canello's in front of them, the moments in front of him. That could be a good thing or a bad thing. I'm saying the promotion's not there. And I totally forgot it was this weekend. Am I excited? Yes.

I'm going to purchase and watch? Absolutely. But then activity is going to catch up to Charlo if the limelight hasn't already. Because I'm telling you. We're not seeing that normal lion, that ferocity out of him. So where is that? Because he's in the face of another lion.

That's one. Two, the inactivity, the injuries, that catches up to a fighter, especially once the fights around the corner. So there's no more promotion. There's no more talking. Whatever they did already, you know, it's there now. It's time to fight. I think Canelo ends up stopping, Charlo.

Before this, I was saying that Charlo was going to hurt, not hurt, get the respect of Canelo and Connell we're going to have to respect the power. Charlo, the long reach, the boxing ability, the fact that Charlo fought a short, stocky, power puncher back to back in Castanio, that was going to suit them well, considering Canelo has similar statured. No, not anymore. Not anymore.

I don't see the line in the eye of Charlo. I don't like the inactivity, the injury. I just think Canelo has been way too active. In the three years that Charlo's been active, he's fought once a year, three times in three years, pretty much. Canelo fought eight times in three years. That's why he's the big dog. That's why he's pound for pound number one.

That's why he's the most feared guy. And between Lion versus Leon, the inactive line versus the active Leone, I'm going to take the Leone. That's lying in Spanish, by the way. I think Canelo stops him. Yeah, the argument for Charlo includes the idea that Canello is a diminished version of the fighter we saw winning all the belts at 168. People point to the fight against John Ryder's. They couldn't get John Ryder out of there. But the counter argument to that is, look, Canello was coming off a major injury himself,

had surgery on his hand. It was a hometown fight. And Ryder, frankly, is a tough guy. You know, he's a strong, tough guy at 168 who, you know, survives some rough moments and eventually went the distance with Canello. I don't think Canello was all that diminished at all, surgery. He's certainly not the guy that we saw between 2018 and, what, 2020. You said Canelo is not diminished or is diminished?

I don't think he's that. Look, he's not the same guy we saw beating Golofkin in 2018 all the way up to stopping Caleb Plant at the end of 2020. Make up your mouth. Make up your mind. Is he diminished or are we not seen? Yes or no? He is diminishing? I mean, he's 32, 33 years old.

That's the question, man. Yes or no? If that version of Canello was the 100% version, 2018 and 2021, I think this version is 90. So yeah, I think he's 10% worse than what he was at his very best. But I also think Charlo is a little bit worse. People talking about age, Charlo's older. Yes, I know Canelo's been fighting as a pro much longer, but Charlo is the older man chronologically.

And he's coming off a long layoff and a real hand injury. These things just, I don't know. I mean, look, I'm with you. I'm going to buy the fight. I think undisputed versus undisputed is a great storyline. I'm curious to see how Charlo acts during fight week. Is he more aggressive? Does he get in Canello's face a little bit more?

I know Canello is already trying to find a little bit of motivation by saying that Charlo, when they were both with Golden Boy promotions, never respected his skill. I don't remember that. But Canello is trying to fuel the tank a little bit more. So maybe Charlo gets it going during this fight week. But even if he does, I don't see it. I don't see Charlo being able to keep Canello off him. Castagna was all over Charlo over the course of their two fights.

And Canello will do the exact same things but better and comes into it with an absolute granite chin. Canello cannot be hurt, not by Jamel Charlo at least. He went 12 rounds with Demetri Bevol. He went 36 with Gennady Golofkin. He has been in with some big punchers at super middleweight and above, and he's taking them all out, or he's taking most of them out, I should say. So I don't see hurting Conello as being an option for Charlo. I think he just, I think Canello does what he does. He hunts him down and eventually gets him in the second half of this fight. Well, I'm glad you're not a company man, Chris Mannix, because you answered my question somewhat they're weaseling out of it.

Yes, we are seeing a diminishing side of Canelo, but that's what happens when you've been fighting since you're 15 years old and that's 65 professional fights, fighting the absolute best after best after the best. He doesn't take, you know, tunups, not that many at least. So this is one of the greatest fighters of our generation, certainly probably one of the greatest top two Mexican fighters of all time with that lineage. But one thing that doesn't diminish, yes, the elbows, the knees, the ribs,

all the injuries pile up and a fighter is bound to diminish, especially as active as Canelo. But one thing that doesn't go is the chin. That never goes, Manix. You can go, your chin will last all the way to the end. Ask Muhammad Ali, ask Sugar Ray Leonard. Ask every great that had speed, that had power, that had explosiveness. They were able to fight to the very end of their career nowhere near what they were because of their chin. Canelo can do that as well because he can take a big punch.

So, yeah, Charlo doesn't have the activity, the confidence, the injury. Everything's against Charlo. I'm very disappointed in this promotion. And as far as style versus style, yeah, I don't see anything Charle can do to keep them off. If I would have seen a different chip on Charlo's shoulder, if I would have seen, you know, the old Charlo, the Charle level where you're accustomed to seen, even though it's just promotion, a facade or the bad boy, I don't care. It sells.

I want to see that. I want to see the chip in the shoulder. I want to see the look in the eye. I want to see the eye of the tiger or the eye of the lion. I'm not getting that. I'm getting a timid lion here against another one. So, yeah, I got Canelo by knockout this one. When did you start to diminish in your 20s?

Physically, in my late 20s, internally, my late teens. You know the most resilient thing about you is your liver. You're damn right, because it recuperates pretty fast. Kind of like when you cut off the snake of a lizard, similar to Latin snakes. And when we come back, my conversation with the great Jim Lampley. With the busy fall season just around the corner, you might be looking for wholesome, convenient meals for jam-packed days. Well, factor America's number one ready-to-eat meal kit

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Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days I'd put on 10 pounds, I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes,

follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Jim Lampley, the longtime voice of HBO Boxing, Boxing Hall of Famer. This week, he is working with pay-perview.com, providing onsite coverage and analysis for the Canelo Alvarez, Jermel Charlo fight,

which you can order at ppv.com. That includes a viewer chat on Fight Week. And Jim, kind enough to join me for a chat here on the show. So, Jim, let me ask you the broad, abstract question since HBO has been out of the boxing business for the better part of the last five years. What has Jim Lampley been doing for the last five years? Well, I moved from Southern California to Chapel Hill, North. Carolina, home of my alma mater for both undergraduate and graduate school a long time ago. I accepted an appointment that had been sort of standing by waiting for me to teach a course

to seniors and graduate students here at UNC, a course that I developed evolution of storytelling in American electronic news media. Everybody expected me to teach something with regard to sports. I didn't. But I did have a background as a new background. news commentaries so I wanted to talk about what I thought was a more important topic going forward. I was in the midst of my first semester of teaching communications 490 when COVID hit. A variety of things happened all at once. It was a whirlwind. And my wife, Deborah, and I wound up staying here in Chapel Hill for that period of time, purchasing one apartment that later became a larger house and sort of putting down new roots in Chapel Hill. We still go back to

Southern California to visit family, but now we are residents of Chapel Hill. I taught my course for five semesters until it thoroughly exhausted me. And at the moment that I chose to take a semester off, suddenly out of the blue emerged the opportunity to do ringside chat for ppb.com. And now I'm headed back to a prize fight for the first time in almost five years, which is kind of a startling phenomenon that it took this long for such an opportunity to come along and that I filled the time so continuously during the time that it wasn't happening. But I did keep watching fights, paying attention to fights, et cetera. So I'm not totally out of the loop, just out of practice as I get ready to come back and do something new that I haven't done before.

Typing observations into a text screen, trading observations with Lance Public. Meyer, whom you know very well from Los Angeles Times, and answering questions from viewers if they want while watching Connello and Charlo fight. It's wild that it's been five years. I mean, you're a man that, you know, at least once a month, probably twice or more, would spend your life on the road or ringside, you know, calling a broadcast. In those five years, how much have you missed boxing? You know, it's an emotionally engulfing the sport, not involving, engulfing. You know, it can take over your whole being if you're covering it as continuously and as meaningfully as I was asked to cover it by HBO. It's a global sport, not a national sport.

It's, you know, at the end of the day, when I had my semi-monthly magazine style show and HBO was, experimenting with the expansion of the boxing universe. I was concerned about women fighters, concerned about fighters from Eastern Europe and Western Europe and various countries all around the globe, along with American fighters. It was a vast informational landscape to stay up to date with, so therefore to have it go away

and not have the need to pay. attention and keep up with all that. I'm just glad that my course, communication for night, was challenging enough that it filled the gap in a lot of different ways. And I wound up being completely involved in something else. And of course, involved in life in Chapel Hill, you know, making new friendships on the faculty, getting in touch with people I hadn't seen in 40 years, going to the basketball and football games, having pretty good food. Um, sometimes sitting with the chancellor, et cetera, et cetera. It's all been really rewarding and lots of fun.

And everything I sort of dreamed would be the case if I happen to come back and live in chapel. So back in 2019, you were scheduled to call the Teofima Lopez-George Cambosis fight for Triller when that fight was ticketed for that platform. Obviously for other reasons, that fight fell apart, It was pushed the fall. Matt Trum picked it up and Triller has phased its way out of boxing. What happened with you and Triller? Because that seemed like something that could be just more than just one fight for you to be back in boxing.

Do the one fight. It was at that moment a sort of get acquainted looksie deal. One fight. CFI wanted to work for them continuously. Teofimo got sick. and the fight came down. Eventually, Triller asked me to go to Miami to cover Evander Holyfield versus an MMA fighter.

I know nothing about MMA. I've never immersed myself in it. Yeah, Max Kellerman was an MMA expert. I admired that about him. I didn't have the bandwidth. So I said to Triller, it's really, it's not valid for me to go and cover that fight. I don't know enough about the person that Evander is fighting or the life that he's been living to be a competent blow-by-blow commentator for something like that. Eventually, for a variety of reasons, I was really glad that I didn't go.

And then at that point, it was just a matter of looking and waiting to see if someone else was going to make me an offer to accept a ringside blow-by-blow position. and I'm happy for all of the people who were already seated in those chairs that nobody was asked to leave and give his chair up. All the people who worked for the other people who were distributing fights via the web or pay-per-view or television. They all stayed in place. They were very competent boxing blow-by-blow people. Again, I'm glad I didn't have the bittersweet experience of moving into someone else's job. and I wound up sitting here not calling fights for a long, long time. And now here comes the opportunity to communicate in another form,

in a new way of expressing during the fights. And I'm very interested in that. Part of what my course was about was all the ways in which the news business has worked and moved from here to there to here. And the impact of social media and other digital elements with regard to news transmission content management, et cetera, et cetera. So now I'm a part of it in the continuing evolution of boxing coverage. Are you interested in calling fights again?

Sure. But I have to be realistic about it. I haven't called a fight in almost five years. I'm not by traditional standards numerically young. And as I say, those, you know, those people who are doing fights continuously, the zone, showtime, ESPN, some others, they have people sitting in those chairs. And they've decided to stick with those people. And I'm happy for them.

I mean, it's been a painful reality several times in my broadcasting light that if I got a good job, someone else was losing good job. I'm a truly great for Barry Tompkins that when I replaced Barry Tompkins at HBO had to be very painful for him. We remained friends and stayed in touch right up until the moment when he was elected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

And same with others in the Blow by Blowcraft, like Tim Ryan, which I stayed in touch and remained friendly. I'm happy that everybody's life went on productively, and that's good. So for most of your time calling fights with HBO, HBO was by far the most powerful broadcaster, in a lot of ways, a singular broadcast. There were some competitors showtime, especially towards the end. But HBO was the Goliath in the industry.

Over the last five years, kind of what have you thought as you've seen the fluctuation in the number of broadcasters that have gotten in and in many cases gotten out of boxing. It's been a swelling of broadcast from NBC, spike, bounce, Fox to a decrease in the number over the years. What have you kind of thought as you've seen the number of broadcasts kind of grow and then shrink over the years? I've thought if it's confusing for me, it must be confusing as hell for viewers and fans of the sport. And I think it probably is. I think that a lot of people, even executives for some of these entities that have set their foot into the water and then sometimes pulled back out, I think they failed to properly

recognize the difference between boxing television and other kinds of sports television. You know, you deal with the NBA. For sports like the NBA and Major League Baseball and NFL football, the basic model there that fuels viewer interest and keeps those sports feeding the meter for television entities is abundance and regularity. I know that the Yankees are going to play the Red Sox 18 times this year. I know that all of those games will be available to me via some television transmission system in New York, Boston, or nationally. I know how that relates to all the other sports that are in that regular envelope. Boxing's never been that kind of thing. And one of the things that made Showtime and HBO preeminent in boxing and took away

the thunder of ABC's wide world of sports, why first began calling fights, CBS Sports Spectacular, and NBC Sports World, was that those shows were still built around the abundance and regularity model, and boxing is built on scarcity and irregularity. I have to see the this fight, because this might be the only time that it happens. If I'm not watching this Saturday night, I won't get a chance to see Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Hagler again. That was the model that made this a premium pay cable sport. It was different from all other sports. It was totally entrepreneurial. Events came and went, and if you weren't watching and paying attention, and he had not bought the service, then you weren't going to be able to be involved. That

was thrilling to me because it meant that every event was its own perfect snowflake and they all materialized organically in different ways and the economic return from those events was magnified by the scarcity and irregularity and I always understood that and bonded with it. So I think that maybe the general audience has begun to understand what that is now. And it's beginning to influence some of their regularity and abundance sports in ways that they may not previously have seen coming. But it's all about the productivity of the economic model that concentrates the income from every individual event. So I want to talk about Canello, who is going to defend his super middleweight titles on Saturday against Jamel Charlo. Around this time last year, Jim, we had Canello finishing off the trilogy with Gennati Galach.

And you called the first two fights between Canello and Triple G, both of which were tremendous fights, competitive fights. The third one, the scorecards were relatively close, but it was nowhere near as thrilling or as competitive as the first two. What were you thinking kind of watching that trilogy conclude in the way that it did? There's only one thrill in Manila. there's only one trilogy I know of which produced a third fight of the kind of dramatic impact

that took place between Frazier and Dalit. There were a lot of personality factors and organic factors relative to the side of the fight that went into that and for Canelo and Triple G to go back to the same arena in which

they had fought the first two times with careers necessarily, seemingly a little bit past the upper element and headed possibly toward the downside, it was inevitable, I think, that it was lesser combat than the first two. And watching the third fight, I felt, I don't want to say I felt privileged that I wasn't calling it, because I'd still love to call all the fights, but I felt privileged that I had called the first two, because those were time capsule fights, and the third one was not. And I think a lot of what we're looking at with Conello next Saturday night in Las Vegas is, or this coming Saturday night in Las Vegas is, where is he now?

At what point have you made enough money and bought enough beautiful thoroughbreds and been treated to enough overwhelming favors by the privileged elite of Mexico that you go into the gym with something less than the same devoted and fanatical edge that it takes to train at your best in boxing. One thing I always say to fans

is if a fighter toward the end of his career shows up at the gym every day for six or eight weeks at 2% less than what he was before. and the trainer is comfortable because he's made money, and the people around them are more comfortable because they've made money. Nobody, it's possible that nobody sees a 2% diminution on a day-to-day basis, but that can lead to showing up on fight night 10 or 12% less than what you used to be. And that's where the unexpected enters in.

So how much does Canello have left in terms of being able to devote himself in the maximum way that it takes to be the best you can be in the ring against a younger, hungrier, potentially faster, up and coming challenger, whom only a few people are giving much chance to win the fight. You know, I'm wondering, as you watch Golofkin in that fight, as you monitored kind of Golofkin's fight schedule over the last few years, HBO played a pivotal role. in the development and the growth, at least publicly, of Ganadi Golofkin. You watched them really from 2013 to 2018 and say, I'll take on all comers, fighting two, three,

I think you got close to four at one point times per calendar year. Over the last few years, you know, Ganadi wasn't really interested in that. That's not a new development for fighters as they get a little bit older for not wanting to take on certain challenges. But did it disappoint you at all in the latter stage of Golofkin's career post- Canello 2 to see him, I don't want to say avoid the big challenges, but certainly not race towards them in the way he was pushing for them early in his career. Never express any disappointment in Ganadi Golubkin, given what he did for HBO, my network, and what he did for my career.

He was, through most of his career, a life and death fighter. and the kind of life and death fighter who provides an intensity of drama that is very difficult to match in the boxing world. That and the way that he spoke, the way he mastered just enough English to project his character in the ring in those post-flight interviews, made him irresistible. He was platinum. And I'm not sure that we had another platinum commodity at HBO at that time. Canello certainly was a tremendous and meaningful commodity, but did he have the kind of ring personality that Ganadi had? No, nobody did. So again, I would never express any disappointment. He, through the style in which he fought, gave us all he had for a long time. So you mentioned how so few people are picking Jermel Charlo in this fight. And I'm in that same boat.

I simply, Jim, do not see a pathway to victory for Jermal Charlo. I know people point to Canello being more shopworn than he was in years past, but we're talking about a Jermel Charlo jumping up two-way classes coming off a 17-month layoff and fighting his first fight after a hand injury that was so significant that it forced most of that 17-month layoff. I just think this is one of the simpler fights for Canello to get through. Do you have a compelling argument otherwise? Do you have a compelling argument that this is a more competitive fight than people think? I wouldn't call it a compelling argument because everything you say is true.

But I would call it a time-honored argument because boxing is, as Larry Merchant so frequently said, the theater of the unexpected. And again, we don't know everything at this moment about the circumstances of Canelo's psyche and you know how much he's been satisfied by his experiences having gotten to the top is he possessed of an overwhelmingly deep hunger to get back to number one pound for pound which requires that he wins this fight and then somehow sets up an opportunity to fight terence crawford because let's face it the road to pound for pound number one now now goes through omaha nebraska um and is he possessed of that?

or is he fighting to pad the bank account a little bit more and add a little bit more to his unique Mexican legacy and stamp himself one more time as possibly take your pick the greatest Mexican fighter of all time, which is a unique identity in the sport? If that's enough for him, then again, I don't know what happens. in training. And Jamel Charlo is talented. Jamel Charlo is quick. Jamel Charlo can crack, especially with the left hook. This is not an out-of-the-question upset possibility. This is a fight that could very well yield a groundbreaking surprise,

which leads us into another business era. Because if I'm Terrence Cawford sitting in Omaha, who do I want to win? very much want Canelo Alvarez to win for two reasons. That's the most money I can make. And I believe that he's old enough that I can get him. But if Charlo wins and has on his record a victory over Canelo Alvarez, now there are a lot of people saying, wow, does Crawford really want to fight? Jamel Charlo? He just proved a lot with that performance in a big fight. You know, it's all relative to the kinds of theoretical discussions and sometimes overinflated expectations that make boxing what it is. So before I let you go, I do want to ask you about Terrence Crawford.

Back in 2007, it was your colleague Larry Merchant who first floated the idea of a dream fight between Manny Packia and Oscar Delahoya. Do you get any kind of familiar tingle when you hear about Crawford moving up three-way classes? to fight Canello or do you, as someone that called a lot of Terrence Crawford's fights, do you look at that as maybe being a bridge too far? Well, I think that Crawford has something that Canella wants, which is number one pound for pound. And if I'm Terrence Crawford, I'm saying to myself, not even for a second, am I going to concede to this guy that I might move to 168 to fight him?

I want to fight him at 160 or even more ideally at 154. and I don't think that Kandela would agree to 154. But if he has to come down eight pounds to 160, to get this last opportunity to add to possibly greatest Mexican fighter of all time, pound for pound number one at the moment of his possible retirement, wouldn't he give up the eight pounds and go fight Crawford at 160? I think that's a possibly logical pathway toward that fight taking place. And given what Crawford showed against Darrell Spence,

I'm not sure I don't make him the favorite over Canello at 160. Depends on what Conello looks like against Charlo. Yeah, I think it's fascinating to think about if Canello gets through a Charlo fight. Because Crawford sure seems to be focused on it. You see Crawford on social media calling for that fight on a regular basis. So I'd be fascinated to see if that fight could be put together. I mean, like I say, there are lots of other guys that Crawford can fight. There's nobody who's going to make him the kind of mind.

money that he gets to fight Canelo Alvarez, and he knows that. So I, you know, I think Terrence is very determined, very strong-minded, Terrence runs his deal. Terrence gets what Terence wants in most instances, and he is a uniquely talented in the current framework, balanced counterpuncher who can put superpower on counterpunches in a way that most fighters can't. He showed that against Spence. Jim Laplie, check him out all week, fight week on site in Vegas doing work for Paperview.com. We'll also be doing a live chat during the fight on Paperview.com, the live stream there. Jim, always good to talk to you, man. Hope you will enjoy your first fight week in a while. All right, Chris, and let me know when you are here in Chapel Hill to look at Elliot Cadeau or

Armando Beacott. I'll be happy to line you up and take you out to dinner, all right? Absolutely. It's a deal. All right. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Sergio Amora and Jim Lampley for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends.

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