The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Canelo vs. Charlo...but not the one we thought

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

Chris is joined this week by the ESPN writer, Mike Coppinger and the guys dive into how the Charlo change happened and if this fight got better or worse for the boxing audience, did we learn anything about Jared Anderson in his fight against Charles Martin, and will Ryan Garcia fight again this year? Later, Vergil Ortiz stops by to talk about his long absence from boxing and what we can expect from him this weekend. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

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Hosted by S.I.'s Chris Mannix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. This is Boxing with Chris Mannix. We are part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network, where we will be for the foreseeable future. If you listen to Colin Cowherd's Pod on Monday,

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Virgil Ortiz, undefeated Welterweight contender. He is back in action this weekend against Amontas Stani Onus. This has fight of the year potential Ortiz and Stanionis. Two skilled, heavy-handed 147-pounders. I talked to Virgil about the fight, about his recent battle with a somewhat mysterious illness, I would say. and how he sees the welterweight division shaping up over the next year. But first, a lot of news in boxing, as there always is. We have a new opponent for Canelo Alvarez, a familiar one for Anthony Joshua, and a couple of heavyweights doing what heavy weights like to do,

which is arguing over purse splits on social media. So to break it all down, I'm joined by Mike Oppinger, ESPN Boxing Insider, most plugged in guy in the game, a must follow on social media for all boxing fans. And Mike, let's start with the Charlo Switcheroo that happened this past week, which took me a minute to wrap my head around. Actually, to send a few text messages to make a couple of calls just to make sure there wasn't a typo when we saw the poster for Canello versus Jermel Charlo. Canello, of course, had been preparing for a showdown with Jermal Charlo, who is the 160 pound title holder. sometime over the last few weeks that changed.

Now Canelo is going to face his brother Jermel, who is the undisputed champion at 154. It will be the first time in men's boxing during the four belt era that we get undisputed against undisputed. So you and I, Mike, have been reporting on this for a few days now. How did we get here? How did we get to the point where Jermal steps out and Jermel steps in? Well, first off, to make things very clear for the last,

listeners, as you and I both know, make no mistake about it. He was going to fight Dramal Charle. This is a late change. I'm told he's got finalized last week that the Canelo side was contacted and told basically Tremal Charle was not going to be ready, as you reported. He's not right, you know, he hasn't fought in two years, he's dealing with personal issues. Do you mind if Dramel slides in? And Connolla didn't care, of course. Why would he? I mean, Dramel is a 154 pounder. I don't think there's a big difference between fighting both the Charles besides them being twin brothers. and I don't think Canelo really care.

So now I think it's a pretty big fight. I think the reaction has been pretty good on social media. I had the same reaction as you because I did not realize this that happens. And I was like, whoa. The one thing that my first reaction is I see a lot of people saying, oh, well, Jermel Charlo is six foot and he's taller than Canello. I don't care. There's a big difference between being taller than somebody

and being a guy like Canela who's fought seven times at 168 pounds, twice at 175. Sharmel Charles has never fought above 154. There is a world of difference between being able to fill out of that frame, and I have no doubt that he could fill out at that frame in time, and fighting an elite fighter, an all-time great, in your very first fight, two weight glasses above. Yeah, it's a lot to ask.

I do want to add on to something you said. I know there were some people that probably believe something nefarious was going on behind the scenes that Jermel Charlo was always going to take this fight. I'm with you. This was going to be a Jermal Charlo Canelo Alvarez's fight. A fight that's been talked about for, you know, two, three years now. I mean, we've been discussing these two getting in the ring first when Canelo was at middleweight. Last was last year when PBC made a substantial offer to Canelo to fight to fight. That was when Canelo accepted the Bevo fight, went with Golofkin for the second fight. So he went that direction. Jermal Charlo has been dealing with a lot over the last couple of years. He's been dealing with physical issues, with his back, but probably even more significant have been the personal issues he's been dealing with. And so this is not some, there's nothing sneaky going on here.

Jamal Charlo wanted this fight, but he's going through a lot in his personal life right now, and he and his team just didn't believe that he'd be ready, or at least be focused enough for a fight of this match. to. This would have been the biggest fight of Jamal Charles' career, hands down. A chance to fight a pound for pound great to make a career high payday.

If you're going to take a fight like that, you want to be locked in for a fight like that. You want to be at your very best and Jamal Charlo was not at his very best. You know, Jermel, right place, right time in some ways. Like, you know, he's sitting there. He doesn't have an official fight yet with Tim Zhu that's locked in.

So the opportunity to fight Canelo Alvarez, probably too good to pass up, too much money to pass up as well. So you kind of touched on this, but, you know, Jermel has been more active than Jermal, but he's been off for some time now with that hand injury. Do you look at Jermel versus Canelo as being more or less competitive than Jermal versus Conno would have been? I think that's like the million dollar question right now, right, in light of the recent views. And one thing I want to make clear is while Dramel Charles has been more active than his twin brother Dramal, he has not been very active at all.

Since his September 2020 win over Jason Rosario, Canello, he's fought just twice. Those are two fights with Brian Castagna. First fight, life and death. I thought it was a robbery. Cassania should have won, as I think everybody else. And then he knocks that Castanio out in the rematch. In that same time span, Canoe where Alvers has fought seven times. So that's another thing Dremel is going to be dealing with.

And we saw Canoe probably not look his best against John Ryder. I think some of that has to do with his first fight after hand surgery. Tremel Charleau is going to be fighting Cano in his first fight after breaking his hand in two places. And as somebody has broken their hand a couple of times, it is, your hand never quite feels the same. I know they're athletes and they're going to have way better rehab and recovery. But I think you ask athletes to say the same thing. So I think Charles is going to be facing a lot here.

And I do want, so I don't know. For me, it just keeps reminding me of Canoe Alvers versus Amir Kavis versus Amir I know Charles better than Amir Khan. He's bigger than Amir Khan. I know this is many years later. But I remember when a Canello-Confite was announced, people were like, whoa,

Khan's jumping up. He's going to give Connoll problems with his speed. I think if I could look sort of similar, short of the explosive knockout with Charlo, you know, using his jab and counter-punching ability over the first half. I think Connoll's going to get him

over the second half. I think way too much is being made, Chris, of Canello Alvarez as opposed to downfall. I mean, John Wright is a pretty good fighter, and Conno is still, mop the absolute fort with the guy, gave him a savage beating. One more thing I want to add before,

you know, I know you're going to move on, but I was texting with Tim Zhu over the weekend, and I was like, how do you feel about this? Because I think this is an example for other fighters. You know, Tim Zew thought he was going to fight Jermel Charo again

after that January 28th fight was rescheduled. And instead of waiting around, he stayed active, beat up Tony Harrison, ninth round knockout, and knocked out Carlos Ocampo in one round last month. And now, Tim Zew doesn't even have a Charleau fight. So what if he had sat around?

And I was sexy old Tim Zoo, and he said, you know, the reality is that Connell should be fighting Benavides and I should be fighting Charlo. He both waited two years. And he also said, quote, he had one last fight in him because he was going to lose. So he took the one with the bigger pay. He's a businessman. And I have no qualms with that. I do think the ripple effects of what happened there with the Charlos should be twofold.

One, the WBO should elevate Tim Zhu to full champion. He has earned that distinction. He's the interim title holder. He has fought twice this year. I don't even, like, I'd be surprised, quite frankly, if after this fight with Canella win or lose, we see Jermel Charlo back at 154. You just, that's just too much weight to put on and then drop back.

And Jermel has been at 154 for some time. So the WBO should elevate Tim Zoo to that full title holder. And the WBC, look, they've been letting Jamal Charlo hold his claim on that WBC belt for some time. He hasn't defended it in over two years. I understand. The personal issues are significant, but Carlos Saddamas has earned the right to be called the WBC middleweight title holder.

He has been active. He just had a quality win over Julian Williams, albeit one with some controversy there at the end, but he was probably going to win that fight one way or the other. he deserves to be the full middleweight champion and Jermal Charlo should be the champion in recess. The WBC uses that distinction all the time. They've used it in the past.

They should use that for, you know, for Jermal Charlo. So those would be the sanctioning body ripple effects I'd like to see happen with this. Yeah, I agreed. I mean, sanctioning bodies, you and I complain all the time, rightfully so when they make these interim champions, These were two instances where there was actually a rightful interim champion. If you're going to make the interim champion, you actually have to follow through.

And when the champion is not fighting, actually strip them. Because why else have the interim champion other than the real reason is you want to gobble up extra sanctioning fees? So Paco told us over the weekend that there's a possibility that Charlo enters the ring as the WBO champion, but he's stripped immediately after the fight, which is not surprising. I know they want to say undisputed champion versus undisputed champion. and like you said, I would be shocked if Charbo fights at 154 again. He's a big guy to begin with dropping that, you know, traditionally when fighters move up and wait,

they don't come back down, especially two weight classes. Yeah. The guy's going to go up to 168 and then come back down to 54. No, and I have no problem with Jermel Charlo holding on to that title through September 30th. I mean, it is, it's cool to say undisputed against undisputed. It's a marketing ploy. It makes the fight a little bit bigger. to your point, the second that fight is over, one way or the other,

Jermel Charlo needs to be the former WBO 154-pound champion. Am I wrong to think, Mike, that how this played out could work out phenomenally for Canelo Alvarez? Because we've talked about this three-fight deal for the last couple of weeks since you first reported on it. First fight we knew was going to be Jermal. At least we thought it was going to be Jermal. The final fight was largely, you know, earmarked for David Benavides.

It seemed like that would be the final fight. I don't know. I couldn't figure out what the middle fight was going to be. Was it going to be like Demetreus Andrade, who Canelo has not fought at multiple weight classes over the years? Was somebody else going to emerge from the BBC universe? Now, you have a situation here where Canelo fights Jermel Charlo and wins. Maybe Jermal gets a fight November, December, before the end.

of the year, and he's ready to go in May. You know, there's a marketability to that. I beat your brother. Now I'm going to beat your other brother. It feels like, and Conello, who's not taking a pay cut for this Jamel Charlo fight, he's going to make every nickel he was promised by the BBC for fighting Jamal Charlo. He could go into a fight with Jamal next year and make another $35, $40 million. This could work out phenomenally for Canelo Alvarez.

Yeah, Chris, before this was even announced that he was fighting Jermel, I had been hearing all along that Jermel was very likely going to be the second fight and, like, you know, to get revenge for Jermal. And I thought, he's going to move up two weight glasses. And the other name I've been hearing all along is Errol Spence. I think there's a great chance that Earl Spence, winner or lose against Terrence Crawford, the Resey Spence has talked about fighting Connell a whole lot,

but he's a 47-pounder that would be moving up. Although I think that this, you know, I think Spence and Crawford this is probably going to be both of their last fights at 47 from what I've been hearing. But I think it's a perfect storyline. Jamal Charles, you get a fight in and shake up the ring with us. Hopefully you can get two fights in, right? There's no reason why if he ever can sort through his personal issues. And by the way, I think you and I both agree that we don't blame them for not taking the fight.

If you're not ready, and I don't want to see somebody just take the payday, right? People are paying a lot of money for the tickets to this fight in pay-per-view. So, but that's a perfect storyline. Very WWEs, your favorite. get the twin brother trying to take revenge. I think that's perfect for the second fight. And one more thing to circle back from before when you were asking. You know, I've always thought that Jarmal Charlo was a little bit better,

and I think that was the conventional wisdom for a while. And I thought Charlo, you know, he's a bigger guy than Jermel. He has a good size strength. He has a great power jab. I thought it would have been a better matchup with Canelo, but the inactivity was a concern, as was his mental state. So I think Canello versus Dramal Charlo with a couple of fights under his belt.

That's the biggest fight. Yeah, and you mentioned Jermel's hand injury, which has taken some time to heal. I mean, they've delayed the Tim Zhu fight in part because the hand didn't heal quite as quickly maybe as they expected. You can spar as much as you want with a hand injury. You're not going to trust it right away when you're in the ring.

It's going to take you three, four, five rounds, maybe more to really believe that it's okay. I mean, I say that because Canelo told me the same thing after the fight against John Rodder. He didn't trust that injured hand for most of the first half of the fight. And if you're going into a fight against an elite fighter like Canelo Alvarez and you're a little unsure of your physical health, it just makes it that much more difficult to win and succeed at a high level. So we'll see. We'll see what he can do.

I think it's just as marketable because of the undisputed factor. but I don't know. I don't know that. I don't know I see a path to victory for Jermel Charlo in a fight like that unless Kenello is really slid, which I don't think. I'm with you. I don't think that's actually happened at this point. All right.

Let's look back at the fight this past weekend. Jared Anderson, one of the best heavyweight prospects in all of box. He gets his first true test as a headliner faces Charles Martin, who briefly held a version of the heavyweight title. first time for Jared Anderson to go the distance. He did put Charles Martin down in the third round, but no one would say that was Jared Anderson's finest performance. In fact, you're seeing a lot of stuff out there now about,

well, did we overrate Jared Anderson? He couldn't put down Charles Martin. Anthony Joshua did it in a couple of rounds. What was your takeaway from watching Jared Anderson against Charles Martin? That was the first thing I was thinking. Joshua all those years ago, you know, flattening Charles Mark. Charles Martin is a legitimate gatekeeper and you need those. And Jared Anderson did beat him so you have to give him credit.

It's no slouch to beat Charles Martin. But it certainly wasn't a sort of statement victory that I think people, him and Toprick were looking for, right? It's not like fans are saying, oh, yeah, this guy's a definite heavyweight champion now. But I think it was a great learning experience with Jared Anderson. He got, I don't want to say hurt. I think the broadcast was probably, I didn't think he was not badly hurt many of those times, about Charles Martin landed a couple of good shots.

but Jared face adversity. You won virtually every round. But I think as boxing fans in media, we want to see explosive knockouts from our future heavyweight champions. So I don't want to have a knee-jerkery reaction here. I want to say Jared Anderson, a couple more fights. I saw him on Twitter today maybe Michael Hunter

is being thrown around. He fights Michael Hunter. I think that's a far tougher test. Michael Hunter wants every fight out there. Michael Hunter is one of those active tweeters when it comes to heavyweight contenders. I like that fight too. I mean, that's a difficult fight.

I mean, Michael Hunter gets this reputation as a guy just moves around a lot. That's not the Michael Hunter I've seen in recent fights. I've seen Michael Hunter engage a lot more in his recent fights and has shown some power in some of those fights. So I'd love to see that fight. Look, when a prospect steps up and goes the distance with an experienced opponent, I agree. I don't think the knee-jerk reaction should be he gets exposed. Look, I think Jared Anderson could have made a statement by stopping Charles, Martin, who, in addition to being stopped by Anthony Joshua, was also stopped by Luis Ortiz

and took this fight on about two weeks notice. So he was kind of ripe for getting a stoppage. It was, Mike, the second fight in a row that I've seen Jared Anderson get tagged a little bit. Like, he takes some punches. You go back to that fight at Mads Square Garden that he fought months ago, Jerry Forrest hit him with some punches. And, you know, Jerry, you know, was just there to just wing punches and get the hell out of there. but he hit him with some shots, and Charles Martin hit Jared Anderson with some shots. So if I'm taking anything away from the Jared Anderson experience over the last couple of years, is that he maybe needs a little bit more work on his defense, maybe he's a little bit more work on just not being, a little bit more sharpening up,

I guess, of all the edge, which I guess you could say is the same thing for every prospect. Jared Anderson is only 23 years old. But I don't view him as being on the cusp of any kind of heavyweight title shot. I think he's probably a year, two years probably away from that type of fight. I think a Hunter fight is good. Guys like Hunter are good. I think they'll tell us more about where Jared Anderson is as a heavyweight. Agreed.

And Jared Anderson is what, 23 years old? I mean, heavy weights traditionally develop a little bit later than other guys age-wise. So I don't think he's any rush on Jared Anderson. I do think he gets punched too much. I actually ran into Jared Anderson after the Jerry Forrest fight, and I said something like, oh, congrats, great fight. And he was like, oh, man, I got hit way too much. So he knows it.

He's pretty critical of himself. I was impressed by that as a guy who needs to improve and as a young prospect. I think it's weight and C mode. But what is interesting to me is heavyweight division. You look at what I think is the core four, right? Fury, Wilder, Ucic, and Joshua. They're all getting up there. Wilder's going to be 38 this fall.

Usoc's 30. 36 right now. He's turning 37, I believe, later this year. Fury's 34. Joshua's going to be 34 in October. And you go down, Mike, you go down the list. You've got Joe Joyce, who's in his late 30s, Jay Lee Zhang in his late 30s. Like, even the second tier of guys are getting up there. Yeah. So, I mean, we're badly in need of some heavy ways to step up to the next level. And, you know, when you look at the crop right now, I don't think there's one guy to me that stands out as, oh, that is definitively the guy. I think somebody's going to, somebody will step up. up, right? We know that that's all that will happen. But when I look at it, you're talking about what, Philip Herkovich, Frank Sanchez, Juergenhoven, so who BBC's in fast-tracking. Jalalov, maybe. Jalalov could be in that mix. I mean, Martin Bacoli, I think, even at he's 30 how old is Dubois now? He's still in his 20s, right? So he's still, I mean, he's still in his 20s.

He's going to get an opportunity at least. We'll see what he does against Zusik, but at least we'll see what he got. What's going to happen? I think we know what's going to happen there. Hey, Frank Warren says now is the time for Daniel Dubois. Frank Warren is calling the upset, which I'm not sure Frank won. Well, I guess he would want it because then he can make a huge domestic showdown with Tysofure. We are sort of due for a major upset, right? It feels like we're due for something crazy. I can't see Daniel Dubois.

That fight's going to be wearing. No. I don't know. Yeah, there's no. I don't know. That's going to happen. But good opportunity for him. But yeah, you're right.

No one has emerged as the next big thing. I keep hearing about Jalalov, but let's see what he does against upper level competition. Jared's got a lot of potential. I don't know who we're missing on that list. Who else is the next heavyweight contender out there? I think we covered most of them. I mean, I want to see what a Martin Bockely could do because he's already beaten Tony Oka. He's a pretty tough guy.

I'm not saying he's going to be the guy, but he could be a contender for sure. Got beat up by Michael Hunter, though. That was a tough one. They should do that rematch. That would be a good rematch. Again, I think Michael Hunter will fight anybody. Like, I swear to God, every time I look at Michael Hunter's timeline, he's just calling out somebody.

It doesn't mean matter. He's not even going for, he's going for like the dangerous guys. Like the guys, nobody, he was calling out Hergovich before people wanted to fight Herkovich. So I would love to see Michael Hunter against, you kind of nailed it. Jared Anderson, Michael Hunter would be a great fight before the end of the year. And that would tell us, I think, a lot about Jared Anderson. All right, a great fight coming up this weekend is Virgil Ortiz,

against Amana, Stanionis. I said at the top, Mike, I thought this fight had fight of the year potential. I really believe that. I think this could be a absolute war between two of the top welterweight contenders in all of boxing.

Virgil Ortiz, undefeated, perfect knockout streak. Every fight he's had is ended with a knockout. Stanionis, 14 and 9 knockouts. He's got a quality win over Butaev, has a quality win, or at least a good win over Thomas Delorme. Let's start with like, are you as, it's kind of a cliche, but are you like as excited about this fight as I am?

Because I'm ready to see these two guys get in the ring. It was supposed to happen back in January. It was supposed to happen a couple of months later. There have been multiple delays for both guys having health issues. Now here we are with these two guys getting in the ring in San Antonio. How do you feel about this fight? I love this fight. I think I keep hearing about Virgil Ortiz's fighting San Antonio.

I think it's much more than I. I think this is a genuine coin flip fight. And I was curious, I just checking the odds right now. Virgil Ortiz is about a 4-to-1 favorite. I know. I think is wild. I know. That's crazy.

You know, can I tell you why I think that's the case? And Sergio Moore and I were talking about this earlier in the week. Ortiz, they both have good resumes. Not great, but they both have good resumes. Ortiz, when he fights the best on his resume, wipes them out, stops them. He stopped Cavaloscus. He stopped Michael McKinson.

Who am I missing? There's somebody else on that list. I'm blanking on the race. Me machine. He stopped. Me machine. Me machine. Michael McKinson.

Amori's Hooker was the other name on his list. Just wiped him out. Stanionis, nine of his 14 wins have come by knockout. But when he's fought the best on his resume, he's gone the distance, right? He went the distance with Bhutai, which was an excellent fight at that time,

an underrated fight because both those guys, while not having the profile of some of the top welterweights, we're still two very good fighters. And he goes to this with Delorme. And maybe that looks a little bit worse because Delorme, the next fight just gets flattened by Boots Ennis. So I think that's where the odds come from. I think odds makers are looking at Virgil Ortiz,

and in recent fights, when he stepped up his competition, he's continued to put them down. Whereas Stanionis, while I think his skill level is a little bit higher than Virgil Ortiz, I think there's probably a belief he can't hold up to the pressure that Ortiz is going to put on him. The number one thing that stands out to me when I watch him onto Stanionis fight is his strength. This guy has, he's incredibly strong in the clinch. And we know this is going to be a fight with a lot of fighting on the inside for sure. So you have two big strong welterweights, both I think with power.

Maybe Stanionis, like you said, doesn't have the finishing power. but he certainly has more than enough power to gain somebody's respect and keep them off him. He has a nice jab. He goes to the body, which he always looks for, right? So I think it's a tough fight. I don't really know who to pick. I mean, I think it's really a toss-up fight. I think people are sleeping on Stanionis.

He got Freddie Roach in his corner. And he's a guy that we've been hearing about, right, for a long time, even when he was on the way up. This isn't somebody that came out of nowhere or was overachieving. I think he's been hungry for his shot. He had the appendectomy in January. and the long we've waited for the fight, the more I've been looking forward to it. I do think it could be fighting in gear.

Virgil Ortiz, too. I mean, look at all the health issues. Yeah. He's been going through a lot. And these are both, these are two fresh fighters. Neither one of these guys has been in a truly grueling fight yet.

They're both young. I think Zanyonis is being underrated. I do. I mean, at 4 to 1, that's nuts. You know, if you make Ortiz 2 to 1, I can buy that. Sure. 4 to 1 is wild.

That's not giving Stanionis enough credit. You know, if one thing I've seen of Virgil, I've seen on Virgil, said a lot of Virgil fights in the last few years. When he gets you, he already finishes you. Like, he's really good. He's as good as they get

in Welterweight when it comes to finishing. Not as well, Terence Crawford's as good as they get, but he is up there when it comes to being able to finish guys. And that's what I wonder. Like if he gets, if he rocks Stanionis, can Stanionis recover, you know, quickly enough? And I, look, I think

Stanley. Look, it's a great fight. We can go back and forth on how this whole thing plays out. I think it's going to devolve at some point into a war, and then we'll see what happens. Both these guys really strong, both these guys, big punchers. It's going to be a lot of fun. And look, I think this guy, you know, whether it's later on this month after the Crawford Spence fight happens or later on this year, whoever wins this fight is going to be the fully recognized WBA title holder. Like I think I don't see Crawford or Spence. defending against the winner of this fight. I don't know about you,

but I think they're both either dropping the belts or moving up to 154, however that works out. I think the winner of this fight is going to be a full champion before the end of the year at 147. Yeah, like I said earlier, I don't think we see Crawford or Spence ever fight again at 47 after this fight. Even if they do, they're going to be fighting each other.

I don't, and then at that point, they move up. So I think they're both going to be done with 47. We're looking at Stanionis, Virgil Ortiz, Brutennis. the three guys at 47 and you know of course we're going to get some guys they're going to move up I'm sure from 140 but it's good we like we're talking about a heavyweight right you need these young guys stepping up boot tennis is fighting this weekend too and you got to say that virgil or artis and stony onus are right there right now until otherwise proven yeah uh and look I certainly

hope that these young welterweights wind up fighting each other that we're not doing the Virgil stanionis boots dance for for some time uh look I you brought up One thing I want to add to this discussion is you brought it up the unknowns, right? Like, Stanion has had an ependectomy, what, in January? Like, he was going to fight again in March. I thought that was crazy. Like, you have an appendectomy, and you're going to fight again two months later. So I think this delay has probably been pretty good for him.

And Ortiz has battled this rabdo illness, which is obviously a serious thing, but is not something people really know about. It's obviously affected him in multiple different ways. He'll be the first to tell you that he thinks he's got under control now, but I mean, the layoff has been long for both these guys. And that could be a variable when they both step in the ring. So a lot of unknowns when it comes to us, but we do know it's going to be a tremendous fight one way or the other. This is, of course, a golden boy promoted show. So Oscar Delahoya will be there. I'm going to try to talk to Oscar for this

show later in the week. That's, I'm going to try because there's just so much to get into, Mike, with him. Like, at the top of the list is. is what the hell are we doing with Ryan Garcia? Like, you know, you and I both know this is behind the scenes World War III, right? There's breach of contract, you know, letters being sent. There's lawsuits being filed. There's just a lot of paperwork going back and forth. Meanwhile, like, Oscar's on Twitter when he's not arguing with Ryan Garcia,

talking about, you know, making Ryan Garcia a big fight. You tell me, is Ryan Garcia going to be in a fight this year in 2020? 23, like, you know how this stuff goes. When you're battling with your promoter, I don't know how this ends with Ryan Garcia back in the ring before the end of the calendar year. I mean, I'm confident that by the time you talk to Oscar, that it's more than likely that Ryan Garcia would have filed a counter suit. So that's going to be coming down the pipeline, obviously.

We all know that's coming. I thought Canello was going to be out for a while. Turned down it got results pretty quickly. But usually these things do drag out, like you said, Andre Ward. Mikey Garcia. I mean, it's not like Golden Boy is just going to, like, lie down here and be like, oh, yeah, your claims are right. Like, they're going to, like, drag this out. I hope it doesn't drag out too long, but I just can't imagine this going away quickly.

And Ryan Garcia, I guess he moved to Dallas now to be with Derek James. He grew out of beard, it looks like. So, Oscar's fighting with Eddie Hearn, seemingly every single day now on Twitter. I don't know, Eddie Hearn, I think, and Oscar Dale Hoyer are competing to see who could do more interviews. Which is wild because the only conversations I want Oscar Eddie Hearn to have is over Mungia Berlanga. Like that's the only, like stop just sniping at each other and let this, and don't let this calendar year end with like Jaime Mungia against, I don't know, D level super middleweight and Edgar Berlanga against Jason Quigley's cousin. Like I don't, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to see it. We can get a revenge storyline for Quigley's cousin.

I mean, yeah, I was going to go somewhere with that, but I was going to take a shot of my pal Sergio there for a second. But I'm going to leave that alone. I'm going to have Sergio come on, the bottom defend himself later in the week as well. I just, you know, I don't know how this benefits anyone to have Ryan and Golden Boy at each of his throats and put Ryan on the shelf for the rest of the year.

Like Ryan lost to Javante Davis, but his profile grew as a result of it. All the things that went into that event, the outcome of that event, events with the million-ish paper viewbys, you know, sitting on the shelf. Like, I mean, when I first heard the idea floated that Ryan Garcia was going to fight Raleigh Romero,

I'm like, brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Like, Roli Romero is an opponent, Ryan Garcia, should beat, and in beating him, he can finally become a world champion. He can get a title on his waist. And then he's not really, really obligated to like take that belt and go defend against Regis Progray. He could have taken that belt and fought Ishmael Barroso. And you could have said, you know what, I'm going to give the real 140 pound champion a shot, which would have been a nice title defense. And then maybe you go

fight O'Hara Davies, which is not an easy fight, but it's certainly one Ryan Garcia could win. And then all of a sudden, Mike, you're in late 2024 and then you can start talking about Devin Haney. And you can start talking about Regis Progray. And you can start talking about the big fights. Then you'll have a full year with Derek James under your belt and have some confidence-building wins. Now, like, it sure sounds like, you know, we're going to have a purse bid for the Raleigh-Ramero fight. There's no talk of Ryan Garcia against anyone substantive. Like, now we're just, it's like the worst possible outcome has happened where Ryan Garcia is sitting on the shelf and a very smart, clear path to getting his. him back on track is now just being completely disregarded.

Yeah, I think he waited out perfectly, Chris, because regardless of what you think Ryan Garcia's ceiling is, there's no doubt in my mind that he needs to develop more. Like anyone would tell you that. And he's a young kid, he hasn't had that many fights against top competition. That would have been the perfect way, really, to kind of get him ready for these big fights. And now he's fought under the spotlight once against Jervante Davis.

He's definitely going to be better at 140. I just hope this could be resolved sooner than later. because I wonder how, you know, the zone loses Canelo Alvarez, and now you have Eddie Hearn and Oscar Dale O'Order, the ones doing the big fights with each other. It has to get resolved. Yeah, I think you and I both know that if we're betting men, it's not going to get resolved anytime soon.

It's just not. Like, this kind of stuff gets uglier before it gets any better. I think Canelo was kind of an aberration there, you know, where, you know, Conello used his juice and used kind of, you know, what the contract said to get out sooner rather than later. I don't, I don't see this one being resolved. You know, go ahead. Also, for people I've spoken to, you know, that personal guarantee that Alessna O'O'O'O'I had

and that cano law soon. When I heard that, we moved large, we're resolving it quickly. People tell me that, you know, there's not going to be any quick resolution here for that reason. Yeah. It's unfortunate because, you know, Ryan is the biggest star in the Golden Boy Stable. Like, you know, in the last three years, if they lose Ryan Garcia, Bill of lost Canelo Alvarez and Ryan Garcia, which, like, that's crippling.

That's just crippling. And look, Virgil is great. Jaime Mungia is entertaining, but Ryan's the crown jewel and all that. You know, if there's any way of salvaging that, and I'm skeptical that there is, but if there's any way of salvaging that, Golden Boy should be doing everything humanly possible to salvage that relationship. Last thing I want to ask you about, what's going on with Andy Ruiz? Deonté Wilder here. Like, what, what are we doing now? Like, I, you know, look, I am, I am a regular kind of

three times a day scroller through boxing scene. Um, and when I do, like, one of the headlines is always Ruiz responds to Wilder. Wilder responds to Ruiz. Wilder says, you've got an offer. Ruiz says it's too low. Wilder says take it. Like, meanwhile, I don't even know what the money is. Like, what I don't even know what the guarantee is. Are you offering like pay-per-view splits? Because it's not going to be a big number anyway, because as much as I like Wilder versus Ruiz, that is a bad, bad fit for pay-per-view. Is this just more boxing bluster,

or do you think there's any kind of traction towards making a Wilder Ruiz fight? I don't see this fight happening, Chris. This fight's been in talks for, what, 18 months now? Tremendous fight. Everybody wants to see that they know it's going to be, you know, a heavyweight classic, given the styles, and you have two big names.

But I spoke to Andy Ruiz's a sponsor, on Friday, or sorry, Thursday morning. And he said, look, I spoke to Andy, my son. He said, we're not doing this fight unless it's 50-50. To me, 50-50 is fair. You have both former champions. They both have good names. I guess you could argue that Wilder has a bigger name, but I don't think it's by much.

So if you want to give Wilder 55-45, fine, but 70-30 is wild to me. Like, I don't see that, you know, and that's the thing. We have Wilder saying he's not moving off that. If he's truly not moving off it, then I think it's, the bridges 2I right there. And they are dealing with guarantees right now. I was told that Ruriz was offered the same amount of money he made for the Luis Ortiz fight,

which was $4 million. And while Derrard is asking for much, much more. So I don't know. And then, of course, you have the Saudi supercard in the background, which we've been, you know, I usually hear about the Saudi supercar. I just think about all the times Eddie Hearn has said, Josh was fighting Fury.

He's fighting fury and all these other things. So I don't know. Is it actually happening in December? And if it is, then how is Wilder going to fight Ruiz first? That's a dangerous fight to take if you're sitting on a, you know, a bag of, a huge bag of money from the Saudis. What do you think? I think it's a dangerous fight to take if that Saudi offer is signed, sealed, and delivered,

which until it actually is signed, sealed, and delivered, we just don't know where that's going to go. you know, I understand Deonti Wilder asking for a lot of money. He's made a lot of money over the last few years. The Fury fights made him a very wealthy man. I'm sure he made a lot of money to fight Robert Hellenius. My question is, like, who is putting up these guarantees and what kind of financial bath are you going to take on a fight like that? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but, you know, the Wilder Hellenius fight did not do well on pay-per-view. I'm not sure how you got your money back on that one. And now you're talking about making Wilder Ruiz, which is a good fight for, you know, people like you and me and the boxing, you know, diehards. But to me, it's a showtime fight. Like, it's a really good showtime fight. Oh, I disagree. You think it's paper view. I mean, look, you know me.

I'm usually the first person to say that. This is not a paper pure fight. I think only big fight. I do think this is a big fight. I think casual fans know who Wilders at this point. Of course. I think a lot of casual fans, no worries is a heavyweight fight. I actually have, I think it does like 300,000.

Really? Okay. I would have said less. I would have said sub 200, which may be enough to make your money back. Oh, I don't. That would surprise me. I mean, like, Mike, one of the thing is both these guys have been off for a while. Like, they're known guys, but it, you know, activity helps popularity.

There's a direct correlation there. And, yeah, Wilder, what was it, October of last year, he fought Robert Lennie, so he got back into the mix. But before that, it was the third fury fight. And, you know, he's been on the shelf for some time. Same thing with Andy Ruiz, very inactive. you know, look, maybe you're right. Maybe it could, you know, look, I'd buy it. I think it's an excellent fight. I think, you know, two former heavyweight champions in a fight that's probably going to end by knockout one way or the other. Yeah, I'd be interested. That's a lot of business.

300 is a big number, I think, for a fight like that. But to go back to the Saudi idea, like, if you're Deonti Wilder and that Saudi money is real, like, you're not put, you're going to get the Ruiz fight on your terms. You're not going to take it at all. Because whatever number you're going to make from the Saudis is your golden parachute. That's your retirement. That's it. You're going to make a boatload of money and you're going to get another chance to have a legacy defining fight. You had the three Fury fights.

They were phenomenal. Deonti Wilde did not embarrass himself in any of those fights, but he didn't win any of those fights. Now you get a chance to fight Anthony Joshua and you get a chance to put a big name on your resume in a fight that you will have a great chance to win. There's no question about that. I guess the question is like, you know, you talk to a lot of the same people I do. I don't know if this Saudi thing is real. Like it's December, then it's January.

It's going to be Joshua against Wilder. Then it's going to be Joshua Wilder, Fury Usook. It's just hard to get a real accurate read on where this card is going. Yeah, I mean, I think the number one issue is that you have so many moving parts, right? Like you're talking about four different fighters with their own management teams and big egos looking for big money, and you're dealing with a government entity, more or less. Eddie said, Eddie played journalist a couple of times now.

He said Fury was fighting Andrew Reeves. That was never happening, and there was an offer. I mean, now he says that Fury is fighting in Ghanaian an exhibition. Maybe he is, I don't know. But if Fury, if you were telling me that Fury is out, he's the number one person in that mix. That would change everything dramatically, right? And I was told that the Saudis aren't even making firm offers

until Usset fights Dubois, which makes. sense, right? If Rusick looks bad against Dubois, his value changes. Josh was going to fight in August 12th. If he looks bad or loses, his value changes. So I think all of this talk is premature anyway until we get through the end of August. It'd be a fun card if they can put it together, man. We'd have never seen anything like that ever, you know, two high level heavyweight fights. Man, that would be, that would be something to see. That would be worth flying over there to go and watch and see firsthand. All right, follow Mike Oppinger on Twitter. at Mike Covenger is a great job covering boxing backwards and forwards.

Mike, always appreciate your time and your insight, man. Thanks for joining me. I appreciate it, Chris. And when we come back, my conversation with Virgil Ortiz. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite

athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Virgil Ortiz is an undefeated 147-pound contender on Saturday. He will face the stiffest test of his career when he steps in the ring with Amantost Dandionis. a WBA secondary title holder who is also undefeated, also has a lot of power. It's going to be a great fight in San Antonio, Texas. That's a fight you can watch live on DeZone, and Virgil joins me here on the show. Let's start with your health.

You've had a couple of bouts with Rabdo over the last year, year and a half. It was an illness that forced you to postpone this fight from a couple of months ago to this July 8th date. how are you feeling physically going into this fight? I feel 100%. I'm just, I'm ready to go. I'm mentally and physically just ready. You know, I think people understand cuts causing cancellations or other illnesses that people understand causing cancellations.

When people hear Rabdo, I'm sure a lot of people don't know what that means and how that makes a fighter and a person physically feel. How would you describe your battle with this over the last year or so? All right. I'll explain it scientifically. So basically, my muscles start breaking down or whoever's happened to, the muscle start breaking down. It starts like the muscles start secreting or whatever proteins to like your kidneys

and your livers. And I mean, you need all organs to survive, but those are like some of the vinyl ones that there, you know, too, you know. And for me, it just felt like my body was shutting down. Like my reflexes were going. My strength was going. Energy levels were going. Just going up the stairs, like a seven-step stairs.

It was a task. I would literally get short of breath after doing that. And, you know, obviously being a professional, athlete that's not supposed to happen. And of course, if I can't get up a flight of stairs about, you know, my breath going away, imagine me sparring and training the way I train, you know, and there was absolutely no way of me fighting. Trust me, if there was any chance, any sliver of a chance of me fighting those two times, because this happened twice already, I would have fought, but it was impossible.

How have you managed to get this under control or have you managed to get this under control? Yes, we have. We've been doing a lot of recovery. I've been doing like a lot of hyperbaric oxygen chamber therapy. It's, it's, honestly, it's a whole new world. Like, I never did recovery, you know, just because I was always the type to just wake up and just run or, you know, in the beginning of my professional career, I wasn't like taking care of myself the way I should have, maybe because I didn't think I needed to, you know, but I definitely see why I see like the older fighters,

like, you know, kind of taking it slow, stretching a long time before and after. I do ice baths for now, dude. You know how long it took me to step in the ice bachelor the first time? It took me literally like 10 minutes. I'm not even like, we have a video. And another video of me shivering in there. Now I just step in. Yeah, it kind of sucks for like the first 30 seconds or so,

but, you know, it's the benefits after that make me want to get in. Having gone through all this, when you're sparring and training, do you feel like the old Virgil Ortiz, the guy we've seen over the last couple of years? You still feel like that same fighter. Oh, yeah, definitely. You know, I definitely feel like the same fighter. I don't think anything has changed other than the activity. But, you know, we're going to get back there pretty soon.

Yeah, I mean, you've been up until this last year, a guy that has been active. What's it been like for you to kind of have to deal with this where you've become a once a year guy, not because you want to be because physically you've had to be? You know, it sucks being a, you know, just fighting like every now and then. It's real depressing. You know, it's my job. It's how I make money for my family. It's how I provide.

And it's honestly the only thing I really know how to do. Yeah, I can play guitar, I can piano. I can play games. I can read. But, you know, what am I really doing with that? Boxing is the only thing that defines me. It's all I have. So not being able to do that.

it's um i feel like i'm existing for no reason now you you mentioned that and i asked you about the physical toll that your illness took on you uh how about that mental toll that it took on you being unable to do what you're talking about getting in the ring doing what you love doing what you do that provides for your family what did that take out of you mentally you know mentally it's just it's uh it's exhausting of knowing that you really can't do anything about it or at least at the time i couldn't um just just feeling worthless you know i mean i honestly felt worthless like a lot of the days um you know there's a in in twilight too in new moon there's a scene where bella is just sitting there just staring out the window and the camera just going around her watching

the seasons go by that's how i feel like that's all i feel like that's all i felt like I just I was just there I was just existing there was nothing for me to do there was no point in being I did not expect a twilight reference from you but I'll take it I'll take it um you would have been well within your your rights to take an easier fight in this first fight back you know coming back from something like this being off for as long as you have instead you're going right in with you know one of of the best welter weights out there, guy that's got a title at 147 in a Monta, Stanionas. Why was it important to you to follow through with, you know, the purse bid process and

making this fight happen as soon as possible? Well, first of all, I'm not going to pass up on the opportunity, you know. This is a good fight. This is a fight the fans want to see. It's a fight I want to be a part of. It's just one of those. It's exciting. It excites me, you know. It's pure motivation. And I wouldn't have missed it for anything, you know, besides Racco, but we got that taken care of. No, you're right. It's exciting, man. I was talking to Edgar Berlanga recently about fighting Jaime Mungia, because I think Edgar Berlanga, Jaime Mungia is can't miss type of action. I feel the same way about you and Stanionis. It feels like your styles are.

are pretty conducive to a fan-friendly type of fight. Do you agree? Yeah, I agree. You know, they're very complimentary to each other. And, you know, we both like to bring it. Is this right now, the winner of this fight will have a secondary version of that WBA belt? But it seems logical to believe that, you know, that will be upgraded at some point over the next, you know, six months to a year. Is this belt important to you?

getting your hands on this version of the belt. It is important, you know, and it's definitely, it's an important part of my career. You know, not many people get these kind of opportunities, you know. Granted, I worked for it, but at the same time, it still means a lot to me. What do you think of where the division is now, where we're going to have Spence and Crawford fight a couple of weeks after you on the same night that you're fighting, a guy that a lot of people want to see you up against boot tennis is going at it you've got your stablemate alexis rocha starting to make some noise at 147 what do you think of the state of the division right

now i think the division is going pretty good right now you know uh we got me fighting uh we got we got we got three good welterweight cards uh fights going on like back to back to back um and just in the month of july you know they called it the welterweight division you know the W-A-I-T version. But, you know, I feel like that's changing. I feel like the tide's going to turn on July. And we're going to see a lot more fights happening between everyone's favorite wheelchair.

Yeah, I know, that's Boutts Settis this, you know, as recently as a few weeks ago, and I've talked to Alexis Rocha about this. Like, can, will they be willing to do what Crawford is spent, frankly, were not? They made the division wait for these big fights. And both those guys have said, we want to make the best fights happen sooner rather than later. I assume you have that same. mindset. Of course. I mean, that's why why being boxing it? We're just sitting waiting around. I want to fight the best. You know, I'm, of course, you know, we're here to make money, but at the same time,

I want the glory as well. I want to prove to everyone and mostly to myself that I'm the best. You have a perfect record and a perfect knockout record. Everyone that's gotten in the ring with you has been knocked out. Do you think about that going into fights? about, you know, is there any added pressure to being not only undefeated, but somebody that's knocked everybody out? I can't say that I don't think about it because, I mean, you know, I do think about it from time to time. And it's a cool thing to think about.

I'm proud of it. At the same time, I don't feel any pressure necessarily. At the beginning of my career, I did try to look for the knockout a lot. I try to force it a lot. even, you know, every now and then it does pop up again in the McKinsons fight, I, in the back of my mind, I'm like, okay, I'm supposed to knock this guy out. When is it going to happen? You know, and I would try to make the opportunity happen.

And, you know, eventually it just, it happened when I finally listened to my corner. But, yeah, I mean, there's no added pressure at all, really. If I didn't get it, I wouldn't have been disappointed. You know. Well, Virgil, it's going to be good to have you back. July 8th, live on DeZone. I think it's going to be one of the fights of the year. It has the potential to be the fight of the year between you and Amanda Sanionis,

the WBA Welterway title on the line. Good luck, man. Hope we see you a lot more active this year and beyond. Damn. Thank you. Thanks for talking. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Mike Coppinger and Virgil Ortiz for joining the show.

As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcasts. Spotify, wherever you download podcasts, and I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.