The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Canelo's Next Move

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

Mannix and Keith Idec discuss the news of Canelo's departure from PBC, his likely return to DAZN, why the David Benavidez fight isn't happening, where PBC goes from here, reaction to the Devin Haney-Ryan Garcia press tour and more; later, Raymond Ford on fighting for his first world title, the wake up call he received in 2022, if he's one-and-done with the belt at 126-pounds, more. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor.

It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The volume. Get it on the action with Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. New customers who deposit $5 or more can get a no-sweb bet

up to $1,000 back in a bonus bet. You guys know that my other sport is the NBA and there is no better sport to gamble on. Football's fun, college basketball is fun, but the NBA is great. You've got some high-scoring games, some great prop bets to make. You can do it all on Draft King Sportsbook. So download the Draft King Sportsbook app now and use Code Manix. New customers can get a no-sweat bet up to $1,000 if your first bet loses.

Only on Draft King Sportsbook with Code Manix. The crown is yours. Gambling problem, call 1-800 Gambler. Or in West Virginia, visit 1-800 gambler.net in New York. Call 8778-8-8-Hope-N-Y or text Hope-N-Y 4667-369-4-6-6-9. In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-78-9-777 or visit ccpg. Please play responsibly. On behalf of Boothill Casino and Resort in Kansas, 21 and over, age varies by jurisdiction.

Void in Ontario. One no-sweat per new customer. Issued as one bonus bet based on amount of initial losing bet. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. See dkng.com slash promos for Depository. Wagering in eligibility restrictions, terms, and responsible gaming resources. This is boxing with Chris Manning. Oh, somebody punch him in the face.

Anthony Joshua is a composed and ferocious finisher. Watch this. Hosted by S.I.'s Chris Manix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. And we are back.

Boxing with Chris Manix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network. As always, I want to welcome everyone listening on the podcast feed. If you are not a subscriber, get over to the boxing with Chris Manix feed, hit that subscribe button, make sure you get this pod in your feed every single week. So, Wild Week in boxing. Not in the ring. Although Edgar Berlang had a good win this past weekend in Florida. It was down there for that.

But outside the ring, where Canelo Alvarez is now a network-free agent once again. His three-fight deal with PBC, evaporating, becoming a one-fight deal that ended because PBC and Canello could not agree on opponents for May and September of this year. We're going to talk about all that. Keith Ideck, longtime boxing writer, friend of the podcast, he's going to join me to dive into that, everything that has to do with Canello. We're also going to talk about the Ryan Garcia-Devin Haney Press Tour, which has taken place this week in New York and Los Angeles. I was on the New York leg of the press door, spoke to both these guys one-on-one,

conducted a face-off between these two, which was terrific. You should check that out on YouTube probably the next couple of weeks. And we're going to talk about how competitive this fight really is because when you look at Devin Haney, you see a guy that is right now

peaking as a fighter. When you look at Ryan Garcia, you see a big-time talent, a big-time puncher, but someone that is still trying to figure his craft out, someone that is now on his set, second fight with trainer Derek James, who had some inconsistencies in his last fight against Oscar Duarte. We're going to talk about how competitive this fight is going to be and what could

be waiting for the winner in 2024. So great conversation with Keith Ideck. A little bit later on, Raymond Ford, the 126 pound contender. He is going for his first world title. He's fighting on Saturday night live on ESPN when he takes on automatic Kolmatov for the 126 pound belt vacant. 126 pound belt. I talked to Ray about the evolution of his career, which seemed like it was taking a turn for the worst back in 2022 when he won a very controversial decision over Edward Vasquez. The fighter I saw in 2022 did not look World Championship caliber. The fighter I saw over the next three fights absolutely looked World Championship calendar. I'll talk to Ray about the changes he made in the aftermath of that controversial win and why he believes it will put him

in position to fight a very dangerous opponent in Kalmatoff on Saturday. So great conversation with Gray Ford. Great episode this week. So when we come back, my conversation with Keith Idyk. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me.

Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space. For honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun.

Thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith Rule of Two. Listen to Stuff to Boar Your Mind on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. All right, Keith Ineck, friend of the podcast. I am no longer intro on you, though, as senior writer,

Boxing Scene.com. You have moved on. Is there anything you want to tell us about what's next in the world of Keith Idick? Well, I am a senior writer, unfortunately, from me. No, no, who I'm writing for, unfortunately. But, no, Chris, yeah, it was a great run we had at boxing scene. I left the newspaper industry in 2016 willingly and went to this job, and it worked out better than I ever could have imagined.

I think, you know, a lot of us who were responsible for what we did at boxing scene for the last seven years or so and what Rick did from the time he started the site in 2003 have a lot to be proud of. You know, we busted our butts collectively for a very long time and, you know, Paramount decided to sell the website after Showtime got out of boxing, which was a understandable move from their standpoint. And, you know, so moving forward with several freelance opportunities for now and some things I can't really discuss at the moment, but definitely. staying and covering boxing for sure and looking forward to it. Well, I'm glad you're still in boxing, Keith, still covering boxing because you are still

one of the most plugged in insiders in this sport, which makes you the perfect guy to talk to today because it has been a wild last few days in boxing. And I'm not even talking about the press tour for Ryan Garcia and Devin Haney. We're going to get to that in a couple of minutes. But the big news this week is that for the second time in as many years, Canelo Alvarez is a network free agent. Canelo and PBC mutually agreeing to part ways this week after the two sides could not get together on an opponent for Canello in May.

Reports indicating that PBC preferred a big name like David Benavides or Terence Crawford. Canelo Alvarez reportedly was pushing for a fight. against Jermal Charlo. And with that much money potentially at stake, PBC was not willing to do it. Canelo was not willing to budge. Those two sides for now are going to go their separate ways. So what we think is going to happen is that Canello is going to fight on DeZone for his next fight.

The two leading candidates at the moment are Edgar Berlanga, who is coming off a win over Padre McGrory this past weekend, a knockout win over McCrory. And Jaime Mungia, one of the bigger stars in Mexican boxing, 42 and O coming off a knockout win over John Ryder back in January. So we're going to talk about those potential options, Keith. But the question is, how did we get here? How did this much-celebrated three-fight deal with PBC become a one-fight deal?

with that one fight being a lackluster one against Jermel Charlo. How did we get here? Well, it's my understanding, Chris, that they wanted a commitment from him that he was going to fight David Benavides after fighting Jamal Charlo. Of course, Canello going into that fight would have been a heavy favorite to beat Jamal Charlo based on his inactivity and where Conello is in his career, whereas Charlo is in his career, not necessarily a fight that there was much of a public appetite for, if any appetite at all.

So if they were going to guarantee him, X amount of dollars for that type of fight, which would not have been well received from, you know, in the court of public opinion, you know, people are not going to, the diehard Canelo fans will buy the fight no matter who he fights. Of course, in Mexico, it's shown on free TV and all that. But I don't think there would have been people rushing to click the buy button if he fought Jamal Charlo on May 4th. So they were in a tough position there.

And I understand from their standpoint wanting to get a commitment from him to, if he wins that fight for him to take the fight that they want that everyone wants we all want him to fight david benivitas that everyone wants canelo to fight david benivitas except apparently canelo so if you're not going to get that kind of commitment from him i could understand i'm not guaranteeing you know the number 35 million has been floated around quite often that's it's more so you know if It's a lot of money. And if you're going to lose money on an event, you want some sort of assurance from him that you're going to recoup that money and then some in the next event. So I get it, them moving in a different direction.

And I understand DeZone's willingness to work with Canello again. He's still the biggest star in American boxing. You know, Javante Davis is a big star in his own right. But Canello is still the most established star in American boxing. He'll do pay-per-view business no matter who he fights. but I think at a certain point when he's taking fight it's just very difficult Chris as you well know and I know you've discussed this on the podcast

with other guys and everything it's very difficult to come off the Jermel Charlo fight with the bad taste that was left in everyone's mouths based on how that fight went and then try to sell him fighting his brother now Jermal might have stood there and fought and maybe taken a beating that doesn't make anyone feel any better

when you're paying $85 to watch a fight that you knew was not going to be the type of fight you wanted to see. So I think that's sort of how we got here. And Chris, I don't understand. If you're Canello, what are the fights you want to see Canelo in the most? Well, it begins with David Benavides. That's the obvious one. So after that, after that, it's kind of, I'll give you, I'll get you go there a second, but after that, it's, to me, a coin flip between Terrence Crawford and Jaime Mungia. Those are the two that I would be most interested in in 2024. Okay, so wholeheartedly agree with you, Benavides, is the fight everyone wants to see.

I don't know he hasn't really said one way or the other. He just doesn't want to fight him just because he said so. I'm not saying he's afraid of him or anything like that or that he couldn't win the fight. He clearly does not want to fight David Benevitas. I don't know how you can make the argument that he does or the fight would have happened already. So he doesn't want to fight him. He's the number one guy. And then however anyone ranks it from there,

I don't love the Crawford fight from a competitive standpoint. There are people who do. But I do agree with everyone that it's a very marketable fight. Well, he doesn't want to take that fight because it feels like he wouldn't receive any credit for beating a guy who's three weight classes below him. That's somewhat understandable. Okay, but now you're taking the two most marketable fights off the table. Then you say, okay, well, what about fight?

fighting Jaime Mungia. And I know he's changed his stance on this a little bit. And I'm not saying Jaime Mungi is necessarily third, but, well, I don't want to fight another Mexican. Okay, well, what about fighting Bival. Now, of course, Bivol is committed to fighting better. Bival. What about fighting the rematch with Bival? Oh, I don't want to do it at 168 pounds because I won't get credit because he'll be weight drained. So it has to be at 175. At a certain point, who do you want to fight? Edgar Berlanga? Yeah. I mean, that's certainly direction. It seems to be trending. at this point. The Benavides stuff is just weird because there seems to be two different stories

surrounding it, right? You've got Benavides's team led by Samson Lukowitz out there saying that they have made an offer that would guarantee Canello $55 billion. That could be worth $60 million. This, by the way, is not a, this is an offer that they've come to the table with publicly before, right, where they had said last year that there would be some guarantees north of $40 million, and that Canelo could make more than 50 million to fight Benevita's last year. They've upped that offer, at least the public talk of that offer this year. Then you have, you know, Eddie Rinozo, the trainer and manager of Canelo Alvarez, that came out and said that no one has offered them a David Benavides fight.

So this isn't a case, Keith, of it being misinterpreted or some ambiguity. Someone's just straight up lying here. Someone is being dishonest about this offer. Now, we both know that Canello wants his money guaranteed, right? He wants his money, not up front, but, you know, there. He wants to know that he's going to make X dollars the day after that fight. It's going to be in his account. Could that be part of it?

Could there be talk of him fighting Benavides and making $55 million, assuming the pay-per-view does really well? Or is this just a question if somebody is straight-up lying and the audience, including us, is being misled. You know, Chris, I'd be reluctant to say anyone specifically is lying because I don't know every conversation that everyone's had with everyone. All I know is that BBC people want him to fight David Benavitas. He hasn't really shown...

Well, Keith, let me ask you this. Was this a conversation they had last year? I mean, look, Jamal Charlo is on the list of opponents that Canello could fight because at the time last year, a Jamal Charlo fight made sense. I mean, Jamal Charlo was the original opponent for Canello in September. He fell out. His brother took his place. And Jamal, his issues have been well chronicled.

But David Benavides was on the rise last year. He beat Caleb Plant this past March. Like, was David Benavides discussed when Canelo signed this three-fight deal? Well, the interesting thing, Chris, is what if he would have fought Jamal Charlo in September? Say, Charlo was in the right head space and in position to train. it would have been a hard sell coming off that long of the layoff, of course, taking that tough of a fight. At the same time, let's just say he fought Jamal Charlo in September. Well, then where are we? I mean, Jermal Charlo is out of the equation, obviously, because you couldn't

beat Jamal Charlo and say, well, I'd like to fight his brother, who's two-way classes below. Smaller. So where would we be then? It had to have been discussed with him about fighting Benavitas. I mean, that's the fight that everyone wants. And at that point, of course, Chris Crawford wasn't in the mix as a potential opponent because he hadn't fought Spence yet. So who were they talking about him fighting? If this was all proposed and they came up with what was supposedly a three-fight agreement, who would they have talked about him fighting beyond Jamal Charlo at that point? And the other thing to keep in mind, Chris,

is on the PBC side of it, they're more than open to working with Canello again. They're not closing the door on him fighting on the PBC platform again. And I don't think he's against it either. He's made good money in these fights and the fight that he's been treated very well, of course. To his own people obviously have treated him very well too and so is match room and all. But he seems to have been satisfied with how he was treated, how he was paid, how the events were handled and everything. And they were both, the plant fight was more successful from a paper year standpoint. So they're open to working with him again. But he's going to be 34 years old in July.

So let's just say, for argument's sake, Chris, the rest of this year winds up. up being him fighting, him beating Edgar Bolanga on May 4th and then presumably fighting Jaime Mungi on September, whatever, and beating him, well, then who was he fighting? And then he's 34 going on 35. Yeah. I don't think it's going to be Benavides. That's for sure. I think that ship has probably sailed.

Look, when I was asking people about the three-fight deal when it was announced, and you. probably heard some of the same things. You know, I heard Jamal, most likely opponent for September, right when the deal was announced. I heard that David Benavides was the most likely opponent for the third fight of the deal, the back end, September of 2024, and that they were still trying to figure out who would land in the middle. There was some ambiguity there about who would land in the middle.

Now, obviously, that, you know, plan was blown up when Jamal had to back out. It was Jamal, and the fight was just dreadful, making Jamal just a kind of completely unsellable opponent for him in May of this year. But they seem to think, you know, within the BBC universe that Canello was going to fight Benavides. And I'm not just exactly sure what's changed since then. I'm not sure if, look, I'm never going to say Canello was afraid of anybody. I don't believe he's afraid of anyone.

But, you know, Connella was also at the point in his career where he doesn't really have anything left to prove. Like, I'm not of the opinion, Keith, that his legacy is going to be forever tarnished if he doesn't fight David Benavides. think he's accomplished enough up until this point. And let's be real here. What Canello is doing right now, or least what we think he's doing,

where he's kind of handpicking who he's going to fight in the final chapter of his career, it is a tried and true method by a lot of fighters, including Floyd Mayweather, who did this in the twilight of his career. So I don't think his legacy is going to be tarnished, but I don't really understand the narrative that's coming from some people on the Canello side

where it's, like, we'd take the fight. Nobody's offered us the fight. Like, it's just, it's a little bit crazy to be reading that he's not been offered a fight with David Benavides. And then check out your phone and see it coming from someone with the last name, Lukowitz, people in that family, saying that he's, he is getting offered this much money. He doesn't want to fight our guy. It just, there's such a disconnect between the two different stories that it's all really hard to figure out. It is, Chris. And like you said, I had heard a lot of the same things that the Benavides fight was going to be the third fight of this deal with PBC. They

clearly didn't have it in writing or we wouldn't be in this position. So I'm sure it was discussed as part of that three-fight agreement. But like we know, whether it's in the media business or the boxing business, if you don't have it in writing, well, good luck. So I'm not saying Canello is afraid of anyone either. And if he doesn't fight David Benavides, he's still going to you know, be a first ballot Hall of Famer. He's accomplished entirely too much, and he's taken a lot of challenges. You know, there was a time for quite some time, Chris, when people said he's afraid to fight Golovkin.

How long did that go on? And then, you know, he fights him and a lot of everyone thinks Golovkin won the first fight. He still fought him three times. You know, the third fight was way past its expiration date, of course. But he fought him three times, and he's taken out a lot of challenges and, you know, put himself at a disadvantage against Floyd Mayweather with the catchweight and all that when he was very young. I mean, he's always accepted the challenges and everything, but from a business standpoint, if you're DeZone and Matchroom or if you're PBC and Amazon, doesn't his asking price have to come down

at some point if you're not going to do the kind of business that makes any sense to pay him, let's just say, $35 million, $40 million, $45 million. You can't fight Edgar Berlanga and expect to be paid the same amount of money that you would be paid or comparable money that you would be paid to Terrence Crawford or David Benavides, it's just not, it doesn't make sense for the people who are shelling out the guarantees. So, yeah, how do you look at that? So let's start with Berlanga. Berlanga Canelo is a tough sell right now. No question. Berlanga did what he needed to do against McCrory. He knew he needed a big highlight, real knockout, and he got it. It wasn't, exactly what everyone was looking for. There was some sluggishness to the beginning of that

fight against McCrory. But sixth round lands a big right hand. Referey waves it off. That was what Edgar Berlanga was looking for and what he needed. I still don't think that the public at large, and this isn't exactly a hot take, but the public at large does not view Edgar Berlanga as competitive against Canelo Alvarez. Yes, he's undefarge. Yes, he's undefatly. beaten. He is highly rated. Technically, he is the WBA mandatory for Canelo Alvarez's 168 pound title. But he has not faced anyone even close to the level of Canelo Alvarez. McGrory was rated in the top three by the WBA, but nobody that watches boxing would have made Patrick McGrory a top three 168 pounders. So the hard part about making Canella Mungia, or Canella Berlanga, I should

in May is getting people to believe that this can be competitive. It's getting people to believe that the power of Burlanga is real and that he's ready for this type of opportunity. He'll sell it. No question. He will sell it. And the rivalry between Mexicans and Puerto Ricans, there's a natural fire to that, natural sizzle to that.

But Canelo is an elite pound-for-pound guy. Edgar Berlanga is not and really hasn't shown at this point that he has the talent to ultimately get there. So that is definitely a tough sell. I don't think Mungia is a tough sell at all. I think Mungia is a pretty easy sell. Is he the Benavides fight? No. But if you are making a list of potential opponents for Canelo Alvarez,

I would probably put Jaime Mungia second on that list. He is a former world champion at 54. He has been really good at three weight classes, and he's coming off a dominant knockout victory over an opponent in John Ryder who went the distance with Canello. So he's got some momentum going into that fight. Mungia has also been really active over the last few years. Say what you want about his opponents.

And criticism of many of them is certainly warranted. But Mungia has been out there. He has been visible. People have seen him score big victories. He's coming up. A fight of the year performance against Sergey Dervenchenko this past year. There's some momentum behind Jaime Mungia right now. And I think that fight could be a pretty fun fight between those two guys in the ring.

I think that fight is a firefight for as long as it. potentially last. So Burlanga, tough sell, Mungia, fairly easy sell, at least for May. So what do you make of this, this Canelo plan for 2024? The Mungia fight is certainly marketable, Chris. I mean, it's a palatable option for the paying public because Mungia, you know the storylines, you were there. He knocked out John Ryder, which Kenello couldn't do. He's undefeated. He clearly has a lot of flaws and would be a big underdog against Canelo. But like you said, he's a people's champion, so to speak, in Mexico, and he's from Tijuana, and he comes in mud and all that kind of, all that stuff

makes sense. And it's a marketable fight, especially if it's on Cinco de Mayo weekend or Mexican Independence Day weekend, a sellable fight for sure. So if he winds up fighting him on May 4th and then weighs his options, I don't know, maybe he, I'm sure Desone is going to want more of a commitment than one fight from him. It's his own match, match room, wherever he's working with. They'll want more than a one-fight commitment from him, but he could kind of just go back and forth if he wants and see how much money he can get out of whomever and fight, you know, whatever, whichever fights makes sense for him. So if it's Mungia and May, I wouldn't say that the public at large would love it, but it's somewhat acceptable, right? I mean, it's an undefeated guy. He's a Mexican. It's on Cinco de Mayo weekend. He knocked out, John, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

That somewhat makes sense. But then the Berlanga fight is going to be a tough sell. And I don't have anything against Edgar Berlanga. He's a very tough kid. And he fought well after a slow start on Saturday and came back and everything. What would Canello be favored over Edgar Berlanga going into their fight? It would be pretty big. It would be double digits.

I mean, and rightfully so. It's a hard fight to sell. He is undefeated and he's a big, strong kid. everything, but I don't think many people would tell you with a straight face that he has a real chance to be Canello. No, the, and look, I don't, you know, Canello would be a big favor against Jaime Mungia as well, but you can kind of see how a Mungia fight would be more competitive because Mungia does throw a lot of punches.

And in the past, that's been something that's been effective against Kinella. If you're going to engage, throw a lot of punches, Canello is no longer the combination puncher he once was. He kind of loads up more, looks for that one big counter shot. That, Mungia, I think, would be a more competitive fight as long as it lasts. I think eventually Kadella would get to him. But it would be a fun fight and a competitive fight for, I think, a little while. I just don't, I think Edgar Berlanga can get there, maybe to the point where he's worthy of that opportunity.

It's just right now, you know, even though he's undefeated, even though he's coming off a knockout win, it's just going to be hard to sell that Berlanga can hang in there with Canello. And Chris, as you well know, you've discussed it many times. You know how this all went. Berlanga and Mungia were supposed to fight each other to quote on earn the right to fight Canelo. Now, if Berlango would have fought Mungia and beat Mungi, you'd say, okay, well, you know, why not Berlango, right? And in fairness to both of them, they are going to come to fight.

So whether he fights Mungia, Langon May 4th, while I don't think Burlinga has much of a chance to win, he is going to come to fight, at least, whereas I don't know what Jamal Charlo was doing back in September, but he didn't really come to win the fight. So for whatever that's worth, I don't think it's worth $85 per se, but it's, you know, he will come. He'll try to win. Yeah.

And that's something Eddie Hearn has talked about in his conversations with Canello. He says that Canello has told him he wants to face guys that come to fight. I'm sure that Jermel Charlo fight was a little frustrating for him, because I think a lot of people coming into that fight thought Jermel would go at him. I thought Jermel would at least try to go out in his shield instead of just circling and boxing and trying to survive on the way to a wide decision loss. You're right. Berlangen and Mungia would certainly come to fight.

How do you think this impacts PBC? Like, they signed that Amazon deal. And there was a big announcement. There was talk of 12 to 14 events per year, a lot of paper reviews. It made some sense when you had Terrence Crawford under contract for potentially a rematch with Errol Spence. Maybe there could have been a fight with Canello down the line. You had Canello under contract for two fights.

Benevitez. You had some options there when it came to paper views. Now, as we look at the PBC landscape, you've got a pay-per-view coming up on March 30th. You've got Tank Davis set to fight Frank Martin, presumably that's. a Amazon pay-per-view. Where does this leave them now? That Canello is out the door, at least for now, and it sure seems like Terrence Crawford is out the door, at least for now.

I'm not sure about Crawford. So I'd like to say there's at least a chance that he would fight on the BBC platform, and if he does, of course, it's going to be on pay-per-view. Who would he fight? Well, who knows at this point, I guess? And he's not going to wait around for the winner of Tim Zoo and Keith Thurman. because we're already going on, what is it, eight months, nine months since he fought, that's eight, seven months, eight, whatever it is.

I mean, we'll be past a year by the time he gets back in the ring. He fought in July of 2023. We're going to be right there by the time he, you know, we see Terrence Crawford fight once again. And that's unfortunate, Chris, because, I mean, he, he should have been, it's not Terrence Crawford's fault that whatever happened with Spence's eye and everything. he should have been able to build on this momentum, this career-defining performance and everything, because he's since turned 36 years old, you would have liked to have seen him have fought by now

or have a fight scheduled by now at the very least. So that's a shame from Crawford's perspective. But you're right, though, in that how many pay-per-view fighters do they have? Are they going to start building pay-per-view, stacking pay-per-view shows the way that they did this card here? because ideally this would be on Amazon Prime, right? Yeah. Ideally.

But at least the co-feature, some people are looking at as the most interesting fight on the card. I don't know necessarily. Keith Thurman never fights, of course. I mean, he's fought one time since he fought Mani Paki almost five years ago. So or twice, I guess. But should he be an 11-to-one underdog against Tim Zhu? I don't know. Yes. Yes. I think it should even be higher. Honestly, I think I said this to you at one point after this was announced. I don't see any pathway to victory for Keith Thurman. Zero. None. I think he's going to be on his bike for most of this fight. I think Tim Zhu has dramatically improved over the last couple of years. He is a much better fighter. He is a natural 154 pounder. Keith Thurman, in addition to being inactive, has dealt with hand injuries. He hasn't had a knockout quite sometime. I don't see how he's going to hurt.

Tim Zoo. I don't see how he's going to outbox Tim Zoo. I think he's going to be backfoot the entire time trying to move away. And I don't see any scenario where he's able to pick up a decision fighting that way. So yeah, I mean, you asked like he's going to be 11 to 1. Yes, I think absolutely he should be 11 to 1. Hot take for Manix. You tell me then, what is Keith Thurman's path to victory here? Are you seeing something less than I am in Tim Zoo? Because ever since the Tony Harrison fight, I have seen growth in Tim Zhu. He is becoming a better fighter every single time. And as inactive as Keith Thurman has been, Tim Zoo's been active. Timu has not been waiting around for his opportunities. He has been getting in the ring.

He has been fighting. And he has been beating quality guys. Like the win over Mendoza, look, Mendoza, you can say, got lucky one shot against Fondora, still landed that punch. And Tim Zoo put a hellacious beating on him. Didn't pick up a knockout in that fight,

but put a beat down on Mendoza. That was more about Mendoza's chin than it was. but any issues with Tim Zhu's power. I think Tim Zhu is starting to really become a top fighter in this weight class. Chris, he had a great year last year. No two ways about it. The Tony Harrison win was very convincing.

That was his first win of the year. I'm not going to give him too much credit for what he did with Carlos Acampo exactly. Correct. Stay busy, though. You know, like get out. Keep getting out. June. I'll give him credit for that.

And he fought three times last year, which no one does basically at his level at this point. This isn't really, this isn't a criticism of Tim Zhu. I just thought 11 to 1, it's like Keith Herman, while he's been inactive and he's mostly been a welterweight or exclusively has been a welterweight since he was a 52 pounder as an amateur, he's not a bum. I mean, 11 to 1 is like he has zero chance whatsoever to win, which you seem to think that he doesn't, which I understand. I do.

And look, Keith, you know, I know people say, you know, they always try to like double back and, but I would say I love Keith Thurman. Like, I've been down to that St. Petersburg gym. I have hung out with him. His staff, he's got a great backstory. And for a while, I thought he had a chance to really do something special in his career. After the wins over Danny Garcia, the win over Sean Porter. He had a moment.

And he was doing those fights on, I think both of them are on CBS, right? Like he was doing, you know, putting himself out there in front of a big audience. And then the inactivity came about the injuries were obviously a problem. But Keith, you know this. Thurman also lost a little bit of his fire. He didn't have the same passion anymore. over the last few years they did when he was coming up. I think Tim Zhu has that passion.

I think Tim Zhu is like what Keith Thurman was before the first fight he had with, before the fights he had with Garcia and with Sean Porter. I think that's what Keith Thurman is running into, and he's running into a bigger version of himself back then. Yeah, and he's six years younger. And like you said, he's a natural junior middleweight, the bigger guy. You know, Keith Thurman is, I think it is actually one time. Since he fought Paci, I believe his only fight is against Mario Barrios.

Arios, yeah. I think I'm remembering because he fought Joseito Lopez in the fight before Pacquiao. So he's only fought one time in almost five years. So yeah, I get it, Chris. But be that as it may, what I was starting to say, because we kind of went off traction. It became a Thurman Zoo preview right here. If they're going to stack pay-per-views in the way that they did with this March 30th card, because the Fondoro fight is a very interesting fight, too.

That's going to be an all-action fight. I don't know so much about the Lara Zarafa fight, but there are four fights on the pay-per-view. There's two interesting fights on the – anytime Elijah Garcia fights, I want to see it. He's good. This year, absolutely. And Kyron Davis is going to come to fight. He's fighting at middleweight in a way class that he belongs, unlike when he fought David Benavides.

So you have a couple of fights on Amazon Prime, and then you go to the four-fighting pay-per-view. Again, ideally, it would be on prime. It would be on prime video. But these fights are expensive, and sometimes the business model doesn't work that way. So it's on pay-per-view, and people are free to either buy it or ignore it or whatever they want. But the question you ask is, what are they going to do with their pay-per-views, being that Jervante Davis is the only real proven guy, unless Crawford is in the mix, because Crawford could have a line of pay-per-view as well. But let's just hope for the sake of boxing fans that there are less pay-per-views. Maybe that's, you know, maybe there's one.

Well, that brings us back, Keith, to what Amazon wants, right? Like, and what you hear from, you know, frankly, from people that don't necessarily know is that Amazon's looking to be more a distributor than they are being, they are a provider, right? Like in years past, PBC has had, Al Heyman has had HBO backing him, showtime backing him. I don't think, at least that's not the sense I'm getting, that Amazon is backing PBC in the exact same way. So if you do not have that well of license fee money to go to and you're bankrolling yourself effectively,

it's challenging. It's challenging to put on these non-paper-view fights, the interest people. I mean, it was challenging enough, quite frankly, last year with Showtime. Like, their pay-per-views were excellent last year. great year for Showtime on Paperview. The championship boxing shows, they were nothing. They were nothing.

You didn't get much of anything at all from that. So I guess it depends on what kind of investment BBC is going to get from Amazon this year. Because if it's just a distributor model where they're going to do RevShare and they're going to be a partner in that effect, I think it's going to be incredibly difficult to put on non-paperview fights, good ones. If there's some money behind it, well, that's a different story. Amazon is one of the richest companies on the planet. And they have one of the widest distributions on the planet. If they get behind something, they can blow it up.

I just don't know what Amazon is looking to do with a sport like this. Right. And there's some trial and error on Amazon's part here. They want to see how it goes. There's certainly less money available to the PBC through their partnership with Amazon than there was with Showtime. We know that for sure. And previously with HBO, but they'll just have to make it work.

I mean, fighters are going to have to lower their financial expectations and such. and hopefully we'll get some good fights on Prime as well because they can't push every fight to pay-per-view because people are just not going to pay for that many paper-view fights. So it's going to be interesting to see how this first year of the deal goes. And like I said, Chris, if it means that there are less pay-per-views, well, who would come? That goes for everybody.

That goes for DeZone, Amazon, ESPN. The less pay-per-views, the better it is for the fans, obviously, but some fights have to go to that platform because they're just too expensive. And there are only so many fights that are going to go to Saudi Arabia because sooner or later, that money is going to dry up because it's just not sustainable in the long term to just overpay for all these fights to bring them there to promote tourism in Saudi Arabia. It's great while it's lasting now and everything. I'm not saying there won't be some fights in Saudi Arabia. They're not going to grossly overpay for every fight from now until the end of time.

And this is going to end at some point. So, no, and the Saudis want to be, the Saudis want to be in the big fight business, right? And there's only so many of them. And the number of big fights they can get up for and invest in are, many of them are probably going to be done in the first half for the first three quarters of this year. You've got the B-Bel-Betterby-F fight presumably happening in June. Let's hypothetically say they can make a Fury Anthony Joshua fight in August or September. after that, what is there? Like a rematch with Fury and Joshua, if it's good,

did they want to get in the Canelo business at some point? I don't know. But to your point, I don't see Saudi Arabia putting on, you know, featherweight title fights. I don't think that's, they're going to be, you know, leaning in to Showtime or HBO level fights. You know, Chris, because even if in effect you print money, which they seemingly do over there with the oil money and everything, you're going to want some return on your investment at some point. You're not just going to keep throwing money. all over the place at whatever.

I mean, what are we going to have Canello against Christian and Bealey in Riyadh? Like, at some point. I'm thinking more, I'm thinking more Canello Williams-Skull in Riyadh, Keith. I'm thinking that's the match. The IBF is going to call a mandatory. The IBF is, once they're done with this Philip Hercovich stuff and the heavyweight scene, they're going to call that mandatory baby. And William Skull, who is the most deserving mandatory challenger I've ever seen, ever seen.

he's going to get that opportunity. Not since Avni Yildrum, have I seen a challenger more worthy than... What was that guy's name that Marad Haqar that Hopkins fought in Philadelphia that time? I mean, this is on the level of that. That guy literally... Cracks me up. I was there that night in Philadelphia when Hopkins, you know, it's hometown and all the kind of stuff. And he was already...

Hopkins almost 40 years old then. And I was there that night. That dude, he was from France. He literally ran around. He was running around the ring. Like it was a track meet. Like not Jermel Charlo type running. Not that.

Not whatever people, Germain Ortiz did, which was more boxing than running, I thought. But he was literally running. He was running away from Bernard Hopkins. It was crazy. I love it. I love it.

You know, we joke. But if Saudi Arabia wanted to put on a Canelo fight, which I think they do, I could see them putting on that William Skull fight. I really could. You know, as part of a bigger, like, Day of Reckoning 2, let's call it. Like if they did the same thing in late December of 2024, I could see Canelo being on that card

and making a lot of money to have a very light touch of a title defense. If Canelo fights William Skull on anywhere on Earth, whether it's Saudi Arabia or Las Vegas or wherever, I don't know that I'll be able to come on the podcast because my head is so let's hope we don't get at that point. Keith, you are very anti, what is he, he's Cuban, right? Cuban turned German. Is that what he, like, I think he's. Whatever, whatever his ethnicity, it has nothing to do with his ethnicity, his lack of qualifications to be in the ring with Canello Alvarez. So, that's not, hey, that is not what the IBF says. He's the number one contender.

Come on. Respect the sanctioning bodies. I do. Respect them. They know what they're talking about. William Scull deserves that mandatory shot. All right. Last thing I want to talk about.

We have the Devin Haney, Ryan Garcia, press conference in New York this past week. I love this fight because I love that two guys in their mid-20s are facing off. And both these guys probably could have gone different directions. Most notably, Ryan Garcia, and let's be real, Ryan did try to go a different direction. He tried to make the Roller-Romero fight happen.

That didn't happen. But I give Ryan a lot of credit for pivoting to doing a fight against Devin Haney, which is an incredibly difficult fight because for a couple of reasons. One, Devin is peaking right now. Devin, to me, is a top five pound-for-pound guy. At worst, he's a top 10 pound-for-pound guy. He has had a terrific multi-year run. Last year, the winner of Wilmachenko, people can say he lost, whatever.

It was competitive. Sometimes competitive fights are really close. They can go one way or the other. I had no issue whatsoever with Haney getting. the decision in that fight. Then he goes, and his first fight at 140 and wipes out, Regis Pro Greig. Complete shutout, wins every round, gets a knockdown the third round, brilliant in that fight. So Devin Haney is at his best right now. My question going into this fight is where is Ryan Garcia? Because yes, he did rebound from the Gervante Davis loss

with a knockout win over Oscar Duarte. But that was not some kind of flawless performance. There were issues with Ryan in that fight when it came to whatever shoulder roll defense he was utilizing at some point during that fight. He was getting hit a little bit in that fight. Eventually, his power took over, got the knockout. That's all that matter. But you can't say, no one can say, that Ryan Garcia is peaking as a fighter right now. He is still a work in progress with Derek James. And when you're going into a fight against someone like Devin Haney, you've got to be sure.

You've got to be on your game and on point. And my concern is that Ryan Garcia is not there. Still's got the power. It can still hurt Devin Haney. I think their amateur experience, the six fights the times they fought in the amateurs, as recently I think is when they were 16 years old. I think that will give Ryan some sense of what he's in for in these fights. But I just think Devin is a well-oiled machine right now.

And I'm not so sure what Ryan Garcia is. So how do you see this fight early on? You know, well, Devin Haney seems to think that Ryan Garcia, at 25 years old, is cashing out by taking this fight because, you know, he didn't really seem, it seemed like he was going to fight Roli Romero and then presumably win the WBA title and make it a unification fight. So Haney seems to think that Ryan Garcia doesn't really want this fight. He was kind of forced into it because whatever happened happened with the Romero negotiations and now he's left to fight someone else. So, well, I would say, Keith, like, look, Ryan immediately called for this fight after Haney B. Progray. Like, the Romero stuff was, you know, came on a little bit later on. As Devin likes to say, you go on a jog with Floyd and you are suddenly challenging Roller Romero for his title.

Haney makes a good point there, right? I mean, he said to him, he does. Maybe you'll go on another, he actually said during the press, you know, obviously you moderated. He said it a few times. He said it a few times. He said it a few times. He said another job with Floyd, you might pull out of the fight, you know. He said it on ESPN.

He said it during our face off. He said that a lot. He said, I heard jog with Floyd enough to last me. And Ryan Garcia said, well, that was actually a good one. So he gets it, you know. Yeah. But I do think Ryan Garcia, however they got to this point, deserves credit as well. Because Haney deserves more credit than anyone in boxing at this point,

the way that he's going about his career, taking tough fights, going from promoter and platform to promoter and platform to get the fights that he wants for the most money possible, but taking. tough, tough fights. He deserves a... He's a model for young fighters. And really unprecedented that fighters are willing to operate this way, the way him and his dad have gone about it.

But Ryan Garcia deserves some credit too here, Chris. I mean, within a little less than a calendar year, he'll have fought Gervante Davis and Devin Haney. I mean, the kid deserves a lot of credit for that. I mean, however, people thought he went out against Jervante Davis. Devin Haney keeps calling

him acquitter, got caught with a body shot. Seems to have, I'm not excusing. anything for him, but he seems to have come into the ring compromised with a rib injury. Jermonte Davis knew that, I think, and exploited it. So he looked decent against Duarte. The shoulder roll thing was sort of perplexing, and we've had some theories as to why he was doing that.

But he got to win, he got a knockout win, and now he goes and takes another tough fight. So within the course of 12 months, he will have fought three times against two guys who are on most people's pound-for-pound list. So what more do you want from the kid than that? Now, if he happens to lose to Devin Haney, I'm sure he's the underdog going into the fight, if he loses these two fights, you know, that's a tough stretch. But he fought the fights that he always said that he wanted. He's not one of these guys.

Whatever people think about Ryan Garcia, because he's a polarizing kid, lives his life on social media, tends to say some goofy things sometimes. But the kid delivered on what he said he wanted. He said he wanted to fight Gervante Davis, and he fought. him however the fight went. He said he wanted to fight Devin Haney. He's now fighting him. So he deserves a lot of credit as well. Yeah. And look, we don't need to go back in time, but that Javanta Davis fight doesn't happen unless Ryan Garcia makes it happen. Ryan Garcia agreed to the catchweight. Ryan Garcia agreed to the financial terms. Ryan Garcia agreed to pretty much everything.

Some of it, his promoter pushed back against pretty hard. But he agreed to pretty much everything to make that fight happen. And I think he deserves a lot of credit for that. I do think he has a chance. He also made $30 million, so let's not forget that. That's true, too. Nice bank roll for that. And look, he's going to make a lot of money for this fight as well. Not $30 million, but it's a pay-per-view. If it pops, he's going to make a boatload of cash for this as well.

And to me, Keith, even if he loses, he's like one or two fights away from being right back on top. Like Ryan Garcia has a fan base. Ryan Garcia has a fan-friendly style. Ryan Garcia, you know, even if it goes the way some people are already predicting, which is a wide decision win for Devin Haney. I don't think that that's the end of Ryan Garcia. In fact, I think he's still way ahead of most of these guys who are not taking these big fights.

I like his mindset in making these fights happen. I think he's backed up against the eight ball, backed up on the corner, rather, against Devin Haney. And I think he's going to have a tough time with Devin Haney's skill set. But even if, doesn't go his way. I think there's a pathway for him to rebuild and get back into the top of the boxing game. Yeah, because

Chris, he's only 25 years old. Now, if he gets violently knocked out by Devin Haney, which is probably an unlikely outcome. Yeah. Oh, Bill Haney's promising first round knockout, Keith. I mean, I'm ready for it. Ryan said he retire. Ryan said he retire. He would retire if he got knocked out in the first round. So, but

if he, you know, let's say he loses a unanimous decision, 116, 112 across the board or something like that. Yeah, his career is not over. He will have lost two fights that he wanted. But, you know, he's a very popular guy. I mean, and he has a fan base outside of the typical boxing fan, which not many fighters do. So he'll be able to cash in on that. As long as his performance, you know, if he loses 120 to 108 and gets embarrassed, well, that wouldn't be good for business, obviously. But short of that, I think, yeah, he could rebuild himself. And again, he won't be 26 years old, I think, until the summer.

or so this is a young guy, man, still in his physical prime. And he can punch. I favor Devin Heaney. I expect Devin Haney to win the fight, but it's not like Ryan Garcia doesn't have any chance whatsoever. He's got very fast hands. He's not nearly as disciplined or as cerebral as Devin Haney and not as proven because look who Haney's beaten and how he's beaten them.

The Lomachenko fight could have gone the other way, I think. But he's accepted every challenge imaginable. And the way he beat Regis Progray, It was a fighter I have a lot of respect for it, too, Chris. You know, Regis Progray is a dog, man. And he went in there and he didn't beat Regis Progray. He embarrassed him. And I didn't see that coming.

Yeah, could I have seen him out boxing him and winning a decision? Sure, but not like that. I mean, he knocked Regis Progris. He knocked the puncher down. He took the fight to the puncher. He was the bigger, stronger guy in the ring. And that performance was career-changing for him in many ways. weighs reputation changing for him. And he's one of the best young fighters in the sport,

you know, arguably a top five pound for pound guy now. And kudos to him again, I can't say it enough, Chris. I mean, you know, the way him and his father have gone about this the last couple of years is nothing short of remarkable and really a blueprint that other fighters should follow. Yeah. Look, he's not waiting for that one big payday. He's not biding his time waiting for something big to pop. He is staying busy. He's taking tough challenges. He's not running away from challenges when he had the option to fight George Cambosis,

but he had to go to Australia. He went twice. Got a lot of money for that. Don't get me wrong. First title defense against Lomachenko steps up, fights Regis Progrey. If he beats Ryan Garcia on April 20th, wouldn't surprise me to see him in with someone like Super Al-Battias before the end of the year.

Maybe they can do a fight with the winner of Roli-Romera versus Esau-Cruz. depending on what happens on the PBC side of the street. He's going to keep fighting. He's probably going to keep winning. He's going to make a lot of money, and he's going to build a Hall of Fame resume. He's on the path key. He's right there.

With all these early fights, before he turns 26 years old, he is right there on that path to being a great in the sport. And I give him a lot of credit for doing that as well. He and his father of Bill is his trainer, and he's an excellent trainer, but he won manager of the year

from the boxing riders this year. and I think he deserved that because of the job he's done, you know, guiding his son's career. Keith, good stuff, man. Always appreciate it. And make sure we do this again real soon. Thanks for the time, Chris. Appreciate it, man. And when we come back, my conversation with Ray Ford.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all. in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along, the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that

don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new

week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to Stuff to Bo Your Mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Raymond Ford is an undefeated, 126-pound contender on Saturday. He will fight for his first world title, which takes on Audubach Kalamatov for the vacant 126 pound belt in Verona, New York.

This fight you can watch live on ESPN. And Ray, I was around your promoter, Eddie Hearn, last week. He's very excited for you for this fight, in part because you could become the first fighter that matchroom has taken from its pro debut to a world title. I know that means something to them. Does that mean anything to you? Yeah, it definitely means a lot to me being,

being one of the first ones that he signed over in the U.S., I know a lot of guys been, you know, dropped or, you know, they took losses and, you know, they fell off. But, you know, being one of the ones that's still here is still going and fighting for my first world title, it definitely means a lot to me. You know, you've been campaigning at 126 for a number of years now. When Lee Wood beat Josh Warrington last year, did you think that you were never going to get a chance to fight for a belt of this weight class?

No, I didn't think it was going. I knew what was going on behind closed. doors. I knew my shot was coming. I just had to, you know, wait and wait until, you know, these other little fights was going through. So, yeah. So you knew back then that Lee was likely to vacate that belt and move up? Exactly. I knew, I knew everything. Like I said, like, I said, like everything behind closed doors, I was being told from my team. You know, certain fighters were scared of certain fighters. I'm not going to say who was scared of who, but certain fighters were scared, and certain people didn't want to fight certain people.

So I knew my time was coming. Well, give me a little taste of who didn't want to fight, who, Ray? Who didn't want any part of you going into that fight? No, it wasn't. I don't think it was really me. I think it was the guy that I'm fighting that people were scared of. So it took somebody for, like, me, with the skill set that I have, with the confidence that I have to, you know,

and especially, you know, fighting this long, waiting for my right-tidal shot. I definitely wasn't going to pass up on it. And, yeah, so I can't speak on for anybody or stuff. So you've seen Kolmatov fight. You've watched, I'm sure, some of his fights. You know, 12 wins, 11 knockouts. He's got that glossy resume.

What do you think of him? I think he's an okay fighter. I think his resume isn't that good. But he's hyped up to be. be this, you know, this Syrigate Kovov, a monster. So, yeah, yeah, that's all I really think of him. Do you think he has those qualities, or do you think he's been untested at the level you're at?

Um, to be honest, I really don't even, like, really remember how Kulav's fight. I really paid too much attention to him, but, um, as far as his, yeah, I don't think he's, um, I don't think he's really tested for it for him. So I've been able to watch a lot of your fights, most of your fights up at this point, call many of your fights in your career. And I want to go back to 2002 when you beat Edward Vasquez in Phoenix. That was a more competitive, I think, than expected fight. I think a lot of people thought Vasquez deserved more credit on the scorecards.

You responded to that fight with three straight wins. and they were all emphatic wins. You had one knockout, you had two wide decisions. As your level of competition went up, you got a lot better. Did something change for you after that Vasquez fight, given how close it was and maybe how the outcome played out? Yeah, my mentality changed, and I changed a lot of things in my camp. So I started to go away from home, get away from distractions,

and do my camps away from home and really lock in. do everything I'm supposed to do in camp. So that's what already changed. Was it a wake-up call of sorts for you? Yeah, it definitely was a wake-up call for me. I think I was probably, you know, feeling like guys at that level, I probably didn't take them as serious as I should have been.

Being, though, like, I don't know. Sometimes you can get a little big-headed when you're young and you being talked about and everything like that. So I kind of wasn't, like, really taking my opponent. serious at that time. And how have you felt about the way it's gone since then? I mean, you go to New York, you get a dominant win, you get a knockout in your next fight. The next time you're fighting Magdalano, the most accomplished guy they faced at that point.

These fights haven't really been close, you know, over the last three fights. Like, how much different have you felt, and in what ways have you felt different? Physically and mentally, I've been feeling different. As I say, I leave in camp. I'm going into these fights with a clear head. I'm in the best shape as I can be in. I'm putting the right food in my body. I'm making weight the proper way now.

It's a lot of different things that. It's a lot of small things that I'm doing that really count that I really didn't take heed to, like, you know, early on in my career, I ain't really, you know, take it serious. So now that I know, and I know my body need to be treated properly, everything that I'm doing now is just, I'm, I can say I'm a real professional athlete, now. You know, one of your training partners is Shakur Stevenson. We've seen the videos on your YouTube, you know, leading up to this fight of you and

Shakur down there. Tell me about that relationship. How did that relationship start? Shakur, that's my brother. That's really like my big brother for real. Since the amateurs, I've been knowing Shakur. He'd been giving me pointers and things like that since I was on the, like, the USA team. He would come to the gym and watch me spar and stuff like that.

that and he'll send me a text after I was spar like, bro, I think you should start doing this, start working on this, you great at this, start using this, more things like that. And I just been locked in with him ever since. And I've been doing kents with his cousin, Terey Stevenson. That's like my, he pretty much like a jack of all trades. He do everything in camp. And, you know, Chaucor is right there beside him, you know, watching me sparring and still giving me partners. and things like that.

I can call Shakur and ask him anything. He'll always be there for me. So that's like my big brother. How much sparring have you gotten in with him personally? I can imagine if you did, those have got to be pretty high-level sparring matches. Yeah, for sure. We definitely, we got some good rounds in this camp. I also got rounds in with Zake Quinn, Moses.

That's his other little cousin. He's real sharp and helping me out this old camp. But over the years of me and Shakur's sparring, I couldn't even tell you how many rounds. It's been a lot. What's been his biggest piece of advice for you in facing someone that's a puncher like your opponent? Socorr told me the step-toe. Is that a good idea?

That's a great idea. I think this is a three-division world champion, silver medalist in the Olympics, who has a very high IQ. So anything that he say is definitely good. advice. You know, when I was calling Richardson Hitchens' fight against Jose Zepeda about three or four months ago down in Orlando, I noticed one of the Hitchens' friends was on the phone on the ring apron, and he was definitely talking to Shakur Stevenson. So is Chikor Stevenson going to be advising you from the phone during this fight? No, I think Shakur can be at my phone.

So you'd be able to hear him from ringside if he needs to offer any advice up. Yeah. One last things I want to ask you is, you know, I've known how tough it's been for you to make 126 over the years. You're a young guy, you're a growing guy, you're destined for 1.30 and above sooner rather than later. Do you look at this fight as a one-off, you know, win the title and move up, or, you know, are you open to whatever comes in the future? It could be.

It depends on the opportunities that I get after this fight. whether I get a high-paid fight or a unification or both, you understand. So it really depends. But if none of those options are on the table, I'm definitely moving up. How has making the weight this time around been for you? I feel like I get asked this question about every time I fight. But making a wait is fun, like I always say. It's always fun making a week.

Hey, in fairness, I run into your guys in fight weeks all the time. And they're always like, man, tough to make 126. I see Brian Peters, tough to make 126, might move up sooner. So it's coming. I know it's hard. I mean, you're a big guy and you're a young guy. You're going to eventually move up and wait. Yeah, for sure.

For sure. Well, Ray, good luck on Saturday, man. Going for your first world title. It's a very cool experience. And I hope for the best for you, man. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Appreciate you.

Good. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Keith Eidek and Ray Ford for joining the show. As always. Subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast, and I'll see you next week. Thank you so much. I go sleep. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement home. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all?

You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen and learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.