The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Devin Haney Sounds Off

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

Joining Mannix this week for a State of Boxing discussion is longtime boxing promoter Lou DiBella. Mannix and DiBella discuss where boxing broadcasting is headed, the challenge with growing stars, Mike Tyson's upcoming fight against Jake Paul, if Netflix will become a presence in boxing, Ryan Garcia's downward spiral and more. Later, Devin Haney joins with his reaction to Garcia's social media behavior, how he's preparing for the fight, more. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes.

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resources. This is boxing with Chris Manich. Or somebody, punch him in the face. Amity Joshua is a composed and ferocious finisher. Watch this. Hosted by S.I's Chris Manix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance.

Here's Chris Manich. And we are back. Boxing with Chris Manix, part of the volume sports podcast. one welcome in, as always, all the people subscribed to the podcast feed. If you are not a subscriber, get over to the boxing with Chris Maddox feed, hit that subscribe button, make sure you get this pod and every one of our pods in your feed every single week. So, great episode for you coming up.

In Las Vegas, over the last couple of days, while I was there to call the Williams Apata Maxi Hughes fight, which was another fantastic performance by Williams-A-Pa-D. I got a chance to catch up with a couple of people. One was Lou DeBella, the longtime boxing promoter, former executive at HBO. I like to talk to Lou about the state of boxing every six, seven months or so. Lou always has good insight into what's going on in boxing right now, where boxing is headed. So we sit down and had one of those conversations in Las Vegas. I also popped into Devin Haney's gym, Haney, of course, training for the fight April 20th against Ryan

Garcia. He still believes that's going to happen. I'm hopeful it's going to happen, but a lot still up in the air. So I talked to Devin about everything he's seen out of Ryan Garcia over these last couple of weeks and kind of what his mindset is as he tries to stay focused amid all the distraction about this fight. So stick around for that. Great conversation with Devin Haney. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. A lot to get you on this episode. So let's jump right in. Here's my conversation with Lou Debella.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

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And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs?

Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so... Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes, I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years. from black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Lou DeBella, boxing hall of famer, minor league baseball owner. I prefer a presario, but go ahead. Presario.

I kind of think of you, though, as boxing's ombudsman. You know, people have said that for a long time, because, you know what, the truth of matter is there was a period of time that I was early in my career for a long time. time. I think at the period of time where HBO had no exclusive contracts and we were spending more money than anybody else. But we got along with Showtime and we got along with the other people in the marketplace, ESPN, USA Network, were our friends. And there were no exclusive deals, as I said. By virtue of having the biggest checkbook and being the quality control person for HBO boxing, I sort of was. And I never, my promise with the WBA, for example, that I have right now in 2024,

I had when I was at HBO with Goberto Mendoza Jr.'s father, Gilberto Sr. I was motherfucking them all the time. We respected each other, but I've always had a problem with the system. I think the system of judging that's why one of the things I hope we talk about is the number of judges

at the Ustik fight, because I want to tell you something. I know Maricio, and like his dad and I went to war many times, right? But I respected the man, and I thought his heart for boxing and for fighters was in the right place. I think Maricio in that sense, is a chip off the old block.

But there's systems still broken and unfair and completely fucked up. And he's, you know, it is what it is. You know, the idea, I get what he's saying. And maybe the thought more people will be, there's more consensus. No, when you're going to conventions in the rating of the organization

where the A side's delivering all the money and the judge knows what the organization, who they really need to win. And then who's doing checks and balances? Why are bad judges constantly, being reappointed. By the way, if bad judges constantly get reappointed, don't you assume that maybe because they're advancing an agenda, right? There's a problem with the whole system. The whole system needs to be fixed. And we're off. We're off to the races, babe. We're up to the rest.

You mentioned your time at HBO. You controlled a pretty big budget there. Obviously, you can't anticipate streaming, but what would you have thought of the money being spent on boxing now when you were at HBO? I would have been surprised that the zone as an entity would have the tolerance for pain that they've had. I'm not surprised at ESPN. They're going to make the judgment about whether they're getting bang on the buck on the ESPN deal. But ESPN's professionals, when it comes to TV product, then how to do a production. And they're very low-cost programming, boxing stuff, compared to all the other shit.

So now I know everyone knows top rank steel is going to run out Whatever I have no idea what's going to happen I would imagine they'll continue to have some role with the SPN I'm surprised by there's a lot of stuff going on in boxing right now From Saudi Arabia to Streaming services to pay-per-views that I just don't particularly believe Is a sustainable business model and the funny part is the stuff we're going through right now Isn't really building the sport up

There's money being spent and his money being made. But the sport's certainly not being built up. Right. And as golf is learning and everybody else is learning, yeah, I mean, Turkey Aval Shik has been a shot in the arm to heavyweight boxing particularly. And say what you will, they promoted their stuff

to a brilliant tea. And without them, God knows how inactive or heavyweight division would be. Right? But in the big scheme of things, a migration of big events to Saudi Arabia is not making boxing bigger. And in a zone with, particularly when it went with a very limited penetration in North America, isn't making boxing bigger, right?

So I think we're in a period of calm before the storm, I hope, actually, and in a period of transition where a new business model at some point very soon is going to have to emerge. You talked about growing boxing. By the way, PBS 2 and Al Heyman, you could see what's going on over there. No, no one should be sitting here. Al Hamon is too smart to be dead. Al Hamel will be out of boxing what he wants to be. Maybe he wants to be soon.

I don't know. But Al Hamon's not going to die. Thank you, Max. His business is not going to die until he says he wants to. You saw what happened with Canello. When they couldn't do a deal and made no sense, it appeared to make no sense. They weren't going to do a deal.

Canello looked elsewhere. He wound up settling apparently where he's going to settle. He's fighting Mungia, probably under the circumstances, when he's not going to fight Benavittes, he's not going to fight Crawford. Mungia's there. the guy that makes the most sense. And by the way, he's an older fighter. Maybe for the first time with Mungia peaking as a fighter right now, you could actually say this is the moment Mungia

might have a chance. HBO succeeded for many, many years at building stars. Yes. Can you build stars in 2024? Very hard because it's very hard to build stars on pay-per-view. You build stars on streaming. There's not enough penetration. You asked me, am I surprised by where we are in 24. I'm surprised at the money that's being spent for the results, for the results, because the money's not spent rationally. And whenever you're looking at any sport or any business and the money at a moment in time is not being spent rationally, you could assume the paradigm will change. Assume right now we're going through a paradigm change. And I think it's going to be a number of years until you see how it's going to shake out and who the players still are. I'm going to make bold

predictions. The biggest promotional companies in the world be vastly different in five years. I'm going to predict that there won't be four major ratings organizations and a couple a minor ones in five years. I think you're going to see a change in the whole paradigm. Aren't the ratings organizations kind of, and I say this as kindly as possible, kind of like cockroaches, like they never seem to die. The ratings organizations, if someone's going to take over the business and do it the right way and try to basically take almost the model that exists and scrape it and redo it, why are they going to need the WBA, the WBC, the IBF, the WBO, and the IBO or whoever? Why are they going to need them? They're really not. They're going to, if you have enough talent,

If you have enough talent, you make good, if you have enough fights, you can, at that point, you can have more control over your programming, and you can make your own belts, have your own championships that are legitimate. Hey, right now, let's face realities. You can have all the titles you want and all these organizations. If there still are, quote unquote, other side of the street elements to these deals, certain deals aren't happening because of the quote unquote side of the street, right? And it's been that way, any time you have sides of the street, which is why someone, Here's another thing. Paradine has to change for the major player in distribution. The major player in distribution has to care about it.

They have to take it seriously. They have to hire an ombudsman. They have to hire a quality control person. So you're talking about more than just budget, because the zone's putting a lot of money into boxing. You put enough money in it, but like, look, man, like in every other business that's unregulated, people are going to take advantage of the lack of regulation.

And even in a corporation, not having a quality control officer or a knowledgeable expert, is not having quality, you know, you are leaving yourself open to getting fucked. And that's what's been going on, you know? You mentioned the...

Hey, look, Dana White and those people in that UFC center down the road here, they micromanage their business. Fighters will come and go, but the way they do, say what surely you could complain about how the money's not, whatever. They exercise quality control. Well, that's more than a whatever, though. Say what the money, the money's not

what it is in boxing. Well, it's not No, yes, it is. Here's where I disagree. I actually think the middle class probably does better at UFC. In boxing, there is no... The high-end they don't do better. The problem is... Even low-end... There's a very small, high-ended boxing.

They're making all the money. And there's no... There's very good fighters that don't have platforms or a promoter with an exclusive deal are sort of out there floundering. Right? I think you're right. I think that there's a reason that you...

MMA fighters gravitate toward trying to call out boxers and make big boxing events. But it really is... only at the highest level when you've already a pop culture figure. The interesting part is they're getting paid less at UFC, and they're bigger pop culture figures. Easily. Right.

I mean, you know, no one knows. A lot of our champions can walk down the fucking street, no one knows who they are. You talked about the paradigm shifting. Right now, there are three major players in boxing broadcasting. You have got ESPN, you have got DeZone, and you've got Amazon, which is just making its entry. Can boxing grow with that distribution? You also have Netflix that's testing out of Mike Tyson. We'll get to that.

Yeah, but you have another, you know, that's potentially a player. Until Netflix. It's not a potential in straight boxing because the stuff that Amazon's going to do, this March 30th pay-per-view, it's not going to do a big number. No way, no how. Impossibility, not happening. And far fewer people will watch Canelo Alvarez against Mangia, then we'll watch Mike Tyson against Jake Paul.

That's a fact also. I'm sorry, what was the question? I mean, I'm talking about the penetration and the ability to do so with the current broadcast outlets. with the SPN, which has great market penetration. The interesting thing is you asked earlier about starmaking. As long as Top Rank has a lot of dates and could bring back certain fighters, they're better at Starmaking than anybody else. That's a fact.

And there's a reason why Edgar Berlanga, who I don't think could fight, I sort of think he's a fraud. But you know what? He was built in a good place where he was knocking out, you know, I don't want to call anybody a busboy because it's a disrespected boxing to brave people. But he was knocking out people that were hand-picked. and as soon as he started stepping up to better people, you saw a more limited fighter.

But Berlanga, by the way, he has Star Appeal. He knocked people out in front of a lot of people on ESPN. There's a reason why Eddie signed them and put him on the zone. Right? I mean, you know, fighters are not built on pay-per-view. Paperview is the end game, right? Fighters have to be built where there are more eyeballs. And that's the advantage of an ESPN.

The question is, has the money resulted in what you would have expected? and across the board from PBC land to ESPN land to, and I can make an argument ESPN at least is building more stars. But even there, you can go across the board and go to anywhere. Look at what's going on out there

and you'll see basically the money you can't justify it. Well, ESPN should be able to build stars as easily or better than HBO, right? They have deeper market penetration. They are the worldwide leader. Other than a couple of times a year, they're still spending.

They don't have the same. We were doing $80 million worth of shows. I don't know. I think their budget might be somewhere similar, but it was a different world back then, by the way. There was a competition was different. Yeah, less fragmented. Less fragmented.

And also the proliferation of big sports on every day of the week and big outlets of NBA and NFL being, you know, we're going to be in a situation before 2025. by NBA is going to be on NFL is going to be on almost every night of the week almost every night of the week that's where we're heading to right so there's tremendous competition

for sports eyeballs in general right but yeah ESPN has a big wide audience and but ESPN's business model is changing also it's moving more toward a streaming model too you know it's supply and demand I don't think the overpayment will continue the way

it is because people are going to figure it out the numbers have to justify the license that numbers have Canelo's numbers have to be justified by something Canello has been greatly advantaged by being the only true true superstar in boxing

I'll go into like two being you know Giovante and a few other people but but you know Canello in his own category has allowed him to get payments that have been irrational by people who are not likely to get their money back

right because he symbolizes something in the sport he symbolizes you know He is the sports biggest star, and therefore the most powerful person. The most powerful person in boxing in 2024 is not the heavyweight champion of the world, which was the case for generations. It's Canelo Alvarez in 2024. So you mentioned Netflix.

I was on Twitter just before I came down to do this interview with you. And two things that were trending right now from Mike Tyson and Jake Paul. And we are four months away, Lou, from that fight even happening. Dude, it's lucky that I'm in Vegas and I'm actually like, medicating myself to enjoy my time here. I'm glad I'm in Vegas because the text messages I've gotten from my nephews and my nieces and my friends, kids, and my friends, all they want to ask me about is Mike Tyson. They're watching Mike's promos that are like as good as a wrestling promo.

They're watching Mike sit down on uppercuts. You know what? With all due respect, like Mike Tyson's one of the greatest fighters ever fucking lived, but it's easy to look good against the heavy bag. You know what I'm saying? Which Mike himself has said in the past. Of course. Please, Mike knows what this. Mike's a smart.

Dude, I don't give a shit how stone Mike is. I don't give a shit how many punches Mike has taken. People that realize about Mike Tyson, he's a well-read, pretty educated guy. Mike's not a stupid guy. Mike's a bright guy. Dude, Mike's promoting this fight beautifully right now. Right? Really, truly.

Yeah. He's on day three of his training camp. He's whacking away at the bag. I can see the few numbers. He's spending time and energy promoting this. So this event, though, which is the first. It's probably going to be, well, let's cut it out of two ways. It's probably going to be the most watched boxing event in decades.

I don't know what the numbers were in the 1980s. I heard some Tyson fights back then, did 30, 40 million people watching those fights. But at least since the 80s, this is going to be the most watch event. Is that a good thing? No, but it's not a terrible thing. The terrible thing is this. That the text messages I'm getting and the calls I'm getting are treating it like a real fight. And I haven't even heard the rules of engagement.

Is this a real fight or not? I know it's, I've heard no headgear. How many rounds is it? How long are the rounds? Are there real judges? Is there a state commission overseeing it? I don't have all the answers. Can you imagine it being something similar to what Mike did with Roy,

where it was officially an exhibition, but there was no headgear and they did kind of sort of score it, even though it was not? Yeah, but you know what? Like, it would be really a bummer if that's what it was too, because I didn't think that was very entertaining. Did well on paper. pay-per-view. I watched it. I bought it. It was during the

pandemic. It was an event. It was cool. It was also nostalgia. I don't know. I mean, they're making... I don't know, man. I want to hear how they announce everything, right? But I still say this. Jake Paul is attempting to position himself. He's now a world-ranked fighter somehow.

And he is positioned... Is he ranked now? No. He... I think so. No, he was going to be ranked if he beat Tommy Fury. I don't think he's ranked yet. No, I think he's world-ranked cruiserweight after his last fight. Well, that would be... not cool. I mean, I guess the WBC could put him in the top 40. No, I think he's world.

No, I think he's world ranked like in top 15. Well, I don't know. We got to look next week. I don't know that, yeah. But I think he's a real right. He's calling himself a real fighter, but he's calling, he's really fighting guys with, you know, marginal real fighters and mostly MMA and influence. The guys, I would say this, but the last two guys he's beaten, that says more about

where boxing is that some of those guys can be 16 and 2 and 9-0. Mike Tyson ain't Mike Tyson when he was 28. Right. And he's really not Mike Tyson when he was 21. He's not that guy. And you saw that. I mean, look at some of the people who lost too late in his career. Danny Williams.

He lost the people you would never expect it to lose. I went back and watched the McBride fight. That was a tough watch. I mean, you know, it would be so detrimental to boxing if somehow he gets caught or loses to Jake Paul and the viewing audience viewed it as a real fight. Do you think Jake's smarter than that, though? Like, Jake's not Vitor Belfort.

It also worries me because people are looking at it as a real fight. Is this going to be an orchestrated dance where they're already planning a rematch? I mean, who the fuck knows? I mean, do you think it's going to be a real fight? I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so either. I think they'll...

But if I'm Mike Tyson, I want to knock fucking Jake's head off, man. I don't know if you can. I'm not sure you can either. Maybe in the first round. But yeah, they were talking about this seriously. I know. They were sitting here. But the point, here's where I would ask you about, is it a good thing?

unquestionably there's going to be a lot of real fighters on that undercard. Doesn't matter. That should, you know what? But I ask you this because it worked for Amanda Serrano in building her profile. Yeah, it'll build pro. It has to be regular. Like, in other words, how many times is Tyson going to fight? How many undercards are someone going to be on?

Well, you're right. But who is it? Montana Love had a big break on Jake's undercard where he knocked out, was a branchic, and he got himself a big deal out of it. Good things happen on these high-profile goofy cards. It might be good for one or two guys, not good. for the whole sport. Doesn't make a fucking difference. It's not bad. I answered

the question consistently with my first sentence, right? It's not, no, it's I don't think it's bad for the sport. I don't think it's good for the sport either. You mentioned that we're two weeks away from Amazon's first pay-per-view, headline by Keith Thurman, Tim Zoo. I'm with you. It's not going to do well,

mostly because Thurman Zoo is not a headlining event. But Amazon with its reach. Okay, but here's the problem. I watch a lot of Amazon. I do enjoy how you never let me get the question actually out before you answer. I can anticipate the question. I'm a smart guy. I watch a lot of stuff. I watch some

series on Amazon a lot. Yeah. There's not an awful lot of cross-promotion or shit popping up on your screen. You search Thurman Zoo on Amazon right now. You don't find it. I haven't seen. I think I found an energy drink. And I've looked because dude, do you don't understand something. I'm not rooting against this shit. I'm not rooting against

Al or PBC. I'm not rooting against Netflix entrance. Netflix, you know, I'm not rooting against it at all. but or Netflix entrance or I'm not rooting against Amazon Amazon's having great success in Japan with Annoye. Right? Yep. Which is where success can be found, right? Amazon is in the in-of-way business over in Japan.

They're not in the boxing business. They're in-a-bus. They're in the in-a-way business, which makes them a lot of money because he drives a lot of revenue. For streaming services, it makes more sense to be in the specific fighter business like Amazon or Netflix than being in the boxing business, the license, fee business. Correct. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. I haven't seen enough cross-promotion or umph to think that this Amazon deal as, look, are there going to be free shows? I don't know the answer to that. Nobody knows. That would have been announced, right? If there aren't. We're too weak, maybe people listen to this early in the week.

If it's simply a pay-per-view distribution deal, nothing wrong with it, but it's not earth-chat changing. And if it's only a pay-per-view distribution deal, then you have, Amazon has to adjust. into heavily promoting the fight events because that's the only way that they're going to bring the value that more people interact with Amazon

than any company on fucking Earth. It's true. I ordered toilet paper from there. Right. Everybody, everybody interacts with Amazon more than any company on Earth. If Amazon came to you or if Netflix came to you

and they said, we want to get into boxing, we want to be a boxing content provider, what would you tell them? No exclusivity. hire one or two people if you really mean it and it created a little department and do business with everybody and open up the signal heavily treat it like a series and see how you can make it resonate see if you could build a brand not the other way around not starting with the end game which is pay-per-view and going back you know in my mind that's sort of asked backwards right

So I think they could differentiate it simply by having an ombudsman, as you would say. Well, Netflix has an advantage there because Netflix is not putting this Jake Paul, Mike Tyson, on pay-per-view. It doesn't need to put it on pay-per-view because its revenues are ridiculous. No, but the question I have is, is that a license fee from Netflix simply? I don't know. No one's really defined what that deal is. I don't know.

Is there going to be sponsors that are going to be backing it heavily? I mean, I would imagine the sponsors that are typically around Jake will be backing it pretty heavily because it will do an audience in excess of 30 million, I'm going to say. It's still going to do insane money because it's going to do a gigantic gate. Gigantic gate. Now, is Netflix going to distribute it all over the world, or are they going to take out territories? Again, not an answer. I would assume worldwide, but that's just an assumption on my part.

I mean, I think that's – I've had conversation with the Netflix guys who have tamped down some of the expectations that I've put out there. I've said, wow, this could be 90 million. 100 million people there have said Not so much But 40 million 50 million Those are That's a whopper of a number

Insane That's a whopper of a number And if they do you think they can put that many people Buts and seats in AT&T stadium Yeah You do? Yeah You think they can do like a 70, 80,000

50 plus yeah It's pretty fucking impressive Lou Yeah 50 plus It's pretty impressive You know man Look I know Mike since he's a teenager Bro his name is iconic

his name is iconic and here's a thing they're tapping into Mike is a symbol of the pit bull fearful make you fearful make you shake in your boots

motherfucker you know everybody's feeling good till I get punched in the face you know Mike's you know Mike's an icon and Jake Paul has created this whole fucking thing

man and and and then the idea look it's sort of brilliant right it's sort of brilliant and by the way is it outrageous to think Mike Tyson even at 15

years old could throw an uppercut and knock Jake the fuck out? No. No. And unfortunately, because Mike's 58 years old and he smokes more weed than Arab and myself. And by the way, Mike's, man, Mike moves slow right now too. He's an older athlete, man. Those clips we see are all you're seeing it. Mike's not turning the camera off and doing that again over and over in the gym where he's

wow. Yeah, but look, he's still, I believe he's working his ass off. Oh, I believe it, but you're 57. Mike's got too much pride to not handle this like a professional. I agree, but you're 57. Dude, I'm not that much older than Mike, bro. We're like five years apart. He's the former heavyweight champion of the world.

Okay. At 57, at one point in the recent week. He's also, his body's taking more than I have. All I know is, he's had a cane at one point. At early 60s, I feel like shit. Mike Tyson ain't feeling like a 28-year-old guy. I was feeling good all the time is what Mike Tyson's doing. Well, yeah, but you know what, too?

As I've often said, marijuana is not a performance-enhancing drug. I can tell you that from experience. It makes you feel pretty good, though. Okay, but it also doesn't exactly make you the most motivated. Last thing I want to ask you, as we tape this, the Ryan Garcia-Devin-Haney fight is still on, April 20th in New York. You've seen Ryan's social media behavior over the last couple of weeks. In your opinion, should this fight still happen? Is this a fight that should go on?

Ryan and I haven't communicated between each other in about a year. But my brother was a suicide. My brother had mental health issues. I consider myself a mental health advocate. it's part of what I've done in terms of philanthropy. And Ryan's story resonated with me. And the kid has face demons in his life. He's had mental health issues.

He has been very unabashed about discussing them. And because of that, he and I developed a rapport. Right? What I'm about to say comes from a place of completely from a place of love. Completely. I don't think he's well right now. And by the way, I'm not going to say everything's insane. He's saying everything.

I'm not going to say nothing is grounded. I'm not going to, I don't want to go there. But he seems to be embracing every conspiracy theory on earth. He's sending out like hashtags of stuff that's slightly unhinged. He looks like he is not sleeping. He appears not to be totally focused. He doesn't physically look good to me. And because I like him, I follow him on all social media.

I know when he looks good and when he doesn't. As someone that cares about him, and I think I'm not in a small minority. You know, a lot of people out there saying, why aren't these people fixing him? tell you this from personal experience and anyone that has anyone with mental health problems in their close proximity, whether it's a significant other or a family member or a child or whatever, you can't fix another human being. You can make help available. You can be there for them. You can give them the right advice, but you can't fix another person. If you don't think that Ryan's mom or Ryan's ex-girlfriend, his baby's mom or whoever, don't want to see him fixed,

you're wrong. And if anyone, I mean, there are a lot of people that would join an intervention for Ryan. But if Ryan doesn't want an intervention, if Ryan believes he's well, no matter how sick he may be, it ain't going to matter. Do I think the fight should happen? As someone that cares about Ryan Garcia that thinks he a little bit, a little bit, I'm always saying a little bit,

no, I hope it doesn't happen. But it's the responsibility of the New York State Athletic Commission because it is a regulated event. And by the way, you're going to be concerned about eye tests and this test and that test or whatever. If someone is walking into a fight

and really messed up mental health, their life is at risk. This is a deadly sport. You have a meltdown in a ring and you let someone hit you flush, you can die. Well, you experienced this at HBO too. Were you there when Oliver McCall had his?

But I'll remind you. People remember this, by the way. Seth Abraham remembers this. Don King probably remembers it. I called on the dais, the week of the fight at the press conference, based upon the weird behavior of McCall. I questioned at the press conference

whether everyone should allow it to happen. Right? It did. It happened anyway. Right? Here's another problem. I give Oscar Delhoeing and Golden Boy complete pass on anything they say on this situation. Because legally, in terms of not opening themselves up to incredible liability, this is a medical issue. If the commission and the people licensing this ward are going to say he's healthy, Golden Boy can't take a position adverse to the person under contract to them.

Right? They have to play this a source. certain way, right? And if everyone's going to believe that Ryan's just trolling and he's trying to build this fight bigger and the people that are responsible for regulating the sport legally allow him to fight, there's very little anybody else can do. To play devil's advocate on the fight should go forward, couldn't you say that like Ryan is, if the fight gets called off, he's being punished because of the generation he's living in, because he's in the social media generation because if you can't have it both ways well hold on let me finish in the 1990s whether it's oliver mccall mike tyson who we just talked about many others who were probably in really

bad places what condition was arturo goddian when he fought floyd may with at that time during the promotion for that time yeah but it didn't matter that fight never should happen anyway and the result was always going to be the same thing i mean i'll be honest okay but arthur was a mess yeah but arthur was a mess yeah but he had no business being he was a mess and by the way i can point to you six of the greatest fights of his career where he was a fucking mess. No, I'm dead seriously. Well, then maybe that's the argument the fight should be. I happen to love greatly and their careers were marked by their incredible success despite

being a mess. Arturo's one of them. Is that an argument that messes should be allowed to fight in a way? No, it's not, though, because I think when you have a fighter that has been bold enough to be able to say to you, I have battle demons mentally that I am, I am victim to, I have battles I have to fight in my own head. And they've been very outward about saying people need to get help. And they appear to be devolving

in live action on social media. Then there's a responsibility to protect people from themselves. Right? In a deadly sport, in a combat sport. So I would give no response. I would put no negative if this fight takes place, the last person to cast dispersion on would be Haney or his team.

And then after that, There's nobody I would blame, even including Ryan. Because if Ryan is sick or not, or I don't even say sick, but not himself right now or unwell, okay? If he is, he's not in a position to make a rational decision. All the dummies, the sub-fucking humans, the lack of intelligence of such a core of not only our boxing fans, unfortunately, but our boxing pundits and the guys that hold mics and call himself pot.

podcasters or whatever. Some of the shit you're reading about Ryan, people are fucking morons. Dude, if he could get his head together, it'd be together, motherfucker. It'd be together. His head's not together because he can't control it.

And anyone who's ever been in a place in their life at any moment in time where their head wasn't together, and I will tell you with some of the traumas I experienced as a young guy, I have been there, right? You're not in a position sometimes to help yourself alone. not a position to help yourself alone. And it appears to me right now, I'm seeing Orion that seems to be surrounding himself with enablers

and not probably listening to the people that are giving him the right advice. Because I believe if you think that he's not getting the right advice anywhere, I think you're wrong. I think you're wrong. I think any argument to not have the fight, in part comes down to you can't beat Devin Haney unless you're 100% no matter what. Like I think that's part of it. I was in Devin's gym just yesterday. he's already sharp, man. And if you're not sharp...

People are just going to start seeing in the next couple of years really how good Devin fucking is. Devin Haney is really fucking good. And he has a fighter's mentality. He has a real fight. And he cares about money, but he cares about legacy. He cares about both, yes. He cares about both.

He's not a... There's nobody... Which he's proven, and you have first-hand experience of that, making the deal with Cambosis and fighting Lomachenko in his first defense. The reason that I... The reason that I... I have a very good relationship now with Haney and the father. I didn't anticipate with no platform that I was going to do with.

Devin was going to be my fighter forever. I delivered Devin a great opportunity. And I said, okay, well, you've got to deliver some back. We've got to work together for basically a year. We've got to do a couple of fights together. And there were three fights that were done with between My Sphere and Arams and Devin. And then Devin was able to go where the best situation was in his view. So far, no one he's worked with.

from any hurt to myself to Aram to anybody else's can say he hasn't lived up to his end of the bargain in every deal he's made. So I got no hate for them at all. And I actually, look, this is a brilliant deal for them to have made. Unfortunately, I just am really worried about the headspace that Ryan Garcia is occupying right now. Let me ask you one last thing. You touched briefly on Saudi Arabia's influence in boxing. There's no question it's had a positive impact, especially on the heavyweight division. vision, right? Because we were going to get AJ against Wilder. If Wilder took care of business,

for years, we haven't been able to see that happen stateside. Even Fury against AJ, who knows if it would have happened. Go down to light heavyweight. We probably would never have seen Dimitri Bevel against Archer. Better Beavit sounds like that's going to happen in June. So there's no question there's a positive effect there. Look, you can't say it's a negative. Look, here's the bottom line. If they weren't doing these fights, they would not be happening. So I guess the question is more like, what is an ideal involvement? What is an ideal to continue to grow the sport globally? What is idea level of involvement. It would be that they become involved in actually taking interest in some of the fighters

and they are promoting them around the world not only in, not any in Saudi. I mean, I love the idea that any... I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that migration of a sport to the Middle East is making the sport bigger. I don't buy that. No, but I love the idea. Now, by the way, I'll say this, though. The time zone meshes with the UK...

The UK audience. It works. So, and for Saudi Arabia, that provides... and the Arab world that's seeing a lot of its tourism and a lot of its closest relationships. They're not lying in the United States right now at all. They're in Europe. And so for Turkey Al-Asheek,

marketing, he's getting real banged for the buck in Great Britain, particularly, the whole UK in Europe. The events are seen in prime time in those areas. People see people going to Saudi Arabia and having a big event atmosphere. You know, Mr. Alashik's obviously showed the sport respect. He's brought some of the biggest names in the history of the sport,

paid them money to be there, paid the money no other promoter could ever afford to pay, and made the event into a black tie event where boxing hasn't had that black tie on it since HBO. HBO, we used to one of the things we really believe, like, first of all, You were, you know, where did you start in boxing? My first fight was Delahoya Mayweather, 07. Right. So you still saw some of the, you didn't really see the glory, glory years, but you saw where there was still the big HBO party.

Oh, yeah. The plane coming in from L.A. full of time, you know, executives. You just get invited to that Game of Thrones party because of HBO. Right. And you would see, you know, when you go back to the 90s, the parties would have around the big HBO fights, there would be like multiple private jets coming in from L.A. with the biggest stars in the business

and people talking boxing, getting drunk for three hours before the fights, and then a subsequent party after the fights with all the promoters, the fighters. It just was a whole different vibe. When people go to Saudi Arabia to this event, particularly people that involved an event, there is a black tie on the event.

It is a big event. The problem is, in terms of the viewer, the potential audience, the American fight fan, the Canadian fight fan, the North American fight fan, it's the middle of the afternoon, it's a million miles away,

they're not getting on a plane and going to Saudi Arabia where they can't go and get hammered, and it's not making the sport bigger. It's not. I did love something Eddie Hearn said recently where he suggested that Turk Yelishik will do,

wants to do a Fury AJ fight in Saudi Arabia and a second fight in the UK, which I think is great. I think if you can have one of those fights over there, If there's going to be a rematch clause, that's the way it should work. Right? Yeah. That's the way it should work.

I would applaud that. Yeah. I do think that the man has made a positive contribution to advancing the heavyweight division when other people weren't doing it. And I think overall, because some of these matchups are happening, it's certainly, you know, you have that, that's why you have the core of the pundits, and I don't agree with them, who are shouting that this is somehow a glory time. No, it's sort of a shitty time, but some big fights are happening.

and a lot of the ones that are happening are happening because of the actions and the investment of the Saudis. And that's not a bad thing for boxing. Well, Lou, always appreciate the what is it, ummbudsmanship, is that a word? I guess maybe.

Ambudsmaning? Candor probably works. Cander. Cander probably works, though. Always a pleasure, bro. And when we come back, my conversation with Devin Haney. All right, so I know many of you out there

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Download Game Time today. Last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations

with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clivert Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode, with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Devin, I have been part of some wild fucking promotions over the years. I have never quite seen one that has begun like this where one of the fighters seems to, at least publicly, be having a breakdown in real time. You have been about your business in the gym. We're recording this in your gym right now.

sparring, everything normal. What have you been thinking as you've watched this unfold so publicly? Every time you open up social media, there's something new coming from Ryan Garcia. What have you been thinking? Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, this is a surprise for me, but it's not. It seems like every time I find somebody, they come with some, some, just out of the ordinary. We've seen it with George Camposos the first time, you know, Regis and his guy came with something out of the ordinary. and now Ryan.

So I'm kind of mentally already prepared for these type of things. And I just block it out and stick to my business, train, you know, as hard as possible as always. And, you know, get ready for April 20th. Those issues with Regis and with George felt a little bit for more traditional debates, you know, the big dummy when Regis is going. You know, George doing his thing. Does this feel different though? Like, I mean, there's some very deeply. personal stuff kind of getting tossed out there.

Yeah, I mean, with George, you know, we seen that it was, you know, kind of, we, we, we seen through it a little bit. We seen that it was, you know, just promoting the fight. We seen him with the big dummy and Regis, it was still, you know, promoting a fight. I also don't even know his name anymore. The Regis guy. No, honestly, honestly, his name is like Evis or something. Strength coach and Big Dummy was all I remember for that promotion.

And honestly, honestly, that's my, our team still causing that to this day. So, this time around, we don't. don't really know if he's trolling, if it's trying to sell the fight, or if something's actually really wrong with it. What do you think? I don't know. It's not really for me to dig too deep into. It's for me to just prepare and focus because, you know, it's clearly a roller coaster that he's on, rather he's trolling or he's not. And it's a rollercoaster I don't want to get on. So I'm not, you know, too focused on what he's doing and what, and at this point, I'm done or even responding to him. You know, he said some stuff the other day that was just like,

Are you worried, we're five weeks out, are you worried about this fight happening? In the beginning, yeah, I was worried, to be honest. You know, I called Oscar, I was asking Oscar, hey, what's up, man? Is this fight going to go through? What's going on? Is he going to pull out? Is he having mental health issues, whatever, whatever? Oscar said, no, the fight's going to happen.

This guy says he's trolling. He knows what he's doing. So it is what it is. You know, now the fight is on. He's still saying that he's training. He's still doing whatever. he's doing. The fight is still on. The contract is signed. The date is set. And what more can I do, but focus and train. Is he, I mean, you guys have messaged each other in the past. Does he message

you now? No, no, no. No, he doesn't message me, but he says stuff to me on Twitter, obviously, the world has seen it. But he doesn't message me anymore. And like I said, I'm done responding to him. My only focus is to focus on the fight, remain focused. And yeah. Did you see, I mean, you were part of the press conferences. And then the last one felt a little more emotionally charged than the first one in New York, the one in L.A. Did you see this escalating to where it's gotten right now? Could you see this kind of behavior coming?

No, I mean, who could have seen this? That's a good point, yeah. Who could have seen? This is something that we've never seen before. I mean, in boxing, we never seen it before. But like I said, it's not, you know, for me to get too emotionally touched to it. My main focus is being the best Devon Haney. and rather it's Ryan, excuse me,

rather it's Ryan Garcia or is anybody else. I'm preparing for whatever. Do you try to put out any feelers for people that might be down there, you know, part of either Derek James' camp, people you might know in Texas, try to see what exactly is going on? Do you try to do your own investigation beyond just calling Oscar to touch? No, I mean, like I said, the only person that I call is Oscar,

I don't know anybody on his team. And, you know, what are they going to say? They say that he's fucking crazy. and that he's, that he's, you know, he's not crazy. He's not mentally there. Then what am I going to do? I mean, the fight is still on. And it is what it is.

When you see his brother come out and say, I'm really worried about him, and his ex-wife come out. We don't know. We don't know how much of this is real and how much of it is fake. If this is fake, it's one of the great fakes of, one of the weirdest fakes, I should say, of all time. According to him, it's fake. I mean, it's trolling.

So, I don't know. I can't focus on his team and what they're doing. It might just be all the plan, like he said, to sell the fight. But if it is, it's a very odd way to do it. I can't say, I don't know until Friday Night to see if it actually is working as in selling the fight or if it's getting people drawn away from the fight. I don't know. Well, that's an interesting thing to bring.

What do you think? I look, I think initially it could sell the fight, but it's hard to sell tick. to people that aren't sure a fight's going to happen, right? Yeah, I mean, we sold 10,000 tickets right after the second press conference. Great. I think it holds only like 19,000. Yeah. So we were halfway there and then everything slowed down.

Because why would people, if you're coming from out of town, why would you buy a ticket for something like, well, a lot of people are saying it's not going to happen? Yeah, I mean, what can we do? My only focus is to remain focused and focus on the fight. Do my job as a true professional that I am. This is what I love to do. This is what I do. And, you know, I thank I a lot for this, you know, this everything, the opportunity, the platform. And rather, you know, he's in the ring or not.

You know, this whole situation has made Devin Haney even bigger and my brand even bigger. So it is what it is. You mentioned trolling. And one of the things he did was go after Prime Energy Drink. And then a day later, we see you and the Prime guys posting that you are now a official sponsor of Prime Energy. Tell me about that. Yeah, I mean, I've been in talks with Prime for a while,

and, you know, I finally came into fruition. What more can I say? But, I mean, it must have been a reaction in part to... No, we've been in talks for a while now. The timing was coincidental? The day he says that cyanide is in Prime. Coincidence has happened. What can I say?

What can I say? You know, like I said, I've been in Prime. I've been in talks with Prime for a while. We were trying to do something last fight, but it was two last minute. So, what a better time. It's, what a coincidence. An amazing coincidence in terms of timing then. You're peaking, it feels like, right now, as a fighter.

I mean, coming off, I thought you were my fighter of the year in 2023. Yeah, no, thank you for that. You were right up there on everybody else's list. You want to face the very best. When this fight was made, Ryan, coming off the Duarte win, certainly looked and felt like the very best. I guess it's a weird question. Will you be disappointed if people look at him and say,

well, he's not, he's out of his mind. Like, Devin's fighting a guy that's crying. How would that bother you? I mean, I believe that I am the best. And no matter who gets in the ring on April 20th, the outcome will be the same. And, you know, Ryan can come in, however he's going to come in. It doesn't matter to me.

It really doesn't. Whatever he brings to the table, I'm going to be ready for 100% because I do feel like I'm the best fighter in the world. And what can they say? We all know the familiarity between you guys from the amateur ranks. How have you been preparing to face him? Same as always, really. You know, obviously, you know, he has flaws and he has habits and stuff like he does that every fighter has.

You know, we study him and we go in and we game playing and we try to, you know, our plan is to handicap him. we all know that he has a big left hook that's his that's his money shot but he has a respectable right hand as well um so it's for me to handicap him do you feel like that pro great fight where you did handicap regis you took away that left hand from the very beginning and won as comprehensively as you possibly can was that the very best of you on that night oh i'm only getting better and better and stronger and uh more comfortable in the ring and um you know i'm still only 25 years old i'm not i'm not you know You said I'm growing into my prime, but I'm not. I still got a long way to go.

I'm only 25. I think they say, you know, in your early 30s is when you touch your prime. So I still got a long way to go. But am I getting better and better each fight? Yes. Am I learning more in the gym? Yes. But am I going to be better than the last fight?

100%. And I can't wait to show the world. You know, this is not a unification fight, but it's a big fight for a number of different reasons. Is this even more, is this better than a unification fight for you, you know, going up against the Ryan Garcia? This is a huge event for boxing. You know, I won the belts already. You know, I did it. I became undisputed. You know, I got the belts. You know, it was enough to some people, but it wasn't enough to a lot of people, you know, some people still, you know, weren't giving

me my credit. I did that. I just became champion at 140. And, you know, after the last fight, even before the fight, I said after this, you know, I want to make the biggest fight happen for the most amount of money. And this is, you know, one of the biggest fights in boxing and, you know, it's for, you know, the, almost the biggest bag. No, yeah, the most money after the end of 140-pound division. The only other fight outside of that is me and Taint Davis. So it aligns what I've been wanting to do. What worries you the most? over these next five weeks? Like, is there anything that keeps you up at night

when you think about this fight? Nothing worries me, because, you know, I trust in our law. I give, you know, him, he has all the power. He's the ultimate planner. So it's humdrum to the life. Whatever happens with Ryan, what happens with Ryan is what is supposed to happen. I just got to stay focused, focus on me.

And like I said, whoever is going to be on the April 20th, it's going to be. If if for some reason But as it right now, it's Ryan Garcia And that's my focus If for some reason he doesn't fight What then? Then Arnold Barbosa is the next guy up

You would go into a fight against Barbosa I'm the type of guy, you know, I'll fight anybody But yeah, the next guy up for The backup opponent is Arnold Barbosa, which is crazy That we even have to have a backup opponent You know, I don't know If we ever had this happen

in boxing. We've seen it happen in UFC. I've watched a lot of UFC lately. I've seen it happen in UFC, but I don't know if we ever seen it really happen like this in boxing where we go into it with a backup opponent. COVID maybe it did, but that was about it. Yeah. So, yeah. So, um, but it is what it is. This is what we're dealing with. This is what I signed up for fighting a guy like Ryan Garcia, a guy who's, you know, mostly an influencer these days. And, you know, it doesn't really take boxing serious like, you know us boxers but um it is what it is this this this is the risk that you that you that you that you run when you find a guy like ryan you put a pretty sound beating on regis pro gray in that last fight regis didn't quit i mean and regis has a lot of pride regis is a very very tough guy um

you know your dad's talked about getting a knockout in this fight is this the kind of fight that you believe how you perform that you can make ryan garsia quit yeah um i think i can knock him out I think I can make him quit. It's set up for me to do so. I just got to go in there, execute the game plan, be me, and it could end in an early victory for me. Do you have any parting message for Ryan as we count down to five weeks until... I mean, like I said, I got nothing else to say to him.

My main focus is preparing. He says a lot about a lot of different things. Is there something he said that you're like, damn, that's even further over the top than I would have imagined. Yeah, yeah. And it was, he said something the other day that was just like, I'm done even responding to him. What did he say? I'm not even going to say because it's just like, I'll tell you off camera, but I'm not going to say it because it's just so left feel like something's wrong with you. I mean, it could be anything.

He ran down the streets of Dallas asking people if there were pedophiles the other day. And calling him bitches. There's a lot. There's a lot going on. Every day we wake up. to something new. And it feels like you must have had to have been like, you know what, I'm not going to worry. I'm guessing like for a while you were probably worried every mode every day.

And maybe now it's like you got to just kind of let it go. In the very beginning, yes, I was. I was worried. I was worried every day. But Ryan Garcia is a type of fighter where he could be trolling and he could come in and, you know, bring his A game. So I'm prepared for whatever he brings to the table. And the world will see. how great Devin Haney is.

This is a showcase fight for me. Hope to see it April 20th, Devin. It will showcase, for sure. Good to see it, man. Thank you. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Lou Debella and Devin Haney for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify,

wherever you download podcasts. And I'll see you next week. Thank you so much. I go sleep. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bobo,

to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast, Superhuman, documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within

probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I

are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun-tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.