The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Drama between Tank and Garcia

Episode Date: December 23, 2022

Chris talks with the longtime boxing reporter, Dan Rafael about the latest surrounding Tank Davis and Ryan Garcia, Tanks comments about Ryan being lazy, and what is next for Regis Prograis. Later, Jose Ramirez stops by to discuss what's next for him. #Volume #Herd See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Here's Chris Mannix. Welcome back to another boxing with Chris Manix. As always, you can listen to the show live on the AMP app. Just follow Chris Manix on AMP. And we are back. The last podcast before the Christmas holiday. Happy holidays, everybody. Some of you celebrating Hanukkah.

Some of you about to celebrate Christmas. Some of you celebrating Festivus maybe. I'm a big Festivist fan myself. Whatever it is that you're celebrating. Hope you're enjoying it. We get a lot to get to on this podcast. A lot happening now as we get closer to the end of the year and into 2020. To discuss all that,

I'm bringing my friend Dan Rayfield. long time boxing reporter, commentator, now the author of Fight Freaks Unite on Substack. You can subscribe to that page. Also follow Dan on Twitter at Dan Rayfield One. What's happening? Dan, how you doing? I'm doing very good.

I want to know, is this episode of your podcast since it's Fessis, are we going to do an airing of our grievances? I got a lot of grievances, especially with boxing. That's actually not a bad column, the airing of the grievances. I think that would piss a lot of people off, but that's not a bad idea. idea for a column maybe next year when we're worried about pissing people off. No, no, not so much, not so much. Although I, yes, I, the number of text messages I get

nowadays from pissed off people, it's a little higher than I'd like at the moment. But it's neither here nor there. Dan, before we get into the topics this week, and we're going to talk about the mess in 140-pound division. We're going to talk about a few other things, including Frank Martin, who looked great last weekend. Steve Smoker, someone you know well. I know, I know, well. He passed away this week. Longtime boxing referee, boxing Hall of Fame are inducted in 2015. I knew Steve a little bit as a referee. I got to know him a lot better in his years as a commentator, a referee analyst, rules analyst. He did it a

little bit early on with me for NBC in their fight night series. And then more significantly, I would think with DeZone when he joined up with them for a few fights over the last couple of years. tremendous guy. Like one of the best guys in all of boxing, always had a smile on his face, always wanted to hear about what was gone on your life, wanted to talk about something good that was happening in his. And from professional perspective, I was really impressed at how enthusiastic and inquisitive Steve was about broadcasting. Like he didn't go into it thinking, I'm Steve Smoger, I'm a Hall of Fame referee, I know what I'm doing. He always was asking

questions about what he should do, how he should do it. And I always admired that about someone of his stature going into that job. I also admired his bluntness. I mean, you know, whatever sport you're talking about, Steve Smoger, he was not afraid to criticize his former peers. Like if a referee was doing something wrong, Steve Smoker would point it out. If a judge, Steve Smoker was, of course, a longtime judge as well, if a judge submitted a bad scorecard, Steve Smoker wasn't going to protect him. I really liked that about him. I thought that added value to a broadcast.

So boxing lost a luminary with Steve Smoger passing away this weekend. In general, Dan, just a really good guy to be around. No doubt about it. I met Steve Smoker very early in my career. I covered a lot of fights that he was the referee. And I got to know him pretty well over the years. I didn't work with him on television the way you did. But we saw each other at fights on a regular basis.

We always spent time with each other. if we saw each other at the hotel, the casino. And, you know, it took, you know, over the years, we would email with each other about different things on a number of occasions. We had many, many conversations over the years. He was just a great guy. And, you know, when he was no longer really refereeing in later years, he was working with one of the smaller sanctioning bodies, the IBA.

And whenever they would have, he was acting as a supervisor for those events and helping them out. And he would always steadfastly email me. me what the events were because you knew I like to keep a tidy schedule and we would have our back and forth. And again, we knew, you know, I knew him for 20 years probably and always, and not just like there's, you know how this business is, Chris, you meet different people, you're friendly with them, but you're not like close to them, but whenever you see them, you're friendly. But Smoger, and I always called him Smoger, so I'm not being disrespectful. He called me Danny,

one of the very few people allowed to call me Danny in the world. We had a relationship that I think that went a little bit beyond just like seeing each other at fights because we did correspond on a regular basis and talk about a lot of things. You know, I had many conversations where I sat with him and listened to him, explain to me his philosophy about refereeing and, you know, what he thought was a good stoppage, when's a bad stoppage, why he did what he did, how he studied the fighters beforehand. If he knew he was doing one of their main events to sort of understand their tendencies, one of the great things he ever talked about was how he was the referee for one of the fights I had covered, which was when Kelly Pablick knocked

out Jermaine Taylor to become the middleweight champion. But Steve had also done the previous fight that Kelly Pablick had, which was the elimination fight against Edison Miranda. And in the Edison Miranda fight, Kelly Pablick was in all sorts of trouble at one point. And he came back. It was a great battle. And then he ended up getting the victory. And so when he was going into the due to fight with Taylor, when Jermaine Taylor knocked

Kelly Pavik down fairly hard in the second round of that fight, A lot of referees definitely would have stopped it at that moment. But because Smoger had spent time studying Pavlik, having had done his previous fight, he understood his tendencies in sort of the way that he was as a fighter and made the appropriate decision that he didn't need to call that fight at the second round when the knockdown happened. And what happens? Kelly Pavlik storms back.

He knocks out Tremant later in that fight, becomes a middleweight champion. And if he stops that fight like lots of other people did, Kelly Pavlick's life is totally different probably. He was the kind of referee that, you know, some people said he had a slow trigger to stop fights. You know, he did let guys fight. But what I liked about him is that I don't remember guys getting hurt in his fights, but he let the matches go to their natural conclusion.

He had a great instinct of when the perfect time was to stop a fight. And I just thought he was a great referee. And there's a reason, Chris, real quick, there's a reason why he was the referee for a lot of fights that were great fights because he knew when to intervene and went not to. So he did two fights of the year, Emmanuel Augustus and Mickey Ward, Jirov against James Tony. He was in some other huge events, Trinidad and Hopkins and Mosley and Forrest won and I could go on for a half an hour on the fights he did. Yeah, and I remember vividly that Taylor Pavlik fight, that was one of the

first fights I ever covered. And I was down in Atlantic City for that fight. And you mentioned the knockdown, even after the knockdown, Pavlik was in trouble there. There were times other referees would have stepped in and waved it off. Steve Smoger, to his credit, let him go. It did come with risks sometimes because sometimes you can let fights go on too long. I remember talking to Steve about, you know, the Glenn Tapia, James Kirkland fight. That was a fight that, you know, Steve, I think will always regret, like not stepping in about one punch earlier on, you know, Glenn Tapia there. It's just, you know, it's, you want to give fighters every chance they can, they have to fight their way back into a fight. But the

that comes with it. It's just so dangerous that one punch could change a fight. But Steve Spulger was right far more often than he was wrong, just an unbelievably skilled referee. He probably would want that one back. And I'm not going to make excuses for it. But when you do like literally probably like a thousand fights, you know, 200 or so world title fights, you're not going to be perfect every single time the same way, you know, we're not a perfect story we write or everything. We broadcast. But, you know, that's like basically. one fight you could pick out of a ton of them. And he probably would want that one back.

But overall, just a brilliant referee. And by the way, the reason he's in the Hall of Fame, and it's been a tough month for referees with Steve passing. And, of course, a couple weeks ago, the passing of the Great Mills Lane, also another Hall of Fame referee. So that's a rough one. I don't know what you're talking about, though, Dan.

My scorecards are always perfect, and everybody always agrees with me. So I would know the feeling. I wouldn't know the feeling on that. I never hear from DeZone watchers about my scorecards. All right, I want to jump into what's become a messy situation with the 140-pound title, at least the WBC's version of it. Just a couple of months ago, really one month ago now,

we had Regis Progray win the WBC's version of the title becoming a two-time 140-pound champion. Terrific performance in that fight against Jose Petraza, excellent performance. and Jose Zepeda. So, Jose Zapeda, sorry, I just saw Padraza. So looking at his future now, he was hoping to get a fight, his next fight against Jose Ramirez. The WBC rules that the purse split is going to be 60, or 70, 30, originally in favor of Regis Progre.

That was altered to be 6535. Ramirez not happy with that, has withdrawn from negotiations for that fight. The WBC has ruled that ProGre can take a voluntary defense, though I don't know who ProGray would fight at this point, nor do I think he wants a voluntary defense at this point. What do you make of Ramirez's decision to back out of this fight? It's disappointing. It's almost like they went into this conversation thinking, 6535, huh? Like, they had no idea what was going on, which is just not true,

because the general consensus in the WBC mandatory fights is a 60, as a, it is typically a 70-30 split. There are many occasions where they will amend the purse split and make it 65-35. Occasionally they might boost it to 60-40 depending, but that's not the most common thing. And so people should remember, first of all, a couple things about that, Chris. Number one, the purse split is just in the event that it goes to a purse split. There's nothing that says it has to be a certain percentage if the two sides during the course of their allowable time frame to do a private negotiation come up with whatever formula they come up with.

So that was only in the event if the teams couldn't make the deal. So they had every opportunity to make a deal. As you mentioned, Progrey, I'm sure, would be have been happy to negotiate with them. And I feel like top rank, which is the promoter for Jose Ramirez, would have been willing to negotiate a deal as well. So I kind of find that to be a cop out. They didn't go to a perspective. It doesn't feel like there was ever a true negotiation, number one. Number two, back before Regis Progray got the opportunity to fight Zapata for the vacant title,

the fight that had been ordered when Josh Taylor vacated was to fill that vacancy between Jose Ramirez and Jose Zapata, which would have been a rematch of an extremely difficult fight that Jose Ramirez had when he was the WBC champion. A Fala people felt like Zapata was the winner of that fight. nonetheless, Jose Ramirez got the victory. So under that scenario, it would have been, again, if it had gone to a purse, but it would have been a 50-50 split. Now, so Jose Ramirez said, forget about it. I'm not fighting.

I'm taking the rest of the year off. I'm getting married. The WBC has said, fine, you can have the next shot when you come back, you know, happy nuptials. And therefore, Regis got the opportunity to fight dissipated for the vacant title. He won the fight, fair and square by knockout, terrific performance. And now he's the WBC champion. And by the way, when you're the champion, champions have privileges. And that is generally getting the larger share of a purse when it goes to a purse bid.

So for the team on Ramirez's side to act like this was a shock is just ridiculous. I mean, just say you don't want to do the fight. They didn't want to do the fight five years ago or so when he ended up, they maneuver to get him ahead of Regis. So he could fight the Amir Imam for the vacant title. Regis took a fight with top rank and got paid well and then went into the tournament. But that fight should have happened a while ago. There's no reason it shouldn't have happened now. Again, I want to make sure that people understand that the purse split was only if it went to a bit, not a private negotiation between the sides.

There was good money in that fight for everybody. I feel like that Ramirez's team, not saying that the athlete was ducking or anything, but the management, maybe the promoter, I can't say for sure. They just weren't all that interested. So now instead of making whatever the percentage was on a purse split or a private negotiator, against Progray, Chris, he's going to headline an ESPN show in late March, probably against Richard Comey, in a fight that's meaningless that I think stinks, that isn't going to be for a title, and he won't probably make as much money as he would have made if he was fighting Ridge's program.

You can't have it both ways. He gave up the opportunity to wait one rotation, comes back. He's obviously going to get a smaller split as the non-champion in the fight. So it's very disappointing because now he's got a weak fight in March and Regis is sitting there looking for an opponent to fight and who the heck knows who it's going to be. It's very disappointing. The whole thing is a mess. You made this point. I agree with it.

I don't believe that management promoters, whoever is around Jose Ramirez, wants this pro gray fight. I don't think they ever did. I don't think they want it now. Like there's no reason for top rank not to go out sign, you know, Regis Progray. like he is aligned with Probellum right now, but like that's sort of like a weird arrangement. I think that Progrey is available to be signed to like a co-promotional type deal to work with that. Like he, they could pick him up and do multiple fights with Regis Prograbber. They don't want to do it.

And because they don't want to do it, I think they want to keep these 140 pounders within their universe. That means Teofima Lopez against the winner of Taylor Caterall, assuming Taylor wins. And then maybe Regis Progray fights the winner of that down the line. I just, I don't see any scenario. where we get Ramirez against Progray. One thing I would say if you're Progray, like call the bluff of Team Ramirez here. Like, if you're Regis Progray,

how much does it really hurt you going up to 40% and say, like, you said you do the fight at 40%, how much will you actually do it? Because if you're Regis Progray, again, I don't know who he's going to fight. Like, he's not going to get anybody on the top ranked side of the ledger. there's nothing really for him in that matchroom golden boy universe right now you go overseas and

maybe take a fight no i got an idea because i was i was looking down the box wreck rankings trying to make heads or tails of who's available and who's doable and there's two guys three guys actually that stood out to me as conceivable i'm not saying they're going to happen one was sergey libynettes who's coming back down to 140 who's a fourth champion uh he has a victory uh over omar figaroa since the loss at Welterweight. That's one name again. I'm not saying these are happening. But these are the guys that stood out like that.

But yeah. Again, he's going to have to fight somebody. And then there's two guys, two other guys. Steve Spark coming off a nice win over Montana Love. If he doesn't do a rematch with Love, that might be a fight that Eddie Hearn might be interested to do. And the other one was another guy that Eddie Hearn signed. Could do maybe Richardson Hitchens, you know, at some point.

Those are, those are three names. If you look at the top, you know, 20 fighters, listed on Box Rec in the 140-pound weight class that seem conceivable, not completely ridiculous, and guys who are not otherwise occupied or in business scenarios where it doesn't make any sense. But I agree with you about one thing that, and I don't think it was top rank. I think, honestly, it's the management, and maybe it's Ramirez himself. They just didn't want to fight Regis Pro Gray unless they could get every single thing their

way, because let's just be honest. And I have nothing against Ramirez or his team. I know them a long time. I like them, but everybody who follows boxing knows at this moment in time, where he just pro-gray probably wipes Jose Ramirez out. Yeah, I don't know about that. I don't, I think he'd go in as the favorite. I'd have to think more about, you know, where Ramirez is.

I mean, Ramirez, every time you kind of count Ramirez out, he does something pretty good. Like, I thought he'd lose to hooker, frankly, you know, a couple of years ago. He wound up knocking him out, and he took Josh Taylor, you know, to the bitter end. I mean, that was a good fight. I don't like, the greater point. in all this is this is a fight. No, your splits ahead of time. Yeah, no, your splits ahead of time,

but this is a fight that could still theoretically be cobbled together. It could be put together. Like, I think that Top Rank would love it if Matchroom got in the Regis Prograde business and bid for this fight and say, well, just like with Hooker and Ramirez, Matchroom comes in and says, we'll pay you X million dollars to bring Ramirez over.

I think Matt Top Rank would do it there. I just don't think Top Rank is looking to invest, what, five, six million dollars in a fight like this? I just don't think they're willing to do it at this point. The other part of this, Dan, you and I both know Rick Marigian, the manager of Jose Ramirez as well. I like him, done an excellent job with Jose building him up in that Fresno area. If you're Rick, you can't complain about the preposterousness of this purse split for Jose Ramirez and how we should never do it. a week after you took 25% for Virgil Ortiz to fight Stanionis. Like you can't do it.

Now, the reason he wasn't coveching about Virgil Ortiz and Stanionis is that he knows that Golden Boy, if they hustle and do the fight in Texas, can probably squeeze another half a million dollars out of a gate and give that to Virgil Ortiz. As big a draw as Ramirez is in Fresno, there's zero dollars there. There's no money. That LiveGate is not significant. Certainly not significant as Texas or Los Angeles or Vegas. It's great on TV.

Save Martyrina. Great fun, but you're not doing a big enough number to make up the difference for Jose Ramirez. Damn, I just thought, I'm just sitting there. I'm like reading some of Rick's comments. And he and our pal Sam Kakoff's got to get off Twitter. Like stop just talking about, just stop. Twitter's not the place to legislate all this or adjudicate all this. I just find it hilarious that Rick's out there saying 35% is too low, but you just took 25.

Like, what are we doing here? What are we talking about right now? Well, you're absolutely right. They do big numbers in terms of the butts and seats, but those butts and seats don't translate to the dollars. So I always like to use the example when people talk about the gate slash the number of people. Would you rather be, you know, Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacow fighting at the end. MGM Grand Garden Arena in front of 16,500 or so and the gates 75 million, or would you rather be Anthony, Joshua, and Vladimir Klitschko fighting in front of 90,000 at Wembley Stadium in the gates around

$10,12 million? You know what I mean? You'd rather have 16,000 to make $75 million or $90,000 and get $10,12 million. So that's exactly what happens. The numbers of people that turn out for Jose is a lot. And, you know, more power to him. He's got a great fan base. It's a very blue collar area, and they don't have high ticket prices, which is good for the folks that are there that want to go support them, but it doesn't bring in the money. And you're absolutely right about the situation

with Virgil Ortiz. And I must also say, going back a couple of minutes, an outstanding usage of the work vetching. I mean, it's just hilarious. I can't, I can't wrap my head around this. Like, it's like you're expecting us not to have two separate trains of thoughts.

Like 35% too low, 25%, we're good. We're in. I don't quite understand that. I would say this, what a thing, Dan, what a thing? Like, I would actually think it's a good idea for Eddie Hearn to get the pro-grade business because Eddie's going to get Devin Haney back at some point. I don't know when it's going to happen, but Devin Haney's going to go back to Matron.

Those two, there's like a bromance with those two that Eddie will make it worth his while. He's got all this money in Abu Dhabi in 2023. He can give some of it to Devin Haney to fight over there. He's going to get Devin Haney back at some point. Ryan Garcia is going to remain in the Golden Boy universe for at least the next couple of years. He'll be at 140. Like, you can do something with Regis Prograde. at 140 if you're Eddie Hearn. I think it makes business sense for Eddie Hearn to get in the

pro-grade business. Yeah, I mean, that's not out of the realm of possibility. And, you know, when anytime you have one of the best fighters in the weight class and you have a world title associated with that fighter, if you're a promoter, you should want to be in that business. You know, the problem with Probelem at the moment is that they just don't have the outlet for broadcast, which makes it very difficult to pay your fighters top dollar or to put on these big because Progray is now at a level in terms of his pay where they can't just go do a small show in the UK, for example. That's when the fight that he did with Zapata was surprisingly won by Marv Nation, backed by Legends Entertainment to do the pay-per-view.

They were able to just put it on a pay-per-view platform. But obviously, that would have been a fight much better served in front of a larger audience, either on Showtime or on ESPN or on the zone or something where the normal subscriber could just watch that fight. because don't get me wrong, it's a really good fight. But I think most, here's what the general comment to me was when that fight was made on my various social media platforms, which was, what was the Peta versus Program? That's a hell of a fight. I can't wait to see that.

$60 bucks on pay-per-view? No thanks. So they liked the fight, but the fact that was on pay-per-view and at a fight cost that was that most people felt was too high was a dooming element of that fight, is why the pay-per-view, you know, ultimately did very, very poorly, despite the fact that they did a good job with the undercard and a good job with the production and, you know, they did a first-class promotion, but it was too much, too expensive. It was not on the greatest date, a pay-per-view on the Saturday of Thanksgiving weekends,

not necessarily the ideal time to, you know, get people to bony up for a pay-per-view. But, yeah, Regis Progrey is, and it's not a knock on Probellum, but he needs to be with a promoter that has a broadcast outlet. because Regis is an excellent fighter who should be in the main event on big shows, and maybe he can work himself up to being a legitimate pay-per-view guy, but he's not that guy yet. And just so we're clear, Ramirez Comey is a bad fight. It is a bad, bad, bad, bad fight. It is not a fight worthy of headlining a main event on a significant card.

Richard Comey is one, two, and one in his last four fights. He was blasted out by Teufima Lopez. as he was beaten pillar to post by Vasily Lomachenko, and I'm sorry, I'm not going to get excited about the fact that he had a draw against Jose Padraza. That doesn't tell me that he still has something left. This is a bad fight. I don't know how much clearer we need to be.

It should not be a ESPN televised main event. I mean, if you want to make the fight, fine. But again, I don't think it as, I don't think of it as a main event, particularly when it's taking the place of the potential of the pro gray fight. So like you, like you said, I'm just, uh, not Richard Comey's. a good dude and he's had a good career and and all that but i mean but he's got to do dan he's got he's got to do he's got to do what he did after those back-to-back losses to robert easter and to shaffaacov he went out he won what four five fights in a row before the lopez fight he won a belt

like he rebuilt himself and made himself viable for that teafima lopez fight right now he's not viable he's not he looks like and he's fighting at a weight class above what he was at his best at so I don't, I can't go into that fight think it's going to be remotely competitive. That's my biggest problem with it. I don't think Comey would be competitive against Ramirez. There's just no real reason to do the fight. I mean, I cannot get excited about that one at all. And it's, you know, like I like each fighter.

I like Ramirez. I like Comey, but the match just feels like we already know the result. I mean, unless he lands the Hail Mary punch on Ramirez, who's always showing himself to have a good chin anyway, you already know what's going to happen. can tell you right now, that fight's like, you know, eight rounds to two, you know, go into the scorecards. You know, write it down. Yeah, I'm with you on that one.

All right, let's move on to some of the chatter going on between Ryan Garcia and Tank Davis. Tank Davis had a media workout in Miami this week. Of course, the subject of Ryan Garcia comes up. Ryan, of course, has elected not to go ahead with a stay busy fight against Mercito Gesta instead to just keep training to go on to the fight against Tank. presumably for mid-April, though we'll see what happens with Tank over these next couple of months. Let's start with Ryan's decision not to take the stay-busy fight. We've heard some criticisms from people like Golden Boy, from Oscar Delahoya himself. What did you make of Ryan deciding not to fight Guesta?

I thought it was a very mature decision and the right decision. I told Ryan that myself, you know, Ryan and I occasionally will text with one another. I told them that I thought it was a good decision and that it was a mature decision. in my mind, when you do tune up fights, bad things happen. And we have a hard enough time in this sport making them big mega fight. Ryan Garcia fought two times in 2022. He's not going to be coming off some wacky layoff. You know, if he's in the gym training with his trainer, Joe Gousson,

there's absolutely no reason why he has to have a fight that does nothing for him other than get him some money, I guess. And let's just be frank about this reason, that Golden Boy is upset that there's no fight. Oscar de Aloha has made remarks about it. Eric Gomez, the president of Golden Boy, made comments to me that I used in the story that I wrote about that. Now, maybe from the competitive point of view, Oscar as a former world champion boxer, Hall of Famer, thinks it was a good idea to have a two-and-up fight, the way he did when he, like, before he fought Chavez, for example, and they fought together on the same car.

But I think more specifically, they need the money that they're going to generate from a Ryan Garcia event. Golden Boy doesn't have a lot's going on right now. They didn't have a big year in 2022. and Ryan Garcia is by far and away their biggest moneymaker and biggest name. So of course they're disappointed that he's not going to fight. But I feel like Ryan Garcia, as long as he's going to train and be in shape,

not taking the interim fight was the wise thing to do. Because anything can happen. And conversely, I'm not knocking Tank Davis for taking his interim fight against Jose against Hector-Lu. I actually think that's a much tougher fight than I anticipated when he announced he was going to fight prior to this,

showdown with Ryan Garcia. So I see both sides of the coin, and I don't think that Golden Boy should be criticizing Ryan Garcia. It's his career. It's his life. He's not like he's backing out of the fight against Jervanta Davis. That's the fight he wants. Ryan, and you know Ryan, also, you've done many of his fights with the zone. Ryan is the type of athlete, it has a type of personality, or unless he's motivated for something, it's hard for him to get up for a fight. Not all boxers are like that. Some guys can get up for the lesser fights. For Ryan, he needs to be put. He needs to be motivated. Tank Davis, a guy he's been calling out for like two years, that motivates him.

Fighting Mercito Heston in a fight where we already know what the outcome is, is not motivated. So let him go get his, you know, his skills sharpened up in the gym and, you know, do the road work, get in shape and focus on Davis and fight that big mega fight in April. He doesn't need to fight in January just for whatever reason, just so his promoters can make some money. But yeah, if this fight was going to be at the 136 pound limit that the Tank Davis fight is scheduled to be at, I would understand it to a certain degree. It could almost operate kind of as a staging ground for, you know, Ryan to get ready, make that weight in a healthy manner, and then do it that way. But this was going to be at a full-fledged 140. And so there's no upside there. And as far as the finances go, Ryan's not going to miss that money.

Ryan's not. Ryan makes a lot of money outside the ring. He's not going to miss whatever he was going to make for the Mercedes to fight. He's doing just fine financially with everything he's got going on outside. Social media following alone generates a lot of money for him. So it's not an issue of money for him. And look, if he and Joe Gousson believe it's better for him to stay in the gym for an extra couple of months to just hone in on Giovante Davis, then I'll take their word for it. I agree with you. I think Davis deserves all the credit in the world, not just for taking a before a mega fight against Ryan Garcia, but for taking on someone as challenging as Hector Luis Garcia. I mean, this is a guy coming off two big wins in 2022. He beat Chris Colbert. He beat Roger Gutierrez. I think Bob Santos, his trainer, has a case to be made to be trainer of the year this year. This is a real fight for Giovante Davis on January 7th,

one that could derail a multi, multi-million dollar fight against Ryan Garcia, but he's going through it and deserves credit for it. But at the same time, I'm with you. Ryan doesn't deserve any criticism for saying he doesn't want to fight. My issue with Tank is this nonsense he keeps spewing about Ryan testing or Ryan being on PEDs. Like you can't just throw that shit into the universe. You can't. Like, more importantly, like not only has Ryan said, I'll do advanced testing for our fight.

Golden Boy said the same thing. There still is no contract yet for Garcia versus Tank in April. That's still on the PBC side of the ledger. But when that comes through, both Golden Boy and Garcia have told me that they want advanced testing for that fight. So I don't know why. It's like, it's like, tank sees one picture of Ryan on social media. And he's like, all right, well, this guy's definitely doing something. I don't even know where that came from because, you know, you and I both know there are certain guys where the rumors are always been that, you know, maybe they're using and maybe it looks like they're using.

Ryan Garcia was never one of those guys where, like, even, I mean, you never know for sure what goes on behind the gym doors or whatever with any of these guys. but he was he was not somebody that would come to my mind that was using PEDs I just don't I just don't buy that really and I but to bring that up with zero credibility or or shred of evidence is low class and not called for you want to you know insult his mother or you know tell him he's this or he's that you know that's all grist for the mill when you're promoting a fight and you may mean I love the guy you're going to be fighting against but to throw those type allegations out there to me is just not called for it all and you know, I would just ignore it, to be honest with you.

Yeah, I mean, maybe, look, maybe he's trying to play a middle mind game with Ryan Garcia. I don't know. Or maybe it is just as simple as he looked at a picture of him and said, wow, he looks a lot bigger than I'm used to. Ryan, of course, is still, what, 24 years old at this point. So, yeah, his body is going to keep growing. Yeah, he's, like, he's 5, 9, 510. So, like, he's a big guy. So he's eventually going to put on more weight.

and look tank's going to have the advantage at 136 Ryan's got to squeeze down and I think that's going to be a big variable for when they fight how healthy will Ryan Garcia be when he gets down to 136 if he's drained and just barely making it that's going to be a factor in their fight it's going to be a real weapon or advantage for tank davis he made 135 for the recent fights he had this year and I don't think he looked well no he didn't he did takeo tego was 138 I think because that was his first fight in 15 months and he could have made he says he could have made 135 for Fortuna, but Fortuna said, no, we got to do it at 140. It's not the full 135.

It's 136. He's done it before. He's got plenty of time to do it safely. He's got plenty of money to have a nutritionist to make sure that he's able to do it with no problem. And like I said, I will just go back to what I said at the beginning. I feel like he made a mature decision to focus on the tank fight and not take the interim fight.

Now, he's just got to hope that come January 7th that Davis is successful against Garcia, as we've talked about, not the easiest fight in the world. And by the way, he may have kind of come out of nowhere Garcia, but he is undefeated. He was an Olympian, and he's got, like you said, two great upsets in a row that people didn't really give him a chance to win. And he's earned the shot against Davis. And what I like about Hector Louise Garcia is that after he beat Gutierrez in, you know, this past summer, he automatically right after, like within days of that fight was calling out Tank Davis. I'll go up to 1.30. and fight him. If he wants to come down to

130 and challenge me for my title, no problem. He's wanted this fight as soon as he got that belt. He may even wanted it before he got the belt. So he's motivated and hungry for this fight. He also knows the kind of chaos that he can deal out to these guys if he derails

Jervon to Tank Davis. Yeah, it's not the same thing, but there could be a little Beaville-Kinello vibe to it in a way. Like, are we discounting Hector Luis Garcia coming into this fight. I mean, Garcia physically is the bigger guy. Not that that's ever been a problem for tank before,

but he's not coming in, this undersized guy who's just going to get swarmed and overwhelmed. I think this is a good fight. I'm looking forward to it on January 7th. All right. Last weekend, we had a terrific fight on Showtime. Frank Martin, he beats Michelle Rivera. This was viewed Dan coming in as a 50-50 type of fight

or maybe 60-40 in favor of Martin. It was like 95-5 in favor of Martin when it was over. He drops Rivera. in the seventh round. He wins a lopsided decision. I thought it was an incredibly impressive performance by Frank Mard that made me believe he's ready for a lot of, a lot of things next year at 135 pounds. What did you think? I agree with everything you said. I've liked Frank Martin for the last couple of years since I've seen him on some undercards going back probably two years ago. I've been impressed by him. He has a good amateur background. He has obviously a good team behind

them, you know, training with Derek James and being at the at the side of Errol Spence and Charlo in the training camp. So he's got that going for him. He's also not 22 years old. He's already like 27. So he's as a person more mature. And it just looked like when you watch him like this guy's going places in a pretty

good way that they didn't have to give him 20, 25 fights to get in prepared. He's still in the teens in terms of his total number of bouts, but they're willing to move quickly. He wants to move quickly and he showed against Rivera that there was a reason for that. And by the way, Rivera, who's younger than he was,

you know, didn't shy away from taking this kind of fight either. So I give both guys credit. Listen, Frank Martin, when it was all said done, he did exactly what he said he was going to do. He went in there and he took a good fighter and he completely shut him down. And he won, you know, at worst, nine rounds probably. But in reality, probably won 10 or 11 rounds. I mean, it was just a really good performance.

Like you said, he had the knockdown. He is now from what we thought as a, say, prospect slash rising up-and-comer, or you know, fringe contender, whatever. He made himself with that victory, combined with some of the other solid victories he's had before that, he's now a legitimate top 10 type contender in the lightweight division, which has a lot of talent in it. And he's going to be in position for some good things next year.

He's got, you know, the victory against Rivera, which was a title eliminator for the WBA belt. You know, he could be called as a mandatory for Tank Davis at some point or the winner of Tank Davis against Garcia. you know, also PBC fighters. So he's going to have some business, definitely. And he's going to be involved in some important fights. And I'm a fan.

He does everything. I don't really see, you tell me if I'm wrong, Chris, do you see any glaring weakness in this game? He's got good offense. He's got good defense. He's got good smarts in his mind. You know, he knows the ring. He's got good amateur background. He's got good footwork.

He's got quick hands. He's got quick feet. You know, good enough power. I just don't really see, like, you tell me what's the discernible weakness. I don't see it. No, I don't, I don't think there was a discernible weakness, at least not one I could find in that fight against Rivera. Shout out to Errol Spence for, you know, actually having a real fighter in his stable. I mean, oftentimes, you know this, Dan.

You got these fighters with their promotional companies that don't really have either any fighters or credible fighters. And Frank Martin is a credible fighter, you know, fighting in Errol Spence's promotional stable. I just think he's really good. I think he's really good. I like what's being talked about for what's next. I think Chris Colbert is a good next step for him, someone that's been a title holder, albeit at a division below. But, you know, someone a little bit more experienced, someone with a name.

That's the kind of fight that Frank Martin needs while the 135 pound division kind of sorts it out. I mean, you mentioned Tank and his secondary belt, but eventually we both know whenever Haney Lomachenko happens, if Haney wins, those belts are all going to get fractured all over again. If Womachenko wins, they might get fractured all over again. And there'll be opportunities for Frank Martin to fight for titles. I think he's ready for this time next year, I think he's going to be ready for a world championship shot. I think he is the real deal.

Everything you mentioned, I agree with. Speed, power, ring IQ. He dominated that fight, start to finish. And, you know, Rivera's not a pushover. Like, I'm with you. I give Rivera a ton of credit for taking that fight. I'm not going to criticize him or dismiss him for losing that fight. I hope he gets another date on Showtime at.

some point in the next three or four months. But Frank Martin's the goods. He's the real deal. There's no doubt about it. I think he's ready right now to fight anybody in the lightweight division. Yeah, I would agree with that. All right, last thing. Anthony Joshua, I don't know if he's still in the U.S., he was in the U.S., he's been making the rounds on the trainer circuit again. Most recently spotted with Derek James, of course, the trainer for Errol Spence,

Jamel Charlo, among others, one of the best trainers in all of boxing. I don't know which way Anthony Joshua is leaning. at this point? Is he going to try somebody completely new? Is he going to keep certain members of his team? You never know with this guy. What's going to happen with Joshua? But what do you think of an Anthony Joshua Derek James pairing? Derek James has proven himself to be one of the best trainers in the sport. He's the only trainer in boxing right now that has two unified champions, one of whom is undisputed in Charlo. He obviously also has Spence with the three titles. You know, the fighters do the do the work in the ring. But, you know, the trainer is the guy that helps put that

game plan and make sure the guy's ready to go mentally, physically, knows the X's, knows what they're supposed to do. So Derek would be a great choice. To me, it's always about what's the interaction like between the fighter and the trainer. And I've always said that to a degree, trainers are a little bit overrated. It's all about does the boxer believe in the trainer? So if Anthony Joshua is not satisfied with what occurred with his relationship with Robert Garcia and he's looking to move on, that's his decision. But from my point of view, on the outside, watching what occurred, I know he lost the fight to Ussick, but I thought, thought that Anthony Joshua fought as well against Ousek in that loss that he had in the previous

fight in the lost to Ousek as well as some of his other victories, I felt like there was a real chance to have a building thing with Robert Garcia there and that he probably should have kept him. And it would have reminded me of was the great trainer, my long-departed friend, the great Emmanuel Stewart. He hooked up with Vladimir Klitsko when he was at the low moment of his career. And in their first fight together, he lost against Lehman Bruster by knockout. in a vacant WBO heavyweight title fight. And a lot of people thought, well, you know, he lost that fight. His career's down the drain again.

He's going to find a new trainer yet again and get rid of Emmanuel because he didn't win that first fight with him. He didn't get rid of Emmanuel. They stayed together. He came back. He ultimately defeated Samuel Peter in an excellent performance. He went on to win a world title against Chris Bird and then ended up making, you know, 18 title defenses.

Now, Emmanuel obviously passed away at the tail end of his title reign, but they were together for a long time. and together they helped build him into one of the great heavyweight champions in the history of boxing. And if he had gotten rid of him after that one loss, you know, who knows what would have happened to him? And I'm not saying that Anthony Joshua was going to reach the level that Clitchco did, even though he beat Clitchco back several years ago. But losing with Robert Garcia in your corner in the first fight and fighting as well as he did made me think, well, you know, there's something they can build on. Robert Garcia has a long track record, longer than most trainers in this sport, of being a top top trainer. he's been a world champion himself as a professional.

And so I actually was disappointed that he's going to part ways with Robert Garcia. I felt like they probably should have stayed together. Now, if there was some kind of issue that I'm not aware of that was going on in the camp or in that fight, then so be it. But from the outside, that seemed like an unusual match to start with. But when you watch what actually the result was in the ring, you know what, that might work. Obviously, Anthony Joshua was not satisfied. He's looking around.

But, you know, he did that the last time. he worked with Robert Garcia. He went and worked with, you know, I guess, Virgil Hunter and with Ronnie Shields and, you know, other maybe Buddy McGirt might have been another one. Maybe he worked with Derek before getting ready to make the decision the last time. I don't know. But they're all good trainers. But at some point, at some point Anthony Joshua has to look at himself. He's the guy that lost the fights, not the trainer. And he's got to come to grips with that. And I'm not sure he's done that quite yet. I agree with you. One thing I would add, like, is Anthony Joshua finally prepared to move to the U.S. to train for a fight?

because I don't think Derek James is going to the UK with Jermel Charlo training for a January 28th fight, with Errol Spence presumably training for a March, April, or May fight. Like, these are his guys. He's not waving goodbye to them so we can go train Anthony Joshua. Frank Martin also. I mean. And these guys aren't going to pick up and pack and go. to, you know, Anthony Joshua's gym to train for a couple of months.

That ain't going to happen. And by the way, same thing with Robert Garcia, who's going into a big year with Bam Rodriguez. He's got Josh Franco fighting on New Year's Eve. Like, he's got some other fighters, of course, Ramirez. He's got guys. So, like, Anthony Joshua, I think the biggest question is Anthony Joshua willing to leave his comfort zone. Because I've always said that's a big thing here.

Like, not just changing trainers, finding a voice that works, but getting out of the UK. He's so well known in the UK. He's a superstar over there. He comes over here. Nobody knows who he is. I mean, let's just be honest. Like, they don't. Like, he works out in, you know, where is the Dallas area?

They probably wonder, is that like a linebacker for the Cowboys? A big 6-5 muscle guy. Like, is he? Like, they don't know. Like, he's not this known commodity. He can walk down the street with a measure of anonymity. And I think that's good for Anthony Joshua. Yeah.

I was just to say it. I think that would be good for him to go to a place where, you know, when he gets up and he goes for a coffee, he's not going to be hassled or stop by anybody. He can go into his own, you know, privacy, do his thing. You know, and I understand that there's part of him that probably enjoys, you know, with the ego of being recognized where you go and having people stop you and shaking your hand. It's not working. Correct.

So I think that there's something to be said for that. If he's so insistent on having an American trainer, in other words, you don't hear him making the rounds and looking at other, you know, it's not like he went. I mean, I don't know this, but he's not heard that he's, oh, I'm going to go work out with, you know, Shane McGuigan, or I'm going to go work out with this trainer or I'm going to go out and work with Joe Gallagher. You know, he's not making the rounds for the UK top trainers. It's always been about coming to the United States to feel out who the top trainers are in the United States.

So it would make sense that if he's going to do that, to might as well train here if you're going to make that commitment because, as you said, I don't see Derek James packing up from his gym and then the great fighters he has. And look, Robert Garcia made the, you know, he made that concession and went and trained Anthony for the most part, preparing for Usik in the UK for that fight. But I don't think he would do that necessarily permanently because, like you said,

he's got lots of other fighters. He was able to be in a situation where he's got his assistance and his son that can also work with the fighters that they have. But I'm going to go back to what I said originally. This is not about the trainer. Any of those trainers that he could select, whether he stays with Robert, he goes with Derek James, or maybe he decided to ask Buddy McGirt or Virgil Hunter, or all the guys that we've talked about, Ronnie Shields.

I mean, all great trainers. he's got to look at himself he's the one that lost these fights it's not the trainer that can fight for me and i think that joshua who i love i've always liked anthony joshua both as a fighter and as a person he's going through some stuff mentally where he's just not sure can i still be an elite heavyweight and uh he's you know he if you really want to get down to it he hasn't really quite been the same since the fight against clitchco which he won but he had some extremely rocky moments got dropped and and was able to come back but that was a in my opinion sort of a career-altering fight in some regard.

And I still don't think over that. It was, Dan, it was, it was in the sense that he went to people in Matrum and said, I don't want to fight like this anymore. Like, I don't want to be in wars in the ring after the Clitio fight. That absolutely changed him. I mean, people who went to the Ruiz fight, the first one as changing him. And maybe it did. But the Clitio fight was first, even though he won that fight that had a fundamental change on him.

And now he's got to decide what kind of fighter is he going to be. and am I willing to put the work and to try to get back to the top and not having alibis and blaming other people? When you change trainers after a loss, it appears the way, at least from the outside, that it's an alibi that you're blaming the trainer because you lost.

When, in fact, if you ask anybody that has a clue about boxing, they will tell you that even though he lost that fight against Ussick, who was always going to be a difficult matchup for him, that he fought better under the tutelage of Robert Garcia in that match than he did. in a number of his previous fights. So I thought they did a good job. I felt like there was something to build on.

And Joshua has made the decision that he doesn't want to build on it. His prerogative, I'm not going to be critical of that. But look within to see what the problem is, not about who you're around. Yeah, I think you need some consistency, too. Like find a trainer, pick a trainer, work with the trainer, hopefully work with the trainer outside of the UK. So you can really lock in on these remaining three years. Really this year is the biggest year, I think, of Anthony Joshua's career coming up

with some crossroads, career-defining types of fights. Dan, always good to catch up, man. Happy Hanukkah, happy Festivus, Merry Christmas, all those good things to you and to your family, and I'll see you very soon. I appreciate it, Chris. Thank you so much. And you have yourself a great holiday also. And when we come back, former junior welterweight title holder, Jose Ramirez. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque, others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clipper Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, personal health, personal health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

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And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

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I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Santa Barclay is back. And this year, he's giving a new Fanduil customer exactly what you asked for. Unwrap the gift of no sweat first bet. Up to $2,500 back in free bets when you sign up with the promo code boxing. That's up to $2,500 back if your first bet doesn't win. Now is the perfect time to give Fandul a shot.

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up to $2,500 back in free bets from Santa Barclay when you sign up with promo code boxing. All right, Jose Ramirez is the former 140 pound champion. And ordinarily, I'd be talking to Jose before a big fight. He's been involved in a number of big fights over the last couple of years, the World Boxing Super Series, where he was the runner-up, lost a close, tough fight to Josh Taylor. You know, he fought Mori Soker in a terrific fight back in 2019. So he's been involved in a lot of big fights over the last few years.

But we're talking right now because there's a fight that's not happening. specifically Jose Ramirez against Regis program. I want to unpack some things with Jose because when negotiations fall apart, Jose, guys get on Twitter and you've got managers battling back and forth. And everybody seems to kind of get confused over what actually happened with the breakdown of talks between you and Regis Progress. So start there from your perspective. What's happened over the last week or so that has led to your decision and your team's decision not to go forward with a fight against Regis Probrey?

Yeah, well, first and foremost, you know, the team is aware and my manager is aware that that I still haven't made a decision clearly to walk away from this fight. You know, I, you know, I believe I could be Regis Progress. I believe that I'm one of the stronger fighters in the one border. You know, used to me fought hook up close, and my style of boxing is not just come forward. You know, I have an experience in the amateur, since the amateurs, second to none, you know, became an Olympian for over 200 amateur fights and beat a lot of, a lot of styles, a lot of different styles. being an aggressive sort of, you know, Mexican style, come forward, no defense.

You don't become an Olympian for team USA having that type of style. You know, you got to learn how to box, and how to hit and not get hit, especially when you're only fighting three rounds. You know, usually old school style of Mexican boxing. Usually, you know, it works out on the professionals because you have 12 rounds to break down a fighter,

or not three. usually a lot of fighters that have that style are struggling the first couple rounds and because of the well conditions and other aspects and other characteristics that they might have as a fighter they end up winning the fight you know i'm not that case you know i have i have have a great boxing i believe i have a great boxing style that you know and great power and my size and i'm physical physically strong you know even my own dispute fight with Josh Taylor. It wasn't my best performance.

I think it wasn't the Jose Ramirez that I know I could be. And if you score the fight by the rounds, it was still a very, very close fight. The first five rounds, almost like, I had the same feeling, the first five rounds as the feeling when I fought hooker. You know, it's only a matter of a couple more rounds, and I'm going to take it to the next.

I'm going to take it to the next gear. You know, my problem with, for Taylor's, I made one mistake. And the mistake was when running clinched, the referee, you know, tap my album, because I'm a very respectful fighter, kind of clean fighter. You know, I was going to step back. Now, when I was going to step back, there was an uppercut that I came in. It took me, at the moment, I'm a fighter. I'm thinking I'm okay.

I'm going back and looking at the fight, yeah, yes, I could tell it took me a couple more rounds to get my legs under me. Right? So I gave away, first and foremost, that knockdown, it was a 10-8 round, and I gave away another two rounds after that, you know, but I finish strong. Another thing that I, that I, my mistake in the fight was the way I did my weight cut. It wasn't the best way. So sometimes, you know, when you need to be hydrate last minute and you don't behydrate probably to where you're all balanced a little bit. You know, you all balance a little bit, a little bit, and your body's a little fatigue. But anyways, moving forward, with that said, I just want to make it very clear.

I'm not a fair. I'm not afraid to face no one for, no one I want for it. I believe I could beat them all, you know, and I think anybody to pee me, they have to really sweat. There was an interview, interview with Josh Taylor when they asked me, what do you think about Regis and Jose? And he said, well, Jose is definitely the strong physical fighter. And he could tell you, you know, if you're in front of me, you will talk, you sport with me. Those two have scored from my whole career, Mani Paki, Y'all, Miguel Koto.

Man, you know, they know that I bring it. Now, the difference between me when I was, when I first became a role champion in 2018, against a year I'm on when I made $125,000, $150,000 to my first role title, you know, you will not aware of the business. You will not really aware of value or what you bring to the table. you tend you tend to learn that as you go and you know you tend to realize that boxing is your business and you got to take care of your business now unfortunately unfortunately you start learning about politics as well you know and we just signed with a promoter that doesn't have a network behind that promoter

provillum does not make business with tubbring at all now now this split came 70, 30, the WBC split. And so I petitioned that. I asked Topper and, hey, you know, let's write a letter, send that to the WBC. Let me know that. If there's someone bringing the network will be me, which means that network will come with a real number,

a real number of what the spy could possibly be worth. You know, not an unknown number, a real number, and we can look at a percentage based on that number, and we have a better idea of what's our conversation to fight. But then the ESPN and my promoters, they're not really interested in doing that. When they're going to make a guy, especially from a promoter that they make zero business with, get most of the money. When the split came back at 65, 35, so I'm pushing reaches.

And I went like head to head with them. I was like, your job is to learn the business, man. Go and tell you, tell you advice to your promoters to find a network, to find interest in this fly and send me an offer, a good offer, man. I can't go base 35%. of an unknown bidder. You know, this is not, this is not 35% of a pay-per-view fight, because it's not even going on a parapropeer. You know, but we need to make sure who's going to bid, you know.

I legally cannot go out there and, because I'm still on the contract with Topbring, and try to do all that by myself, you know. My, my only that would do is trying to give an idea of what Topbring might bid, depending on what E.S.P.N. gives them. But, you know, I found very little interest. So I'm being kind of let alone to try to carry this fight,

to be made. He doesn't, man, he doesn't seem like he's interested to do anything about it. Like he's like, oh, I'm just a batterer. I don't know, you know, I have to have a team that does that. I just fight. Don't be stupid, man. Don't be stupid, you know, because. I think, I think, too, let me, let me jump in with a couple things. I think, too, you're right. His, his management team has tried to drum up some interest from the other major promoters, match room, for example. I don't get the sense that Matchroom, at least right now, is interested in getting into the pro-grade business at the moment. Golden Boy, not interested at the moment either. And that limits it. Like, as you know, like, there's only a handful of big promoters with money behind them. What I was interested in, Jose, was, I tend to agree with what I've said this. 6535 is not a fair split for you because. boosts 35% of a $10 million pie, I'll take it any day. Right.

But even still, even still, like, you know, you're, you're the attraction, if that fight's going to be in Fresno, you've got, it's your promoter's money that's behind it. But my question for you, Jose, is what, is there a number that works for you? Is there a number where you would take that fight? 100%. Man, if it was, there's a minimum that I have to protect me because I, you know, again, as I learned the business, I learned the value I bring to even top rank and the interest and the view, the viewership that I have every time I fight on ESPN. So I, I, I educate myself with these

numbers and I know what my value is. So I do have a minimum with top rank in the minute and, and my minimum with top rank exceed $1 million, you know, and I haven't fought for a million dollars since 20 since well I went straight up on 500,000 to to 1.5 and then to 3 million and then you know a couple of those those seven-figure fights but my minimums because because my minimums was set at just a little bit over a million so if it reaches if it's if it reaches at 1.5 I'll take the fight you know it just it's just such a risky and unknown number it could land to a 35% it's equivalent to $300,000

it makes $400,000. It makes no sense. But when you were petitioning for an improved number, that's kind of what I'm trying to get at. Like, is there a percentage? Would you have done the fight had gone forward with a perspid at 40% for example? Yeah, so my goal was to get to a split

that was going to get the interest of ESPN. At this point, there's no interest in there on ESPN or Topping. And in this point, Topping is not interested. to making a guy who's with Provenom 65% of the bid. So then there won't be no bid to my understanding. Yeah, no, I don't think there will not be, there will not be a bid. But what's, I think what frustrates some people, and this has nothing to do with,

what pressure. So I'm trying to educate regions that if it's 50, 50, I might get ESPN interested in making a bid. And you right, you should be smart on to understand that 50% of a bigger number is much better than 65, 70% of an unknown, very little number. You know, so that frustrates me, you know, because this is my business. And I know it's important to fight for a belt. For the belts, we'll come sooner or later because there's contracts. And I know, I know regions do not sign a lifetime contract with probelum.

So when you understand the business, you could decide you can make better decisions. Look at, look at with match room and top ring day when we fought with hooker. That was a great, there was back, vaccines, negotiations. that I had with my team go out there and speak to Eddie Hernd. And Eddie Hunter is a wonderful, it's a great promoter. He's a great person. Made it very easy. Treated us with so much respect.

And I went and it's not so much of where I fight. It's not so much of who I fight. You know, it's just, is that we both get compensated because this is not an easy sport. At the end of the day, man, fans, they love you one day. So when I be hooker and I came back, man, you know, everything was, you know, I was getting all this support. And, you know, you have, even if you have a, you have a, even if you don't have your best performance and any father could agree with this.

You know, they turn the backs, you know, and then, and also it seems to me that as the moment that that you start making more than what they, with the fan-based style that you probably, the moment that you start making this much money, and they see that kind of the lifestyle that you start moving,

then they kind of start cheering for the other, dog, the guy that's making very insane, you know, you know, let's go for this shirt for this guy because, you know, I could relate to this guy, La La Laisna, you know, and people need to understand that I, I'm still one of, I'm still very touchable. You're in the community of Freson and where I live and who I know, you know, I'm, I haven't changed him, I'm still the same guy. I act this, I act the same, and, and I love what I do, but I just saying I'm not stupid man I'm not I'm not and I can't carry the soul fight by myself and and getting this blame that Jose's walking away I haven't walked away to the day tomorrow they

will send me an offer that I'll see it my minimum just by doesn't even exceed it just guarantees me that I'll make a little bit that I'll make what my minimums are you know then I'll fight but then and I'll still be losing I still be losing that the fight might go into this network that has no platform that has no experience, you know, and, you know, fighting on the zone, fighting on ESPN, those are well-experienced platforms, you know. So sometimes the viewership kind of make up and compensate some of that money as well, too, you know, because I'm an entertainer and I want to showcase my talent to the most people. What do you think, Jose, let me ask you this.

What do you think of what's happening with you right now is getting compared to what Virgilort did, who is represented by the same manager as you in all this. And, you know, your manager seemed fine with Virgil Ortiz taking 25% of a split. And he's in a kind of a similar situation that he's the well-known guy. He's got the major backer behind him. He's going to be selling tickets in Texas for that fight. He's only getting guaranteed like half a million. And it sounds like Golden Boy, and maybe it's the network too, is going to kick in a little extra cash to make sure he gets there. Like, is that should my question of you is, should top rank not do that for you? Should ESPN not do that for you to make a big fight happen?

That's, you said that's a difference. So it's a golden boy, golden boys and the zone are stepping up into making sure Virgil's treated perfectly. And that 25% does not equivalent what that is, the final number. that Virgil will be getting and understanding the overall value at Virgil wins. I think Virgil will win the fight and the network, the network and the promoter understands that. And that's a difference between that situation and mine.

Minus, you know, if I was making, you know, minus that, I don't have that support. Why is that, though? Like, why can you get that? Because you've been big for top rank for years. I haven't, I can't speak on the, I can't speak because I, you know, that's one. thing that I'm not I'm very unclear on why the politics differences between previllum and top rent nothing that that that that kicks in but it's bad but Jose it's it's bad between golden boy and PBC too they ain't talking like that went to a purse bid they're they're

they're not having conversations about making like golden boy just won the purse bid and now they're going to make sure that Virgil is getting probably to like that low seven figure number you know those are some those are the same questions I'm asking myself and asking my manager to communicate with Taubberman, but, you know, we already got to find an answer, man. And it's like, you know, I'm kind of being kind of led, you know, I'm kind of being let alone in this, you know what I mean? But listen, here's one thing that I'm excited for is that there's great 140-pound fighters.

Devin Haney, he's moving up to 140 soon. Tio Pimo Lopez just moved up to 140. Brian Garcia is at 140 now. Those names, especially Tio Pimo and Devinan, who are in-house fighters and this had of the finals fights that could be made. You know, so I don't need reaches at the end of the day.

And that's what gives me a little bit of stability and it's all keeps me composed, you know, knowing that. The sooner or later, the fights will come. I hope, a whole, yeah, a whole, I hope Regis was signed with the zone in that and the match, and then, and then, I think Regis' team hopes,

I think Regis's team hopes he signs with match room, with, I think that's, there's truth to that. Then, yeah, then this fight would have been happening now, and it would have been a massive block promoter, you know, because Taubring has done business with matchroom boxing, you know, obviously with me and Hooker, you know, you know, but that's not the case. And, and I'm worried, I felt like I, you know,

the pandemic really hurt a lot of fighters, but I think it really hurt me. You know, it hurt me a lot. They kept me away. In 2020, when it took me practically from November of 2019, I started my training camp to fight post-toll, and it didn't happen until August 29 because I was postponing of the fights. And then in 2021, I fought Taylor for the only speed of championship,

you know and and i promise i you know to fight the best in the division and to go after all the belts and that's what i did so it the question of for me being afraid to fight the best that's not it at all no you you've never you'd never been afraid to fight anybody that that's of course not like there's no you're never been afraid to fight anybody but but like my my thing what i would ask you the jose is like you're right like teafimo taylor hayney perhaps eventually there's opportunity there for you to get a belt, to get big fights. I would say this, though, you know, you just turned 30. I don't know if, if I look at just the landscape, next year, it might be tough for you to get that fight because it sounds like Taylor is going

to have his fight, then maybe Teafimo after that. Hayton, he's going to do his thing with Lomachenko, then who knows? It's a great part, Chris. I only got two fights led with Toppern, and that I'm a free agent. There's options for me, man. I've been willing to, I've been willing to, I've been willing to, I've I've been ready to move to 1-40-7. I spoke to my ex-coach, even Marvin Samudian and Freddie Roach. I met him at the North. I went to go to the Kennel fight when he fought against football in Las Vegas. And I came across them, and they're like, L'A, he moved to 1-4-7.

You know what you could do. My ex-coaches, you know, you know, being a free agent just opens up a whole amount of opportunity. And the top ring obviously wants me to resign with them. They have to feed me a guy like Tiofimo or a guy like Demi-Heyman, you know, because that's who I am. I need to take care of my future. You know, I'm not just a dumb guy who says, so. So, so that's, that's, that's where, that's where, you know, I have to, I had, I had, I would like to fight early, early this year, you know.

And that's why I want to move forward. Sometimes I feel like, let me just move forward in my career and just get one fight as a way. And then the second one, it'll be my last five with Topper and, you know, they gave me a good name, you know. Again, there's a minimums in my bag. So financially, I'm going to be okay. you know but uh and i've done okay my career you know um i've done just fine but i uh you know i'm gonna start exceeding i'm in the driver's see i'm gonna start asking for those fights and and you know and let's get it let's get it on because i know two people is not dumb it's not dumb enough to go

in 30% and begin in the situation i'm in right now you know 30% but unknown unknown number i know his dad says oh you know they you know they're it's easy for the dad to do all the talking and stuff like that, but when it comes to it, man. We'll see if he does, if he doesn't. But not get, you know, get ready because I'm, I'm ready, you know. And I know Topping has had inside talks and they're interested in making that fight happen. It's a big fight on the SPS inside house.

Now, Damien is moving up, too. That's another big fight. I could put myself on the reggae and says the DVO, you know, work my way up, finding those big names. You know, if I beat TEOFEMO, that puts me real high in the Derbyo, you know. I would just be prodrosso when he was drinking number four in the debut. I've been in early this year. And it was my first five coming after since May of last year.

But I was a little tense because, you know, it was after I lost, but I could have put away to Duttle, you know. I'm just like I could tell it was a different level. You know, he was trying to survive because he felt my jab in the first shot. And he felt smart. And I took my time too. I felt very cautious. That's the most cautious I've ever fought.

But that's what someone does when trying to get their confidence back, back up, you know, and I went out after a guy who was the two-time role champion. I haven't taken no easy fight since I became a champion. He didn't before to try to get the Derbc shot against Samir Amon. I stopped Matt Reed, who was an Olympic alternative, and he was 22 and no, or 23 and no at the time, and I stopped him in two rounds, you know, to go and fight against Ramon. So there's no question of my resume, you know, and there's no question what I could do,

man. I just, you know, I'm excited. I'm excited for my future because once I'm a pre-adrant, man, this whole politics, you know, it ain't gonna, you know, it's not gonna, it's not gonna hold me back. And I think that's what the people need to understand that. The only, I'm being hold, I'm kind of being hold back a little bit right now. And it's not fair, you know, and people, I know people, it's easier at all, but they go, but it's a WBC, but it's a WC belt. Man, I've been a WBC champion and it doesn't make no difference. People are still going to just like, you know, you for whatever the reasons they have. So you need to focus on you and your family. And, you know, and I'm going to do what I do in the ring, and I'm going to give my heart out, you know. So hopefully people respect that.

And that's all I could do. It's just give them my best. But at the same time, you know, I got my family and, and I got to take care of myself and them. You know, because you're not going to fight for, you know, boxing is not like you could be a doctorate until you're 60 years old, you know, boxing, you have a... Oh, you got a short, short self-life to make a lot of money.

I totally get that. Last question for you. So is the plan short-term Richard Comey in March? Is that kind of what you're being presented with at this point? And, like, how long will you wait until, like, will you still hold out hope they'll make a program fight? We need to, we need time to promote my next fight. So, you know, I'm willing into the end of the year. So I'm glad I'm having this interview.

So again, do my message to Regis and to any network. If you guys are interested in this, but the thing is that the zone and any other huge network, unless they, unless they're fighters, there's no reason for them to invest on a fighter that they don't, you know, have by the contract. It doesn't benefit the zone in any way. It doesn't benefit matriman anyway to, you know,

or Golden Boy or, you know, to buy this fight because I'm still legally contract with Top Rank and then Regis Stewart Probellum. You know, so not, you already know where I sit with my promoter. So, you know, the only, the only person is for that guy to learn the business and within two days and go out there and start asking questions because their promoters have a right to give him the champion right now, the best fights. And it seems like they're not doing that.

The whole management team is not doing that, you know, but at the end of the day, man, the fights are going to happen and, and before the year ends, I could be in a position where I have all this options, you know, and if staying with top ring makes sense to me, then that'll stay with top ring. If not, you know, we'll see, we'll see what's out there.

The good thing is that in my contract, even if I become a champion by my second bite in my next fight, there's nothing that could hold me back from staying with top ring, unless I want to stay. So it's not like there's nothing in my, contract that says if you become a champion, you know, your contract extends. And I know a lot of promoters do that. And I did my, when I did when I became a champion against your mom, but that part already ended.

I extended my contract with them for a couple more fights after they gave me the Taylor fight, you know. But I think that's why, you know, Richard Combs has been presented to me, but they have to present me to a bigger fight. you know, I'm willing to be back in that ring again for the second fight before September. Jose, I appreciate your time, man. I mean, like you said, 140 is hot right now, man. It's a great division.

You know, you throw Ryan Garcia into that mix later on in the year. Presumably he's at that weight class, another big name. I hope you get into it, man. You're a fun fighter, and hope you see you back real soon. Now, listen, man, this fighter's tank, Brian, even. Even David Haney is doing, he's putting, he's doing a little bit more than the other guys. But the other guys, when they, they love to talk and only name each other, you know, and those fights are not happening. So I'm there to destroy their plans and they take the fight against me, bro.

So, you know, I know I could be Brian Garcia, and I know I could be David Haney, and I know I could be Tiofimo Lopez and tank. You know, so when those guys are really, I want to step away from. all this nice propaganda that's working for them, you know, and this well-marketing job that they're doing, calling each other out for the last five since they turned professional, you know, and they're finding guys who are way behind, you know, they're finding guys who are very unknown, but because they continue talking about each other,

the fans seem to kind of, okay, let's give them one break, let's give them a break. When they're really to actually make the big fight type of men, I'll be there too. I'll be there, and so I'm excited about the 140. You know. Bob, looking forward to it, Jose. Good luck. Hope you get everything you want this year, man. Yeah, God willing, bro.

Thank you. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Dan Rayfield and Jose Ramirez for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letter

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