The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Fury-Ngannou...it's happening

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

Chris is joined by Keith Idec to talk about the breaking news that Fury-Ngannou is confirmed. Does Francis have a chance against, Fury, Boots domination over the weekend, and what's next for Vergil Ortiz. Later, Alycia Baumgardner stops by to talk about her fight this weekend and her rivalry with Mikaela Mayer. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hosted by S.I's Chris Mannix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. All right, this is Boxing with Chris Manix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast. We're going to welcome everybody listening on their podcast fee. Thank you for that.

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Thank you to those that are watching. This show is available via YouTube as well. Subscribe to the Volume Sports YouTube page. And occasionally, we are on AMP. You can follow me on AMP at Chris Manix to get an earlier version every so often of this show. Got a great show. lined up for you this week. Alicia Baumgartner, the undisputed 130-pound champion. She is back in action this weekend when she takes on Christina Linadartu. That is a title defense in her hometown

of Detroit, Michigan. That's a fight you can watch live on DeZone. The first time, Baumgartner is headlining in her hometown of Detroit. It is also a rematch of the only loss of Baumgartner's career. That's right. Christina Linna Dardartu has one win over Alicia Baumgartner. She's trying to make it two. and become the undisputed champion at 1.30 in the process. So I talked to Alicia about all that, the pressures of fighting in her hometown, her future, whether it's at 1.30 or 135, all that much more, a little bit later in the show. But first, I do love it when there is boxing news right before we record the podcast.

Because too often we record and then boxing news breaks. This time, we have big boxing news before we start recording. Tyson Fury, the lineal heavyweight champion. He is going to face Francis Nagano, the former UFC heavyweight champion in a boxing match, October 28th in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. This was a fight that was in the water supply for some time. There was some talk about it being a hybrid matchup, boxing rules in an MMA ring, MMA rules in a boxing ring.

No, this will be a straight boxing match, three judges, 10 point must system. it will be, I believe, a sanctioned boxing event, but Tyson Fury's title, his WBC title, will not be on the line in this one. It's going to be a fun event for sure. I certainly have my skepticism about Nagano's ability to compete in a boxing ring with arguably the best heavyweight in the world, with a pound-for-pound heavyweight. It's just going to be really difficult, but it will be a fun event, and certainly will have a lot of buzz going into it to talk about that fight and much more with what's going on in boxing.

I want to bring Keith Idex, senior writer over at boxing scene.com. It's a great job covering boxing for that outlet. Keith, let's just start here. Your reaction to Tyson Fury and Francis Naganoe getting these negotiations over the finish line, getting a fight signed and sealed for October 28th in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Well, it's going to generate a lot of interest, Chris, among casual sports fans and people who don't ordinarily watch boxing, which I guess, to some degree is a good thing.

Boxing fans are going to, for the most part, dislike it because, of course, the people who passionately follow this sport and the people who cover it like you and me, we would much rather have seen Tyson Fury fight Alexander Usik. I mean, to determine the first fully unified heavyweight champion of the four belt era, that's what we wanted, but I don't blame Tyson Fury for chasing this type of payday. And again, it's going to generate a lot of mainstream interest because of Ganu's among MMA fans and it's going to be a, it's going to get a lot of attention, whether it's an enormous event.

I don't know if an event is enormous when it's in Saudi Arabia because it's plopped in the middle of the sand where no one do they care about, but I don't know. I mean, it's an event for wealthy people, I suppose. And Chris, you've covered some of these fights over there, you know, the Andy Ruiz Joshua fight. I mean, my guess is there are not a lot of rabid boxing fans in Saudi Arabia. So it's more like a social event than anything. So the atmosphere is not going to be great.

But for these guys, what it's ultimately about is being paid the most money you can get. And for Ngano, who walked away from UFC, this is the best way to do that. Does he have any chance to beat Tyson Fury in a boxing match, despite that he's heavy-handed? I sincerely doubt it. But that really doesn't matter, I guess, because the Saudis are paying a huge sums of money for this fight. And whether we like it or not, it's happening. Yeah, MMA fans are the reason this is happening, because MMA fans, regardless of the history, will always believe their guy can win. Always. Like, they believed wholeheartedly that Connor McGregor was going to beat Floyd Mayweather.

They have believed over the last couple of years that Ben Ascran or Tyron Woodley or Anderson Silva was going to beat Jake Paul. And by the way, Nate Diaz. Nate Diaz is going to be the next one that gets squashed by Jake Paul. Like, we're not going to get into that fight just yet, but that's the outcome. But MMA fans always believe, and they believe that Nagano, this big, scary puncher in MMA, is going to be the one that topples Tyson Fury. I don't know what kind of percentage, Keith, that you would put on it, but I'm going to go like 0.0.001% chance that Nagano wins.

Like, maybe if Tyson Fury breaks his hand on Nagano's head and has to fight the duration with one hand. Maybe Nagano wins then. But in a straight boxing match under boxing rules, he has no chance. No chance. And I say this, as I think you would agree, if Tyson Fury stepped in the cage and put on those little gloves and fought Nagano in that environment, he would lose. He would get squashed. They are both combat sports, but they have nothing in common whatsoever.

I agree with you that it's, you know, boxing purists will say, like, what the hell? Like, what are we doing? Why are we doing this again? But if you're Tyson Fury and you're going to get paid. $10, $30 million, whatever it may be for a fight with less risk than any major boxing match that you could take. Of course you do it. Of course you jump at it. And if you're Naganoo and you sign this deal with PFL, which is probably going to make him good money, more money than he probably would have made in UFC. But if you have a chance to make $10, $20, $30 million, whatever it turns out

to be, to fight a fight that's probably not going to hurt your standing in mixed martial arts, you do that as well. So look, it's a cashier. grab. We know the outcome. The buildup's going to be fun. They're both going to yap at each other. Tyson Fury is going to make a spectacle out of it. Uh, M.M.A fans will plop down 60, 70, 80 bucks, whatever it turns out to be on pay-per-view here in the U.S. and we'll all go home with Tyson Fury either carrying Nagano to a wide decision loss or dropping him in the six, seventh, or eighth round. I mean, I don't know how, I don't know what your official prediction for that fight would be if you have one just yet. But I'm going to go.

with the Fury stoppage in round six. He carries him for four or five and then stops him in the six. But that's the way this ends ultimately. Yeah, I agree, Chris. I think he'll ultimately stop him. You know, he's not a boxer and he's not accustomed to fighting 10, three-minute rounds or, you know, however long this fight might last. So there's no way that you wouldn't favor Tyson Fury by a lot to win this fight.

But I don't blame, you know, like I said, I don't blame these guys for going for the money and trying to, you know, just make how much ever money they can in the short window of time that they have to do it, especially at a former UFC fighter, as we well know, Chris, these UFC fighters, I'm not saying they're making peanuts necessarily at the top level, but in comparison to what the top level boxers make, they are making a lot less money. So this is their opportunity, much like it was for Connor McGregor. Now, Gano is going to make anywhere close to the $100 million or so that McGregor made for fighting Floyd Mayweather, but it's going to be the biggest payday of his career. And so you can't blame guys for doing that. And as you said, Chris, yeah, if,

If they fought in a mixed martial arts match, you know, and Gano would twist Tyson Fury into a pretzel and make him to have, whatever, I mean, of course, but that's kind of why it's a little silly. But, yeah, you'd favor Fury to win the fight. The one thing I would say, you know, a lot of the boxing fans or people within the boxing industry,

oh, you have to strip Tyson Fury now, he's not fighting. Well, he defended his title in December. It's only July. And if Jamal Charlo can keep the WBC middleweight title for the rest his life, then there's no reason why Tyson Fury should be stripped of his title for taking this, you know, circus-like event in between title defenses. You know, MMA fans, too, that have been in my social media mentions referencing, you know, wins by Anderson Silver over Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr., Anthony Pettis over Roy Jones, Veter Belford over at Vanderholyfield. This is a completely

different animal altogether. Oh, Vanda Holyfield is 60 years old. Exactly. Roy Jones was as long since washed up. And Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr., is a mess. You have a prime heavyweight champion in Tyson Fury. There's no chance your guy wins. No chance. Zero. I will take any odds you want to put out there on that fight. No chance he wins. You know, I think it bothers me about this matchup, Keith, is the timing. October 28th is months away. You know, you've got Ussic fighting in August. My hope was that Fury would fight in Ghanu, or whoever, in August or September. And maybe then you could get a fight between those two, end of this year, early next year.

Does it feel to you like that fight, you get even more distance between that fight happening and not based on this announcement? You would have to, right? Because there was all this talk about this double-header in December and Saudi Arabia. That's obviously out the window if he's fighting, even if it's an easy fight October 28th. Tyson Fury is not the kind of guy who's going to fight October 28th and get back in the gym two weeks later to fight and to set. That's not happening.

So I never really believed that, that they were going to put those two fights on with all the purses that would, even with the Saudis printing money, you know, that's a lot of money to put out in purses for those four guys. So I didn't, I never really believe that was going to happen anyway, but clearly it's not going to happen now. And I will stick to what I said, Chris. I mean, I'll believe that Anthony Joshua is going to fight Deonté Wilder when I see it. I've been saying that on this podcast forever. You've been consistent on that. I don't believe that it's going to happen. I don't think he'll lose to Dillian White, so he'll clearly be in position for that fight to happen.

But I just don't see it happening. I think, by the way, Joshua Dillion White is the right fight. Like I said this last week on the pod, but unless that Saudi deal is signed sealed ink, you can't expect it to happen. You can't sit out and wait for that fight to happen. And Dillian White, yeah, there's some danger to it. But, you know, this fight sold out in hours. It's a big event.

It's going to do well on UK pay-per-view. Josh was going to make a boatload of money, not the money he was going to make or may make in Saudi Arabia, but he'll make a significant payday for this fight. And it's a very winnable fight for him. Like Dillion White talks a lot. I love the press conference, the back and forth. That was fun.

But Dillion White's been knocked out two of his last four fights. I don't, you know, every fight for Joshua was dangerous at this point because he's not what he used to be. But this to me feels like the exact fight he should be taking. Second fight with Derek James, big fight in the UK, big payday, some danger, but enough. reward for the risk. I feel like this is the right fight for him.

Yeah, all those things are true, Chris, and this is a fight that has, you know, been talked about for years ever since they fought the first time. And then obviously, Josh Oronan to become a world champion and a unified world champion. So Dillian White has been chasing this rematch for quite some time. They're finally making it happen. And you're right, White's at the point now where he's dangerous enough that he's a sellable opponent. In the UK, it's a huge fight. I mean, people can crap on the fight all that they want, but it's going to make a lot of money over there because, as you said, the O2 sold out very quickly. It's going to do well on pay-per-view, or obviously the pay-per-view price points are much lower

than they are in the United States, and they love boxing in the UK much more so than it's loved in the United States. So it'll do good business over there, and that's one of the things that Joshua actually said during the press conference yesterday. I thought it was odd that he said he doesn't consider Dillian White a rival. I mean, if there's anyone that's his rival, you would think it's Dillian White in the UK for sure. of course, Tyson Fury now as well. But he did say that.

But then he also said in that basically that same span of a couple of sentences that this fight makes perfect business sense, and that's why it's happening. And he's absolutely right about that. So you can't fall. I mean, it's not like he's fighting a guy who had, he has the proverbial punters chance

because Dillion White's left hook is, you know, is lethal. But he'll, but if I had, you know, if I were betting my own money on it, I would bet on Anthony Joshua to knock out

to Liam White. What a two-month stretch, though, for Derek James coming up, huh? Like, you've got Errol Spence in the biggest fight in years. You've got Anthony Joshua in a huge fight. You've got Jermel Charlo taking on Canelo Alvarez. Throw in Frank Martin,

throw in Ryan Garcia, trying to work his way back. Imagine, imagine saying throwing in those two. I know. Pretty goddamn good fighters just be throwing in, you know? Yes. Like if Derek James winds up going three and oh, or even two and one, even two and one, like he's trainer of the year. Like just hand in your ballot, whatever. He's the guy. I mean, what a, what an incredible stretch for Derek James. He's going to get a lot of recognition and I'm sure a lot of money for being part of these three fights. Let's transition to something we saw last weekend in Atlantic City, your backyard there. You've got Boots Ennis, the interim title holder for the IBF at 147 pounds. He has a brilliant performance. Stops Roman Via, 10th round stoppage, just, you know, start to finish.

That was really just excellence from Boots Ennis, who continues to validate the belief that he is, you know, the next guy in the 147 pound division. Once the stuff is settled between Terrence Crawford and Errol Spence, Boots is going to be there to inherit that throne. Did you see anything new or anything interesting for Boots Ennis in his win this past weekend? Well, it was a dominant performance, obviously, Chris, as you said, he battered Roy Mon Villa from basically beginning. You know, he took his time a little bit, the first couple of rounds. But then he really started to pick him apart.

He broke his nose in the second round. He was back to being Boots Ennis after a performance against Karan Chakazian, which kind of turned off the public a little bit. It wasn't really Jeron Ennis's fault all that much because Chakazian really came to make it 12 rounds. And he did. I mean, he wasn't in there to win the fight. He was in there to survive for the most part. And he did. I mean, he took Geron Ennis 12 rounds for the first time in Geron Ennis's career. So that in some way was a win for an unknown Ukrainian underdog who came over here and was being, you know, made fun of and everything going into the fight for his first name and for his track record and everything.

So he showed well in that. And Ennis really expressed a lot of respect for Chakazian for being able to last because he's such a big puncher and he's so diverse and he's so very. I mean, he's the whole package, obviously. But Geron Ennis needed to fight someone like Ramon Villa going into this fight coming off that performance because he needed to get back to being Boots Ennis, right, to really electrifying the crowd, knocking a guy out. The unfortunate thing for Ennis, Chris, is that he's been in this same holding pattern for two plus years now. He's fighting comparable levels of opponents through no fault of his own because he has repeatedly said and done everything he could to get into the position to fight Errol Spence

or Terrence Crawford, the two elite fighters in the division. Now, logic would dictate that neither of those guys is going to fight him. They're obviously contractually obligated to fight each other twice now. So that would take them through the beginning of next year. And then they're going to take some time off after what we can only assume we're going to be two dog fights. Ennis said after his fight the other night, well, I hope I'll be there ringside watching and may the best man win. I think it's a 50-50 fight, but I hope that it's one-sided and that there's no need for a rematch and the loser won't want to rematch because then I would want to fight the winner. That's completely understandable from Ennis's standpoint to look

at it that way. But even if that happened, I would not expect the winner to fight him because there's so much risk involved. It's not nearly as big of a fight as Spence Crawford. And particularly if it's Spence wins the fight, he's going to move up to 150. 54 pounds, whether he fights Crawford once or twice, because he's a big kid. I mean, he's 5'10. He has admitted to blowing up and weight between his fights and everything. He's a little better about it now, but he still gains a lot of weight between fights. And he's 33 years old now. Crawford is a smaller guy, probably could continue to make 147, but is it going to be worthwhile for him? Let's just say he beats Spence twice. No one could

could criticize Terrence Crawford at that point, right? He's done everything that was asked of him now. He cleaned out the welterweight division. He has all the titles. While physically he might not need to move up to 154, he might want to go pursue another title there. And then unless someone really makes it worth his while, because Crawford's a dog, and he's got a lot of pride, and he's not going to like people saying that he's avoiding Ennis or whatever, but is it going to be worthwhile from a financial standpoint for him to stick around if he wins? And the same principle applies to Spence. I think both guys will whoever wins, whether they fight once or twice, will then move up to 154. And then unfortunately for Ennis, what is he really left to do at 147, right? Chris, because he's in, again, this holding pattern.

Lippinets is still the best guy that he's beaten. And that was two years ago, right? I mean, and he dominated Lippinets. He looked brilliant in doing it. But Lippinets is a former world champion. You know, Raymond Via was coming off a very good win against Rashidi Ellis, who was undefeated when he knocked them down, twice in the 12th round, beat him by majority decision. Very good win for V. A tough guy, probably very competitive with most welterweights, except the top three in a division, probably top four in a division. But as it relates to Ennis, Chris, his contemporaries and the guys that he would fight if he doesn't get the opportunity to fight Spencer Crawford, well, one of them might retire. So, you know, Virgil Ortiz might be a limit. At the very least,

he's going to move up and wait, I would think, right? And he might never fight again. So that potential huge fight for Geron Ennis against a guy in his age range is now not there anymore. Stanionis has a secondary title and is undefeated and I think people will push to see that fight next, whether it happens or not, who knows. But that's the next fight for him. But that's not a huge fight. And it's certainly not a fight that if John Ennis wins, people are going to say, okay, he's the king of the welterweight division.

Isn't it, I mean, that's the logical fight, right? Stanionis against Boots. Stanionis has been affiliated with BBC for a number of years now. Only was going to fight on DeZone because of the Perspid situation with Ortiz. And no, it's not a mega fight. It's not a paper view, certainly. But that's a really good Showtime fight if they can make it on the network. Stanionis is still undefeated, good puncher, a lot of attributes.

And if you're Ennis, my look at a viewpoint Ennis is, like, You've got to convince these sanctioned bodies like the WBA. Like you put the WBA with the secondary title that Stany Onus has and the secondary title that Boots Ennis has. Like I'd love to see both those titles on the line in a fight between Stanionis and Ennis. And I know that they're not real titles right now, but to your point, more likely than not,

you're going to see at least Spence and probably Crop or two move up and wait after their series of fights is done. So at some point, whether it's after the first fight between those two guys or potential second fight, those secondary titles are going to become real titles. So if you're Ennis, maybe you're thinking like, all right, I have two secondary titles now, but six months from now, I might have a third. And then you can start talking about Alexis Rocha or wherever he's going to fight. Cody Crowley is out there in that mix for a WBO belt.

I think it's just about making the best fights possible for you over the next year. I mean, it's not like Ennis is any kind of rush. I thought one of the most surprising things from that fight week, Keith, was Ennis weighing like 145 again, like just easily making this 145-pound weight limit. It feels like he's got a long time at 147 ahead of him. So he can just collect titles, wait some of these guys out, maybe wait for some of the guys at 140 to move up and be in some high-profile fights. That is young enough to be patient. I think he's got to, I think patience could pay off for him down the line.

Chris, he actually said after the fight during the post-fight press conference, exact words were, I can make this weight for as long as I want, which is an interesting thing for a growing 26-year-old guy who's 5'10 to say, but he was 145.5 pounds on the scale Friday, same exact amount that he weighed for the Chikazean fight. So he's clearly not having the difficulties that Virgil Ortiz or a lot of these other guys are having, making 147. So it's great that from that standpoint, he would remain in the well-to-weight division. But when you look at the fights that are available to him, for what? Let's just say he beats Stanionis, and let's say that Virgil Ortiz is not a potential opponent for him anymore. Well, who is he

fighting in the 147? All right, he can make it, which is great, but who's he fighting? Because eventually Geron Ennis is, I don't know, it's not fair to take it out on him because he wants the fights, but he's 26, so he's in the heart of his physical prime now or just enter what people might consider his physical prime. He's obviously a young, relatively young guy. He just turned 26. But over these next couple of years, with Ortiz removed from the mix, for the most part, who's the big fight? Who, I don't know who it is. I mean, it's not Alexis, no offense. I mean, it's not Alexis Rocha or any of these other. I mean, Geron and his beats all. The, you know, the Stanyonas fight is a good fight, and I would want to see it. And hopefully it is what happens next.

I don't know necessarily that that will be the case because let's just say, They order St. BBA orders Stanyonus to fight someone else. Maybe the money's not available to Stan Yonis that he would want to fight Geron Ennis. So who knows, really? Hopefully that's next because that's the most intriguing, intriguing, available fight for Ennis. If it's not next, I don't know who he fights and, you know, people are interested in watching him because he's a brilliant talent and he's so, he's a nice kid too.

I mean, on top of everything else. He's a very respectful person and very, you know, look what he did with VIA the other night. I mean, he beat the crap out of him and then, you know, went over and made sure that he was okay and was very respectful toward his team and everything. So he's a good kid, you know, obviously raised the right way and very likable. But I don't know how do you make him that next level star without him fighting Crawford or Spence? I don't know the answer to that, and it's not going to be easy. I think it's, yeah, I think it's definitely going to be difficult.

I just think for boots, it's about collecting as many of these belts you can, even there's secondary belts, like trying to get a unification fight. Because I think Stanionis, the WBA says, he's get a voluntary. He can do something else in his next fight. And hopefully there's enough money on the table

to make a fight between boots and Stanionis. And then you can have two belts there, and then we'll see what happens with Spence and Crawford. I just think it's got to be about collecting as many titles as you can, getting in as many significant fights, can. And then see where the chips fall in 2024. See if there's anybody that's a big name at 140, it's going to move up to 147. I know Josh Taylor's probably going to be there. That's obviously

complicated with Taylor's promotional affiliation, but maybe that's a fight that is somewhat interesting for Ennis. Nothing pay-per-view-worthy for sure. But I think for Ennis, you just start taking good fights and hope the great fights come to you a little bit further down the line. You mentioned Ortiz. What's your take on that situation? I talked about this last week, and look, I talked to Rick Maragi and the manager of Virgil Ortiz, who said that Virgil is going to move up to 154. You know, there's a tentative plan at least to bring him back sometime in November. You know, he's going to take like 30 or 60 days off per medical advice to really rest his body and try to heal his body.

But this is now, what, the third time he's been forced out of a fight because of either the rabdo illness or something connected to it, complications from it. I mean, I'm not a doctor, so I'm not going to play one, but, you know, the solution right now from Ortiz's camp seems to be move up and wait. And I'm not so sure that's the, I'm sure sure that's going to be the solution to all this. What's your take on how everything has unfolded with Virgil Ortiz? It's a very, very tricky situation, Chris, in that I don't want to see him fight in November. How about you take like a year off? How about that? He's a young kid.

he's 25 years old. When I spoke to Boots Ennis, and this was all unfolding in real time on Thursday, when I spoke to him about it at the press conference, he said, well, it seemed to me a little bit like he was rushing to, you know, because they wanted to make the Stanyonis fight. Like when it got canceled in, I believe it was March. He said it looked like, you know, he kind of rushed back into camp and everything. That may be the case. I don't know. And again, I want to be very careful, Chris. I don't know the medical implications here.

I'm not trying to pretend that I know anything about. what's going on with Virgil Ortiz's body like a doctor. I mean, according to Rick, Marigian, according to Rick, he did not, he tested negative for Rabdo. So that was the illness that kept him out for the last couple of fights. There was a negative test for that. That's at least what his manager is saying on the record.

So the issue is there are complications from it that he did, to your point, maybe come back a little bit too quickly and was still dealing with the side effects of having it the first time around back in March. Right. There's something wrong with him, whether it's Rabdo, whatever, however you pronounce it, whether it's that or something else. There's clearly, his body is not reacting well to putting all this stress on it,

whether it's to make 147 or 154. And I think from Virgil Ortiz's perspective, I realize, you know, his whole life he's been building toward becoming a boxing superstar and he's in position to make that happen. Very easy from the outside looking in to say, oh, look, why don't you just retire and go find something else to do with your life because it seems like the smarter thing to do. that's very easy for someone else to say. If he's licensed to fight, and I really hope that they put him through

the most extreme testing imaginable to license him to fight, the Texas Commission, other commissions, I really hope they make those things necessary for him to get licensed. But you just have to wonder in the back of your mind, Chris, whether the best thing for Virgil Ortiz to do is to find something else to do with his life

because you'd hate for this kid to continue putting himself in this position and then does some irreversible damage to his body. And also from the financial perspective of the people funding his career, in this case, Golden Boy Promotions into Zone, how many times are you going to build events around a guy who's a budding star and can sell tickets and fights in a very entertaining way, knocked out every opponent that he's ever fought? But how many times are you going to put money toward promoting and building an event toward him and then have him not physically be able to go through with the fight because it's now

happened how many times three and then the the mckinson fight was obviously rescheduled and he did fight him last year i understand that um but now this is twice with the stanionis fight or three times altogether the first time with stanyonis having an appendectomy but uh so it's happened twice and you have to look at it from a financial standpoint as well because you're putting all this time effort and money into promoting these events and then they're not happening and you're left in a situation like you were there to call on Saturday night where you have to just, you know, adjust on the fly and have, while Floyd Schofield is a really fascinating young talent,

you're not building entire events around him at this point. So you have to look at it from a financial standpoint as well. And it's going to be interesting to see how they move forward. I think the problem that Virgil Ortiz is going to be dealing with and by extension, Golden Boy and his own is that in two of these three fights that he's had called off, it was literally during the fight week that it all fell apart. And it was because his body failed him as he was going through the usual motions you go through to cut weight.

You know, he weighed, I was told, 156 on Tuesday, which seems like a lot, but is not all, that unusual, I guess, for fighters to cut seven, eight pounds during their fight week. At least I was told that was kind of what Virgil usually does during a fight week. But for whatever reason, what he was able to do two years ago is not what he's able to do now. So to your point, can you schedule a Virgil Ortiz fight, even at 154 in November, December, knowing that, you know, even if he says two weeks early, like he did, he was on this show, you know, a couple of weeks before the fight saying, I'm 100%. I feel all the way back. You're not going to know until you get to like Tuesday or Wednesday. I mean, this happened Wednesday night, you know, of Virgil's fight week. And it wasn't just, I can't make the weight.

He collapsed and couldn't breathe. Like, he had to go to the hospital because of that. It's like, this isn't just like, oh, crap, man, I'm way over. I'm not going to do it. I can't take any more out of my body. collapsed and it had to go to a hospital because of it. Like that's, I mean, I'm kind of with you there on don't take months off. Take a year off. You're 25 years old. Like if you want to get back into it, you know, eight months a year from now, boxing is going to be there.

You know, your promoter's going to be there. Your network's going to be there. You're a rising star. But, you know, even if he takes the 30 days off, they're talking about 60 days off. They're talking about, you know, you. It just feels like a risk to do that. And look, I mean, I even know if I move to 154 right now is good for Virgil. I mean, I know the names are up there or will be up there, but, you know, he's not a massive 147.

Like, you know, it's, it's not like he's just going to fill out into that weight class right away. I mean, I think that's a risk in it up itself. But, yeah, I mean, I believe the second Stanionis fight cancellation or postponement after the appendectomy for Stanionis. That was a little earlier than a couple of weeks. But the McKinson fight was that fight weeks. I remember talking about Rocha and would he move up and fight McKinson, that kind of stuff on Blair Cobbs. And this one was Thursday morning when they announced it.

I don't know how you can build events around him. It's just, it's tricky. I mean, he just has to listen to only medical advice on this subject. You know, not. You know, Chris, sorry to interrupt you, but I mean, somebody somebody's telling them take 30 days off that's it it was my understanding it was the medical advice to Virgil Ortiz that week to take 30 to 60 days off before you start training for anything else like just take 30 to 60 days off off that was and I guess he didn't do that after the

first diagnosis he got back into the gym after a few weeks so they want longer I don't know Oh, you mean they told him 30 to 60 days after the second postponement of the Stany on his fight? No, this was this was this, this was this, this was this, this was this, this was this was past week. Oh, okay. After he collapsed was in the hospital and they said you can't fight. The advice was take 30 to 60 days off just doing nothing before you even think about doing anything boxing training. I guess after I don't know what the advice was after the second postponement, but he didn't take much time off in between the postponement and when he got back into the gym. So the advice now is to like, you know, basically take the summer off.

So, you know, and get back into it then. I don't know. I don't know what is going to happen with him moving forward. But, you know, there's a lot to consider, I think, with Virgil Ortiz. All right, a couple things I want to hit on before I let you go. This weekend will be the debut of Andy Cruz, who Eddie Hearn claims is the greatest amateur prospect and the history of amateur prospects. He is very excited about Andy Cruz. Former Olympic gold medalist has a bunch of wins over Keith.

Sean Davis. They're trying to fast-track him. He's in a 10-round fight right away against Juan Carlos Burgos, who has fought some names in boxing, not anywhere near the prime of his career by any stretch. But the immediate thought I have, Keith, is, are we looking at another Lomachenko? Right? Lomachenko years ago was, you know, multi-time Olympic gold medalist, the best amateur prospect, maybe ever, came in, fast-tracked, you know, was in a world title fight, a few fights do you think Andy Cruz is on that same track? Do you look at him that way? To people in boxing look at him that way?

Because certainly the folks at Match Room look at him that way. Well, he's being matched that way, that's for sure. But that's a pretty ambitious goal there to become the next facility, Lomachenko. And he's fighting a better opponent in his debut. Now, Burgos has lost, I think, six or seven times. I think seven times now. And he lost to Kishon David. he lost a pretty lopsided decision to Kishon Davis back in December.

But he's a guy that doesn't get knocked out. He's a veteran fighter who's fought for world titles and everything. So it's really impressive that that's who he's fighting in his professional debut and speaks to, as you said, how high of an opinion the people that matchroom have of him. But again, Lomachenko is an elite, elite level fighter. Is he going to be that good? I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't bet on that.

That doesn't mean he's not going to have a very good fighter. career and won't become a world champion, but that's, that's an extremely high standard. You know, Lomachenko fought for a world title, as we well know, in his second fight. And, you know, I think he got hit below the belt 87 times by, against Orlando Salito, who was very dirty throughout that fight. But think about that. I mean, he fought Orlando Salito, who had a lot of losses at that point of his career, but had really fought everybody and had some good wins and everything.

and Lomachenko fought him in his second professional fight. I mean, that's ambitious matchmaking at its finest for sure. So let's see how Andy Cruz does on Saturday night. If he goes in there and, you know, let's just say he knocks out Juan Carlos Burgos, that that's a hell of a statement to make in your pro debut. But even if he, you know, if he shuts him out, that's also an impressive statement to make in his first professional fight. Yeah, I was in the gym with Cruz a little bit a few weeks ago.

He's very talented. There is a lot of amateur to his style, though, which I guess to be expected. He doesn't sit down on punches yet. It's a lot of that kind of point system offense. And he's working with, you know, we've mentioned Boots Ennis, working with Bozianis, the father of Boots, the trainers. And I think that's going to be good for him. I love that he's not kind of going the traditional, I'm going to train in South Florida with, you know, whoever trains a lot of Cuban fighters. He's going to Philadelphia and training in that gym.

and he's going to learn a very different style. And they're hard on him, Keith, up there. Like, they're tough. Like, his nickname in that gym is bullshit. That's his nickname. And they give him that because, like, Bozzie will say, like, go do this. And then he'll keep an eye on Cruz out of the corner of his eye and see him kind of like, you know, half-assing it or doing half what he's doing.

And it'll look over and go, bullshit. And, like, Cruz will look up, be like, yeah, you're talking to me. So his nickname in the gym is bullsie. shit. So he's a, he's having, it's a good experience for him being there. And look, he's sparring with boots, which is phenomenal. That's great experience right there. And there's some other good fighters in that Philadelphia gym as well. I'm with you. I think it's, it's ambitious to think he's going to be challenging for a title three, four fights in. For starters, who's giving him a title shot? Like, that's not going to be on the table. I like these needling Kishon already, that that

already seems to be kind of a thing like, will they meet in the pro ranks? But I think it'll be 10, 12 fights before we see Andy Cruz in with a world title holder. And that's probably for the best because it is going to take him some time to learn to be a heavy hitter. To learn to be a power punch. I'm not sure if he ever really gets there. But he's still very, there's still a lot of amateur in his style. That's going to be something that takes Ennis and his team some time to break. He'll probably, you know, he might stop Burgos because he'll just overwhelm him.

and maybe it's a corner stoppage or, you know, a referee stoppage. And that would be kind of a feather in his cap. He can, you know, say afterwards, like, I stopped the guy. Kishon couldn't. So, you know, there's that. But I would expect you're going to see more of Andy Cruz, like, super active. Like he'll fight, you know, in July. Maybe he's back again in September.

Maybe he gets one more before the end of the year. You keep on that three, four fight track early on, rather than the Lomachenko route where it's, like, Salito, you know, at number two. And Gary Russell, Jr., right after. that. I don't see, I don't see anybody ever doing that again, but I certainly don't see Andy Cruz being, being on that level. It'll probably be, I think the earliest would be like 10 fights before we see him in a world title fight. You know, Chris, it's interesting, too. It doesn't always quite work out for these decorated amateurs, no matter how much people think of them.

Look what happened to Robesie Ramirez. Robesuze Ramirez lost his pro debut. A two-time Olympic gold medalist came to the United States. And it seems like Andy Cruz has taken a very different path here by going to train in Boise's Gym in Philadelphia, but Robesia Ramirez said, I came here, I half-ass training, I thought, you know, everything was going to become easy to me, and he lost his pro debut. He went on to avenge that loss and is now a world champion and is really showing his capabilities as a professional, but it took him a while. And losing your pro debut is a huge setback when there's a lot of money and invested in you and a lot of hype surrounding you and everything. It took him a while to overcome that. So I'm not saying Andy

Cruz is going to lose to Burgos, but you never know what could happen. I mean, when you're fighting with smaller gloves and no headgear and everything, it's a whole different deal. So it'll be interesting to see him fight Saturday night. Yeah, 10-round fight against a pro that's been 10 rounds many times in his career. You're right. Anything can happen in a fight like that, especially you mentioned kind of Ramirez sort of half-assing his initial training. Like, I go back to kind of the bullshit nickname.

Like, there are times that Andy Cruz is not doing everything he's supposed to do. Now, eventually he gets there because it's a very low-tolerance gym. there in Philadelphia. But yeah, it could be interesting in his first fight. I'm excited to see him because whenever you see a guy that was this good in the amateurs, you're dying to see if they can make it in the pros. And I'd love like two, three years from now, whether it's at 135 or 140, you see Kishan and Cruz kind of go at it again.

A lot of good young 135s that are going to be coming up in the next couple of years that could make their mark. Keith, Ideck. Appreciate your time, my friend. Follow Keith over at boxing scene.com. He does great coverage over there. follow him on Twitter at IDEC boxing as well. Keith, I will see you, I'm sure, very soon.

Yes, my pleasure, Chris. See you soon. And when we come back, my conversation with Alicia Baumgartner. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes

of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream,

this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84's big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that. sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years

for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ardicea Baumgartner is the undisputed 130 pound champion on Saturday. She will defend her titles and attempt to

avenge the only loss on her resume when she takes on Christina Linidartu. That's a rematch that you. you can watch on DeZone. Alicia, usually at the start of an interview, I ask, you know, kind of a basic small talk question, asks someone how they're doing. Last time I did that with you, this was the answer that I got. It was great.

You know, I dug deep. Listen, I started my period today, so that should tell you. Yeah. That should tell you that us women can do it all. So, yes, sir. So you and I have never talked about this after the fact, but, when exactly did you know you were going to answer that question that way? You know, it was just a sphere of the moment thing.

I'm like, this is real, this is raw. And it was a perfect question to ask. That quickly went viral. I mean, that was every, what kind of reaction did you get from that? You know, all the women were like, yeah, women empowerment, say what it is. And it was just, it was a moment. It was definitely a moment to remember and go back and laugh about it. You do have a knack I've noticed for going viral, whether it's that clip, or you were in New York just a couple of weeks ago for the Edgar Berlanga fight.

And one of the clips I saw on social media over and over again was when the camera cut to you to do the crowd shot, you flex to the camera. Then that video was everywhere. So you've got a skill here, Lisa. You've got a talent. Yeah, you know, when the camera's on me, I don't know what's going to happen. But I don't know if the fighter is going to come out. Alicia is going to come out. But, you know, we're getting closer to the fight.

And so I'm more than excited. It kind of speaks, too, to how your profile has gone up over the last couple of years. I mean, it was just less than two years ago. You were still something of an unknown. Then you beat Terry Harper. You beat Michaela Mayer. You unify all the belts. Now you're headlining a major event.

I see you being recognized at Tigers games. I see you on with Pat McAfee. Is this kind of everything that you were hoping for a couple of years ago? Yeah, absolutely. I know there was a time and a place for it. I know there was a time where you had to be patient. And now we are at the top of my career and just really pushing the sport of boxing and letting people know who Alicia is.

People want to know who I am inside and outside the ring. And so we're doing that now, which I'm excited about. What would you say the biggest moments so far for you as Ben? Because I look at three, right? There's the knockout win over Harper, which really put you on the map in your way class. There was the win over Michaela Mayer, which, you know, settled for now a blood feud between you two. And then there was the undisputed championship fight. Which of those three would you look at as being the biggest moment so far?

You know, they were all big moments, but, you know, they all have their special place in my heart. But I would just say the fight with mayor and I, you know, we were in London. then it was a all women's card. We made history that night. And I became unified. You know, it was, it was bigger than me that night. And it was, it was a time to remember, a time to reflect. And again, we're making history.

I'm making history. I am a part of history. And so it only gets better from here. So it was just a few months ago that you unified all the titles in the 130 pound division. And from there, you certainly have options. You'd accomplished everything at 130. You could have moved up. to 135, started to campaign there.

You elected to stay and take this rematch with Linidartu. What went into that decision to stay at 130? You know, I dominate. I dominate at 130. I can make the weight easy. And, you know, if it's anything, if you're good at something, you know, keep elevating in that. And I'm able to do that. We wanted Leonardo to, you know, mayor couldn't have her.

You know, my team made it happen. And now here we are. We handpicked this girl. This is the perfect girl for a homecoming fight, and I'm ready come this Saturday. There had to have been a little bit of that in it, right? Mayor couldn't have her, so I'm going to take her out. Yeah, yeah. It was, there was, you know, a lot of people may think what's going on here.

But, you know, again, everything happens for a reason, and this is the girl that we wanted, and here we are. She did hand you a loss about five years ago. How different are you as a fighter now than you were back then? Listen, I've been telling people I'm a brand new person. I shudded that old skin. I don't even know who that old girl is anymore because I've developed. I've grown. I've been able to be real with myself and get a better team and just a better environment altogether.

I'm a completely different fighter. And I love the growth on me. And I just love how I progressed. And so to step in the ring again, five, six years later, different animal, undisputed. No question. We've seen when fighters take a loss, sometimes that loss sticks with them. I mean, Claressa lost to Savannah as an amateur and that bothered her for a long period of time. The loss of Linodartu, how much has that bothered you over the years?

How much has that been on your mind that I want to get even? You know, it never bothered me. It was more of, okay, I got a loss on my record. It was more of I have a loss on my record. It's not so much I got a loss. You know, everybody wants to go undefeated. But, you know, I was like, you know what? oh well, I'm still going to be a world champion.

And now here I am as the undisputed champion with a loss on the record. Just to say, I persevered through a loss. It doesn't, it didn't define my career. And now I'm able to showcase what that looks like and that defeat is okay. What kind of fighter do you think she is now? You know, she's hungry, you know, she has someone to fight for now. She has a child. She's coming back into the sport.

She was a world champion. she, you know, wants to continue in the sport and make something of herself and continue doing that. So, you know, I give her all the props to come back after having a child, having a layoff, and wanting to, again, prove why she's the fighter that she is. You know, the subject of hometown fights has come up a lot in the last couple of months. We saw Regis Progris say it was tough for him to main event in New Orleans because of all the obligations. We saw Jared Anderson just recently in Toledo, you know, kind of, to talk about everything that went into fighting in his hometown. You fighting in your hometown,

main eventing. How has it been? Has it been a different experience over the course of this week? Not at all. It's been everyday life for me. This is what I do every day. I can go to the gym, I work out. You know, there's few camera people there. No big deal. I go back home. There's no pressure. You know, I've done this plenty of times. And again, throughout my career, I'm prepared for this moment. And so when it comes to this homecoming fight Saturday, it's just going to be. be the topping of the cake that I've been waiting for. And again, I'm going to show why everyone should be tuned in July 15th. This is a defense of all four of your titles.

Do you feel like you still have more to accomplish at 130 pounds? I do. Why not? I think every performance gets better. We want knockouts. If I can continue my knockout streak, as I did with Terry Harper with this fight come Saturday, it only builds the sport. It builds my profile.

it says, hey, Alicia Baumgardner is the full package. Let's invest. Let's look into this girl and really into boxing and appreciating the sport as what it is. How much of your decision kind of was based on the fact that 135 is just kind of tied up? All those titles like Katie's fighting Chantel. Maybe she fights Chantel again. Maybe she fights Amanda Serrano. There's not a clear pathway for you to get a belt at 135.

How much was that part of your thought process the last few months? You know, it's still an opportunity to move up to 1.35. As I mentioned, I would do it. But we just have to see right now. I'm the undisputed champion at 1.30. I'm defending my titles. I'm doing what I love. And that's the best part of it.

So whatever happens, happens. But I'm here for the challenge and I'm ready to fight whoever. Yeah, I was watching you on with Pat McAfee last week. And one thing they asked you was about mixed martial arts, UFC in particular. And we have seen women, most notably, Cleressa Shields, cross over and do both. Is that in your mind, like as a realistic possibility, like during the prime of your career,

that we could see you try your hand? You know, you're a former wrestler. You know, you've got that background. Could we see you in a cage at some point in the next couple of years? I said, why not? You know, I'm at the prime of my career. I'm an athlete at heart. I've been in sports since a five-year-old,

and I just love a challenge. If I can get in the cage, and, you know, use my wrestling background through its advantage. Why not? I would love to do it. Do you feel confident you'd have the same level of success? I mean, we've seen Claressa struggle a little bit over there. She obviously doesn't have the background that you have,

but are you confident that you could succeed at that combat sport? Absolutely. When I put something to my mind and I know that I can achieve it, I can do it. And I love it. You know, it'd be different if I didn't wrestle, but I know what mixed martial arts look like and I know what boxing looks like so it goes hand in hand

and it's nothing to learn a few new things and put it all together before I let you go you know I love spice and you and Michaela still have a lot of spice whenever you're interacting on social media whenever you see each other there's always something going on there

it's one of the great rivalries in all of boxing I think she just announced she's going to 140 Does that, in your mind, kill the possibility of a second fight between you two? Where do you stand on that? You know, that's up to Michaela. She's all over the place. Since the loss, as you can tell, she doesn't know where she wants to be at 30, 35, 40. Listen, I said I would move up at 1.35 to give her the advantage to rematch her.

I don't mind to do that because I know I'll beat her. So however that looks, however it would be, you know, she knows where I'm at. What do you think of how badly she wants that second fight? She wants it bad. She dreams about it every night. I promise to you. I'm on her mind 24-7. If it's not on Twitter, it's on her phone.

It's on her mind. Someone's coming up to her like, hey, you fought Alicia, right? Yeah. Yeah, you got that loss, right? So it's always brewing in her mind constantly. So, of course, she wants the rematch. I want the rematch because it was fun. It was a great build-up.

And again, like you said, the rivalry between us, too, was spicy. and I think that's what boxing needed and I'm off to do it again. You think 10 years from now you two will be like friends. Like sometimes we see that in boxing. Like, you know, a rivalry becomes a friendship. Do you think that's where this could be headed? You know, however life's supposed to go, it would go.

I see us baby doubt the live again, fighting again and laughing about it later. Who knows? But it's a time for women's boxing to, you know, showcase, you know, us get paid properly, showcase to the word. For me, it's for the world to see. It's not just a small window. I want everybody to see this.

I want them to see the talent that's within boxing. Yeah, no question. Great time for women's boxing. Great opportunity, great event with you coming up this weekend in Detroit. Taking on Christina Linadartu in a rematch, that's a fight you can watch on DeZone. Elise, you always appreciate your time and good luck on Saturday. Thank you for having me. That's it for this week's episode.

My thanks to Keith Ideck and Alicia Baumgartner for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast. on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with. Robert Smygel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliver Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but, celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok.