The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - How women’s boxing could someday surpass men’s boxing in popularity

Episode Date: October 21, 2022

Chris is joined by Jamel Herring and Kevin Iole to talk about the latest with Deontay Wilder, the huge weekend in women's boxing coming off the heels of Shields-Marshall and Taylor-Serrano, and should Devin Haney stay at 135 for Loma? #Volume #Herd #ColinCowherdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm going to be in a badden. Kevin Ioli is here. Yahoo Sports. Jamel Herring, the former 130-pound champion ESPN broadcaster. There's a lot of good things I want to talk about in boxing fellows. But I've had one of those days. I'm recording this on Thursday afternoon. And my optimism for Errol Spence Terrence Crawford has never been lower.

My optimism for Tank Davis against Ryan Garcia has never been lower. Like we're just back on that endless hamster wheel of boxing where we get excited about stuff. And then we're back down once again. I hate it. I hate it. I mean, actually, Jamel, let me put this to you first. Like you had, you've been close with Terrence for a number of years. You used to be in his camp.

what do you think of all this? Like this is a fight obviously not going to happen in November. And February, even though that's kind of a penciled in date, still not etched in stone at this point. Are you surprised that we're here right now? No, I mean, like I said, I'm actually close to both Earl and, and Bud and all this. But as a fight fan, I will say that it's definitely disappointing.

It's definitely disappointing because, this fight is one of the fights that it's probably one of the most anticipated fights but it's like it's like one of the most never happening fights ever every time every time we think we're getting closed we get pushed back 10 you know 10 steps backwards so it is frustrating but hopefully like I said there's no guarantee in February but we shall see Kevin you know what's interesting is that like guaranteed money which often holds up big fights is not the issue here Like from what I understand, neither one of these guys is taking a guarantee. There's taking the big percentages of the purse split.

It's something else. There's other ancillary issues that seem to be holding this thing up. Well, one of the things that I have heard and I think is accurate is the fact that essentially doing that, Crawford wants to be able to see what all the expenses are. And that basically will make him Al Haman's partner because he has to see all the numbers. And Al Heyman is not going to send to Bud Crawford, all how he promotes the fight, what he spends to do this at and the other thing. Because, you know, number one, hey, look, if Crawford's pay is dependent upon what they spend,

then he's going to not promote the fight, he's going to spend as little as he can so that he gets as much as he can. So I think it's really a financial issue, but it's the fact that they're both on the come. And I think that's a real issue. The other thing I think is if you look at Crawford's pay history, right, look at he made six million dollars to fight. Sean Porter. Sean was at the end of the line,

certainly was no longer the guy that he was, say, in 2017 or 2018, but make $6 million for that for a fight that sold no tickets, had basically every ticket in Mandalay Bay given away that night. And now you're going to say, you know, I'm fighting Errol Spence for, you know, it's hard to make that jump,

and there's not the kind of money in the fight to pay him what he really would want on a guarantee. Yeah, there's not, which I think is going to lead, to both these guys taking other fights. We know that Keith Thurman is out there as a potential opponent for Errol Spence. I've heard the name David Avanician

floated for Bud Crawford, you know, potentially before the end of the year. I know that Avanese may have something scheduled, but that's a name to keep an eye on for Bud Crawford before the end of the year. That would be disappointing. I'm equally as disappointed at Tank and Ryan, which I think is going to get scuttled

because of broadcast issues. I think there's, I think they're right there, Jamel, on a deal for way, It's above 130, 35 pounds, 136, 137. I think they're right there on money. But, you know, there's no broadcast agreement. And Ryan is tied to the zone.

Girante is tied to Showtime. This feels like one of those things that's going to get derailed because of a broadcaster. And I'm not sure if that makes, I'm not sure which pisses me off more at this point, whether it's Bud and Errol not being able to get past financial issues or Ryan and Tech not being able to overcome broadcast issues. I mean, I will say this. With the arrow and buzz situation, Crawford situation, I'm more, I'm actually more worried about the sanctioned by the actually, you know,

being fed up and actually calling for the mandatory challenges to step up eventually. That's that they should, right, though? Yeah, that's my main concern. You know, the mandatory challenges for the W.O and the IBF eventually step it up and say, hey, you know, we waited long enough. And, you know, and now with our turn in terms of the, on Ryan and Tank, Yes, because I agree with you. I feel like as if we live in an era now, it's not so much of the promoters.

The stopping fights is more of the networks in which fight the network goes on these days. So it's just a lot of the process. Yeah, it's a lot. And, well, sanctioning bodies, first of all, fuck you, WBC with your Keith Thurman, you know, as the mandatory. Like you did one win in like two years. All of a sudden, you make your way into the number one spot

in their rankings. That to me as well. But look, I'd love to see the WBO order Virgil Ortiz against Terrence Crawford. That to me is a marketable fight. And look, if you're Terrence Crawford and you're faced with the possibility of having to fight Virgil Ortiz, a fight you'd be a favorite in, but for considerably less money, maybe that pushes you over kind of the goal line there. I don't know. Right now, as we're recording this, I don't believe either one of those fights happens. I don't believe. You know, Chris, I wrote in my column on

women's boxing on Saturday. I talked about how the women are showing the men how to do it, right? They're taking big fight. They're looking to unify. They're doing everything. And if you look at, like, like look at Leonard Ellaby's comments, anytime anybody on social media talks about tank, you know, they say, why don't you have tank fight X? Leonard always, the first thing he says every time, he's the bigger draw, he's the bigger. He never talks about the fighting aspect of it, right? And I think that that is the problem with boxing. I understand it's a business and I understand the fighters need to, you know, they're risking their lives. They need to make the most money.

But it is also a professional sport. And you don't hear Bill Belichick saying, we're not going to play the Chiefs because there's not enough ticket revenue in it, right? They play the Chiefs because that's the game on the schedule. And so you can get the business done if you really want to get the business done. But I think what you see, you know, what KBC is doing. And hey, I want to say this. I wrote a column a couple of years ago saying Al Heyman should be in the Hall of Fame.

So I am not saying this as a Heyman hater. But I think if you look at his modus operandi, look at he is done with the welterways. Going back to Mayweather and Pachial, he let it play out. They had all those great welterways. So he let Mayweather fight everybody else until he had no choice but to fight Pachial. And now he's done that same thing as Thurman and Crawford, not Crawford, excuse me, Thurman and Spence and Porter, Danny Garcia. They did their thing and fought each other, right?

Now that he, you know, it's coming to the end of that, he's at least open to a fight with Crawford, but I think, you know, he's going to get, you know, if you look at him, I think his criticism deserves to be there. He's not one looking to make a fight until he's exhausted, all internal options. Jamel, the problem is, with boxing right now, is nobody's actually fighting. Like, all these guys are fighting once a year. Like, you can't, you can't build a brand. You can't build a legacy. You can't build towards big paper views. If you're only fighting once a year and those won fights, and we're going to get into Wilder and Caleb Plant, like, These are tuneups that guys are taking.

Like you can't just do your fighting on social media and YouTube. You've got to get in the ring and give people a reason to want to support you. No, no, I get it. I get it. It's very frustrating. And even when I point that out on social media, sometimes, you know, they look at me as like, oh, that's, that's the old way of boxing, which is sad. Because I still believe in, you know, the best fighting the best, obviously. But it seems like you guys pointed out, every time you get on, every time you make a statement for one fighter, you know,

their handler or their team will make a, well, make an argument how this fighters deserve this, this, who's the A side, who's the bigger draw? And over time, you know, it's gotten real old. Like, for the most part, the fans don't really care who's the bigger draw, who brings in the most money. We just want to see the fights. Exactly.

That's it. But like, anytime someone tells you that's the old way of boxing, like point out to them, like, like, this is, I feel like saying this every time, like a boxing power broker talks to me, like, kind of condescending. You don't know how tough it is to make a deal. You don't know the business of boxing. Well, boxing in the last 20 years has steadily declined.

Like, it's not on the upswing, like the NBA, the NFL, all these other major professional sports. Boxing power brokers telling me they know what they're doing is like the captain of the Titanic telling me they know how to navigate. Like it doesn't, it's just, it doesn't make any sequential sense. Like you are operating in a period where things are going down. Like, you know, Roger Goodell can tell me he knows. what he's doing with business.

Adam Silver can tell me he knows what he's doing in business. People in boxing right now, they can't because right now, boxing is not ascending when it should be because every time it's a big fight, the world stops. The world would stop if Spence fought Crawford. The world stopped when Fury fought wilder those two last two times. Like boxing can still draw you in. It just refused to do so on a consistent basis.

All right, that's the end of my opening rant. That was 10 minutes of stuff that was not on our rundown whatsoever. I want to talk, though, about Deonté Wilder this past weekend. Made his return to the ring after a nearly year-long layoff, ended a two-fight losing streak with a first-round knockout of Robert Hellenius. The win was officially a title eliminator for Wilder, which means if Wilder wins one more fight, likely against Andy Ruiz, he could become the mandatory challenger for Tyson Fury's WBC Bell.

Jamel, I'll start with you. One round, less than three minutes, but Wilder looked once again like the Deonté Wilder of old. What was your reaction to his win? Did we learn anything new about Deonté Wilde? No, I'm not. I'm not. I don't think anybody was surprised. I think, I think if anything, we all wanted to see where his mental state was at in terms of everything going on. We knew that he still had the right hand. We all figured that, I mean, especially with him being in with a former respond partner, Smiley's a piece, he's very familiar with that he was going to do what he was going to do. I think it's more of his mental aspect after the big.

You know, how does he, you know, carry himself now? You know, where's his mind? Because people had a lot of doubts after the last two theory fights where his head was at and if he still had it. So I mean, for me, it was still the same while that we got before the types of furry fights. For me, it's more of, you know, where his head space is at now going, moving into the future. And hopefully we'll see more of that with a fight against a guy like Andy Ruiz.

Kevin, I'll tell you, I like that Wilder came in at 214. It never made any sense to me that he was up in the two high two 30s for that last fight. I mean, muscle is heavy. And if you're Wilder, you want to be in his nimble condition. And as quickness. Yeah, like, I liked what I saw from physically. Hellenius was what he was, right? He was a credible opponent because he knocked out Adam Kovnowski twice. He earned that opportunity. But I think we all. saw the writing on the wall. Heleneas had been stopped by Gerald Washington. He'd be stopped by Yohan Duopas.

He's 38 years old. So I don't think I learned too much new, but it was good to see while there still had that kind of hair trigger right hand. And it's good to see him back in the ring. I think he's right that heavyweight boxing is better with him in it. Oh, no doubt. I mean, he's one of the most exciting fighters of my lifetime, right? I mean, there's no doubt about it because people love knockouts.

Remember what was it, the Nike commercials? Chicks love the long ball. Well, boxing fans love the K-O, right? That's what, you know, if you can knock people out, people are going to watch and pay attention to you. The thing that I was impressed about with Wilder, and I wrote this before the fight, was, you know, he took such a beating against Fury. Sometimes the body only has so many punches you can take. And for two fights in a row, he got pummeled, right? He dished out, especially in that third fight.

I mean, that third fight was one of the great heavyweight fights of our time. But, you know, how does he come back from that? I knew, hey, if he's Deonté Wilder, which it turned out he was, he would do what he did to Robert Delaney's. You know, I thought, you know, three or four maybe, I thought it would take him a little bit to get into it. But that's what Wilder does. But I was so impressed with him because, you know, hey, this is a guy on the downside of his career.

He's no longer ascending. He's on the downside. I think he still have some big fights left. And he showed, you know what, to me when I watch it, and I don't know what you guys think, but I thought, hey, this guy is as hard a puncher as there's ever been in boxing. A lot of times we dismiss the current fighters. In baseball, they don't do this. that, right? In football, they don't do that. You look at football and the time, the 40 times gets

quicker all the time and the weightlifting is better and their athletic ability is better, right? But we don't give boxers that same credit. We always say, hey, boxers in the 20s or 30s or 40s were better than the boxers today. And I think we have better athletes fighting today. Their training is better. Their conditioning is better. So why wouldn't, you know, Deonté Wilder, we see him destroying people as a puncher. Why wouldn't you call him the greatest puncher ever? Yeah, he's certainly right up there and he's got a chance to show it maybe in his next fight against Andy Ruiz, which I think is a terrific fight. Two former heavyweight champions. It seems like a pretty easy fight to put together. Both these fighters are aligned with PBC that strikes me if Wilder Heleneas is a pay-per-view,

then Wilder Ruiz is certainly going to be a paper view so you can put it on that platform. Jamel, that to me is the fight where we learned something about Deonté Wilder. What do you think of a wilder Ruiz type of fight? I think it's good. I think it's good for boxing. I mean, we all know that in the history headway division, all you really need is that one comeback win. And like I said, we all love knockout.

So that's all I really took for it. It didn't really matter who Deonté was in and with. As long as he got that, long as he still proved that he had that knockout power, people are still going to obviously still tuning to see what he can do next. And Andrew Reeves is a man that's proven, you know, he's been in eyes before. I mean, he dominated his first fight again Anthony Joshua, so why not make it? But as you'd like you point out, again, this is boxing. I mean, look at the situation between Plant, Benavides, and others such as Charlo,

they're on the same platform, but it's still could be sometimes difficult to make these fights that we want to see. Well, you know what the problem is, Kevin? It's that these guarantees are killing paper views. And I say this with all due respect to fighters like Jamel and fighters that put their lives on the line, but there should not be significant guarantees in pay-per-views. They didn't used to be. Like, fighters should get, you know, 90% of the pay-per-view revenue. They should get almost all of it.

I mean, promoters should get enough money to make it worth their while doing it. Networks, of course, will take a small cut. But fighters should take, you know, the big bulk of the pay-per-view revenue. nowadays, you can't get a paperview done without guaranteeing fighter X, 5 million or fighter Y, 1 million. That's what's stalling all these because if you were just doing straight splits, it would be easy to make Benavides against Platt. It would be easy to make Wilder against Ruiz. They would step in there and take the money. But I think, look, I think these fighters know that there's a pretty good chance that the pay-per-view buys are not going to be significant enough to give them the kind of payday that they're looking for.

Right. And I mean, like, think about it. What does Spence Crawford do? You know, I think five to 600,000, right? That's a fight that talent-wise should be a million and a half, right? Because these two unbelievably great fighters, you know, arguably the two best fighters in the world, at worst, two of the five best fighters in the world, that should be a fight, and they're both undefeated, they're both in their prime. That should be a fight that breaks pay-per-view records, but we know it won't. You know, part of it is the way both guys are personally. Like they, They don't promote and they don't do that type of thing, you know, especially Bud. You know, Bud's a lot more difficult and surly with the media and it's not as available.

You know, Errol is as available to the media, but he certainly is not like a colorful guy that, you know, gets you know, gets you know, there's nothing that gets them other than they're fighting. And in order for a pay-per-view to be a success, you have to draw in other than the hardcore boxing fans. You know that. And when you can't get the hardcore boxing fans because they don't hear about these guys because they don't get themselves out there in the media, I think that's a problem. So, you know, but let me just say, add one thing in here. I, you're talking about Andy Ruiz, and I wrote a call in ripping Andy Ruiz's management before he fought Luis Ortiz and saying that they should have been fighting Wilder then.

I think the next fight for Wilder now, Ortiz is good, but I want to see a Wilder Joshua, and why not that fight next? Eddie Hearn seems open to it at this point. Why not put Wilder versus Joshua next. To me, you know, the two big guys, I think Wilder, excuse me, Joshua has a better resume than Ruiz, you know, they won one in their fights, but Joshua's fought a lot better opposition than Andy. Andy had that one win over, uh, over Anthony, but then you, if you put Joshua and Wilder and say you put it over, uh, well, you don't want to put it in the UK because that would be difficult time wise. I think that's a mess of fight. I would love to see AJ back in the US to try to, I mean, it's been, what, three years now since.

Yeah, put him in the garden again and have them fight. Go back to the garden. The garden might be his own bad luck charm. But you got to like, if you're AJ, wouldn't you want to come back to the U.S. at some point? You can't like end your career with your only fight in the U.S. being knocked out by Andy Ruiz. Like that, that would just, if I was AJ, that would sit with me. That would, like, that would bother me.

Some, but look, if it is Ruiz, we talked about why there's weight being down. I want to see Ruiz. I want to see fat Andy Ruiz like as big as he needs to be going into that fight because Whoa whoa whoa whoa now he was 283 Not that fat not like but like 260

Jamel 260 270 Because I mean you guys have seen this too It feels like skinny Andy Ruiz A little bit too chiny Like skinny Andy Ruiz against Chris Ariola Got caught But his speed is speed in that business is there But I get what you're saying

He might have to put a little bit more on In terms of taking those heavyweight punches but I mean, we don't want to see him. I don't want to see him at 270. I want to see him where he's still athletic and he uses hand speed. It was still entertaining the fight, but I give it to say, I ain't go, Chris.

I really do. Yeah, the hand speed is, hands speed's always going to be there. It's kind of some of the other things as well. The water is really quick too. Yeah. And a fast guy like water hitting you and you're slow because you put on 25 extra pounds.

I think that's bad news. That's a problem. That's a problem for sure. All right, I want to talk a little about women's boxing. The all women's boxing card, headlined by Clarissa Shields' grudge match with Savannah Marshall, was by all accounts a smashing success, selling out the O2 Arena,

drawing an audience of more than $2 million, that according to Sky Sports. This is the second monster women's headline card this year, following up the Katie Taylor, Amanda Serrano show last April at the Guard. And that fight did an audience of $1.5 million on DeZone. women's boxing is growing fast fellas. It really is.

And this might seem crazy, but could we get to a point in the next few years where the biggest and most compelling fights just in totality per year are being put on by women? Jamel, are we getting, is there a chance we could get into that territory? I mean, yeah. I mean, most of them, they won't like it or admit to it.

But for the last couple of years, we've been seeing that, I mean, look, Even look back as far as as far as Sanisa versus Marlin. That was a, that was a hell of a good fight. And it was for three, and it was three minute rounds. So the more women actually fight and strive with it, you know, for these moments, I believe, I believe they're getting them. I mean, even like I said, looking back at that fight, they act for three minute rounds and they got three men in rounds.

And it's actually a very entertaining fight. And like you put mentioned, when you put in, Serrano, Taylor, Clarissa and Savannah, and, at least, at least for the most part, in terms of women, they're making the fights that the fans are asking for and they're not doing a lot of back and forth on social media. Yes, I mean, we've seen Bumgarner and Mayor, they did a lot of social media back and forth, but at the same time, they still got in the ring and fought each other in the end.

Nowadays, you see a lot, especially in the men's lightweight division, you see a lot of these guys just constantly talking, but you don't see no pen on paper. Yeah, Kevin, that's a great point. Women consistently make the big fights, unification fights, the fights that we want to see, whereas on the men's side, we're often left disappointed. And we look at the depth of talent now from the top ranks with Cloresa Shields to the lower weights with Snesa Strata and everything in between. More talents coming. Like this is the beginning.

Look at what it was five years ago, where it is now, five years from now, they're going to be even more talented women in the game. And these women are fighting each other. They're doing it off-paper-view. And oftentimes, they're doing it in an entertaining way. I mean, not every woman is a power punch. And they're filling up arenas, though, too, as well. Yes, that's a big thing, too.

MSG was full. Well, not here, not here. Well, MSG. Taylor Serrano did. I want to answer you guys by saying, are you fucking crazy? It's going to be bigger than men's boxing. No, I won't say it's not.

But that doesn't mean, it doesn't. In terms of, like, popularity is catching up. Because, like I said, over the weekend, you see, let's come. Right, but it's been here. Over the weekend, you've seen a lot of people more excited for the women's card than the two other cards, in my opinion. Well, Jamel, I love the women's card, and I wrote a column after that fight, just praising the card and praising what women are doing.

And I give all of them credit. And I mentioned about 10 women in the thing, Justin McCaskill. I mean, so many of the women fighters, I love the attitude that they have and what they are doing. But to remotely suggest it's ever going to be bigger than men's boxing, no way. And, I mean, that's like saying the WNBA in a couple of years

is going to overtake the NBA, right? It's not happening. No, but Kevin, Kevin, the end, the problem is, My argument with you there, I don't necessarily disagree with you that men's boxing will always have a leg up on women's boxing. But the NBA would never allow the WNBA or give them the opening because the Lakers have to play the Warriors. The Celtics have to play the Knicks. Like these matchups are going to consistently happen in the NBA. If we get more years like we've had this year where there have been a handful of quality men,

men's fights, quality of men's cards, but too often we're left with a side versus D side. And that's not the kind of matchup that will grow the sport. I love, you know what, I love what's going on in boxing now from the standpoint. I've written several times in recent months about a golden age of boxing. We have so many great young fighters on both the men's and the women's side. And we didn't mention Geron Ennis before, but look at all this nonsense that welterweight. And we don't have Geron Ennis and Virgil Ortiz fighting, right? I mean, that's just a crime.

We want to see those guys. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your. podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me.

Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now, I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new

podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or we're at you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here,

unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode, with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. you listen to look back at it on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts big fights and significant fights and it's almost like they have to wait for spenson croffer to get their business done till they get their time on so i love what is going on in boxing but hey let's look

at women's boxing and what is going on and how many promoters are really committed to women's boxing i i would say too matron eddie herne and ludabella who else top rank science anisa and that was their second woman. And they had to call their other woman to see if it was okay if they signed her. Right. Top rank, I think, is the leading promoter in the sport overall. And I think if top rank made a commitment to women, that would be huge. But they have not done that. Golden Boy, you know, blew it, you know, with their, you know, with their women. They're not really doing it. There's not this commitment to women from the promoters. And it has to start there. And I, I love what's going on in women's boxing. And I think it's give Claritia.

the Shields credit. We haven't mentioned her name too much here. But this woman is, look at she's doing, going out there and fighting three divisions, winning undisputed, what, two of them and unified in the third. I mean, it's amazing what she's doing. And she's setting the tone for her peers. We don't see that in boxing, but I think it's a long way away from catching up. Well, I go ahead. Good. Hey, Carol, give what you saying, no, Kevin. But I mean, everything you said was correct in terms of not enough big powerhouses are pushing. you know, the subject here. But at the same time, with that being said,

when these women still put on a, they still make these fights happen, people are still tuning in. And despite the little backing that they may have, they still make a huge, they still have made a huge impact over this weekend. And people are still talking about it. People are looking for a rematch even between Mayam,

Bumgarner, and even others are now, from what I've seen in my end, looking forward to Sneesa's shot of making her making her return. And she almost been out for almost a year, but people still want to see where she's at, how she looks, and what she can do from here moving forward. So I believe at the end of the day, it starts somewhere. And yes, it's not where we would love for it to be,

but you've got to start. You have to start the foundation somewhere, and I believe that women's boxing is heading in the right direction. Well, I agree it's heading in the right direction. My only disagreement is with Chris's contention about surpassing men's boxing. other than that. I would, okay, I pointed out that I don't think it's going to ever eclipse it.

But it will continue to narrow the gap. By the way, with Sanisa Estrada returning November, what, 12th, you can point out that that fight in Las Vegas, most of the tickets being bought ain't getting bought by Genebette fans. That's for sure. He ain't selling tickets. The middleweight champion of the world is not selling tickets. to that fight, or at least one of the middleweight champions of the world.

I just, like, there were three cards last weekend. One was headlined by the undisputed lightweight champion. One was headlined by the former heavyweight champion. And to me, the most interesting fight that weekend was the co-main event of the women's card with Michaela Mayer and Alicia Baumgartner. The second most interesting fight, the second most interesting fight was Cloressa Shields against Savannah Marshall. Like on a weekend where the undisputed lightweight champion was in action. And the former heavyweight champion was in action.

The most compelling fights to me that interested me the most were the two women's fights. I love them. And I sat there. You know what I did on Saturday? This is how much I was into it. I sat down and I watched the women's card. I wrote a recap on Baumgartner, Mayor. I wrote a recap on Shields and Marshall.

I wrote a column on Women's Boxing Shields Marshall after that fight. I wrote a recap on Devin Haney. I wrote a recap on the UFC, which was a women's fight, and then I wrote a recap in a column on Deonté Water. So what was that? Seven stories that I did in a little period of time. So I agree with you that those women's fights were absolutely worthy of it. And I love what the women are doing.

And I think that, A, I think promoters should invest more money in women. And I do think, as we have discussed, that the fact that the women are having success is going to breed future success for the women. But here's one of the thing, Chris, let me throw this at you and see what you guys think. Like, I think Sanisa Estrada's debut for top rank is a big moment for her and for women's boxing, because now a very elite women's boxer is going to join the biggest promotional company in the sport. So why put it on a night when there's a major UFC card, right? That is going to be a significant detriment to them in terms of the ratings.

And I know we don't have a huge crossover, but I think they should have set Seneas' first fight where she had the stage to herself and she was the main event. I think if they did that, that was top rank showing a commitment to women's boxing and to this fighter in particular. And I think that should have happened.

I'll be interested to see what happens next year because however you want to define it, women's boxing closed the gap a little bit with men. Still far behind, but it closed the gap a little bit. As we look ahead to next year, I can see women's boxing closing it a little bit more because we're probably going to get Taylor Serrano 2 at some point.

We're probably going to get Alicia Baumgartner unification, maybe Alicia Baumgartner against Katie Taylor at some point before the end of the year. Maybe we get a rematch between Cloresa Shields and Savannah Marshall, or we see Clarissa Shield become this, Shields become this like British Slayer and stays over in the UK and fights Natasha Jonas or fights Terry Harper and his other 154s that have joined the ranks there. Like these are big cards, Kevin, that we can probably count on. Whereas in men's boxing, I don't know what we can count on next year.

Like, can you name one big fight that you can count on next year besides Furiusik I'm counting on? That's going to happen. Those two want to fight each other. But other than that, I can't think of anything at this point. I'm really disappointed in Fury, right? And why the hell is he fighting Derek Chisora? terrible fight he's already destroyed him twice now we're doing it a third time and and i don't understand what what the nonsense he's been doing is he's retired he's under retired he's putting

deadlines on a jay putting deadlines on usick and now he comes up with this fight which is a weak fight and it's a who cares fight um so the women you know the women are totally opposite that you know what did coloressa shield say after the fight you know ask if she would give marco rematch she says well if the public wants it i'll do it that's the answer That is the answer, and that's what women say all the time. And I think, you know, we're going to have a lot more unification fights. You know, we could have at that, at that flyweight level, we could have, you know, a junior flyweight and a flyweight, you know, undisputed champions then fighting each other, right? I mean, that is a possibility for the second half of next year.

Hey, why not, you know, why not invest in that and put more money? And I think the promoters are the hold up here. I'd be all for running that whole women's boxing card back in Detroit. Like, do that at like Little Sears Arena or the MGM Grand out there, something big, and run that whole card back because you've got Claressa, Alicia, run it all back, everybody gets rich, everybody's interested once again. I'd be on board with something like that. Football season is heating up and now is the perfect time to download FanDuel,

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make the Usik fight. So I give him credit for that. He tried to make that fight. Usik was the one that says I'm done for the rest of the year. The Joshua fight was never really going to happen because super fights are not put together in like three weeks. That like they're going to fight if they do fight. It's going to be in like Abu Dhabi or Jedda for a cajillion dollars at some point in 2023. Like that was obvious. And if it's if he's really determined to fight in December like Kevin, Kevin, you answer this first. Then Jamel, you weigh in.

Like was he supposed to like fight Jean-Jaleigh or like somebody? Like who was he supposed to fight? Like if he's not fighting Dergisor like who would you rather see him in? That makes sense. understanding this is a stay busy fight and he's not going to take on joe joyce before he's going to face alexander usick well when when you were setting out that question you know you you you know talked about what i think the problem with blocking is what what you know you said the super fight was um joshua and fury and then usick was a good fight usick is the freaking you know

unified champion and that's not the big fight and i think that you know in the nflbl nba Major League Baseball, NHL, the team sports, winning counts and being successful counts and people want to see the teams that win. And in boxing, it's so much different than that. Hey, yes, you have to win, but you have to have the personality and you have to have that. Again, I say this, hey, look, they were close. Tyson's the one manipulating all this stuff, right? All I think that Usik was saying is, I don't want to fight this year, but he could have fought him in January February, right, could, you know, give him a little bit of a break. But Tyson was being a bully. Usick had just had a big fight with Joshua, give him a little time off, and then he'll fight him.

Or he puts the deadline, hey, what did Eddie Hearn and Joshua say? They were willing to agree to the terms and get the fight. But there's just a little new one to get it done, and then they couldn't do it. I just think Tyson is to blame, and I think his, I'm not sure what he was doing with all this craziness. You know, he's retired, then he's coming back, then he's retired again, and all this. But I think the fight to make was Usik, and you didn't know. have to fight December 3rd. I mean, Kevin, you were spot on with that.

I'm honestly, I was just tired with the back and fall between Tyson and his decision for the last couple of months on what he was going to do. I mean, most of us are already assumed that he wasn't going to be tired, but when he did come back saying that he wanted to fight Anthony Joshua, I thought it would make sense, especially for British boxing. Obviously, it would also make better sense to fight a guy who's also, you know, unified world champion to where they could have an undisputed world champion. But right now, yeah, nobody wants to see the Chisora fight. Absolutely not. I don't know. Maybe, again, like Chris said earlier, we just can't predict what's going to happen in the New Year

because every time we get the talk, so we get the high hopes of having a big fight, we always get throwing something that we totally didn't ask for at all. I'll tell you what, though, Jamel, like Fury Chesora will sell out O2 Arena or something like that. It will. Like, because Chisora will, like, throw a table at them and, like, they'll be interested in it, like, before the fight. And, like, people will be talked into Chisora having half a chance.

And it'll do a decent pay-per-view by. They'll sell it an arena. And it's, I just think it's fine for a fight that Fury just wants to keep active in doing. And Kevin, I think he's going to fight Ussick, like, before April. Probably, probably do it outdoors anyway, if you can do a big crowd. So you want to push it as, you know, deeper into the spring as you can. I just, I, you know, the consternation over this Chesora fight is a little bit bizarre to me. It's like they're the boxing purists out there that want to see like, you know,

what's he going to do, fight Jared Anderson, stay busy fight? Like what? He's just trying to stay active in the ring. And I have no problem with him fighting Alexander Usik. All right. One more thing for you guys. We mentioned Devin Haney, beats George Cambosus, to Devin's enormous credit, goes to Australia twice, wins the undisputed championship, makes a whole bunch of money.

And now he's free to do effectively whatever he wants, whether it is a facility, or a move to 140 pounds. Demal, I want to ask you this, what's the weigh-in for Haney against Camposus? Haney's not 135 pounds. Like, Haney was bone-dry at that way in. And he's being, now he's going to get, you know, nudged in the direction of Lomachenko.

I know that's a fight Haney has wanted for a number of years. But what would you do? Give him, like, you saw Haney in the ring. You saw him the day. before. Yes, he's still a young guy, just 23 years old, but I don't know. Like Teofi Malopez, it's always stuck with me. One thing Teufi Malopez said in the aftermath of the loss to Cambosis was he should have dropped the belts and moved up to 140 before then. Now, that may have been Monday morning quarterbacking because he lost, but if you're Devin Haney, don't you have to consider kind of moving up

one fight too early rather than one fight too late? Because if you don't come in in a hundred percent against Lomachenko, he's going to carve you. A long night, yeah. Of course, if anything, with me, first, I would tell if he does decide to stay at 135 pounds, he definitely need to get a nutritionist, for starters. He can't do it. He can't do it the old-fashioned way he's been doing it, because obviously, if you look at his weighing in the first camp versus fight to the second one, completely different characters, completely different, you know, person stepping on that scale.

And you're right. Maybe it is time for him to move up. But if he really still wants, because like I said, the cars are in his hands. If he really wants to say, hey, Bob, I want this fight, then he has to make the smart decision of bringing someone else on his team to help him cut that weight safely and, you know, and naturally. But if you feel like it's time to move up, then I don't think many are going to hold them to, you know, hold them against that.

Hey, it's time to move up. You are a big lightweight. Maybe it's time to see what's up north at 140 pounds. Kevin, it's not like there aren't great options for Haney at 140 either. You can argue that 140 is one of the deepest divisions in all of boxing now. Heavy at the top with Teofimo, Ryan Garcia's there at the moment, Regis Progray. Those titles, Josh Taylor still got one, but that's going to go at some point as well. It might just make sense for Hain to move up, take a medium-level fight at 140 to get used to it,

And then summer of 2023, look for that Teofimo fight. Look for that Ryan Garcia fight. Look for that pro gray fight and start taking big fights there. I think Devin Haney is going to be the guy that benefits a lot because he has so many options. You know, you look at lightweight. If he stays at lightweight, you know, you got Shakur Stevenson there. What a fight that would be him and Shakur Stevenson. Loma, as you said, you know, if he put Tank Davis together, you know, we know what probably will happen there.

But, you know, I'll just throw it out that the tank. Davis is the biggest draw. But you know that we know there is a lot of talent in both divisions, right? So he has a lot to pick from. And hey, I agree with what Jamel said. You know, you don't hold it against him if he decides you can't make it. And I also agree Jamel made the perfect point. And I think this is probably where he'll go is get a nutritionist in camp, have somebody to keep him on point. Because he's a big dude. What is he like five, eight and a half, five nine? Wide shoulders too. Like, yeah. Pretty broad shoulders and everything. So, you know, you know, you know he's not going to be a lightweight for the long term.

But if you can get that big fight, and I think Loma would qualify as a big fight, even though Loma's maybe not what he was a couple of years ago, Loma's still damn good. And that would be a big fight for him to then right off into the sunset. You've defended your undisputed title a second time against a really good opponent,

and you go up to 140 and you'll be the guy that everybody wants to see fight. They'll be calling you out. 147s will be calling him out, right? He's going to have a lot of options. I think Devin Haney is going to make a lot of money in the next couple of years. Yeah. You know, Jamel and those top rank guys love those perfecting athletes people.

They love them. What they have thought about. Yeah, they swear by those perfecting athletes, folks. You know, Jamel, you know what I also love about Devin Haney, and I've told him this. Like, he's not aligning himself with anybody. I mean, look, he started his career fighting on Showbox as an individual. pendant. He signs with Eddie Hearn. He makes a whole bunch of money, doesn't get the fights he's looking for. So he signs with top rank. And now he's got one more fight left with top rank. Maybe it's

against Lomachenko. Maybe it's against Teufima Lopez. And then he can make another choice. Like he can elect to go back and do a new deal with top rank. He can elect to align himself, maybe with Golden Boy even, to try to get a Ryan Garcia fight. Like, I love that approach. Like this, it's like the approach, and Kevin knows this that Sugar Ray Leonard took back of the day. Sugar Ray Leonard didn't align himself with anybody. He just was like, you know what? I'm going to take the fights I want to take. I mean, too often it feels like, like the fighters are just so deeply loyal to promoters. And the reality is, like, if Devin Haney had lost to Cambosis, top rank would have cut him.

Like, it's like promoters will just cut you if you lose. I mean, I mean, you've experienced some of this, Jamel. Like, you know, if you lose, all of a sudden, you're in a tough situation with your, with your promoter. So I love that Devin is operating this way because it over. opens up all the options for himself at multiple weight classes. It allows him to go to the location or the promoter that will pay you the most amount of money. And he will give you opportunities to burnish your legacy.

I mean, Devin wants to be a pound for pound guy right now. I'm not sure that he is. But he can get there because he's got the talent. And now he can go wherever he wants to go and fight those big fights. Agreed. Agreed. I like how he's playing it. Like you said,

he has everything that he wants and then the palm of his hand. If he wants to move up Nora for this last fight, then so be it. He wins there. He can come back to the table renegotiate with top rank. Go back to, you know, talk with Eddie Hearn again. And like you said, or even speak with Golden Boy about a Ryan Garcia fight. Because you know, Ryan Garcia is also looking to make a big fight because it's about that time. So I'm pretty sure he's feeling the pressure.

And he needs that, he needs that name on his resume as well. So, but Devin Haney is definitely in a good position. not only make the most money, but the best fights for his legacy as well. Yeah, I love the potential for Devin Haney at 140 and eventually 147 in all the years to come. Kevin Ayoli, Yahoo Sports, Jamel Herring, former 130-pound champion. Also, ESPN Broadcaster. When's your next fight, Jamal? Doing a great job.

Next fight, I luckily have a luckily to be ringside against Lamonecoe against Jamein Ortiz while last fought. But no, I'm actually looking forward. I'm actually looking forward to that. I'll be back then at the garden. And so I'm actually, I'm actually happy to see some live boxing again up close. Well, actually, now that we're talking to you, you give Jermaine Ortiz a shot in that fight. The pride of Worcester, Massachusetts, by the way, as a Boston guy.

I have nothing against Ortiz. But I feel like it's never, it's never easy night for anyone against Basilian Lomachev. you know you have to pretty much almost perfect with a guy like that with a guy like a lobecheco especially if you look at the mindset of it of a fighter if lumacheco looks at it as listen if i get past rtis i'll potentially have a shot to become undisputed world champion which which was which what he wants what he craves for i believe that um lomencheco is very dangerous and and not taking no for an answer coming up but again he's not the same like you point out he's not the same like he's not the same Lomacheca as he was three years ago,

and Ortiz is a young hungry fighter, so we'll have to wait and see, but of course, you have to side with Vasil Lomacheco on that night of the fight. Yeah, coming up a long layoff to Lomachenko as he returns from Ukraine to get back into the boxing game.

Fellas, great stuff. Good to talk to you. Thanks for joining me here on the show. No problem, Chris. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Jemelle Herring and Kevin Ioli for joining the show. As always, subscribe, great review this podcast

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