The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Inside Probellum

Episode Date: February 26, 2022

This week Chris talks with the former CEO of Golden Boy Promotions and the current President of Probellum, Richard Schaefer. Richard dives into exactly what Probellum is, his role, and what we should come to expect from the boxing company. Later, Chris talks with Josh Taylor about his upcoming fight with Jack Catterall. Finally, Chris helps you win some money with his top picks for this weekend. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Andy Ruiz is the heavyweight champion. Hosted by S.I's Chris Manix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. All right, so there's been a lot of attention being paid nowadays to pro-beating. in boxing, these fledgling company, which burst onto the scene in the latter stages of

2021. What most of you have seen is probelem sign up a lot of fighters, sign them to new contracts and make a quick imprint on the boxing scene. I want to learn a little bit more about what probelum is, what it's trying to be, what it hopes to achieve in the sport. So for that, I want to bring in my old friend Richard Schaefer, former CEO of Golden, and boy promotions, long time person in boxing, and the president of Probella. Richard, good to talk to you again. Oh, great to talk to you, Chris. Always happy to be on your show and, you know, hopefully I'm looking forward to see you

soon and what the ringside. Yeah, I hope so. So let's start just kind of with the basics here. I mean, what is Probellum? Because from everything I have read, it seems like you, Probellum, want to be something a little bit more than a conventional boxing promoter. Yes. So Probellum, yes, it's a company, it's a corporate entity and so on, but it really is more of a movement. Probellum is a movement within the sport of boxing. And it's very encouraging to

see on how many promoters from around the world have joined the movement, have joined Probellum. So you mentioned that, yes, we did sign a lot of fighters, but really our first order of business was to look at the boxing landscape, what has work and what has not worked in the past 10, 15, 20 years. And what we realized is, and me included, by the way, when I was a Golden Boy, we as promoters, we tend to sort of like play in our own sandbox. For some of those promoters, that sandbox is a bit bigger, and for others it's a bit smaller. But nevertheless, they really like to play within their own. within their own playground.

So what we wanted to do is we really wanted to create and build bridges among the promoters because we believe in order to elevate the sport, we need to unify. We cannot divide. And it's time for the promoters to work together because if we can sort of like create that global network of affiliated promoters, we will find a way to get these fights. we all as fight fans want to see, we're going to find a way to get them done. So what we did in the beginning, yes, we signed a handful of fighters, but what we really did is we focused on signing relationship agreements.

We focused on strategic relationships with promoters from around the world. And we have executed so far 25 of those deals where we become co-promoters, where we invest in the local markets of these promoters. And these promoters are from all around the world, from all continents. We have in Canada, for example, the long-time biggest promoter in Canada, group Yvonne Michel, he is our partner in Canada. In Puerto Rico, the biggest, most significant promoter, Peter Rivera. And then in Mexico, in Germany, with Wasserman and Sauerland and Univorland,

and Universum. We have three partners. We are going to be announcing in other European countries. We are in the Baltic states. We are in Russia. We are in Australia. We are in the Dominican. We are in Brazil. We are like all of Colombia, all over the place. And what we do is we are bringing all these promoters together. We don't want to push them out of their business, but no, we become co-promoters. These events become Probellum, co-branded, events. We have access on undercard slots on those cards and we partner up with these fighters. So we really, it's really a movement and it's very refreshing to see of all these, all these fighters working together. I recently had an example where a fight was going to go

to Perspeg, but because both promoters were part of the Probellum umbrella, we were able to work it out because they're all affiliated with us. So, you know, when you look at boxing, it's really, most people talk about the U.S. market and the UK market. And the rest of the world, the rest of the world has sort of like become a big of an after shop. So we really wanted to create a unified front from all of these promoters from around the world. And many of those promoters in those local markets, they're the ones which are building up some of the stars, which we see later on in the U.S. or in the UK. So Probella. is a movement, a movement to unify the sport.

All right. So I want to unpack a couple of things that you said there. But let's start with you. Most people know about your past with Golden Boy. You helped build that company into what we see it as it is today. After Golden Boy, you started a company called Ringstar. That was back in 2016. You signed some talent.

You partnered with David Hay. Why didn't that work? And how will this be different? Well, you know, what really happened after I started Ringstar, we were very well capitalized. So it was not the money. I had corporate partners again, just like we had at Golden Boy. And so we signed some of the best talent coming out of the Rio Olympics. And what happened soon thereafter, a company owned by one of the richest men in the world decided to get into boxing. and made a big announcement that he's going to be investing a billion dollars into boxing here in the United States.

And that, of course, was the song, right? So the song came in and it really sort of like distorted the market. What happened is that other promoters, if you wanted to compete, it sort of like elevated. It became an unsustainable business unless you have that kind of backing. And I'm not really in the business to be involved in an unsustainable. business. And so I actually had a shareholder meeting at the Ringstar and I decided to, for the time being, it was best to return the capital to the shareholders, which they very much appreciated. We had enough money in the bank to sort of like burn, burn through it and see what

happens, but that's not my style. So I returned the money and I sort of like took a step back, released a lot of the talent and kept the handful. Nonito Donair still is with me. Montestanionis is going to be fighting for the, it's going to be fighting for the WBA regular championship for the Spence, Ugas Cart from Dallas. So those are now promoted under the Probellum banner, but it didn't really make sense.

So I took the step back and I had, I stayed involved in a much smaller capacity, but I always said if I am going to come back again, it would have to be at the absolute highest level. And since then, you're in the middle of it. You know, we all have seen that this unsustainable business has corrected itself. And it's not like it was back in 2017,

when this splash, 2018, when that splash with the song was announced, it has corrected itself. And I still believe that boxing is an amazing business. It's the most exciting sport. And that's why I decided to come back and hook up with my good friend, who I've known for a long time, who I consider as the smartest man in boxing, Harrison Whitman.

And so we put the blueprint together for Probellum. But it was really the vision of our chairman, Ali Shams Poor, a UK-based, very wealthy investor, businessman. He owns a soccer team there as well. He's been passionate about boxing for a long time. He actually was the backer for McKennessy as well. And as you remember, McKennessy was the company who discovered Tyson Fury. So Ali Shams Poor was sort of like the mastermind behind Probellum,

and he then put that team together with Harrison, myself, Eric Winter, who was the chief architect behind the UFC Fight Pass. He is with us now. Antony Pitoso, who former UFC guy as well, who actually won sports Emmy for his work with the commercial related to Conner McGregor. So he sort of like put together Anthony Katanzaro from New York. you know him as well. He put together a great team. I dare to say, within their respective fields, really an all-star executive team because Ali is of the firm belief that in order to succeed,

you need to have the right people run the business. He believes as well that past success you know is an indication of future success as well. So he put that great team together and I decided, yes, I love to work with them. I love to challenge. And I think there is a lot of opportunities in boxing, which still exist. And I think, you know, I think if boxing would be a stock and traded on the New York Stock Exchange, it would be, so like going back to my banking routes, it would be a screaming buy, a screaming buy. Because look what happened with all of these other sports, how the rights fees have escalated. I mean, it's unbelievable. And then you look at the cost of boxing and you look at how boxing at the highest level still delivers, it's a screaming

by. And so I am as excited as I have ever been to be back in boxing, to be back in boxing and sort of like go back to the future and build again a company just like I've done in the past. with Golden Boy. There's been a lot written about the connection that Probellum has to MTC. What would you say to the reporting that's out there about Probellum is just kind of an extension of MTK? No, we have absolutely nothing to do with MTK. There's no, there's no link. There's no, we don't own anything. We don't own MTK. MTC doesn't own us. There is some talent which we promote, which is managed by MTK. But we work, and that's again about building bridges and having an open and transparent

infrastructure is we work with any manager. I mean, we probably work right now with all. I think we have like 50 fighters under contract now. And I would think on top of my head, we probably work with 10 different managers. from around the world. We work with 25 different promoters from around the world. So if MTC has talent, which we feel fits within our strategy, then of course we'll be happy to sign them to promotional agreements. As we are happy to work with any other manager and promoter, if they have talent which we like. As you well know, everything comes.

comes down to a broadcaster. You, to recap your own history, took Oscar Delahoya and turned him into a broadcast deal, basically for Golden Boy. You got fighters dates on HBO because you're able to kind of marshal the popularity and the talent and everything that Oscar Delahoya brought to the table. What will be the broadcast strategy, specifically, I guess, in the U.S., but globally, too, for Probelem? We, you know, the beauty with boxing is that unlike any other sport, the promoter actually owns global worldwide rights.

And that is an unbelievable commodity. There is no other sport where you can go to an Apple or a Facebook or a Netflix or any of those other streaming platforms, be it Paramount or be it the peacock or whatever they are, whoever they are. where you can go and say, look, I can offer you worldwide rights. No CHEO blocking required. We can give you all the rights and we own the sponsorship rights, the venue rights, the global TV rights. That's a very appealing property for a platform with global ambitions. And so in fact, we are in conversations with two networks in the United States, But we are in conversations as well with two streaming platforms, which are interested as well on a global deal.

So there is interest. And again, the cost for boxing compared to any other life sport is like a drop in the bucket. And that makes it even more appealing. And it makes it appealing because you have global rights. And then there is another, you know, there's another thing I want to quickly bring up, which I alluded to before. So we have 25 strategic relationships with promoters, leading promoters from around the world. The average per promoter is probably like 10 events a year.

Some do more, some do less. Mexico, it's more. In other places, it's less. But average about 10 events per year, right? So we own those rights outside of their home market. So what we have now is we own, right now, we own the rights to 250 events in 2022 with the Probellum brand attached to it, visible. There's no other promoter even close. So if you are Apple, for example, and I come to you and say, look, we can deliver you world championship fights,

but we can really deliver you 250 other events. from all over the world. And this is suddenly not a conversation anymore. Would you like to buy this fight or that fight? This is about a conversation of delivering global content to a network television partner. And that is very appealing. Talking about change in the game is something we've heard often in boxing, whether it's from PBC coming in with his network TV deals,

DeZone coming in with its plans to take boxing off-paper view. Why is this going to be any different? Why should people not believe that Probellum is something different than just a company coming in with a lot of money that will eventually, in your words, have kind of a course correction as others have had? Well, because I think I do believe that the people behind Probellum really know the market, they've been involved in boxing for a while. I myself, I never do anything without a strategy.

behind it and you know that as what I do is extremely well-sought out and that's why against all odds back in the day with me coming from banking not knowing anything about boxing was able to build golden boy into the dominant and biggest promotion company in the world having worked with with a lineup of fighters I'm just looking around my office here from canella to meoeter to Cotto to Moseley to Margarito to to Aguolo to a gulor to a lot to a little to a Victor Ortiz to, of course, Bernard Hopkins, to, I mean, Ricky Hatton to Amir Khan. The list goes on and on, Mark Antonio Barrero, Juan Manuel Marquez, all those under one umbrella from a guy who didn't really know much about boxing, if anything, I learned.

So now I know boxing. And I have access to capital, tremendous capital. But it's not just about money, because in order to succeed at the. boxing, it's not just money. It's having the right strategy, having the right partners and having the right vision. And you look, for example, at the zone, which I think they've done a great job at elevating the sport. I think they've really empowered the fighters. They paid fighters, tremendous amounts of monies. But I think what they came to realize, that if you're going to want to build a streaming platform where you here in the United States,

where you heavily rely on boxing, it's not going to work. You need other content and other sports content in the United States is extremely expensive, as we all know. And in a way, for whether if it's NBA or NFL or MLB, that pie is cut up. These rights are where they are, and it's a very expensive level of entry for any newcomer, even if they have as deep of a pocket as the song has. because what these other sports property want as well, they want the widest possible distribution. They want the most eyeballs.

And I think that's why the zone had to take a little step back here in the United States and focus on other markets where they can be that main delivery platform. So I do believe that boxing has to be part of a bigger offering, not as a standalone sport, not as a standalone streaming platform. I think it has to be in a platform and a network or a streaming service, whatever you want to do, where you can reach the most eyeballs. Because if you don't do that, it's just going to get smaller and smaller and smaller. And it makes it impossible to build stars.

And because if you can be the most exciting and best fighter, if nobody sees it, you're going to remain the best kept secret. And you're never going to really be able to become the kind of star like HBO built. HBO back in the day, Chris, you know that. That was the heart and soul of boxing. There was nobody in the last 22 years who was better at building fighters, elevating the sport and bringing eyeballs. And you look at some of those numbers they delivered back in the day.

And back then the subscriber base was not as bad. big as it is today, but they have like millions of people, millions of people watching HBO World Championship boxing or boxing after dark. So we need to get back to that level and we need to find the right platform, which is really has a wider reach, but is excited about boxing as excited as I am. So you mentioned the strategic partnerships that you've already put together, Michelle recently you announced Lou Debella elsewhere around the world but as far as I know you're not working yet with Al Heyman fighters or top rank fighters or matchroom fighters these are the entities that have the highest level of talent within their corporations do you need to cut

strategic partnerships with them to survive do you see that happening how do you see pro belm's relationship with the heavy hitters of the boxing industry oh um we have an outstanding relationship with eddie uh we have some of our fighters uh where we work together uh where we will fight on his platform as well um so absolutely i have a great longstanding relationship with frank warren as well um i uh i and and i have a i have a great relationship with al hamann we've i've i've known Al for a long time we worked together on many big fights. We broke records together. We made history together. Richard, you absolutely have and I'll give it like, but you know as well as anyone, Al Heyman keeps a lot of stuff in-house, like pretty much everything there is in-house.

Absolutely. I think if this is going to work with somebody, the biggest chance for somebody is going to work with is probably going to be me because we have a great track record. And he knows who I work and I know how he works. And we have always sort of like complimented each other. And actually, I do have Nonito Donair, who is a propellant fighter, is not signed to Haman or anyone else, is signed to us. He's fighting on, has been fighting on Hayman platforms. Or we have, I'm the sole promoter of Amantistan Jonas, the Lithuanian Olympian, which is going to mention him before, who's going to be challenging Budayev for the regular royal title. It's going to be on the Spence Uyghaz card. So I do work with Al.

We're going to have another fighter on that card, one of our. young kids from Houston. So absolutely. No, no. This, this, when I, when we said about unifying, building bridges among promoters, it wasn't just sort of like ascendance in the press release. Oh, yeah, to sound great. No, we really meant it. And that came from the very top, from Ali Shamspur, our chairman, who said, look, we need to do that because what has happened in boxing hasn't worked. Everybody focusing on their, own little sandbox, I mentioned it before. We need to unify. We need to, we cannot continuing to divide. We need to act as one sport. And Probellum wants to invest in that. And believe me, to be these, whether

if it's Lou DeBella in the United States or Yvonne or all these other, that costs us a lot of money. I mean, a lot of money. I mean, so we are, we are investing in the sport. That's what we do right now. And we, because why do we do that? Because we believe in the sport. We believe in the future of boxing, and that's when you invest. And that is exactly what we are doing. So yes, I have a good relationship with Todd Dubuff as well.

You know, so we had to talk, you know, in the past. And so I, he's one of my very closest friends is actually good, very good friends with him as well. also, I will communicate and I will work with all of those fighters and with all of those promoters. We are open as well. And think about that. If, let's say, we have a fighter under an exclusive promotional agreement and we feel that for that particular fighter, a co-promotion relationship with, for example, top rank, or with Eddie or with Oscar, or with whoever it is, makes the most sense for that fighter because we see that they are the opponents for this particular

fighter are really within that other or with with TGB are within that that other platform. Guess what? We're going to do that. And we will assign rights to our fighters to another promoter if it helps to get fights done. That's what we need to do. And that's what's going to elevate the sport. I don't disagree. Stop with that negativity everywhere.

Talking the other day to a media guy who called me. And I told him, I said, look, I don't want to talk shit anymore. I used to. I used to. And where did it bring us? Where did they bring us as a sport? You know, people attacking each other and talking shit, you know. Now, you know, there are some, who shall I say,

there are some nasty elements in the sport of boxing. and I could like, I mean, I could let lose right now, but I won't. But I want to bite my tongue because it's better for the sport. And we're really going to be really going to try to keep that movement going. And it's exciting. I mean, today we signed another promoter in Europe. It's going to probably be announced later on this week or early. And we we love to invest in those markets.

We have a relationship in Ghana with the largest promoter in Ghana. And Ludi Bella, for example, has great relationships in Ghana. He promoted many of the Ghana fighters from there, including Ike-Cortez. So that's a perfect fit as well. So now Ike-Corté in Ghana is going to work with us promoting fighters over there. And, you know, it's just like it's so refreshing to see this coming together. I was at the WBC Convention late last year in Mexico City. And it was almost like a probellum convention as well, because there were all these promoters

we work together. And there's so much stuff we can do together. It really is refreshing to see that infighting among promoters is stopping. Good news for the fighters, great news for the sport. Well, it's stopping somewhat. But I think Eddie and Bob, Eddie and Bob would disagree. They seem to be at each other's throats fairly often, and they still have a lot of juice, obviously, in this sport.

I guess my question, Richard, is, like, I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I mean, it's, you know, boxing does need to take the negativity out of it. It does need to focus on the fights. It does need to focus on collaboration more than siloing yourself off into kind of your own little lane. But, like, what, if you go to a top rank, or a PBC and say you want to work with them on something. Like what value are you pitching? What value right now does Probellum bring that top rank or Eddie Hearn or PBC can't get on their own?

Well, some of the talent we have, for example, if we have talent which makes sense to complement the stable of a top rank or a PBC and we have the right talent, then why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't they be interested? If I look at, you know, top rank, which has some heavy weights, and we have the Olympic gold medalist from the Tokyo Olympics, and maybe it makes sense. Maybe it doesn't, you know, maybe it makes sense with Eddie. Maybe to sign a deal with, maybe work as it relates to REACH's program,

maybe work with PPC because they have a lot of 135-pounders, which are on the verge of moving up. and they have 140 pounders as well. So does it make sense to make a deal with PBC? Yes. So we will bring something to the table. And I think what we will bring to the table as well is our network of affiliated promoters.

And so and what we what we will bring to the table as well, I can tell you that, unbelievable sponsor relationships. We will be announcing, I would say, within the next. months, months and a half, the single biggest sponsor boxing has ever seen, a global sponsor. And that is attractive. I mean, we talked about the TV rights we own with those 25 relationships we have. Now, imagine, you know, what I used to do when I was a golden boy, I used to go to sponsors and say, oh, we're going to have a great show on Cinco de Mayo in Las Vegas.

Are you interested in buying that? And yes, they might be, especially some of the beer companies, or I might have some fights at Staples Center. So you sort of like fight, sell fight by fight. Maybe you sell all of the Golden Boy fights or whatever to one single sponsor. Great. But here, if you are, for example, Ford Motor Car, or you are Coca-Cola, or you are a global brand, and I can go to you and say, look, we are right now,

we have 250 events per year around the world. By the end of the year, the number is probably going to be closer or over 300 events. And you as Europe, you, Mr. Coca-Cola or you, Mr. Ford, I can give you exposure on all of those events from around the world. Global sponsorships, 30, 40 different countries, because that network of 25 will expand. to close to 50 by the end of the year. So we're going to have access. Imagine the conversation I'm having with the sponsor, not about a few fights in the United States. I'm talking about delivering a global platform. So we can deliver sponsors to some of those other promoters as well, which I think any promoter, even if you're the big promoters, would like and would like to have access to.

Do you see there being a pro-bellum card in the U.S. in 2022? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There's no question about it. So my goal would be to have that actually sometime in probably May, it says it may, before the summer. The most appealing U.S. fighter that you have in your stable right now is Nonito Donaire, who is still at the top of his game,

a top 10 pound for pound guy, even at this stage of his career. Where do you stand with him? What is he looking at next? Has been talk about in a way, he's told me he's interested in dropping down and weight if there's the right fight available. Where do you stand with Donair?

What's really amazing. If you look at like, I was doing that 10 years ago, 2012, I think his fight was a fight of the year and he was fighter of the year and he was in the top 10. And here we are 10 years later, he is like fine wine, getting better with age.

And it's just amazing. Getting better going down and wait, remarkably. See, this is exactly what it is. So after he had that disputed loss against McBelaino, he used to be with Top Rank, Donaire. They released him and he came to see me. And I gave him a couple of fights, and including the fight against Carl Frampton in Ireland,

which was at a hundred and twenty-one. pounds. So I was there to fight. It was, Frampton won the fight. It was, you know, Donair is never in a bad fight. And so I went, before they announced the result, I went up to the ring mat and you can see that if you Google the fight, I go up and I say, hey, I have a question. Can you make 118? And he looked at me, yes, but why? I said, okay, that's all I need to know. I'll talk to you when we're back in the States. I'll come and see you. So then I called my friend Collette Sowerland,

and I remember I was part of the World Boxing Super Series. I was on the board there, and we were going to do a 118-pound tournament. And we were pretty much set with who was going to be in it, including Inoui was in it. It was a great lineup. And so I called Kali. I said, hey, I'm here in Ireland.

I talked to, he just fought, he just fought the Frampton. I talked to Donair. He can make 118 pounds. Let's put him in the tournament. He put him in the tournament. And what does he do? He makes it to the final.

And the final in 2019, the bantamweight world boxing supersedes final was fight of the year against the monster Inoui. And he broke his Isaac and he knew he was out for months. And it was fight of the year. So it's just amazing what has happened with him. And at 118, he is impossible. to beat. And I do believe that if we can pull that rematch off against Inoui, he will beat

Inoui. I am convinced about that. Look what he's done in his past two fights. He knocked out two undefeated fighters, including Nordinu Bali, the world champion, WBC, became Donair now is WBC world champion. So now I talk to Donair, and he wants to only one fight. He wants to fight Inouye again. And so I've been in conversations with Inouye's promoter, Mr. Honda from Taiken. And we have, we sort of like have, we have in principle, we have in principle an agreement in place, but we need to, you know, there's still some details to be worked out, particular as well as it relates to date. because the COVID situation in Japan pretty bad.

They had to postpone the Murata fight. So there's a lot of stuff going on. So we need to see and hopefully we'll have something more concrete to announce within the next 30 days. But that's the fight he wants and frankly that's the fight I want. You know me. I like to do big fights. I like to go significant fights.

And that rematch of the fight of the year is probably one of the five most talked about and most wanted fights in the story. sport of boxing, period. And again, for Probellum to be in this position, it's pretty sweet. Yeah. Look, I love that fight as a rematch. There is a part of me when Donair suggested it on this show a couple of months ago about going to 115. Donner, Chocolatito, that's not bad. That's... Oh, I agree. I totally agree. I'd like to see send Donner down to San Diego next week and have him call out Chocolatito in the ring if Chocolatito beats Martinez, which is no easy task itself. Are you going to be there?

I will be there, yes. Okay, I'm thinking about maybe coming down and scout because I agree with you. And by the way, when Donner told me that as well, and he really, and he was at the way in for his last fight against Gabayo, he was in the morning 116 pounds, and then he drank some water and he was on the scale at 117. So he could easily make 115.

So imagine how tenest dating he would be, at 1 15 and i that fight with chocolate tito if he wins would be a dream match a dream for me so i definitely sort of like want to keep that door uh open or open as well let's be clear and he would be very much on board donair would be very much on board in that donair is uh you know another one we we discussed was um fulton uh the guy at one uh one one what was it 120 yeah 22, who has two of the belts, he would easily go and fight him as well. But I personally think those two fights at 115, Chocolatito and Inoui at 118 are simply two must see fights. A chocolateito Donaire, two Hall of Famers, guys popular in Southern California, bangers. I don't

know how it's a U.S. fight that can't miss. It does not get better than that. I'm the same page with you. Yeah, no question. Well, Richard, always good to talk to you, man. I'm looking forward to seeing how Probella moves in boxing over the next year. And look, everything you're saying, I know boxing fans will agree with and just will cross their fingers and hope that it leads to bigger and better fights, both in the U.S. and worldwide. Well, thank you very much, Chris.

And you know me. I'm not the kind of guy who over promises and underdelivers. I underpromise and I overdeliver. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at It podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keer Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross,

because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines,

as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast. Learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. And when we came out in September with the goal to be in the first year, it says it in the press release,

that we were going to be involved in 100 events. Everybody saw in the first year. Everybody saw we were crazy. Now the number is not 100. It's 250. So we clearly have a mission. We have a vision. And we will deliver.

And so I'm excited about it. Thank you, Chris. It's good that you're working with a guy in Debella that over promises then forgets what he said, then over promises again and just keeps going round and rounded circles. Well, that's right. Now it's part of the Probellion family. Good to talk to you, Richard. I appreciate your time.

Thank you. Take care. Okay. Bye, bye, bye, Chris. When we come back, my conversation with Josh Taylor. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure.

Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination. our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org, brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council.

What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of warm. wonder, and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about

and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinwiddie host of the new podcast navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council.

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code boxing and make every fight mean more with the Fandual Sportsbook app. All right, Josh Taylor is the undisputed 140 pound champion on Saturday. He will defend those titles against Jack Catterall over in Scotland. That's a fight you can see here in the United States on ESPN Plus and Josh joins me here on the show.

Josh, you were and have been kind of a staple at fighting in Glasgow. Been a few years now since you've been back there. How are you feeling about kind of your homecoming fight? Yeah, I'm delighted. You know, I've been on the road for a couple of years now. since 2019. So yeah, since I won the title, really. So yeah, I've been away for a couple of years, obviously due to the pandemic and stuff as well. But yeah, the last couple of fights have been

behind closed doors and limited capacity as well. So yeah, it's been pretty frustrated in the last couple of years. So I'm delighted to be back at home and delighted to be back in Glasgow and Scotland and fighting in front of more home fans again. You know, I can't wait. How is a Glasgow crowd different from other crowds? crowds in the UK? I think they just make a hell of an atmosphere, you know. They just make a real cauldron of the atmosphere. It can be hostile, the noise, the passionate, always noisy, you know.

So it's a great atmosphere and one of the best in the world. I love it, you know, especially with the arena, the hydro is it's high, but small and tight and compact. And it makes for a great atmosphere and the fans are being nice and noisy. So after you won these titles, picking up that win over Jose Ramirez. How much thought did you give right then to just vacating them and moving up?

Not much really. You know, I just sort of took it as it comes. You know, I made an agreement as well with my management team and Jack that, you know, he stepped aside for allow me to fight Ramirez. So this is why we're here now today. You know, when I was,

doing Teofima Lopez's fight last November, you could tell in the buildup to that fight that he wasn't all the way there. And maybe it was because of stuff going on outside the ring. Maybe it was because he wasn't all that motivated to face a guy like George Cambosos at that time. Have you had any problems kind of getting as motivated as you were to go after those titles against Ramirez? Absolutely none at all. Absolutely none at all because I know he's a threat. it's coming to take what I've got. You know, if I don't produce the goods, my belts are gone. The fights that I want to get, the fights that I want to chase,

and being megastar fights and marquee fights, they're all gone. I don't get the result. So absolutely no lack of motivation or no lack of what we win or motivation to produce the goods here. So no, absolutely not, no chance of that. You know, part of defending these titles, and you've talked about this this week. I was reading some of your comments about you have to pay these sanctioning fees, man.

Like you've got to give up like 12% of your. purse or something like that to keep these titles. I mean, that's a lot of money to give away. It sure is, yeah. But, you know, there's nothing I can do about it, you know, unless I want to give away the titles and give them up and not be a champion anymore. You know, it has a lot of money to give away, but it's part of the game. If the WBC said to you, we want to make you franchise champion, what would you say? It's not a world title, you know, so I'm not going to pay an extra money for a belt that's not a world title. I respect that, Josh, because yes, that's made a mess of the titles in all the boxing. Really, I mean, you probably only consider you and Canello to be the true

undisputed champions in boxing. Yeah, there is only two. And it's myself and Canello and obviously the women as well, but two male boxers, and it's myself and Canello. As you've kind of prepared for this fight, you had an injury back in December. I mean, how significant was that injury and Where are you now physically? Everyone's perfect. I've had a great training camp, you know, since the injury. You know, the injury wasn't too bad, but it was hindering my, I couldn't do my running.

I couldn't do my S&C stuff, you know, and I couldn't get any peak physical condition because I couldn't do the exercises that I do to get into fighting fit, you know. So I could have probably made the 18th of December, but I'd have been questioning my fitness and my conditioning and had the bit of doubts in my mind whether they'd have been physically. ready. So, you know, I've, I've sacrificed a hell of a lot and worked so hard to acquire these belts. So there's no way I'm leaving it to chance to risk and to risk losing the belts just because I didn't prepare properly. So I had to put it back and make sure that I am fully fit and I am now.

So that's why we were. That's why I delayed it. You didn't seem too happy when Caterall suggested that you had kind of fake that injury to get out of the fight in December. Yeah, I don't know what he was trying to get at. I don't know. I don't know if he was trying to say I was making excuses or whatever. I don't know what he was trying to do, but it got shut down pretty quickly. It was pretty strange and pretty bizarre comment for me to be fair. When you look at Caterall, the challenge he presents, like, is there anything he does that concerns you?

I mean, how do you go into this fight? It doesn't do anything that concerns me. I've watched them diligently. and it does a lot of things really well. There's things that I need to watch out that it does. I need to watch out for, but nothing that concerns me, no. Do you go into this fight thinking it's your last at 140 pounds? No, I'm going to this fight thinking that I need to win it.

I need to win it. I need to get the right result. And that's all I'm thinking about. I want to remain champion for as long as I'm in the sport, as long as I can be. So I'm no thinking that this is the last fight at 140 or I'm moving up after this or anything like that. I'm thinking about winning on Saturday and that's all. How is getting down to 140 for you at this point in your career? It's pretty comfortable.

Everybody seems to have an opinion that I struggle would make the weight because I'm so big for the weight, which is true. I am massive for the weight, but I also make it very comfortable. I've got a great metabolism, great body. I'm blessed with great genes. I'm a giant for the weight, and I make it comfortable. So, yeah, there's absolutely no problem. I could be a career for 140 pound or if I really wanted to. Yeah, for me, it's not that I don't think you could make the weight. It's more like the recency bias of going through what I saw with Teufima, where after that fight, he said, and look, it's after the fact, but he says, I should have dropped the belts and moved up right away. I can't make 135

anymore. Do you feel like, yeah, not the case for you? No, not at all. What's the secret to making weight given your size. I mean, metabolism is great, but what, you know, what else goes into it? How am I supposed to answer that? I just make it well. That's all you need to know. You know, I make the weight well. I make it comfortable and that's fine. You know, so I don't know how we answer that. You know, I make the weight comfortable. I've got a great nutritionist on board. You know, it helps make the weight. Brilliant. It puts the right fuel in my body at the perfect times. And I'm making it comfortable. You know, before I was doing it myself, I was making the weight, but I was very grumpy and, you know, and, you know, doing it all the wrong way,

but I'm doing it the right way now and it's so much more easier. You've got a great relationship with Ben Davison. What makes that fighter, trainer, kind of relationship special for you? He's just a great coach and I know I'm a great guy, but he's a great coach, you know, his ability to break things down to the fundamentals of the sport and break complicated things down, simple, not forgetting the basics, which is good. You know, if you can't never overdo the basics and do all the basics well and then we pick it up and they do well and

we pick the pace up and we pick everyone up and they just analyze everything. We've got a great team on board myself, Lee Wiley as well, who does the analysing video analysis over techniques and the way I can improve my techniques and things like that as well. So we're doing everything absolutely brilliant. We've got a great team around me now, you know, All around the board, you know, I've got great, I've got a great team right around me now surrounding me. You know, there's a great video I saw recently, and this was from the past when you were in Tyson Fury's training camp, you know, landing body shots on him. And, I mean, what's it like to kind of work out with a guy like Tyson Fury? What's a Tyson Fury camp like? We were only there for the day. He was only in the gym for the day, to be honest.

we just had a good chat, a good bit of, you know, batter between us and a good chat and, you know, he jumped in the ring and we got to sort of hit a weight him and that for a laugh. It was just a bit of a laugh. Yeah, it was good. Good to have him. Yeah, it was good to see him. You surprised he could take as many of your, I mean, you were letting some pretty good body shots go there. Well, he's just the big men hitting him, so I'm pretty sure me, I'm a little wasp stinging him.

If it looked like it hurt, that's just, just looking for that video. Last thing for you, you're going to be connected with Terrence Crawford until that fight actually happens. I mean, what do you think of that fight? Like, how does that motivate you to, as you start looking ahead in your career? It's a fight that I would love to have. I think I'm in the sport to challenge my best, challenge myself against the best. I believe he is the best in the business, you know, I think he's a pound for best fighter on the planet. You know, so I think that's what I'm in the sport for.

I'm one of the best in the planet as well. And, you know, I'd love to. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw,

unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or we're you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode, with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keer Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we, are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person

while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing,

growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Go and challenge them

and see how I do against someone as one. I'm very confident that I can pull off the win as well. What gives you that confidence? Something you see in your style compared to his. Yeah, I believe in myself 100%.

I believe in my talent. I believe in my ability. And there's also things that I see in Terrence Scrofford's game also I think I could do as well. But, you know, I just believe in my talent and I believe I can beat anybody on the on plan.

You can't get involved, obviously, in, like, the politics of boxing, but when you saw Crawford split with top rank, did any part of you go, oh, man, I might not get that fight now? Not really. You know, I think if there's two fighters that want to fight enough, it can happen. So I know that Terence Crawford's got a desire to come back over to the UK and fighting stuff. So who better to fight them myself? You know, it'd be great. Well, Josh, good to have you back on Saturday in Glasgow on ESPN Plus. Looking forward to that fight. everything that comes in the future. Thank you very much. Thank you. Cheers. When we come back, this week's picks brought to you by Fandul.

All right, time now for this week's picks brought to you by our friends over at Fanduel. This week I am zeroing in on the big fight over in the UK. Josh Taylor, undisputed 140 pound champion. Jack Catterall, undefeated mandatory challenge. This fight's going to be in Glasgow, Scotland, the backyard of Josh Taylor. and I'm going with Taylor. I know the odds are really high in his favor, minus 1350 at this point from our friends at Fanduil.

But I am taking Taylor because I just think he is so much more talented than Catterall. I have not heard of any problems with Taylor making weight. I have not heard of any lingering issues from the knee injury that forced the postponement of this fight back in December. And when I talk to Taylor, he just seems motivated to win this fight and to move on to bigger and better things. How he wins this fight? I'm going to the decision on this one.

I think Caterall's tough. He's unbeaten, as I said, and this is the biggest fight of his career. I think he hangs in there and goes the distance with Josh Taylor. Taylor to win by decision plus 160. That might be the bet where you make your most money on. So going all in on Josh Taylor on this week's picks. Look for your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest.

It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org.

Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. And we're live here outside the Perez family home, waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-arm kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter who looks to be about nine or ten has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed and they're Off. Ah, but looks like

Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes! Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at

NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Brought to you by Nitsa and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could

lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Richard Schaefer and Josh Taylor for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. And next week, I will be in San Diego, and we will be joined by Sergio Moore. Manix, I'm a man on the run, and I'm not doing your fucking podcast. We're not doing it, bro.

I'm a man on the run. On the run. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about, and we're here to change that. April Dinnuity host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast

or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health at Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. Mom, what does the chicken say? Uh, dog. Cat. Giraff. Giraff.

Giraff, really? Girat. You're not going to get it all right. Just make sure you know the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Get it right. Visit nhtsa.gov. Slash the right seat.

Brought to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Ad Council. What grows in the forest? Our imagination and our family bonds. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor?

It signals to the world that you not to be played with, And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of Tontons and Wampas on the Ice Planet Hot,

or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.