The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Jake Paul "I want to fight a real boxer"

Episode Date: January 8, 2022

It's the first podcast of this new year, and it's a good one. Dan Rafael from World Boxing News has his own newsletter over at substack, he stops by to run through all the news of the last couple of weeks. They dive into what's ahead for Canelo and for Ryan Garcia, and all the big-name fighters that are now looking for their first fights of 2022. Later, the very polarizing Jake Paul sits down with Chris to talk about his big impact on boxing and what Jake hopes 2022 looks like moving forward. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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hosted by S.I.'s Chris Mannix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. All right, welcome back. Another episode of Boxing with Chris Manix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network.

First podcast of this new year, and we have a good one. Dan Rayfield, longtime boxing writer, works now at World Boxing News. has his own newsletter over at Substack. He's here, and we run through all the news of the last couple of weeks. What's ahead for Canelo, for Ryan Garcia, all the big-name fighters that are now looking for their first fights of 2022. A little bit later on, Jake Paul, the former YouTuber turned boxer, very polarizing guy, Jake, but he's also had a pretty big impact on boxing.

I talked to Jake about what his 2021 was like and what he hopes 2022 looks like moving forward. As always, best way to support this podcast, get over at Apple Podcast, post a comment, leave a rating. It's simple, it's easy, it's free, the best way to make sure that we keep doing this podcast week after week. That's it. All right, on to the show. All right, Dan Rayfield is here. Longtime boxing writer, world boxing news, ringtvee.com.

You can read Dan Daly on his substack. Subscribe to that, all boxing fans. should be daily, weekly, monthly readers, what have you? Dan, what's up, man? Happy New Year. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. I said to your producer, Adam, I said, if I'm the first guest of the new year,

that's quite an honor. I wonder if there was any extra special pay involved in today's appearance. We will happily send you a volume T-shirt, okay? Or a volume hat. Can't wait. Volume is coming your way. A lot to get into here, Dan, as we start the new year. boxing, nothing, nothing heavy in January.

You got Joe Smith Jr. coming back, fighting Callum Johnson in a pretty big fight. Then the schedule picks up in February, March, April. I want to go through a couple of things, but I want to start at the top, Dan. And that's with Canello Alvarez, the pound for pound king, who said when he won his last fight a couple of months ago that he would make a decision on his next fight in January. So here we are in January. and Canelo, who was at the New Year's Day show that was headlined by Luis Ortiz and Charles Martin, had this to say about his future.

I don't care. I don't care, really. Whatever is Eddie wants, I'm ready. I'm ready for everything. So I don't care. I really don't think about it. I just want to fight the best and that's it and make history. I don't care who is there.

I'm ready for everyone. So Conno not really showing his cards there, Dan, as far as what he's got coming next. But as you kind of assess the landscape for Canello, what do you think is the most likely scenario for him when he gets back in the ring? Well, I saw the interview on that pay-per-view that you referenced with Ray Flores. And a couple of weeks before that paper view, I had spoken to Canello one-on-one on a Zoom call because I was writing the story about him being the Ring Magazine's two days. thousand and twenty one fighter of the year. And other than his thoughts about that, we did discuss for some other stories that I wrote for World Boxing News and also for my own newsletter that, you know, other stuff related to his, his possible move to cruiserweight, possibly, you know, going to light heavyweight,

other fighters, you know, in the super middleweight or middleweight division coming up to him. The point is he was steadfast on what he said. And it is whatever Eddie Renosa wants, because what he told me was that when Eddie went to the WBC convention and stood up in front of everybody and asked for the approval for Canello to fight Maccaboo for the WBC's Cruiserweight title and the entire audience that was there gasped because it was such a shocking sort of request. Canello told me that he did not know that that was going to transpire prior to Eddie making that request that it came as a surprise to him that he found out because Eddie later called him and also because a lot of people on social media were sending him messages about it and

showing him videos of Maccaboo, etc. The point was he said whatever Eddie wants to do, and I quote, I'm his warrior. So I don't think Canelo has given it, I'm sure he's thought about it, but not detailed thought about exactly who he wants to fight. He only knows he wants to make more boxing history. He wants to fight in May. He knows it might not be until June. But the point is he's ready to go with whatever Eddie,

who is his trainer and manager and, you know, older brother figure, if you will, to do what he wants. Eddie has guided him this far and he's rolling with who got him. There's no reason to not trust Eddie Rinoza who's got his best interest at heart. And they've been a great team. Could be cruiserweight. Could be light heavyweight. Yeah.

So to me, Dan, there are three emerging options. One is, as you mentioned, Junior Macabu, who has to defend his title first, supposedly, at some point later this month. That we'll see with Don King and how that card comes off. That's an option. PBC, it sounds like they're dangling Jamal Charlo. That's a fight that Eddie Rinozo has mentioned as being of interest to him and Canello. It doesn't really do a heck of a lot for me because Jamal Charlo's done nothing really for the last five years as he's been middleweight champion. The other option is Demetri Bevo, who didn't really distinguish himself in his last fight, but he does have a light heavyweight belt.

and that could be the start of a run at 175 pounds. I don't know how to handicap it right now, Dan. I really don't. I mean, you know, could the cruiserweight fight happen? Sure. I mean, you could probably get the zone to buy it, and you could do it wherever you want, and it would give him another title in a fifth weight division.

Does he want to stay with PBC, fight Charlo? I don't know. Does you want to stay at light heavyweight? So I guess, I mean, can you handicap them at all? Like, do you have an odds-on favorite right now for Canello? I really don't because, as you said, Dave kept their, I don't even think it's that they're keeping their cards close to their vest.

I don't think it's like they're trying to be secretive about it. I just don't think that they know. You know, he did say that he would sit with his team in January. We're like a few days into January. So, you know, I wouldn't expect it was going to happen on New Year's Day. So, you know,

there's still probably, you know, sometime the next couple weeks, I would hope they will get together and have that, that more serious conversation. So in terms of handicapping it, you know, I think it's going to come down to what is, you know, they'll say to Canello their opinions,

and he'll say what he wants. I think if he has his way, he'll be kind of tugged by the notion of the historical element of a cruiserweight title in a fight that's probably makeable. You know, if you take all the things into consideration of putting these events on, if he asked me, and the choices are either,

and you know, I know there's other things that are possible, but if it were the three choices presented were, and financially it's all similar and, you know, all the other elements of an event are similar. And the options were Maccaboo for the Cruiserweight title, fighting Bevo for the light heavyweight belt that he has, or defending the super middleweight belt against Charlo. I'd go for Macaboo.

It's historical. It's a fifth division. It's another weight class. It's a big, strong Southpaw, who's a much bigger guy. Like you said, Charlo, I like Charlo as a fighter, but he hasn't done anything to earn a fight with Canelo Alvarez. You know, let's see him battle one of the other. top guys to earn that shot. And Bivol, very talented fighter. I mean, honestly, I was watching the

Salamov fight and, you know, I wanted to get my money back from the zone for that month for making me watch that. I mean, it was one of the most boring things I ever saw in my life. So, you know, De Bevole has looked terrible in his last couple of five. I mean, he didn't look terrible from the standpoint that he did he somehow struggled or didn't win. He won every second of the fight, but it was, you know, it was a steaming pile of crap, if you be honest with it. And before that, Greg Richards, just a regular fighter from the UK, you know, gave his best effort but was out class, but it was much closer than it should have been. Why am I excited to see Bevo fight Canelo? I'm not at all. So, you know, there's the element of the unknown with Maccaboo.

I mean, I'm familiar with him. I've watched him many times. But again, he's big, he's strong, he's left-handed. And the most important thing if you talk to Canello is something that drives him to motivate him to get up, you know, and really put the work in. He's a motivated guy anyway, but the element of the history of becoming a WBC Cruiserweight champion is a big deal. And fans can knock it, they can poo-poo it, they can say, who's this guy? That's fine. But if my choices are Canello versus Maccaboo or against Charlo or against Bebo, I'm taking Maccaboo all day long in that particular three choices. Yeah, you know what's unfortunate is that Galapkin's fight against Marado was rescheduled because

if Golofkin had looked really good in that fight against Marada had become a unified champion at 160, I mean, who knows with these two, but that might have been enough to get Canello to agree to face him for the third time. And that, despite what, you know, the hardcore boxing fans feel, that is still the most marketable fight you can make.

Oh, no doubt about it. I mean, I'm not opposed to a third fight between Canello and Golofkin, not whatsoever. But I don't, like, let it control my life like some people, too. I mean, if it happens, fine. seen it twice. They were terrific fights. I feel for Triple G because like everybody, I thought he, you know, got a raw deal in the first fight. I know Kenilo got the win in the second fight. Many of us at ringside that night, myself included thought that was a draw. But the point

is, you know, he fought him two times and he moved on and he's been doing lots of good things since then. And ever since that fight, Golofkin has really fallen off. You know, he's the oldest world title holder in the sport today at 39, not getting any younger, obviously. It's going to be of 40 soon and hasn't looked particularly devastating or great in his last, you know, few fights. A lot of people thought he lost the Debrunchenko. And so, but because of the, rivalry that these two guys have and even more significant in some ways because of how good those fights were, of course, there's going to be people that would want to see them do it a third time. And again, when I made my pronouncement, I'll take Maccaboo, that was given the choices

of Maccaboo, Charlo, you know, or Bebo. But if you throw a triple G into that equation, you know, let's do it. Look, Bebo's got to be kicking himself, too, that, I mean, if he had gone out and just dispatched Salamoff in the way he should have, would have a stronger case to be made that he should be the guy to face Connell. Instead, he just... That was a horrible fight. Horrible.

I mean, I was having flashbacks of watching some rigando fights, to be honest. Yeah. I don't know what's happened. What has happened to Bebel? Like, when he was on HBO, like, he was knocking everybody out. And it's not like his level of competition has gone up since then. Like he's going to distance. It's gone down.

Besides Joe Smith. Like Joe Smith was a step up. But Lenin Castillo and Craig Richards and now Salamoff, like these are not high-level guys. And he's going to distance with them. I mean, I don't know if it's boredom. I don't know if he's the type of fighter that needs something to get him up more to fight to the level of his opposition. There are fighters who when they get in the ring, if they're fighting an elite fighter, they're going to rise to the occasion and do well against them.

There's others that if they know that they're not. not in with, you know, one of the best guys in the division that it's going to somehow diminish their performance, you know, maybe, maybe Bivol is in that situation mentally. If that's the case, you know, that's, that's his fault, to be quite honest, you know, it's up to him to look, boxing, it's a sport, but it's also entertainment. And at some point, if you're the athlete and you're, and you're out there doing interviews and begging for certain fights, you have to give the people a reason to demand the fight. And B'Vol, again, talented fighter. I have nothing bad to say nice guy.

I've interviewed him. I've been around him. I know you have, of course, with your assignments on his own. I mean, just seems like a very good dude, no doubt about it. But he hasn't given us any reason as fans to say, oh, I have to see Beev against, you know, Canelo or against this guy or against that guy. I mean, honestly, I'd rather see if Canello is going to fight at light heavyweight, you know, the fight to make is him against either a better BF or Joe Smith, you know,

depending on how Joe's fight goes next week. better be of, obviously he's going to be out for a few months with it, just the horrendous cuts that he suffered against Marcus Brown a few weeks ago. But that, that's a real fight. I mean, in terms of competition number one, but also from a fan, some of the fans would be interested in because you know it's going to probably be a good fight. So if you tell me, Canella wants to fight Joe Smith, great. I actually just, I talked to Joe Smith this week for a piece I'm doing for the Rings website in advance of that fight. And while Joe's not the type of guy that's looking ahead, you know, he would love to put his name in that Canello sweepstakes, you know, and he's very, very open about it.

He's like, of course, it's huge money, but, and I'm not going to complain about that. I want to make a lot of money, but also it's the notion that I get, I would get the opportunity to fight the pound for pound king. He's not shy about calling Canello number one pound for pound. And he says, I'm an athlete. I'm a competitor. And not only do I want to make a lot of money, but I'm paraphrasing, but I want to fight the best guys. And Canello's the best guy. And if he's going to be a light heavyweight, you know, come fight me for my belt. So good options. at light heavy. Very good.

And it would be fun to see Canello go from undisputed at 168, down to speed at 175. You talk about legacy. That would be a real legacy defining accomplishment. All right, let's move on and move down to the lightweight division where George Cambosus, the four belt champion, is sifting through options right now. And once again, Dan, I think we're looking at three realistic options

for Cambosis to defend his titles, that being Devin Haney, Vasily Lomachenko, and Tank Davis. So I've talked to people in Cambosis camp the last few days. They haven't really gotten too deep into it at this point, but they certainly will in the next couple of weeks. I saw Peter Khan was at the top rank office. Peter Khan, Cambosis, manager, the top rank office was Xander Zayas.

I'm sure the subject of Cambosis Lomachenko came up at some point during that visit. But for what I've been told, Dan, the two non-negotiables, as I use air quotes on that, are, a rematch clause and the fight being in Australia. So if you take that into account, how do you handicap the next opponent for George Camposos? I mean, they're all good options. First and foremost, if you're a fan,

I think anybody that's interested would be happy to watch any of those fights. You know, I certainly would be perfectly happy seeing them against any of those guys. But if I'm handicapping it, I don't see Tank Davis as the option in the next. fight. I'm not saying that Tank is somehow avoiding him or doesn't want to fight him or it can't be made. I just timing wise, I just don't see that happening. And I frankly, based on the way Tank's business side of his career has been going, I don't see him packing up and going to fight him in Australia, not because he's afraid, but it just doesn't make sense for a whole lot of different reasons.

They got their plan. They're doing their thing. And while that fight may happen in the future, I just don't, I would handicap that, make that definitely the last of those three options that you mentioned. The other two, you know, I guess if I had to pick, I mean, you know, I don't think Lomachenko or Haney are going to, are going to be somehow fearful of fighting him in Australia. Lomachenko, you know, has fought his whole career on the road, basically. So, you know, for him to fight in Australia, it would be no big deal. Devin Haney is, you know, unless he's just straight lying, has said numerous times that he'd be happy to go on the road, just let's make the fight. You were there interviewing the two of them together, you know, following Devin's

over Jojo Diaz, and he certainly didn't have any objection or, you know, the body language didn't indicate anything negative towards the possibility of packing his bags and traveling. So I think that that element is okay, as long as the broadcaster in America is okay with it. Being honest, I'd like to see him fight Devin Haney, given the choice between the two. And the reason is very simple. Well, one, it's a, it's a fairly straightforward, easy fight to make all things considered. not that the Lomachenko fights is certainly, you know, super complicated. But I want the WBC situation clarified.

I want it cleaned up. I want one WBC champion, you know, all due respect to, you know, my friend Maricio Suleman, you know, but in that particular issue, we can't, you know, agree if the sky is blue or the grass is green. You know, it's just time to, you know, this franchise thing is annoyed me like a thorn or, you know, a splinter in my finger for, you know, since they created this thing. but more importantly the two fighters seemed interested to fight each other um clash of styles uh they both talk a good game you know again nothing wrong with loma nothing wrong with the tank fight

that's the beauty of the lightweight division chris is you can take you know any number of these guys whether it's the three we've mentioned you know and isa cruz coming off even a close loss of tank obviously ryan garcia's there um you know i'm not saying teaphael lopez his name because he's going to move up to the 140 pound division but the point is you got a lot of good guys at the top of the food chain in that way class. You even have other fighters that are interesting, maybe that aren't as well known. A Michelle Rivera, for example,

there's good talent in that division. George Cambosis is the king of the division right now. He can pick and choose who he wants to fight. But if he picks, I hope he fights Haney. It's a little dangerous if you're Cambosis to not take one of the offers that's on the table for a big fight

because you never know what could happen. Like you bring in a lesser guy and you get beat and all that money. We've seen it a million times, right, where that money just evaporates. The bottom line is whatever the choices are presented to him, he should take, you know, all things being equal, take the most money. I mean, that's, I mean, that's, I mean, it may sound like that's what they should do,

but sometimes, you know, guys don't think like that. But of course, if all things equal, you're going to get your fight at home, you're going to get your rematch clause, and you're going to make the biggest payday. So if there's an offer for, I'm making up the numbers, you're going to make, you know, $4 million to fight Lomachenko or $5 million to fight Devin Haney and everything else is equal, why aren't you taking Haney or vice versa. If it's the bigger paycheck for the Loma fight or somebody else even, take the money, man. I mean, George is a quality fighter.

He's got a young family. You know, he's got the opportunity to make the biggest fight of his career to do it at home. And, you know, if he should lose, he would have that rematch clause in his back pocket. I'm curious, Dan, I'm curious see if he actually gets the rematch clause. Like I said, it was presented to me as a non-negotiable, but like everything is going to apply in the sky. a little bit for George Cambososos to get a rematch clause. What I can see, though, and this is why I see Haney as being the most realistic option,

both for the fight itself. And if you're matrim and DeZone, you could present Cambos with like, and I'm just making this up, like a three-fight deal, where he fights Haney, he gets a comeback fight, and then he gets Ryan Garcia or somebody of that ilk. They've got some strength on, you know, in the natural golden boy side. But top break and ESPN could do the same thing. You can give him a Loma, if you don't give him a real. that's plus. They have other fighters in those weight classes. Well, what do you have a 135 that's

really appealing? At 130, yes, but at 135, I don't know. If there's guys were coming up, Burchelt, for example, they give Burchelt. They could give them, if Oscar Valdez moves up and wait, Shikor Stevenson can move up and wait. I'm just saying those are guys that are going to be in those weight classes that I agree with you that there's good options if he was going to do something with Eddie and the zone. And I'm not advocating for either one. I'm just saying that if top rank wanted to play that game, they have guys and other fights that they can offer them also in lieu of a straight rematch clause. They are the two promotion outfits that are blessed to have, you know, a good quality batch of fighters who fight, you know, anywhere from, you know,

130 to 140. Yeah, he does. I mean, it'll be interesting how they decide and what they get, but he's definitely in for a big payday one way or the other. All right. He does. Yeah, he does. He absolutely does. He won a big fight and he should cash in 100%. Let's move on to to Demetrius Andrade, who is once again facing bad options. Andrade has been ordered to face his mandatory, as mandatory as Janubek Ali Hamalay. I'm going to try to not butcher that name. I just said it over on the zone. I just call him Genebac.

Yeah, Genebec. Let's go to Genebeck right now. Who's, you know, good fighter, you know, decorated amateur, has a couple of wins over ex-title holders in Asandadam and Rob Brandt, yada, yada, yada. But it's not a big fight. And Andrade has been chasing big fights. I've been told that there have been some preliminary discussions between top rank, Nettie Hearn, about making that fight.

They have until, I think, what is it, January 20th to make a deal or else there's going to be a purse bid. Like, if I'm Demetrius Andrade, Dan, I've got to be... Cut to the chase. That fight's not happening. You don't think so? No, it's not happening. Okay. It's not happening.

Now, maybe I'll be wrong. I mean, we'll change between now and then it'll be some kind of crazy amount of money that will be put forth to make the match. I believe that he will not fight Janinebeck. He will go to 168. Perhaps, you know, look, under the rules of the WBO, he's perfectly entitled the same way Lomachenko did it, the same way Terence Crawford did it,

the same way Canelo Alvarez did it, et cetera, to go to that. I'm going to be, I want to be the number one contender in the super middleweight division because he's the champion in their middleweight division and go and try his situation there. I just don't see him fighting Janibek for a lot of different reasons.

He, again, Janimex is a good fighter, and he's real dangerous in my mind. He brings danger and no, there's, even if he wins, you don't get a boost out of it, really. It's just another guy that you beat the most people, and if you lose, it's a freaking disaster. And more significantly, it's not a huge money fight.

So there's, you know, he's done his thing at 60. He's tried to get good guys in the ring. He's beaten, you know, the second tier, let's say the Seleskis and the, you know, Liam Williams and fighters along those lines, you know, good fighters, but not at the elite level necessarily. You know, if he wants to, he's going to have to really press the issue. And if you want to do that, press the issue by making yourself the mandatory in the super middleweight division, which means Canello is in your crosshairs or he'll have to

vacate and you fight the next guy. So I just don't believe at all that that fight with Janadegh is going to happen. You're right, but you know as well as I do that. the WBO is not going to rush to make a Canelo Andrade fight or order. No, no, I'm not saying they're going to order the fight tomorrow, especially because Canello is a unified champion, and they would use their rotation system. Might have to go look and see who's next up.

All right, so, but, Dan, what does he do? If he goes to 168 in the immediate future, what does he do? Because as I look at the landscape, he kind of runs into the same problems he's got at 160, where you've got a bunch of PBC guys that probably aren't going to fight you. I mean, Caleb Plant is not going to fight you. David Benavides. has a fight on the books against David Lemieux coming up. I just don't know who we,

who's marketable up there for in 168 right now. But the same problem he has a 160. Well, hear me out. Hear me out on this one, Dan. Like, hear me on why I think he should take this fight. Oh, before you get there, we'll agree on this. He doesn't really have a lot of good options, whether he's at 160 or at 168.

No, he doesn't. He doesn't. But hear me out on 160 here because I think he beats Gena Beck. I've watched him. He's good. I think And I think Genevac would have a lot of problems with, with Andrade, like a lot of fighters have a lot of problems with Andrade. Let's say it beats Janubec.

I'd like to see him kind of take one more run at getting someone at 1-60 get in the ring with him. Like, Hyman Mungia, he's got to do something, right? At some point, I mean, he's now four fights into his middleweight run. He is, I guess, penciled in at the moment to face Demetrius Ballard. I don't know what that fight gets in him. Like Ballad looked terrible in his last time out. And that's just another kind of stay-bizzy fight while they just pleading.

lead with Golofkin to to fight him at some point in the middle of next year. And then maybe Charlo doesn't get the Canelo fight and maybe we can revisit that or we got we got so many maybes here. I've lost track of the maybes, baby. You're right. No, you're right. But like I don't did. I don't know what you go up to 168 and you're kind of doing the same thing.

You're looking around. You got an empty room at 160 with nobody wanted to fight. You go up to 168 and like, who's up there? You know, if he goes to 168. And he asked the WBO to be the mandatory, which they will appoint him as based on their rules. And as I mentioned, what they've done time and again for other other champions moving up. Oscar Valdez, you know, opted for the WBC title, but he could have had the same situation, you know, in the WBO. I mean, all these guys that have done that.

So he can make himself the mandatory in that division. And then the ball is in Canelo sport. If Canello decides to defend against him, that's a big fight for Andrade, obviously. if Canello doesn't and vacates. Now, I'm not saying that Canelo is somehow scared to fight Andre. But Andre's talking point would be, hey, I was Canelo Aversus, man, and he didn't, he didn't fight me. He gave up the title to avoid me. You know, there's some currency in that a little bit, and he would get to fight for another title.

I just, I just believe that Janibek is a dangerous enough opponent who brings so little to the table from a recognition standpoint and from a financial standpoint that it just, if I was his, if I was Demetri's, Andrade's manager. You know, if I morphed into Ed Ferris tomorrow, I'd be like, we're not fighting this guy unless the offer is obscene. We got better things to do. And again, I have huge respect for Andre's talent, but he's not getting any younger. And you don't take on that kind of dangerous guy for short money when you don't have to. That's just the bottom line.

You go to the higher way class and you make your noise there. Do you think, Dan, do you think it's a bad look for Canelo if he picks Charles over Andrade in this next fight because, like, you, if you want to kind of connect some dots here, like, Canello has, and look, I'll never say Canelo ducks anybody, never does. The guy fights everybody and is fearless in the ring. But, you know, Demetrius Andrade was a title holder at 154 with the WBO belt. He gave up that belt to go up to 160. Canello dropped back down to fight Liam Smith, who won that title, as I believe was a vacant belt at the time.

at 160, there have been numerous opportunities in the last three years to face Demetrius Andrade. It's a very makeable fight or was a very been makeable fight at the time for Canello. He didn't do it. And so if he picks Charlo, who has as flimsy a middleweight resume as Demetrius Andrade has, like, what does that mean? I mean, that is not, in my mind, the best look. Listen, I think Andre's resume at middleweight is better than Charlo's if you ask me. I would agree.

I was trying to like, I was just trying to kind of, you know, because people always accuse me to being pro-Andrade and pro-tra. I'm not, or anti-trail. I'm not. I just want to see the damn fight. When you bring that up, all I think about is being there in the press conference after his victory against Billy Joe Saunders when Andre sort of crashed things and what their back and forth was. So I don't want to curse and I don't want to. Horrible fighter. Hey, you get the F out of here. You know, who do you fight with?

Payday, payday. But everybody's looking for a payday with Canella. Like that's every single guy that gets in the ring with them. The Cruiserweight is going to be looking forward. Dimitri Beavall's going to be looking forward. Everybody wants it. I'd be perfectly happy if Canello for two things. I'd like to see André get a big opportunity. He's, you know, I'm not saying his like, you know, he's finished as a fighter, but he's, he's closing on on the end of his prime years. 34, I believe. Say again? He's 34, I believe, yeah. Whatever the age is, but he has not had that big defining fight. And, you know, I've made the point that what he needs, you know, he, and I, maybe I'm dating myself as far as how far I,

go back and covering boxing. He reminds me so much of the plight of Winky Wright, who was in his same, you know, was a middleweight and a junior middleweight. I covered all of Winky's career and just know the struggles that he went through where he was a guy that was this tremendous boxer without a big fan following,

you know, with a Southpaw style that wasn't always the most exciting, not a big knockout puncher, good personality, but not over the top. and just could not get the top guys to fight him. And finally, Shane Mosley, who was one of the pound for pound best in boxing at that time, a popular fighter with a decent fan following, finally he was like, you know what, I'll fight the guy. You know, we're going to fight for the undisputed title at junior middleweight back when it was three belts that made it undisputed.

And he gave him the fight. And I always respected Shane for that. And he lost the fight, fair and swear. And they fought him again in the rematch because he had a rematch clause and he exercised the option. And Winkie beat him again. and it was because Shane Mosey gave him that fight. He had to put Winkie on the run he went on. So we beat Shane twice.

He beat, you know, other good fighters. He beat Felix Trinidad in a devastating, you know, one-sided performance. And at the end of the day, Winky Wright wound up in the Hall of Fame. And it's all because Shane Mosey gave him the opportunity. And I'm not saying that he would beat Canelo Alvarez or anything like that. What I'm saying is I wish there was a fighter out there of a star level like a Shane Mosey was to Winkie Wright. That was of that way to Demetra's Andre and at least give him the opportunity. If he loses, so be it if he wins.

You know what? You did the right thing, and you probably get the rematch anyway. And like you said, Canello is not afraid at the fight guys. I would like to see him fight that fighter. I'd like to see Canello versus André. I don't think Andrade is a boring fighter like people say. And I'll say this. And again, I'm not on Demetrius's payroll.

I don't have a stake in this. I have no dog in the hunt. But I'm going to say this. All those people out there that say how boring Demetrius Andre is or he doesn't do this or he doesn't do that. All I know is this. Go look at his last probably six fights. Let's say, and you called a bunch of. him on his own so you might have a better memory than i do on it how many guys that he he's free first

all he's got some knockouts in there uh number two he's got like 11 knockdowns something like that over the course of his last several fights when he won the middleweight belt against conan dockway dropped him like four times drop selisky uh lukeeler you know he's dropped keeler um coming off uh you know against quigley who we looked uh you know scored a legit knockout against and had him down i mean so I'm not sure what he's got to, and he's got a good personality. Like, you know, he can talk like he did when he came into Canelo's press coverage. So, you know, to me, he deserves the opportunity. And I'd like to see Canello give it to him.

I'm not saying he's going to. But if you go to Super Middleweight and you, and you at least force the issue to some as best as you can as the mandatory, you never know. Maybe Canello will take him up on it. I mean, it doesn't look like that. But what, what do you have to lose? Nothing. If he's not fighting you now and you become the mandatory and he still doesn't fight you,

at least you make him vacate the title, you still get the fight for the next belt. By the way, he's not unbeatable. Like, he's a good fighter. He's vulnerable. Like, I look at Jaime Mungia. The Mungia I've seen the last couple of fights, high volume puncher, excellent chin. Good chance to beat him. Like, I don't, this is not like a guy, like Winky Wright was really tough to beat in his prime.

Like, he was just unorthodox and he could, he just made it. ugly in there at times. Demetrius Andrade is very beatable. You've seen guys hurt him. Liam Williams hurt him during a recent fight. And he doesn't throw a ton of punches. So if you can out volume him, you got a chance to win a decision. So I don't, I think guys should be eager to get in the ring with him and collect a big paycheck and a middleweight title along the way. All right. Let's go back to lightweight for a second, Dan, talk about Ryan Garcia. Specifically, a matchup between Ryan Garcia. and Tank Davis.

Eric Gomez was on this podcast last week. He kind of detailed his version of the negotiations between Garcia and Tank, which basically amounts to that there were talks. Then Ryan had his mental health issues. He had his injury issues. And those talks were basically dormant from there. It does sound like both sides are interested in this fight. Now, there are obstacles that need to be overcome, most specifically.

how do you do a pay-per-view type of deal? Like, how does that work between DeZone, which is, as you've reported, very close to finalizing a new deal with Golden Boy and Jervantes Davis, who has a deal or is fighting exclusively at this point on Showtime? But so when you look at the landscape and how it is, like how optimistic are you that will see Ryan Garcia and Tank Davis this year?

I know from talking to Ryan just in the last, you know, a week or so extensively that he really wants that fight. And his, look, it's not going to be next. His next fight's going to be April 2nd. And what he wants to do in that April 2nd fight is to fight Isaac Cruz. That's a fight that he desperately wants and he's not shy about it. He says, I want that fight for different reasons. One, I think it's a good fight.

Two, I think I win. And three, because I want guys in the media, boxing fans. I want them to compare my performance against Isaac Cruz against the performance that Gervanta Tank Davis had against Isaac Cruz. Tank won that fight, but it was very close. A lot of people thought the tank lost the fight. Ryan himself told me that he knows what the fan reaction was, that he personally thought that Tank did win the fight by a round or two.

But nonetheless, he feels like he, by taking on Isaac Cruz and believes he'll put in a much better performance, will help raise the fan interest in making a fight between Ryan and Tank. He says, I've been trying to build the fight between myself and Tank Davis now for the last, you know, a year or so, maybe even longer. And that's the fight that he really wants and that fighting crews would be a way to sort of move towards that, towards that situation. If you're Chirvada Davis, you know, who was, you know, becoming a significant, not becoming, he is a significant economic power in the, in the sport at this moment with his regularity on pay-per-view and showtime behind him. And also a very exciting fighter, obviously very talented. That's a, that's a terrific matchup.

I would love to see that. A lot of people would make Ryan Garcia a heavy underdog in that fight. I was going, you know, in a nice way because he's my pal, O'Henard LRB. We had our little back and forth on Twitter about that. And I was making the point. I'm not picking Ryan to win or tank to win. I'm just saying, I want to see it. I don't know who wins that fight.

You know, you want to tell me you think tank wins? Okay, no problem. You tell me that you think Ryan's got a good chance because of his height and his length and his power and his body work. You know, okay, I can work with that also. So the bottom line is, you know, don't give me your nonsense about who's going to win, how it's going to win. You know, you prove it when you get in the ring and the two fighters do battle. And that's a very attractive marketable fight. As far as the business side goes, you know, there's ways to make fights happen.

Obviously, if you're doing Tank Davis against Ryan Garcia, it's going to be a pay-per-view. Now, my information is that in Ryan Garcia's promotional contract with Golden Boy, he does have an out from whatever his broadcaster is, if it's his own, you know, streaming, that he can do a pay-per-view. And so there would be a contractual way around that is my understanding. Maybe DeZone, who has talked about the possibility of becoming involved in pay-per-view for the most special fights, somehow is involved in a pay-per-view. I just know I want to see the fight. I don't care.

You know, no disrespect to you and your broadcast partners. But if it's the Showtime guys calling the fight, no problem. If it's you guys on DeZone calling the fight, no problem. I just turn the volume down anyway. Let me see the fight. As most people do. There we go. I would say this, Dan, like, I mean, honestly, people think I care.

Like, if Ryan Garcia fights Tank Davis, I'll either be sitting, it's a difference of how many feet away from the ring I'll sit. I'll be at that fight one way or the other. It's simple as that. It's an excellent fight. If this fight doesn't happen, to me, it's because the promoters fucked it up. Because, like, I have yet to meet one fan, and I'm sure you're the same way, that gives a damn who, what network or what pay-per-view streaming, whatever,

a fight is on. They don't. They want to see the actual fight and don't care who is calling it or what network gets being broadcast on as long as the actual fight

is happening. Now, it's pretty basic. Dan, it's pretty basic. You can, like, I've heard the same things about Ryan's contract. I do wonder if in the renegotiation

with Golden Boy, if some of that got cleaned up because I can't, and I don't have any direct insight into this, but I can't fathom the zone voluntarily giving up Ryan Garcia.

Like he is, a huge attraction for them. So I wonder about that. But you can make joint pay-per-views. It works. It just happened with Fury Wilder. It's happened in previous fights in the past. They are, it's a doable thing. So I would love to see Gervante, if he fights, Raleigh Romero, whoever it may be in the first quarter of 2022, Ryan Esau Cruz, get together after that in a midsummer, end of summer, maybe even his late September fight between these two guys would be action-packed. And if you got to involve two networks, do it. Just do it. Do whatever you have to do to make that fight happen. Tank Davis against Ryan Garcia is a huge fight for a lot of reasons.

Number one, fans would flock to it because it's an exciting fight in the ring. Southern California sold out crowd, wherever it may be. Los Angeles sold out crowd. I mean, honestly, you put it in New York. It doesn't matter. It's the kind of fight where you pick a boxing hotbed or a place where there's a lot of fights, you know what, you put that fight in London, the fight would sell out. It doesn't make a difference

where you put the fight. It's going to sell out. And they both have divergent fan bases. You know, they attract the different crowds from each other is in addition to the diehard boxing fans. You know, my old pal Mark Taffitt from HBO days once told me when we were talking pay-per-view business,

talked about how certain fights attract certain audiences. But when you take two fighters, and we were specifically talking, I think it must have been around the De La Jolla Mayweather fight. Why that fight did the kind of business as it did. Remember, at that time, before Mayweather fought Pachiao and Connor McGregor,

for a long time, Mayweather versus De La Jolla was the number one selling paper review ever. And why was that? Because they were both big names. Now, neither guy, Tank Davis, or Ryan Garcia, as big as Floyd and Oscar, you know, were at that time. But here's the point, though. Because they both drew from different fan bases,

and they were popular figures in mainstream to a degree. It mined those fans across the mainstream, wide and far. It also went very deep into their most hardened fan bases. You know, a lot of the black fans, urban fans with Mayweather and the Latino fans that were diehards for Oscar deep, deep, deep into those particular groups, as well as far and wide of just casual fans. Ryan and Tank is like De La Jolla Mayweather at light. I don't think

it doesn't do that kind of business, obviously, but they will mine from those same groups of people and go far and wide. It's a can't miss economic blockbuster for everybody involved. And inside the boxing ring, it's probably a damn good fight. And I think that Ryan Garcia

has no problem doing Tank Davis fight. I talked to him for 35 minutes a few days ago, and he spent a lot of time talking about how much he wants that fight. And by the way, you know, So, Javanta Davis, I don't believe that for two seconds, he's not scared to fight anybody. This is a dude that'll fight whoever. You know, he's been fighting the guys that Mayweather Promotions lines up for him. Him and Ryan Garcia is a big ass fight, period.

End of the story. Biggest fight in the division, one of the biggest fights in boxing. I agree. I agree. And I, one of the reasons I have some cautious optimism is that if you're Mayweather promotions, you kind of got to look at the last year as maybe something of a warning. Like, Jervante Davis was, I mean, he was a close fight with Mario Barrios before he knocked him out.

It was nip and tuck with Esau Cruz. You know, Raleigh Romero, if that's the guy he winds up fighting whoever it may be, like the point is, Jervante Davis is not unbeatable. And if he gets beat by someone like Barrios or Cruz or Romero, all of a sudden, the value of a Ryan Garcia fight or a fight against anybody at 135 goes down. Not, doesn't bottom out. Like losses don't destroy a guy, no question.

But I would think that they would want to get him in a huge, money fight before something like that happens, before you potentially lose a fight that could cause your, that could take the shine off a big fight like Ryan Garcia. I totally agree. The bottom line is that these guys are at a certain level where if they're fighting the ice, and it's not just Ryan Garcia and Tank Davis. We could use the argument, whether it's Andre and Charlo or it's, you know, Canelo versus better be ever, you know, pick a, pick a fight that you believe is a big fight.

if the best guys fight each other, somebody obviously is going to lose unless it's some kind of draw or a no contest or something. As long as they both give their effort and make it a good fight, they don't lose when they lose on their record. I mean, maybe it steps them back a little bit

in terms of their next fight, a little less money, whatever, but in the long scheme of things, it doesn't destroy your career. Look, use Oscar De La Jolla as the example. Oscar lost some huge fights. When Oscar lost certain fights, when he came back,

he came back even bigger than ever. You know, after he lost to Bernard Hopkins, when he comes back and he fights to my orga, it was almost a million pay-per-view fight, and he won another world title. He was never as popular then as he was after having been a superstar and lost in a fight, and he was able to bounce back.

Now, that's the extreme example. But look at all the great fighters that have taken losses. Do you think that it diminished Manny Pacquiao because he lost to Juan Manuel Marquez or he lost even to Floyd Mayweather, and it didn't diminish him at all? he was still a hugely popular fighter making, you know, huge amounts of money, pick any of the stars.

Did it damage Ricky Hatton's ability to connect with fans and make big purses after he lost to Floyd Mayweather? Of course not. He got some big fights after that also. He'd go on right down the line. I mean, it's just the notion that you can't lose a fight is so ridiculous. Now, if you go out there and you lose to a complete tomato can, that's a problem. But if you're losing to the best fighters in the sport, and if you're taking these guys

and matching them up with each other, which is what we want to see, you know, take my money kind of events, there are no losers that you give the public and the boxing fans what they are interested in. The fighters get what they say they want, which is to test themselves against the best. They make their biggest paydays, which in turn means that the arenas and the casinos

and the promoters and the networks, they make their money and get their viewers and do all the things they need to do or their bottom line. I just don't understand why it doesn't happen more often. but this is one of those fights where both guys seem like they want it. The fans want it. The press wants it. No network would turn it down.

No arena would turn it down. You know, it just, it's maybe I'm missing something, but it ain't rocket science. If they can't make a deal because of any type of network issues, let's all go home. Like that's, let's all go home. I don't think that would be the case. I don't think because Showtime, you know, they have shown in the past that they have worked with HBO in two pay-per-views as well as when they had combined, it wasn't a pay-per-view fight, but they did Klitsko versus Joshua together. Stephen Espinoza, who runs Showtime Sports,

is an open-minded guy and a good business person and a lawyer himself and understands the business as well as anybody. If he felt like, you know, this was a makeable fight, I do not believe that he was going to, you know, he would be the impediment to not allowing that fight to happen. And my experience in dealing with the folks at the zone is that, you know, they, I think, also believe that the rising tide, you know, lifts all ships. If you ever look at like the Zones, you know, Twitter feed, they don't just tweet about the Zon fights. They tweet about boxing, you know, at large, whatever it is. I mean, whoever it is. So, you know, I think that's the right attitude.

And, you know, I'm not saying it gets done in two seconds and they're all going to sing songs and hold hands. But I also don't believe it would be a situation where it would not be makeable. And if you look at the partners that the zone works with, which is mainly Golden Boy and Matrum and Eddie Hearn. Both of those outfits have shown a very, very open-minded nature to make fights with other promoters. Eddie has made fights with all kinds of promoters. Golden Boy has done the same, whether it's on the zone or cross-promotion. They both made fights with Top Rank over the years. You know, the one that's been a little bit tougher to do it with has been PBC, but Top-Rank, you know, may have cracked that code to a certain degree.

They were able to make two fights between Tyson Fury and Deonté Wilder. they were not involved in the first fight. They were able to recently do an event with Terrence Crawford and Sean Porter. So, you know, it's like you said, Chris, when there's a fight that's out there and the fans want it, it doesn't mean shit. But if the fighters want it and the promoters want it, the fights get made. Yeah, I agree. I hope that fight ultimately gets made. I mean, Joe Markovsky was on this podcast a few weeks ago.

And one of the things we talked about was how, you know, dipping your toe into pay-per-view, they hope will help be a facilitator to making bigger fights. There are some fighters that want to be on pay-per-view. If DeZone is involved in it, maybe that can, you know, move the ball in that direction. All right. Let's talk about some welter weights. One welterweight, actually. Actually, we got a couple of welterweight. Let's start with Keith Thurman at the top.

Keith Thurman returns on February 5th against Mario Barrios, his Thurman's first fight since losing the Manny Pacquiao in the summer of 2019. It's just his third fight since 2017, which is wild, Dan. Like this guy who was on top of the welterweight division in 2016 and 7, has fought three times since then. Thurman's talked a big game about getting back on top of the 147-pound division. He's 33 years old. Do you think he can do it?

You know, it's possible. I mean, you know, he's not the kind of guy that's, you know, the reason for the layoffs, it's not like he was in jail. It's not like he was, you know, strung out on drugs or, you know, in a rehab facility for drinking too much or something like that. You know, by all accounts, he's taken care of himself. it's because of injuries. He's had problems mainly with his hand,

you know, with his, I believe his elbow. So, and those are things you just can't control. And then, you know, in every sport, whether it's baseball, football, basketball, boxing, you name it soccer, hockey. You know, if you're injured, you have to heal them. You have to get them better. You're useless to yourself and to your team.

In the case of boxing, it's an individual sport. But the point is he's had those issues. They're not fake. They're real. I hope he's over them. If he is, then I think he can come back. My issue with Thurman, who I've known a long time, covered his whole career, I'm just not entirely sure how much desire he has to still be in the grind and be a truly

active boxer. It's one thing to come back and grab a big payday for a fight here and there and then disappear for eight or nine or ten months or a year. You know, I don't get the feeling from Keith that, and I hope he proves me wrong. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I don't get the feeling that as hard as in it to the level that it once was. like a Canello, for example, who still goes to the gym every day practically,

you know, even, you know, when he doesn't have a fight schedule and is just living that life. And, you know, Keith has made a lot of money. Keith has won a lot of big fights. And, you know, at this stage of his life and, you know, having gotten married and traveled the world and seen different places, you know, maybe boxing isn't number one on his priority list at this moment in time.

And there's nothing wrong with that. But if he puts his mind to it and it's something he truly wants, from a physical point of view and a talent and muscle memory and all that, I don't see why there's any reason why he can't still be back near the top of the welterweight division. You know, he's, he's already beaten some of those top guys. He makes good fights. And he's a good, he's a very good fighter.

So if he wants to put his mind to it, I think he can still do it. But I question whether he has the desire to do so. Yeah, I have the same questions. And I remember being down at Thurman's training camp before his fight with Pachiao down in St. Petersburg, Dan Birmingham's gym And I remember being around them for a few days And look, he was working hard But like you have been in these camps too Dan

Like sometimes you're in a camp And it's like you can see a guy is like willing to go through hell To get himself in the right condition I just didn't I didn't get that vibe off of Thurman Kind of being around him For for those few days He's got to look Dan Birmingham is an excellent trainer Keith Thurman is still a very good fighter at 33

And even with all those being said said, he should be able to beat Amario Barrios, who I think is just okay, especially in his first fight moving up to Welterweight. But then, if you're looking at Spence, Crawford, the two guys, he's probably going to be eyeballing, especially in the case of Crawford, like, the killer instinct is still there in those guys. The edge is still there with those guys. And I don't know if Thurman can match that. I think Crawford, it feels to me like Crawford could be first up. I'm not sure we're going to get Spence Crawford before, you know, maybe the end of the year. you're going down the road I was exactly thinking, which is if Arrow Spence is going to be fighting Ugas come the spring, which is what they're planning and what is going to happen.

And Thurman is able to come out of the Barrios fight with a win and not be back on the injured list. And Crawford, who is still a free agent, is looking for a fight that's marketable, that's pay-per-view caliber. And at this point, frankly, Fawkes has shown a willingness to pretty much do whatever on pay-per-view. literally Crawford Crawford versus Thurman on a pay-per-view basis if Thurman is coming off of a good performance and

his comeback, that's an attractive fight. Again, I'm not saying it's doing a million buys, but if you're a boxing fan and you also believe that, or they tell you frankly straight out ahead of time that the winner of that fight is getting the shot at Spence, because remember, you know,

Errol Spence and Thurman have gone back and forth where he wouldn't give Errol the shot and then Arrow was champion, and he kind of looked the other way and wasn't interested in fighting Spence because he had other things to do. The point I'm making is if Errol, or Ugas, frankly, whoever wins that fight, but more if it's Erl Spence, if he wins the fight against Ugas, now he's got three of the titles. In the meantime, you can put together the attract of fight with Crawford and Thurman as a pay-per-view and say to your fans and to your people, hey, the winner that fight, we're going to go later

in the year for undisputed. Now you got yourself a pretty big event, and it's a good fight. Thurman can talk. Crawford maybe hasn't always been the most media and fan-friendly in terms of his personality, even though I think he's a good guy. But he was a lot better in terms of talking it up and getting it out there when he was getting ready to fight Sean Porter in the last fight. So that to me, that seems like a very reasonable and frankly doable path. Spence and Eugas come that March-April timeframe. You have Keith Thurman fighting Barrio. in February. Again, he's got to come out on injured. Can he have a quick turnaround? Can he get back,

you know, in say June, July, whatever, summer fight with Crawford and then close the year with a big megafite between the winners? And that is my final question, Dan. Do you believe we will get Spence versus Crawford before the end of 2022? I'd like to hope, yes, but if I had to actually put money on it and put up stakes, I would say no. Now, that said, I don't think that it means that it doesn't happen like this time, you know, like say the first quarter of the year after. I just think that sometimes, you know, things get played out in terms of the schedule and it takes time to put these fights in the right spot.

You know, I'm also skeptical of, you know, how often these guys are going to get into the ring. But I do think, we all know that it's the end game fight for both him, both fighters, at least in the welterweight division. It makes sense. It's the biggest money for either guy. So if PBC is going to try to do some kind of business with Terrence Crawford, they're not going to just do a one-fight deal or even a two-fight deal and put them in, you know, in the first fight with Spence. You do it, you know, they look to build it a little bit, even though you and I know

it doesn't really need, you know, building at this point. That's what everybody's been asking for for two years. But the plan is there to put on some attract the fights to get to the point where you can have the fight for the undisputed welterweight championship of the world. And if what I just laid out could happen. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping. the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for you. for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what? went down and tried to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the

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I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, We get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it.

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I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Happen and what you said that you like also, it makes perfect sense. They're all makeable fights. They're all doable. You know, I don't think the athletes are going to reject those matches as far as the competition. It all comes down to what's on the table financially and whether it's worth. whether they believe it's worth their time and effort from a financial point of view. But from an athletic and a competition and an excitement point of view,

who would not want to see that three-fight plan I just mentioned? There's nobody else. You know, Spence fights Ugas and Crawford fights Thurman and both them win. What the hell else would they do before the end of the year? Like that's it. Well, you're stuck on the end of the year. I'm not talking about a fixed. But you fight one time during the year?

Like, I mean, it happens. I mean, that's the way these guys do. Crawford fought one time. time last year, you know. Again, whether it's in the calendar year of 2022 or it's the first fight of either guy in 2023, I'm not interested in the calendar. I'm interested that it's next after whatever they do coming up. I mean, but he would take what we're laying out would take Thurman. He would have to fight twice this year and he hasn't done that, you know, for a few years. Yeah, that's unfortunate. Dan, good stuff, man. You can subscribe to Dan's newsletter.

You should. It's over on substack. Follow Dan on Twitter at Dan Rayfield 1. Good to catch up, man. We'll do it again. All right, Chris. I appreciate it. Hopefully I'll see you at one of these big fights down the road. When we come back, my conversation with Jake Paul. Career Builder is made for people who have that thing. You know, those superpowers that make you good at your job, the skills you bring to work. And Career Builder knows those skills make you right for other jobs too. Higher paying jobs with benefits. Jobs you never thought of trying. Are you a people person? Work from home as a customer service rep.

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To place your first bet risk-free, just sign up with promo code boxing and make every fight night mean more with the Fandul Sportsbook app. All right, Jake Paul is here, undefeated boxer just weeks removed from his knockout win over Tyron Woodley in a rematch of a summertime fight against Woodley. Jake finished the year at 3 and 0 to run his record up to 5 and 0 as a pro boxer. I recently wrote about Jake over at Sports Illustrated as our breakout boxer of the year. He is a polarizing guy. There's no doubt about it,

but he has made a pretty significant impact on boxing. And Jake, I want to start there. Like you start this year, and what were your expectations in January of 2021 about what this year would be like for you in boxing? Not what they were, to be completely honest. You know, I knew I wanted to fight three times. That was my number one goal on my list. But to think, you know, all the things that happened in the fashion that it all happened, it's just sort of mind-blowing.

But that's what I worked for, you know, and I, I set big goals and big aspirations, and I just wanted to go into the ring and knock out every single person that I fought. So can you take me back to sort of how this boxing dream kind of started for you? I know your brother, of course, was the first guy to do it when he fought KSI a couple of years ago. But for you, how did jumping into the pro ranks take hold? Yeah, we started at the same time.

and Dejy and I both fought on that same night as well and just fell in love with it. You know, when I beat Dejy in Manchester in front of, you know, his home crowd, it was just the best feeling in the world. And then just wanted to continue my career. And then when I TKO'd Gib in the first round of my first professional fight, I loved fighting with the 10-ounce gloves way better. And it was just an addicting feeling. that I've never wanted to end or stop since that moment.

But boxing in general, was it something you were always attracted to? Was there something to push you towards that sport above others? You know, I, in high school, stopped playing football just to focus on wrestling because I like, you know, the individual sport better because I didn't have to rely on other people who maybe weren't working as hard as me. so I can just focus on myself and I'm such a hard worker that I'm going to get a lot better and I can take matters into my own hands and control, you know, really my training and how hard I go and the time and effort that I put into it.

And so I think that's part of the reason I love boxing and, you know, I've always just been a fight fan. And in many ways, it's similar to wrestling. It's wrestling, but you can punch people essentially, which is way more, way more fun. What do you remember about the first time you stepped into a boxing gym? Did it come naturally to you? Did it feel uncomfortable? What do you remember about that?

Yeah, it came naturally to me. I remember the first thing the coach had us do was jumping rope. And I just remember my legs like burning like crazy because it was. It wasn't something that I was used to at first. But I always felt like powerful. Like I knew even when I was like hitting the bag or hitting the midst that I had a lot of power. And I just had to like refine it. And the first time I ever sparred, the coach was like, well, what the hell?

Like you've never sparred before. Like I can't believe it. I can't believe it. because I actually like TKOed the first guy that I sparred. Granted, he wasn't very good. They put me in with like a super low level guy, but I still TKOed him in my very first spar session. You know, over the last year or so,

it seems like you've taken boxing more seriously. You brought a BJ Flores, among others, to work with you. You went away to camp. The seriousness with which you've approached this sport. How has that evolved in the last year or so? You know, with each fight, I gained a little bit more confidence. And with each fight, I realized how far I could take this even more, and even more, and even more.

And I knew that the level of competition was going to go up with each fight. And so I had to arise to the occasion. Otherwise, I would lose. And so I guess, you know, basically what that all centers around is not wanting to lose. and be able to retire from this sport undefeated. And people were expecting me to lose. Like, I have a lot of haters, right? Let's be, let's, you know, the elephant in the room, I'm very polarizing.

So if people hate me, then they're still going to tune in to watch the fight, but they're going to get satisfaction if they see me lose. And I was just driven and motivated by that. Did you expect to be this polarizing among the, boxing community because I work with Sergio Mora, former junior middleweight champion who is, I mean, for being honest, very anti you

what you and other YouTube people are doing in box. Do you expect to be this polarizing amongst that group of people? I didn't know what to expect, you know, but I think more and more now people are seeing you know, the good that I do for

the sport and the positive impact that I'm bringing it. you know, you just have to put stuff in front of people's faces. Otherwise, they won't ever believe it. And I guess that's what I've done now. And that's what I'll continue to do is just show and show and show because actions speak way louder than words. And yeah, I saw Sergio's comments.

I believe this morning they came out or something that you guys were all like debating back and forth. And I was just like, this guy, I feel bad for him, you know? I feel bad for his ignorance and the fact that he has to live with such a negative mindset. Because when you take a look at all the fans that I'm bringing and what I'm doing for women's boxing, you know, my charity, we just raised another million dollars for my charity to renovate gyms across the world to get more kids involved in boxing and just bring a different audience. This was a dying sport.

And people like Mike Tyson have said that, they should be thanking. you know, people like me and my brother who are innovating this whole entire thing and giving us awards. So it is what it is. But I think the crowd is slowly starting to turn. Well, I think there are a couple of things. And I said this to Sergio and I've said this to others in the last few weeks and months. Number one, the people that are calling for you to fight a world champion kind of need to look back at their own records when they were. only four or five in. I brought up Sergio's fights against guys like Warren Kronberger and guys that had no wins

on their resume. So it's not like a guy five fights into his pro career should be fighting at a world championship level. The other, and you mentioned this, and it's true, is the visibility that you're bringing to other more, quote, traditional box. I've been a boxer reporter for some time. Now, I'll be honest, I don't know who the hell Montana Love was. was before he fought on your undercard.

I didn't. And he gets a win there, and that turns into a multi-fight deal with Matro. Amanda Serrano, you can't argue at this point that Serrano against Katie Taylor is going to be a bigger fight in large part because of the visibility that you've brought her. I'm not sure if that was your plan or not, but increasing the number of eyeballs on the more mainstream fighters in your card, I think that's been accomplished. No, for sure that, you know, that's part of the plan. And that's why I created most valuable promotions is, you know, we're not just going to sign Amanda Serrano.

We're going to shine a spotlight on as many fighters as possible. And that's what this is about is it's not just about me. It's about the trickle-down effect of what this creates and the opportunity that this creates for people like Amanda Serrano who deserve it more than anyone in the world. and what that is doing for women's boxing and getting them all paid more. And it's all little things, but I've only been really at this for 18 months. So if this is what I've done in 18 months, then where is the roof here? I see, I don't see one. And I have a saying on my mirror.

It says, remember where you started. Now imagine how far you can go. So I'm just getting started with all of these things. you know, a year or two from now, Sergio, your partner, will be eating his own words by saying, I'm not good for boxing. And I believe one day he will come up to me and shake my hand and apologize. I said to him, there's probably going to be like a female problem bot at Serrano Taylor, which is only going to make, you know, that fight. That fight probably went from small room at MSG to big room, in part because of the visibility Serrano guts. I mean, Katie's got a lot of fans on a round,

own. She's been a main eventer here in the U.S. and elsewhere before. But I'm just actually curious, why was it Amanda Serrano that you chose to kind of embrace the way you did and make her the co-main on your last two fights? Yeah, I mean, it's just about this right place, right time.

And she's sort of been around since my first pro fight, so I've always like known who she was. And we wanted her to fight on the undercard of Tyron Woodley. and we were chatting with her and I was like hearing her tell these stories about how much she was getting paid and how she you know mani packeow is the only person to win more championships

than her in different weight divisions and i'm just like wait so mani pack yo got you know made hundreds of millions of dollars off fighting and here a manis serrano is just as good as mani packia on the female side of things and she's getting paid 20,000 30,000 I was like this is right, what can we do to help here? This girl is a superstar, and she's just super nice, and it was right when we were creating most valuable promotion, so it was just perfect timing. And Nekisa and I, my partner, most valuable

emotions are like, yeah, this is the perfect person to help here. The punch you hit Woodley with to knock him out, you know, you clearly heard from some boxing people saw Claresa Shields tweeted out that it was a lucky punch. Close your eyes and land that punch. What's your counter to that?

You know, I know Al Bernstein pointed out during the broadcast that there was real technique there. There was a faint and it was going up over the top. From your perspective, like what went into that shot in particular? Yeah. So, you know, my rebuttal to people saying that is I've done that to every single person I fought. So it's not luck. I've knocked out everyone in violent fashion in one way or another. and my power is only increasing

and I set up the shot you watch the whole sequence I fake I see his hand come flying down I fake again go to the body and then bring it up top with all my power and brought my hips through and it's not lucky like look at all the people

that Tyron Woodley has been in there with and he's never been killed like that you've been a disruption in boxing, no question. Do you think you can be enough of a disruption to change boxing, to change the way it does business, which has not worked in terms of growing the sport? I think so.

It's going to be really hard to change the business model of boxing, but I think at least what I'm showing is how someone can do it. And I think what I'm showing is these fighters don't necessarily have to build their records up to 20 and 0. or 25 and 0 before they could start to take on higher level opposition. You can go and do your eight-round fight sooner. You can go and do six-round fights sooner. You can perform on these bigger stages at a younger age because about boxers,

you know, how long is their career going to be? And how to self-promote first and foremost? And these young kids need to get on TikTok and Snapchat and Instagram stories and Twitter and be promoting themselves and not to rely on a promoter just to do that. You talked about how kind of careers can be shorter. How long do you really see your career in boxing going? You know, it's so interesting because at the beginning of the year,

I was like, oh, I'll go 10 and no and then retired. But in a blink of an eye, all of a sudden I'm 5 and 0. and it feels like I'm just, I feel like I just finished my rookie season and I just finished like chapter one of the book and there's so much more left to read. And I'm young, I'm motivated and I'm only getting better and better and better. So it's weird to try and map it out, but I definitely want to go undefeated and then retire. So whether that's 10 fights, 15 fights, We'll see, I guess. Is there a bucket list fight for you?

I created a, I tweeted like my bucket list. It's like, I remember that. Mike Tyson is probably up there. I think that would be like the coolest thing in the world. And then I think Canelo is on there. and I think that can happen, you know, towards the end of my career when I'm sort of in peak physical condition and have all that experience under my belt.

Do you think that's a good idea? I mean, if it's biting off a lot, then there's biting off a Canelo-type opponent. I think it's a great idea. I think it's probably one of the best ideas in boxing right now. You know, I see this yieldrum guy, and I bring up this example a lot, the Turkish warrior,

who goes in there and fights Canelo for like three rounds, doesn't throw a single punch and then quits in the corner. And he's a world champion or whatever, but no, what he is, he's someone who choked under the spotlight and couldn't perform. I'm built for the spotlight, and I'm most certainly more powerful, faster, and will be in better condition

and have had the spotlight my whole entire life more so than Yildrum and all those categories. So I know I can do better than that guy for sure. And he walked away. That wouldn't be hard. That wouldn't be hard to do better than Yildrum did in that fight. You know, the quote-unquote, more traditional boxes that are out there looking for fights with you, whether it is Tommy Fury, Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.

Are those types of fighters in your future in 2022? Yeah, you know, the Julio Caesar Chavez or, I don't know, is that how you say his name? Chavez Jr., yeah. Chavez Jr. It's interesting. I like that fun a lot because silence is the critics. You know, he was a former world champion, and I know I could beat him. So, and you look at his record, it's like 50 wins or something.

and I don't even know the losses, but it's a good record. So that challenge excites me, and I'm down. And this is what people understand. They say, even after I knocked out Woodie, they're all like, Floyd a real boxer. I'm like, you guys, I tried, and he dropped out of the fight two weeks before. So I want to fight a real boxer, like newsflash, and I'm going to just have some fucking patience.

And Tommy Fury was quick to, you know, take to the media and say he'd be ready to go when. whatever, you're ready to go. Of course. You know, he wants the, he wants the payday. But, you know, I've said it before. I don't want to take the fight with him. He doesn't deserve it.

And I'd rather fight Tyson. You know, I would want Tyson to come down to Cruiserweight. And that would be a bigger fight. So I'd rather fight Tyson or his dad. You know, his dad, John, did a better job of promoting the fight than Tommy did. So I'll fight his brother or his dad before I fight Tommy. Last question for you. I brought up at the top kind of the visibility you're creating for some of these other boxers.

Do you see this most valuable promotions company outlasting your boxing career? Do you think you'll be a promoter as you get older and get away from getting in the ring? Yes, I will always be involved in the sport of boxing, you know, whether I'm fighting, or being a promoter, that's why the company is created. And I love this sport. I love it. I love going to fights. I love being in the locker room.

I love seeing the fighters train. I love going to boxing gyms and the smell of it. Like, everything about it just tickles my pickle, if you will. And so I will always be in this sport for sure. Well, Jay, congrats on the great year, man. You've definitely taken boxing by storm in many different ways. And looking forward to see when you got up your sleeve, both as a boxer and a promoter, hopefully earlier as a promoter,

if we can get Taylor Serrano past the finish line. You think that's going to happen in April or May? I hope so. We are doing everything in our power, and it's looking really good, and it's going to be a massive, massive fight. So I'm excited for that one. And we're going to have a massive 2022. You're going to see a lot of big things.

from me and you're going to see a lot of big things from Amanda Serrano. Well, between you, a potential female problem bot, that should be an interesting pre-fight buildup. That's for sure. Jake, good to talk to you, man. Thanks for your time today. Awesome. Thank you, Chris.

That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Dan Rayfield and Jake Paul for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL. late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends

on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Keir Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing.

How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun,

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