The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Joe Joyce-Zhilei Zhang Part II

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

Chris is joined by friend of the podcast and longtime boxing writer and broadcast Corey Erdman to breakdown  William Zepeda' win and what might be next for him, could we see a Berlanga-Munguia fight after Edgar meeting with Eddie Hearn, and what should we expect from the rematch with Joe Joyce-Zhang. It's all here and more. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. This is Boxing with Chris Manix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network. We are live on AMP. Make sure you get the first listen of every show on the volume network on AMP. Subscribe to the volume feed on AMP.

Subscribe to my feed at Chris Mannix on AMP as well and never miss a show when it comes out about a day earlier. So it's always good to get an early version of the episode. We are loaded up on this show today. Corey Erdman, writerboxing scene.com, broadcaster extraordinaire. He had a busy weekend. Last weekend, Tijuana, Los Angeles. He'll be in Orlando with me.

this weekend for the Richardson Hitchens, Jose Zepeda, headline cards, a matchroom card live on DeZone. We'll talk to Corey about all the news in boxing from Williams Zapeda's win this past weekends, Hitchens against Zepeda, some other things going on in boxing as well. A little bit later, Joe Joyce, the juggernaut. He will join me from England. Joe has got a big rematch coming up on Saturday. He's going to take on Jay Lejean in a rematch of a fight that Joyce lost by knockout.

at Joe Joyce's advanced age, pretty much winner go home for Joe. So a major moment for Joe Joyce over in the UK this week. I'll talk to him about that. Plus I get his take on Tyson Fury against Francis Nagano. Joyce has had the experience of sparring both men, Tyson Fury and Francis Nagano, gives me his take on how that fight could play out in Saudi Arabia

about a month and a half from now. But first, Corey Erdman, senior writer, boxing scene.com, racking up the miles over the last couple of weeks. in Los Angeles, Orlando this weekend. Hopefully you're getting some Marriott points there as well, Corey. You did get a chance to see a pretty compelling lightweight fighter. I'm not even going to call Williams Zepeda prospect anymore. He's on the cusp of 30 wins.

And he continues to beat quality opposition. This time it was Mercito Hesta, who lasted all of five plus rounds before Zepeda eventually stopped him. He stopped him the same way that he stopped Hector Tanahara, that he overwhelmed guys like René Alvarado and Jojo Diaz. Just an unbelievable volume of punches. This is one of the most prolific punchers in boxing today against Hesta, who, like, Hesta has come up short in his most recent world title challenges,

but he was coming off a legitimate win over Jojo Diaz. He had quality trainers in his corner, led by Marvin Simodio, and he was just taken out, you know, five plus rounds. That was it for Mercito Hesta. So let's start there. Your overall thoughts on Williams Apeda's performance last Saturday. I mean, he is just such an overwhelming volume puncher. I think that he's taking volume punching almost to another level.

You know, I don't want to say that he's the busiest fighter that I've ever seen, but he's right up there with the types of guys who have broken CompuBox numbers in the past, you know, super, super volume punchers, guys like Zach Padilla and, you know, Rayo Lavera, guys like that who throw like 120 for round, Manuel Medina, he's taking it to another level, and he's doing it on a high level, too. You know, he's not just kind of like a Jesus Soto Khoras type, who is an extreme volume puncher but seems to have a ceiling. We don't really know what Cepeda's ceiling is right now, but I think you were right in saying that he's no longer a prospect anymore. This is a legitimate lightweight contender. And in fact, when you look at what Cepeda has

accomplished right now, the types of guys that he's beaten, he doesn't have the resume of the big names that he's chasing right now. He doesn't have the resume of, you know, obviously a Tank Davis or a Devin Haney, guys like that. But the guys that he's in and around when you look at the ring ratings, you know, say, you know, an Isaac Cruz or a Frank Martin, his resume is right there with him. And the way that he's doing it is even more definitive than the way that those types of guys have beaten their opposition on the way up. So, I mean, stylistically, he's going to be a nightmare for absolutely anybody. It's not going to be an easy night for anyone, even if you think that the bigger names

wind up beating him. And, you know, that may very well be. It's not going to be easy. He's going to demand something of you physically that no one in that division is going to ask of you. And that's going to make for compelling television. Yeah, I love Williams of Beta. I've loved him ever since I saw him for the first time fight on that Ring City series during

the pandemic. and, you know, he really has come a long way since then. I mean, earned his place in the Golden Boy stable with that win over Tana Harah. Tana Har at that point was, you could argue he was the A side of that fight. He was the prospect at that time. William Zepeda went in and beat him down pretty badly. He's only done great things since then. I do think Williams Zepeda, as good as he is, is vulnerable to one specific type of fighter.

I think Zepeda is vulnerable to power counterpunchers or guys that can punch in between punches. We haven't seen Zepeda in against those guys yet. Tanahara can't punch. René Alvarado can't punch, not at 135 anyway. Jojo Diaz, not a puncher. You know, even Mercito Hesta, not a puncher. He hasn't been in with that guy, that type of guy. And, you know, good for Golden Boy, for, you know,

leading him in the way that they have. But I do want to see what happens when Zepeda goes in with a counterpuncher because he leaves himself a little bit open there, Corey. I don't know how much you were picking up on that during the fight how much you buy into that. But, you know, when I sees a pay to just unfurl, you know, eight, ten, twelve punch combinations, which are just, you know, majestic to watch at times,

not to get too carried away, but he's open. And if he goes up against a guy, let's use Yvante Davis as an example. And that might be the most extreme, because he's probably the best counterpuncher, not just in the lighter divisions, but all of boxing when it comes to power. I think he has a problem there.

I do. I think he's going to have to learn to be a little more defensive. because when I, like Hesta a couple of times during that fight, I saw him clip Zepeda with counter shots. And if you're getting clipped by Hesta punch, that's one thing. If you're going in with a Gervante Davis, a Shakur Stevenson, if you move up and wait, maybe Ryan Garcia could be in his future.

That's something you've got to be wary of. I mean, how significant a, I don't call it an issue because he's undefeated and he's dominating, but, you know, how much of that is a kind of weakness in his game at this point? I mean, that that is his weakness. And that is, that's the conceit that he's allowing here. Because if you are going to throw 120 punches, your hands aren't going to be anywhere near your face most of the time. That's just, you can't really have it both ways.

Now, can he make some adaptations, maybe carry his hands a little bit higher, you know, dip the volume down a little bit, places punches a little bit more? Maybe, you know, maybe he can. You know, the Williams of Peda that fought Jojo Diaz, when the bulk of his punches that he was throwing were jabs, that's a little more defensively responsible version of Williams Zapata. But I think against Hesta, he decided that he didn't have to do that at all. I mean, when you look at the numbers that he was putting up, that round three in particular, landing 79 punches in a round, and I think 69 of them were power punches,

that's full on selling out for volume and power. And it's a lot of fun to watch. But yeah, of course. I mean, Sepeda does get hit. And he got hit by Hesta. but he was just able to walk through it and he showed a good chain in doing that, but we have seen Williams Zepeda buzz before,

so there is a little bit of vulnerability, but I want to go back to that performance because that wasn't just a guy who was retreating to the ropes and just was there to be hit. That was a pretty good fighter in Bersito Hesto who was throwing back and was landing good sharp shots and Zepeda was able to throw nonetheless.

So that was, that's not, you know, looking at the undercard, you know, Darius Fulgroom fought like Ricardo Luna. And I think you texted me afterwards something about Luna. I'm with Ricardo Luna. Yeah. Right. Like that's, that's a punch. You know, I've seen some people say, yeah, it's impressive, but, you know, he was in there with a punching bag. Mercino Hesta's not a punching bag. He had ideas. He just ran out of real estate. He was throwing punches. Mercito Hester was still throwing like 60 plus punches around, but he was still getting doubled up by this guy. This is an extreme physical test for anyone. But yeah, I think that when he gets in there with someone like Jervante Davis or a Shakur Stevenson,

you know, guys that have pop and can counter, that's when things will get truly interesting for him. No, I spent a little bit of time with Hesta a couple of weeks ago at Wildcard. I know he had a plan. Like, he and Marvin Somodio had, I thought, a reasonable game plan for this fight. They knew they were going to have to punch with him. They knew to have to counter with him. It's just unfortunately that, you know, he has to just does not have the power

to get the attention of Williams of Payton. And I thought it was notable early on. You see Hesta smiling and laughing when Zepeda is throwing punches. And I think Jojo said something during the broadcast where he said something to the extent of, you know, Zepeda is not the most powerful guy in the world, but it's just an accumulation of punches. Like, you know, the first, you know, 10, 15 shots, you might say, this guy doesn't have a lot of pop. All of a sudden, you're getting hit with like 100, 200, 200, within three or four rounds. And, you know, your night is ultimately over.

So let's talk about the future for William Zepeda. Because there's some pie in the sky stuff out there. Golden Boys talking about Tank Davis. That's not going to happen. Let's just be real here. Tank Davis is not fighting Williams-Zepeda any point time over the next six to 12 months. Williams-a-Pade and his team, they want Devin Haney. I am not uncertain there, Corey, to say that Williams-A-Peda is not in the plans of Devin Haney in the near or perhaps even long-term future.

Devin Haney is at 140 pounds. He is aligning himself with matchroom. He's got a plan there to collect titles. Williams-A-Peda is not on the radar of Devin Haney. So now you have to start thinking about. what the best path is. And look, it's easy to throw out Shakur Stevenson as an opponent. And I think that would be an excellent fight.

But if I'm Golden Boy, the first thing I'm doing this week is I am lobbying the IBF hard. Because Williams of Peda is ranked number six in the IBF rankings. The IBF, for whatever it's worth, they're a sanctioning body that kind of goes by the letter of its laws, right? Like part of that's because they got rated back in the 1990s. but there are a sanctioning body that does follow the rules. So the top two contenders for that 135 pound title, which is currently occupied by Devin Haney, but Devin is not going to be going back down to 135 to defend it.

It's available. It's available to be had. If I'm Golden Boy, I am pushing hard to get Williams Zepeda in one of those top two slots. Right now the number one spot is vacant. The number two spot is held by George Cambosis. And if I'm Golden Boy, I'm thinking Cambos is sorry, he's pretty good, but he's another guy without a lot of power. And that's another guy Zepeda would have a great chance of just out volume punching over the course of that fight.

So my advice to Golden Boy would be to aggressively lobby the people at the IBF to move Zepeda from number six up to number two or even number one. There are obviously some guys in between there, but like Issaq Cruz is between there and Issaq Cruz is not going to fight. you know, George Cambosis, he's going to most likely get a shot at Tank Davis. Maxie Hughes is there, and I think we'd all like to see Maxi Hughes get another opportunity at some point because of how the Cambosis fight went. But, you know, Zepeda with this win should leapfrog him. I think Golden Boy should be aggressive with this, man. I think getting a shot at the IBF version of the lightweight title and a shot at

fighting George Cambosis is the best chance Zepeda can get a belt. And if he gets that belt, a lot of other things. things start to open up for him at 135. You can start making cross-promotional deals. You can start talking about a Chaucor Stevenson fight for a lot more money. I think the focus should be on getting that IBF title and getting into a position to fight George Cambosus. Yeah, I mean, that would be a fantastic plan if they can enact that. And you're right. I mean, without a title, none of these other big names have any reason to want to fight Williams-Apena. For one, you know, he doesn't bring a ton to the table economically right now, but also he's not a fun

style to step in there against if you don't have something that you're going to win for your efforts. So, but again, like thinking of those names, Chris, like, you have to like subpoena's chances of picking up a title if those are the types of guys that he would have to get through. You know, if you put him in there with an Esau Cruz or a Maxi Hughes or a George Cambosus, I like some paid his chances in all of those fights, you know? And, you know, I don't love making predictions because I never know whose fight I'm going to call. And they might call me afterwards and say, hey, you said I was going to lose to someone, but listen, I get that all the time. Don't worry.

I get that all the time. I wouldn't think you were out of line for picking Zepeda against any of those guys or even feeling confident in his chances against any of those guys. And Cambosis included. So if they can make that happen, then yeah, things can start to open up for him if he holds a title belt because one thing Zepeda will have behind him. Again, he doesn't have the name recognition as of yet, but he is, that. fan base is starting to grow. You're seeing when he fights that like the timeline is starting to

light up a little bit. I frankly was surprised by the crowd that he brought out in Los Angeles. And you know, you and I have been to many fights at that commerce casino. And sometimes you'll see the crowd kind of dissipate because there are a lot of local ticket sellers and people will leave after their fighters have fought. Everyone stuck around for Williams-a-Peda. He was someone that the masses that were there wanted to see. So I think that he is developing. a following that those types of fighters will develop. Fans want to see them get a crack at someone. And fans love volume punters like that because people feel that volume and pressure

is kind of the antidote for the slick boxers out there. They want to see guys like that test someone. And if Zapata can pick up a title, he's going to have the momentum that he needs to get even bigger fights. Yeah, just to clarify, Williams of Payta right now, number six in the IBF rankings, Maxi Hughes, as I said, number five, Isso Cruz, number four, Vasilaumechenko, at number three, but he's indicated he's done for the rest of the calendar year. And Cambosis at number two with the number one spot currently vacant.

You've got to make that your priority, in my opinion, if you're Golden Boy. You've got to get him a title there. There are other opportunities. You look at the WBO rankings and Zepeda is right there as well, but a couple more people ahead of him, including the guy that you call this fight, Angel Fierro is up there in the top five in the WBO rankings. But I just think Zepeda has got to look to get that IBF title show. You get that.

Get an opportunity to beat George Cambos. Tough fight. Cambo's good. But again, doesn't have fight changing power. And that's the, that's the kryptonite, I think, to Williams Zapata as he gets into with these guys down the line. All right. So we will be in Orlando this weekend to call the Hitchens Jose Zapata fight.

Also in Orlando this week will be Edgar Berlanga, the undefeated super middleweight contender last scene beating Jason Quigley at Madison Square Garden. Berlanga will be there to discuss his future with his promoter Eddie Hearn. His manager, Keith Conley, I believe, will also be there as well. And from what I understand, one of the top priorities of that meeting is to find a way to make it financially palatable for Edgar Berlanga to fight Jaime Mungia. This is a fight we've been talking about really since Berlanga beat Jason Quigley. it is a very easy to fight to make in terms of boxing politics. Mungia is aligned with Golden Boy.

Berlanga, of course, aligned with Match Room. It is a tremendous fight, either in New York or Southern California, in terms of ticket sales. Right now, there's some distance between what Berlanga wants and what Matchroom and the people behind it, presumably Zone, is willing to pay Edgar Berlanga. But, Corey, Berlanga, to me, has to find a way to say yes here.

Has to find a way to say yes. You look at his resume, and he's highly ranked in, among some of the sanctioning buys, but he's 26 years old. He's 21-0. His last five fights have come against Jason Quigley, Alexis Angulo,

Steve Rolls, your guy, Marcelo Cossaris, and Damon Nicholson. Not exactly a murderer's row of opponents. You know, to me, if you're Burlanga, you're at a point where it's kind of put up or shut up. You've got to show you've got something at a high level. And I know he believed that a Canelo fight was going to be in the offing when he signed with Matron.

That was obviously disappointing. But while a Mungia fight is nowhere near as lucrative, it's more winnable. I think that's for sure. Like Mungia, a very good offensive fighter. But we saw in the fifth round of his fight with Sergey Daryvanchenko, we almost got stopped. and Darvinchenko is a faded former middleweight contender. So don't tell me Edgar Berlang, I can't win that fight. Like, I believe he can.

So I'm of the opinion that Edgar Berlang has to find a way to say yes. He has to find a way to feel like the money is enough for him to fight Hyman McGee. Maybe it's not going to be exactly what he wants to be. It's not going to be in the $3, $4 million range. But he's got to find a way to take a couple of million bucks or whatever it is and get in the ring with Jaime Mungia. Because, and you can say the same thing about Jaime O'Ni, as well, that's a separate conversation.

He's another guy that desperately needs a top-level opponent. These two guys need each other. And I think both of them have to find a way to say yes. What do you think? I think you're exactly right. I think they do need one another. And I think that they make for a fantastic fight. I think you and I have talked about this fight

about three times on this podcast about how it just makes sense for both fighters, but it also makes for compelling television. They both have fan bases that they bring to the table. and I think for both fighters, maybe more so for Prolanga, because Mungia did, you know, just kind of have to prove his medal in that Derry Vincenko fight at the very least. But Berlang, I think, is now past the point where I think he's at a point where he has to prove it a little bit more. In the early stages of his career, obviously there was a lot of hype around him, and people were willing to give him a little bit of a leash in terms of proving himself.

But now I think that Berlanga, in terms of the court of public opinion, he's just in a full-blown skepticism territory. And in order to convince people, I think he needs a win like this. And there aren't too many other fights out there that would do that for him. And particularly ones that would be all that profitable. So, of course, I empathize with any fighter trying to get a good deal, what they think is worth it for taking a particular risk. But I don't know what the other super lucrative fights are out there for Belanga. And let's say we're talking about $1.5, $2 million, let's say, to fight Jaime Mungia. I mean, that's a pretty good deal.

I don't know where else you're going to get that. You'll have to fight two, three times to do that. But you might want to take a chance. And I think if your match room, you probably want to find out what you have right now. Because, yeah, there isn't that Canello cash out fight for him on the table anymore. You probably want to find out what you have and what better. way to do it than in a fight like this, that also wouldn't be destructive to either fighter if they lost it, because I think it would be an exciting fight no matter what.

And both fighters would get credit for taking the fight. I think it would be positive PR win or lose for either fighter. Both these guys are in their mid-20s. And I think we have to move past the idea that a perfect record is the end-all-be-all. you know, I've seen many guys gain something from a loss. And even if you lose and you're a little down on your luck, well, all it takes is one or two fights to get right back at the top. And I mean, I think a guy like Teofima Lopez is a great example.

In 2019, he loses to George Cambosis. Things look like they're falling apart for him. He comes back, moves up and weight to 140. Now he's talking about him as the number one guy in the 140-pound division. So I think we've got to move past this idea that guys need to, to be undefeated. And, you know, look, I think there's a perception among some people that Mungia would just steamroll them.

And look, Berlanga did not look great against Jason Quigley, but Quigley was more of a mover. Mungia is not, right? Mungia is going to be there and he's going to want to brawl with you. And, you know, Edgar Berlanga, if nothing else, has shown he has pop at that weight class. So I'd love to see it. I think Burlanga's got to find a way to do it. It's going to be interesting to see how those negotiations play out over the next couple of days and into the next couple of weeks,

because if those guys reject each other, what do you want to see them in? Like, Golden Boys got nothing for Jaime Mungia. Like, you're going to do a John Ryder fight? Like, that doesn't do anything for me. And that, to me, is just as dangerous for Mungia as Brelanga is. You know, if you're Buranga, you know, all the top talents over at PBC.

And again, I know you thought that a Canelo fight was going to be there, but it's not. So, time to recalculate and have kind of your king-making moment against Jaime Mugia. if you win that fight, all of a sudden, then you can start calling out Canello. You can start saying like, look, Canello, I know you got business over at PBC, but I'll be waiting. Like, I just beat Hyman-Mungia. I'm ready to go.

So I think he's got to be proactive in trying to make that fight happen because that's an excellent fight, a meaningful fight for both those guys. All right. So in Orlando, oh, good. Sorry. I was just going to say, I mean, when you say that they need one another, not only they need one another because the win would be great on their resume. But Chris, I think there might be, there are no two fighters at the sport. think this is hyperbole here that people love to slap the hype job tag on then those two fighters every you know every thread um on twitter on message boards about either of these two fighters is about

you know they're going to get exposed you know they this they're just a product of matchmaking um they they have a chance to silence some of that and and it would be through one another and by making any other decision right now i think you're just feeding in to that narrative and and you're confirming what people believe about you. So they need to make this fight as much for just making the fight and saying, hey, I'm willing to do this as what the results of it would do for them. Iman McGee is 42 and O. He's 42 and O.

And his most meaningful win was, what, Liam Smith? Saddam Ali, probably. Saddam Ali? Yeah. I mean, it's wild. It's wild. Both these guys have made a lot of money and add a lot of success against lesser opposition. now is the time to find out what they both got.

Now's the time. Not six months from now, not eight months from now, right now. Before the end of the year, we need to get Jaime Mogia and Edgar Berlanga in the ring against each other. All right, so we will be down in Orlando for the card headline by Rich Sletichens and Jose Zepeda. Zepeda, most people remember from a couple of things.

The absolutely bonkers war where both guys got knocked down like 47 times. And that's the fight that eventually, you know, not put him on the radar there. So you got Jose Zapata against Richardson Hitchens. And that is, it's a big fight I think of Richard Hitchens to kind of show where he is in the lightweight division, or the junior welterweight division. He's a guy with a great jab coming off a terrific win over John Bousa in his last

fight at MSG, knocked him down a couple of times, one wide on all three scorecards. Richardson Hitchens believes he is already a contender at 140. Do you see him right now as a contender at 140? I think that he is very capable of standing in there with any of those guys at 140 right now. Now, does that mean that he has the resume to be considered a contender? I mean, you could debate that. But, you know, depending on how you want to qualify who's in contention or not, I think that he is.

I think that Hitchens has a set of skills that is going to be a problem. problem for anyone at 140. And it's the opposite set of skills, the very opposite of what we were talking about with Williams-Apeta, who by virtue of volume and physicality is going to be a nightmare of a night for anyone. Well, Richardson Hitchens has an A-plus-plus-plus jab. And guys that have that can move that left-hand around and do a lot with it, they can make any fight ugly. And also, Hitchens has shown, you know, kind of an attitude, a defiant attitude a willingness to make ugly fights. He says, I don't care.

If you can't get past my jab, what are you going to do about it? He's willing to kind of be the bad guy and isn't compelled to make mistakes in there. He's willing to play that safe game. And with his dimensions and with the way that he can use that left hand, he could be a nightmare for anyone. He's very, very sure of himself in talking to guys that have sparred with him and in talking to Chris Algeria, he spart extensively with him. He said, those are just not fun sessions.

No one looks forward to getting in the ring with Richardson Hitchens. So, yeah, I think that this is someone that could be a problem for anyone. And this is the perfect test for him, an established contender, someone who will threaten to bring something more out of him. But if Hitchens can nullify someone like Sepeda, then I think we could be pretty certain of how dangerous he can be in this division. I agree. On Hitchens, he's a guy had spent extensive time not just sparring with Chris Algeria, but also Shikor Stevenson, who has been a long time training partner of his. I'm not exactly sure if they trained together for this fight,

but they did train together for the last one, and that was the best we've seen from Richardson Hitchens. I think it's starting to come into his prime right now. He's 5'10, 140 pounder with a wicked jab. I mean, you can just win just with those attributes. I know you want to get knockouts and be spectacular, but if you're tall, long, with an absolute piston rod of a jab, you're going to have a lot of success in that division.

I think Zepad is the right fight for him. I know Richardson Hitchens, wanted that Montana Love fight. We kind of all did because there's been some bad blood between those two. I don't think Montana Love really wants that fight anytime soon. He's had a couple of opportunities to have that fight. But Hitchens now gets the paid. It was been right there kind of on the cusp of a world championship.

He lost a narrow decision to Jose Ramirez back in 2019, a controversial decision, no less. That was in Ramirez's backyard in Fresno and it was a controversial finish. Then he lost the progrey. I thought I just fought the wrong fight against Progrey. Corey. I thought, like, not to ever, ever try to get someone to fight in the same way. What was his name? The guy that just beat Pro Gray. We both called that fight in New Orleans. What was, I'm blanking on his day. We'll think of it in a second.

Yeah, but it was awful. The reason I remember his name is because the fight was so damn dreadful. But that's, you know, boxing and moving is how you potentially beat a guy like Regis Pro Gray. Engaging with him is not. And I know Zepeda's got kind of that pride in him and wants to engage, but that wasn't smart against Ritchie's pro. He came back, got a win. It's a perfectly reasonable fight for Richardson Hitchens as he tries to take his game to the next level. So it's my long way of answering. I do think this guy's a contender. And I think this fight against Zepeda, if he makes it look as easy as he did against John Bousa in his last fight, which is a tall task. Zepa is a lot better than Bowser. We're going to be talking about a real

contender. He kind of reminds me a little bit, and, you know, not to get too complimentary, we're talking about a guy that was, you know, is still coming up versus now the undisputed lightweight champion, but he rhymes a little Devin Haney. You know, Devin Haney is more boxer than puncher. He's a guy that operates behind a really good jab. I think Devin's more dynamic, but I think Richardson Hitchens is going to have a chance to be really tough in world title fights in the real near future if he wins this fight on Saturday. Yeah, and by the name that we're both forgetting was Dendalito Zaria. I've also tried to block that fight in my memory. God, that was so miserable.

Was there like 20 punches landed in that fight? And that was entirely Zaria's fault, you know, for how we fought that fight. I mean, we didn't want to do that. No, we had to fill air time by talking about faints and, you know, things, things that weren't happening. That was, I didn't look forward to that. Yeah, don't ever want to relive that one. But, you know, to your point was Zeta. I mean, you know, what he did against Pro Gray, I mean, he was just playing to his strengths.

I mean, Zepeda wants to be aggressive. And I think that, yes, they're, I. as we've seen with Zaria, there is a path to, you know, being super negative and winning a fight against Regis Progray, but that's not really in Sepeda's DNA. And it's because of that that this is a nice matchup for Hitchens. And if Zapata can start to get close to him with more regularity than we've seen anyone get close to Hitchens, then maybe we'll see some of the other tools a little more from Hitchens as well. You know, we're talking about him as kind of, you know, this Fort Knox of a jabber that you can't get past that lead hand, but, you know, maybe Zapata forces him to show some other tools

with a little bit more regularity. And that could be fun to see as well, because ultimately Hitchens won't be able to just jab his way, you know, to a lengthy run as a title holder. He is going to have to show a little bit more. And this is the type of fight where perhaps we will get to see what he's capable of. And that, I think, will give us a clear picture of what his ceiling actually is. Look, Zepeda has three losses in his career, and all three have been at or near the world championship level. He lost Terry Flanagan over in the UK. He lost Jose Ramirez in Ramirez's backyard. And then he lost to Regis Progray by 11th round knockout.

So he's taken some lumps. But the guys that have beat him have been the very best in and around their weight class. So he's a live dog, I think, in this fight against Richardson. It's. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok. TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. Clearly, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. So I want to finish with the fight over in the UK. Joe Joyce against Jaley-Jong. It was just months earlier, Corey,

that we saw Jailie Jong just stunned Joe Joyce by busting up his eye socket and having that fight stopped in the middle rounds. It was kind of eerily reminiscent of Joe Joyce versus Daniel Dubois. When Joe Joyce broke Daniel Dubois's eye socket and forced that fight to be stopped. Now we have the immediate remnant.

match. Jay Li Zhang has expressed some surprise that Joe Joyce would take this rematch right away. He thinks Joe Joyce is too one-dimensional to fight him. He thinks the lack of head movement, just the constant coming forward is just going to play right to Jay Lee Zhang's strengths. In your opinion, more likely, do we get a repeat or do we get revenge in this fight? I think it's far more likely that you get a repeat. I think that, you know, Zhang is right. Joyce is one-dimensional. I don't think that he would ever, I mean, he might say that he's not,

but that is his game. It is, it's pressure, it's volume, and it's the ability to absorb shots. Joyce, to me, I mean, yeah, he lost that fight and he got busted up, but what he was actually doing in there

didn't look all that different for what he's done in every single fight of his pro career. But the difference is that his face wasn't able to hold up anymore. You know, we talked, you know, on his run up,

we talked about how, yeah, this guy is the juggernaut. He could just take shots and it doesn't seem to affect him. Well, at a certain point, your body does give out. At a certain point, your eye socket will just get busted. And now that it has happened to him, I do, you know, I don't worry about his punch resistance in the conventional sense. I worry, is his face going to hold up? You know, is his eye going to hold up?

Is that could, you know, has he now crossed the other side of that bridge where, yeah, he can still absorb punches, but, you know, he just can't hold it together anymore. And, you know, what adjustments realistically is Joe Joy is going to make in this camp? Like, is it possible, right? Is it possible that he comes in and steamrolls, you know, you know, hurts him early and wins the fight? Of course, it's possible. But I just, there's no way that Joyce is going to add, you know, some startling new dimension to his game. It'd suddenly be, you know, like a springy backfoot jabber in this fight.

He's not going to do that. There's not enough time for him going to do that. Like, that's just not in his DNA as a fighter. So I think it's far more likely that we see a repeat than Joyce, you know, than Joyce pulling the upset here and getting that win back. I just, I don't know. It's just not realistic to expect anything fantastically new from Joyce in this rematch. A couple things.

Jay Lejean is really good. Like, he's 40 years old, got a late start in his pro career, but he's really good. I think people got down on him after watching. the draw against Jerry Forrest, but there were a lot of things that went into that. You know, some weird stuff was going on with Jay Lejean that week to the point where I think he said that he only dragged one glass of water the entire week he was down in South Florida, just a bizarre week where he wasn't physically ready to go into that fight. The loss to Philip Hergevich could have gone either way.

And Hergevich at that time was the boogeyman. Nobody wanted to fight Philip Hergevich going into that fight. Zhang did. And if that fight had gone one more round, he probably, probably would have won that fight by knockout because Zhang looked like the stronger fighter in the second half, whereas Herzegovic just looked like he had faded. So credit to Jay Lee Zhang. One thing Joe Joyce has said to me and to others is that he's going to come into this fight heavier. Now, he's a heavyweight, so you wonder why he's coming in lighter in the first place,

but he weighed 256 for the first fight against Zhang. He hasn't weighed that light since his win over Bryant Jennings back in 2019. Joe Joyce is accustomed to fighting at 270. He even in the 280s. Like, he's just a big guy that, you know, likes to be on the heavier side. For whatever reason, he decided to come in a little bit lighter, maybe to be a little more nimble. I don't know what the rationale was for it, but he came in a little bit lighter for that fight. He's going to come in, he says, 270s, 280s for this fight.

And I think that's going to be a benefit to him, because when he's been at his best, that win over Joseph Parker, some of the other wins he's had in his career, he has been on the heavier side. So I think that's a plus for Joe Joyce. I also think, you know, the eye, look, if you leave yourself open for those slashing lefts, like, you're done, you're done. I do think Joe underestimated Zhang. I think when into that fight, thinking this guy's 40, yeah, he looked okay against, you know,

against Philip Herkovich, but he's not in my league. And I think he got a little too cocksure about that fight, and it reflected in the ring. Definitely not coming into that with that attitude this time. And I think he still looked good enough in that first fight with his pressure and he was landing some shots. That I can see a pathway to win here. I can. And I think if you're Joe Joyce, you know this is it. What's he, 37, 38 years old?

Like, this is, this is it for you. Those two fights in a row to Jay Li Zhang, your career can continue, but you're a gatekeeper at that point. Your chances of competing for a world title are probably out the window. So I think he's going to be in better condition. I think he's going to be a little bit smarter after going those six rounds with Zhang. and I think he's going to have a little more respect for Zhang coming into this fight. I'm going to, it doesn't sound like it should be an upset, but right now I think it is. I think Zhang is the favorite, but I'm going to pick Joyce to win this fight by upset.

I think he's, I think the desperation will get to him and have a better game plan, and I think he'll be the more physical guy in the ring and take it to Zhang. Yeah, and listen, it's also possible that, you know, that was the best that we'll ever see from Zhang. and, you know, because of where he is on his biological clock, he could fall off a cliff as well. It's not, of course, it's not impossible that Joyce wins this rematch at all. And if he feels more physically comfortable coming in a little bit heavier, then certainly that will help him. I also think that, you know, I don't know that this was his mentality, but I know this was my thinking going into the first fight, is that, you know, having seen Zhang, you know, kind of labor in the past. And, of course, the forest fight was a, you know, a very, you know, outlier of a situation.

and he had some medical things going on, but seeing him in that fight, even seeing him against Philip Perkovic, you know, kind of struggling with his stamina later in the fight. You know, one thing that Joyce has always been lauded for is that he has a bigger gas tank maybe than anyone in the heavyweight division. He can throw and throw and throw. He's not going to get tired. I think he felt that he was probably just going to run this guy out of the ring. And I think that he now knows at least that it's a lot more complicated than that, and that

Zhang, he might only throw about 18 punches around, but what he throws is technically perfect, it's right down the pipe, it's to the point, and right, you know, and that's dangerous. That left hand, that left hand straight down the middle. Zhang has some of the biggest hands I've ever seen. Like he has got absolute bricks. Sounds like hyperbole, but he has monster hands. And when he throws that left hand straight down the middle, if you're just going to stand there and take it, I don't care who you are.

I don't care what kind of chin you think you have. You're going to get knocked out. Simple as that. Or you're going to get broken like Joyce was and you're going to wind up in the same spot. Yeah. It may be the most anatomically perfect left hand. in the sport. Seriously, it comes right

from the shoulder, right down the middle, and he can hurt anyone in the world with that. And Joyce knows that now. It's not just a pure hustle game. So I'm intrigued by the rematch, but yeah, I don't expect a drastically different Joe Joyce. I just think that maybe, as you're saying, if he prepares a little

bit differently, you know, maybe he is able to get to Zhang and break him down, but I'm still probably leaning toward Zhang again. Well, tune to that fight on Saturday afternoon in the U.S. You can catch it on ESPN Plus, Joe Joyce against Jolie Zhang. Stick around later. Flip over to DeZone for Richson Hitchens against Jose Zepeda.

Corey Erdman will be on the call with myself and Chris Algerie. Corey, good stuff, man. We'll see you down in Orlando later in the week. See you in a couple days. And when we come back, my conversation with Joe Joyce. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball.

basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at It podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed cracks. I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Now you're finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Joe Joyce is a heavyweight contender on Saturday. He is back against Jay Lee-Jong, a rematch of a time. tough loss for Joe earlier this year. Joe, I've seen you lose twice in your career now. Once in the gold medal match in Rio to Tony Yoka, you didn't lose again until this past summer. Which of those defeats was harder for you to take? Definitely, Zhang, because it was, I actually had a physical reason why the fight was stopped. And yeah, there's obviously the Olympics

was a massive thing, but I was very happy that I meddled. Like, if I'd gone into the Olympics thinking I wasn't, that I was going to meddle and get a silver medalist, I'd be going to be over the moon. But that's cool. But, but, like, because it was, like, so close to gold and I could have, and that could have changed. Maybe put an extra zero on, like, sailing on, I mean, motors and a little bit of Glossier being a gold medalist. But, yeah, that happened. But, yeah, the Zang, the biggest fight to date, I mean, it was one that I should have cruised through and got the victory and that was with a WO title, interim title on the line.

So it's a big risk taking that fight. And then I managed to still be in there, but it was the only stopped because I didn't get knocked out or anything. It only stopped because of the eye swore up and the doctor looked at it twice. Even though I could see a little bit out of it, it was stopped. So I lived to fight another day. But I thought I was in the fight toward, you know, I was starting to get my. range and get the shots off and then but I did keep getting tagged with a eye well

getting shot in hitting the eye by Zhang and Zang surprised me actually with his speed and his power I knew he's going to be strong and pattern and powerful he seems pretty durable as well but he was very accurate that night and he got the win I gave this big risk like taking that fight in the first place but I did it anyway and I guess now it's time to just get back to the position that I was in before that. When the fight was stopped, what was your reaction? When, it was hard because, like, I was still, I still, you know, I was learning more shots than him.

I was, I think I was up on the score cards, even though the only, the telling shots were Zangs, a bit more powerful ones that were doing damage to the eye. But I felt like I was still in there and I was just getting warmed into the fight. more so and I didn't feel tired or too like a hurt or anything so when it was it was kind of out of my control because it was the referee took the second look at it and called it off but even though I could like count how many fingers he was

holding up but it kind of was a tough lesson to learn and something I've had to make changes that will improve um we'll improve me in the long in the long run because I guess some fight If I'd been a lighter, my career light is for that fight and won the fight and not really learned much, then that would have been, you know, then that's something that, like, stuff would have got overlooked and, like, going into the harder fights. I mean, even this is a very hard fight, and I'm taking him on again, like, it kind of sets me up in, like, in a way that kind of makes me better as a fighter. You see fighters after losses make changes. Sometimes they are radical changes where they change trainers,

change up their teams. Sometimes they're more subtle changes. What kind of changes have you made going into this fight? More changes, not changes to the team, but maybe I have more say in the training. And also, my team has noticed what areas that can be in improving. improved. And it's, you know, a lot, lots of little things, little pieces, bits and pieces, but when you put them together, it's a big, big chunk of things that have changed, really,

in this camp. I'm a lot more focused and dedicated in what I'm, what I need to do. And it's kind of a lesson learned and kick up the backside. It will help me grow in the long road. You mentioned in a couple of interviews that you're a little bit heavier this time around. You weighed 256 for the first fight against Zhang. That's the lowest weight you've been since you fought Brian Jennings back in 2019. What do you expect to come in at for this fight and what do you want to weigh? What is an ideal weight for you? Like two to certainly plus I would imagine or like 280 maybe but like I felt like

like I started camp on my fighting on my boxing weight that I'm comfortable at and it was hard to but it's because I was disciplined as well like I wanted to I wanted to be a lighter weight so I could move around a lot more

and that is the kind of ideal weight that because normally like for Parker for instance I was a little bit over the weight that I should have been that was my optimum way, but it was a great performance. So, and like, I kind of wanted to start the camp already on, like, in good shape. But yeah, there's lots of mistakes and things and little bits of pieces that I had to correct

some lessons that I had to learn. That's as I was saying. So all those are going to stand me in good stead for this fight with rematch. Yeah, and usually when you see a fighter come. in at a low weight or a career low weight, the reaction's always, wow, he's in the best shape of his life. Did you feel the other way? Did you feel like you just operate better when you're a heavier fighter? I'd noticed in there that Zhang was like a lot more sturdy and it's hard to like move him when I was in close. I was kind of felt like I was about almost bouncing off and

my punches maybe are not as as effective as they would have been being heavier. So yeah, And also the tactics and what I've been working on, like the small changes to that. And just having a bit more control of my training and what I'm actually doing. And maybe these changes had to happen to get to the next stage. You exercised your rematch clause, which you had in the contract. Immediately after the fight, Joe, you heard from Frank and maybe a couple of other people that maybe it was possible you would take an interim fight before taking on Zhang in the rematch. In your mind, was this always what was going to be next or was there any thought given to doing a fight in between?

No, there wasn't like especially after the fight and looking at history of other fighters that have gone in again and not and it's not gone their way. So that was that was a conscious thing and like it's like food for thought of like what what I'm going to do. And I decided that especially at this stage, the career, I haven't. this stage of my career, I don't have time to, like, you know, mess about. So I need to just get in there. And I felt I could win the fight first time. And maybe I overlooked him a little bit and was thinking about the next steps. But it's only natural when everyone's like, this is what everyone was talking about,

who you fight in next and blah, blah, and oh, you've got a big chin. You kind of take your eye. Naturally, it's hard to, like, stay focused and dedicated. and, you know, if you don't think there's a problem, like, so if I had cruised on to win the fight, even at that weight, then maybe I wouldn't make the changes that I needed to for the next stage. Not to dramatize what's already a huge fight and a significant fight in your career, but for you, is this the closest thing to a must win? There is, you're 37 years old, you're looking to get that World Heavyweight title shot.

is this a must-win fight for you? Yeah, I said that last time it's a must-win. Yeah, all these fights, but it's something that maybe perhaps needed to happen for me to grow and to get to the next stage. But it is Zhang,

Zhang's a big risky fighter, and this is, I've decided to take him on again, but I believe I'll beat him this time. And that will put me right back in line for the title shots when they get called because the IBFs up next and then the WBO. So once I get the WO interim back, then there'll be nothing major of change.

I'll still be right in time to grab my shot. Before I let you go, I saw you at the Tyson Fury, Francis deGanoe press conference in London this past week. This is a fight that's been criticized by a lot of people as being, you know, a disgrace to heavyweight boxing, whether it's Anthony Joshua, Tony Bellew, there's been a lot of vocal critics out there about this. You are a heavyweight contender. You want one of those belts. How do you feel about Fury v. Nagano? My initial surprise was the Ussick, I mean, Fury Usyk fight or Usook Fury fight wasn't going to take place for the undisputed. But I'm happy for in Gano getting a shot

and he started off in boxing and he's going to make good money from it. And it's also with Mike Tyson in the mix is becoming a spectacle. And boxing is entertainment at the end of the day. So, you know, with all the

YouTube boxers and stuff, people are paying money, good money to see these fights. And also even like the older fighters are a fighting again. So it's like if people want to get some entertainment from it, then

then yeah, I support it. And especially in Saudi, they're putting it on and they're putting up the money. So I'd love to fight in Saudi one of these days and like an interesting fight because it is a big buildup in London. It's all TV screens and see Angano, Calm and and Fury talk and it's building up to be a big spectacle. And I think Yeah, Saudis hosting the boxing now. Also, Vegas with sport in general, they got all the sports team, a lot of sports team, more sports team in the Formula One and stuff. So, yeah, it's exciting times for sport.

Yeah, Vegas, one NBA team away from being a fully integrated sports town out there. You did say you've sparred with Meghanu before, a lot of skepticism about what he's going to be able to do against Tyson Fury. Give me one reason. Give people one reason to believe that Francis de Ghanu has a shot. One reason, he hits really hard. So, especially in heavyweight boxing, it only takes one shot to change a fight the course of the fight. And I think Inganu possesses that power,

explosiveness to like, if he can hit, if you can get in range and hit him with, yeah, hit with one of them like earth-shaking shots, he could like change the course of the fight. So yeah, we'll have to wait and see, you know, watch it and see how it goes because, yeah, it's, you know, two worlds, a UFC, it's boxing, Mike. It'll get a lot of eyeballs on it, no question, whether it's in Saudi Arabia or anywhere. It's, those fights no matter what, they always draw out all different types of fans and everybody wants to make it a whole bunch of money out of it as well. Joe, good to catch up with you, man.

The first fight with you and Zhang was really interesting. I think it's going to be can't miss when you guys get in the ring once again. to you and I appreciate you taking some time. Thank you. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Corey Erdman and Joe Joyce for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts.

And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Scyter. help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the show. the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy. far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the

practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.