The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Low or Legal?

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

Chris is joined by Keith Idec of BoxingScene.com as they discuss the Usyk-Dubois drama and if Dubois and his camp have a case for being upset about the outcome, if a Fury-Usyk fight could be back on the table, and the latest with Bud Crawford calling out Canelo. Later, Mikaela Mayer stops by to talk about her next fight as she moves up in weight, and her thoughts on Alycia Baumgardner testing positive for PED's. It's all here and more. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Here's Chris Mannix. This is Boxing with Chris Mannix. Part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network. We've got a fantastic show for you today. I know I say that all the time, but this show, really is going to be excellent. Keith Ideck, senior writer with boxing scene.com, good friend of the pod. He joins me to run through all the news of the week from the controversy coming out of the Alexander Usick, Daniel Dubois fight to Terrence Crawford's pursuit of a Canelo fight. Can't wait to get into that,

to a potential big fight in the works in the lightweight division. I'll talk to Keith about that as well. Later, Michaela Mayer, former 130-pound champion, she is moving up to the welterweight division for her next fight. joins me to talk about that move, and we get into her thoughts on her arch rival, Alicia Baumgardner, testing positive for banned substances. But first, Keith Idaq, senior writer, boxing scene, one of the most plugged in guys in the business, which is why I love having him on so often. Keith, I want to start by giving a shout out to Tom Brown, a dedicated listener who I had a chance to catch up with on Tuesday at the undercard presser for Canelo Alvarez, Jermel Charlo. Tom, of course, the promoter of that event. He told me,

he especially enjoys the episodes that we do together. So shout out Tom Brown, TGB promotions. Friends of the pod are everywhere in boxing, Keith. I think Tom might be listening just for a reason to yell at both of us, maybe. But that's either here nor there. Tom is a good man, all kidding aside, you know. He did say he occasionally picks up the phone and calls you after hearing something you may have said on this podcast. No, but look, look, I mean, it's all healthy, you know, it's all healthy,

exchanges and all that kind of stuff. And all kidding aside, Chris, and I like Tom and respect Tom. He's been in this business forever. But I never really, like if someone has disagrees with something you say and they call you to respectfully discuss it, I never have a problem with that, you know? And Tom's an old guy, too, man.

He's not going to, he's not on Twitter and all this stupid stuff that you and I both hate, you know. But yeah, I mean, I always appreciate being able to. And it goes both ways. You know, if you have a complaint or something to discuss, I mean, his phone line's open as well. Yeah, no, whenever something comes up, whether it's on a podcast or in print, I always actually enjoy a healthy debate if somebody disagrees with a take or a point that I'm making. So, yeah, I do love the Tom Browns and listener, though. Thanks for listening, Tom.

All right. So I want to start this show in the heavyweight division. So we had on Saturday, Alexander Ussick, successfully defending his three heavyweight titles. stopping Daniel Dubois in the ninth round of that fight. There was controversy, however, in the fifth when Dubois dropped Dusick with a beltline shot that referee Louis Pabon deemed to be low. That decision, as you might expect, was met by considerable outrage from Dubois and his team after the fight.

Here's Dubois and his promoter Frank Warren. No, I didn't think that was a low blow. I thought that landed and I've been treated out of victory tonight. But, you know, what else can I say? What else can I say? Frank. It hit him on the waistband. I wish they could put it up on there now

and let the whole place look at it. Could we play that back by chance? Pardon? I'm asking if we can play that back. We can play that back and show it to everybody. That's all he works on in camp, worked into the body. See that as a weakness and he got caught

and that referee got it badly wrong, badly wrong. Didn't take any points off him. If it's a low blow, why didn't take points off him? It's, you know, and I like it. Usik. I like him, but that was a hometown decision, complete hometown decision. He won that fight because he was not fit to go on. And they gave him, I don't know how long it was a couple of minutes to recover from a legitimate shot. And here's Dubois's trainer, Don Charles.

Usick is an exceptional fighter. We know that. Yeah. But he's got to cut out the cheating. Yeah. however you want to dress it up that's cheating the fight should have been concluded in that round legitimately got hit on the button and he went down

he actually thought of not continuing it right that's called fake in it and the referee fell for it and I trust Frank Warren in the sense that he's going to lodge a complaint okay

I'm speeches I usually got a lot to say. I'm speechless. The fight was, the fight ended in round four and we got conned out of it, period. Ussick, as you might expect, Keith, had a pretty succinct rebuttal to Charles's comments. Don Charles, he has brain fart. Thank you. All right, so a few thoughts on, you know, this, you know, quote-unquote controversy. As it relates to Usik being branded a cheater by Don Charles. That's just ridiculous. Usik wasn't faking it. Usik wasn't milking it. In fact, if you go back and watch the tape, you see pretty clearly after he gets up Alexander Usik telling the referee that he didn't need any more time. It was Louis Pabon somewhat inexplicably, you know, towards the end of that

incident, telling Usik to take even more time. So Usik is not a cheater. As a relationship, as a to the low blow itself, I personally thought it was low. It was borderline, but I thought it was low. And one of the reasons I have no issue with the referee ruling it a low blow is that just two rounds earlier, we saw Dubois warned for a low blow. So in that moment, a bang, bang type of moment for the referee to, you know, lean in that direction that it was a low blow is understanding If you had just warned a fighter that he had hit below the belt two rounds earlier, your mind probably is going to give someone like Alex and Usik in that situation the benefit of the doubt.

Here, Daniel Dubois say things like he landed it smack in the stomach. No, he didn't. No, you know, it's hard to discern whether or not it was a low blow. Here we are talking about it days later and you search social media and you see fighters, you know, having completely different opinions on this incident. But it was not this clean blow that should have obviously been ruled a knockdown. Daniel Dubois should not be the unified heavyweight champion. So let's start here with your take on it.

Did you see a low blow in that instance? And do you believe that Daniel Dubois somehow got robbed? I wouldn't say that Daniel Dubois got robbed. I would say that's a borderline shot, in my opinion, because his trunks are a little high. One thing that I didn't like, and I wasn't paying attention to this in the beginning of fight, but I went back and watched. Luis Pabone, when he's giving his instructions or whatever you would call what he said before the fight started, he did not. Now, he may have done this in the dressing room. He may have instructed them what was illegal punch to the body and what wasn't in the dressing

room. But they're not face to face in the dressing room. So when he tells Daniel DuBois that, he's not looking at Alexander Usook's trunks and where they are and vice versa. So he probably did tell them that in the dressing room, but he did not do it in the ring before the fight started, which is common practice for experienced referees. He didn't do that. Again, Ussick's trunks and Dubois' trunks are right about at the same spot. So what would be a legal blow for one would presumably be a legal blow for the other one. I didn't really, look, there are camera angles in which it looks lower than it does when you're looking at it from another camera angle. Louis Pabone had a clear look at it and immediately called it a low blow. So in his mind, it was certainly low enough

to warrant a break in the action, not a four-minute break in the action. I mean, you only get five. That's the maximum amount allowable, and it seemed like he was going to give him half an hour. So I don't like the way Luis Pabone handled it. I do think that, you know, look, the one thing about Usook is he has shown susceptibility to the body in his career, particularly when he was in the amateurs. I mean, he does not really react to. body punch as well. And if, again, you go back and watch the footage and wasn't really paying attention to it all that much in real time, Timothy Bradley says right before the bell starts, Dubois needs to go to Usik's body. He literally said it right before the opening bell started.

And he tried. And then that happens. So I'm not saying that I certainly don't think Usik is a cheater, as Don Charles said. I agree with you on that. But look, he may have gotten hit with what was a clean body shot and, you know, and sold it a little bit as a low blow because he didn't think he, there were other things about it, Chris that I don't like, like on both sides of it. Usik literally said to, I don't remember the outlet, so I'm not, I would like to give whoever he said it to credit, but I don't remember which outlet it was. But he did say, had Luis Pabone started counting when he went down from that and called that illegal body blow, he would have got up. Well, which is it? You could.

couldn't get up or you could have. You can't have it both ways. I mean, that's a, that's a sketchy thing for him to have said in the aftermath of the fight, in my opinion. And then did he say, Keith, let me ask you, did he, I didn't hear him say he couldn't get up. Did he say in the aftermath that he couldn't get up? Why are you rolling around on the floor? Well, I think to play devil's advocate on this side, I think that, because Louis Pabon immediately ruled that it was a low blow. He immediately said that. He went over to Usik and said, stay down. So when Pabon said stay down, I think Usik said, you know what? screw it, I'm going to stay down. That hurt. Whether it was legal or not, that hurt,

I'm going to stay down. And afterwards, I actually agree with Usik, I believe this statement from Usik. If he had heard a count, if Pabon had turned to him and started to count, I think he would have found his way to his feet. I think he would have found a way to survive the rest of that round. Now, we may never know. But as far as why he stayed down, I think he stayed down because Pabon immediately went to him and said, I think he told him to stay down in that moment. I don't really remember. I'm not saying he didn't, Chris.

I'm just saying that he was making it seem as if he couldn't get up. I don't think he went to get up and then said, oh, he said, stay down. I'm going to stay down. Be that whatever the case, it's an odd thing to say, the way he reacted to that, as if he could not have gotten up in my, that's the way I saw it. And then to say, oh, what I would have gotten up if he started counting. But you were on the, you were, while Pabon kept encouraging him to take more time, he did take well over three minutes to, to recover from that. So if it was something that you could have got up from right away, did you need three plus minutes?

I mean, I guess you could pin that on Luis Pabone. On the flip side, Daniel Dubois said that once that happened in the fifth round, and I'm paraphrasing here, he kind of, he couldn't keep focused on the fight because he felt like everything was against him. minute. Look, man, you've got to be mentally stronger than that. And while it may have taken away his opportunity to become the unified heavyweight champion, you still have seven more rounds to continue to hit him with a legal body blow or something else. I mean, you've got a good right hand, you've got a good jab. Put it together, man. Look, the bottom line is, Daniel Dubois didn't belong in that fight to begin with. He didn't deserve a title shot. You got one anyway when Joe Joyce was forced to wait and then took a fight that was a little too tough and wound up

blowing his own title shot. So he got a title shot because he beat Trevor Bryan for an absurd WBA title that should not exist. So he didn't even belong in the ring. If you somehow get to that point anyway, you got to make the most of that opportunity for 12 rounds. And to say that I kind of shut it down after that because I felt like there was too much working against me. I mean, it's really hard to sympathize with someone who says something like that.

And frankly, I don't know if he has the fortitude to become a champion because, look, he went, he went down on what wasn't all that hard of a punch. And from what I could tell toward the end of the eighth round, use the maximum allowable time. And he winds up getting up. It looked like he was trying to do the same thing in the ninth round, which again, doesn't exactly cloque Luis Pobone and glory either because he was up at nine and he stopped the fight. Now, he very well might have gotten knocked out because there was well over a minute left when he got up. But he did beat the count, which is the exact same thing he did at the end of the eighth round. So I'm not really sure why he stopped it.

At the same time, it didn't really look like Dan and Dubois wanted to be there anymore. No, and as far as the stoppage, I always feel like whenever a guy gets up at nine doesn't really want a fight. You know, you should know in your mind that when you hear eight, that's when you get up. That's when you actually want it. That's when you're taking the full amount of a lot of time. Nine to me is your way of getting up, but leaving that kind of window open for you to be able to say later that you wanted to continue. I saw nothing in the eyes of Danny Dubois that made me believe he wanted to continue. He went down on a jab, Keith, on that punch.

He looked like he was finished in that moment. And Dubois said some weird things after the fight. the whole, like I hit him square in the stomach. No, you didn't. Like, at best, it was a legal punch that was, was borderline. Um, what else was he saying? He just, he just was, was not, didn't feel like he was connected to reality towards the, the end of that. And look, yeah, it's kind of funny, listening to Frank Warren kind of talk out of both sides of his mouth right now, because on one hand, Frank Warren's trying to make a fight between Usick and Tyson Fury. In the other hand, he's, you know, talking about filing grievances or whatever it is.

to get that overturned into a no contest and get a rematch for Danny Dubois. But nothing I saw, Keith, makes me believe anyone would order a rematch. I mean, this footage has been dissected more than the Zapruder film. And nobody can come to a consensus about whether or not it was a low blow.

I mean, Tony Bellew, Carl Frampton, they say it was definitely a low blow. My pal, Sergio Mora, among others, say absolutely not, it was not a low blow. So the fact that you, you can't get anything definitive here tells me that nobody's going to order a rematch based on that evidence. Whichever side you're on, Chris, I think one thing we can all agree on, this was not some

kind of egregious Andrew Galata type low blow. That's not what happened Saturday. I mean, if you want to say it was like slightly low and a little below the belt or whatever, okay, but it's not one of those, you know, when Galada was literally trying to punch as a riddick bow. Or you look, use a more recent example, Keith. FAA a jog butt, his fight just this past week. He was getting drilled with the... Those were egregious.

Could you imagine if you were guiding John Kassabutski's career, and he gets to a point in a fight that he could win. He could be F.A. Jogba. F.A. Jogba has shown a lot of vulnerability and a lack of killer instinct and a multitude of other weaknesses. He could have won that fight, and then he... I know that we're going to talk about this anyway, but then he would eventually fight Jared Anderson.

And he basically threw away his career. He was 19 and 0 with 18 knockouts, and basically found a way out of a, not basically, he found a way out of a fight that he felt like he was not being treated fairly in, as opposed to trying to knock F.A. Jogba out or however else he could win the fight by legal means. Yeah, I just, I think that, to spin it back to Usoc and Dubois, I just think that you're not going to get anyone to rule that this fight should,

there's not enough evidence to overturn anything. No. Like this is, this fight's going to stand. The outcome's going to stand. nobody's going to overrule. I think the other thing I was going to say about Dubois was something you brought up, which was how he said he lost focus after the non-knockout in that fifth round. I mean, that to me is just another excuse.

Like, you had four more rounds. Like, you know, for the rest of that fifth round, you could have pursued Ussick even further. You had more rounds to do it. Instead, in the eighth round, you went down, the ninth round you went down. I thought that was a cop-out for Dubois to say that. that he lost focus there. I just, you know, I think he's a good fighter. I think he's shown, you know, for, in his high profile fights, he's not a great fighter. And maybe that changes. Young enough, he's going to get another chance. Maybe we see him in a bigger fight down the road.

But for right now, I think that's the outcome of that fight is going to stay and be what it is. I touched briefly on Fury versus Usses. Yeah, Philip Herkovich lurking out there as a mandatory challenger. His team all say they're going to enforce his rights at the IBF orders. that mandatory fight. Meanwhile, Tyson Fury is scheduled to fight October 28th against Francis Nagano. Obviously, everybody wants to see Fury versus Usik in a tile unification fight. Do you think Usik's going to have to go through Hergovich to get there? Or do you think there'll be some wiggle room here for negotiation to commence between Fury and Usik once again? Depends on who's willing to budge, Chris, because unless someone does, they're going to be right

back in the same predicament they were in earlier this year. You know, Fury certainly feels like he does even though he has one title and Usoc has, well, four, three that are really recognized, I suppose. He feels like he not necessarily deserves more, but he wants at least as much as Tyson Fury. And now Usoc has gone and proven that he can pack a stadium too. And it wasn't even in his home country for obvious reasons. But he has proven that he can sell tickets as well. So it's not only a matter now, Tyson Fury has sold 94,000 terror, helped sell 94,000 tickets. it's at Wembley Stadium. And there's no question at this point that Tyson Fury is an enormous star.

But unless they can come together and reach some sort of agreement, they're going to be in the exact same spot. And then if Usook wants to fight, again, of course, the IBF is next in the rotation, Philip Hergovich is their mandatory challenger, looks like he would have virtually no chance to beat. Even what I saw as a lesser Husik than the one that beat Anthony Joshua or twice in my opinion from what I saw on Saturday. Again, Dubois is a talented, physically talented guy. I just don't think has it mentally to win that type of fight. But I think that Ussick was there for the taking on Saturday night.

He just didn't capitalize on that. Maybe, like you said, he couldn't focus after whatever crazy things he said after losing the fight. Usik was there to be beaten. As far as I could tell, he was there to be beaten on Saturday night. and Daniel Dublob blew that opportunity. So I think that would make, not that Fury didn't want to fight him to begin with, but I think that would make Fury want to fight him even more

because he sees, you know, he's an, obviously he's a lot smaller, but maybe age, and Fury is not much younger than the New Sick, so it's not a matter of like some really young guy trying to come and beat up an old guy, but maybe he sees enough physical slippage in him where he knows maybe he could make some of those financial sacrifices

and get him at the right time and go fully unify all the heavyweight titles and probably retire after that, I would think. Which, well, by the way, if you've been watching the Tyson Fury Netflix documentary, Tyson Fury, I don't think is ever going to retire, ever. He's going to be fighting. He's going to say he's retiring until we're all dead probably, but yeah. And correct me from wrong, but the Fury Usik negotiations fell apart over a rematch clause, right? Like, they were okay on the initial, I mean, I guess there was some back and forth because

Saudi Arabia first and then it's in in the UK but it was more towards the end it was about a rematch clause this is it's a long way of saying I think this fight can be resuscitated and I agree with you if you're Tyson Fury and you're watching Usik Dubois you're thinking to yourself look Danny Dubois gave himself a shot to win with a decent borderline body shot there I'm better than Daniel Dubois I should be able to do handle that version of alex and Usik at least that's got to be what you're telling yourself uh if you're your Tyson Fury in that fight I just I have have no interest whatsoever in Hergevich versus Usik. I mean, Herkovich, the shines really come off him over the last couple of fights. The Zaley-Zang fight could have gone either way. His last fight,

Dempson McKeehan, like, whatever. Like, that wasn't all that. It was just a ho-hum, you know, kind of performance. So I'm, you know, I, guys like Herkovich, if you get in line and you put yourself in a mandatory position, sure, you should get an opportunity to fight for a world title. But I would definitely like to see the IBF, see everybody, allow some of the, negotiations to take place so we can potentially get Usik versus Fury in the first quarter of 2004. All right. I want to talk about Terrence Crawford, who has been on a victory tour since his knockout win over Errol Spence Jr. last month. And while we wait to see if Spence plans to exercise his rematch clause, Crawford has been openly talking about the possibility of facing

Canelo Alvarez in his next fight. Here's Crawford discussing it on the three knockdown rule this week. would be my opportunity to show everybody how great Terrence Cruffer really is. If Canelo win that fight and accept my

challenge and I come up to 168 and challenge him for undisputed in his weight and that fight happened then, you know, man, I'm going to just show everybody.

you know, that skills pay the bills, and I got the skills to do it all in that ring. So, Keith, I love this fight. I love it so much. I have no interest in, you know, beating up on the Charlo Brothers tour. I have no interest in, I really have no interest in a rematch between Crawford and Spence. I do have great interest in seeing if Crawford can move up to 168 and beat Canelo Alvarez, if Canelo gets through Jamel Charlo later on in September. I guess let's phrase the question this way.

Do you think this fight's realistic? I mean, Crawford is a line with PBC now. Canelo is a line with PBC now. We still don't know who Canello would face in the second fight of his deal. We know Eddie Renoso has been saying, Jamal Charlo is the target, but Jamal Charlo, who the hell knows what's going on with him? Is Crawford Canello realistic for some time in the first half of 2024?

But it depends on who you ask. If you ask Terrence Crawford, it absolutely is. If you ask Canelo Alvarez, it absolutely isn't. So Canello feels like if he fights Crawford and he wins the fight, he'll get no credit because he'll have fought a guy who moved up three-way classes because he said unequivocally he is not moving down to 160 to 162 to 160. He's not moving down. So the fight would have to be at 168, which Crawford says that he is okay with doing, which, and that takes a lot of balls. I mean, not that I didn't take. I mean, Terence Coff, I didn't have that to begin with. But, I mean, that's really saying something to move up three weight classes.

I guess you could look at it this way, Chris. There was a time. Now, the fight was offered to Canello to fight Errol Spence at once, I think it was 164, I believe. And that fight was offered to him, and he didn't do it. And he, I think I remember him saying also, well, I'm not really going to get credit because he's a welterweight moving up and all that kind of. But he didn't completely dismiss it, I guess. I mean, it was something that, well, who knows what could happen in the future.

So I guess if you look at it that way, well, if he could have fought Errol Spence, he could fight the guy who beat up Errol Spence, you would think, right? But Canello has been pretty adamant about this, that he is not going to fight Crawford because he just thinks that it's, you know, it's a bridge too far for Crawford, and he's not going to get credit for doing it and kind of what is the purpose of him doing it because he can make a lot of money fighting other guys. maybe he's got his heart set on us

because of course he feels like he's beating Jermal Charlo who no questions asked who that second opponent would be maybe he's got his mind made up as it relates to that. Of course he's not sharing that with us but maybe he feels he knows

who that second opponent is and he's not going to entertain Crawford and then Crawford could be bound to this rematch with Spence anyway which could take you through the beginning of 2024 and then you know but you know Kinella's probably not going to fight

until May anyway so or it would align that way. I would like to be more positive about it, Chris, because just for the sake of history, I'd love to see if Terrence Crawford could pull that off. I mean, every time they say Terrence Crawford can't do something, it goes and does it. I mean, this is a big ask.

I mean, to move up 21 pounds to go beat Canelo is a big ask. But he might have another. What if Jamel Charlo wins? And I know that you feel that he has zero. chance to win. I understand that. Let's just say he wins. Well, then you then you have the guy who beat Canello who has this rivalry with Crawford and is a stablemate of Earl Spence. Well, then you really got some drama there, right? And, and Jamel Charlo, I would think, wouldn't demand that he comes up to 168 pounds. And then Crawford only has to come up, well, how much ever weight they decide on.

He would come up. Well, then you have, Canello is still the biggest star in boxing. I'm not as something that as it relates to who Crawford could fight. And it would be a much bigger fight if he fought Canello because Cinello again, the biggest star in American boxing. But imagine if Charlo wins, well, he'd have to beat Canelo twice because there's a rematch clause in the contract. So let's start with that. He's got to beat him twice. So Crawford will have to fight someone in between if that were to happen. But I don't think that if Canello, the favorite fighter does win, I don't think that Terrence Crawford is going to be Canello's next opponent as part of his three fights. deal with PBC. Well, thanks for throwing some cold water on that, Keith. Good to talk to.

I'm here to bring reality to the podcast, my friend. Come on. I, well, hey, speaking of reality, I don't believe Jamel Charle can win. I don't, I've said this before. I'll say it again. I see no pathway to victory for him. I saw a guy that got beat up pretty good by Brian Castano. I think Canello is levels better than Brian Castano. And I think Conno is going to do to him what Castano couldn't. And I think he's going to finish him off in that fight. You make a good point about the rematch clause. So, you know, we'd have to wait summer, fall of 2024 to potentially get Crawford against Charlo. But if Canelo wins, use the word credit.

Does Canelo get more credit for fighting Jamal Charlo in his next fight versus fighting Terrence Crawford? Because we'd be talking about a Jamal Charlo that would be at that point close to three years removed from his last fight. If you fast forward to May of 2024, who has not looked impressive in the previous fights he's had. Would he really get less credit for fighting Terrence Crawford than he would Jamal Charlo? It's a good point, Chris. But one, I don't think that if Jamal Charlo will fights him next, he will go directly into that fight. I think they will find some sort of tune-up

for him on Showtime or something. He can't go, you know, he can't come off what would be, like you said, almost three full years out of the ring and fight Canello. Of course, you would have the grudge, let's say he beats Jamel. You have the grudge match aspect. He's coming to a avenge his brothers lost. But if you hear Jermel talk, they're not even on speaking terms now. So I don't know what that matters exactly. You know, I mean, things aren't good between them. Their, his girlfriend and his wife got into a fight that they spent outside of the arena. And when Jermel was doing press, the two city press tour and he was doing a whole bunch of interviews and stuff, he said he had not, at that point, had not spoken to Jermal since that happened.

and I think maybe two or three weeks had gone by from that point he hadn't spoken to his brother. And regardless, I don't think that Jamal Charlo would go directly into the Canelo fight if Canelo beats Jamel Charlo and is looking to fight Jamal next. Having said that, who knows how he's going to look in that fight? Because he didn't look particularly good against Juan Macias Montiel, who was blown out by Carlos Saddamas. So I don't know how anyone could say with any certainty what to make of the, Jamal Charlo at this point in his career.

If he comes back and he scores an impressive knockout, at least he would establish some sort of momentum going into that fight. But if it's not him and it's not Crawford, I mean, I really, I don't know who Conella would fight in that second fight because it's not going to be Benevides or the winner of Benavides-Andrade fight, and it's certainly not going to be David Morel, so I don't know who it would be. but yeah I see what you're saying though

because no one knows what's left their Jamal Charlo at this point so how could you say you would get more credit for that than beating who I believe is the number one pound-fpound fighter in boxing and I think most people should believe that at this point it's a good point but he again would have to come up 21 pounds

and weight so that's a huge factor you know Kenello used to he's got he's a very hard puncher and he's used to absorbing punches at that weight. And he and he fought at light heavyweight twice and didn't budge. So, you know, again, it's a huge ask of Terrence Crawford, but it would be a fascinating event, you know, fascinating fight to see if Crawford could do it. But I just don't, based on the way Canello is talking about it, I just don't see it happen. You know, I think we, just speaking in broad, we, we have to come off the idea that

Crawford, you know, would be, everybody would downplay a win over Crawford. Maybe people would after the fact. But I just, I can't get excited about a Jamal Charlo fight, even if Charlo is coming off a win over a Machek-Silesky type. I can't get excited about that. Like, of the available opponents out there, and I'm excluding Benavides and excluding Morel, because as you point out, he's probably not going to fight them in May of 2024. for. Terence Crawford, I think, is the most marketable opponent. And I think the opponent that he'd probably get the most credit for because Terrence Crawford is the number one pound for pound guy now. And Canelo Alvers, it could be sold as former number one pound for pound still believes he's at

the top, now fighting the guy who is at the top. I just think there's so many ways to market it, so many ways to sell it. And if profit really is willing to do what he says he's willing to do, and I have no reason to doubt him, then that to me is just a phenomenal fight to make. I'm interest to see what happens in the aftermath of the Jermel versus Canelo fight and exactly how the pieces kind of fall into place. I guess the other thing we have to ask is, you know, is Spence going to exercise that rematch clause? Because if he does, this isn't an entirely moot point, right? Like, do you believe Spence is going to exercise that immediate rematch clause for either later this year or early next year?

Well, I've been hearing conflicting things, I would say. I mean, he wants it from a pride standpoint. Obviously, he wants to his get back. And there are people that I've spoken to fighters, managers, trainers that think that it would be a more competitive fight at 154 pounds. Who knows? Of course, it took a lot out of him to get down to 147 pounds, but I don't think that's the only thing that went wrong for him on 29. That's what he's going to tell himself, obviously, as a competitor and as someone who's never been in this predicament before having to come off a devastating, lopsided loss like that, of course he's going to say that. I don't know that it would be all that different, to be

honest with you, but Chris, I just want to circle back to one thing you said related to Canelo, because I agree with a lot of what you said about marketing the fight and the former pound for pound king against the current pound for pound king. And that all makes perfect sense. But let's just say the Canelo Charlo fight goes the way that you expect it to go. And Canello wins convincingly. Okay, he just beat a 54 pounder. His next fight's going to be against a 47 pounder. And then let's just say he beats him. Who was he going to fight next? Tank? Like, like, at a certain point, people are going to say, well, why do you keep fighting guys where all these weight classes below you?

Now, Terence Crawford, in my opinion, is better than Jermal Charlo, but you're not going to keep going down. And also if you're Al Heyman and Showtime and you're trying to maximize this multi-fight deal with Canelo, I mean, continually having him fight guys in lower weight classes, I don't think is the way to really captivate the public. The Crawford fight is, it's an anomaly for obvious reasons, right? So, but coming off, let's just say he beat Charlo convincingly, then go to the, the undisputed champion in the lower weight class.

I don't know if you can sell that. You know, it's 21 pounds. If they fought it 160 pounds, if they fought at 160, I might buy it more, but 21 pounds. I mean, oof. You think, but you think you, a Jamal Charlo fight is more marketable then. No, I don't want to say. I honestly don't want to say, like I said earlier,

no one could conceivably say that they know what to make of Jamal Charler at this point. I'm not saying that's what you want. I'm just saying that the, it would be fascinating. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it. I'm just saying does it make sense from a business standpoint for them to do that next, particularly if he, if he beats Charlo in a way that you and some other people seem to think that he will.

I don't think that that's, I'm not saying he's going to lose. I'm not saying Conno's going to lose, but I think that's a real fight. So I'll say this. If you're rooting, not you specifically, but anyone wants to see Crawford fight Canello, you really should root for the Charlo Canello fight to be competitive. Because if it isn't, I don't see how you sell against a smaller guy. You could do.

What do you do to maximize? Danny Du Bois just thought, Alexander Usick in front of the 50,000 people. I mean, you can do whatever you want, I guess. You talk about maximize, though, Keith. Like, what does maximize that second fight? I mean, if we kind of assume that Benavides could be there as the third fight of that deal, like, what is an ideal situation for your PBC and your al-Haman?

I don't see it out there. Like, you almost have to, like, you know, enlist like Jaime Mungia from Golden Boyer or somebody outside the BBC universe, because inside, you know, cross your fingers and hope Demetrius, Andrade wins? Like, I don't know. I don't know what the, the, the opponent is for him there. And that's been a problem for months now, right? We've been talking about this for a while, whether it's going to be Jamal Charlo or somebody else. That second slot has been something of a mystery for, since Canelo announced this deal. And I don't know exactly where he goes in there. I just get, I would, even though there's a 21 pound weight gap, I would get really excited to see Canello

versus Crawford. And I think a lot of people out there would too. Now, after the fact, we may say, you beat up on a smaller guy, but going into that fight, I think there would be more interest in Canello versus Crawford than there would be in Canello versus anyone else, including David Benavides, I think. Now, we might sit there and agree that Benavita is a tougher fight, but in terms of marketability, I don't think Benavides Canelo does better than Canello versus Crawford.

I just think it's on two different levels marketing-wise. I'm not sure about the Benavides one, Chris. suck because, you know, there's no, there's nothing to disparage the Benavitas, Canelo a fight. Benavita is actually bigger. You know, obviously they're in the same weight class, but he's the bigger guy. He's the younger guy. But in terms of known commodities, right? Like, people know proffered now. Yeah, but again, I don't think you can discount the 21 pound weight advantage that Canello would have, whereas Benavitas would be viewed as the young killer, the bigger. And I'm not saying Benavides wins that fight. I'm just,

saying he's a naturally bigger, taller guy who, you know, who's on the come up and he's been fighting as a professional for a very long time for someone who's 26 years old, but he's 26 years old. So, you know, I don't know that, I don't, that's a good question.

I think Crawford because of where, like you said, where his market ability is coming off this incredible win and the surge he has enjoyed over the last few weeks, it would do good business. There's no two ways about it. Look, anything with Canelo is going to do good business, right?

And it would do much better business than most with Crawford and Vaugh. So you make a good point. But I don't know if it would, the Benavides fight, people really want to see that. And you know how it goes on both sides of it. People build up all this nonsense that doesn't exist. Like Canello's running from Benavides. He's like, you know, I mean, the guy's bought everybody, and I think he'll eventually wind up fighting Benavides.

I mean, it's a good narrative for Benavides's camp to play off of while you're waiting for this fight. But Demetrius Andrade's not an easy fight, you know? Look out. Look out. Look out for Demetrius Andrade. I'm not quitting this podcast of Andrew Beets Benavides. Jesus Christ. Oh, look out for my guy, Demetrius Andrade.

Live dog in that fight against Benavides. He's going to do some things in that fight that I think will make Benavides look bad. May not win, but I think he's going to acquit himself well in that fight. That's a conversation for when we get closer to that fight. actually being finalized. I want to ask you, Keith, about Jared Anderson, what we saw from him this past weekend. Picked up his second win in the last two months, stopping Andre Redenko. Anderson, one of the best heavyweight prospects in all of boxing, maybe the best heavyweight prospect in boxing. He's ranked in the top 10 by three of the four sanctioning bodies, being moved

pretty well and being moved pretty fast by top rank. When you look at his future, we mentioned, we mentioned FAA Jagba. I think that would be a pretty interesting fight for Jared Anderson. But how close are we getting to Jared Anderson getting a significant fight? Well, I guess we'd have to define significant fight because Usik and Furier are off the table, right? I mean, those guys, he's not, I don't think he's ready for that necessarily. And I don't think he's in position to make that happen right now based on what they have going on. So who, so yeah, then who does he fight who's not too dangerous? Because look, he can tell you all he wants that he wasn't hurt by Charles Martin. He was hurt, not once. He was hurt twice by Charles Martin. In the fifth round, the middle minute of the fifth round,

he was buzzed by the left hand, and he responded very well to it. And maybe it was a little lack of focus toward the end of the 10th round, but he got rocked with another left hand, where if Charles Martin had another 20 or 30 seconds to try to follow up on that, the conclusion might have been different. So he was hurt twice, and there's no shame in getting hurt by Charles. Charles Martin's a huge puncher. I mean, you know, people think what they think about Charles Martin based on the Anthony Joshua fight. But he's a huge puncher. Big guy almost had Luis Ortiz out. And it has been a solid heavyweight.

So it was a good comeback win for Jared Anderson. You know, he did what he was supposed to do with with Dico, who had never really been stopped, stop. You know what I mean? So it was a good win for Jared Anderson and exactly what he needed. And he came back on only seven weeks, you know, only seven weeks after he fought the toughest fight of his career. I went 10 rounds for the first time, so give him credit for that. So who does he fight, Chris, really? I mean, because they were, look, from the top rank perspective, they were at, if it wasn't

next, it was going to be the following fight. He was going to fight Zan Kassabutski if Kassabutski beat FAA Jogba. Now, obviously people would say, well, then why can't you just make FAA Jogba against Jared Anderson? Well, because they have the same management team, they're friendly. And I know people hate hearing the friendship stuff because, you know, the, you know, the, that's the boxing business basically, right? And a lot of friends have fought each other.

But they do have the same management team looking out for their interests and everything. And they both have kind of said that they're not going to fight each other. So the fact that Kasabutski did just utterly baffling things on Saturday night and through his career down the drain for the most part. So they don't have that built-in guy with top rank for Jared Anderson to fight right now. So it's going to be interesting to see who, because he's going to fight probably one time before the end of the year. And if he does that, it's going to be interesting to see because Kasabutsky is no longer available to him. And FAA Jagua is not for the reasons I just mentioned.

Where do you go? Right. Do you bring a British heavyweight over? I don't know. I don't know who you bring over to fight him. Probably have to. I mean, you probably have to. You have to look overseas where there are some heavyweight options. I mean, I don't know if he's ready for like a Joseph Parker. I'd love to see that fight, maybe a little bit too far at this point for Jared Anderson. That's a really good, I think, heavyweight fight. Here's one for you. Chris, how about this? Okay. Jolet Jong beats Joe Joyce again on September 23rd, which well could happen. Frank Warren is Jolajon's promoter who works with Bob Aaron. Would they put, would they put after what happened with another strong Southpaw, another older, strong southpaw, would they put Jared Anderson in the ring

for an opportunity to win one of the interim titles and then become a mandatory? And would they pay Jolet Jong enough money to make that happen? I would like to see that. Let me tell you something. Do respect to Jared Anderson, but if Jolajong beats Joe Joyce again, I wouldn't make Jared Anderson a favor in that fight. No. I think Jle Jong is.

I mean, I think he's too strong. and you can't knock Lejean out. Like, he's just too big. And he's got too good a chance. I know this is talk for a few weeks down the road because the fight is September 23rd. But this guy's been training in New Jersey for 10 years. And Lou Dova told me a very long time ago, there's something special about this guy. And he's going to be a world champion.

He's not really a world. He'll himself. He's got a pretty good sense of humor. He doesn't speak any English, but he does. And he, you know, he knows that he's not a real, real world champion. But he's on the cusp of making. something pretty special happen. And, you know, people think negative things about him because of what happened in a Jerry

Forrest fight and they feel that he faded against Hergevich when he probably could have won that fight and everything. But look, the top rank matchmakers are entirely too smart for that. I'm not saying that they're going to sign off on Jared Anderson fighting DeLajong, even though he's 40 years old at this point. I'm not saying they're going to do that. I'm just saying it would be an appealing option if we're looking for appealing options. I agree.

I'd love to see that fight. and Jared Anderson would have to box in that fight because you're not putting Jay Le Jong down. I mean, I was there for the forest fight where it was not to rehash it, but that was a whole confluence of bad events for Jay Li Zhang that led to him looking as bad as he did. I thought he won the Hergevich fight. It was close. I thought he won it. And, you know, just seeing him land those straight lefts on Joe Joyce and busting up his face, that's who Jay Lejean is. He has got blunt power with that left hand that he has got a good chin. That would be an incredibly appealing fight.

And, you know, good for top rank, good for Jared Ares. If they did go in that direction. But that certainly is one to watch after the Joyce Zhang fight later on in September. Last thing for you, Keith, I want to just, we saw the WBC order something recently. I want to drop this on you real quick. Shakur Stevenson Frank Martin, when I saw that, you know, I don't want to get excited about a potential big fight when two fighters are promoted by rival entities and fight on opposing platforms. But correct me if I'm wrong,

but I think there's a purse bid schedule for what next week? And I'm dying to see if who goes through with it. I mean, I've checked in with a few people on both sides. I don't think there's any certainty on if this comes to a purse bid, if we'll get, you know, both sides going through with that purse bid. But Shakur Stevenson, Frank Martin, on paper, tremendous fight. What are the chances you think we get that fight for the WBC lightweight title? Well, I really hope we do, Chris, because it's a, look, it's, it's, in terms of what's available,

it's about as good as Shakur Stevenson's going to do next, right? Because Devin Haney's moving up to 140, excuse me, the tank fight is not going to, obviously not going to happen next. It's a pretty good fight, right? Martin didn't look good. Wait, let me back to him. He didn't look as good in his last fight as he did in his previous fight against Michelle Rivera.

And he was in with a guy who had a lot of experience, a lot of Olympic experience, an amateur experience and everything. And he'd learn something from it. And the shine is a little off of him, maybe, you know, based on how good he looked against Michelle Rivera. But he'll give Shakur Stevenson a real fight. Now, Shakur, I think, is on another level and would win. But I would much rather see that than see Shakur fight an in-house guy. And Germaine Ortiz is very good. But, you know, just had all this trouble making weight and everything.

and probably shouldn't be rewarded for that by fighting Shakur Stevenson next. But I would rather see that than an in-house top-rank fight. So let's see how they go about it. It's a very costly fight. For whoever wins that purse bid, you have to pay a lot of money because Shikor-Stevenson's minimums are high. And it was my understanding that they were when they were negotiating before the WBC ordered the purse bid, which is scheduled for September 5th, the Tuesday after Labor Day. They were far enough apart on money to ascertain a purse bid, I guess, to satisfy Frank Martin's side of it.

The fight would be if Top Frank promotes the fight, it would be on ESPN on a Thursday night of all nights on a Thursday night in November before the Formula 1 Grand Prix race in Vegas the next two days, or three days after that, I believe it is. It's an interesting fight. I would favor Shakur and I would favor Shakur Stevenson against, you know, most lightweights. I would love to see him fight Tank Davis at some point. That really, that's a pick-um to me. But I would favor Shakur against most anybody else in the lightweight division, including Frank Martin, but it's a very good fight. As far as lightweight opponents go, Frank Martin would be, you know, the best that Shakur has faced up until this point. It would just be a really compelling matchup of two undefeated young 135 pounders.

This is the kind of cross-promotional fight that boxing needs to make more of. And it's one of those situations, too, Keith, where it's like, you know, if that purse bid happens and there is a result, somebody wins. If you walk away from that fight, the other guy has a chance to call you a ducker. The guy can say you're ducking. There was a purse bid. Your promoter had a chance to put up a bunch of. bunch of money to win that purse bid. I believe, is the split 50-50

for something like that? That's a good question, because I'm trying to remember where Mark. I forgot. But either way, they'd be, they'd make a boatload of money. You'd get to be in a Marquis fight. I'd love to see it. I think that's a terrific fight between two top guys

at 135, undefeated. I love what I've seen for Frank Martin. That last fight notwithstanding, I think that was, I don't think that was an example of the real Frank Martin. I think the Michelle Rivera fight was probably the more a look at the real Frank Martin where Shakur's been great every single time he's been out. So I'm all in. No, it's an excellent fight, Kristen.

Like you said, we could use more. And top rank has shown, and when necessary, EBC has sent fighters over there as well as opponents and such. And in this case, Frank Martin would have to be considered the opponent. I mean, Shakur is the star, and Frank Martin would be the underdog in the fight. So it could be worth PBC's wild because they want a big fight for Frank Martin and they wouldn't have to pay for it if it goes, if it went on the ESPN side. From top rank's perspective, they would have to bid a lot of money because they could not afford from a public relations standpoint. So lose Shakur Stevenson even for a fight to PBC if they were to get out bid by Al Heyman and, you know, TGB and what, you know, which would represent.

present Al at the curse bid. You don't think it's worth it. You don't like, I mean, not that it's the same thing. To let him fight on him? I remember when, well, I mean, for one fight, like, I remember when Lomachenko fought Gary Russell. I know it's not the same thing that was very early in Lomachenko's career, but that fight was on Showtime and that was at the time kind of the marquee win of

Lomachenko's career. I just, I don't think the top rank, I don't think it's catastrophic if for one fight, Chaucer Stephenson goes over, you know, gets a win and comes back to ESPN and top I just don't know that it's so damaging to their brand. Maybe not catastrophic, but they will not want that to happen, obviously, because because they have the financial wherewithal to make sure that it stays on ESPN. So I think they would do everything in their power to make that happen. But then it's like you don't know how much the other, in this case, you don't know how much

the other side is willing to bid because it would be a coup, a minor coup, I guess, for the PBC Showtime side of it, the still, also, of course, Stevenson away from Pop, in SPN for one fight. Yeah. By the way, Chaucor Stevenson and Devin Haney, just stop. Just stop.

Like, some of this stuff's getting gross with the two of them going back and forth. Like bringing families in. Somebody's out there making secret footage of Bill Haney talking about some point about Chikor.

I mean, just stop. You guys are going to fight eventually in the ring, whether it's at 140, 147, the two of you can't avoid each other forever. I've just, I got, I rolled my eyes at some of that stuff

I saw between Chikor and Devin Haney over that. the last couple of days, Keith. I don't know how much you saw that, but that was, that was a lot. That was a lot to digest. I roll my eyes on a lot of what I see on social media, my friends, so, you know, by the way, Devin Haney, Regis Prograte, you think that's going to happen? Who knows at this point, you know? Who knows? Is there enough money there to satisfy both guys? I mean, who knows? I hope so. I hope so. That's a great fight at 140. Keith Ideck does a great job covering boxing over at boxing scene.com. Follow him on Twitter.

at IDEC Box. And Keith, always appreciate the time, my friend. I appreciate it, Chris. Have a good one, man. And when we come back, my conversation with Michaela Mayer. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand-new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what we? went down and tried to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Michaela Mayer is the former unified 130-pound champion on Saturday. She will be above 140 pounds, which takes on Sylvia Bortat in a 142-pound catchweight fight in Manchester, England. That's a fight you can watch in the U.S. on ESPN Plus. Third straight fight in the UK, Michaela, are you a full-time British fighter now? No, I hope to be back in America soon, but for the time being, I'm enjoying fighting over here. There's obviously a reason behind it.

There's a plan in place. People might not be able to see it now, but there is a plan being worked out. There's deals being negotiated for this fight. I know I'm fighting Silver Bortat, not a big name, not a name everyone's heard of, But this is, and I'll be honest, it is a stay busy fight. You know, it's at a catch weight 142. It's no secret that I'm moving up. My goal is to go 147.

So this is a fight for me to experience that at a heavier weight, experience being in the ring at a heavier weight, you know, start adjusting to being at a higher weight class and staying busy until I can get the big fight that I want. Does the big plan involve someone with a name that sounds like Nahasha Honus? Yeah, yeah, yes, it is. It does sound similar to that. And because I do want to go straight for the big fights. I've had all the experience that I need. You know, 18 pro fights now. So if I'm going to a new weight class, I want to be taking on the best sooner than later.

You know, I don't want to be fighting names that people don't know. I want to give the fans big fights. So Natasha Jonas to me is, I think, the most. a reasonable fight that I feel like I can get done in due time. You have you have Sammy or Sammy what the fuck. You have, um, Terry Harper is there. Sandy. Sandy Ryan.

You have Sandy Ryan facing McCaskill next month. Um, so that sort of is off the table right now. They're focused on that. Um, and then, uh, so yeah,

that's that leaves Natasha Jonas and, and that's, but I don't want first. So talk to me about the weight. You fight in April, you beat Lucy Wildheart. That was at 135, your first fight moving up to 135. This fight at 142 and with plans to move to 147. What went into that decision to jump all the way up to welterweight at some point in the next six months? Because fighting at 135 felt no different. The body fell out a little bit. I got a little bit comfortable because I'm like, okay, I'm going up five pounds. But my body said, nope. like you need to go up more. I was just filled out so fast and it became just as hard to cut down to 135. It was like no different.

And I noticed the same thing after the 135 fight. It's like my muscles just filled out from all the work. And whereas before it's like I couldn't let my body fill out. I had to constantly stay down because I knew that I had to bend my belts at 130. And so after the wild heart fight, I filled out again. And I was like, holy shit. I was starting 160 where it's like I never even hit that number before. So it was really just my body saying, like, you can't do this anymore.

And I didn't realize how necessary it was until I got into this last camp, and I felt so good. Like, I felt so fueled and strong and throughout the entire camp in sparring. And usually there's a point in sparring and training camp where I was just, like, completely done, and I was just basically surviving. I was just trying to stay conditioned, stay sharp, get the, get the few weeks to go by, get the sparring sessions in, get all my runs in, and get down to 1.30. And it's like I wasn't reaping the benefits of all my heart of work because it wasn't refueling properly or enough. You know, I was having to stay really lean and thin. And if you can remember, at 130, I always had the conditioning.

I mean, I trained that energy system so well because I constantly had to run, run, run, run, in order to make 130 is running every day, intervals, sprints, distances, everything, all kinds of runs to get down to 1130. And what that did is it made my conditioning really well, but that's only one energy system. I wasn't able to train for that explosive. and that strength and that pop. And so that's something that I've done differently now. I don't have to just run long distances. I can focus more on the other energy system and be more explosive.

So that's the goal now. And you've posted a lot about your workouts at the UFC Performance Institute. Like what are some of the things you are doing now or can do now because you're not forcing yourself down to 130? It's just less running and more performance training when it comes to. the weight room and not just lifting heavy weights but um different type of of cardioes maybe like a small example that I can get that you just understand because I'm not the strength coach here he's the genius behind us I'm fucking in there doing it right oh sorry um but it they basically like

really short bursts really short burst of energy on of a sprinting like say on the bike um versus doing 10, 400 meter sprints three times a week. I was doing some serious runs like track stars would do. And it was just burning me out. Now I can focus on more explosive training. But like I couldn't do that before because I couldn't put on a lot of muscle. And I needed to run to get that weight down. You, you know, we've seen a lot of women or several women in the last couple of years make big jumps,

multiple weight class jumps, whether it is Natasha Jonas or Terry Harper, among others, they've had success in doing that. Has, have you watched that success kind of from afar? And has that given you any confidence when you prepare to make your own jump? 130, 135, those are really, really competitive weight classes. They were really competitive. And there was more opportunity to capture a belt at these higher weights. Now, a lot of these girls need to move up anyways.

I mean, you look at Terry Harper and it's like all of a sudden she was, ripped as hell. I mean, the legs that still had abs. And it's like, you knew her body was dying to move up, right? So I'm sure their body needed it, but also there's more opportunity to grab a belt there. I think that's changing now, though, the changing with the growth of women's boxing, I think 147 is going to be the next big division. I mean, you have all the girls going there. You have a lot of upcoming talent that's going to be there. Aal She Jones, Olympic, bronze medalist is going to be there. You have Lauren Price, who's coming in at 147. And then you have girls that are already there like Sandy Ryan and the caskill and tasha jonas and me and shantle

cameron is moving to 147 she's told me next this coming year after her katie rematch so i think that's the next big division for women's boxing it's the next 135 town division there's a ton of girls there a ton of experience there and that's where i want to be you have you know been pursuing katie taylor really since you came out of the amateurs there was hope in the Olympics that you two would face each other uh you've been hovering around the same weight class for most of your professional careers. Does this decision for you to move up? Does that feel like you're kind of putting that aside saying that's probably not going to happen. You're moving on. Yeah, because it's kind of sad to say because you are right. You know, I have always wanted that fight as

Katie Taylor. A lot of us women have, but I really believe that it was going to be a big fight for me in the pros. I really believe that it was going to happen. I think a lot of people did. And maybe I stayed at 132 long and I missed that opportunity because now that, that I'm up at 135 or when I was, when I moved to 135, you know, she's 37 now and has two rematch clauses in place, one with Chantelle and one with Toronto. And that put me out of a world title fight with her for at least a year, you know, and then who knows what she would do? I'm not saying she has to retire at 38 years old, but there's still a girl's worthless, us women are going a lot longer than anyone ever thought. But I don't know. She's had a long career.

She may decide to hang it up. So me stick around at 135, just hoping for that fight. It's just, it's not smart when I'm in my prime. I need to go where the opportunity is for me. And right now that's at 147. So that Katie Taylor fight may never happen. I know now I'm not going back to 135. It's just as hard as cutting. Like, it's still just as hard.

I can't do 135 anymore. So maybe that ship has sailed. But like I said, women's boxing has grown so much that there's, Katie Taylor's not the only big fight for me anymore. There's other women now. There's other huge fights out there for me. So that's what I'm going to go get done. So speaking of other women, we saw Daniel Dubois in action.

this past weekend. His sister, Caroline Dubois, is a rising prospect, fighting around 140 pounds, who I go on social media, and she's been calling you out over the last couple of months. Your thoughts on Caroline Dubois? Listen, Caroline Dubois is an up-and-coming fighter, really great, I have really great talent. I have nothing bad to say about her until she keeps calling me out when I've stated multiple times that I'm moving to 147. I'm not fighting at 135. She's going for the, for the IBL at 135, A world title, if you want to call the IBO world title, she's going for that at 135.

So at this point, you've stated clearly. You're staying at 135. I'm going to 147. I've stated that clearly. Let it go. She's come up with this whole rivalry in her head on her own. So it's not happening. That fight is not happening anytime soon.

Now, if she eventually wants to come up, she's young so she can work and build her way up to coming to 147, then we can talk about it. But like, it's literally not worth the conversation right now. She needs to focus on. on the champion in front of her, whatever, the championship fight she has. And this is maybe a fight down the road,

but I'm tired of hearing about it. All right, so let's talk about something that is worth talking about. About two weeks ago, Alicia Baumgartner tested positive for two banned substances. You lost a close decision to Baumgartner just last year, and have had what can charitably de-described as a pretty heated war of words before and after. Your reaction, Michaela Mayer,

to Alicia Baumgardner's positive tests. I'm not going to lie, I was shocked. I was shocked. And I'm disappointed because she's obviously, our rivalry aside, she's obviously had a great run these last couple of years. And, you know, her career was going like this. And she screwed up.

She screwed up big time. Because now everyone thinks that she, needed to cheat to get there. And her credibility is shot. It's gone. Not only that, but it doesn't matter the consequences she faces. It'll never

take back how it's affected this division, or the 130-pound division over the last couple of years. You know, it's affected a lot of people in a lot of different ways. And she can say that she wasn't, you know, maybe she wasn't on it for my fight or the Harry Harbor fight or all these fights,

but, you know, that's the problem. with this is that it's always going to be in question, right? People are always going to wonder. Her credibility is gone now. So we don't know. Um, but, you know, I don't, I guess she still has to, there's everyone has to go through due process and I guess we'll find out, uh, when they do the investigation, but I personally don't see how she's going to get away with it. I mean, it's not like she tested for some diuretic, right? These were like some serious hardcore PEDs and two of them. So, you know, good luck to her. I feel bad for her. I think her career is is fucked now, but I feel bad for her.

So she needs to go handle that. It's not my problem. It's her problem. It's my problem when it comes to boxing and keeping the sport pure because what pisses me off is everyone now is saying, oh, everyone's on that stuff. Oh, all the boxes are on it. Oh, everyone's juicy now. And that's not true.

There's plenty of us out here that are competing clean and honest. And I hope she faces proper repercussions. And we get stricter with all this testing and get something, you know, set across the board for all the athletes because there need to be. be some fear instilled. There needs to be some more fear instilled in these athletes when it comes to what they put in their bodies. You know, we've seen her last two opponents, Ellen Mechalad and Christina Linadar to go after on social media. I think a lot of people were expecting you to be first in line on that. What has kept you so reserved for so long on this particular subject?

Yeah, I'm sure everyone was expecting me to come out and say a whole bunch of stuff. And I did want to. Okay. You guys know me. And there was plenty. that I had to say. But I decided to bite my tongue. My coaches were wanting to me to also sort of waded out, stay quiet. Because everyone was expecting me to jump on, you know. Everyone was just expecting something from me. And they just thought it was best if I just sort of stayed quiet for a little while,

let things play out and see what unfolded. but I knew I wouldn't going to stay quiet and I knew that I had a fight coming up and I had a fight week

coming up and so I decided to tackle it during fight week I'm going to get asked about it all week I know I know I will and so I just decided

to wait for the platform to do it then and do it in that professional way because it's a serious issue and it's just not something that I want to be on Twitter

I was on Twitter to create a rivalry right? Everything I've ever said to mom and I'm going to do this is also create a rivalry to create a big fight to help the sport.

This isn't helping the sport. This is bad for this sport. This is damaging the sport. And so I think that it's something that I should address professionally. And I think it's something that she needs to address a lot more professionally as well. I mean, she's on Twitter tweeting the craziest thing. Someone get her a publicist ASAP. I mean, it's disrespectful to the sport.

And it's, she's coming off very diluted and narcissistic because she should be very concerned. She should be very worried. You know, this is a big deal. And she needs to be taking it seriously. So that was my approach to take it seriously and confront it with great people like you, Chris Mannix. You've been aggressively pursuing a rematch with Baumgartner over the last a year, roughly a year. If she decides to move up and wait and is around your weight class once again, does this positive test change anything for you? I'm not thinking about Baumgartner at all.

I think that she's screwed, at least for the next year. She's not going to be fighting. And I have other big plans. I have lots of big plans over the next year. You know, this past year for me has been a little slow. I know that, but I was regrouping. I was doing what I had to do to get myself back in position. And I plan to be back in position by next year.

And so she can worry about the problems she has because she got a lot of them right now. She can deal with that. And I don't necessarily see a fight between us happening anytime soon. Nor do I, I still have to consider if I would want one with someone who's a cheat. you know and if I want to give her that opportunity now. So it's not even on my mind. I got other fish to fry. Last thing for you,

and you kind of touched on this because it is becoming really problematic in boxing these positive tests, you know, from last year with Connor Ben and then you had Dillian White and then it's Baumgartner and, you know, Robert Hellenius tests positive after his fight with Anthony Joshua over in the UK. I've heard people like Derek Chasaurus, should say things like automatic 10-year ban, not just for the fighters, but for the trainers that work with them because they're just as responsible for stuff like this. I mean, that's

maybe a bit of on the extreme side. But is there a solution in your mind? Is there a punishment? I mean, you were part of the Olympic cycle. You were tested constantly as part of that. Is there a punishment that fits the crime, I guess, for testing positive or banned substances? it's definitely a discussion that needs to be had like right there needs to be we need to weigh some pros and cons here because whatever we're doing now isn't working it's not enough people are testing positive getting a slap on the wrist a six months ban what most people these days in boxing aren't even are only fighting once every six months anyway so what kind of punishment is that um there also needs to be something more across the board right so like if you're testing positive again for like something like a diuretic you're not going to get a 10-year ban. You're going to say, okay, let's, you know, I mean, it's something you obviously did to help you make the weight, not good. But getting popped for something as serious as what Bob Gardner got popped for,

we need to talk about those repercussions because, one, the science these days is pretty damn good, right? I mean, like, whatever she was taking, can you take back to your chemist and whoever's doing this for you, you change one or two molecules, and it's a completely different drug and you won't pop hot and more. So there's so many ways around testing positive. That, right, that, but also they don't test enough. You know, you can, some of this stuff can get flushed out of your system so quickly.

And that's what a lot of these athletes are doing. So there needs to be more testing for sure. I mean, this is what I can say for sure needs to happen. More testing across the board. I don't care how much it costs, right? If you can pay boxers millions of dollars, you can pay for some testing. and some fear, some, some, some, um, um, um, um, uh, punishment that's going to instill, like, real fear. Yeah, three, four year ban and, and you'll be, your career's done for some people,

you know, if you're not in your early 20s, your career is done. So, um, stricter, stricter repercussions and a lot more testing. Yeah, you're, you're obviously right because we're going to get to the point where somebody gets hurt. And after that fighter gets hurt, a person that hurts him is going to test positive. And that's going to be an entirely different story. It's going to be an uglier story. And that's obviously the one thing we want to avoid in boxing. Michaela, good to see you back above 140 pounds, 142 for this fight. Looking forward to that one and your chase for belts at 147. Appreciate your time. Thank you. I'll talk soon. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Keith Eideck and

Michaela Mayer for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast. Spotify, wherever you download podcast, and I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

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