The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Mannix vs. Mauricio

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

Joining Mannix this week is WBC president Mauricio Sulaimán. Mannix and Sulaimán debate the WBC's decision to allow Jermall Charlo to retain his middleweight belt, the use of the "franchise" title, why the WBC will "never" allow three minute rounds in women's boxing, Errol Spence's questioning of sanctioning fees and more; later, George Kambosos joins to talk what he learned from back-to-back losses to Devin Haney, finding new motivation, a rematch with Teofimo Lopez, more. #Herd #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. This is Boxing with Chris Mannix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network. Glad you could join me this week because we have a great show lined up for you. I mean a great show. great show. Maricio Suleiman, the WBC president. He is someone that I have poked at a lot over the last few years for some decisions that the WBC has made. He joins me for what was right around a 45, 50

minute conversation where we addressed everything. You know, Jamal Charlo's hold on the WBC title, Tyson Fury's fight with Francis de Ganu, women's boxing issues. We ran the gamut. Maricio was clear before the interview started that. that nothing was off limits. So we covered all the bases on that one, terrific conversation with Maricio Suleiman. A little bit later, George Cambosus,

the former unified lightweight champion. He is back on the comeback trail this Saturday facing Max and Hughes. That's a fight you can watch live on ESPN. I talked to George about his loss to Devin Haney, how he kind of reacted to that. What can we expect to see from him in this next chapter of his career?

Is that hunger still there after making all that money for the Devin Haney fights? Good talk with George Cambosis a little bit later in the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. All right, well, let's do it. Here's my conversation with Maricio Sulemon. All right, Maricio, I just want to reiterate at the top of this show that I do appreciate you coming on and talking to me.

I can be hard on the sanctioning bodies, Maricio, both in print and on DeZone. So I do appreciate and respect you coming on and verbally sparring with me a little bit. Because I think we might get into it here a little bit, Maricio. Absolutely. My pleasure. And we're absolutely open to any topic of discussion. And this is a great opportunity to clarify many things that could be misinterpreted, misunderstood, or to rectify when we commit mistakes. All right.

So let's jump right into it then. Jermal Charlo, he is still the WBC middleweight champion. He has not fought now in more than two years. He recently had to withdraw from a planned fight with Canelo Alvarez because of some personal issues that he's been dealing with. As of right now, there are no plans for Jermal Charlo to fight in the foreseeable future. why is Jermal Charlo still the WBC middleweight champion? WBC takes every single case separately. We administer every single situation.

And we have been very close to Jermal Charles case. First, he had an injury when he was going to fight Suleki. That was a hand injury. Eventually, he has been involved in some mental, wellness situations, mental health. And the WBC has looked into this matter. We addressed it by ordering an interim championship with Carlos Adams becoming interim champion. And we have been supporting a Charles situation and we will continue to support him. I am close in communications with him and his brother, and I believe he will be fighting in near future and resume his career.

So in summary, we simply will be always with our champion, with our boxers, especially in the bad times. Okay, I can respect that because, you know, it's very clear from what I've been told and what you obviously know that Jamal Charlo is going through some issues in his personal life. But you seem Mauricio to have a mechanism in place to deal with a situation like this. You've used the champion in recess designation a lot over the years. A few recent examples I can come up with are when Alexander Usik moved up to heavyweight. You used it on him, called him champion in recess for a while. You used it on Devin Haney.

When Devin Haney was injured, couldn't fight. You then reversed that ruling and reinstated him without Haney actually fighting for his belt. again. Currently, Oscar Rivas is the Bridgerweight champion in recess, a designation the WBC gave Rivas until he, quote, confirms his decision about his boxing future. Why should Jermal Charlo not be held to this same standard? Well, as I said, we deal every single case separately. Usik informed the WBC's intentions to compete in heavyweight. So we gave him that option. He was in In the mean, in the minute, he was not going to fight, so he was going to go into the heavyweight. So that's what we did with Usik.

Rivas had a detached retina. He has to retire from boxing very unfortunately. We gave him the opportunity to be able if he wanted to return, but that is not going to be the case. And the other one, Haney, as you can see, we put him in champion recess, then put him back as champion. Every single case is dealt differently. I have been in talks with Charlo of him fighting during this year and in the near future. So we're going to still wait and see when he's going to come back. We did address the situation having Adamas as interim champion.

He just fought a week ago against Williams. So there is activity in the division. Okay, so you mentioned Carlos Adamas. And since Jamal Charlo fought back in 2021, Adamas has fought four times. He won the interim title, as you mentioned, two fights ago, defended it in his last fight against Julian Williams. How is this action fair to Carlos Adamas?

Well, Carlos Adame is making good money. He just fought a week ago. He's very happy being the WBC interim champion. I think he would disagree. He wants to be full champion. I just talked to him today. You said then he's happy. He's fine. He's happy. He's appreciative of the WBC.

And he understands that we're supporting a human being in Charlo. If things change with Charlo, if it comes different, we will take a decision. But at this time, I am convinced he will be fighting soon. And Adam is not being disrespected in any way and he's happy with it. Should Charlo's next fight be against Carlos Adamas? It could be. As I said, I am in communication with them. Could be Adams or could be just a comeback fight defending his title.

And then we order the fight between the interim champion and the champion. So my theory, and you can tell me if I'm wrong here, but Jermal Charlo is the WBC middleweight champion. Canelo Alvarez is the WBC super middleweight champion. My theory is that the WBC has won it all along. If those two were going to fight, which has been in talks for well over a year now, that they would want the WBC 160 pound champion versus the 168 pound champion. And that's why Jermal Charlo still has his title.

No, not necessarily. Charlo wanted to fight Canelo four years ago. when Charlo was the interim middleweight champion. And he waited for that opportunity. Eventually, that fight didn't materialize. So Charlie is a fighter that has been waiting a long time for a big fight. This situation of Charlo right now is exclusively of a WBC support to his personal situation. He can fight Canelo even without being the champion.

It's a big fight. but this is much more before the Canelo possible fight was in the scenario. All right, so let's move on. Judging is a hot topic in boxing way too often. Do you think that bad judging is a serious problem in boxing? It is a very serious problem. I am diligently working with the WBC ring officials committee. into many different aspects.

There's a few problems that we can certainly look and understand as a root of a problem. One is the way ring officials are appointed to the fights. The WBC appoints the ring officials in most WBC title fights. but when it comes to the United States and other few countries, then the local boxing commission is the one in charge and not every time we can agree on the panel officiating the fight. But there is other situations in boxing that we are concerned regarding officiating. The system of a 10-point most system is,

now somehow misunderstood even by the judges. If you have a 10 point more system and 95% of the rounds are scored 10, 9, then we have an issue. There's, especially

in the first two, three rounds, there are many times that there's very little action. You can see a fighter win a round by just landing one or two jabs or just a very little activity and he gets 10-9.

And then you can see later, maybe next round or a couple rounds later, big action, big blows being landed by the other fighter and he wins around 10-9. Most commissions do not allow 10-10, even though we encourage our judges to score 10-10 when there's a very close round, when you cannot pick a winner, it should be a 10-10. And also they don't encourage or allow 10-8 without a knockdown. So there's many rounds where you see great damage and things happening that are really very different from a very slow round, and they're still scored 10-9.

That's one of the things. We have remote scoring. We have found this that is very helpful to monitor the activity of the judges, as a training and an evaluation tool. And we have found that the more judges to score a fight than the less chances of a bad score or a bad decision. We would like to implement for the big, important fights, five judges to score a fight.

We have the open scoring rule around the world. But again, USA and the UK, they do not allow it. Open scoring means we announce the official scores after the fourth and after the eighth round. Do you think that's a good idea? Because in my mind, open scoring, you want fighters to at least think that a fight is competitive because if it's open scoring, it can change the way the second half of the fight plays out. Well, we have found this to be a very, very good rule and tool. We do it, as I said, in most countries of the world.

It gives transparency, which is much needed in our sport. But most importantly, it gives the corners the opportunity to see what the judges are scoring. How many fights we have seen that the fighters at the end of the fight said, oh, I thought I was winning. I just let the last two rounds just go like that. If you give the opportunity to adjust the strategy or the action, the plan of action, then at least you give the fighters and their corners an opportunity to adjust when they are not going the way they thought in the eyes of the judges.

Okay, so you mentioned, bringing up a specific example of bad judging. I think that there are, there should be more consequences or any consequences for poor judging. And I want to bring up a specific example that relates to the WBC. It was a couple of weeks ago when Marlena Sparza faced Gabrielle Alanese for three titles, including the WBC version of the 112 pound belt. The Sparza won a unanimous decision, which was fine. It was a competitive fight.

He was a majority decision. You're right. Two judges had it first, bars one judge at least a job at a draw. One judge, though, Javier Alvarez had the fight a blowout, scoring 99 to 91. This is, Baricio, the same Javier Alvarez, who had a very strange scorecard in the Stanionis Boutaia fight a year and a half ago. And had an outrageous one, I thought, in the M.J. Akma Dahlia of Marlon Topalas fight. which was for two versions of the 122 pound title. That's three bad scorecards in three championship fights over the last year and a half.

So my question to you is, do you believe Javier Alvarez should judge any further WBC fights? You know, he was appointed by the local boxing commission. We have that fight right now under review by the WBC ring officials committee. we agreed also with the WBO to do a review of this fight because there's a strong complaint from the Argentinian fighter who lost her title and we are addressing it. But as I said, it's a situation where in many instances that WBC does not have the control of appointing the ring officials.

Sometimes we have zero, sometimes we have partial, sometimes we have absolute control. But officiating right now, it's under a slum. So many fights, if you look at the last two, three months, so many fights have gone that one judge gives it to one fighter, the other judge gives it to the other fighter, or close fights like these one are very wide scores. So something is happening, and we have to do something.

We have to really protect and up the activity because there's something happening and it's very concerning. I think one of the bigger concerns is that for the most part, I say a large percentage of judges are older. I sit ringside for a lot of these fights. When I look at the ring apron, I see a lot of mostly older men that are judging a lot of these fights. And I don't know if there should be an age maximum or an age limit for how old you can be to judge fights. But I see very few quality young judges in the pipeline, Maricio. Not to say there aren't any, but I think that is a major problem in boxing. How do you address that?

Well, first, I think it's inconstitutional or not lawful to put age as a, parameter. In England, I believe you cannot judge if you are 60 or 65. So some places do have age as a limit and you cannot be a judge or a referee over a specific age. There is absolutely, I believe, qualified officials, but they don't get the opportunity. There are, you know, promoters or managers or boxing camps have a say in the process of vetoing who they are requested to be officiant in a fight. But how can you get to the major leagues if you don't get the opportunity to play in the minor leagues? How can you get to be a good official if you don't get that opportunity? I have a, and I would love to get you involved in a process where we can

look at officials and see how many, because we do have a huge list of ring officials from all over the world. But there's a tendency that a very few limited names are being considered for many big, important fights. So it's a problem, and we are addressing it. We are not happy with it. That's a reality. I think, look, I can appreciate that. I go back to the example of a Javier Alvarez. And, I mean, what if I, what happens if I see him or anybody sees him in a fight where the WBC has some control over who the officials are? Because that tells me that there are any consequences for bad scorecards. No, we do have consequences and we have a case of Stephen Blair last year.

And it was public suspension. And he took it like a man. and he continued growing and continued to go through the process of education and certification and training, and now he has his back and had activity. So we do have consequences. We have every single event that is officiated. There is a, I'm sorry for my English. Okay.

A grade provided on the performance of each official. There is feedback to the officials. We go back and forth and say, well, maybe for the referees, this and this and that, and for the judges as well. So we do have a solid ring officials committee, but we are limited in the activity that we can do in many instances. Let's talk about the fight that Canelo Alvarez just had down in Mexico against John Ryder. And I want to talk about the undercard because a couple of things happened on that undercard that were very difficult to understand. You had Stevie Spark against Gabrielle Valenzuela, who is a local fighter from Guadalajara. And Maricio, I had the official sheet in front of me that showed three neutral judges.

and when the official judges were read, that two of them had been replaced by local judges. And those two judges ruled against Stevie Spark. And Stevie Spark said that shouldn't have happened. Eddie Hearn, the promoter to the event, said that shouldn't have happened. Do you have any explanation for what happened that night between Stevie Spark and Gabrielle Valenzuela? Yes, I'm very familiar because we were heavily involved in that event.

And that fight was going to be a WBF. international title. We helped the local boxing commission in many things during the process. And I know there was, because between match room and the

promoter, local promoters and the boxing commission, we personally intervened to make sure that what they were asking the commission was addressing. So that fight had in fact a neutral panel. I

I know from personal witness because I was there. I have no idea what happened in ringside, and I believe it was at the end not a WBA fight, and how they substituted it. I have no idea. And I talked to Sean Palmer, I believe, after a couple of days, and we tried to help them understand what had happened with the local commission. So you're saying you had no involvement.

with the judges being switched at the last minute. Absolutely not. No, it was not a WBC fight, and it was not anything that we had intervention with. I want to ask you about two of the innovations you've had over the last five or six years, the franchise championship and Bridgerweight, the new division that the WBC launched a couple of years ago.

How do you feel about those two ventures? now. Do you regret anything about the franchise championship or the creation of the Bridgerweight division? Not at all. I'm very, very, I have always been a very positive when I have to talk about these two cases on the franchise designation. I feel very happy and very proud and I stand strong that what it did in three weight categories was very helpful. The franchise designation is designed to have a fighter out of the, you know, those elite fighters that make a difference, to have some sort of different treatment. Canelo received the franchise's designation.

He went on and fought three or four fights outside the way of camp. where he was franchise and he defeated Kovalev and defeated another fighter. And then he decided to go to super middleweight and his goal was to unify and be undisputed. And so it worked very well. At this time, he's not franchise, so there's no franchise designation. So when it worked, it did give the opportunity and it worked well. On the lightweight, the designation when Lomachenko petitioned it, it was the perfect example on how it held the lightweight division to boom in many ways.

Heaney was interim champion. When Lomachenko has the designation of franchise, he becomes a champion. So Haney had the opportunity to defend the WBC title. Then the pandemic came. He fought Gamboa. He fought Linares. So those were high-profile fights. We had Garcia.

Ryan Garcia fought Luke Campbell for the interim title when Haney was injured. We had a series of fights involving very much. very good fighters. So that division became very active. Eventually, Lomachenko lost to Lopez. Then Lopez lost to Cambosos. Then Heaney came on and beat Cambosos. So I believe it served the purpose of getting very good fights,

very good opportunities to many. And then Heine went the full cycle, from interim champion to undisputed champion. and I feel happy about that. Let me stop. Let me ask you this about lightweight, because this is where you lose me. This is where we disagree.

I think the franchise championship at lightweight created two years of unnecessary chaos. It led to debates weekly about who the real 135 pound champion, debates that got even crazier by the fact that originally, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but originally the franchise championship was supposed to be non-transferable. Vasily Lomachenko was not supposed to be able to lose the franchise championship to Teufima Lopez.

Or put it another way, Teufi Mo Lopez was not supposed to be able to inherit the franchise championship from Vasily Lomachenko. So it created a lot of unnecessary chaos in the division. And yeah, maybe it created a couple of good fights. I would argue that Haney Linaris would have happened anyway. Haney Jojo-Diaz would have happened anyway. I think the negatives with the franchise championship at 135 vastly outweigh the positives. Well, that's your opinion. I respect it.

When we entered into the creation of the franchise designation, we changed the rule, that ruling when Teofiimo Lopes petitioned, the WBC before the fight, he said, if I beat Lomachenko, I want to be WBC champion. That's what he petitioned, the WBC voted in favor of that, and that was the case. So I take the other road. But you, Maricio, you had to answer, you did interviews all the time. I saw them on YouTube. I read about them.

You had to answer the question all the time about who is the real WBC champion. How is that good for anything in boxing? I take the other road. I take the fact and the reality that there were many great fights in that period. So I take that. If people were mad at me and said things, not that I can repeat here,

I take it, but I prefer, and I was very proud to see many great fights happen. And then we proved it was a great process for Haney from those two years to go. grow into the undisputed champion. Okay, but is the franchise championship belt gone forever? We don't have any petition right now. Maybe there will not be any petitions.

Maybe it's gone forever. I don't know yet. Would you want someone to petition? Because, again, like you seem to think it's a good thing. If Canelo Alvarez petitioned to be the WBC 168-pound franchise champion, what would you say? Probably. But you didn't let me finalize with the Superflyway. Chocolatito and Estrada had a great, great second fight,

which was praised as one of the best in many, many years, blah, blah, blah, blah. So Estrada petition for the franchise, and that was what helped the third fight to take place. In the meantime, it was a great tournament. what that was ordered, very unfortunately fell because of COVID and other injuries. But Quadras was to fight saw Rumbesai, and then the two winners were to fight each other. That would have been a sensational. But from there, when Rumbesai got pulled out of the fight, Bamban Rodriguez emerged.

So that was a great thing that happened from there. Then he beat Quadras, then he knocked out Rumbesai. And now we have only Estrada as a champion. when he defeated Gonzales. So it served the purpose at that time. I would argue, though, too. I think that... You argue everything.

I do. I do argue everything. I would say that the franchise belt didn't really help making the third fight between Chocolatito and Estrada. They could fight for no belts and people would watch. You are wrong. Oh, come on. You think people care about Estrada Chocolatito fighting for a title? Oh, my God.

you are so wrong the belts are what makes the interest of course sometimes sometimes I agree with you yeah you would

you would watch Pittsburgh against Dallas that's a great rivalry I'm a Cowboys fan but if there's nothing at stake eventually that will die out

if there is no championship if there is no accolade people and you with all to respect when you claim that fights can take place without belts, it's an insult to the sport. Well, wait a minute, Maricio, your analogy, your analogy doesn't make any sense. It doesn't, like you say Pittsburgh, Dallas, if there's nothing at stake, a win is at stake.

An opportunity to go on to bigger and better things is at stake. There's no belt on the line between Pittsburgh and Dallas. Why, why are Chocolatito and Estrada known? because of years of working being champions. Of course you can have fights without belts, but that's only a top of the top that really without having that process. It is very unfair to say you can have fights without belts to be of interest. Of course that could happen.

And there were attempts in the 90s, in the 2000s to go that way. and they all fail because boxing is a worldwide sport that needs the boxers from all of the world. Look at the stage, how Mani Paquiao became Mani Paquiao. And I can send you a chart. He was a live flyweight. He won the WBC Flyweight Oriental and Pacific Boxing Federation title, which is a WBC affiliated title.

Then he won the international title. then he won the WBC flyweight. Then he moved up to super, he skipped to super bantam weight. So then he came to the United States and won the IBF title in a great opportunity as a late replacement. And that put the eyes of the world. So to say that titles do not mean anything, it's something very popular to say. No, look, I think titles mean something. something to a certain point. I think that Floyd Mayweather, after he beat Oscar Delahoya,

I have no idea what titles he fought for, what titles he won. People only cared that Floyd Mayweather was fighting in a significant fight. Canelo Alvarez, fighting in September, if he fought for no titles, I don't think it would impact that fight one bit because people watch for Canello Alvarez. And that's how I feel about Chocolatito and Estrada. If they fight for a fourth time, which may happen at some point in the next year, if there's a title on the line, if there's not a title on the line, I don't think it matters one bit for that fight. It does matter very much. And I can tell you, and you can tell, you can ask TV executives, you can ask sponsors, you can ask promoters, and then you will see if the title has any value

or not. Look, we can go round and round on that. We'll move on. I agree with some of what you're saying there. I think later on, I think it matters. a little bit less. You didn't address Bridgerweight, which it has not gained a lot of traction as of yet in terms of big name fighters. How do you feel about how Bridgerweight has gone of the last couple of years? If you allow me to give the explanation, I think it's educating. In 1909, the heavyweight champion of the world weighed 168 pounds in the, in the whole century, human beings became bigger and bigger and bigger. That's a natural evolution. So by the 80s, early 90s, the WBC created the cruiserweight division because heavy weight began at 175,

identifying the growth of human beings, the cruiser weights came into from 1.7. 175 to 190, and heavyweight would begin from 190 on. With this same thought process, we have changed from 190 to a 200 because we kept seeing the high volume of phytists that were much bigger in the heavyweight division, so we expanded to 200 the crucible weight. after doing research and doing data and analysis, the WBC instituted the bridge of weight, which comes in at 200 to 224 pounds

to a universe of fighters that are in the heavyweight limit, but are in a very small compared to a 260, 270, Tyson, Fury, Joshua, and other huge fighters. that are there. So since the inception of the bridge await, we have had WBC World Title,

Silver, International, NABF, and a few other federations. And one thing I can tell you, the fights have been very, very good. With Oscar Rivas losing, because of his retina, there was inactivity in the World Championship, but I can tell you every single fight in the bridge of weight

has been very competitive, very good, and I have confidence that we will continue to see the bridge of weight continue to emerge. The money is in the heavyweight, and that's a reality. So most fighters would like to fight for the heavyweight championship, but now they're learning that the bridge of weight. Bridgeweight is getting to be a place where they can safely and justly compete. Okay.

But isn't your argument, you know, isn't your argument diminished by the fact that a, the man that has three versions of the heavyweight title could qualify for Bridgerweight. The man that held the WBC title for more than five years, Deonté Wilder, he could qualify for bridger weight. You're talking about some giants in boxing, and yes, there are giants in boxing, led by Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua, but a lot of heavyweights still fall

in that 200 to 230 pound weight limit that Bridgerweight claims to operate in. Yes, of course, Wilder is a great exception that he, at 2.14, 218, could knock out huge opponents. O'SIC, too. Yeah, but Ussick, he's much heavier now that 224. And he has not, the power that he had in cruiserweight has not been shown in heavyweight at all. But he's a great-

I heard Anthony Joshua in that first fight, for sure, almost had him knocked out in the last round. Yeah, but he didn't knock him out. He did hurt him, and he's a great fighter, great champion. and of course he's an extraordinary. We're talking the decision for the general population or universe of fighters. And I feel confident it's moving along well. It takes time. Every single rule that has been implemented takes a long time to mature.

People continue to boo my father years after changing from 15 to 12 rounds. And today is the reality and it has saved many lives and the quality of life of many fighters. A couple things before I let you go. One area we agree on, I figured we wrap things up with an area we agree. I know. Tyson Fury is going to fight Francis Nagano on October 28th. Tyson, of course, is the WBC heavyweight champion. You have gotten some external pressure from people asking you to strip Tyson Fury of his title.

you said he will not be stripped. And your reasoning was that he tried to make fights to defend his title against Anthony Joshua, against Alexander Usik, against Andy Ruiz. And those fights fell apart for various reasons. He just defended it back in December. So I agree with that. I think you're doing the right thing in allowing Tyson Theory to do this event against France and Nagano. Where I'm not clear on is why you haven't ordered a fight or a purse bid of any kind for the next mandatory challenge.

I know there was one at one point for Deonté Wilder against Andy Ruiz. It's pretty clear that those two are never going to make a deal. When can we expect some kind of clarity on who is the mandatory challenger for Tyson Fury? You know, the mandatory challenger is a major topic. If you do not put the greatest attention into trying to have the best mandatory contender, you will do a disservice to the sport. We do have a process to selecting through elimination bouts and through a specific final elimination,

who the best challenger of the division is. And we have tried to do the best job. We have had a few bad mandatory contenders which do a disservice to the sport. The WBC rule to see Wilder against Ruiz as the final elimination to be the mandatory contender. This has come just way too long, and I agree with you. What has happened has been all this process of fury,

trying to do the fights with Ussic and then the different offers coming from the Middle East to so many different fighters. So it's been very confusing. We have a deadline for confirmation if Wilder and Reis is going to happen or not. If not, then we will cancel that ruling and produce a new one.

Women's boxing is growing by the year, it seems like. We're seeing a lot of women headline, you know, major shows. We have heard some of the most high-profile women out there call for women's boxing to be fought under three-minute round rules, to have three-minute rounds right now. They are at two. Where do you stand on women's boxing going from two-minute rounds to three-minute rounds? The WBC has done thorough research.

And at this point, unless there is absolute medical, scientific clearance, we will never allow women to fight three-minute rounds. This is medically and scientifically. But if we go to the facts and to the reality, why would you change if women's boxing is so exciting and it's so great at two minutes? It's a different pace. Everybody loves to see women boxing,

and I'm certain that the two minutes have a lot to do with it. You don't need three minutes to knock out somebody out, and just the rationale is on medical. men and have sorry excuse me there are other studies that say it's not as significant a risk as

as the WPC has made it out to be I've read them I've seen them why are you not why are you not looking at some of these other medical opinions that say it's not as big a risk as you think I don't know what medical opinions you refer to I'll be happy to look

at them, we have annual conventions where all the topics are in the open floor. And we have also a clear opening to address any situation. Nobody has ever put together or put forward a petition with facts and with medical research. Zero. I don't go out shopping and trying to find articles, as you mentioned, but nothing has ever been put forward to the WBC. What I can can tell you is men and women have completely different physiognomy. The neck area has a different structure. The menstrual period brings a very different situation into the hormones and the woman when they're going through that process. And the ratio for concussion is much more higher for women than for men.

We will not be into a popularity contest. Many times we have protect boxers from themselves. Boxers are warriors. They would fight 30 rounds or five-minute rounds if they were requested to do so to earn their living. They don't care about the rules. We have to protect them and put the rules for their protection. I would say to answer your question,

but why does it need to be changed? You know, someone like Amanda Serrano, who is the undisputed champion at 126 and one of the few power punchers in women's boxing. She would say, hey, I just fought in the biggest fight in women's boxing history. If I had an extra minute in that fifth round, I would have knocked out Katie Taylor. Or when I won my first belt at 126, I believe in 130, fighting Heather Hardy, then if I had an extra minute in the first round, I would have knocked him out. The argument for three-minute rounds is it will increase the number of knockouts and therefore grow women's boxing because, as you know, people, whether it's men or women, they love watching knockouts. That's a speculation. They do. People love knockouts.

Oh, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's a speculation to say she would have won by knockout if there was another minute. We cannot prove that. But why don't we go back to 15 rounds and see. people who are not human beings in the ring being just put to the limits of human. We are for safety. And if women want to fight in a safe platform and a safe control environment, they're welcoming the WBC.

All right. Last thing for you, and I do appreciate your time. So let's talk about Errol Spence, the unified 147 pound champion, also the WBC title holder at 147 pounds. He's got a huge fight coming up on July 29th against Terrence Crawford. That's the biggest fight of the year. One of the biggest fights we've seen in many years.

Errol Spence was at a press conference recently, last month, and he had this to say about the sanctioning bodies. We getting 3% to these organizations. I mean, we got to know where there's money going to. I mean, a lot of times they get... man you got canelo and um and josh and all these guys you know making 50 million dollars and these bills are getting 3% of it where is it going to him how's it helping the fighters out

what are they doing with it so maricio errol spence wants to know where the money is going so you tell me where is all this money going thank you so much for this question the wbc is a nonprofit organization founded 60 years ago. The WBC has 176 countries affiliated. We have 50 employees in Mexico City direct and many other indirect employees. We have offices in Los Angeles, in Albuquerque and Miami,

and we have remote offices in other countries. We have a wide variety of committees that do work every single day. We have a huge expense in the Clean Boxing Program. We have expense in medical research. We have the Jose Suleiman Boxers Fund, the Friendly Hand Foundation, the WBC CARES program,

a variety of social responsibility programs, many different committees. So I did a piece about two weeks ago, three weeks ago, about what the WBC is. If you are open to giving this more time and more outlet, because we do not have outlets. What the WBC says is very limited of where it goes because we don't buy the time or we don't have the news. openness. But I am happy and I responded to Earl Spence. I was sad that he does not know what the WBC is because he has been a champion and he has seen what the WBC does. So I feel very happy to

have the opportunity to prove what the WBC does. We are, as I said, non-for-profit, every single dollar that comes into the WBC goes back to boxing one way or not. another and there's thousands of people that you can ask about that. I think what Errol Spence would like to know is, is any money going towards the boxers, specifically when it comes to post-fighting career, medical insurance for when they're done fighting, because as you well know, a lot of boxers find themselves in very difficult circumstances, physically, mentally when they're fighting careers are over. Is any of that money going to be earmarked for?

those specific purposes. Many, many, many, many. And many times we don't publicize specific cases because we feel that the honorability of those great champions that fall in hard times would be tarnished. But there's so many fighters that you can ask and see the aid that they have received and they continue to receive.

You know, the way boxing is a structure, is very complicated because there is no league, there is no structured, planned for any fighter. They are individual contractors to a promoter.

The WBC is not in the business of boxing. We have nothing to do with TV contracts, with gate, revenues, with sponsorship, nothing that has to do with the business, only the administrative and the medical side. when a fighter goes into a boxing

and does not have good advisors that help them pay the taxes that help them save in a 401k or save for retirement and the box is gone and buy a Ferrari and crash it and come close to death and buy so many jewelry

and trips and fun and houses and they don't get good advice, that's the biggest problem. We are working hard into getting a financial education for when they, you know, once they become big in money and they come into a bubble, and it's very hard to educate them. But we start early and we have been doing so. You can educate fighters or not, it's not limited to fighters. NFL has, I believe, three years after they retire, they go to Chapter 11, the highest rate.

So it's for all athletes and entertainers. But it's a concern for boxing because athletes need to know how to save the money because most of them, they don't know to do anything after they retire from the ring. Maricio Suleiman, I do appreciate your time talking to me about this, verbally sparring a little bit about this. Some things will never agree on Maricio, but I do appreciate you taking the time to sit down and talk to me. Thank you, Chris. And any time I'm open and more than happy to try to give some hooks back to you. And when we come back, my conversation with George Camposos.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard,

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and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Do you remember when Diana Ross Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye They said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little camp? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed correct.

So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. George Cambosis is the former lightweight champion on Saturday. He'll begin the work to get back to that championship level when he takes on Maxi Hughes. That's a fight you could watch exclusively on ESPN in the U.S. And George is back with me here on the show. George's been quite the couple of years for you. Got a big win, took a couple of losses, made, I'm guessing, a whole boatload of money along the way.

How are you feeling as you begin this next chapter? Yeah, look, it's been a crazy ride these last few years after a long journey to even get to where we've got to. But, you know, it's been good to sit back for a few months, be able to refresh myself, be able to work on certain things and aspects of my fight game and, you know, refuel that hunger. You know, I don't think, you know, see if you can see how many fighters in today's, you know, day and age have gone and fought. now Gail, Atif and Malapis, and then Devonani twice or within 11 months. It's quite an incredible feature. So now I'm very proud of the fights. I'm very proud of the events.

I'm proud of the lessons learned, win, lose or draw. You know, you know, me, I'm a warrior. I'm a fighter. So for me, I learned from everything. And, you know, I'm very happy to be back. I'm very excited to be headlining my first official top-rank fight under their banner and live on ESPN, so bring it on. Yeah, you did take the hard road over the last couple of years.

You beat Teufima Lopez, and then you go straight into what was probably the toughest two fights you could possibly make. With respect to the Cilomacchenko, Devin Haney was as good as it gets in the 135-pound division. When you look back at that decision to not take out of a homecoming fight, to take immediately a matchup with Devin Hain. Do you have any regrets about the path that you try? shows? No, definitely not. And, you know, the fans can vouch for me, you know, wherever I go here in Vegas or, you know, when I was at the Haney-Lomenchenko fight, so many fans come up and say, you know what, you're a different kind of warrior, you know, to go straight into the fire, like that fighter guy who was so avoided a fighter, you know, a technician like a possible fire with Lomachenko,

you know, not many fighters do that. So I'm very proud of them, you know, them fights and what I chose to do when I won the belts. As we know, yes, we could have sat there and milked it and said, us and made a few easy dollars but you know always wanted to test myself against the best and is it eager i don't believe so i believe it's um you know competitive nature the kind of fighter that i am you know i want to fight the best and like i said win lose or draw who cares about the zero we get the best fight fighting the best and uh you know that's why i'm excited to be back you know i'm proven i've been in the championship fights this is uh another championship fight and um I'm excited to make another statement, show that, hey, you can lose a fight.

You know, I've lost the one guy. That's Devon 80. Showcase to the war that, you know, I've learned from these fights. You were sky high after beating Teifima Lopez. You calling yourself the emperor. It was all good for you at that point. Your confidence seemed like it was peaking. Where is your confidence now after those two losses?

Better than ever. It's better than ever because I went 24 rounds with a guy like Devon 80. I went 12 rounds of the goal like Tfem Malapest. So I'm better than ever. I'm refreshed. I'm hungry than ever. I don't let nothing else distract me. You know,

I know what I want to prove in this sport again. I will be world champion with the IBO this Saturday, and I will put myself in position for an IBF world title as well. So I just want to keep collecting these belts, collecting that legacy. Yes, you touch on it. There's been a lot of money being made, but that money is great for my family and my kids.

And yes, I'm a prize fighter. And I've earned that money. For me, what really wakes me up in the morning is a sacrifice, the dedication on my way. I'm here in Vegas. I haven't been to the strip. I'm away in the suburbs in 40-degree heat, putting in the work. I'm on the way right now, and that's my motivation to continue building my legacy and showcase that ferocious Cambosus fights any man living and he's not afraid of anybody

and will continue proving himself. Tell me a little bit more about that because going into the Lopez fight, I mean, that was your proving ground. You had good wins against Lee Selby, Mickey Bay, but that was your chance to show the world who George Camposos is. And that was probably your motivation going into that fight. Has it been difficult to find equal or better motivation since the last couple of losses? I've got better motivation now. My motivation now is thriving because as much as I got a lot of respect from the boxing world and the boxing fans of the route that I took when I became champion, A lot of them think that he's done after losing to Devonading.

So I've got a point to prove. I know there are a lot of big fights out there for me, mega fights. So for me, this is a point to prove to showcase myself. And like I said, it's my first fight with top rank officially. I'm headlining ESPN. I'm here to showcase that. Ferocious is back once again. I've been there.

I've been at top of the mountain. I've proven myself, but I'm here to prove myself again. I've got a great team. And you're going to see on Saturday of the corner fight, I've become a better fighter for it. And like I've said to many guys, don't, you know, judgment on the losses to Devon 80. You use a superb fighter, a guy who's very, very avoided, but we chose that route. You know, judgment on my return and that you will see on Saturday.

When you take losses, in your mind, do you need to make changes? You mentioned that you're in Las Vegas doing your training camp there at the top rank gym, different climate, of course. But was there anything else that? changed in your game plan, your preparation that you felt needed to be changed after those losses? Yeah, look, I'm back here in the US. You know, I made my emphatic rise to become champion of the world doing it in America. Everyone knew about this guy from Australia that was here in the US.

He was a spying pun of Manipakia, but he was chasing that road from America. It wasn't taking the usual road that Aussie fighters do. They had all heard of Cambocas, but they hadn't really seen him yet. So I had to go back to that. I've been out here putting great work in Vegas at the city athletic gym. And I've got a great team, a great corner, a lot of knowledge of my team. I brought in some new coaches as well. And, you know, you're going to see a different ferocious.

Still that ferocious fighter, but a guy that has evolved, learned more, and continue to become a student of the game, and he's extremely hungry. Like we said, we respect Maxi Hughes. We're excited for the fight. And we hope he brings his best because our best is going to be an extraordinary. there. When you started making preparations and making plans for your next fight after the second Haney loss, what was kind of going through your mind then? You could have moved up to 140, you could have gone with a different promoter. What were you looking to do and what are you

looking to do now that you're at 135? My goal and my motivation is to become champion of the world again. As we know, yes, it's for the IBA world title right now, but we want one of the big four. I believe the IB will get there as we want a few more years that we'll be coming. under the belts as well not that we need any more belts but uh you know why not add another another beautiful belt so um my motivation is becoming war champion again really enough for the hardware i got the hardware sitting at home it's the legacy it's the the name a world champion again that's my motivation that's that's the reason i'm out here sacrificing so much i'm away from you know my beautiful family away from my kids i'm away from you know the luxuries of being

an Australian superstar. You know, there's a lot of luxury out there. So I'm here putting in the work and I'm very, very focused. And the way I feel now, I feel better than what I did talking to you, I think the night before I beat Teufo My Lopez. I remember that clearly having a chat with you on the podcast. So this is a better cambosis and I can't wait. And you, before that win over Lopez, you know, one thing you've mentioned a couple of times,

a few times, is you read a lot of customato, but what customato said, about Muhammad Ali and and and and and landing that big right hand. Have you done any reading heading to this one? And what is kind of that mental assist that you're getting going into this fight? Look, I'm always reading. I'm always learning more and more. Obviously before the Devonani, for whatever I remember is the art of Warsaw.

I'm not going to touch on that too much because there were a few memes out there. But, you know, you learn more. But I'm a shooting of this game. You know, I have listened to, you know, not really sat there and read too many books this time. I have listened to the old timers, you know, the coaches that I have with me now, you know, the guys that come into the gym, we've had, you would have seen on Twitter, Mike McCullan, who beat one of our greats, Jeff Harding, just listen to his, you know, stories. You know, Fernando Vargas, the original ferocious, speaking to him, you know, my coaches,

you know, I've been able to listen to their stories and they've got a lot of knowledge and, you know, I'm a machine of the game, pick, you know, their brains. And in this time, you know, the way that fighters are, they'll sit there on social media and try to just, you know, see what they can on social media. But I'm old school, like my corner says, and I always sit there and pick, you know, a fighter's brain, a guy who's been there, you know, a legendary fighter, legendary trainer, learn as much as I can. We had a great meeting with Bob Barron and there picking his brain and learning different things.

For me, I love to learn. Is there a piece of advice that you've gotten over the last few weeks in my, whether it's from Mike McCallum or Fernando Vargas or Bob Arum that that sticks with you now. There's a good one from my lead coach Don House who he's been around a long time, trained many champions and he hasn't seen someone like ferocious and that's come from his own own mouth. So like he says, I'm old school and excuse my French, but you got a greedy motherfucker coming in this Saturday. That's got nothing to do with money. That's something that's going to be shown in the room. I'm too good.

to let guys off the hook. I've got too much better to let guys off the hook and every single opening, these guys are going to pay for it. So you've got Maxie Hughes in front of you on Saturday. He's also got a lot of the line in this fight. It's as big a fight for him as it is for you. What kind of fight are you expecting from him? Yeah, look, Maxx is a good fighter. That's the reason we chose him. He's a respectable fighter. He's a guy from the UK. He's done the hard road as well. He's picked up a good string of wins, not massive wins, but a good string that he's been going on. And We expect the best version of Maxi Hughes. That's where we have prepared extremely well.

And we can't wait to step in there and show him the levels that we are above. But, you know, there's no disrespect there. We're just excited for growth fight. I know you're not looking past Maxi Hughes, but in the future, a rematch that interests you more. Is it Teufima Lopez or Devin Haney? Look, obviously, it's always, you know, bittersweet, you know, winning the belts and losing the best of goal at Devin Haney. So obviously that is always there, but I don't think that's ever going to happen.

Me and Devin have become quite good friends. So, you know, he's going to move up and I've got business to handle at 135. Again, the Lopez fight is always, you know, an interest of mine. You know, I beat him very well that night. You were there commentating. And then we saw a string of excuses that came out of his mouth. So there's always like to shut him up again. But for me, there's another guy out there, which he signed with top rank.

as a guy that we've been many to survive or many times. But for now, my main focus is Maxi Hughes. Once this fight's done, then obviously they will because I start getting excited about something else. But for now, Maxi Hughes, that's the only person I have on my mind. It has, I've noticed it has bothered you, at least on social media, that Lopez has tried to diminish your win, basically pointing out that he was not physically there for that fight.

How much has that bothered you over the last couple of years? It hasn't really bothered me. I'll find it quite funny. I just come in and out on Twitter. I love Twitter. It's quite fascinating. I don't really show too much emotions. I come in, say a few words, then get out and go focus on other things.

Look, the fans saw it. They continually comment it and have a laugh about it. At the end of the day, he can come up with whatever he wants. You were there, ringside. You saw the beating he took. He's done a beautiful backflip after the first. fight too. So like I said to him, you teach him how to do that. And he was, yeah, I'll teach you. So, you know, whatever he onus is, whatever bullshit comes out of his mouth, that's fine.

I'm happy for him. You know, he's got to pick up a good win and we'll say what happens in the future. Well, no question. You've got a clean win that night against Teofima. We'll see what happens this Saturday against Maxie Hughes live on ESPN. George, good to see you back, man. And good luck on Saturday. My pleasure, Chris. Thank you so much. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Mauricio Suleman and George. George Camposos for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel

and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do of retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10, I was having trouble

stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild. I mean, it was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.