The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Ryan, Canelo latest

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Mannix and longtime boxing journalist Lance Pugmire discuss Ryan Garcia’s recent behavior, Canelo Alvarez zeroing in on Jaime Munguia, Jake Paul’s win, Raymond Ford’s statement performance, more. Plus Eddie Hearn and Oscar De La Hoya sit down to discuss the state of boxing. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and all the shows we do in your feed every single week. So it has been a very interesting week in the boxing world. You had some good events over the weekend, headlined by Ray Ford's win over Audubach Kolmotov. You had some drama and some ongoing drama in boxing regarding the mental health and future of Ryan Garcia and the contract status of Canelo Alvarez. Right now, Ryan Garcia, still slated to, face Devin Haney on April 20th at the Barclays Center in New York, but just a lot going on

in Ryan Garcia's world. And Canello seems to have zeroed in on Jaime Mungia as his next opponent, but there is some uncertainty about what platform that will be on and who will be promoting that particular event. Lance Pugbeyer, longtime boxing journalist now working over at pay-per-view.com and boxing scene.com. He joins me to unpack all of it. From the recent revelations about Ryan Garcia to where we stand with Canelo, to the whole drama in Puerto Rico where Amanda Serrano pulled out of her fight against Nina Mikey at the very last minute. Talk to Lance about that and much more here on the show.

A little bit later on, a few weeks ago, I had a chance to sit down with Oscar Delahoya and Eddie Hearn one-on-one, face-to-face, to talk about the state of the boxing industry. We talked about doing co-promotions between two promoters who are operating under the DeZone banner. We talked about potential fights that can be made between these two guys. We talked about the impact that Saudi Arabia is having and will continue to have on boxing. It was a really interesting conversation between Eddie Hearn and Oscar Delahoya.

They both joined me this week here on the show. So stick around for that conversation. and much more. All right, when we come back, I'll be joined by Lance Pugmire. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

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And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jek.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84's big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so.

Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Lance Pugmire is here. Longtime Boxing Writer, now with Paperview.com and Boxing Scene.

Lance, seeing your byline more on Boxing Scene.com, welcome back to the the regular boxing beat, my friend. Thank you so much, buddy. I'm so happy to be back, and it's a great opportunity. It's a busy time, too, in the boxing world, as it always is. But we've got a lot going on outside the ring. I want to talk about what we saw in the ring with Ray Ford this past weekend. The fight down in Puerto Rico headlined suddenly by Jake Paul.

But we've got to talk about Ryan Garcia right off the bat, because this was the big news over the weekend. In the aftermath of what was a strange two-city press tour last week, concerns about Garcia's mental health have increased over the last few days. Ryan has acted erratically, we can say, on social media, posting messages like this could be curtains and a bizarre video where he pretended that someone from Devin Haney's camp had come to kill him.

Garcia insisted last week that all these posts are trolling, but then we saw his ex take to Instagram on Sunday and effectively say that Ryan is not okay. So as we record this on Monday, the fight with Devin Haney has not been canceled yet, but I'm being told that there are serious concerns from members of his family about his well-being and serious concern within Golden Boy,

both for Ryan as a person that promoted him for most of his pro career, and for the fight itself. I mean, Golden Boy has already spent, you know, six figures on the promotion of this fight. And there are questions being asked, I think, internally over there about whether it is wise to pull the plug now before they spend even more money

and potentially have to pull the plug later. So what have you, what's your reaction to what you've seen over the last couple of days? And can you add anything to that about, you know, what's happening with Ryan? Yeah, you know, a couple things come to mind immediately, Chris, is that it's fine that he, if he is trolling, I wrote a story last week for boxing scene saying, is this gamesmanship or is it game over for Ryan Garcia? And the thing is, is that it's fine to be trolling and kidding around and stuff like that. But of all the subjects that he could be trolling over mental health.

is really not one that he should be wanting to take on, right? I mean, he's got his own history with this issue, and it is very sensitive and delicate. So it's not something to really be making light of, you know, it just comes across this port-haste. And so I think that gives you an indication to sort of embrace these concerns that are out there, that this is not gamesmanship. This is real. This is someone really kind of struggling with things. And I think we saw those things in play.

I covered the second part of the tour with the stop at Hollywood's avalan theater. And Ryan seemed pretty shaken. I mean, there was one point, I don't know if you watched the whole thing, but toward the end, the close of it. Devin Haney and his father were asking Ryan repeatedly, are you going to show up for the fight? Are you going to show up for the fight? And there was no response. There was nothing from Ryan Garcia. And, you know, following that, he, you know, did a quick face off with Devin Haney and seemed in a very huge hurry to leave the stage and talk to none of us.

I had, I mean, I don't want to get into this too much, but like we had a, as a distributor, we had like a deal in place for him to talk. He not only blew off me, which is fine, but he blew off all the reporters who were waiting the talk to him with the scrum. And, you know, it's like, this is something that's going to help you. know, this is something that's going to make your fight as big as possible. Why would you do this unless you truly are shaken up and affected by this? And it seemed like more real. That is more real than this, you know, gamesmanship or trolling that he's making reference to. Yeah, and I was in New York for the first leg of that press tour. And I did a one-on-one with Ryan Garcia, and I did the face-off between Ryan Garcia and Devin Haney. And both of them,

Lance, I can say, were different than the usual sit downs I've had with Ryan Garcia in the past. He just wasn't himself. Now, his voice was hoarse during that. He claimed it was because of screaming during promotional events or promotional situations that he had to do. I'm not sure I buy that necessarily. But more importantly, he just didn't seem like. himself and every and that's just not me saying that everybody around that event saw that and felt that from Ryan Garcia and look to see him stand up there at the dais in Los Angeles and say look

I drink and I smoke weed and so doesn't everybody else in this room that may be true yeah but elite athletes don't do that right people trying to be the best at their craft don't that. Floyd Mayweather, for all his warts, he was not a drinker and not a smoker. He was, you know, he treated his body like a temple. You and I both know that. André Ward, another example, same thing. Treated his body like a temple. Terrence Crawford currently, not going to catch him. I remember being at the Creed 3 premiere just about a year ago. And Terrence was there. And like there's an after party and a lot of people drinking, including myself. And Terrence was not, though.

Like, Terrence is just there and he's kind of sipping on water and just hanging out. And look, that's what elite athletes do. You, during this time in your career, you take care of your body to the best of your ability. That's not to say you can't ever drink. It can't ever smoke. It can't ever, you know, have vices. But, you know, look, Ryan, when he said that, is less than two months away from a schedule of fight. and that was a big red flag to me.

Now, Devin Haney, I messaged with him on Sunday night. He has no idea what's going on. As far as he knows, the fight is still on. Bill Haney messaged me Monday morning, as far as he knows, the fight is still on. So the Haney's have not been told anything. But I do know that there is genuine concern as we speak on Monday about the health of Ryan Garcia. And I think that in the next 24 hours, Lance, this is going to get resolved.

By the time people listen to this podcast, there may be some more answers to the question of what's going to happen with this fight. But I would say it's fair to say that this fight is in jeopardy at the moment. Well, look, it was very clear. Arnold Barbosa Jr. was at this news conference in L.A. And he said, you know, without a doubt, that, hey, I know that I'm in position as the backup fighter here. It will not, but I should say this. If the plug gets pulled on this fight this week, it will not be hainy Barbosa. That will not happen.

You know, Barbosa is there in case something crazy happens fight week and they can't go through with the fight. But given that we're talking in early March, my understanding is if this fight gets scrapped, Devin will move on to something else entirely. He's got a promoter, de facto promoter in Eddie Hearn, who will find something else for him. I feel very comfortable with Lance saying it will not be Haney Arlo Barbose on April 20th. Very interesting. You know, it's a shame because we both know Ryan Garcia very well. And we hope that, you know, whatever is going on with him right now can be.

can be tended to, you know, and he's, he's, he's had, look, he's had issues with mental health in the past that he has, I would say, bravely dealt with, you know, faced backlash from people that just have been uninformed and uneducated on his situation. And I thought he was a real example for, for people in those situations. I think he's in a difficult place right now. I don't think this is trolling. I don't think this is just part of a promotion. And I think his ex going on social on Sunday, you know, kind of further validated that, you know, further put a stamp on that. So we do hope for the best for Ryan, one way or the other. But I don't think it's our stretch to say this fight right now as we speak is in jeopardy. Another fight that is not in jeopardy,

but is probably going to get made. We just don't know where it's going to get made is Canelo Alvarez. Last week, Lance, Canello had a very public split with PBC over the choice of opponents, right? Canello reportedly wanted to face Jamal Charlo. PBC was willing to put him in with Jamal Charlo and pay the freight if Canello committed to fighting David Benavides in September of this year. That didn't happen. So the three-fight deal between Canello and PBC seemed to abruptly end after one fight. In the last couple of days, Canelo, led by Eddie Renoso, has reengaged with PBC. And there is some momentum to do a Canelo Jaime Mungia fight on a PBC platform, presumably Amazon Prime. Now, this is interesting because that's the exact fight, Lance, that we thought was going to happen. But we thought it was going to happen as part of a matchroom golden boy collaboration. And the fight would be streamed on the zone. Now, it seems like there is momentum for Canello to fight Mungia on Amazon as part of a PBC platform.

Now, the big question with this fight landing on Amazon is, can Jaime Munga just go and do it? Right? Because, you know, on Sunday, or Saturday, I should say, Eddie Hearn was asked about the possibility of Canello Mungia winding up with PPC. and Eddie referred to Mungia as a dezone fighter. I have been told that Golden Boy does have a contract with Jaime Mungia. How strong that contract is, and if that contract would effectively block Mungia from fighting Canelo on Amazon, is very much unclear.

So I think it's pretty safe to say at this point that Canelo's next opponent is going to be Jaime Mungia. The question is, and this is probably a question fans, frankly, don't give a damn about. But the question is, where will it wind up? Will it be an Amazon Prime pay-per-view with PBC, or will it be a DeZone pay-per-view with Golden Boy, potentially Matchroom and that side of the street? What do you think of all this? Well, the fact that, you know, Amazon Prime and PBC are in the mix, to me, it goes to show someone believes that Jaime Mangea is not too tethered to Golden Boy and DeZone, right? So,

to even have those conversations, you must feel as if there's an out in place. And, you know, to just look, I don't have that papers in front of me, Chris. You probably don't have the contracts in front of you either. But when you already, when these conversations are going on, clearly someone from the Mungia side feels as if they can escape and get over to PBC and Amazon Prime and take that fight. Yeah, there clearly are people that believe that. And maybe it's true. I mean, Mungia has fought his last 12 fights on the zone. I know there was an issue in making a Mungia, Jermal-Charlo fight a couple of years ago because of Mungia's relationship with the zone. One theory I've heard floated by people involved is that this could wind up being a similar situation to what happened with Garcia and Tank Davis, where PBC takes the lead.

It becomes an Amazon Prime pay-per-view, but it is also distributed by DeZone. DeZone gets money for being a part of it. What's interesting is PBC kind of coming back to the table and being willing to pay the freight for a fight like this. Like, oh, if he fights Hyman Mungia, his guarantee is going to be north of $30 million. $5 million, I would imagine, is going to ask for anything in between $5 and $8 million for that fight. Strictly speaking, I don't really understand PBC's relationship with Amazon and how much money they are getting to put on these types of fights. It really depends on who you talk to.

Some people say it's no money. Some people say there's a small amount of money. The reality is, if Amazon wanted to do a Mungia-Kinello fight, they could reach between the couch cushions and come up with the money to put that fight on. Amazon has a market cap of $1.85 trillion, trillion with a T. So they can do whatever they want when it comes to putting on big events. I just don't know what their motivation is, or if they have a motivation to do this.

My understanding throughout has been this is not a typical promoter in the case of PBC and licenser in the case of Amazon, as it has been in years past, as it is with Golden Boy and Matchroom and DeZone, showtime with what they had with PBC. It's a different model that has been constructed with Amazon. But as we speak right now, it does sound like things are trending towards that fight winding up on Amazon.

I think the question would be, too, is it a one-fight deal for Canello to fight Haimea Megia on Amazon? Or does it reconstitute the three-fight deal they had? Because I've heard Canello was still talking about doing, a fight against Jamal Charlotte. I don't think PBC has any interest in doing a Canelo-Charlo fight because, well, look,

I think they'd have interest if the guarantees were way lower than what Kenilo was asking for the first time around. But right now, you know, it's trending towards Canelo-Mungia on a PBC platform and it could be part of a two-fight deal.

Yeah, you know, there's a lot to unpack there. There's a lot to report there. I'm only three days back, Chris, so give me a little time and I'll get to the bottom of it, I promise, or at least try to. It is very interesting. Obviously, Canelo is the cash cow of the sport. You see the BBC ads are on Amazon and who's the fighter that's up there.

It's Canelo Alvarez. So clearly, whatever the relationship is between Amazon and PBC, Amazon is hooking itself to Canelo Alvarez and making a big deal that, you know, Canelo Alvarez is going to be fighting on Prime. So, you know, look, it behooves them. It behooves everyone involved on that side to have Canelo Alvarez in the ring. It's going to be very interesting because I know that, you know, one of the things that we're seeing in the first prime pay-per-view, headline by Keith Thurman versus Tim Zhu, is that's a pretty quality card.

And I think that's one of the things that's going on, you know, for a good thing for this sake of boxing and good thing, you know, you know, for PBC what they're doing, is trying to make these, these full cards as good as they can can. And so it's going to be interesting, you know, we know that Canelo versus anyone is going to do well. This is going to be the first all-Mexican showdown for Canello since Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. in 2017. And, you know, certainly the lifeblood of the sport,

broadcasting-wise is the Mexican fight fan, but what else are they going to do to beef up that card and make it appealing to the masses? You know, because, again, this is, yes, this one that's coming at the end of March is their debut, but really the Canelo fight is the debut of PBC on Prime. So I'm eager to see the way this whole thing plays out. Obviously, I think it's going to get resolved this week.

I think we're all bracing for that. Canello versus Mangia is, you know, not the fight that all of us want, which is David Benavitos. But, you know, I'm not even going to say it's the next best thing, but it is interesting. I mean, we go back. I think we've gone back and forth in the past about Jaime Mangia. I've always been a pretty big fan. I like the kid. I think that the fact that he's working now with Freddie Roach is pretty interesting. He did look good in stopping a guy that Conello didn't stop. And he deserves the fight. You know, he deserves the fight, and I'm happy that, you know, we're almost here. Yeah, he's earned the opportunity, certainly a lot more than Edgar Berlanga has, a lot more than

Jamal Charlo has. He's not going to win. Look, it's going to be a fun, if it's Mungia Canelo, it's a fun fight for as long as it last. But at some point, Hyman Mungia is going to walk into an absolute bomb. That's my prediction in the fight. I think he might win a few rounds, especially early on. We know Cinello.

He takes some time off early on to kind of figure out his opponent. Mungia could win those rounds on activity alone. But my early guess, if that fight materializes, is fifth or sixth round. He just walks into something huge. And Mugia has been hit before a lot. He's been wobbled before a couple of times. He's never faced a puncher, the caliber of Canelo Alvarez. I think at some point that ends with a spectacular knockout.

But I'm here for it. If it's not David Benavides, I think Jaime Mugia is the next, best option right up there with Terrence Crawford but Canello's made it clear he's not going to fight Terrence Crawford and you're right I can see why Amazon would really want that fight to happen on Amazon Prime because look let's be real and I talked about this last week

as a boxing purist I do love the March 30th card I will watch it I will pay for it I'm into it but you do need a competitive main event a marquee main event to sell pay per views And Lance, I've said this before. Keith Thurman has a 0.0% chance of winning that fight. He is not winning that fight. It's not happening.

And I say this as a Keith Thurman fan, someone that has covered him, someone's been in the gym with him in St. Petersburg. I like the guy. But he has one fight in like three and a half years, almost four years. He ain't beaten Tim Zhu at 154. Like, we got to stop pretending that's competitive. We've got to stop believing that an older, 147 pound fighter is going to move up and do damage on a bigger, stronger, getting better by the

day, active 154. That's crazy talk. It is crazy talk and it is journalistic malpractice to make believe that Keith Thurman is going to be competitive in this fight. It is just not going to happen, Lance. So that card is for the boxing purist that wants to see Boychuk versus Fondor. that wants to see all the good stuff that's on that card. You know, Erisland-Lara back on that card.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look, there's good quality action on the undercard. But as we've seen time and again, the main event is what sells pay-per-view. The main event is what draws in the casual fans, and that's just not a competitive main event. So, Canelo-Mungia might not be competitive either, but it's a 42-0 Mexican versus

is one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world. That has appeal, I think, even to the casual fans, so I can see why Amazon Prime would be interested. Now, let me ask you this. As someone that has covered Canello for a long time, the Benavides stuff, does it surprise you that Canello is showing no interest in fighting David Benavides?

Because with due respect to some of the stuff Eddie Hern has said this week, if Canello wanted to fight David Benavides, the money's there, the marketing is there, the interest is there. What do you make of Canello's disinterest in fighting Benavides? Look, we all have our blind spots, right? And I think that I'm stunned that Canello on the heels of, you know, whether it's the old Golofcan, John Ryder, the fight against Charlo, which, you know, just completely became so one-sided.

that he would not say, look, I'm due for a classic. You know, I need to, I throw that in. It's time on the schedule where we need to make this fight. But look, I mean, he, in his rearview mirror, he watched the way that Mayweather Pachio played out, you know, that both guys, you know, especially Mayweather, were held up to the scrutiny of why aren't you taking this fight? Why aren't you taking this fight?

And by the time it took place, it was the biggest selling pay-per-view of all time. So in his mind, he may be saying one of two things, you know, and I actually lean on the side of he's saying, I'm trying to build this up down the road to make it as big as it could be. But he also easily may be absolutely ducking him. And Benavides could be gone to light heavyway and forever gone from the division and from this fight, which would be a damn shame because this fight is so right for the making right now. I'm very surprised by it. I would like to have Canello really kind of like weigh in and talk about this situation at length, you know, to talk to break down what he is thinking because all of us are sort of scratching our heads. We know Canella. We know that he, you know, jumped into the Mayweather fight.

He jumped into, you know, it's like Trow and Lara and, you know, even Golofkin, you know, Goloften was still a. a damn good fighter when he fought him the first couple times. So it's amazing to me. You know, is he, is this part of this exit strategy that he has to just get as much, make as much cash as he can before he leaves the sport? You would think, look, Chris, if he's going to beat Benavitas, he's going to need to fight him right now because in a year it's not going to happen. Yeah, well, it's interesting.

I had a manager, I was talking to one. one the other day. And this is nothing to do with the, this is not in the context of Canelo Benavides, but one thing he said to me was the older superstar doesn't fight the younger superstar, not unless the money is so extraordinary that you have to, to take it. And that's kind of what we're looking at right now. Canello is in his mid-30s at this point. Benavides, younger, in his prime, bigger, you know, there's a lot of attributes that are positive for David Benavita. So it's interesting to hear you say that maybe he's potentially building it up because I can see a pathway where this fight does get

bigger, right? Let's say David Benavides hangs around 175. Let's say he stops Alexander Vostick if that's the next fight for him in four or five rounds. And let's say that leads to a shot against the winner of Dimitri Bevel against Archer-Betterbe. And let's say David Benavides wins that fight. All of a sudden, Davidinevarez, as the undisputed champion at 175 is 10 times more marketable than he is right now. So maybe there's some thought to that in the mind of Canelo Alvarez. Or maybe it is him just looking for the biggest paydays at the least risk, which, by the way, is not an unusual situation for a fighter the caliber of Canelo Alvarez.

And, you know, at this stage of his career, let's rewind the tape a little bit at the end for Floyd Mayweather. Yeah. Didn't exactly fight in their prime world beaters, right? Had some good names on his resume, but Shane Mosley was well past his prime at that point. Andre Berto at the end, well past his prime. Marcos Maidana, good fight, no need for two of them, but he fought guys that presented some risk,

but not the highest risk. And because of his contract situation with Showtime, he got the most reward out of it. So, you know, look, all fighter, Delaware did that back in the day. you go down the list. Guys, you know, when they reach this point where they are cash cows, they are selective with their opponents. They're not looking to take on the kind of killers that they were early in his career.

So it's one thing for Canelo, the young guy, to take on Floyd when he's 23 years old, or to take on Lara when he's 23, 24 years old, or take on Golofkin. It was the older fighter at that point at that stage. It's different when it comes to David Benavita. So I'm not ready to close the door just yet on Canelo Benavides, but I do think it would take, it's going to take a big, big win for David Benavides is to get Canelo interested in that type of fight. Yeah, it's just so unlike Canello.

I mean, we've both covered his entire career. It doesn't make any sense from the guy we know, you know, and all the things that he says about the history of boxing and legacy and all that stuff. there's no way that all those things that he said, you know, he can believe that and not understand the possibility of how great the stain would be on his career by not fighting better. You think I, see, that's why you lose me there.

I don't think the stain's that great. Like, I don't. I think he's a first ballot Hall of Famer no matter what. Like, how do we sit here and talk about how Floyd didn't fight Antonio Margarito or Paul Williams in their prime? It's a blip on the radar. I think that's what Benavides would wind up being if Canelo ultimately decides not to face it.

Do you think that's how Benavitas is going to end up, though? What, not fighting him? No, I mean, basically ended up as like Antonio Margarito. No, he's not going to be considered that at the end of his career, right? No, no, I'm saying, though, like Floyd took criticism at the time for not fighting Margarito. not fighting Paul Williams, two guys that were big time at Welterweight at that point. But we don't talk about Floyd ducking them in the context of his legacy is what I'm saying.

So I don't think it'll be a stain on Canello's legacy at all if he doesn't fight him. Like if he fights three or four more times, if he fights Mungia, knocks him out. If he fights Edgar Berlanga, knocks him out. I don't know who we would fight in 2025. That's a conversation for another day. but if he just continues to fight B-level contenders for the rest of his career, maybe he fights one of these, you know, look just like Floyd did. Maybe he fights a big-time MMA star who's in and around his weight class.

I don't think this would be, yeah, we're going to get to that in a moment. But I don't, I just don't think this would be a stain on his legacy. I think he's done enough that his legacy is secure. No, I agree with you. He's in the Hall of Fame for sure. I'm just saying I think Benavides could, he has the potential to be, an all-time great, you know, who can move up all the way up, perhaps. I do think, I do think, Lance, though, we have to acknowledge that if Benavides had a 168-pound

title, I think Kelle would have fought him. I don't think we're having this discussion if Benavitas hadn't lost his belt twice because of outside the ring issues. Like, you know, Bennett, look, and I hate, as I like David, because David's not only a great fighter, but a great guy as well. but he had opportunities to keep that belt when Canello was hunting them, and he lost one because of a non-PED drug issue, and he lost one on the scale. So he kind of put himself in this situation, too, I think has to be said.

So we'll see, you know, I just don't think it's a bit that big a deal. I think I'd like to see it, much more than I'd like to see Mungia, much more than I'd like to see Berlanga. I'd still kind of like to see Crawford, but Canelo seems to have no interest in doing it. that, but I don't think it's going to be any kind of a mark on his career. So let's talk about the card in Puerto Rico this past weekend, Lance, a card that you covered for boxing scene. Weird, weird, weird scene in Puerto Rico. So let's start with the main event and what happened

with Amanda Serrano and Nina Mikey. This was supposed to be Amanda Serrano's big homecoming. She was the headliner. Jake Paul was the co-made event. She was defending her titles. There supposedly 18,000 fans in the building. And right before the start of the main event, Amanda Serrano, accompanied by Tito Trinidad, comes to the ring to announce that she cannot fight, that the doctors refuse to clear her to fight because of an issue with her eye,

an issue that she says was caused by a chemical that was put in her hair earlier in the week, this chemical caused some kind of eye injury and the doctors in Puerto Rico declined to clear her. I've seen some strange things happen, lads in boxing. This was right up there among the very strangest. I know you talked to Nekisa Padarian

who is the head of MVP promotions. Credit to them for refunding or saying they're going to refund all the tickets for that event, saying they're going to pay Nina's purse and it's entirely. That is a great move. by MVP. But what did you make of the explanation for why Amanda Serrano could not fight on Saturday?

Well, I mean, the thing is, is that I think Jake Paul said it best. You know, he's absolutely right. You don't mess around with an eye injury in boxing. We've, look, we've covered the careers of guys like Abner Maras, Israel Vasquez, you know, guys that have- Margarito. Margarito, so many. And we know the history of Sugar Ray Leonard. Errol Spence right now. Errol Spence. You know, all of this is, you know, you don't mess around with it. You're absolutely right. But the, my, I guess my point, and I tried to write about this inboxing scene, is that once you knew that this was going on, why don't you intervene immediately and say, and let everyone know, hey, she's not going to be able to fight. She's got this substance in her eye. This is not going to heal in time.

If the cornea is exposed on fight night, I'm sure the cornea was exposed the day before when they examined it. And I know Nikisa said in a statement that it was a private doctor that examined Amanda Serrano. It seems to me that they should have had a commission doctor who ultimately, you know, Amanda said, stopped the fight to have been there on Friday as well and examined Amanda and said, like, look, you cannot step in the ring or we, you know, huddle and conference and get this sorted out, that we need to scrap this. Instead of, you know, look, there was a a lot of reporting from the DeZone on the zone broadcast about what's going on, even though we had a lot of

social media reports that, look, Amanda Serrano's got an eye issue and it's very dicey about whether or not she's going to fight. So I just think leaving everyone in the dark for so long is not a great look and allowing it to continue to this point where basically it looked like they were trying to rely on Amanda Serrano with her incredible fighting spirit. know we know what an incredible talent she is and what her warrior mentality is. She's not going to

want to shy from a from a fight, but someone else needs to step in and intervene. And unfortunately, it came a little too late, I think. Yeah. What was strange about that scene in the ring among, excuse me, excuse me, that among other things was that Amanda was in the ring in sweats, right? Amanda knew for hours she wasn't going to fight. When they cut to her in the dressing room, she was not getting taped up. She was sitting there. Tito was there.

She knew she wasn't going to fight on Saturday night. Nina is in the ring in her boxing gear with her hands wrapped, which struck me as incredibly strange. Like, clearly, Nina believed over the last couple of hours that there was a possibility that she was going to fight. So she was ready to go. Amanda was not. I don't know. Whole thing struck me as very weird.

Amanda says she's going to be back in Puerto Rico. I saw Jake Paul announce April 26th is the next MVP date. We'll see if that's another homecoming for Amanda Serrano. They obviously did pretty well with ticket sales. Maybe they'll run that back in Puerto Rico. I do think, though, I was hearing some stuff in the days before. While I don't think that Amanda Serrano and Katie Taylor is going to happen this summer, I think that Katie's going to fight Chantelle Cameron in a trilogy fight.

this summer at 140 pounds. I have heard some things, Lance, about a Serrano-Taylor fight maybe in Vegas towards the end of this year, which is, look, Katie has said often that she wants to fight in Vegas. She wants a big fight in Vegas.

They don't get any bigger in the U.S. than Taylor Serrano 2 in Las Vegas. So I would expect Amanda to come back, defender titles at 126. I don't think she's going to fight Alicia Baumgartner. That's not the sense I get from people in the business. would be an interesting fight for all of Baumgartner's belts at 130 pounds. So I would expect her to come back at some point the next few months and keep an eye

on Taylor Serrano 2, potentially later in the year. That's just some chatter I heard from Taylor's side, which is trying to figure out her schedule right now as they move into the second half or end of the first half of this year. Also on that card, we had Jake Paul. Jake improved the 9-1 with a win over the 6th. somehow 17 and 2, Ryan Borland. Like how Ryan Borland got 17 wins is a matchmaking miracle. That's what that is.

Because Ryan Borland is not a very good fighter. Seems like a good guy. Oil rigor in North Dakota, family manned, not a boxer. Gets knocked out in the first round, an incredibly predictable first round knockout. That was Jake's second straight first round knockout against quote unquote real boxers with winning records. I know, Lance, that people have been pushing for Jake Paul to fight these actual boxers, guys with resumes, but after two of them, this really isn't it. It's really not it.

Andre August, Golden Gloves champion, Bill, going into that fight, he didn't have a chance. Ryan Borland had no chance. I could have told you that when I saw them at the press conference. the first press conference that they showed up at, no chance going to that fight. To me, Jake's got to make a pivot here. I don't think he can fight another Andre August Ryan Borland type. There's just no interest in it. I think he's either got to fight somebody that's in the rankings,

and I'm not even talking about top 15. We know the WBC puts out top 40 rankings. Like fight somebody in the WBC top 40. Or he's got to fight a retired ex-champion with a name. You know, a couple of guys I suggested. One was my good pal, Sergio Amora, who has been aching for that fight for some time. I tweeted out something like this. I saw Caleb Truax, a former super middleweight champion, put his hand up.

He's ready to fight Jake Paul. Somebody with a name to fight or go back to the influencer MMA route. I know they've been trying to make a fight with KSI. They'd love to make a fight again with Tommy Fury. I just think we've seen enough of the Andre August. and Ryan Borland's. Yes, technically, they are real boxers, but they are not good. No matter what their record says, they are not good. So I think Jake needs to make a pivot here because while I admire the activity, four fights in a year, Lance, that's not nothing.

I do think he needs to change tact and go for a different type of fighter. Well, I mean, look, not too long ago, WBC was talking about putting him in their rankings, right? So if you'd be Tommy, he would have been, yeah. You know, so why not, you know, see where you're at. Fight one of those guys that's in the rankings. It is, I mean, look, he's got to, you're absolutely right. He's got to take one or two paths. He's got to say, I'm going to go, I'm going to go for this division.

I'm going to try to move up through the ranks in this division, seriously, by fighting ranked guys. Or I've got to, you know, go back to fighting the KSIs of the world and these other, you know, more social events, you know, where he, you know, it's going to get some traffic on social media. Yeah, look, there are cruiser weights you could fight that aren't very good, but are in those WBC rankings. At least that gives you a measure of credibility. Yeah. If you're going to fight one of these guys,

just kind of finding the Andre August and Ryan Borland's who happened to have winning records is not, it. I think the appetite for that is already out the door. Last point on this Puerto Rico card. We had the global debut, which is really a word way of saying, his second fight, of Javon Wana Walton, who is an actor turned boxer. You've seen him in Euphoria. Excellent there.

Loved his role in Samaritan. It's an Amazon movie. I watched terrific. Really good young actor. 17 years old and is making the pivot back to his first love. And he got a measure of TV exposure in this fight where he fought Jose Torres. This did not go well for Javon Walton. It was a majority draw.

It easily could have been a loss. This was a guy, Lance, that was put in front of him for Javon Walton to look good. And he didn't. You've seen a lot of prospects come through the pipeline. What was your take on Javon Walton? I think that, you know, my colleague, Karen Milvaney, talked about this, and I thought he made a great point. He said, this is why guys need to fight at two in the afternoon with no one watching, you know,

against guys that they know are going to win. Walking into that experience is significant. And, you know, you put them on the main card, so to speak. There's a lot of things going on beyond paying attention to your boxing skill, you know. And so, look, he was a little bit overwhelmed by it all, I believe, and paid the price. And now he's got this mark on his record. Yeah, look, he's 17 years old, so there's a long runway. Oh, yeah.

The issue, the problem I have with considering him a prospect is that when I look at young prospects, I look for some kind of exceptional skill, whether it's the speed of a Ryan Garcia, the power of a Diego Pacheco, the defense and skill set of Shakur Stevenson. You look for something that stands out. There was nothing that stood out about Jamon Walton. He didn't have great speed. He didn't have good power. he had a decent jab, but against a guy that was probably literally pulled off the street a couple of weeks ago, who was 0 and 1. Oh, and 1, he struggled. And my fear for Walton is that at some point, when he gets the 3 and 0 or 4 and 0 or 5 in O, MVP is going to pick the wrong Mexican or the wrong Colombian and put him in with a puncher who lands a big shot that puts Javon Walton out.

So I give him credit for doing this. Probably makes good money as an actor. He's got 5 million Instagram followers. The press for that fight was legit. I saw him everywhere from TMZ to USA Today. It was everywhere. So I understand the appeal of working with Javon Walton, but I didn't see it, Lance.

Like I didn't see anything exceptional in his skill set. And that's what I'm looking for right off the bat. Like I'm looking for some kind of blurring speed. I'm looking for some kind of fight-changing power. Didn't have that. And look, landed some shots. The heavier shots were landed by Torres in this fight.

He just didn't have any power either. And my concern is that there's a Mexican or a Colombian out there that's going to have some dog shit record that MVP's going to put Walton in with, and this guy's going to get clocked. So that was not what I was thinking I was going to see from Javon Walden in that fight. So no long way to go.

He needs to do what Jake Paul did or stick to acting. You know, he needs to make a make, a full commitment or go to, you know, stay in Hollywood. Yeah, I don't even know if it's like, you know, Jake doesn't, like Jake has power. Like, if you're trying to identify a skill of Jake Paul's power, right? He does have a good right hand. I didn't see that from Walden. Maybe he develops it over time, but the best attribute he had was a half decent jab. And that's not going to get you very far in boxing, especially if you're being hyped as the next big thing, which, again, puts outside.

expectations on this kid. He doesn't deserve that. But if it's not there, it's not there. And I didn't see it from Walton in that fight. Last thing for you, Raymond Ford. Raymond Ford becomes Matrum's very first debut to champion fighter with an unbelievable knockout win over Audubek Kolmotov. This was a fight that I picked Kolmatov to win.

I picked Kolmotov to win by knockout. And three rounds in, Lance, I felt pretty good about that prediction. You had some left hands of landing from Kolmatoff. You had some just missing by Kolmatov. I just thought it was only a matter of time before Kolmitov scored a knockout. But to his credit, Ray Ford changed strategy mid-fight. He became the aggressor. He started walking Kolmatov down.

And then with seven seconds left in the fight, he sent Kolmatov to the ropes. Kolmotov turned his back and referee Charlie Fitch stopped. the fight. No issue whatsoever with that stoppage. I saw some of that on social media shouldn't have stopped it. No. You cannot turn your back on the referee or on a fight. If you do that, it gives the referee

license to step in and stop the fight. I thought the worst thing that happened to Kolmatov was the referee ruled the situation where he went down as a push. If he had called that a knockdown, Kolmatov would have went down. He would have been given 10 seconds to recover, probably longer because you don't get right back into it.

And because he was up 106-103 on the scorecards entering that final round, he would have won the fight if it was just that one knockdown. So that turned out to be the worst-case scenario for Kulmetov. But Ray Ford, you tell me, what did you think of that performance? Because I didn't think Ray Ford had that in him. It was a complete 180.

You're absolutely right. I mean, you've seen more of his fights than I have, but I've seen some real stinkers where it's like he really kind of like he was definitely a muted version of who he was on Saturday night. That was so impressive. You know, like you said, those bombs were sort of coming his way and instead of shrinking from them, he just stood up to them. And he ended up, I mean, it was pretty quick. I would say by round five, he's starting to bully the guy from Uzbekistan. And it was so impressive. You know, the fact that everything that he did, and especially the way he finished that fight,

this kid's got a great future in front of him. And now you see, you know, everything that Eddie Hearn and Matrum liked about him in the first place was fully revealed in a top-rank fight, so to speak. So it was great to see. Great thing for the sport. Incredible performance. So much drama, right?

I mean, with him laid out on his back to the canvas and celebration, It was very emotional, and you saw Eddie Hearn very emotional too. I mean, so much of this sport, right, Chris, is like scripted and planned, and you kind of know what the outcome is. And to see that, what we saw Saturday night was so special and it speaks to why we really love the sport. This really was the completion of a two-year turnaround for Raymond Ford. As you mentioned, I've called a lot of Raymond Ford fights over the, years, including the fight he had in Phoenix back in 2022, where he got a gift against Edward Vasquez. He got a gift. Came away with a decision win. That was a fight he rightfully

deserved to lose. To Ray Ford's credit, he responded to that, you know, quote, win by changing things up, changing members of his team, changing his training habits. And he responded from that with three really impressive wins, including one knockout win over the previous three fights. So he was building towards this, towards having this in him. The fighter I saw in 2022 did not have this in him. He would have gotten knocked out by Kolmatov. The fighter since then had this in him and had the ability to rally and come up with a stoppage against a guy that was arguably the most feared guy in the 126-pound division.

Nobody wanted to fight Kolmatov. He was a used Becky's fighter with a lot of. of power and a deep amateur background. Those guys don't get big fights. Ray Ford put his hand up, took the fight for 126 pound title, and had the best performance of his career. And now I hope he stays at 126 for at least one more fight. I know Ray struggles mightily to make 126.

It is almost a miracle when he gets on the scale, and I see it under 126. But, and I think Eddie referred to this, like the currency is in the belt, right? Like, you can move up to 130, but you are a former chance. champion at 130. Your currency is at 126. And I thought Eddie made a good point about this fight coming up on Friday between Nick Ball and Ray Vasquez. If Nick Ball beats Ray Vasquez for the WBC version of 126-pound title, Nick Ball is promoted by Queensberry. Ray Ford is promoted by Matchroom. At some point in June or July, we're going to see Queensberry versus Matchroom. That's a chance for Ray Ford to not only unify the titles, but to get a big bag of cash for.

If that fight is over in Saudi Arabia. And look, I've talked to people in Ray Ford's team. They've told me, like, look, he's got to let that cut heal because that was a pretty nasty cut below that was it left eye. But if it does, and the money's right, he'll be there for that 126-pound unification fight. So I'd like to see Ray Ford go one more time. He's going to be rooting for Nick Ball harder than anybody in Saudi Arabia

on Friday afternoon because that fight Ford versus Ball in Saudi, Matron versus Queensbury. It's going to be a big check, Lance, attached to it. A big check for Ray Ford. So great performance. It was his weekend, no doubt about it. Yeah. Lance Pugmark, check his stuff out up at payperview.com.

You can read him on boxing scene.com. Lance, good to have you back, my friend. We'll have to do this again sometime soon. Thank you so much, Chris. All right, so I know many of you out there have had a frustrating experience buying tickets. I am an avid concert goer to some of the bands that I've liked to see in the past. It has been Tom Petty.

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Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw,

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show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day but just so y'all know

I mean at this point Mark this is the second episode where we've discussed crack so I'm starting to see there's a through line We also have AIDS on the table right now so

Thank you finishing that sentence I don't think there's a more important year for black people Really? Yeah for me it's one of the most important years for black people in American history Listen to look back at it

on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts All right, Oscar Delahoya, Eddie Hearn, two of the most influential people in boxing who came together, friends now, made a big fight between Jaime Mungia and John Ryder. See, that wasn't so hard, right? Not at all. Not at all. Not a lot. Well, that's what it's all about. First of all, thank you. Thank you for sitting down. And, you know, it really is a pleasure that we can kind of break bread. and just make sure that we have the best fights for the fans. Eddie, making co-promotional deals.

How do you feel about them? Great. I mean, I think that the problem is actually, me and Oscar probably have a similar issue in that we're very outspoken and we do probably rub people up the wrong way sometimes. And the problem in boxing is, Some people, once you do that, will act off in motion rather than actually in the best interest of the fighter or the sport. I said about Bob Aram the other day.

I think actually you could burn Bob Aram's house down and he would still do a deal with you that evening if it was the right deal. Do you what I mean? And he's very good at that because I've seen Bob come up to me, cuddle me and literally 10 yards away in an interview ruin me. You know, and I'm okay with that either. I think I've learned over the years that particularly in America, sometimes they don't quite get our sarcasm and, you know, so, but I do think there's a movement now where people are willing to work more. And I think it really comes down to the networks.

I think the sharing of fights, as we've seen with the SPN lately and DeZone, makes it so much easier. Because we should be doing much more. We have a very open relationship with Eric and those guys where if a fight makes sense, and it still has to make sense. We're not just phoning each other up every day saying, oh, come on. Like Mungir rider, great fight, makes sense for everybody. But there should be no barriers to, particularly us on the same network.

But I do feel in boxing now, with that opening up of the platforms, it is easier to make fights. But it's all down to personal relationships. And, you know, when there is peace, I think it is good for the sport. Oscar, to Eddie's point, when you're trying to make a fight happen, is it challenging to separate the personal from the professional? because you guys do have cameras in your face all the time at these events and sometimes things do get said.

Well, it's like Eddie said. The fight has to make sense. And I've been promoting now for 22 years, you know, and the reason why we've been successful is because we make the right fights. And the right fights at the right time. And if Eddie has fights, if Eddie has fighters that make sense to us,

to Golden Boy. Then we're more than happy to, we're open to making this happen on the zone. We share the same platform. We should be working together more often. We should be the leaders of boxing and show the world that we want to make the great fights for the fans. That's the bottom line. But ultimately, with my experience, the fight has to make sense. Well, Eddie, the zone just announced in Saudi Arabia you're going to see Matrum versus Queensberry 5-on-5. Why not? Matron versus Golden Boy. Yeah, I think, you know, I said it yesterday. I mean, look, our relationship is much better than Matrim's relationship with Queensbury. I mean, to think, like, I've been promoting

for 13 years. I've never met or spoken to Frank Warren in 13 years, which is actually quite, I mean, like, it's really not good for this. The reality is, it's not. The right. Rivalry is good because it keeps us hungry. But we're on the same platform. We get on. I still want to outperform Golden Boy. He still wants to beat Matry. He's a competitor.

And I do have to say, to that respect, I did come out swinging in the beginning. I do have to say that. Yeah, I saw a few tweets. The rivalry and this. That's okay. But it's fine. For me, look, we're trying to build the profile of everything.

The profile of our fighters, the profile of the zone, my profile. And when I've got someone like Oscar, having a pop at me, I never mind that. Like, it's actually positive in a way. As long as we can just understand, it's a game. You know, if I come back and fire at Oscar, as long as he goes, right, you know,

you have a smile on your face. With Queensbury, you know, if myself and Frank Warren can make a card, and it was done, you know, with his excellency and, you know, the power and the financial power of Saudi Arabia, but you know once we broke bread as we said actually it's quite enjoyable

you know there's almost like a feeling between ourselves and queensbury like why didn't we do this earlier and you know there has been situations in the past I mean Oscar just did it with PBC where he did Ryan against Tank look how much money that made for everybody that was a situation where coming together made sense it should be easier for us I still think it's difficult

with other promoters certain promoters and certain platforms because they don't want to share in my opinion as much as we do some of them but as people lose deals as people have to service fighters. You know we've all got obligations to dozens of fighters so we need to keep them active. And you mentioned Eddie making that fight with PBC Ryan Garcia was not easy at all. It was very very difficult but when you make it happen and you fight for your partner the way we did we fought for the zone to be part of that of that promotion and what happens you get the biggest fight of the year for boxing so platforms have to come together promoters have to come together and fighters are willing to fight each other

that's that's the message that we send as promoters you know fighters are willing to fight each other let's just come together and make this happen find one of the biggest obstacles is the managers and the advisors. Do you know, because you're an ex-fire, you know the fighters want the fights. We want the fights. I think one of the biggest sort of incorrect perceptions from fans and people is that promoters stop the fights. We want the biggest fights.

One, because the biggest fights make us money. But two, we don't want to sit ringside at a fight knowing actually, like one of the worst feelings I ever have is going to my own average show. Do you know what I mean? I don't want to go to a show and go I can't believe we've had to pay this guy X and he's in a one-sided fight. You know why? Because we got talked into it. Sure. To doing it. Those for me, that's the main focus of our business now is to stop, is to say no. And if we have to lose a fighter on route, because we're not delivering the best product for our broadcaster, we have to be prepared to do it. That's one of the biggest challenges, you know like and boxing is a unique sport where anybody there's no barriers to enter

you could be dealing with a manager who has absolutely no experience of boxing absolutely no experience of how to guide a fighter and you're locked in a tussle trying to deliver for de zone trying to make the right fight for your business trying to make the right fight for his career it's not easy and I think we all have to as promoters sometimes say no and say no that's not that's not a fight we're prepared to do and you know sometimes you hang on to a fighter because it's like ego you don't want to let him go you know it's just like and we've started to say to fighters look you know we think maybe you should look elsewhere because that's not a fight that's going to deliver value if we don't deliver value for de zone and our

subscribers you know we're we're not doing a right job Oscar what do you think of you mean you've been an influential figure in boxing for more than 30 years going back to your the Olympics in 1992. What do you think of the state of boxing today where it is now compared to where it was when you were first coming up? Well, the problem now is that the big fights are not getting made. To Eddie's point, you know, we have to come together. That's the bottom line, whether it's managers, whether it's promoters. Fighters want to fight each other. You know, fighters, yes, are thinking more about the money. They're thinking more about the bottom line. which makes it a little more difficult because sometimes they don't understand the economics of the fight, of the actual fight.

You know, they have all these whispers in their ears and so it's really difficult for a promoter or for a network to make this fight happen. But over the years, I've noticed now that, for instance, I've worked with Al Heyman, I've worked with Eddie Hearn. And I've worked with everyone, Bob Aram, all the promoters out there. And when you work together, it's like having various platforms promoting a pay-per-view. There's more numbers. There's more pay-per-view buys. It can only get better for the sport, for the actual fight. So what I see different now is that promoters are, yeah, willing to work together with the right fight.

But back in the day, promoters, never work together and therefore boxing is better today I believe than it was in the past you're creating these mega fights now we just did 1.2 3 million homes with Ryan Garcia and Tank Davis there's mega fights we can do together that can surpass that do that you really believe that because boxing I mean you were a mainstream star in your fighting days I don't know how many mainstream stars there are in boxing today and that's what's I think is needed to do the kind of numbers you're talking about? Well, the Olympics was a big part.

I was part of the 1992 Olympic Games, NBC televised it globally. You won a gold medal, you became an instant star. So that obviously helped me a lot. But I strongly feel that when you have the right talent and you're bringing him up the right way, you can create stars. You just have to make sure you have the right opponents, the right marketing, the right platform,

right platform I mean the zone has been incredible Eddie Hearn has been doing a great job a great job promoting these fighters and making sure that boxing is is alive and in the UK what you've done is phenomenal you know I I would love to go to the UK and do some work there the way he's doing work here in the US it can only help boxing and so I just I just feel that as long as we can come together the platforms, the promoters, the managers, there's no reason why we should be bigger than bigger than life. I think all Eddie heard was you did a, Eddie does a phenomenal job. I think that's all he heard. That was the bit where he said come to the UK. I was like, no, we're, what he said

was really interesting. One thing that frustrates me so much is understanding the economics. That's one thing and I think what Oscar would have done coming through as a lot of big fighters do, Anthony Joshua is another good example, Canello Alvarez. They understand, they understand, the economics of a show. Like, where we get to now is sometimes you'll sit down with a fighter. And the value of a purse for them might be $4 million.

They think they should be getting $10 or $15. It's so transparent the way you do a big fight. There's no hidden numbers. You know, the gate is open for all to see, the pay-per-view number, all the revenue is open for all to see. The costs are open for all to see.

So we know the numbers, the actual numbers, but boxing is a unique business where sometimes someone will come along, you know, could be a promoter willing to make a charge, could be a mad investor, could be Saudi Arabia, could be a new platform, and they will pay that number, do what I mean? But for us as a business, that's sometimes the most frustrating point is you sit down with two fighters, Ryan against Devin. You know, Devin could say, I want X, and Ryan says, I want X. And you look at the show and you go, without sharing any upside,

You can't get there guys. Okay, Tiofima, great example. You know, and he's got his numbers and Like Oscar said, voices in the ear of people that don't know the numbers and it's only a balance sheet. It's not rocket. You know, and as I'm sitting down here, I'm thinking you know what you get it You understand the numbers. You understand the economic of what a fight can generate of what what the actual real numbers are but you have somebody who disrupts you disrupts the business and maybe it's a one-off maybe it's they're here for a short period of time we're in this for the long run I'm in this for I want to be like Bob and retire well not like Bob but his age I was thinking yeah I want to be as old as he is and still promoting but obviously doing the right thing and the right thing is right here I think that

We know the numbers, we understand the economic, so it's easier to do business. But when somebody comes in and disrupts the market and the fighters see that, and then fighters get the whispers in the ears, then it's difficult for promoters like us to really nail down a fight that we want to make because the numbers are... You must have experienced that in your career. I mean, you know, you were in all the biggest fights. You would have gone in, looked at a fight and gone, my number for that fight is X. Do you what I mean? And sometimes the piece of paper that was presented to you shows that actually is the wrong number.

But still your number, you're entitled to it. I mean, you know, and that's, you have to almost like a fighter, a fighter's going to give you their number. Sometimes a fighter will say to me, I don't care what that says. This is my number. It's like, well, you have to care what that. That, that, you know, but the fire is the fire. And I'm sure you had occasions where your promoter said, this is the purse. And someone said to you, no, actually, I think, you know, this is a tough fight.

You should be getting this. Of course. And I'm sure you've got it. How long? I don't know you talk about. Eddie and Bob, Oscar and Bob got along all the time. Never had any of it. Oh, great.

What's a good effort? No issue. I want to ask you, though, about Saudi Arabia because they do represent the disruption. There's no question it's been a net positive because big fights are being made. What we had with the Day of Reckoning in December, A.J. and Ganu. Beville, Better Beav, down the line. Big fights are getting done because of investment from Saudi Arabia. You've been doing business there for a little while now.

How do you balance that and work that into a yearly schedule? Okay, so the first thing is I hate the, you're taking boxing away from the UK and from America. There's this thing, it's called the world, right? And Saudi Arabia sits in it. Our plan, along with the zone, is global expansion. So if there is money coming into the sport from a new region, we need to embrace that. If that money is enabling us to see the fights that keep boxing great, even better. But we must still focus on other markets, and particularly our domestic markets.

Although we're making a move in America, our domestic market is really the UK. Oscars is America. whatever fights go to Saudi Arabia, great, but we must maintain a strong schedule and a strong presence in our domestic markets. And that's a focus for us moving forward. And another problem, which we talked about with the fighters is,

that number that the fighter might want can be achievable in Saudi Arabia. So sometimes the fighter will wait or they'll be told there's an opportunity there or they might get. The reality is not many will because it's only going to be, you know, five, six shows a year, whatever it's going to be.

But fights like Bivolbetibir, that can get made instantly. I don't think that fight would have got made without Saudi Arabia. Furiy Usyk wouldn't have got made without Saudi Arabia. So we have to embrace it because we can't deny the fighters the opportunity. And seeing the growth there firsthand is quite amazing, to be honest with, as a country. And you're dealing with a guy in his excellency who is just the biggest fight fan you've seen. He knows our stable from British champions to unified world champions. And the vision that they have, when you sit down and you go for a fight card,

you talk about being excited to go to a show. I mean, I've never seen anything like it. But we must focus our mind. This is not a, oh, let's all go and set up an office in Riyadh and just emigrate the business. This is embrace the investment and the opportunity for boxing, but maintain the strength in our core markets, particularly our domestic territories. Yeah, I totally agree. I think your excellency has disrupted the market, but has been doing a phenomenal job in making the big fights happen. I strongly feel we haven't done business with them just yet. But it's not an issue, but what I have a concern of is I'm in the business to create a star, right? The way I've handled Canelo, the way I've, handled Ryan the way I promoted Mayweather's 15 fights and Pachiao and you the

list goes on and on and on what I'm seeing is okay how can I create a star so it starts in America it start because or in Las Vegas because in Las Vegas and and and a good friend of of yours Bob Aram once told me once you have once you start the fire in Vegas then the wildfire just spreads around the world And I believe that. I strongly believe that. So if we can find a way where your excellency or Riyadh can time the event perfectly where it can be shown here on a Saturday night, we can somehow do that. We're okay because it is prime time in the UK. That's where it's working. And I think he's right, you know, that one of the issues with Fury and Garnu is it came in at 3 p.m. East Side. in time. That's not a time zone. It's not a time zone that's going to generate a significant part of the year. I would have loved to know the numbers what would what they did here in America.

I'm pretty sure that they were not that good. But if it was at the peak moment, the peak time in the US, 8 p.m. Pacific, it would have done massive crazy numbers promoting it. See, my issue is that yes, Let's spend more marketing dollars in the U.S. for those overseas fights, and I think America will embrace it. There's a formula, there's a system, there's a timing that's worked for us. And I think that, yes, boxing is global, and your excellency is doing an amazing, phenomenal job. It's just the timing that we have to get right. Before I finish, sanctioning bodies. You were at a campfire with Maricio Suleiman recently and some of the promoters out there.

Oscar, you've been dealing with sanctioning bodies going all the way back to your days as a fighter. When I talk to casual boxing fans, one of the most confusing things they find is who's a champion, what does this title mean, what's a secondary? There's just so much jumbled stuff out there when it comes to sanctioning bodies. Where do you guys stand on what their roles should be? and quite frankly, should they be phased out by the influential people in the sport? Look, I mean, my opinion about the sanctioning bodies, yes, I've been dealing with them forever as a fighter and as a promoter.

Fighters funded them for you. Of course, yeah, right, exactly. But fighters, fighters love being champions. Fighters love being champions. I loved holding my belt when I won a world title, but I didn't love paying the sanctioning fee. the WBC, WBO, I BF, and WBA. Yes, they've done a great job in making champions, in crowning a champion, okay,

with the hard work that the fighter does and the promoter and the managers, everybody involved. But a lot of times when you have four belts, the consumer, the public, gets confused. they're not interested in who's fighting who because the belt is involved. We have to again find a way, a happy medium somewhere to make sure that the fight fan is not discouraged by these organizations because every single day their rules are changing every single time

and it's very, very confusing. Look, I stick and I stand by the ring belt. That's it. Yes, I own it and I'm going to say it, but I do not get involved whatsoever. There's a board of writers who are professional, who know what they're doing, who rank the fighters, and in order to win the championship belt, you do it in the ring, and in order to lose the championship belt, it happens in the ring. And guess what? There's no sanctioning fees, no whatsoever.

So if you take a look at those ratings, there's no confusion whatsoever. Like Eddie, you've dealt with Bam and Sonny, you dealt with the ring magazine bell for a minute there. Yeah, but I think the problem is, is you have to have rules in every organization, but you also have to have the ability to act with common sense. And the problem is we can talk about a governing body, but depending on the situation, we can love them or hate them. So when you've got a champion in a governing body, and you've got a mandatory that, quite frankly, means absolutely nothing to the broad,

cast to the fans or the sport and you're getting told you have to fight him, that's a moment where you go, I can't stand these governing bodies. Now if you've got that mandatory contender, you're saying, come on, you have to apply your rules. So there just has to be a common sense. I mean, one of the, you know, we talk about tank against Ryan. Don't forget, there was no belt on the line. That was actually the first time that a pay-per-view of that size hasn't been an undisputed championship or a unified world championship. So I think that every first. fighter, you know, we have to have that conversation. Every fight, you know, whether it's Anthony Joshua or Canello when he worked with him or vice versa and, you know, oh, just to let you know, here's the invoice, which comes very quickly from the governing body, normally on a Thursday before a fight, this is what you're paying. You know, and if there's no cap, which a couple of governing bodies don't have, and it's 3%, and it's 3% of 50 million dollars, you know, you're paying $1.5 million times four in an undisputed fight.

You're paying $6 million. And there will come Oscar's so right about fighters loving a belt. We've always talked about oh do you move away from the governing body? You would have to go to your stable

to the fighter saying, are you okay with never fighting for the WBC, WBO? They'll be like, oh no, it's every fighter's dream. But when they get to a level, you know, I mean,

but some of them even, like Canello, a good example where he wants the belts on the line. Like he could easily fight with no belts on the line. but he does want the team character the legacy the undisputed

and like Oscar did it as well as a fighter so I think is it the money is it the rules is it just like you know you've got situations like Jaya Pata the other day

that just don't make sense but it is also a difficult job for the governing bodies don't forget they've got me phoning them all the time Oscar phoneing all the time Bob PBC you move this fighter down

why isn't he mandatory why are you calling this why are you doing that so you know but I also So although it's confusing to the fight fan, I still think the glory of a world championship belt, I mean it's not that confusing, but I echo, I don't own the ring magazine belt, but I do echo the beauty and the power of it. And I'll tell you saying now, to a fighter, the ring magazine belt is everything. It's the, it's the one that tells you, it's the history.

It's the way. You're the one. You're the one. In the division. That's it. Like that, and the fighters, you know. The rules haven't changed and more than the. hundred years like literally the rule is the rule I mean I believe you had a you had a situation with BAM I don't know too much of it because I don't get involved yeah

they followed but they follow the rule there's no you can't no what nobody can come to me and say well here's a hundred million dollars can you change the rule I cannot change the rules it would be impossible I could do that for you I mean yeah I mean it helps that I have a hundred million but I'm okay too but You're right. I'm not. You cannot change the rules, right? It's, it's, it's, it's, I do think there is integrity.

But there is integrity on the ring magazine and I need that integrity to stay in place. Yeah, I agree with that. I do think sometimes though the common sense rule. I mean, that was a very unique situation with Bam and Sunny. But I didn't, you know, I said to the ring committee, I don't mind being told no. I can, I can disagree with you, but I respect it. Sure. Like, they didn't fold over.

And, you know, some might say, well, it's only a magazine. What does it matter? Sure. They still stood up to us and said, sorry, guys. We had someone on the panel didn't agree. No. And everyone went, what? That's no, it's fine.

We're big boys. That's okay. There's still some integrity on boxing. Yeah, yeah, which I love. Well, Eddie, Oscar, good to see you guys in the same room together. Hopefully the first time of many in 2020. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I love it. Thanks, buddy. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Lance Pugmire. and Oscar Delahoya for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast, and I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite.

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