The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Should Canelo Avoid Bivol?

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

Joining Mannix this week is Kevin Iole, senior boxing writer with Yahoo Sports. Mannix and Iole discuss Floyd Mayweather's next exhibition, Dmitry Bivol's win, if Canelo Alvarez should pursue a rematch with Bivol and more; later, Seniesa Estrada on her journey in women's boxing, her split with Golden Boy, signing with Top Rank and her end of career dream fight. #Volume #Herd #ColinCowherdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Watch this. Ruis is the heavyweight champion. Hosted by S.I's Chris Manix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. All right, Kevin Ioli is here.

Senior Combat Sports writer, boxing writer over at Yahoo Sports. He is joining me from Las Vegas, but I'm sure Kevin is. going to be boarding a flight for Dubai soon to check out the Floyd Mayweather Dejy Showdown no doubt out in the United Arab Emirates I'll give this to Floyd Kevin he was masterful as a businessman during his active years and he is masterful as a businessman during his retired years he keeps taking on these no-hopers making seven figures I you know who knows what to believe and how much he's making seven figures and just like getting workouts in and seeing

the world. It's the greatest retirement story that's ever been written, I think, or at least in boxing. There's a lot of people that said, oh, when Floyd retires, he's going to be broke and he's not going to have any money. And I'll tell you what, you've got to give the man credit. I mean, you know, he's fine. I don't like these fights, of course, but you got to give him credit. He's found a way to make an income, keep his name in the news. And I think that that's going to help him with other things, you know, endorsements and things down the road, business opportunities, because he's just out there so much. And, you know, I mean, this guy that he's fighting lost to Jake Paul. I mean, it's not like he's...

Actually, if you include exhibitions, I think he's one in three as a boxer. He's the brother of KSI is what he's best known as at this point. And look, if there's a market for it, it's going to be streamed on. Is KSI known? I mean, KSai's known in the UK, for sure. Okay, okay. He's got an audience there. He's got a huge social media followers.

I always think a KSI is a radio station, you know, but... Probably. That's just as old I am. Yeah, yeah, you're right. KSI, yeah. No, but I mean, it's going to be on his own pay-per-view. He's going to make a lot of money. I'm sure some people will watch it.

I'm actually more intrigued to see Tommy Fury on the undercar, just to see kind of, you know, as he has a potential opponent for Jake Paul down the line. And does he slap Jake Paul as he said he was going to do? Jake wants him to. By the way, those two guys, like, they know what they're doing. Like, if Tommy Fury slaps Jake Paul, it's not going to be, like, looking to hurt him.

It's going to be looking to build up buzz for a future father. Well, what he's going to do is he's going to do is he's going to turn around a look are the camera's pointing at me or everybody looking and once he sees that they are then he will slap well there was a scene i don't know if you remember this in cleveland where they had kind of interaction in the hallway after jake's fight and one member i think it was of tommy's team kind of got serious in the middle of it and tommy and jake we look at him like what are you doing no no no no no we need the camera we need this moment for social media to build up our our fight they're masters at that and i think that'll be uh behind it but look good to spin it back to

Floyd, good for him. He has no interest in taking a real fight. He has no interest. And why should he? Nor should he. If you're making seven figures to travel the world and beat up on these, you know, first it was a couple of guys over in Japan. Now it's a social media influencer like Dejie. He says it's going to be back in February in the UK. He can do this three times a year and clear more than virtually everybody in boxing at this point. No, I mean, it's masterful. And, you know, it's amazingly changed because I was around, you know, I covered in person 43 or three of Floyd's 50 fights. And I was around when he was not a draw. And we used to write stories. Floyd Mayweather cannot sell tickets. And that was the truth back in the day. And the change that he made,

you know, he's a genius now. I mean, and he's figured out of how to make money and that character still works now. And there's still people that are into him. And, you know, I've had people ask me, hey, do you think he'll give Logan Paul a rematch? Like, who cares? Who cares? I wonder now that I think of it, you're right, he wasn't a draw early on. He had to go to Jersey to fight Gotti to get Gotti's audience to follow him. And I'll tell you this, just a real quick story. I was the first person to talk to him when he changed to the Money May character, and it was in the buffet at Caesar's Atlantic City.

And we're sitting next to the buffet, and the workers were getting ready to open it up, and there's all the ice that they put in the salad bar. And he's eating the ice as we're sitting there. And I had a great relationship with him. I had covered him actually in the amateurs at the Olympics. And so, you know, we had a good working relationship, and he had been pretty boy Floyd, always easygoing. All of a sudden, when I first asked him a question,

he started, you know, with the Money May stuff and like really going off. And I'm like, what in the hell is going on here? And Lee Samuels from top rank, the Hall of Fame publicist, was going to have a conniction. I mean, he was sitting off to the side, and he didn't know what Floyd was doing. And then once he finishes the interview, and we talk for about a half an hour,

and he's just ripping Goddy up and down, he looks at me, and he taps me on the left. like any winks. Look, it's definitely a character that he purposefully became. And good for him. He did. I've often wondered, like, could, yeah, not to say Devin Haney is Floyd, but at some point in the next couple of years, if Devin Haney remains unbeaten and isn't as popular as he'd like to be, because he's kind of similar in the sense. He doesn't really draw anywhere, doesn't have a home base. You know, maybe Northern California he can get there. Maybe Vegas he can get there. But I wonder if he makes a similar heel turn in future years where it's like, fine, beat me. All right, if you want,

you know, you can say I'm boring, but you can't beat me. I wonder. He's not as talented as Floyd because he's very good. He's very good. He's more hitable, I think, at this stage than Floyd was. But I can see Devin Haney making a turn like that and making a boatload of money off it down the line. I think the problem for Devin is going to be he loses to Shakur. That's what I think. You know, I'm a big Shakur fan and I think as a fighter, I think Shakur is better than he is. Devin is awesome, you know, and that's why I like that lightweight division. There's so many good fighters, but to your point, Chris, I think he could do that, right? Because Devin is a smart kid, right? And look at he's been doing, you know, traveling all these fights. He's, you know, he was

at the Dezone fight. He goes on the broadcast. He talks. He was, you know, at the Loma fight just recently gone on the broadcast. He went in the ring afterwards. And then he released, I don't know if you noticed that he released all those pictures. People were saying how fat he was after Loma. He got in the ring. And he released pictures of him eating ice cream and pizza and all these different things. which was clever on his part, but I think he needs more than that. And if he was a knockout artist, I would say he's okay, but he's not. You know, he doesn't have that kind of pop to really, and if he moves up, which I think everybody agrees, he's got maximum to, maybe one more fight at lightweight and he's going

up. I think his pop is going to be even less. So as a result, I think he needs to do something like Floyd did. Yeah, I don't think a Shakur fight happens anytime soon. I think it's one more fight at lightweight because you saw him before the Lomachenko fight. like he was emaciated getting down to 135 like do it for loma because that's a career-defining fight but after that go up to 140 where you can be physically stronger and maybe your power gets a little bit better at a higher-weight class i don't know but he's i think he's got a big future and i'm curious to

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I'll be at the Top Rank Show on Saturday, headlined by the latest WBO Middleweight Champion who will never fight anybody. Jana Beck, and I'm not going to try to pronounce it the last name, so I've tried it seven times, and I've butchered it. Even Top Rank's not even trying. Like they're putting in their hashtags as Janabek as his hashtag. He is defending his title this weekend,

headlining his show at the Palms. that's going to be on ESPN Plus. In 2018, Demetrius Andrade won the WBO version of the middleweight title. He spent three plus years not getting a significant fight. I'm getting a similar feeling here with Janubeck. A hard-hitting south-faw. In his defense, he's only fought a 12 pro fight.

Correct. But I'm saying, like, as the WBO middleweight title holder, I don't think anybody's going to fight him. He's a hard-hitting south paw. Like if Demetrius Andrade, who was a, you know, brash-talking American without a lot of power, couldn't get someone at the top of the middleweight division to face him in unification fights. I have a hard time seeing Jenna Beck getting those types of fights.

But I think there's a difference between Andrade and Janibek and adds to what you said, the punching power. You know, and Andrade was a guy that fought backwards, right? He's, you know, awkward to fight and he just throws everything off. You know, Jenna Beck's not like that. I mean, you know, he's a good boxer. But we'll see how good of a boxer he is, right? You know, we know he can punch. You know, some people say he's the hardest puncher in the division already.

I want to say, let's see who we fight. I'm beating, what was it? Rob Brandt and Hassan and Dom and guys like that. Danny Dayton, who did he beat in the last fight? Durgan. I mean, like, yeah, you're right. He's got to face elite competition. But I don't think he gets it.

Like, I don't think anybody's going to line up to fight him. Like, who coming up from 154 is going to be like, that's the title I want? I'm going to fight Janet back. And he's calling out Charlo, like, you know, Charlo has not fought anybody since he won the, you know, a middleweight title. You're not going to see him do that. Charlo, as we're recording this, the WBC's having their convention, they're going to do anything. about Jamal Charlo at this point. He's been off for over a year, like holding that belt hostage at this point. I don't understand how that works and how there are reporters actually in

Acapulco who do not call them on these kind of things and write about it. Instead of just saying, here's what they ordered, call them on these kind of things. You know, and that, I try to write that kind of stuff and call out and I get, you know, ripped for being negative. I wrote a story last week and said boxing is great, the sport of boxing is great, but the business of boxing sucks. And all these, you know, boxing writers, you know, oh, he's negative, he's this, he's that. And they're pointing to fights between two guys that, you know, you and I heard of, but the average public has no idea as they are as an example of something good in boxing. And, you know, I think if you want to do something good for boxing, go to that WBC convention in Alcapulco and call them on it

and say, what are you going to do about this and force him to fight? But if they have no public pressure from the media, then they're going to do, you know, they're going to just let these kind of things happen. It's just ridiculous. I mean, look, the other example of it is, and it's small potatoes, I guess, but ranking Keith Thurman ahead of Virgil Ortiz of the WBC rank. How do you explain that? Keith Thurman has had, what, one win since the Pachiaulte fight? Like, Virgil Ortiz has been active. He's been knocking guys out. He's been increasing his level of competition every single time. How do you have Keith Thurman ahead of Ortiz, if only because you want to have presented as a potential mandatory for Errol Spence. That's laughable.

100%. That's all they're doing. Laffable what they're doing there. So to spin it back to Jana Becchio for a second. Like, I think he's exceptionally talented. Buddy McGirt and Agus Clemmas think he's the best fighter of this generation. Like they're talking a lot about Janubeck. I love him. I love Buddy, tremendous trainers. Buddy's awesome. I think a nice surge as a trainer in recent years.

Agus is a proven talent evaluator over the years. But I'm with you. I need to see him against better guys. I just don't know who that guy is. Like, Hymen Mungia has been named as his mandatory. There is a better chance of you getting in the ring with Janna Beck than Jaime Mungia doing it. I mean, what Golden Boy is getting away with with Jaime Mungia is unbelievable. The opponents that they are giving him. Put on Fernando Beltran too there a little bit.

It's on both of them with the Mungia stuff. But, you know, I got to know Fernando Beltron in the 90s when Fernando Beltron had, you know, Eric Morales and Arce and all those guys. And they fought everybody. And, of course, that's a lot to do with the fighter. But, I mean, you know, Jaime Mungia now, you know, he got turned on for the Golofkin fight. What was it? 18 and 18. Tom Lothler wanted to have him fight Golofkin in 18.

So that told me, hey, this guy had some, you know, intestinal fortitude that he's willing to take on Golofkin at such a young age at a prime Golofkin at that point. So I don't think it's him. I think it's the people around him saying we don't believe in him. And we're going to lose our gravy train if we, uh, put him in with somebody who can actually fight. And so Oscar and Fernando and whoever else is on the management team, Eric Gomez, all these people, they just, they find soft touch after soft touch after soft touch. And we're really not getting to see what this guy has. The amazing thing to me is that if he fought Jamal Charler right now, I'd make him a slight favorite. If he fought

Gennady Golofkin right now, I'd make him a slight favorite. I think he's improved that much over the last couple of years. I've had the opportunity to call most of his recent fight. and I think his defense is getting a little bit better, his offense is getting exponentially better. He throws six, seven, eight punch combinations every single time. He has a great chin like he's shown that. He rarely has anything coming back. So if you have in one round, the guy fires back at you,

you know, your defense and your offense can also be good because you're not worried as much, right? You know, you're in there against Charlo and you know he can hit. And, you know, whatever you think of Charlo, and I agree there's inherent problems with Charlo. you know, you know he can hit and he's quick and he's athletic. And so he's going to create, you know, issues. And, you know, Jaime's fighting these guys that he's a 20 to one favor.

You know, I mean, it's ridiculous. And, you know, the public deserves better. The television deserves better. And he deserves better. And I think he has some talent. Like the fact, you know, when he beat, I was going to say Obikar, who was it that he beat? Gabe Rosado. No, not Gabe Rosado, the Walterweight that he beat for a title.

the slick boxer. Yes, the one that Bicotto and I'm now blanking on all of this. Okay, we're both blanking. Yes. But, you know, he could fight. He was a good, you know, much smaller, but he moved up to 154 fought. And I thought at that point, hey, this kid has, you know, has got something in him. And then he wanted to fight Golofkin right after that.

But now, like. Saddam Ali. Saddam Ali. That's it. The fact that he's so acquiescent to what his management wants to do tells me, you know, that he's willing just to pick up paychecks and not really, you know, I loved what Dimitri Bivel said last week to you in the ring. It's not about money.

It's about legacy. And to me, when I heard that, I just, you know, I mean, I felt so good because that's what I've been dying to hear fighters say. And God bless you, Dmitri Bivel, for saying that. I believe them too. You know, I believe all things being equal, Dmitri Bivel would happily take an Archer better be a fight over Canello, even if the money was not as substantial.

So I think he's about that legacy. So let's talk about Bevel for a second. Coming off the win over, coming off the win in Abu Dhabi this weekend. I'm blank. Gilberto Ramirez, of course, coming up the win over, Zerto. Second straight big win of the year for Dmitri Bevel. First of all, what did you think about his performance last weekend? I thought he looked good.

What did I have? A 10 to 2, I believe I had. I had it right around there, maybe 9-3. And I just thought Zerto did not fight, right? I mean, I was disappointed in Zerto. Like, and Zirno's another guy. He had been matched easily almost his whole career. Like his hardest fights were probably Jesse Hart.

Jesse Hart's a tough guy, but he's not an elite boxer. And that was Zerdo's toughest fight. So now you get up to a guy, a world-class guy, you know, arguably a top 10 pound-for-pound guy, and he was in over his head. And I think he realized that. And, you know, Bivel was quicker. Bivel was a better boxer. And I think Bivel was actually the bigger puncher of the two.

Bivel wasn't sitting down on his punches because he didn't need to take the risk. But I think of Zerto was firing him back at him. But I was really impressed with Bivel. And he shows movement in the ring. He has different combinations. And he's smart. You know, he makes adjustments on the fly. I was really impressed.

I'll tell you what, I love Arthur Bedev. But that is a tough fight for Better Biav. I mean, Bette Biav hits you and you're in trouble. But good luck hitting Dmitri Bivel with a good one too. Bevel has tremendous footwork. Tremendous defense and he does punch hard like he's not the knockout artist we thought he was gonna be when he was coming up the ranks on HBO Knocking out everybody Sullivan Barrera was on that hit list early on but he's not a light puncher by any stretch if he was Gilberto Ramirez would have come forward and he didn't he was fighting most of that fight going backwards and he thought that little crouch because I think you know he wanted to make himself a more difficult target because he felt what was coming at him

Yeah, look, one of the big questions we had coming in was what was Gilberto Ramirez really made of. He was 5 and 0 at light heavyweight, but he had faced C-level competition at best. You'd probably say Yonetsky Gonzalez might have been the best fighter he had faced. And I don't blame Ramirez for that because two of those fights were, mandator, were eliminators. So he's got to put himself in position to force the fight against Beable because if he hadn't, Beaville would have fought Boatzi on that weekend and he wouldn't have been in that position. But in that fight, we learned that maybe Zerto, you know, certainly not the power punch we thought he was at 175. All that being said, I don't blame, like people are piling on Zerdo a little bit.

The guy fought the best guy. Like he fought a top 10 pound for pound guy. We want him to avoid these fights? Like, do we want him to be like Mungia in those situations? No, I'm with you. Like I criticized him to a certain degree. I said he was exposed. But I wasn't criticizing him for, especially at light heavyweight.

what he had done, but I was saying I was criticizing his management team, right? His old management team and his new management team. Because, you know, you got to, like, I wish in boxing they would learn, and I think there's a lot of smart people out there, but they still worry about losses. Like, I don't think the TV networks care as much about losses as these managers and some fans seem to think they do. You know what, if you show up and you give me a good fight, people are going to want to see you and the networks are going to want to put you on.

And I think that they just were so low risk with Zerto that the first really good fighter he fought. No question, Bivel's an A fighter. You know, and when he got in the ring with an A fighter, he was ill-equipped to deal with it. And I think Zerto is talented enough that had he seen that prior, you know, maybe you're not going to see a Dimitri Bivel prior, but, you know, some better, you know, there was some good guys at 68 when he was there. He could have fought some of those guys. He would have been more equipped for this, and I think would have been, had a better chance. winning. I don't think he would ever won that fight, but he would have had a chance. And even if you lose in boxing, if you get one low-level win, you're all the way back.

And it's like, all right, now we want to see him back. Because if Zerto went out and knocked somebody out in his next fight, be like, well, is he going to fight a cruiser way, he's going to fight for a title there? I mean, losses, we could go all day long on that. Don't mean anything. All right. The question now for Dimitri Beville going forward is what's next. It certainly sounds like Archer-Betterb is headed forward that fight against Anthony Yard in the first quarter. January, January, February, something like that.

It's the WBO mandatory. He's got to do it to keep his belt. It's already signed sealed and delivered, according to people I've talked to with Top Rank. But if there's an option for Bevel in, like, May or June of next year, what's the bigger fight for him in your mind? Is it that unification fight with Archer Berbeyev, or is it a rematch with Canelo, a generational pound-for-pound talent, which could conceivably take place at 168 pounds, which would put Bebel in position to fight for the undisputed championship there. He commented to you in the ring in Abu Dhabi, and I think he showed you, you know, I mean, he said, I'm a light heavyweight, and, you know, that's a tough cut. You know, he's, he's an amazing athlete.

He's lean and at 175, now you're going to ask him to take seven pounds off against the world-class fighter like Canello. You know, that is a really, really difficult thing to do. I think if his team and he, you know, if they get a new, and they feel like they can make it, that fight is both a money fight and a legacy fight. So it gives you both because if you beat Canello, I think you put yourself in the Hall of Fame, given what he's already done. That is, you know, he may be in now as it is anyways, but I think if you beat Canello a second time,

you are a Hall of Famer. You've done that. You're stamping yourself as one of the greatest fighters in the world. There's no doubt he would be in the top five pound for pound at that point. You know, some people have him in the top 10 now, some people have them just outside the top 10 he's in if he does that but if you know on the side of uh fighting better be of you know you're going to go up against maybe like the mike uh tyson of light heavyweights yeah a guy what is he is he 17 and no was 17 or no you know just i mean he just destroyed joe smith a pretty good solid fighter

he's got a great shin went 12 rounds of beevil and he destroys him it wasn't even so if you go in there and you win the undisputed light heavyweight title by beating that guy i think again you know you're going to look, hey, when you cop it on top of his win over Canello and that, again, you know, this guy saying, hey, this is a Hall of Fame fighter. So he has good choices to make. You know, obviously the Canello fight is going to be the richer fight. I wonder if they can do this. If they could have Canello, excuse me, Bivel and Betterby have come back in maybe May

and fight like after Canelo does and then them fight in September on the rematch and do it that way. I don't know who you would put Canello within the interim if you did that. But I think that might be something for Bivel's team that now he's the undisputed light heavyweight champion going up against the undisputed. And they can pull a Sugar Ray Leonard or Donnie LaLan thing. We're weighing in at 168 and you're fighting for undisputed at both classes. That's a good point. You could do both. Sugar Ray certainly did it.

I would, BenerPF doesn't just beat guys. He ends careers. Right. At one point ended Alexander Vostick's career. Unclear if we see Joe Smith ever again back in the ring. If I'm Beavol, and I can in a healthy way get down to 168, I would push for that fight. Because not only is there a lot of money, you would be the favorite going in. You would have a chance to win all the belts at 168 and do what nobody has ever done,

which is win two undisputed champions on the men's side, respect Cloresa Shields. On the men side, win two undisputed championships and do it in two fights. Right. Like, that would be a really remarkable and historical accomplishment. It all comes down to his ability to cut weight. And look, the only reason I bring it up, and I brought it up to him in the ring, is because he suggested it before. Like, when he was not getting fights at 175, he was talking about being able to cut down to 168.

And that, to me, makes the Canello fight a little bit more interesting. If it's Canelo Beaville at 175, we've seen it. We've seen it. I don't think Canello wins that fight. As great as Canello is, I think that's a bridge too far for him to go up against a fighter like that at that weight class. At 168, you take a little bit out of Dimitri Beavle, maybe his speed, maybe his reflexes, maybe they go a little bit,

you give yourself a little bit more of a chance. That fight interests to me, Kevin. I would be more on board for Bevo Canello at 168 right now than I am for Bevel Better Beaville. The other part of it is you just can't count on Archer BetterBeh have to be healthy. Like you just, if you're banking on him to be able to fight less than 20 times. If you're banking on him to be able to fight in June or May or June, And I don't know if I thought it's a late January.

After, I mean, personally, I don't think Anthony Yarns could have. I talked to John Scully about him, though, and John Scully is confident that he could come back, one of his trainers. I don't believe the Yard fight's going to go very long. Anthony Yard, good for him for getting in this position, but he's better be as a steamroller, man. And I don't think Yard can put up the resistance to him. A lot of people, like I was talking to some people at top rank and criticizing the fight, right? After the Joe Smith fight, I was no, no, no with Anthony Yard. And I don't understand why.

boxing likes those kind of fights and why the organizations make these kind of mandatories because you know what it benefits them and then they're and then they're not going to get crap from people like you and me if they look and they say hey you know what let's let's set it up so that we can have this big fight you know whoever the big fight happens to be but in this case like a bival and him like set it up for that because now it's going to be a big money fight you know as opposed to an anthony yard fight which is you know not going to be a little bit less and and then theoretically a Canelo fight. I don't understand. In boxing likes to put these goofy little fights in there,

and I don't think you need it. And to me, that's something on the business side. I love what's going on in boxing today. I think there's so many. I've covered boxing for what, 40 years. I covered fights in the 70s. And I think that current talent now, the world championship level talent, and just below that on the way up, is as good as it's been like, you know, maybe in the late 80s. mid-80s you know there's been there's a lot of guys in a lot of divisions plus you see some of these kids coming up or five and oh six and oh i'm not 100 percent sold on ashton sylve yet but the kid that's uh fought on the jake paul undercar but i think he's a guy look at it going you know maybe he is something uh i'm not 100 percent there on him yet but he's a guy that attracted

my interest so why not take advantage of this and promote these great fighters and promote them in big fights because you know what i know ryan garcia wants to fight tank davis i know that devon He wants to fight Loma and Shakur Stevenson. You know, Teofimo Lopez wants to fight Josh Taylor. All these kids want to fight each other. Let them do it. Networks, promoters, politics, everything stands in the way. And it is absolutely keeping boxing from rising.

Boxing can easily rise. It just gets out of its own way. We've been having that conversation for many years now. To put a button on the B-Bowl topic, Canello's out there, just had hand surgery. Eddie Hearn says he'll be back. training in full by end of December, early January, theoretically healthy enough to fight in May. Should Canelo pursue the rematch with Dimitri Beavl? He was beaten pretty soundly in that last

fight. He's a dominant 168, but at 175, he can beat someone like Sergei Kovalev. Can he compete with Bevel? Can he compete with Better Beav? That might be just a weight too big at this point for Canello. Should he pursue the Bevo fight or should he look in the direction of, say, the winner of David Benavides versus Caleb Plant, which, across our fingers, we think is going to happen in the first quarter of 2003. You know, here's the problem. I pick Canello to beat Bivel, and I said it was a 50-50 fight, but I thought if it's a close fight in Las Vegas that Canello is going to win the decision. I thought so too. You know, right? So he almost did get like the Vegas push, because I had like 1711, I think. And I don't.

It wasn't 15-13. But, you know, when you look at that, when you see them in the ring fighting, Bivel's considerably bigger. And the reach, you know, Canello didn't have a way to really touch him the way he touches a lot of these guys that are his size. Because Canello is an accurate puncher. He's quick. He's got good footwork to put himself in position. He did those things against Bivel, but then Bivel had that little reach advantage on him,

pow, with a jab. And that jab would slow Cinello down for a second, and Bivel would throw a combination. So just are you bringing Bivel down to 68? Is that going to stop? that. If Bivel can make 68 healthy, I don't know how Canello turns that around. Now for Canello, you know, Canello's like a guy he likes to say, bleep you, I can do it, and he's going to prove himself to you. And so that's what we love about Canello, that he has that brash attitude, and that's what we want in a guy. And so from that standpoint, you say, hey, you know,

God bless you, you've done so much, go ahead and try. But I like your line of thinking because I think, you know what, you've proven that that size is too big of an issue against you. And if you beat him a second time, there's always going to be that lingering doubt. Well, Bivel came down in ways. And that's not, you know, that's not good for him. And Roy Jones proved that, right? When Roy Jones went down after he won the heavyweight title and he went back down to 175, you know, that was a massive mistake. You drop all that muscle off and you're not the same, same type of fighter that you were before. And who did he fight Glenn Johnson? I think he got knocked out twice. And that, you know, that became a big issue. So to my way of thinking, Chris, I think Canello might be better to look at somebody and, you know,

hey, he's fought plant. I know plant has a little bit of heat after that knockout of Dorel. But if Benavitas beats him, and I think, you know, that's the hope that PBC has. Because Benavitas is the fresh face that they can now set Benavitas out to fight them. And to me, that's a great fight for Canelo because Benavitas is a big kid, right? Bigger than Canello. And I think that's the fight. And then you can have Bivol go fight.

Better be a for some. And look, Canelo has not been ducking Benavitas. We need to be careful of that. No, no. The idea like these trolls. out there. He is a, you are a moron if you think that Canelo was ducking Benavides. If David Benavides had not screwed up the WBC title situation, he would have fought Canello already. Canelo was chasing those belts. He went out for the guys with the belts. Then he fought a legacy

fight against Gennati Golov, but he's not ducking Benavides. And Benavides, to his credit, has said, I need to earn that fight with Canello. He's been chasing it. And this plant fight fight after plant had just stopped Anthony Durel is that kind of stepping stone type of fight. I agree. It's not a stepping stone fight. It's a good fight. Yeah, but it would springboard him. I guess stepping stone is the wrong word. Springboard him into Canelo fight. I don't hate the idea of Canello waiting until September, fighting David Benavides, and if he wins

and if he comes out clean, there's nothing stopping Canelo from doing one of those Eddie Hearn specialties and fighting overseas somewhere against like a John Ryder type, which has been in the water supply. Did he try that first as long? Yeah, like you can do that. He can get his two fights a year in, make his money, and stay as active as he'd like to stay. I don't hate that idea. But Canello, as you alluded to, like he's a little bit crazy.

I'm sure it gnaws at him that he lost to Dimitri Beable. I'm sure it really, really bothers him. I just don't know, to your earlier point, I don't know that he's going to be able to turn the tide on a situation like that. All right, last thing I want to hit you with. You wrote a great piece over at Yao Sports Month, the 13 fights that you want to see in 2023. Some of them are realistic.

You've got Joshua, or sorry, Fury against Usso. maybe Fury against Joshua. We could see that. Others, especially in the lower weight classes, not so much. You've got Spence Crawford still doing their thing back and forth. I really love the idea of Inouye versus Stephen Fulton. That would be unbelievable.

That's a tremendous fight. If you're Stephen Fulton, what are you doing out there right now? I mean, you just kind of, I mean, the Aquedalia fight, it was never going to come together anyway. Now Aquedalia is hurt. Like, you've got to strike while the iron's hot. If Inouye moves up, you've got to push hard for that type of fight. He's got the unification fight in December.

and then I think they're ready to go. Oh, yeah. In a way, I mean, yeah, he's gone. I'm up, those belts are fracture, and then we'll see what happened. But that, that to me, when I looked at your list, you know, I love Ryan versus Tank. And I actually think we're getting closer to making a deal on that fight. But when I saw Inouye versus Fulton, man, give me that. Inouye style of comfort, big power, Fulton more of a slicker boxer.

I love that style matchup. I tried to make put fights, and I said, okay, what fights do I want to see? And there was a bunch of other ones I wanted, but like Andy Ruiz and Wilder was in the work, so I didn't put that on there. I called for that fight before. Now, I think it's too late, right? And Andy Ruiz's star continues to drop.

You know, I, if he would have fought Wilder instead of Robert Hellenius and forget about Louis. I mean, BBC kept trying to sell the ghost of Luis Ortiz as some threat. And, you know, who did Luis Ortiz ever beat in his professional career? And yes, he has power. And, you know, yes, he knocked down, you know, Deonté Wilder. but you know what? He got beaten by him and he's, what can...

Did he knock down Wilder? He hurt Wilder. He knocked him down, didn't he? No, I think he hurt him in that first fight. The Brooklyn fight? Okay. So, not in the second fight for sure. But, you know, Wilder dominated the second fight.

But either way, you know, they had them in some difficulty he was ahead. But who is Ortiz ever beaten? So to me, the fight, and if Wilder had decided to take a long, even longer off, I would have understood. But Wilder coming off that Fury fight, to me, Andy Ruiz was the fight to make. because, you know, Wilder, like you said about Canello crazy, Wouter wants to be in there, and God bless him for the attitude he has. He's one of the guys that wants to make the big fights,

and he's looking to fight, you know, the big guys. If you wanted to get one of those fights again, Andy Ruiz was the fight to make, in my opinion. You know, Heleneas just didn't have the name power, but I don't know what, you know, the BBC, I guess, was trying to milk every single last thing they could get out of Ortiz. And what do they do? They did a dud of a pay-per-view,

and it actually, Andy didn't look great in that fight, right? I mean, if Andy blows him on and puts him down and puts his arms up in the air while Ortiz is rolling around on the canvas, that's one thing. He was very tentative in that fight. Knocked Ortiz down a few times, but I don't know if the punch resistance is there for Andy Ruiz like it used to be.

I mean, he took that shot from Anthony-Dazzo, Joshua, got up, came back, knocked him up, but you look at the ariola fight. Guante Waters, a totally different story. But Ariola knocked him down. I think he was a little bit nervous about Ortiz in that fight and his power. Wilder, I mean, Ruiz could catch Wilder. I mean, like, he's got good handspice still. That's what makes the fight interesting. That's what makes like. But I tried to

look at other fights, Chris, and say, so I brought Joe Joyce up. Yeah. Because think about Joe Joyce. To me, he reminds me of a poor man's George Foreman, big, strong, relentless, kind of slow, but he moves forward and he can take a shot. And you would see George come out of those fights, you know, 93, 94, 95. He's wearing the sunglasses. His face got beat up, but somebody's, you know, babbling incoherently in the corner because he knocked that, you know, the hell out. of them and I think that you know that sort of Joe in a lower level reminds me that so you're going to tell me Deontay water versus Joe Joyce would not be an unbelievable fight to watch you know just from a fans perspective it wouldn't be a fun fight you know somebody's going to get knocked

out you know it's going to be rock and sock and robots and so that's kind of what I try to do is I went down that list and you know I had to hit some of the obvious ones like spenson crawford that were there but you know and I do want to see that fight because I think you know you're talking two two welterweights in their prime who are, you know, among the five best fighters in the world. Would you agree? Yeah, absolutely. And when you have that, that uplifts boxing when those kind of guys fight. And you can also showcase other elite talent on those undercards, right?

I remember many years ago, and I've said this on many interviews, Chris, but when De La Jollauea Mayweather got made, I called Richard Schaefer. He was a golden boy at the time. And I said, Richard, you should put Rafael Marquez and Israel Vasquez on that undercard. And he's always going to cost a million dollars to make. that fight. What did that fight make? I think it made $280 million that night. That $1 million investment would have not helped them that night, but it would

help boxing's future. People who went away from boxing and said, holy shit, are these guys, is this what boxing is now? And I think that's what they miss on when they don't put those kind of fights on pay-per-view. I agree. I agree. And if you're going to do pay-per-views, stack them as best you can. I know the money isn't there like it used to be, but you've got to do better than what most of these paper-fews, views are, which is a pretty decent

headlining fight and then a lot of one-sided fights on the undercard. It's problematic. Kevin Ioli, you are off to New York to cover UFC this weekend, so we'll be on separate coast, even though I live on the East Coast, I'm on the West Coast, you'll be in my backyard in New York. And it's going to switch back, right? Yeah. Appreciate your time, Kevin. Thank you, Chris.

Appreciate it. And when we come back, my conversation with Sanisa Estrada. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast, Superhuman, documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits. the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars. so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes.

Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith Rule of Two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. While the NBA season is underway, and it's the perfect time to download FanDuel, America's number one sports book because right now new customers get a no sweat first bet up to $1,000. Plus, Fandul is the only sports book that's giving all customers three months of NBA league pass when they make a $5 bet. You guys know from listening to me, following me, I am an NBA guy and gambling has become a big part of the NBA landscape.

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and use promo code boxing to get your no sweat first bet up to $1,000. Make every moment more this season with Vandul, official sports book partner of the NBA. All right, Sanisa Estrada is a two-division world champion on Saturday. She will end an 11-month layoff when she returns to defend her 105-pound title. That's a fight you can watch over on ESPN Plus on Saturday. It is live out here in Las Vegas.

She is also the proud protege of a friend of the podcast. Sergio Amora, one of the, from the Sergio Amora fighting tree. Is that accurate to say? That is accurate, unfortunately. It is accurate. He co-hosts with you, right? He likes to think so. Oh, so he's not officially a co-hosts.

No, I just saw, before we sat down to record, that he's just tweeted out that he's not appearing again on this podcast until I admit that he's my highest rated guest. I will not be admitting that today, since that is inaccurate. and I'd like to be accurate here on the show, but Sergio is a frequent. We joke, though, but you know, you were an avid follower of Sergio. You effectively are a stablemate of Sergio since you are trained by Dean Capos, who of course was in Sergio's corner for many years during his career.

So you are, in a way, a protege. Not a protege, I guess is the wrong word, but I guess a disciple of Sergio. Yes, believe it or not, I was a fan of Sergio growing up. I was probably one of his 10 fans growing up. I'm just kidding. No, Sergio had a great style, great footwork and defense. And I grew up, we grew up, I grew up training in the same gym as him. I was just training. My dad was training me at the time. And Dean was training Sergio. They were getting ready to go through the Olympic trials. And then after that, he got onto the contender TV show and went through that, won it. And I started training with Dean when I was 16. And it was because I was, I was. loved Sergio style. What was it about that style that you loved? Just it was different.

His footwork and defense was great. Of course, Sergio doesn't have power and that was, sorry, Sergio, but everybody knows that. He wouldn't admit that to me. He wasn't a power puncher.

But that's why Dean had to create all these different, all these different moves and training methods and techniques for him to be able to, be able to win fights against fighters who were a lot stronger or even a lot more experience than him so he can get through these fights and his style worked our style i mean i fight that way too with my footwork and my defense and my movement except i actually i have the power so that makes it even easier for me for people that don't understand like what made his footwork special when you watched his footwork what did you see and what did you tried to to kind of emulate i mean foot placement is so important important in boxing that makes a huge difference as to i mean for example we

saw that last weekend with the Bevol and Zerudel fight. His foot placement was just perfect and that's what made his punches be so precise and accurate and made it easier for him to land all the punches that he wanted to. So when watching Sergio, I just recognized and noticed how his foot placement was always just so good. It put him in positions to where he was able to land punches from the side of opponents and land punches from all different angles. Like you, you didn't know where Sergio was going next. And that's the same thing with me and my style. Like, my opponents don't know what I'm going to do next because I'm always keeping them guessing.

But I always know what I'm going to do next. You switch a lot in the ring to it. Sergio didn't switch that much. Did he? He didn't switch as much, but, but yes, he was very good at throwing certain punches out of a South Paul stance because that's what Dean does teach us. That's, that's tricky, right? I mean, we've seen, there's my handful of fighters that really switch in boxing. Terrence Crawford does it at a pretty high level.

I'm blanking, but I'm sure there's a few others. Like that, that's not easy to kind of master because you've got to be really comfortable in both stances, right? You do. And I'm actually very comfortable. I'm more comfortable in a South ball stance than I am in an Orthodox stance. Like even Dean was like, man, like you can do certain things easier out of a South Paul stance. And when I started boxing, I would always stand left-handed. and my dad would always make me turn back to my orthodox stance.

But as time went on, he noticed that I was doing things so much better out of a South Paul stance, and it was kind of just working what I was doing. So he kind of just let me be and let me switch back and forth when I felt it was necessary. Everybody knows now women's boxing is experiencing an unbelievable surge. You've got women making seven-figure paydays, the biggest boxing, matches on men's or women's side are being fought by women. You know, you go back to Katie Taylor, Amanda Serrano a couple weekends ago. You had a great card over in the UK where both women's fights were impressive. I want to ask you about that, but when you first started in boxing,

back when you were eight, nine years old, what was women's boxing back then? What do you remember women's boxing being when you first picked up those gloves? Well, I started watching boxing with my dad when I was about six years old. And the first question I asked him was, dad, do girls box? Because we didn't watch any women on TV. It was just men. So I didn't think that women's boxing even existed. So growing up, I getting into boxing, I didn't realize how, how dead women's boxing was. In LA, I was one of maybe three girls who were in going into every gym in East L.A. for sparring and in L.A.

Because it was still what? Like, Christy Martin, Lail Ali, at the end, like the end of that. Lucia Riker kind of, there wasn't, in professional,

the professional level, it was more, I don't say gimmicky, but it was few and far between we saw women's fights. Yeah, it wasn't enough to like keep. No depth whatsoever.

No depth. Yeah, exactly. So it was pretty difficult coming, growing up in L.A. being one of the very few girls walking into a boxing gym and all my sparring partners were boys. It was hard to even find another girl to spar with. So to see how far it's come now is just incredible.

Like I've always known it would get to the point where it is now. I just didn't know when. That's the one thing about women's boxing. Getting into women's boxing that early was just so unpredictable. And wanting to turn pro, I had no idea how dead women's boxing still was at the time. time. And my professional career took, was a very slow start because I was so inactive. Big promoters weren't signing women. Women weren't fighting on TV. But now the breakthrough has been incredible. And it's just been in the past couple of years. This year actually is like, like you said,

the best year that women's boxing has had ever. When did you decide that this would be a career path? Like when does it go from being something you want to do because you sit in front of a TV and watch and ask your dad are to women box to this is something i want to do for most of my life i knew that when i was seven before i started boxing i started boxing at eight years old but when i was seven i was sitting in front of the tv watching a boxing fight i don't i don't even remember which fight specifically but i thought to myself this is what i want to do this is what i'm going to do for the rest of my life well not the rest of my life but you know and uh as a professional as a professional this is going to be my career. I'm going to be a world champion one day. I'm going to fight on TV one day.

And I'm going to be signed by one of the biggest promoters in boxing one day. I said that at seven years old when like my dad thought I was fucking crazy. He thought I like he he thought I was insane. Of course my mom did too for a very long time. But I just knew it. I knew it. And I knew women's boxing would be where it is right now. And your dad as he's been around he's around every one of your fights, works your corner along with Dean. Um, you still, he's told the story before, but he was initially skeptical of it, right? Like he threw you in with a boy your first time out. Yeah.

When I first asked him if I can box, he avoided taking me to a gym for about six months. I was constantly just bugging him. And I think it got to the point where he was just annoyed. So he was like, all right, fine. Like, I'll take her to a gym. And, um, I was training for about two weeks. And he still didn't want me boxing. So he asked my trainer at the time to put me in the.

ring to spar with a boy so you can beat me up. Make me cry. That way I would not want to go back to the gym ever again. As ever good father, but he wants to do it. Make his eight-year-old daughter cry. So I get in there with the boy, and the boy had been sparring, I mean, had been boxing for a few months. Get in there. My technique was awful. I didn't know what I was doing. All I knew was, I mean, I knew, I just wanted to go in there and just fight. And that's what I did. So I ended up making the boy cry, making him quit, and he never came back to the gym again. So the plan kind of backfired on my dad. But I think even though he didn't show it in his facial expressions, in his mind,

he was thinking, holy shit. Like, she has some, she has potential and there's something, there's something there. Like, I got to, I got to give her a chance to at least see what she can do in this sport. How does Dean get involved in your life? I mean, he became well known as the trainer for Sergio Amora. when Sergio wins the contender goes on to world championship level fights, fights burn as far as twice. Obviously, Dean intimately involved in that.

When does he get involved in your career? So around the time where I knew that I wanted to turn pro, I asked me and my dad had a talk and I was like, I want Dean to train me because I knew, like, I had a great amateur career. I had over 100 amateur fights. And my style's never been very amateurish. So I knew I would have an easy transition into the pros, but I knew that I had to be better.

I wanted to get better. Like, I still want to get better every single fight. I want to be better. So I told my dad, I think Dean would be the perfect person to just teach me new things and take me to another level. And my dad, like, what's so great about him, and he's not one of those boxing fathers who just want full control of their kids' career. and that was the great thing. I think that was the best decision he could have ever made was letting Dean take full control over my style and everything that Dean wants to teach me. So we were still training at the same gym as Dean as we've always had.

And my dad goes into the gym one day and says, Dean, can you help me out with Sanisa? I was, you know, we just wanted it. We kind of wanted to like break them in easily and easy and say, you know, just help her out and show her some new things. So Dean hates women's boxing, hates women's boxing. Well, hated women's boxing, could I say past tense. And he was not up for training me. My dad gave him some old tapes,

and he left him there and he said, here's some tapes if you want to check him out. And Dean would see me sparring in the gym here and there, but, you know, that was pretty much shit. So Dean was, Dean said he was bored one night. He throws on my old tapes and he starts watching me and he's like, he thinks himself, wow, like she's doing stuff that Sergio doesn't even do or doing stuff as a kid that took Sergio years to even perfect or learn. And I was just fighting off of instinct. And so he gave me, he, he, we came to the gym the next day and he's like, it's like, I'll help her out.

I'll show her some things. So Dean still didn't want to train me 100%. So he thought, okay, well, let me show her some things. It's going to just blow her mind and she's not going to understand it. And she's going to say, I don't want to train with Dean anymore. So he taught me this move. I mean, I can't explain it. I would have to get up and show you.

So he taught me this move. And I had sparring set up already the next day. So he's like, well, try it in sparring if you can. You know, no big deal. if you can't do it. And I thought to myself, this is easy. I'm going to do this in sparring. Like I already knew in my mind that I was going to, I was going to do it multiple times,

not just one time. Get in the ring. I do the move that he showed me the day before. And we still have the footage of that. You could hear Dean say, tell my dad, Joe, Joe, she fucking did it. She did the move. Oh my God. And he's like, it took Sergio fucking two years to perfect this move.

And she just did it the next day after I showed it to her. So after that, I think. Kind of the same thing with my dad. When my dad first put me in the ring and didn't think I was capable of doing anything, Dean kind of thought the same thing. And after that, it just made it so easy for him to just train me and teach me things

because I just picked up on everything so quickly and easily. You hear that a lot, or I hear that a lot, from women's boxing trainers, the skepticism they have coming into it, and then how happy they are that they did. whether it's Al Mitchell and Michaela Mayer, Ross Ename and Katie Taylor. And now Dean, who you're basically his stable at this point as far as professionals go. And he's totally committed to working with you.

Yeah. And that's crazy because I remember when Dean, when I first turned pro, he didn't tell me this because he didn't want to discourage me, make me feel bad. So, but now he told me years later that he thought to himself, man, if, This girl makes $50,000 in her entire professional career. Like, I'll be happy with that. And then when I made my first $100,000 for one fight, he was like, oh, fuck. Like, this is, okay.

Like, this is different. Like, things are changing. And I don't blame him for not wanting to train me or blame other trainers for not wanting to train women because I didn't like women's boxing either when I was coming up as a kid. Like, the fights that I would see on TV or would see in the pros. the skill level was just terrible. Like, why would you want to see that? You know, it kind of, it just wasn't where it's at now.

Now women are so skilled. If you don't like women's boxing and you watch the top women like Katie, Amanda, Clarissa, me, Michaela, all the top women, our skill level is so good that whether or not you're a woman's boxing fan, you're going to become one watching us because you just can't deny the talent level. You didn't have the traditional amateur pop that some of these other women had with. Katie winning a gold medal and competing in two Olympics. Clarissa winning two gold medals.

Michaela Mayer, coming out of the 2016 Olympics. What was your first breakthrough? What do you feel like was your Olympic moment where you kind of got that bounce that put you on another level? In the amateurs? Well, not the am. No, the amateurs because you were in the pros first. But like what was your breakthrough moment like in the pro rangers?

I would say I would say it all started with Tom Loughler giving me the opportunity to fight on multiple triple G under cards and then Chocolathleth-ethyl cards because obviously those brought in so many so many people.

Those are big cards and... Tom did a lot of stuff behind the scenes that doesn't get a lot of credit for it. He does. There's fly weights and mainstreaming them and as you said, you know, women's boxing putting you on those cards. Yeah, and he put me on those cards,

of course, because I was able to sell a lot of tickets in L.A., which is great. You know, of course, it was great for me. Tom does love when you sell tickets. That's another thing. Yeah. I mean, it's business.

It is. 100%. He wouldn't have put me on those cards if I couldn't sell tickets. So, but yeah, I love Tom. We still have a great relationship. And man, it's been almost 10 years since I've known him. And I'm thankful that he gave me that opportunity to be on all those cards. And that's what gave me that breakthrough.

I remember when I was on my first triple G undercard, Roy Jones was ringside with Max and they were rehearsing. And Roy kept looking back and watching my fight while they were trying to rehearse. And I can hear someone say, Roy, like, we're rehearsing. And Roy's like, no, no, no, no, stop, wait a minute. And Roy stopped the rehearsal, kept watching my fight until it was over. And then the next day at, I believe it was, who was he trained at this time? Jesse Vargas, I believe.

him for a fight at the press conference. I went to do some media interviews and I was sitting in the crowd and he completely stopped the press conference. He was like, I know this is completely off the record right now, but you see that girl right there? You pointed out me and I even look behind me. I was like, who is he talking about? And he's like, stand up. Tell everybody your name. And I was like, uh, Sanisa. And I was so nervous. And I was like, oh my God, like that's Roy Jones. my hero, one of my favorite fighters of all time besides Sugar A Leonard. So to hear him talk about me and just give me all of those compliments was just incredible. I cried.

I was like, oh, my God, like, I can't believe this. And him saying that to all of the media that was there after that, it made all of the local alley media just so a lot of them already knew me, but the ones who didn't, it just created this huge buzz around me. And that's when everybody was like interested in like, man, women's boxing can can make some progression. I think that's when people started to see that. And then after that, Tom was like, okay, you're on this card, you're on that card, you're on the next card. He had me booked for Triple G undercards and Chocolatito under cards months before they were happening.

He's like, you're on. That's your spot. Like, get ready. You know, so that was great. Because before that, I was very inactive. My professional career started so slow. And then from those cards that led to Golden Boy wanting to sign me. And that was right after.

How big a moment was that for you? Because you grew up in East L.A., same as Oscar Delahoyate. You were obviously well aware of his accomplishments. Was that something that you were hoping to do at that stage your career to be part of whatever Oscar was doing at that time? Definitely. You know, being from East L.A., Oscar was just somebody who inspired so many people. And them signing as far as the first out of the Olympics. I think the Olympic thing kind of definitely helped in so many ways.

Katie came out of there and then Clarissa after that. So signing a Golden Boy was huge. It was great. And they, I mean, and you fought for two world titles with that. I mean, how big, I mean, people talk, nowadays everybody kind of looks at titles sort of in a negative light at some point. It's, oh, secondary title, this. People have criticized titles.

But for you winning that first world title, What did that mean to you as part of your journey? It was great. I mean. Okay. Good quote. When people ask me that, I don't know, I think they expect me to say a whole speech of how I found and how great it was. I put my covers of Sports Illustrated on the wall.

Like that's my world title. I mean, my world titles and the two other intern belts that I've won. all four of those bouts are sitting on the floor in my bedroom. Not that I don't care about them, but it's just that first world title, it was, it was satisfying. That's all I can say. It was satisfying. But it's because I'm so competitive and there's so much more that I want. One bout is, is nothing to me.

I want to be undisputed at 105, 108, and 112. So I give myself no credit yet. I think once I'm once I accomplish that then I'll be happy with myself and you had to I mean when you were younger just trying to get fights you must have had to jump up and down and wait outside of your weight class a lot just to get some of these fights in the pros yeah yes but I had been doing that since I was an amateur I would weigh in with my dad's keys and cell phones in my pocket so I can get a fight because there wasn't many young girls at the time or women fighting so I would have to weigh in with all of

that stuff in my pocket, all my clothes on, just so I can jump three weight classes and fight someone. And that also transitioned into the professionals. I was fighting out of my weight class just all through the beginning of my career until I signed with Golden Boy. I was finding girls who were naturally bannam weights. I was eating and stuffing my face with food just so I can try to get close to the weight so we can make the fight happen. And once I signed with Golden Boy, I was able to finally fight girls who were naturally at my weight class, which is when all the knockouts started coming. So I always knew, I had the natural power. I just wasn't able to show it.

So if I would have started my career with Golden Boy, I would be 22 and O with at least 18 knockouts. One of my favorite, no, it's not favorite, but one of the movies I like is this movie that James Franco is, he's in the military and he's a boxer, and he's on the scale. eating a Snickers bar while he's on the scale to get to a weight to fight he's wanted to fight. Have you ever had to just pig out to get to within a certain weight range to take a fight? Oh yeah. I did that at least. I mean, every single fight I had before signing a Golden Boy. I signed with them when I was, what, 12 and no, I believe? And every single fight before that. Because so just so people know, you have to, if you're going to fight at, say, 115, you've got to be at 112, right? You've got to be within three pounds of that waste or else you're in a different weight class.

Yeah. Yeah. So I would eat. I remember one time I fought on, I think it was a Chocolatito undercard. And I had a gain about another three pounds just to make that weight limit so the fight can happen. And I had, my dad ran to McDonald's. I ate a whole meal, double cheeseburger fries, down to whole Gatorade. Still wasn't enough.

So he went to Randy's donuts and got me this giant. giant bear claw and a huge milk. So gross. It was disgusting. I wanted to throw up, but I had to do it. And ended up barely making the weight. So, I mean, things like that are just, it's funny to now when I look back and I think, like, what was I, what was I thinking fighting these girls who were so freaking huge?

I'm like, I'm insane for doing that. But at the same time, it's what I wanted to do. It's what I had to do in order to build my record and to stay active. Bearclaw and McDonald's, it would take me three days to get that out of my system. It would just be sitting in my stomach. I was disgusted with myself. Just so you want to hear from a fighter. Oh, and then when I fought Asparza, even though that was 112 pounds,

I was still walking around at, I don't know, maybe 110. So when I fought Asparza Fight League, I was at the buffet at the MGM. I'm eating pizza every day. And I still wait in at, what was it, one, maybe one 10 point something. On fight night, I was 109. I went back down. So, I mean, those are just things that I had to go through that now just make every, they make all the success now just feel even sweeter,

knowing that I went through all that crap. You've spent the last few years with Golden Boy. You've been off for 11 months in part because you decided to separate from Golden Boy and have signed with Top Rank. I know there's a lot you can't say about what happened there, but was it disappointing to, you know, growing up a fan of Oscar to not have it work out with Golden Boy? Yes, it was very disappointing. I mean, I don't know what else to say other than it just, we just couldn't come to an

agreement as far as how much money I wanted. I mean, I wasn't asking for a million dollars a fight. I was not even asking anything close to that. But hey, I'm back and I'm with Top Rank, and I got a great deal with Top Rank. It's what I wanted and it's what I feel I deserve. And these past 11 months, I felt like I was missing out on so much because I'm just so competitive.

Like, I want to fight all the champions. I want to have unification fights. I want to be undisputed. And this year I wasn't able to do that. So I felt like I just wasted a whole year. And then now that I'm back, I think totally differently because I see how great of a year women's boxing had, starting off with Katie in Serrano

and just continuing on with all these other big, great matchups. And now I think to myself, you know what, those 11 months were not wasted at all because I'm back ending the year that was already an incredible year for women's boxing. There's no better time to come back in women's boxing than right now. And all that time that I was off, I was still in the gym,

sparring to stay sharp, working on things that I wanted to improve on. So nothing, no, there was no time wasted at all. I think a lot of people when they saw you were going to be a free agent assumed you would sign with Matrum. Matrum has largely cornered the market, on women's boxing, they probably control 90% of the top women's box that are out there across continents, whether it's Alicia Baumgartner here in the U.S., Katie Taylor in the UK,

empty bridges, fights from Australia. What was the process like in deciding who to sign with next? I love Eddie, and I think he does an incredible job with women's boxing, and I even told him that. And when I met with Eddie, the one thing, like, I always love and respect about Eddie is that he, only did he say like I mean he told me he's like of course I would I want to sign you would love to sign you and I will if if you know it comes to that but he also gave me advice which is what I appreciated so much is that he gave me advice as to what I should do as far as making the right decision with a promoter and when I found out that top rank wanted to sign

me not only was the deal great but it just made so much more sense Eddie doesn't have any minimum weights, light fly weights or fly weights. If he would have signed me, I know for a fact he would have signed more women at my weight class, of course, for me. But the whole, just everything about the deal with Top Rank just all came together. And then the ESPN platform, I feel like it's being from L.A. and Mexican-American, I just feel it's a perfect platform and it's where I belong. Did it surprise you that Top Rank was interested at first?

they have done a great job with Michaela, promoted her the entirety of her pro career, but at the time she was the only women's boxer as part of their company, and we were just months removed from Bob Aram having some critical comments about women's boxing. When you first got the call from someone at Top Rank, what was your reaction?

I was pretty surprised. I mean, I know that I'm a perfect, a perfect fighter to sign as far as to represent women's boxing and with top rank. Like I know that, but like you said, they have not signed any other females besides Michaela.

So I was a little surprised that they were really interested in signing me. And they, Bob's comments didn't bother me at all about women's boxing. I mean, um, what promoter hasn't said anything negative about women's boxing.

Um, but it just, it all came together and, I'm just so grateful to be back with Top Rank, and I've always been a fan of Michaela's, not just in her repressional career, but in the amateurs as well. So I've always watched every Michaela fight, and I've always recognized how well they've moved her career in the pros. I thought they've done such a great job with her as far as promotion, marketing, and putting the money into her and taking all the risks that they needed to take in order to

to make sure that people know and people know who she is. And I thought that was always amazing of everything that they put into her. I always noticed that. So I always thought to myself, if I was the top rank, like I know they would back me up in that way and put all that they possibly could into me. What has your Bob Aram experience been like? Bob is great. He's a funny guy.

He's a funny, sweet guy. I can't wait to spend more time with him. And he'll look, he'll, whatever he said about women's box. boxing before, he'll go out there and promote you. Exactly. He'll be ringside at your fight. He'll be at your press conferences.

He'll promote. He's old school. If you're part of his stable, he's going to go out there and promote you even at almost 91 years old as best as he can. He's at every single fight. And he's sitting there, even during the undercar fights that aren't even, that aren't even televised. Like, that just shows how much he puts into his promotional company. So you return to the ring on.

Saturday, and this is a comeback fight. It's a defense of your 105-pound title. In your mind, what does 2023 look like for you? 2023 is going to be a huge year for me. Get past this fight. Argentine fighters are tough.

My opponent, I already know, is going to come to win for sure. Everyone who faces me has their biggest opportunity to defeat the underdog and take the spotlight and who wouldn't want to come in to defeat me. So I know she's coming to win, which I don't take any of my opponents lightly because of that.

So get through this fight and have my first unification fight in early 203 is our plan with the WBC world champion from Germany. After that, hopefully have another unification fight at 105, and then I'll have all the bouts at 105. So my plan at the end of the year is to have my first fight at 108 and start unifying there. And top rank is right behind. with all that, willing to make it happen. And with all the big fights happening in women's boxing, a rematch with you and Marlon Spars is still massive. You guys obviously have some spiciness to the rivalry there,

still, which is quite frankly great. I mean, we saw what the nastiness between Alicia Baumgartor, Michaela Mayer did for that fight. Everybody was eager to see those two get in the ring. I assume that's still very much on your radar to do a rematch with Marlon. land net at 112 definitely i still want to rematch with the sparsa um i want to just shut her up once and for all i want that to happen and that's definitely still on my radar for sure hopefully she keeps winning and keeps getting all the bouts it's a big money fight for both of both of you like

that's a huge huge event if that can happen sometime in the next year you're gonna have last thing for you um what's like people talk all the time i heard cloressa shields talking this week about it maybe she's by katy taylor like like the dream hypothetical fight we used to see it in men's boxing with Manny Pachial and Oscar L Hoy. Nobody thought they would ever fight. They did, and it turned out to be a huge moment. I doubt Clarissa and Katie fight, but, you know, we can dream about that. Is there like a way up and weight, way above your weight class?

Like, end of your career, like a dream fight for you that, like, let's roll the dice and see what happens at a different weight. Yeah. If I were to just take a huge risk and just face an opponent way out of my, well, I would do it out of my weight class. say a Bannamweight, I would want to fight Ebony Bridges. I love Ebony. I think she does a great.

Ebony, you do an amazing job at just promoting yourself and not giving a shit what anybody thinks. I think it would be a fight that the fans would love. I feel like the promotion for the fight would be great. And then, of course, it's a huge risk for me because I'm so much smaller. So it would be an exciting fight. 118 you'd have to I would eat

I would eat my way up I would I mean I'll have a very happy training cap I'll be at McDonald's every day now that sounds like something Sergio would say that sounds like something I'll be at McDonald's every day you must remember some of his weight cuts like he's told me many stories about the cut

for Forest 2 when he had to take the rematch like 6th yeah what do you remember about that well I remember Sergio just not, I mean, I couldn't believe how he just, how he just, how the fight was just so, so soon. I mean, as far as how much time he had to prepare. And Sergio, he loses weight in not a very healthy way. You don't say.

You don't say. But I don't take any weight loss advice from Sergio, that's for sure. He always says he lost that fight on the scale, even though he didn't lose it on scale. They actually made 154, but he always said I was a zombie after that way in. He was, yeah. He almost died. Dean found him underneath. He was trying to lose weight, and Dean found him passed out, just arms just spread wide open, laying on the floor.

Dean walked up to him and thought he was dead. And he was like, there's no way you're like, we have to. Dean was like, I have to get him through this fight without him getting hurt or knocked out. So good thing Sergio's footwork and defense came through because that kept him from, you know, getting knocked out and possibly dying. As a friend of Sergio's, do you support or are you against his passionate desire to fight Jake Paul in a fight? Oh my gosh. I would love to see that. Yeah. I would love to see Jake Paul just hits. Sergio with right hand. Just put him down.

I've told, it's too big a risk for him. Like, if he gets caught with like, I mean, Serge's even at 42. Sergio tape all over his body. He's like a mummy. But even in 42, he's probably a better boxer than Jake. But if your feet aren't there and he hits you with something. Like, that's your career.

Like, that's how you're not the contender winner anymore. You're not a world champion. You're the ex-champion. You're the ex-champion. Just stay retired. Keep commentating. I would love to see. I would love to see the shit talk that Jake would go after Sergio with.

It would be amazing. I think they both would. The buildup would be like maybe Tommy Fury, but there's very few boxers that would talk the way Sergio could talk in a buildup for a fight like that. He would run his mouth daily on every social media. And Sergio's training camp would be incredible. He'd smoke cigars before and after training sessions.

He would, you know, just be, He's the typical Sergio, gambling and smoking cigars, drinking beer. Would Dean Campos take him back? I don't know about that. No, Dean would always, of course. Dean would definitely be in the corner only because he's concerned that Sergio would be taken out of the ring in a freaking stretcher if he wasn't there in Sergio's corner. So yes, Dean would definitely be there. Well, hopefully we're not going to that fight any time.

see. Sanisa Estrada back this Saturday, defending her 105 pound titles. Welcome back and thanks for joining me. Thank you. I am now your highest rated Mexican guests over Sergio. Sorry, Sergio. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Kevin Ioli and Sanisa Estrada for joining the show.

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