The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Spence-Crawford - are we getting close?

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

Chris is joined by ESPN boxing writer Mike Coppinger to talk about the latest with Spence-Crawford and if that fight is going to happen, they react to Anthony Joshua's win and debate if a fight with Wilder or Fury is worth it for either side and finally, they dive into Shakur Stevenson fighting at 135 and if he will be as dominant in that class. Later, Shakur stops by to talk about the fighters that said NO to fighting him and what we can expect from him at 135. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Later in the show, we'll be joined by Shakur Stevenson, two division world champion, who will make his debut in the 135 pound division this weekend. Had a very interesting conversation with Shakur. Very interesting. Make sure to check that out later in the show. But first, ESPN Boxing Insider, friend of the podcast, one of those plugged in guys in all of boxing. Mike Coppinger is back on the show.

Mike, let's jump right into the, I would call it startling reporting earlier on Tuesday. Ring Magazine, ringtvee.com reporting that a Terrence Crawford, Errol Spence fight is a done deal for June 17th in Las Vegas. There have been, you know, rumors, substantial ones. substantiated ones, that the two sides have reengaged over the last few weeks. But this is the first we've heard that they've reached an agreement on a deal. What do you make of this?

And where do you think we stand with Spence Crawford as we record? I don't believe there is a done deal. I was told emphatically that there is no done deal, that the talks are continuing. I reported on ESPN, I believe, last month that Crawford and Spence have been re-engaging, as you said, that they got on the phone together. and hammered out what they felt was a fair purse split on the phone together. But there's no deal really until this thing gets papered and they agree on everything. Look how far along we were last time, right?

They had agreed to pretty much everything outside of the transparency that Crawford wanted that he felt wasn't there because he was working off of a purse split and not a guarantee. So, and I also told that the June 17th date is not even the working date. That's what I was told by somebody directly involved. So we'll see. Let's hope. Just like you, Chris, I don't think I'm going to believe this fight is happening until they're actually in the ring. Forget about the way in. Yeah, I agree.

You've legitimately got to have an official announcement to believe this fight is happening. And even then, get in the ring, fellas. I would say, I do know that Alexis Rocha, who is the mandatory for Bud Crawford's 147-pound title, is under the impression. that Spence Crawford is happening. I've spoken to people close to Rocha who have said to me that they are planning another fight for late May with the hopes that they'll get a world title shot against Crawford, Bacon, Belt, Spence, whatever later in the year.

So that tells me there's something here, Mike. There's some traction here that hasn't been there not since, you know, last year when they first started negotiating. It made me wonder, this is pure speculation on my part, but it made me wonder, like maybe Bud Crawford got to look at some of the financials that he would be facing in a fight with Alexis Rocha. Like it's a fine fight, it's a mandatory fight, but it's not a ton of money there,

at least not guaranteed for Bud Crawford to fight Alexis Rocha. It made me wonder if that caused Crawford to re-engage on this spent stuff. Yeah, I mean, there's only so many players that can come in from the outside with crazy bundles of money, right, for matchups that aren't anywhere near 50-50. So, and so for everything I've heard, there is a lot of optimism that is going to happen this time around. I mean, Spence was prepared to fight T. Thurman at 154 pounds. They'd even notify the WBA that was happening. And then that fight was never announced.

So yeah, Crawford defense have been talking. They're trying. I just don't think it's at a point right now where we could say this is done. But let's hope. Do you think, yeah, do you think if it does get done, and now we're just kind of at the guessing territory, if it does get done? But if it does, like, is this? still a compelling fight. Like, we know it's a major event. It will be one of the biggest fights in all of boxing. Right up there with Tank Ryan early in the year. If Canelo fights

Benavides later, whatever happens the rest of 2023. That's a major event. It's certainly the biggest fight that can be made pound for pound guys in the welterweight division. But Crawford's 36 years old and he has been a once a year fighter for really the last four years. Spendix. Spend, just turned 33. And ironically, he will have a longer layoff than Crawford would be coming off because he hasn't fought since last April when he beat Yodainus Ugas. And he really hasn't been the same guy since those, the first car accident, the major car accident. He had another car accident. He had an eye injury a couple of years ago. Like my, my Mayweather Pachial Tingle, Mike, is kind of going off here when it comes to Spence Crawford. Do you feel like

it's still, we're still within that window where this is a great fight in the ring and not just a great event outside it. I mean, you certainly make some great points about the inactivity of both fighters. They're advanced, not an advanced age, but they're advancing ages, but I think it is still very much a compelling fight, given their style clash, given how much these guys like to mix it up in action fights. You never see either guy in a boring fight that I can remember. Crawford looks really good against, I think, a solid welterweight and David Avenessie in December, spectacular or a knockout. I don't know how many people saw it, but it happens.

I think I do. Well, they saw the knockout. I got a pretty good idea. We know they saw the actual knockout. I think I know how many people bought it on a pay-per-view, but I'll leave that alone. But, you know, Errol Spence, Benesuchus is a top fighter. That was a great win. He stopped him.

And I think if Crawford fights Spence, it's going to look, Spence is going to be trying to, you know, work on the inside, you know, exert his strength in there, exert his size. Terrence Crawford is a switch hitter. I think it's a great fight. But it's got to happen this year. Yeah, that's the window. Is your, if you had, look, again, we're at this point, we're now both acknowledging they're talking.

Gut feeling, do we get it? Does this get done before the end of the year? I'm going to say yes. But I would have said yes if you said the same thing to me last, you know, one year ago. But given how many times now they've been down this road, you have to feel like, If they're going a second, third time around, that's got to be more advanced, right? Remember, maybe with her Pacio? They have been in talks, didn't happen.

Back in talks, nothing. And then finally he got done. And I think the same for Fury and Usik, where you had the failed talks this time around, maybe it gets done for later in the year. There's at least a foundation to build on, right? Yeah, and again, the Rocha thing is interesting to me because he had the power to enforce his mandatory status. Like, he could force a purse bid.

never came to fruition. I don't know all the details behind it, but the fact that Alex Rocha is looking at other fights for May, that tells me there's something substantive, some meat on the bone here with Spence Crawford finally getting to that point. So we'll see. Hopefully for everybody, it gets across that finish line. All right, I want to talk about the Anthony Joshua fight this past weekend. Joshua returned the first time since his second loss to Alexander Usick. He gets a decision win over Jermaine Franklin. I got to be honest, Mike. I wasn't that impressed with Joshua. Like, I went into that fight believing this was a guy that didn't trust his chin.

I finished watching that fight believing this was a guy that doesn't trust his chin. Everything he threw with power was one shot, then get out of the way, block. He didn't engage like the Joshua we've seen engage against Charles Martin and Dillian White and Vladimir Klitschko. It feels like that guy's gone. He's on his third trainer now in his last three fights. They got the job done. They got the win. but I didn't walk away from that thinking Anthony Joshua is back on top of the heavyweight division.

In fact, I walked away from that thinking, man, if Deonti Wilder was going to get Anthony Joshua in a fight, now's the time. If Tyson Fury wants Anthony Joshua to fight, now's the time. Not for Anthony Joshua, but for Wilder and for Fury. What did you think? For me, it is eerie how similar this situation, this version of Joshua reminds me of compared to the early 2000s version of Vladimir Klitsko. After that knockout, I lost to Corey Sanders, and then again after the layman Brewster Law. where Klitschko and Joshua both jab and grab similar sizes, right, both 6-6, like 250, safety first. They don't want to jump into the spaces necessary to both score knockouts and take those kind of damaging punches.

And I don't think Klitsko ever regained the confidence in his chin. And certainly Joshua hasn't since that first knockout loss to Randy Ruiz in June 2019. I mean, even go back to his last knockout win of Kubrat Pulaev in December 2020. Like a night fight, it seems like every time Poolev landed in a decent shot, Joshua was a little skittish. And maybe this is like the baseball, you know, the boxing version of the yips that we've seen with Chuck Nalbloc and tickers in the NFL where he just can't get past a mental block. I don't know. Yeah, I just don't think he's ever going to trust his chin again.

You know, whether that happened with the Ruiz knockout or whether the seeds were planted two fights earlier when he fought Vladimir Klitsko. Because Klitsko, that was a war. And even though Anthony Joshua came out on top of it, I've said this before. Joshua came out of that fight saying to people, I don't want to fight like that anymore. I don't want to be in those types of fights. That felt like the day the destroyer that we'd seen for so many years was kind of gone from existence. I don't get the sense that Eddie Hearn, Barry Hearn, the people involved in Joshua's career, are that motivated to make a fury fight happen.

Maybe Joshua can push it. Maybe Joshua can say, look, now's the time. We've got to get it done. But, I mean, before, you know, before this. past fight, I would have made Fury a substantial favorite against Joshua. Now I make him an even bigger favorite. Like Tyson Fury against this version of Anthony Joshua, he wins and he wins convincingly, and he might even stop him, you know, if Joshua engages on a certain level. I just think Matron and Joshua are crazy if they don't take at least one more fight before going

into a mega fight against Fury or Deonté Wilder. Yeah, I mean, the Fury Joshua fight for as long as they're relevant and probably going to be a long time, especially in the UK, it's going to be a mega fight, but I don't think, you know, you're going back to your Spence Crawford question. I don't think it's all that compelling. I'm not dying to see Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua. I would much rather see Anthony Joshua and Deonté Wilder because Wilder has vulnerabilities too. And maybe, you know, you have Joshua against a big puncher. You have Joshua maybe outboxing Wilder while he starts to stay away from Wilder's big shot. I just don't see what Joshua could do against Tyson Fury. Because even Vladimir Kuchka that we talked about, the earlier that version where your safety first, it was very effective the way he did it.

he would, you know, tangle you up, wrestle you, and it was boring, but he would, you know, win rounds with ease. And Joshua, I thought he won 10-2, so yeah, he won. Is Jermaine Franklin really all that good? I mean, maybe he could Joshua, a fight with Dillion White. I'm sure Joshua beats Dillian White, but where does he go from here? Yeah, you know, both Latimer-Klitchco and Lennox Lewis benefit from Manuel Stewart. Like, Emmanuel Stewart, if he were still alive today, would have been a great coach for Anthony

Joshua because he would have taught him that Vladimir Lennox style and it would have been boring, but it would have been more effective. And he probably would pick up some knockouts. Like, Glitchco over the years, they weren't spectacular. They weren't wars. But he was winning some fights by knockout because he'd land that big right hand behind a sharp jab and he'd get guys out of there. Joshua, look, Derek James, I want to give him more than one training camp with AJ to put any kind of stamp on it. But Derek James isn't trained guys like Emmanuel Stewart, at least not heavy weights like a Daniel Stewart. I don't know if there's a solution here to get AJ

to a level. He's 33 years old too, to get him to that level where he can compete at a wilder fury level. Yeah, and watching the fight on Saturday, it seemed like Joshua was very effective at times. Like when he would, the very rare instances where he doubled up on the jab,

I thought he did well. But then he would just go back to throwing one jab here. 15 seconds later would be another jab. A few different times he was digging to the body and I thought that was pretty effective as well. But it just, he just didn't seem like he could commit to doubling up the jab and pumping it up. And like you said, with Klichko, he would soften you up with the jab over 12 rounds and then kind of like by the championship rounds. You were so bruised up, you would just finish you off at the right hands.

Yeah. And for Joshua, like, I didn't see enough body work in that fight. And going to the body, it's very effective. It can be a great strategy. But you do expose yourself a little bit. This goes back to the chin thing. Like, I just don't think AJ wants to leave that chin exposed anymore. I just don't think he believes that, you know, after the Ruiz knockout and getting buckled

a couple of times by Usik in their fights. I don't think he wants to do it. I just don't think he wants to engage. I think he wants to try to win fights behind a decent jab, the occasional right hand, and if he gets a guy hurt, maybe he can finish him off. But Jermaine Franklin was never in trouble in that fight. Like he was beaten, fair and square, Joshua fair play to him. But Jermaine Franklin was never in trouble.

I do think the Dillian White fight makes a lot of sense. Like, Dillian White, look, I think Dillion White is more gone than A.J at this point. Like, Dillian's been knocked out in a couple of fights in the last few years. Pavecgin got him. Tyson Fury got him. This is not the same guy that Joshua fought seven, eight years ago either. I think that's the perfect opponent because there'll be a lot of bad blood going into that fight. Maybe that'll light of fire inside Anthony Joshua.

He can go back to Texas, keep working with Derek James for another three months. And then you can have a big domestic fight, maybe at Wembley Stadium, between two popular. guys in the UK. And that's a fight I think if AJ wins, and he could win spectacularly. I mean, Dillian White didn't learn how to block the uppercut. Like, that's still there. Like, that's still available to opponents. If he can win by spectacular knockout, maybe that will be the kind of confidence boost he

needs to push him towards a Fury fight. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that's the right fight. I mean, that was an excellent fight when I think I met it in 2015 or 2016. It was an excellent fight. DeLean White hurt Joshua in that fight. Joshua would knock him out, I believe, in round seven. But, you know, I think the British heavyweight that we should be talking about when it's not Tyson Fury is really Joe Joyce.

I'm so impressed by him, and I want to see what that guy can do. Yeah, I don't think AJ wants any part of that, though, right now. Like, Joe Joyce has a granite chin and walks you down. Like, that's not a fight I'd be looking for if I was Eddie Hearn and Anthony Joshua. I mean, look, we've heard talk about Joe Joyce against Tyson Fury. Are you buying any of that? Like Tyson Fury is still without a dance partner, no mandatory for him at the moment. Are you buying that Fury Joyce could happen this summer?

I am buying that. I think there's a better than good chance that we see either Fury versus Usick or Fury versus Joe Joyce this year. I'd be surprised if we got out of 2023 without at least one of those matchups. I think Joe Joyce is really, I want to say close to an excellent fighter. I mean, you know, he doesn't have the prettiest this or that. But like you said, it's like Blunt Forrest Tramble with him. He's just rolling right forward.

It seems like it doesn't matter how many punches he takes. They don't even, they just bounce off. and I think that's a tough fight for anybody right now. It's going to be a lot of fun watching him fight Zang next week. So more Joe Joyce than I want to say. Usik, I don't think that would have been necessarily the easiest fight for Usik when he was supposed to fight Joe Joyce. I might loom toward Joe Joyce in that one.

Call me crazy. I think Usik, because he's always in tremendous shape and he moves well and he's comfortable going the distance in those types of fights, I'd probably make him the favor because I think he'd stay out of the way more than Joseph Parker did and more than some of the other guys that Joe. has fought did. But you have to be in 12 round shape to fight Joe Joyce because he's going to keep coming. I remember watching the Parker fight and it just amazed me. Parker would land accommodation and then he'd get out thinking they have a couple of seconds to kind of regroup. Joyce was right

there, right back on top of him and kept wearing him down and wearing him down. And Parker's got a good chin. He went 12 with Anthony Joshua. He's got a good chin. And Joe Joyce just mowed him down in the second half of that fight. So hopefully we get it. I think Fury Joyce is a great fight. I think Joshua White would be a great fight in the summertime, and maybe you can start to build a little more towards a Fury and AJ Clash. One of the thing that was in the news this week was we got an announcement of the undercard for Ryan Garcia against Tank Davis. I didn't have huge expectations, Mike, because when you have a fight that costs this much money,

the undercard generally pays the price for it. I think that's what we're seeing here. I do like the Gabe Rosado, Bechtamere Melakusiav rematch. I'm shocked, frankly. Like, Gabe has been telling me for years, man, that he wasn't going to take that fight. He had no interest in facing Bechtar Meryl Kuziab again. They must have made up an offer he couldn't refuse to get on that card. But David Morel's in kind of a walkover fight.

Elijah Garcia there, he should win that fight. Like, I think if I was grading it, I'd call it probably a C or a C minus level undercard. What do you think? I mean, I've given up on expecting good undercards at this point in boxing. It just, like you said, it's a financial issue with how much more. money is being allocated to the main event, especially in this fight. And you know, you and I, you ask any promoter, they always say the same thing, right? Nobody's buying for the undercard. So promoters, the promoters in boxing right now have decided that they don't really have to put

a lot of effort. And I'm not singular any one promoter, but just collectively, that's not really a point of emphasis for them. I mean, I think the, you know, they had that Lucas Matisse, like Danny Garcia co-feature, to me with her Connello. That, to me, was probably the last great co-feature fight on a paper view. one of that. I don't know if we're ever seeing that one again. So, well, I will say, you know, we have a lot of fights that don't belong on pay-per-view. And this one does a league's belong there. I have no issue to pay for this one. No, none whatsoever. It's going to be a great fight. Don't blink. See what happens. Top of the card. And I'm looking forward to watching that one for sure.

All right. So this weekend, we've got Chikor Stevenson back in action. He is making his debut at 135 pounds. A two-division world champion, 126, 130. Missed weight in his last fight against Robson can say so, but he moves up to 135. Look, he asked everybody to fight him, you know, couldn't get anybody to say yes to him. So now he's got to settle on kind of a homecoming fight in New Jersey against Chasiro, Yusino. I guess the question is, like, are your expectations for Chaucor Stevenson at 135 to be as effective as he was at 126 and 130? Absolutely. I think Schorer Stevenson is going to be the pound-f pound king. I don't know that's going to happen.

But everyone you talk to in boxing says the same thing. This guy is a Camus fighter. My all accounts, trains really hard and doesn't have any issues there. It's an incredible talent. And he just hasn't had the opponent to prove it. And as you said, I don't think it's any fault of his own.

He's been calling through these fights, but, you know, I think people see how hard it is to look good against him. He's arguably the best defensive fighter in all of boxing. He's only getting better. And he's kind of a big guy, big frame. So I think he's going to even go higher than 133. I think we'll see him at 147,

Shpore is all set and done. But I do believe, yeah, I do believe that, and I'm with you. This is kind of the homecoming fight. It's hard to get excited about this one. But maybe it's a good showcase for Chikor, and hopefully we get Chikor against either Devin Haney or Vassilio Lomachenko at some point.

Yeah, what's your take on that? Because I'm of the belief that if Haney wins, he's gone. Like he's going up to 140, he's not going to try to make 135 anymore. I don't think there's a real interest in Team Haney's camp in a Shakur fight, at this point. Not that there never would be, but I think Devin is

outgrowing this weight class rapidly. I think he's staying because he's always wanted to fight Loma Chenko and he believes wholeheartedly that he will beat Lomacheco. I don't think he has that feeling at least in terms of passion to fight someone against Chikor Stevenson. Loma, I think, will fight

him. Like if Loma comes out of this fight with a win, he'll go straight into a Chikor fight. Loma doesn't want any kind of tune up fights. He wants big time marketable money-making fights. Is that your read on it too? I was with Devin Haney last week in L.A. I asked him this question of Chor. He said that he's going to wait and see how his body feels after the fight. He said he's open to fighting at 135 again, but he just wants to see how it feels. And he says it's a big,

big fight obviously. But I do wonder, you know, we've heard Bob Aram say in the past many times the marination thing. Is this fight for how much it's going to cost and for how risky it is for both sides? Is this really the right time for this fight? Of course I want to see the fight. but I'm saying from the promoter standpoint, are they really going to try to deliver a fight? What do you think? I don't because Devin's made a ton of money the last couple of years. I mean,

he had to go to Australia a couple of times, but he was paid very, very well to do that. He is being well compensated for this Lombocheco fight. Every time Shakur fights, his price goes up. Like he's becoming an expensive guy. I just don't think that the pay-per-view-bys would be there yet for Devin Haney, Shakur-Stevenson. Look, they're both in their mid-20s. Look, I'm all for making big fights happen sooner rather than later,

but I don't mind waiting another year to see that fight potentially. I wonder, though, like, I do think Uncle Eddie is going to be calling young Devin Haney when this next fight with Lomachenko is over. Because Eddie's kind of a player now, not the top-rank isn't, but Eddie's kind of a player now in 140-pound division as well. the zone quote side of the street could also include Ryan Garcia in the foreseeable future at 140. I think Eddie Hearn is going to make a play for Devin Haney. But Devin's been smart in doing these kind of short-term deals, two and three-fight deals that give him some flexibility, you know, within a couple of years to do whatever fight he wants.

And I love that. You know, we see that a lot with veteran fighters. Floyd Mayweather did that. Miguel Cotto did that. Mani Paki out to a certain degree did that but guys Devon's age don't often have the kind of control over their career that

they should but Devin Haney has that so even if he goes to Eddie I think a Schiqor fight is likely down the line I just think from every time I talk to people around Haney all I hear about is how tough it is to make this weight and I remember seeing him in the second fight against Cambosis

and you saw him at the way in man like he saw his face like it was so drawn he wore sunglasses the entire time To his credit, he's making the weight. Like, incredible. Like, he's professional. But I don't get the sense he wants to do that anymore after this fight. I think Lomachenko and then 140, here he comes.

Yeah, and I agree. Full credit to Devin Haney taking control of his career because he gets to fight whoever he wants to fight, really. And if he does stay with Top Rink full more fight, I mean, how big is Devin Haney versus Josh Taylor fight later this year? Or even Tief López? I said Josh Taylor because he's the favorite. But Haney, if he beats Lomachango versus the winner of Taylor versus Lopez,

at 140, I think it's not a monster commercial fight, but it's a monster fight for boxing fans. Oh, it's huge. And then if you're Devin Haney, you can start talking about Ryan Garcia. Those two guys have been circling each other since the amateur days. They fought five times in the amateurs. You know, whatever happens with Ryan and tech. I mean, imagine if Ryan beats tank. Hayney fight would be even bigger at that point.

But it's going to be big no matter what. And there are a lot of good options for him at 140. I mean, Regis Progris kind of just out there. I think anyone's got to fight Regis Pro Greigra. He might just be hanging out for the rest of his career, just sort of doing nothing. But that's a big fight. Yeah, if I'm Devin Haney, I'm continuing to do exactly what I've been doing.

He was kind of a showtime fighter early on that wasn't affiliated with PBC. He goes to matchroom, makes a bunch of money, wins a world title. He goes to top rank, gets two big paydays in the undisputed championship at 135, And now in his mid-20s, do whatever he wants. Like, I just, it's incredible. Kudos to Devin Haney and his team for doing it that the way they did. But we'll see what happens with him after Lomachenko. Last thing I want to talk about, Bam Rodriguez back on Saturday, dropping down in weight.

You don't often see this in boxing where a title holder drops down in weight in pursuit of another world championship. Usually it's the other way around. Bam Rodriguez is going down to 112 to face Christopher Gonzalez. And look, I'm pretty optimistic that BAM is going to be fine, but look, it doesn't always, it's not always successful where guys drop down in wait and, you know, have the same level of success. I mean, Manny Pacquiao did it, you know, years ago. Nonito Donair, more recently, he did it dropping down and weight. But you've got some high profile examples of failure.

Chad Dawson famously went to 168 and got beat up by Andre Ward. Glenn Johnson, I think it's done it a couple of times. So what do your thoughts on Bam going back down to 112 for a world title fight? Well, first off, this is going to be his first full-fledged world title that he's fighting for because the last title was, of course, with the nonsense, WBC franchise title held by Juan Francisco Estrada for no reason seemingly at all other than extra sanctioning fees. So I like it because 112 is now heating up, especially on the matchroom side.

I mean, Sonny Edwards is a fantastic fighter and a great personality. I would love to see Sunny Edwards against Dan Rodriguez. Still have Julio Cizor Martinez out there with match room at 112 with the title. So I think Dan Rodriguez is certainly going to be in a big unification violation by later this year. But you're right. It doesn't always work out. I mean, I think the example that comes to me is Oscar de Aloha, you know, draining himself to fight Bani Packett at 147, looking like a zombie, getting absolutely eviscerated.

And then, of course, Roy Jones Jr. after he beat John Ruiz at heavyweight, to when a title comes back and gets completely iced by Tarver 175. So, look, this isn't as big a jump, but it's not about the three pounds, it's more percentages. So it's not the easiest thing in the world. But he's not fighting a live body. I think Bamarig is like a 30 to one favorite or something wild. I'm sure he'll be fine. Yeah, he's 23 years old, so that works in his favor.

A lot easier to lose weight at 23, that it is at 33. That's for sure. Certainly at 43. I can attest to that. And I think it's a small. And I think it's a smart play for the reasons that you outlined. There's money at 112 now. There's money at 115, but he's got his brother there trying to do his thing.

And at 112, you can make some marketable fights. Sonny Edwards is a solid unification fight. I personally would prefer a Martinez fight because I think that's like rock'em-sockham robot. That's a far more aesthetically appealing fight than Sunny Edwards, which would be, I think, more of a chess match and a boxing match than the brawl that Martinez would be. But both those are good fights. Sonny Edwards now just signed with Matrum, as you said, Julio Caesar Martinez, associated with Matrum as well. They're both big-time fights. But look, Bam Rodriguez was at the very least top five for Fighter of the

year last year. It's the kind of year where, you know, he's fighting now early April. He could be fighter of the year this year, too, if he gets a couple of unification fights. Yeah, if he beats Edwards and Martinez and has, you know, ends up with the year with three titles of 112 and victories over those two guys, absolutely. And I see your point on the Martinez fight, but look, we know who wins that fight. There's no reasonable way to see Martinez beating Dan Rodriguez. Sonny Edwards, on the other hand, I think he's very underrated.

He's a defensive master. And I don't think it necessarily is the worst fight, in my opinion, stylistically. So I think Dan Rodriguez has shown that he's willing to come forward and press the fight, and Sonny Edwards will be on the back foot trying to jab. And usually I like those boxer versus pressure fighter style clashes. And the lead-up, too. How great would the lead-up be with Johnny Edwards' trash talk? Sunny Edwards' trash talk is weird, man.

Like, is he fight his brother at some point? Like, is that a schick or do you think that's real? Like, Sonny Edwards versus Charlie Edwards? Like, they seem to be have, it seems kind of real to me when I follow it on social media. I mean, I wish we could get one of those fights at some point. You know, the real ones talk about the quitch goes fighting each other. And then you have the Marquez.

I don't want to see brothers beat the shit out of each other. I don't need to see that. I don't, I mean, like, who wants to see family members, collab reach us? Not Jerry Springer. Like, who wants to see these guys go toe to toe to? We're not all masochists? We're working in the boxing industry.

I mean, you wouldn't have, how big would Vladimir Klitsko versus Battali Klichko? A little bit huge. Mega fight. I remember, I remember, like, 10 years ago I was on, like, PlayStation or something like that, and I started tweeting out live commentary of Klitsko versus Klichko from Fight Night, whatever the last fight night was. And it was shocking how many people engaged on it. Like, wow, I can't believe I'm following along a fake fight on a video game.

But it would have been massive, no doubt about it. Although, I mean, Sonny Edwards, I mean, how big is he in the UK? Charlie Edwards, how big is he in the UK? I don't expect that fight if it ever happened to be, you know, a brawl. Like maybe the Klitschko's would turn into, like, or the Charlos. You can imagine those two guys going at each other. But I don't know. It doesn't, I don't get, I don't get hyped up for.

Edwards versus Edwards. In fact, I think it's kind of weird. Well, I'm mostly joking. Yeah, you're right about that. You don't want to see brothers hurried each other and it's probably a boring fight because it probably won't want to unless just ultra competitive. But we're missing the obvious angle here, Chris, right? You work for the zone. Tag team boxing, Sonny Edwards and Charlie Edwards against Baner Rodriguez and possible breakback. I know you're going.

I mean, that's a, there you go. That's your next fight. Oh, my God. Could you imagine? I mean, tag team boxing is now a thing. on the zone. I can't believe that the commissions in the UK agreed to allow it. I don't imagine that Nevada, New York, or even Texas would allow it, but... Texas won't allow it? I don't know, man. That's another thing. Like, you got a concussion so

you tag your brother in. I mean, it's not WWE. It's not, you know, those, oh, God, my body's broken from a frog splash. I got to get up. I don't know. Hey, we saw some serious injuries on WrestleMania this weekend. I don't know about that. We did. Those guys are, those guys are wild, man. Those guys, they get it done.

They get it done. Shane McMahon, that was a weird one, but that's a story for another day. Follow Mike Oppager on Twitter at Mike Koppager. Read his stuff over at ESPN.com. Always good to catch up, Mike. Thanks for the insight.

All right. Thanks for having me, Chris. And when we come back, my conversation with Chikor Stevenson. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what you'll say. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your

podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot,

or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your problem. podcast. All right, Shikor Stevenson is here. Two-Division world champion, huge fan of mine, as he tells everybody all the time. He is back Saturday, making his debut at 135 pounds against Shiro Yusino, and he joins me on the show. Shikor, how many opponents passed on this fight before you got Yushino to say yes? I think it was three or four altogether. I think it was Isaac Cruz, Zepater, Cambosis, Yeah, three, three, three opponents said no.

Top level. Are you used to that by now? I mean, yeah, and no. I mean, I think that boxing lets certain fighters get away with Ducking. I think that if it was me, black young fighters saying no to fights, I think that they were broadcasted and tell the whole word that I was scared, like they did Floyd when he, before he fought Paci out. I mean, you've said you were okay with Cambosis passing on.

that fight because of, you know, he already had two fights with Devin. Was there one guy that passed that really pissed you off? Um, I think it was two guys. I think Isaac Cruz pissed me off because of the fact that his excuse was, um, that I was going to be running and you seen my last few fights. I've been standing in a pocket, um, being people with us. So, uh, I disagree with that. So that kind of pissed me off. Um, my next fight, I mean, the next one that pissed me off was a Pater. I think the Pater pissed me off because if he was really looking for an opportunity, a fight versus me would have been a perfect opportunity. And it seemed like he wanted the fight. It just seemed like Delaware didn't want to allow a fight to happen. But I think that's where

he got to put his foot down and let them know that that fight is definitely happening and they can't do nothing about it. Cruz is weird, man. He's got a little Raleigh-Ramero to him where he thinks that he deserves something because he lost to Gervante Davis. Like, he's gotten a little kind of big for his britches, I feel like, since he lost that fight to Gervante. I would love, though, Shakur, someday, hopefully soon, you and Zepeda would be fun. Like, that is a great clash of styles, I think. Zepeda throws a million punches.

You're as skilled as they get in any weight class. Like, that to me is one of the most fun fights you can make it lightweight. I agree with that. I think that me and home be a real fun fight. It'll be an entertaining, exciting fight because of the fact that he's going to push the pace and try to bring the pressure. And nothing that I'm bringing, he would think and his brain would stop him until he get up in the ring. But we think it's on Yoshino, man.

We can't be talking about. I've seen him yesterday. He looked real confident. Yeah. Yeah, I bet. I mean, for you, when you have so many guys kind of say no, does it make it harder at all to kind of train for a fight like this? to get up for a fight like this?

Nah, not at all. I think that I'm the type of person. I don't listen to narratives. Like, I told you I'm a lot more wiser than I was years ago. So I don't listen to narratives that, oh, this guy is not good. That's how upsets happen. That's how you see some big upsets happening in boxing. A lot of people then wouldn't have known that Anthony Joshua would have lost to Andy Ruiz.

A lot of people would have felt, oh, easy fight. Then you get in there and you believe, a narrative that this guy is not as good as they saying, you know, everybody's saying he's not that good and you believe that same narrative. You're going there and you beat lack of desical and you let off the gas. So I don't listen to narrative. I think this dude is he may be the toughest opponent of my life. Whoever would know until you get in a ring with somebody.

You don't know how much he trained to high in shape he will be. So I got to take him as I'm fighting the biggest fight of my life right now. And that's how I look at this fight. So it's not hard to stay motivated at all. He's got some legit power, that's for sure. At least he's shown that in recent fights. I've heard you say in interviews recently that your focus right now is on a completely different level. Explain that to me.

Why is your focus so much better right now? I think that my focus got a lot better with just paying attention to my daughter and looking at her. Knowingly, like, I want to provide for her for the rest of her life and make sure that she's good forever. or so that and honestly I just been sitting down thinking and I've been seeing boxing been going up to like a different level now I've been seeing all the guys fighting each other and I get motivated I want to be the best so I'm one of them fighters I want to prove that I'm the best I want to be the best I'm not scared of taking any risk when it comes to it and I think right now it's the time like

time is getting a lot closer now I'm 25 them big fights is really close like they can be happen maybe next fight or next year. So I got to be on the top of my A game. And I think that's what's been making my focus go a lot more up. What's your favorite thing about being a father? Favorite thing about being a father? I mean, I don't really got no favorite thing because at the end the day, I'm just enjoying the moment. I'm just enjoying watching her grow every single day. So maybe a favorite thing is her smile. I got dimples and my daughter got dimples too. So it's a beautiful thing when she's like smiling and happy.

That's like some of the best moments that I'll be having. What's your least favorite thing? Changing diapers. Changing diapers is my least favorite for sure. As I mentioned, your first fight now at lightweight. When did you know that you were done at 130 pounds? When I didn't make weight, But honestly, like, looking at it, looking back on it now, I had some disciplines that I got to take on fault on.

I had a six-week camp. I didn't have, like, a long camp. You know, I'm always training year-round. But being that I was big for the weight class, I shouldn't have had no six-week camp. I should have did it a longer camp and cut that weight the right way. So I take fault in my mess ups and I can't look back on it and dwell on the. it though so it happened i'm moving on but i think um it was my fault that i didn't make the way and i honestly feel like if i had to go back down on 130 i can but i wouldn't do it unless it's like a

big big fight but all the big fights at 135 so the little guys here he's coming to take over did you feel like you accomplished everything you possibly could at 130 you won two belts uh but do you feel like you you got everything out of it that you could I could have been undisputed at 1.30, you could say that. But that is, you know, if I didn't win and did that, it would have been, I don't think that would have been too hard, to be honest. So the champions that was there, they're solid. But we being honest, none of them could do anything with me.

So as the people was putting out, the real competition is at 135. So I'm here now. And like I said, the little guys here to take over. Yeah, I got a little bit excited about the Cordina fight after Cordina had that loss. but that win, but maybe down the line, you know, that could be a big fight at 135. Second straight.

He can't do not with me. He can't do not with me. He's a good fighter, but he can't do nothing with me. I've been around them for years. We came up in amateurs together. We went to the Olympics together. I'm a whole different animal. I'll give you a chance to go to the UK

and get a big fight there. That'd be fun. Yeah, if he could, you know, I hope sell it out. I think I'll be the name if I go there. second straight fight for you in your hometown of Newark. Were you a Marvin Hagler guy kind of growing up? Obviously, too young to see him,

but were you a fan of Hagler's style being from the same town? Actually, see, I'm a real honest gossip. I'm going to say no. But when I turned pro, I realized how great he was. Like I went back and watched more fights. I watched him versus Sugar Ray Leonard. I watched him like out of all of four. four dudes, I say he might have been like, he's the number one.

Like, he's right there with all of them, because you got to realize in all them fights, he really won and beat everybody else besides Sugaray Leonard. So it's like he could be number one and everybody else lost to one another when Marvin Hagglo was the only guy who really beat all of them dudes. And some people argue that he beat Sugar A. Linden, too. I think everyone related to Marvin Hagler would argue that he beat Sugar Ray Leonard in that fight. But he was another guy that, you know, maybe not on the same level, but he had a hard time getting fights for a lot of years. You know, in a way, you've had two big, or at least two titles, two title reigns and two divisions.

But can you relate to that a little bit, like just struggling to get those big fights made? Yeah, I definitely could relate, but you got to realize these fighters, they don't like, losing. Like taking the L on their record, it's not something that they want to sign up for. So they're going to say no to fighters like me. And like you said, Marvin Hagler, because they know what they're dealing with. That's a really hard fight to win at the end of the day. Everybody knew they signed up to fight Marvin Hagler. He was gritty tough, was going to put punishment. And he knew how to win. So at the end of the day, fighters like us, it's going to be hard for a lot of people to sign up to fighters.

And that goes along with the bigger fighters in the division, too. I'm interested to see if they say yes to me, too, because at the end of the day, I'm a bad motherfucker when they come to this boxing shit. Ray Leonard once told me that he said after the fight with Hagler, he saw him at some event in Vegas, and he went up to him. He said, you know, Marvin, let's do the rematch. Let's do the rematch. And Hagler looked at him and said, get a life rate.

So he wasn't going to do it. It's just, that guy, when he made up his mind, he was done. He was done. Yeah, he felt like he got robbed, right? He did. He did. He wasn't giving Ray the rematch. He went off to live in Italy and do B movies and whatever the hell he was doing over there for the second.

Actually, I went to Italy when I was a kid and I saw him on a TV. I went to Italy for a tournament. Actually, a training camp before a tournament. And I'm right there. I'm watching TV. I don't know why I'm even watching TV. I don't understand what's on the TV, but I swear he popped up on the square.

I'm like, yo, look at Marvin Hagel. It's so great. He was in so many weird movies later on in life, and he lived happily ever after over there for a long time. The belts that you're after are going to be on the line May 20th. Like, what's your mindset watching that? Like, are you, I know you're friendly with Devin under the same promotional banner as Loma. If Devin wins, I think we both.

agree, he's gone. Like, he's going to go up to 140 and, and try different things. So, if he won, you'd have a chance at a vacant title. If Loma wins, like, you could conceivably fight for all four belts in your next fight. Like, do you have a rooting interest in that fight? No, I really don't. I can't. I'm real at the end of the day, so I'm not going to go against the green. Just because, you know, the situations will be better for me. I still would like to see Devin, when I fight. Like you said, I was cool with him. But if he do wins and he do decides to stay at 135,

I'm definitely down for a big fight. And if he wanted to give me an opportunity, I can build. I definitely would enjoy that fight. And I would enjoy becoming a champion. Yeah, that'd be a great fight at 135. Even 140. I know you've said in the past, maybe you guys will meet that next weight class,

but it's a great fight either way. Last thing for you, we saw with top rank last. weekend, Robesia Ramirez won his first title at 126. You fought him in the Olympics. I know how much that loss hurt you. I was there in Rio talking to you after that loss. Is that, is a fight with Ramirez in the pros on your mind? Yeah. And no, because it's all depending on how big he gets. Like me right now, it's weird though, because we was close to the same weight when I seen them at Vegas, but me right now, I know, like, I know, like, what level I'm on more. I know who I am, so I'm not, like, fiending for it, but, like, I would love to get in the

ring. Like, I even ask, could I spar home just to, you know, just getting the ring and, you know, see what's going on, but, um, happy for him he did with his thing. They ain't taking nothing. I can't take nothing away from him, but, um, Good for him. I'm proud of him. He's a good friend and I can't wait to, if he gave me the chance to, like, let me get some sparring and I wouldn't enjoy that. You got to fatten him up, man. Get him up to 130, 135 so top rank could make that fight. He was in the gym with me. We had like, we was shadow box when we was training. They got like a video of us.

We was like four pounds away from each other. He told people his weight and I thought to myself, I'm like, man, we're close to the same weight. So it's like, I mean, if it came down to it, I would definitely be down. But I know he's like a little guy. He's not getting no big. I know he's going to stay at 126 for as long as he can. But I'll be at 135 for a really long time. At 135, first fight this Saturday, back in Newark, back on ESPN against Shishiro Yoshino. Shakur, always good to catch up, man.

Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you too, Christian. All right, before I get to this week's picks, I want to apologize to the audience for an egregious mistake I made last week. Last week, I bet on Anthony Joshua to win between rounds 7 through 12. The mistake that I made was believing that included in that bet was a decision so that if it went 12, I would win my bet. I don't know why I thought that, but I promise you, I was sitting at the hotel bar

in California, watching the fight on my phone. And when the fight went the distance and the bell rang to end the 12th round, I fist pumped, I high five people, I was all over the place because I thought I won. And like 10 minutes later, I start to look at the bet going, wait a minute, that's not, that's not right. Texted a few people, turned out I was wrong, felt like a real jackass. So I apologize to the audience. I meant to take Joshua by decision.

That was kind of how I felt that fight was going to go. Instead, I told you to bet rounds 6 through 12. So I promise to be extra careful moving forward with how I make these bets. So this week, we've got a world title fight down in Texas, a Shakur Stevenson fight in New Jersey. Both these fights, substantial odds in favor of the favor. So I'm going to look at the Shakur-Steven fight. Stevenson fight versus Yoshino, that fight in Newark, New Jersey on ESPN. Shikor right now, minus 1,600.

Not going to win a lot of money. But I think Chaucor Stevenson is great at 135 or will be great at 135. I think he's a pound for pound talent. I think he beats Yoshino comfortably. So if you want to put a lot of money on it, you're going to have a chance to make some money back because I think Chaucer Stevenson deserves to be a massive favorite in that fight. Shakur Stevenson, by points or decision,

that's the bet I would make where you could load up a little more and make a little bit more money. minus 2.10, according to Fandu, for Shakur Stevenson to win by points or decision. I don't think he gets the stoppage against Yoshino. Yoshino is a tough guy, comfortable at this weight class. I think Shakur might be feeling himself out a little bit, trying to figure out how strong he is at this weight, how much power he can take at this weight. So, Shakur Stevenson, by points or decision, is where I would go with my money this weekend.

So, Shakur Stevenson to win, that's an easy one. Schaure Stevenson by points or decision, that is your chance to make a little bit of money if you load up on that bet. Those are my picks. Good luck this weekend. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Mike Coppenter and Schoer-Stevenson

for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite, unhumored me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk, David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.

Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.