The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - The future of Showtime Boxing

Episode Date: March 3, 2023

Chris talks with Corey Erdman and Jake Donovan about what Jake Paul's loss to Tommy meant for him and his boxing career, is Bud Crawford making the right decision by working with Golden Boy, and what is the future for Adrien Broner? Lastly, the President of Showtime Sports, Stephen Espinoza stops by to talk about Ryan Garcia-Tank Davis, and the future of boxing on Showtime. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. All right. Play and hurt today. Welcome in, by the way, Boxing with Chris Mannis. Part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network, Colin Cowards Podcast Network.

Join this week by two of my favorite boxing writers, Jake Donovan, Corey Urban, both writers, over at boxing scene. And fellas, I am coming to you from my living room, or my office, I should say, and I have a big, giant boot on my left foot because X-rays revealed that I had a small fracture in my talus bone in my foot.

So I knew something was wrong. this last week really. But I also knew I had to walk the red carpet for the Creed 3 premiere. Had to walk the red carpet. Clearly that that movie could not go on without my presence. So I just put off the doctor's appointment until Tuesday, knowing that whatever the news was going to be, it wasn't going to be good.

Put on my shoe, took a bunch of Tylenol, muscled through it. And yesterday, or Tuesday, I should say, got the bad news that I'll be in a boot for six weeks. So when I am on air on March 18th for the Gabe Rosado, Gilberto Ramirez tilt in Southern California, from the feet down, I will be in, or from the knee down, I'll be with a boot on my left foot. So I just watch, this is my dedication, Jake, to this podcast that I am playing hurt, playing through pain in this one. I got to say, listen, I have experience in this realm. I have called a fight, several fights

with a boot on before. And my first date with my now wife was also in a boot. So I think there's hope for you, Chris. Some good things can come out of this era. That's very, very descriptive, Corey. I appreciate that. All right, well, a lot to get into, guys. I do want to talk about a couple of the events of this past week

and a couple of other things coming up. Plus the future of PBC. Stephen Espinoza, the president of Showtime Sports. He joins me a little bit later in the show. And we address some of those topics. But I want to start with the top. topic that makes the boxing purest cry. Jake Paul, the now once-beaten professional boxer,

six and one after his decision defeat to Tommy Fury over in Saudi Arabia. Close fight, competitive fight, not to criticize any of my fellow broadcasting peers, but I don't think it was a high-level fight by any stretch that was sloppy. And the one knocked down had as much to do with the ring apron being slippery in that one spot as it did a power punch from Jake Paul. So Jake Donovan, we'll start with you. You're impressed of the fight. Did it go how you expected that anything surprised you?

What were your takeaways from Paul Fury part one? Part one, exactly. Well, I will say, look, I was on record saying I thought Jake Paul was going to win. So people were clowning Tommy Fury for celebrating as if he won, you know, he matched Tyson Fury's achievement winning the heavyweight championship. This is his heavyweight championship. This is the biggest fight he is ever going to win. maybe he goes on to beat a KSI or another YouTuber.

This is his level. So that's really the only aspect that surprised me. I don't know if Tommy was at his best. I don't know. To me, it kind of looked like Jake was at his worst. So that did surprise me a little bit. I always said even I was ringside for, I think all three of us were ringside for his pro debut three years ago.

And I always said that he was going to evolve to be far among, you know, the best YouTubers that he couldn't compete on that circuit because he was too good. So this was like the first time we saw him take A. step backwards, I thought. Maybe with the first time around Woodley fight, but this one in particular, it was still competitive, though. So, you know, the dare was go fight a pro boxer. He fought a pro boxer.

I don't think there's a case for him to have won the fight. I was a little surprised that it was a split decision, but not really because it's boxing. I thought Tommy Fury did clearly win, but it was competitive. So I didn't think he disgraced himself in any regard. It just I think all three of us can agree. It just wasn't, I guess it was entertaining in its own

way, just not in the sense of an entertaining boxing match. Corey, would you think? Yeah, I thought that this was, you know, a good competitive club-level boxing match, which is not, like, coming from me, that is not a pejorative in any way. Like, as I wrote about on boxing scene.com, this is, like, Jake Paul is probably in, I would say, like, the top 50% of active boxers. globally, right? Like the boxing that we tend to see on the major broadcast outlets here is like the top 5% of boxers globally, you know, maybe 10%. And some guys will kind of slip in here and there

on the undercards. But for Jake Paul to have taken up the sport three years ago and to be able to compete with someone like Tommy Fury who has boxed his entire life is, as I wrote, probably at this point, kind of like a UK area level title contender type guy right now. He probably wouldn't win a European title today, but maybe that's kind of like a ceiling that he could aim for. It might even be too high. But even for Paul to compete with someone like that is still impressive. Now, people don't want to talk about that too much because it's a lot more fun to clown

Jake Paul. And quite frankly, there's probably more currency in clowning Jake Paul. But for what this boxing match was, it was a competitive. competitive club-level boxing match on the biggest possible stage that you could put something like that. Jake, does, you know, the outcome of a fight usually dictates whether or not there'll be a rematch. Now, Jake Paul does have a rematch clause. I don't know what the appetite would be for a country like Saudi Arabia or another Middle Eastern location to put on a rematch. Let's be real, that's where most of the money came from for this fight.

The big purse is both them got. It obviously generates some money. on pay-per-view, probably a lot more money on pay-per-view in the UK than it did in the U.S. given the timing of it, and 50 bucks, pretty expensive for like a 5 o'clock Eastern time main event. So are you expecting there to be a rematch? Jake Paul said we're going to run it back. And if there is, A, is there a chance the outcome could be different?

And B, is there going to be, do you think, an appetite for it? I do think the outcome can be different. The appetite, that depends. Maybe there'll be one, you know, there's an audience that wants to see. if Jake Paul can overcome, you know, adversity. To me, I always felt like he was playing with house money anyway. I don't think the law, maybe we'll get into this later, but I don't think the loss necessarily hurts him.

Most people tend to why he has to play with weather effect, except on a much lower, lower level where people just kind of watch to see him lose. They, you know, they pay to, you know, he always gets booed everywhere he goes. So I think there's always going to be that interest in his career. Tommy Fior, I don't see why he wouldn't take it, you know, especially, you know, I mean, if he's enforced. My curiosity is where it lands. It obviously can't take place in the U.S.

you know, the Fury family has a lot to figure out in that regard. So Tyson could fight wherever he wants Tommy is limited. And outside of a Jake Paul rematch, he's not going to make a lot of money unless he fights someone like KSI. So he's going to have to push all in for that. I just don't know. It seemed, you know, everyone was certainly watching on Sunday, you know, so, you know, people do pay attention when Jake Paul fights. But we kind of seen it, it's like, I don't know, you know, it's like, even like with Paul and Woodley, I thought the rematch was far less watchable up until that.

sensational knockout. That saved it. Up until then, that that fight was, in my opinion, horrible. So I just don't know if anything could change from the first fight, other than a better condition, Jake Paul, which obviously, you know, probably would lead to a win. Corey, does Jake Paul, you know, need to, quote, avenge this loss to continue to be as marketable as he once was? To Jake's point, like, if you're Jake Paul, there's just as much, if not more money in you fighting Nate Diaz. there's just as much, if not more money in you fighting KSI. You've got a lot of options in the crossover community that could make you a very rich man. But does he need to go back and do Fury again before he moves on to something like that?

Because people like Eddie Heard have suggested, don't do it, Jake. Don't go back in with Tommy Fury. Fight KSI next. If you can make a deal with Nate Diaz or some other ex-UFC star, go ahead and do it. Does he need to go back and do that? Well, I think to keep the same ceiling that maybe. he thought he had, both in terms of the amount of dollars he could possibly make and also where he thinks he will wind up as a professional boxer, I think the answer to that is yes. And to

Jake's point, colleague Jake's point, I think that there is room for improvement with Jake Paul still, right? There's more room for him to improve than there probably is for Tommy Fury. But as my other colleague, Chris Algeri said on his podcast, he thinks that Tommy Fury beats Jake Paul 10 out of 10 times because the experience gap is just too wide and no matter what Tommy will continue improving just enough to always stay ahead of Jake Paul. So there's that, but I do think that there's also kind of, there's that plan B for Jake Paul,

which is facing the KSIs, which is going back to the kind of faded MMA fighter circuit. And there will continue to be a market for that. It might be a smaller market because I think that there are, there's a group of people that are now, that we're tuning in, that we're hate watching, that are now satiated because they saw Jake Paul lose. There's still, though, a big group of people

that want to see him lose worse, and there's still a very big group of people that love Jake Paul, right? Like his audience isn't just haters. There are people that really adore this person, and we'll continue to face him. So, we'll continue to tune in to watch him. But he can always go to the other,

side. And by the other side, I mean kind of that the pure influencer circuit, the KSI side of the road, which is kind of opting out of being true pro boxers, right? The KSI's fights aren't on boxer act. They're not trying to oversell what they are. They're just selling grudge matches between influencers. And as long as he's okay with going and doing that, that is still there for him and it will still be wildly profitable. You know, Jake, I get Corey's point and Chris Algeria's point to a degree, but I don't, I don't agree with the Chris Algeri statement that Tommy Fury would win 10 out of 10 times. Like, Tommy Fury won that fight. I scored it for him. I agree with you. I don't think it should have been a split decision. He should have won that fight by a point or two. But like, Jake can get a little bit better as he has in virtually every one of his fights. That was the best I've seen Tommy Fury look. And I've seen, you know, three or four of his fights live, either in person or on TV. I think Jake can absolutely improve to the. the point where he can win a decision against Tommy

if you're. I think he came into that fight thinking Tommy wouldn't be able to take the overhand right. Well, Tommy was prepared for the overhand right. And when he did get caught with some shots, he took them because he's younger, fresher, he's got a real chin, that's what happens. I think if Jake's smart, and he is, he goes back in the gym, makes some adjustments, maybe comes out as more

of a boxer in the next time. That to me is the intrigue. Because I don't believe it's an unwinnable fight for Jake Paul. In fact, I think it's very winnable if he changes some of his game plan and fights a different way. Yeah, I agree 100. And, you know, to your point, like, it was almost to the point where he was kind of telegraphed in the Europe. We kept saying, everyone reported it, you know, that that's his money punch.

Tommy Fury knew that was coming. And Jake Paul, sure enough, you threw it. And Tommy Fury was prepared for it. I mean, I even joked. I think it was when Fury thought Anthony Taylor. I said, I don't even think he's ready for Sean Paul. Never mind, Jake Paul. So this was like the evolution of Tommy Fury in two years more so.

And again, Jake Paul, he doesn't know anyone in apology. He can go back to YouTube. I think it's kind of done him a disservice to try to prove to people that he can hang with an actual boxer. because his pay-for-view numbers have actually gone down. I haven't seen the figures yet for this one. Maybe it goes back up. But he's trended downward since he was on the Tyson-Jones on the card and then even when he fought Ben Ascran.

So going back to that YouTube circuit, I think it's going to work to his benefit, like, you know, from pure profit standpoint. So it's going to be up to him. Honestly, he has nothing to prove. He went in there. He shut everyone up. He fought a boxer.

He came close. Yeah. So maybe go and do to rematch, prove you can actually beat a boxer. I mean, he can go and fight, I think Louis Pineda, the guy that KSI Ford, who has become a big star in the Misfit boxing circuit. I mean, go fight someone like that and beat him. It's worked for

KSI, so why wouldn't it work for Jake? Who's that guy? And Corey, you probably know the answer to this. Salt chaker, salt. Oh, salt poppy. Salt poppy. Who has salt poppy. I'm sorry. I sounded so old saying that.

It's all poppy right there. But that guy comes in with some energy, man. He's got an attitude there to him. So yeah. It's a perfect opponent. It's good. It'll be fun. I actually prefer Jake.

Paul. I think he's going to take the rematch. I think we'll probably see it in the UK. Both those guys can make a boatload of money. But either way, I think Jake Paul's got a future in that influencer circuit as well. The real fight of this past weekend, 140 pound title fight. Guys, I have got this Twitter follower that sends me DMs, like once every, like, six or seven weeks about Subreal-Mathias, like telling me that this is the next. great fighter, the next great world champion. And sure enough, in the aftermath of Batiaz, winning the IBF version of the 140 punts.

I got another long paragraph from this guy. So Jake Donovan, I'll ask you this. Was this a coming out party for Super Real Matias? Like, we've seen him on the circuit for a few years now. He's been in prominent fights for a while. I think a lot of people, you know, kind of knew him in a tragic way for what happened in the Dodasha fight in D.C. a few years ago. But this is a 30-year-old fighter, blunt force power, great chin. Did we see the emergence of a new star on Saturday? I mean, to your point, I think he's

always been there. I guess he just needed this opportunity. Like, even when Regis fought Jose Zepeda, it was kind of a reminder that, yes, he is still, he's probably the best junior world to wait in the world, you know, even though Josh Taylor is the true champ, I would pick Regis in a rematch if they fought today. So Subreal, I think he made that statement that he's right there. He and Regis are both going to have a hard time finding opponents. So it makes even more sense that they do go and fight each other. But he made the statement that he had to make. I think he's always been at this level. He just needed this opportunity. I mean, the poor guy was training for like nine months, you know, waiting for this fight to finally transpire. He heard rumors about, you know,

opponent say not, you know, being able to settle up his visa, went back to a purse bid. TGB had to get, you know, regain control of it just to get this fight over the line. So the scary part is I think we're going to see an even better version if he doesn't have to, you know, wait this long in between fights. But yeah, the talent has always been there. I find it remarkable, too, that for, you know, all he's been through and the tragedy with the Dadachev, you know, to come back with that and literally still have that, you know, he's talking about still, you know, killing people.

I mean, that's a scary mentality. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's what's really stood out to me about Matias is, and it's, like, you almost don't want to say that it's a positive thing, but the fact that he has gone through that tragedy and still has that meanness and almost a callousness to his approach makes him a very scary operator in the ring. And when you combine that with what his attributes are in the ring,

which as you mentioned, a knockout power and a really outrageous motor for 140 pounds, this is a guy who is tailor-made for television. And I think to your point, Chris, I think the question with Matthias has always been, is this just a really exciting fighter who will see for a little bit and then he fades out? Or is he going to have some degree of longevity on the prominent circuit, you know, on showtime? And now that he has a world title and has a victory over another world-class type opponent, I think the answer to that is yes. And I don't know if I agree with the person in your DMs that this is sort of like the next great champion necessarily.

But he is a world champion. And I think that it's not a, I don't think it does him a disservice to say that, hey, maybe this is one of this generation's, you know, Brandon Rioses or Mike Albarados, you know, those type of fighters who win world titles and are just on premium cable for a long time and are one of the most memorable fighters of this generation. That goes a long way. That makes you a lot of money. That keeps you in the fans' consciousness for a long time. and the types of fights that Matias is delivering and probably will continue to deliver are going to make him that

if he continues to get these opportunities. Yeah, Jake, I'd level him above guys like Alvarado and Rios who were fun fighters, but I don't think they were, we wouldn't consider one of them great fighters even at their apex. I think Matias has that potential

to be not just a world champion, but a unified world champion, maybe an undisputed world champion. I mean, look, Ponce is good, not great, but he came out in that first round, and he was throwing bombs. He was coming right at Matias, throwing big shots. And what impressed me about Matthias, at the end of that first round, after taking that onslaught, he just kind of shrugged his shoulders, went back to the corner, settled down, got back into it,

started landing his own shots to the point where that was after the fifth, Ponce's corner's like, oh, screw this. I'm not doing this anymore. Like, my guys, but it was like the, we should almost brand it, like the Hector-Louis-Garcia business decision moment. Like, just, you know what? Let's live to fight another day. on this one. This guy's kicking her ass. I think this guy's got a pretty, a pretty high ceiling in 140 pounds. Yeah, definitely. I mean, he's got, I mean, he's got, I love the fact that he went back.

He avenged the lone boss he had. He said it was an off night. He accepted the defeat. He went back and he knocked that guy out. The fight that really impressed me, I was ringside for it when he beat Batyr, uh, excuse me, jikambaya, I think I'm probably, I'm impressed that you. I'm impressed. You got that far. I'm impressed. Thank you. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. You got that far. Yeah. Corrie's always the superior researcher to me. Thank you, Corey. But yeah, but, but, but, but that That fight, I mean, again, it was like he had to overcome a little bit of adversity. You know, that guy was coming on. And then it just, Mattias, once he gets going, like, it just seems to be no stopping him.

So, Ponce, I got a sense of that. I think that's going to be the case with, I could really see him running the tables on the PBC side, at least. I think he's very competitive with Regis. I think he would probably beat Josh Taylor right now. I just don't think Josh Taylor's any longer at his best at 140. I think he's doing a disservice by staying at this week. But he might be in no man's land.

But to me, the fight is going to be Regis and Mattius. I think Subria beats everyone like Roli Romero, Pueyo, anyone that PBC can offer him. I think he would run the tables over there. I would say not only do I give him a shot against all the guys in the top 10 at 140, but the other thing is that I think the matchup of Matthias against any one of those guys in the top 10 is more exciting than any other matchup than you could make between any combination of other guys at 140. And that's important too. You know, I think Mattius against Mattis against Jack Caterall is more exciting.

than any, like in terms of pure action is going to be more exciting than any other pairing of two men at 140. And, and that, like, that enough is going to get people to tune in. You know that Corey's got like a poster of that Eastern European guy you just named there, like behind him. He's like, oh, I know that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He lived in Canada. I called, I called three of his fights on ESPN 12. It was phenomenal. I have called three of his fights. I'm shocked. I'm not shocked by that. You know, you got to, you guys. mentioned, and Jake, I'll put this to you, a Pro Gray fight's a no-brainer, right?

Pro Gray's already on Twitter talking shit, saying I'll eat this guy for lunch. Matias doesn't back down from anybody. It's a meaningful fight because two titles would be on the line. It would leapfrog the winner into a different stratosphere and be a fight of the year contender for sure,

maybe an obvious one. Question is, who's going to pay for it? Right? That's what it always comes down to. And Progray right now is in no man's land of his own trying to get a title defense done in the first half of this year so we can look at, you know, potential options in the second half.

Matias, maybe he's got an IBF mandatory coming up, but that's probably a little bit further down the line. Like to me, the windows now, right? It's like June, July of this year where the winner of that fight can be that guy that can look to the winner of Taefima Lopez, Josh Taylor, and say, I got two belts, you want them? Can maybe look to Ryan Garcia if he moves up and wait after this Jervante fight and say, you want a big fight?

I got two belts. You want it? You know, I don't, I guess I'm pessimistic, Jake, that that fight could actually happen because they're both going to want like high six figures at least to get it done. And I don't know who in the boxing broadcast landscape is going to pay for it. No, I'm with you on that. And, you know, with Regis, look, Marvin Rodriguez, I think he spent the only $2.4 million that he had to ever get in the Regis pro great business again. So the thing with the Mateus, I actually just reported today. The IBF is now in the process of trying to establish a mandatory for Matea.

So they sent invitation letters to Ergachev and to Jack Caterall. Ergachev is already accepted, so it's up to Caterall. So they would have to fight to become his mandatory. That means Mitya should be entitled a voluntary defense. He would have to get back in the ring soon, not wait another 13 months or whatever plan. Hopefully, you know, PBC and Showtime are motivated to, you know, roll these guys out more often than once a year like we got last year. So with that, I don't know if a program fight could happen next. but progrey he's stuck with the whole whatever's going on probelum that you know i know they're in the

process of being sold to this disrupt promotions whatever company i don't know what fighter is going to go on board i was told it's going to be like less than a third of the of the roster on probellum that would go over to them but i don't know if that creates even more problems for him he would probably just have to make another deal with pbc because you know we we dream about all these fights but then again it's like who is going to pick up the check so pbc would have to decide yes it's a good fight and you can't put that on pay-p-view. It has to be a showtime main event. So then you have to establish the budget for that. But if Matias can get back in the ring within the next six months and Regis can't get someone like a Sergei Lipignettes or, well, obviously, Gary Antswan

Russell's now going backwards, you know, in his career, in his development. That fight makes sense. It's like if you can make that fight now, let's do it now. Yeah. Corey, that's an awesome showtime main event. Like that's a huge viewership, huge, you know, event. Maybe you do it in you know, Texas, Louisiana, somewhere close to where Reed just draws a few fans. But that's a massive event. Yeah, I'll keep some praise on it. And, you know, I think that, you know, calling it one of the best fights that you can make in boxing, some people might kind of like bristle at that.

But so I'll qualify it on a personal level. For me, Matias versus Pro Gray, it feels like one of the most aesthetically pleasing fights that you could possibly make right now that are reasonable. You know, Matias and his punch output and then Progray with that combination of kind of slickness and willingness to work on the inside, to me, that is just like, that's the kind of fight that I dream about. So I wanted to get made. And I don't know what kind of viewership that it would get. But as long as someone picks up the Showtime boxing rights here in Canada, which is a big problem, I will be one of those viewers. I think Matias versus Progray should become your Android chival.

Charlie. Yeah, I maybe. You should adopt it. And that way you can feel the pain of something never happening because I've got years. Maybe then I'd have someone in my DMs. I have no one in my DMs. You don't want these people in your DMs. You do not want them in your DMs.

Good segue there, Jake, to talk about PBC. In the PBC universe, fighters seem to be, let's just say, branching out for now more than ever before. You got Fulton going over to Japan at some point to fight. in a way. Deonti Wilder recently declared himself a free agent. Andy Ruiz sort of did. Like, said he's leaving Tom Brown, but he's staying with Al Heyman. I'm not sure what that means. You know, you're connected to the people inside PBC. Do you get any sense that there's some kind of shift going on there? Is this just the case of a few top fighters are exploring other opportunities, or are we seeing something fundamentally change or the beginning of potentially something fundamentally changed with PVC? Yeah, it's tough to get in the weeds with this,

because like once you start asking these questions, then you get like such varying different answers. There's this audience that wants to see BBC just finally crash and burn. They've been predicting it since 2015. There's others who just stand in front of a fire and say everything's fine, you know, you know, there's no problems. I do like Showtime's commitment. We're seeing it like in the first six, seven months. They're certainly putting on a lot of shows. I'm not going to say it's like their best schedule. I thought even what they did in 2021, you know, eclipse is what they're doing now. But the effort is definitely there. I want to focus on the positive, though.

I prefer like Fulton saying, okay, well, you're giving me this rematch with Brandon Figueroa, but hey, in a ways, moving up to 122, I want to fight this guy. And then they went ahead and made that fight happen. So it's obviously in a fight that's way too expensive to put in the U.S. without putting it on pay-per-view, and it's a pay-per-view disaster. Bolton's willing to go to Japan, get a huge payday for this fight and a win-able fight. So that's, you know, I like that, you know, PBC, not PBCC is allowing it, but they listened to what Stephen Fulton wanted,

and they said, go ahead and make that fight happen. And he did. With Wilder and Ruiz, it's disappointing that the money is not there to satisfy both of them. But I don't know if I blame PBC for that. I think to say this is what the fight is worth to us to put on, even to put on pay-per-view. Deonté Wilder and Andy Rue is saying, we want more money. So, you know, now Deontes explore another option.

I don't even know if that fight is going to happen. But if they're asking for far more than what they think is fair, I'm walking about. I think that's a fair reset on. the part of PBC. So I'm not going to say, you know, that they're going to close up shop yet. I think they just reevaluate, okay, where should we be spending our money? Especially, you know, we got to remember too, Fox Sports is no longer doing boxing. They were supposed to do, you know, pay-per-views. I don't know what happened with that, but it's now down to showtime.

It's all the showtime, even if they go every other weekend. There's still only so many dates they can give to satisfy all these contracts. So I think, you know, in that regard, you know, where Wilder and Ruiz are claiming, you know, promotional free agent status, yeah, go ahead and go explore, see who's going to give you more money. If they can go fight in the Middle East, then God bless them. You know, that's less money out of PBC's pocket. So I think it's just a smarter investment on their port. Yeah, and Corey, I think it's great to see at least the possibility of guys bouncing

from promotional companies to network. There's no real downside to it. I mean, like, Andrew Ruiz made it clear. He's still working with Al-Haman. Deonté Wilder is still working with Al-Haman. And Al-Han will be involved in negotiations for their next fight wherever it is. on whatever network it lands on. Like Eddie Hearn has some kind of relationship with Middle Eastern countries.

Maybe that could be what gets a Wilder Ruiz fight done, which is ultimately all that matters. We just want to see those two guys get into the ring. And, you know, look, Ryan Garcia, Tank Davis is happening because Ryan Garcia and Golden Boy are doing a deal where the fight is going to land on Showtime pay-per-view. Like this kind of should be how it works, like where maybe we can slowly start to break this,

mold where exclusivity is all that matters. I mean, it's to a lesser extent, but I was reading on boxing scene, you know, Joe Markovsky at the zone, you know, writing or saying to a reporter, like, we're open to all promoters. You want to bring a fight to us. You got a good one. Like come, come over here, like pitch it to us. Like, who knows if they will, but if, you know, if there aren't, if PPC doesn't have the options that it once did, specifically when it comes to networks, two of them that would put on fights. I'd love to see them start working with other companies. other networks just to try to get some of these big fights done. Yeah, and maybe some of this is out of necessity.

I mean, obviously, to a certain degree, it must be. But maybe, you know, some of it is, it's just them deciding, okay, this is the best course of action. Like, I have no special insight on what's happening. I come to you guys, the capital R reporters to learn some of these things as far as, like, what's happening. We'll put Jake in the capital R. I'll go lowercase.

Okay, yeah, yeah. I do not have an R in my, at the beginning of my job title whatsoever. But I will, I would say this. Like, I think there's a tendency when we talk or when people, not we, when people in boxing talk about PBC and Al Heyman, there's a tendency to lead with skepticism. And I am quite the opposite, you know, and I, you know, as someone who also loves the music industry and knowing kind of Al's history and what he did, like the landscape, as we know it, of the music industry and the live event industry, the ticketing industry. like Al Haman is extremely crucial to a lot of what we know as the like the modern foundation of how things in modern promotion and I mean event promotion period and how they work period. So I there's a there's a degree of trust that I have in the decisions that he makes that they

will be good ones for his clients and obviously monetarily for himself. So I don't necessarily know what's going on. But what I do know is that the two fights that we're most excited about, by and large, involve PBC fighters crossing over to fight someone else right now. So my feeling right now is that whatever is happening is something that's probably going to benefit the fighters right now. And I just generally have trust that Al Heyman is going to make a good decision. Look, I think it is a good decision not to guarantee huge sums of money for a wilder Ruiz fight. because as compelling as the three of us find that fight,

I don't think it's going to have the mainstream appeal that will justify like $5 million a piece more, perhaps, in potential purchases, you know, pay-per-view buys. So that's, you got to do what you got to do. Like, I've often said this. Like, I don't believe there should be anything more than minimal guarantees in pay-per-view. That's the whole point of pay-per-view.

You are paid per view. If you don't get the views, you should not be paid because you didn't get them. Like, I'm not trying to be pro-per-review. promoter here, a pro advisor, but these networks and promoters should not be left on the hook to pay a big bill just for the right to get these fights on their network. So I like that, and I like the idea of cross-promotional stuff because these guys, Jake, they got to be busier, man. Like, you can't build a career fighting once a year. You just can't. No matter how big that fight is,

you got to fight minimum two times, and if there's an opportunity, fight three. I understand injuries happen, tough fights, takes them extended time off. But like, the fact that these, Deonté Wilder who had a one-round fight against Robert Hellenius back in what, November, whenever that was, October. Yeah, like, is now, we're looking like, what, June, July, maybe for his next fight? Like, you got to, these guys got to get back into it and be active. Maybe this Jake is a way that it can happen. Maybe, and again, we're sometimes too optimistic about what boxing can do,

but, like, maybe this is a way that we get guys busier because that's what will help the sport more than anything. Yeah, no, I agree 100%. And, you know, I do applaud that, you know, they're not, you know, for people say, like, Al-Haman is this control? freak that, you know, everything has to happen under his, you know, tent or whatever, you know, allowing them to branch out, you know, so to speak, I do have to applaud that.

You know, to your point, like, if guys don't want to settle for like, okay, well, this is the only date that Showtime has available. This is the budget they have available. They need to get in the ring as often as possible. So, yeah, I can't agree more with that point. Yeah. Another potential move that we have for this year is Terrence Crawford, who seems to be treading towards a deal with Golden Boy.

I saw Crawford at the Creed 3 premiere, we're both movie stars, as you guys know. And, you know, it does seem like the Alexis Rocha fight, one way or the other is going to happen. The WBO recently ordered that fight. Corey, you know, I've said to you before on air, like, I'm fine with that fight. Like, Crawford's a massive favorite,

but you got to defend your title against the mandatory. Alexis Rocha is the highest rank guy. If he knocks him out, big deal. Like, you've got to test yourself at some point. And for Bud Crawford, it goes back to the thing about activities, but a once a year fighter for like the last three and a half, four years. Like if you can get an opportunity to get right back in in April or May, probably May, and fight in Alexis Rocha, don't you just have to do it and see if you can build some momentum

back yourself? Yeah, 100%. Now, is this obviously the ideal scenario or the one that everyone wanted? No, but it is also the position that we're in. Like, could better decisions have been made that would have resulted in him facing Errol Spence, yes, but the position that Crawford is in right now, he needs to link up with somebody to start making fights because he can't just fight on BLK Prime and be able to fight the caliber of opponents or the frequency of them that he would like or that fans would like for a top

level fighter. So, you know, it's obviously second to Crawford Spence, but if we get Crawford Rocha as a potential, you know, trampoline towards. Crawford versus Virgil Ortiz, that to me is very positive. And also, you know, we called Alexis Rocha George Ashy and you asked Rocha the question, you know, like, do you think you're ready for Terrence Crawford? And he also isn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. He said, I don't know, I guess I'll fucking find out when I get in there, you know, like that's, we'll find out.

And so he's willing to test himself. Rocha isn't saying, like, I demand this fight. I, you know, I 100% deserve this fight. he kind of recognizes that yeah he's been fighting the george ashies but he is positioned within the rankings to get a terence crawford fight so of course he's going to challenge himself and take it so i think that this is the type of fight that is is good for terence crawford right now and also not one that anyone needs to lie about in terms of what it is you know rocha i think i saw the odds today is a plus 600 underdog that's fair that's what this fight is and it's a potential uh appetizer for crawford virgil or

which everyone should be excited about. Jake, I'm kind of impressed that Golden Boy might be able to get this done. Like, granted, Crawford doesn't have a lot of options right now. He's, I guess he's still involved with a lawsuit somehow with top rank. They're not going to work together. The PPC conversation didn't end well. Eddie Hearn doesn't have anybody for him. I guess Golden Boy was really the only game in town.

But even when that picture was posted on social media, I'm like, all right, well, that's nice. It's a little publicity stunt. I wasn't sure it was going to get done. but it does seem like, you know, a rocha fight is probably the favorite at this point to happen for Crawford next. And, you know, I look, if Ortiz beats Danny O's, by the way, 50-50 fight, that's no guarantee that happens. Ortiz against Crawford would be a pretty big event.

So I guess the question is, like, are you surprised at the path we're kind of on right now with Crawford leaning in Golden Boys direction? So when I saw that picture post, you know, my first question was, okay, is this just Oscar trolling? Obviously, you know, as you said, it's a Rocha fight week, so why not draw attention to it? But when you look at the rankings, it makes sense. We knew Rocha was going to float up to that in the moment position because Boots was ahead of him. Virgil Lathis was ahead of them.

They're both fighting, well, Boots now has the interim IBIF belt will probably be upgraded. Ortiz is obviously fighting Stanionis. They'll probably be upgraded to the WBA full champ. So the next step would be for, you know, Bud to make his mandatory title defense against Rocha. And I'm fine with it. Look, I mean, there's still people who are stuck on Crawford Spence has to happen. It's not going to happen. We don't even know if Errol Spence is going to return to Walt's away.

And I've said this. Look, last year the fight was supposed to happen. I'm fine. Blame, Bud, give him 100% of the blame. That's fine. You can't change what you had for dinner last night, though. It's time to move on. Bud can't sit around and just say, okay, well, I'm going to wait for Spence to make his next move.

His fight hasn't even been announced yet. We have an idea of when it's going to happen. But that, you know, showtime intentionally has not yet announced it. So Bud has to move on with his own career in the meantime. So I think it's a perfectly acceptable fight. You know, as far as like, you talk about staying active, you know, Alexis Rocha lost the fight. He lost to Rashidi Ellis. He's fought six times since then. His last fight was his fifth fight in, I think, in like 13 or 14 months. So that's what you do.

Now he's worked his way back into contention. And, you know, like he said, I don't know if I'm going to be good enough until he get in the ring with him. Even if he loses, he's 25 years old. He has time to come back from that. So these are the type of fights like when they only happen once a year, yes, the fight's not good. But when you get guys who are active, these are the type of fights you get to fill the gap. So that's what I view it as. So, and if this fight does lead to Bud fighting the winner of Ortiz and Stanionis, even if he doesn't sign with Golda Boy, as long as he has that work in relationship. Because like you said, the bridge has been burned with just about everyone else. I mean, he has, I think he has a decent, you know, I don't know if he has any kind of relationship with Eddie Hearn, but at least Eddie was honest and saying, well, I don't have anyone

on this side to offer him. So why would I sign him? Golden Boy has guys that they can throw at him. So I'm fine with that. He needs a work in relationship with someone, even if not necessarily a promotional contract. So I'm fine with this past. And one thing I would add to that, too, Jake, is that it's beneficial for Crawford at this point from a PR perspective because he is kind of fighting a little bit of an upward battle, right? Because there are a lot of people who put all the blame on Bud for that fight not happening.

But so, yeah, he can't change what happened there. But one thing he can do is just be purely active. Just sheer activity is what he does have at his disposal if he can work with a golden boy and with some other promoters. He can't give people the gourmet meal that they wanted, but he can give them not. not a buffet, but he can give them dim sum. You know, he can give them like, you know, 60% caliber dishes quite often. That, and that's, that will help. That will help his standing amongst the fan base.

By the way, Jake, the people that play the blame game on Crawford versus Spence, if you put a gun to my head right now and told me who's at fault, I would have no idea. No idea. Like, look, we all talk to people in this business. Everyone's got an opinion. Everyone's got a take on it. we all followed or tried to follow that Twitter beef and then the video Crawford posted out there

but like if you are sitting there listening to this podcast telling me you know definitively who is to blame for that fight falling apart you are a thousand times smarter than I am you are because for whatever reason it crumbled Crawford has his reasons for walking away Spence had his reasons for pushing for whatever he pushed for it's too complicated right now

hedge funds foreign countries splits expenses. I don't know what the fuck is going on with that. That was wild. I would say I have Jake, I don't know about you, but I've kind of, I always say this. I've abandoned this fight happening or Spencecroft happening at 147. I don't think it's happening at 147 because I don't believe Spence is going to cut back down seven pounds. I think he's at 154 now. He'll fight Keith Derman at some point. I don't know like what happens with Charlo in those belts. Like I don't imagine they never fight each other. They have the same trainer and I don't know. It just naturally it seems a little odd. But like if belt becomes vacant or Jermel Charlo moves up to 160, which is certainly possible.

It's open field right now at middleweight. I think Spence is a junior middleweight and maybe collect some titles up there. Maybe they fight at 154. But if you ask me, the one question I can't answer is I don't believe that fight happens at Welter win anymore. I think Crawford's path to becoming undisputed is now defend your title against Rocha and the winner of Ortiz, Danny Onis is the first steps. And maybe a boots fight is the big fight for you at 147.

No, I agree. That's going to be a path. Like if he stays at 147, go collect all the belts that are going to become available once again. Because prior to 2022, I always said that if Crawford Spence ever happened, and I never believed they would, that it would happen in 154. Then when the negotiations happened, we all got home. It's like, oh, wow, this fight, you know, there's a pathway to it. So now I'm just, I'm just checked out with it. Like once Bud said, okay, I'm going to go fight for Uncle Des and, you know, take his $10 million. I was done with that. Okay, this fight is never going to happen, at least not at Walt's weight. I'm fine with that. You know, if Fence has his options, great. Go move on with your own career. I have my own theory about what's going to happen to him at 154. I do believe Charlo will probably let go of a belt because he's not going to sit there and just keep fighting mandatory as the rest of his career. But for Bud, there's still a pathway to him fighting undisputed. It's the scenic route and it'll probably, you know, be at the end of his career.

But again, it begins with, you know, having a relationship with Golden Boy, who probably has the most, you know, water weights that they can throw at him right now. That's what he should call the path to Undisputed Now, the Scenic Route. I like that. But Goldbush, put that in a press release called Goldboy signs Bud Crawford, the scenic route. It passes through Indio, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Indio.

Last thing for you guys, I'm going to raise a metaphorical glass for BLK Prime. Shout out BLK Prime. I don't know what your future is at the moment, but you had an interesting run. You showed us new ways to light money on fire with the Crawford fight against David Avenisian. And now you are out of the Adrian Broner business. Broner takes the social media and says he's a free agent once again. Zero fights into a three-fight contract that he claimed would be worth eight figures. And now Adrian Bruner is on the market once again.

Jake, I have no insight into why this has happened. I've made no calls on it. But like, do you have any clue as to why the Broner, BLK Prime relationship crumbled before it even started? Well, you're raising a glass. I'm going to spill one out. in death of PLK Prime. I'm pretty sure they're out of the business at this point. I have heard that they are most likely going to fold-up shot.

Maybe I'm dead wrong on that. I'm fine if I am. But I just, you know, I think they did try with good intention to go throw wood with this event. It just obviously didn't happen for a variety of reasons. I can't recall, like, so many opponents pulling out within such a short time frame or, you know, not being available. It was a horrible, you know, mixed from the start. I think they thought that with Broner, like, it would kind of catch fire. But it just didn't.

And ticket sales were horrible, even if that fight happened. So I just don't know what's next for Bruner. You know, the apology tour is very noticeable. Maybe he somehow works his way back with, you know, with PBC that they find a fight for him. They'll find opportunities for him. But yeah, it always seems to go that way. He talks junk. He gets a fight.

The fight doesn't happen. He talks more junk. And then it just, it's, I don't know if it's a love-hate relationship. But I don't know. I don't know if I'm sure we'll see Bronner in the ring at some point. I know they keep talking about him fighting possibly Connor Ben. It just feels like some type of circus atmosphere. He's talking about he wants to fight Regis Progray.

That's... Okay. Yeah, I don't think we'll ever see Adrian Broner in a meaningful fight ever again. I mean, it'll be a fight that'll catch attention, but, you know, something on the title level, I just don't see it happening. Corey, I know you are preparing an oral history on BLK Prime. What are your thoughts on the end of BLK Prime? My glass is empty, so I can neither toast nor pour one out. And I suspect that that's the reason why, you know, BLK Prime is coming to his demise.

You know, when you Google searched the offices of BLK Prime, they did not look like the location of a company that could fund regular multi-million dollar boxing events. So that's one thing. But when it comes to Adrian Broner, like, listen, like, I just hope that Adrian Bruner is okay. You know, like obviously this is a man who is deeply troubled, has been going through substance abuse issues, things outside of the ring. clearly, you know, his interviews are drastically different kind of day after day. And I just hope that he's all right. And I hope that there is still someone in his life and professionally that is going to look out for him. But, you know, he continues to be compelling enough, amusing enough to people and obviously

talented enough to continue to get opportunities. So whether he's in like a big, big fight again, I don't know. But yeah, honestly, I could see him facing Connor Ben, you know, because they're going to be a lot of people that don't want to face Connor Ben for the reasons that we all understand. But Broner, as someone that doesn't have a ton of options right now, or at least needs to create them, might be the type of fighter that would jump at something like that. It would make a fight for Connor Ben interesting to some. So I could see something like that happening. There will be opportunities for Adrian Broner. But for me, that's just secondary to just hoping that

this isn't a sport that does more harm to him than good. Yeah, I'm with you on hoping it works out for Adrian Bruner on a personal level. I remember just being, I went to his camp years ago before the Midana fight in Colorado Springs and spent a few days kind of learning his story from the people around him. And he's really overcome a lot to get to this point. It's, you know, you hope that he can get some semblance of a career back on track. That's number one. I do want to keep it light, though, for a moment.

Like, we've seen, in boxing, we have seen some creative ways to, just flushed money down the toilet. Like just burn it. Like whatever PBC did with all that Waddell and Reed money. Eddie Hearn going out there and signing like Tevin Farmer to multi-million dollar deals of the guys that he was putting on from 2018 up until 2020. Like boxing just gives you example after example of what it means to see money disappear in real time. B.L.K. Prime, at least in the short run, might take the cake. I mean,

guaranteeing Terrence Crawford 10 million for a fight that probably did like, I've heard anywhere from 25,000 or less, you know, for that pay-per-view, guaranteeing him all that much money, then giving Broder a deal. Then, I believe, Jake, you were the first one to post this. Like, whoever was on Facebook, like asking for an opponent to fight Atrium Broner, and by the way, offering $175,000, that's real money. Like, that's legitimate money to be an opponent for Adrian Brunner. I'm almost shocked that nobody was able to take it at this point. This was an incredible run.

Like, like, I, some, we need to call Ed Brophy at Catastota and like get, get BLK Prime somewhere in the Hall of Fame. Like, just get them somewhere. On Broner, I do think a Ben fight, I'm with you guys, makes sense. Ben's going to get back in the ring at some point. He can, he's not vindicated. He's not, you know, anything because of what the WB said. In fact, he's actually, correct me from wrong,

but he's disputing the WBC's findings. He said it wasn't eggs, it was bad testing, which is always that old chestnut of bad testing. But he knows, and Eddie Huron knows, the British boxing port of control is not going to fold the same way that WBC did. He's not going to get licensed anytime soon. But he can go over to the Middle East, and the Middle East is where some money is.

They might have enough money to pay Adrian Broner. And look, a Ben fight, quite frankly, I don't know if it's winnable for Adrian Bruner, but it's the most winnable high-profile fight that's going to be out there. Connor Ben's got power, but Adrian Brod's got a great chin. And Bruner's going to have an experience advantage. You can do some things in the ring. If he's right, and we don't know about that, but if he's right, Jake, that's the fight he can win.

And if he wins that fight, you know, that's an easy way to get your career back on track. It'll be at 147, you know, a weight that Broner is now probably officially at at the moment forever. But that, that to me is the, you know, if Broner, can find a way to swallow his pride and realize you're not going to get like four million dollars to do it. He should run towards that fight if at all possible. No, I agree 100%. I've always said to he's not going to allow himself to be like a stepping stone for prospects or guys who don't have any kind of profile whatsoever. And to Corey's point, like you want to know that the guy is going to be happy. I mean, he had to pull out of the Omaha for your old fight. He cited a mental health

issues. I mean, we know they're very real with him. So he seemed like he was a lot happier going into this camp. He looked like he was at least in shape, you know, had the fight happen. So So I'm not going to say the dedication is there and he's going to stay on course. But a fight like this, I think, would really get him going. It would probably have, you know, I know Eddie has the deal in Abu Dhabi, the championship series or whatever. So that's going to be probably Connor Ben's, you know, home base up until he can get licensed anywhere else in the world.

So there's real money there for Broner. I mean, he doesn't have to sit around and, you know, chase, you know, Facebook fights or whatever. So I think Adrian Brona could push it all in for that one. I don't know where it would lead to, but it's good enough to get him to the next step in his career. So it's a real payday. He doesn't have to go and fight like some 19 and 0 hungry prospect that just wants to use his name. And this is, by the way, this is why he still has options because even three people like us, we're on here and we started off kind of jovial

and then we were like, huh, but if he puts it all together, maybe he can win this fight, right? Because we've seen, you know, the Adrian Bruner of 10 years ago, like we've seen that electric talent, you know, and so I think we tend to do this with these kind of embattled but extremely talented athletes, just merely that conversation leading up to their next fight, their next performance is always enough curiosity to hook you, right? And he is always going to have that. So there will always be opportunities for him. And you're right, Jake. I think that he understandably thinks too highly of himself to ever allow himself to go that other path. He always needs to, if not be the A side, than the de facto A side. And there will still be opportunities for

that. They're still out there. I just want to know who the who's going to be the BLK Prime of 2023. Like who's coming in in the second half of this year with bold plans to take over boxing. Who's coming in with Marv Nation money who's coming in with BLK Prime money? Excuse me, who's going to win that next purse bid? Triller money. Like who's going to come in? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

Why does nobody in boxing realize this? Why is this so hard? to wrap your head around that just pumping money in to one A-side-ish fighter is not going to work. It's not going to work. You've got to be competitive. You've got to put on consistent events. It's almost like we're like in the mayor of crazy town here sometimes with boxing. Listen, I don't know who it's going to be, but whoever it is, my agent is Debbie Spander,

you need someone to call these guys. Oh, for love of God. Yeah, Corey, Corey, Corey will call something in Kazakhstan. I'll fly right over there and take care of it. Read Jake and Corey's stuff over at boxing scene.com. Follow them on social media. Great insight and intel into all things in the boxing world. Fellas, always great to catch up.

Looking forward to seeing you guys real soon. Any time. He'll that foot. Yes. Thanks, Chris. I appreciate you having you on. Looking forward to you being back off the engine list. And when we come back, my conversation with Stephen Espinoza.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced. games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream,

this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because, of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Stephen Espinoza is the president of Showtime Sports, Showtime boxing, has nine upcoming events over the next four months, including the big one, the one that Stephen so callously iced me out of April 22nd, Ryan Garcia, Tank Davis, catch-weight fight, mega-fight in Las Vegas. And Stephen joins me to talk about that and much more on the show. I feel like that was an appropriate intro, Stephen.

What do you think? I would expect nothing less, Chris. Let me ask you first then about Garcia and Tank. This was a fight that looked like it was done late last year. Predictably, some hiccups came up along the way. Over the last couple of months, were there points that you were legitimately concerned that this fight wouldn't get made? I would say no.

And really the reason why, because there are certainly points of disagreement. There are some things that I think were new points relatively late in the process, and that's always aggravating. But I think the reason why I wasn't concerned, I was optimistic and confident that it would get done the whole time is because of Tank and Ryan. And look, it's an oversimplification, but if we look at Spence Crawford, you know, that was proceeding. And then one guy decided to take an exit ramp and pursue another opportunity. It was clear throughout this process because both Tank and Ryan had various opportunities to go a different direction. And they had no interest in doing so. So as long as they stayed engaged and they remained committed, the rest of us had no point, but had no choice but to make it.

So as long as the fighters stay engaged and focused on it, then I knew everything else would work out. You know, both these guys have massive audiences, very diverse audiences, very different audiences. What kind of pay-per-view business are you expecting? I'm sure you're not going to put a number on it at this point. But are you looking at this as being the kind of show that could rival, say, Canelo Plant, which you did a couple of years ago? Is it something a little bit smaller scale? Like what kind of business are you expecting?

Yeah, I mean, if we look at Canelo plant, that has been sort of the high water mark of recent paper use. That 800 range, it's about what Fury Wilder 2 and 3 did, maybe a little bit less. Canello plant was riding on 800. So that seems to be sort of not necessarily the ceiling, but sort of the high water mark we've seen, I'd be thrilled with those numbers.

You know, this is Ryan's first time on pay-per-view. Tank's been on several times. I think why I'm optimistic, though, is if you make a list of the fighters who are known outside of the regular boxing fan, it's a pretty short list. But aside from Canelo, Ryan and Tank are probably top of that list,

you know, in terms of people who have, I track the attention of a group of an audience that doesn't pay attention to boxing all the time. So we're pulling not from our usual pool, but a much broader pool. So I think this could definitely be a breakout. But I also think that regardless of the outcome, both of these guys, this is the kind of fight where both of these guys end up bigger afterwards. And, you know, hopefully I expect something that's good enough that maybe we see it, you know, again later on down the line.

they're young enough to do that. Yeah, and that's frankly often the case where if two great fighters get in the ring, there's a winner, there's a loser, but there's rarely a real loser. Like you both gain something significant from an event like that. You guys at Showtime love the Scheduled Dump. Love the Schedule Dump. Here's our next 47 fights in the next four and a half months. As you look at this calendar, which has a sprinkling of pay-per-view,

sprinkling of Showtime, Championship boxing, show box cards on there as well. what do you like about this schedule? What is different or notable about the schedule? I think it's a couple of things. Obviously, we're going to a really, really busy period of, like you said, nine fights or nine events over, I think, an 11-week period, at some point eight weeks, eight live boxing events in a row over consecutive weekends. I think it's the depth because I think we have,

really made an effort to provide value, second fight down the card, third fight down the card. Sometimes we're opening the cards with title fights and meaningful title fights. So I think that's one thing we're proud of. The other thing we're proud of is sort of the, I think the variety. I mean, this represents, you know, the range of the sport from showbox to arguably one of the biggest, if not the biggest pay-per-view that can be made right now. So it's a little bit of everything. It's not heavily weighted, you know, pay-per-view or anything else.

I think, you know, there's a good spread of everything from young guys at 10 and O to your established stars. And we've got a lot of names that are just about to get finalized, but some of the bigger names aren't even on the schedule yet. The Spences, the Charlo's, the Morel, Ennis, you know, those will be coming pretty shortly. And then when you layer those on, it's going to be even bigger and better. So I think we know, you know, Ariel Spence, Keith Thurman, sort of dancing around each other for a little while, you know, we're waiting for Jermel Charlo to get past his injury issue to get back into the ring. Jamal Charlo is the most intriguing name kind of out there. He hasn't fought since June of 2021. He came back recently on social media and said, I'll be back this June, which would be right around the two-year anniversary of his last fight. are you expecting him to be added to the calendar before the end of June? And like what are realistic expectations for Jermal Charlo at this point being off this long?

I do expect him, you know, whether it's June or early July, I think somewhere in there makes sense. We're close to finalizing a fight. I mean, being completely candid, he has been up two years, an injury, some personal issues to be sorted out. he's anxious to get back in the ring. I think being complete candid, 160 isn't the deepest division. You know, there's very good talent at the top, but there's a gap once you get past the top names. I think, you know, I don't think it's fair to ask him coming up the injury and some time off

to take off the toughest opponent at the top of list. You know, it's clearly not going to be Adamas or someone like that. but I think it will be a credible fight, and I'd look to see a meaningful fight, maybe Adomis or something like that, as the next fight before the end of the year. Well, if he goes to 168, Stephen, there's a former two-division title holder

just hanging out in the BBC universe now, undefeated American trash talker, you know? Let's see, I'm checking my watch. What are we, seven minutes into the intro? This is a record. You waited seven minutes to bring up Demetri's Andre. I did. I've kind of, you know, he's just been so off for so long, too. I mean, these guys, they could just, they're so inactive. Just get back in there and fight each other.

Well, look, I, for once, I agree with you. For once. I agree. There's a backhanded compliment. That's right. So, you know, March, obviously, we've got a big fight with Benavita's plan. Conello seems to have other plans for the foreseeable future. You know, maybe secures the Bevo fight, the fall. Maybe he doesn't. Let's assume he's true to his word. he does that. Then the rest of the guys, look, you throw the names in the hat. Benavitas, Plant, Charlo, if he goes up there, Morrell, and Andre. You know, there's plenty of talent. There are plenty of good fights. I don't see why not only Andre, but everybody else in that pool

can't do high-level fights even without Canelo in the mix. Yeah, I think that actually is a great opportunity for somebody this year to separate and go into 2024 as the only choice for Connello to fight in May because like you said all that talent is there it's all under the same kind of umbrella you know benavides probably the most talented guy of the bunch plant though pretty accomplished andrate pretty accomplished if somebody comes out of that with like two quality wins there's going to be a mandate to face canelo next year one thing on on a potential fight you mentioned crawford it sure looks like as we taped this that he's trending towards some kind of deal with Golden Boy that involves Alexis Rocha, his mandatory.

Golden Boy also has Virgil Ortiz if he can beat Stanionis at the end of April. On the subject of Spence Crawford, if right now, 10 being you're overwhelmingly optimistic that that fight's going to happen, one being hell no, done, bury it six feet under, where are you right now on Spence against Crawford? As the next fight or ever? Ever, really. You know kind of the logistics. Ever, I would say six and a half.

Okay. I think it happens. I'm more optimistic than not that it does happen. I know there's still interest. I know there's still desire on the spent side. I believe Crawford when he says that he's interested as well. So as long as no one has given up and I don't think anybody has, there are certainly obstacles.

the rocha, the sanctioning body order being one of them. But I still, look, I'm not going to give up, not going to give up until either one of them or both of them are retired. Do you think Spence is done at 147? You know, it's difficult. I understand it's difficult for him to make the weight. It's not impossible. You can continue doing it.

I think the question is, okay. You know, Crawford, Thurman, and this, you know, those are all good opportunities at some point in the future. Beyond that, you know, I think it's as much as wanting a new challenge as it is just a difficulty with the wait. I want to ask you about some interboxing type of stuff. You know, PBC's got some interesting things happening right now. You've got Adrian Broner recently left the company. Deonti Wilder has declared himself an open agent, whatever exactly, that. That is, Andy Ruiz sort of did too, though he said he's no longer with Tom Brown, but still with Al Heyman.

I'm not sure what it's kind of a distinction without a difference. PBC is still a considerable presence, obviously, in boxing. You work closely with them, but they have a large stable of fighters. And now with Fox effectively out of boxing, one network, which is yours, to work with. What do you know about the direction PBC is taking and is planning on taking in the near future? Well, I think you can look at a lot of the schedule, which it's not exclusively PBC, but a lot of it is, and take a cue there. I mean, through the first six months of the year, we've got 14 live events on our count. That's as busy a six-month period as I can recall since I've been here in the last 12 years.

And that does not include, you know, possibly another fight or two being layered in in June. So look, I think they are going to remain active. You know, we're going to have to pick up some of the slack. I think you're seeing a lot of good fights streaming, some big names and other places, simply because, you know, there isn't necessarily room for everybody. And that, I think, is going to, if not necessarily force, it's going to result in some higher-level fights. You know, at this point, you know, the market. is such that it feels like there's a bit of a contraction going on a little bit, you know,

at least back from where we were three or four years ago, where we had four and sometimes five different platforms really active in the U.S. and domestic U.S. boxing. And that is pulled back a little bit. And I think, you know, with fewer outlets and to be spread across, I think, you know, some of these bigger flights are more likely to have. Is that you have a multi-year contract with PBC. Is this the final year of that contract? No, we extend beyond this year. Okay. Obviously, this schedule shows a pretty strong commitment to boxing from Showtime.

Everybody read about the restructuring over there, Paramount Plus, the emphasis more on streaming as everybody seems to be going in that direction. What, if any, impact, will that restructuring have on Showtime boxing? We've, you know, so far, you know, there's nothing that we heard that changes any of our plans. In fact, we've been told and given the green light to continue doing what we've been doing. And I think we've established ourselves as the market leader. And that's the plan to continue going forward. Obviously, there's a lot going on in the media industry. I think there's a larger correction in sort of the content business generally, as well as the greater macroeconomic

conditions. So, you know, we're susceptible to that like everybody else. The integration with Paramount, I think, is a result of two things. One, you know, continuing the merger that was started two years ago. And, you know, probably more directly, a consolidation. I think we went from a period of time where everyone was really excited about streaming. Now there's a million apps out there. And now I think it's going to start rebounding the other way. So I think consolidating within Paramount Plus makes sense.

I think, you know, Disney is probably the best. example of being able to maintain several brands within one app. And that's the move that's being done. And I think it's an opportunity for boxing as a sport in Showtime boxing. Because being packaged together, you know, side by side on the app and giving access to all the great sports audiences that are already on Paramount Plus and CBS from NFL through soccer through NCAA tournament. And I think that's a great marketing opportunity. I think we have an opportunity to better market the sport and maybe draw on some of that general sports audience. It won't surprise you, but I mean, in the last couple of months, I've heard from a number of different HBO people who said, wow, this reminds me of kind of what happened with us back in 2017 and 2018.

Do you see a difference, a specific difference in kind of what HBO went through that led to the elimination of boxing over there? and the restructuring that you're going through now? I could see how someone could draw that conclusion. I think the difference is I think what we saw HBO was not really a sudden end. It seemed to be a little prolonged. So it's sort of wound down over a period of two to three years. That's not what we're experiencing here. I think last year was one of our biggest years in terms of content spend,

and this year is going to be bigger than that. So from that perspective, no, we're not really winding down. Who knows what the future of the media business is and all that. But that is, that's something that is there every day. But in terms of this company itself, we haven't seen anything that hints to us that things are winding down. Do you think there's an obvious, I'm always fascinated by what is the future of boxing broadcasting, like where is it on what platform because like showtime right now going through its it's it's restructuring um the zone just had a price increase that was extremely significant uh ESPN still

putting on fights but ESPN also has to pay the NBA in a couple of years they have to pay UFC in a couple of years I don't know how that's going to affect their boxing programming um it just doesn't seem like you can point to something that absolutely positively works do you think there is something out there a model that absolutely positively works that can be sustainable, that can be successful, that can, you know, be something boxing can hold on to? I mean, it is a, it's a really great question and a question that I think that the true boxing Ben should be asking. We know that there have been challenges with ad supported, purely ad-supported boxing, and I think we can get a better job we should do and can do a better job attracting sponsors

to the sport. But that's one of the challenges. I think it's got to be a combination of a broad, potentially ad-based platform as well as subscription, because I don't think either one by itself is enough to support the entire sport. And I think you point out to another dynamic sort of implicitly, which is, you know, as all these other sports become exponentially more expensive at a time where there are economic, economic pressures. Some of the niche sports may be squeezed out. And that is a risk not just for boxing, but from everything else. The big sports riots are just continuing to explode and cost. Now, having said all of that, we've been here for nearly 40 years and we weathered a lot of storms, a lot of transitions

in the market. And I'd like to think, and we are confident in fact that we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. we figured out the transition to streaming. We're still a market leader. We'll continue to figure out and adjust as the market changes. Stephen, I appreciate your time, man. The Showtime schedule, pretty strong, all went through June. And I've got a bunch of more fights to announce over the next couple of months. And Sergio and I have decided we're going to do a pirate broadcast in the parking lot of Garcia Davis.

I can get you in the arena. I'm pretty sure I can handle that. No, no, we're going to do a post-fight interview with Sean Garcia afterwards. And we're going to do our own version with like a banner and a couple of folding chairs in the market. I know a guy Gary Davis that you could also interview if you'd like to do that. By the way, last thing, are you, no venue's been announced yet. I mean, Vegas has a lot of different options out there. Is there one more likely than another at the moment as we tape this on March 1st?

I think we're probably looking at the sort of default is MGMT Mobile and potentially. potentially legion. I would say just because of the size and demand of the fight, probably that would lean toward clearly T-Mobile or Legion. And we've had conversations with both. There are some challenges going to the football stadium as sort of novel and exciting as that would be. But I think it comes down to one of those two venues. Yeah, everybody kind of wants that football stadium experience. I'll say this. I know it's cool kind of from a television perspective. Like, you remember those Cowboy Stadium fights?

Like, they weren't very good. Like, people were watching the fight on the big screen and not, I mean, 55,000 is great. I mean, we just did. I was part of the one at AT&T Stadium, 76,000, but you're watching fights on a screen. You watch it's like you're on TV paying high price for beer sitting in your seat. Yeah, it's, you know, there are ups and downs. And, you know, in the reality, obviously, you know, once you get to the risers, you're much further away from the ring than you would be if you were in the risers.

arena, obviously. So there's some downsides. And those are all the kinds of things that are being discussed. Everything from the cost of being the arena, some of the upgrades that would be necessary because, look, AT&T Stadium, you've got the advantage of that huge center-hung scoreboard. Allegiant doesn't have those. They just have ends up. So you don't want to set up a scenario where everybody who's at the fight is constantly looking this way and that way, rather than, you know, you can with a center home. Now, there's obviously solutions, but those are the types of challenges that you encounter. Well, either way, it's going to be a massive event. Two guys that draw a big crowd. I'll do an interview with you. You can always get me, Chris. I'll go in the parking lot.

You come to the parking lot. I'll go to the tent. Stephen Nesson. It was good to talk to you, man. All right. You too, Chris. When we come back, this week's picks brought to you by Fanduel. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what y'all saying. Yep, that's me,

Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok. Podcast Network on TikTok.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jek.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, boxing fans, if you are a UFC fan as well, John Jones, he returns the Octagon this Saturday to face off against Cyril Gagne with the heavyweight championship on the line. And Fandul wants you to get into the action. Right now, new customers can get a no-swet first bet up to $1,000. That's $1,000 back in bonus bets if your first bet doesn't win.

Bet on who will win, how they will win, when the fight will. blend and so much more. So don't miss out on your chance for a no-swet first bet up to $1,000 when John Jones takes on Cyril Gane for the heavyweight title. Exclusively on Fandul, America's number one sportsbook. All right, we got back to our winning ways last week here with the gambling picks, all courtesy of our friends over at Fandul. Subriel Matias, in a short war, he beat Jeremiah's Ponce, by,

knockout. Those are the two picks that I made last week. So hope you bet with me. Hope you made some money. And let's keep this train rolling into next week. This week, I am locked into the 126 pound division. You've got Brandon Figueroa moving up for 122 pounds facing Mark McSayo, a former title holder in this way class. Maxio, he lost last time out to Ray Vargas, Figueroa coming up from 122. Figueroa is the favorite. And I know what some of you might be thinking. Didn't we just get into a little bit of trouble picking a fighter moving up and weight against the guy that's more established? That's what happened a few weeks ago with Ray Vargas and Oshackie Foster. I just think this is a little bit different.

I think Figueroa has the size and strength to compete at 126 where it's pretty clear Ray Vargas doesn't have that at 130. And I think Meg Sayo, even though he's a strong guy, you know, he faded kind of late against Gary Russell Jr. and I think he's vulnerable at this weight class. Figueroa is a minus 3.30 favorite, so not going to win a lot of money there, but I think that's a safe bet, Brandon Figueroa to win. Where you can win some money is Figueroa by points or decision. That's at plus 145. Take Figueroa by points.

He's got some pop, but I think at this weight class, Megsayo is going to be strong enough and have a good enough chin to go the distance with Brandon Figueroa. So those are my picks. Brandon Figueroa to win. and Brandon Figueroa by points or decision. All these picks, of course, brought to you by our friends over at Fanduil. That's it for this week's episode.

My thanks to Jake Donovan, Corey Erdman, and Stephen Espinoza for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest,

SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's. unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast, Superhuman, documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.