The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - The Rise and Fall of HBO Boxing

Episode Date: December 25, 2021

The demise of HBO has been a popular topic amongst boxing fans for some time. James Andrew Miller, who is one of the oral historians of our time did a deep dive in his new book on HBO, including the rise and fall of boxing at HBO. Jim talks about how HBO got into the boxing business, and how ultimately HBO quietly got out of the business. Later, Regis Prograis, the former 140 pound champion stops by and gives his thoughts on why not a lot of fighters have been willing to step up and to fight him. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The volume. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an Acapella band with their Between Songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. Boxing with Chris Manix is presented by Fandul Sportsbook. There's no better place to bet the action than on Fandual Sportsbook during the football season.

I bet on Fandul as often and as comfortably as I possibly can. It is America's number one sportsbook. It's easy to use. It's safe and secure. There are fast payouts in as quick as two hours. So many bet types. Same game parlay bets, live betting, player props, futures, and so much more. If you are new, just download the Fandual Sportsbook app to get started right now.

Sign up with the promo code Boxing so they know I sent you. This is boxing with Chris Manning. Oh, somebody punch him in the face. Anthony Joshua is a composed and ferocious finisher. Watch this. Andy Ruiz is the heavyweight champion. hosted by S.I.'s Chris Mannix. That was my moment.

Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. All right, welcome back to another episode of boxing with Chris Manix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network. We have an amazing show for you this week. The demise of HBO has been a popular topic amongst boxing fans for some time now.

James Andrew Miller, who is one of the great oral historians of our time, has written terrific books on ESPN, Saturday Night Live. He did a deep dive book on HBO, including the rise and fall of boxing at HBO. James joins me on the podcast to discuss that very topic, how HBO got into the business and how ultimately HBO quietly got out of the business.

A little bit later on, Regis Progray, the former 140-pound champion. He has been relatively quiet in 2021, as not a lot of fighters have been willing to step up and to fight him. I talk to Regis about that, about his new deal with the fledgling promotional outfit Probellum and what he hopes to accomplish in 2022. As always, best way to support this podcast, get over to Apple Podcast, post a comment, leave a rating. It's simple. It's easy. It's free. It's the best way to make sure that we keep doing this podcast week.

after week. That's it. All right, on to the show. All right, there is no greater writer of oral histories, among other things, than James Andrew Miller. He's the author of books like Powerhouse, live from New York. These guys have all the fun. His latest project is Tinderbox, HBO's ruthless pursuit of new frontiers, which you can pick up everywhere that you buy books. And Jim, I'm kind of to join me here on the show. Jim, let's just start. Before we get into the boxing part of this, which is obviously what I want to dive into. The name was interesting to me right off the bat. Why Tinderbox? Because I think that, you know, look, for the past 49 years, the different incarnations and different key inflection points in its history, HBO has been

flammable. It's been one of these things that not only ignites change within the network work itself. But I think within the television sector and the culture. And I think that that was the way that I was trying to make sure that people knew just how vast the impact was that HBO's had on everything. Yeah. HBO got into boxing, I believe, what, 1973 was their first year in the sport, something around there. As you were kind of doing your reporting, like how important was boxing for the early days of HBO? It was a big, big engine. I got to tell you, Chris, it was so important that, well, let's look at it from two points of view. First of all, as you know, much better than I, the broadcast networks had given up on boxing, right? Boxing is huge in the 40s

on radio and then the 50s television. There's something that happens to boxing in the 60s, whereby the network start to put it on in the afternoons when everybody's like mowing the lawn and at the swim club and the promoters are complaining and you know i mean obviously we have alley and fraser but it's it's like it doesn't have that patina that it had uh and so HBO comes along and is able to say to the promoters look we're going to put it in prime time we believe in boxing and so as a result boxing becomes one of the key reasons, in addition to uncut, uncensored movies, that people start subscribing to HBO in the 70s. And they start off with an incredible twosome.

Rumble in the Jungle and Thrull for Manila. I mean, come on. Like, you know, you don't have to be a huge expert in boxing to understand the importance of both of those. And I think they did a great job of marketing, off of those things. I mean, and by the way, Rumble in the Jungle

was one of the first things that Time, Inc., the corporate parent of HBO, you know, those guys, when they saw that, that fight on, on HBO,

they're like, hey, maybe this thing is worth something. Maybe this thing can last. And then HBO's around, the timing is perfect because you get, well,

not only do you get, I mean, Thrill Manila, but then very quickly, Hearns Hagler, you get, I mean, you get, you know, the life after Allie and you're just there. HBO is there in turn for a little guy named Mike Tyson.

So it's like a sugar raid Leonard. I mean, all these people come through HBO's gateway and it just blows up the sport again. Do you think it's surprised that the top executives at HBO just how big it became and how quickly it became such a big tent pole for what they do? Well, now you're talking about a different thing because now. now you're talking about eubris. And there were a lot of those guys at the company at the time who were like, damn right. I knew it.

Of course we knew. Sure. Yeah. And Michael Fuchs, who was fearless about spending money on sports, got Wimbledon coverage during the week for the first time ever. He spent like $62 million on Mike Tyson at a time when nobody really knew what he was, you know, what he was capable of. So I think they have every right to kind of be boastful about it, proud of it.

I mean, Hearns Hagler, you go through all those big, big fights. They knew what they had. And they really transformed the sport for a long time until pay-per-view came along. If you could sort of elaborate on that point, you mentioned what boxing did for HBO. What do you think HBO did for boxing? Well, there's a couple things. And again, you know, I feel weird telling you this because you know how much better than I. But here's here's one very easy thing to understand, which is that HBO didn't have commercials.

And so what's going on is you're able to stay in the ring between rounds. If you were watching ABC World World of Sports in the 70s, the bell rings, they can't wait to get to a commercial and start getting money. HBO's got nowhere to go. And so as a result, we're like staying in the ring. We're seeing what it's like to be in that stool. We're seeing them talk to them. We're seeing them cut them. We're seeing them all fix that up.

And the other thing that they did, because production accidents were really important to HBO, they stick the mic there. So as a result, there's like two or three major moments where HBO is picking up, like there's two plastic jars, two plastic drinking containers. and you hear the trainer say to somebody, hand me that one. No, not that one, the other one. Well, what the hell does that? I mean, you don't need a body temperature IQ to figure that one out.

And you hear strategy. You hear, you know, the trainers talking about the fighters like, you've got to do this or you got to do that. He's coming after you. It's a whole other dimension to the fight. And then the other thing I would say is that, you know, with 24-7, something that they really branded and people did afterwards, you get this whole run-up to the fight.

You know, they're not just all of a sudden bringing you a fight at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. Weeks before a fight starts, they're going to be, they're out there running with the, you know, with the challenger or with the champ, looking at the training, taking footage. I mean, it was funny because perhaps one of HBO's biggest fights, one of the great upsets in not only boxing history, but sports history, was Buster and Tyson, Buster Douglas and Tyson. And, you know, in the book, I interviewed the guy who was hanging out with Buster's camp and Buster in the days before the fight. And so he's supposed to go shoot and do some roadwork with him, right? Well, Buster's so out of shape.

He's so upset about his mom. He's so not into this fight. And so it's like he runs for like, you know, 50 yards or something, you know, the guy tells the story. And he just says, forget it after they're done shooting. He stops training, you know, and it's like Dave Harmon, who's a wonderful boxing producer. And he said, you know, look, I just didn't have a lot of faith in this guy after that, you know. And lo and behold, though, you know, of course, it was a great surprise. I work with Dave Harmon now.

He does some stuff over at the zone now and, of course, a couple other places as well. He's tremendous. He is the best. You're right, though. these vehicles and these production points that we kind of take for granted now, like HBO really pioneered them, didn't they? Whether it is all the stuff in the corner that now you listen to captivated, like you're just, you're locked in on that stuff.

And I mean, I wonder if they knew just how big 24-7 was going to become. I think a lot of that's do with Floyd Mayweather, who was the character that kind of, you know, that that was built on in a way. but I mean that that's something that's become universally adopted by every network that does boxing. Yeah, absolutely. I think they, I think that part of it was they had the time and they had the interest. I mean, the interest was genuine because remember, you don't have like sponsors saying to you like Bud Light or something, hey, if you do a couple hours beforehand, we'll sponsor it or whatever. It's a real meritocracy. And they had genuine interest in it and they had genuine love of it. But I also think one of the other things that happens is you start to see with HBO and boxing big questions.

Like for instance, when Don King and Mike Tyson did their deal, their renewal for HBO, Seth Abraham got on the executive at HBO, got on the phone with them and said congratulations. And Tyson and King were like, yeah, and you know, the best thing about this deal is we don't have to put up with Larry Merchant anymore. And, Seth goes, well, what do you mean by that? And Tyson says to Seth, well, you know, Don told me that in the new deal, we don't, you know, Larry Merchant's not going to cover any of my fights. I don't have to talk to it anymore. And Seth goes, hold on a minute, buddy. That's not in the deal. And Don, of course, who, you know, kind of thought it was, but it wasn't written in the deal.

He said, well, wait a second. I thought we were. They wind up literally going to Showtime over this. And so you see HBO standing up for Larry Merchant and the journalistic DNA of sports coverage in a way that a lot of other places wouldn't have done. I mean, I'm not trying to be a kiss-ass here. You do have to admire it. And I think all these things coming up like that are really important. Look, at one point, you know this.

I mean, there are how many heavyweight belts, how many different kinds of, they lost. They lost control, the sport lost control of itself. And so what HBO did with Don King and others is they said, look, let's make it a unification bout. Let's make this a real playoff, so to speak, amongst champions. So we get to one champion, one true champion. And, you know, I mean, I think that those, that ability to really transfer, transport the sport to a different level and a more accessible level, pretty big time.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I remember that about HBO and Larry Merchant, Don King and that. And I do admire that because I think it's a responsibility of a network to tell the truth as often as it can, not, you know, kind of be a vehicle for, you know, just people to make stuff up and propaganda, if you will. You must have enjoyed a lot of these conversations. Like the most fun I've had reporting stories have been kind of profiles on boxing people. Like I wrote one of Bob Aram probably eight, nine years ago now. And I vividly remember kind of getting three quarters of the way through it and realizing somewhere along the way, I was writing that Bob Aram solved apartheid in South Africa, like basically along those lines. Like when you look back at the reporting that you did there, are there stories that just kind of make you laugh out loud that just you sit there?

You're like, I mean, that's just, that's only in boxing. Can that can stories like that exist? It allowed me, you know, BSSI to vicariously get a sense of what you do for a living. I mean, you know, you're in this world and you get to hang out in this world and you know the players. I parachuted in. But man, oh man, like, I'm on the phone with Bob Aram. And this guy, I mean, you know, one of the real definitions of power is when like somebody doesn't say to you, by the way, this is off the record or I got to tell you this on background. This guy is just, what, me worry?

I mean, he's like, I mean, King of the Hill, he doesn't have to worry about offending anybody. He's just going to tell it exactly the truth and how he sees it. And I think that that's powerful. And you get into the layers of subculture into the boxing world. I mean, look, there was a lot of financial stuff that I had reported on. and I was making Excel spreadsheets and wait a second, there's some money missing over here and how does this happen?

But you know what? I cut a lot of it out because at some point it becomes too Byzantine and too detailed and not connected enough to the actual history of HBO. But I have to say that for decades, boxing was a critical artery of HBO and they managed it beautifully. Showtime came along, very aggressive.

stole some thunder for them. And then everybody had to contend with, you know, what you obviously have written about and reported it on for some, which is, you know, the sport fundamentally changed. Definitely did. I want to ask you about that. On Showtime, like when Showtime came into the business, what impact did that have on HBO boxing? Initially, not much because HBO had such a formidable financial advantage. And they had relationships and they had long-term deals. And even when Showtime wasn't a threat, HBO was paranoid enough to make some really big significant contracts with people.

And I also feel like, you know, they had pretty good relationships. They did not burn a lot of bridges. But then Showtime, look, part of that, change was because of the Larry merchant deal. So sometimes allowed, enabled them to get Tyson and Don King. And when you get Don King, you get some other Don King fighters. And, you know, it becomes difficult. Look, what Ross Greenberg went through was Mandy Pacchio. I could have written 1,200 pages. I mean, that's a ground war in Southeast Asia. And it's not for the faint of heart. But at the same time, you start to see that the leverage that HBO had over the sport was eroding.

And so when it becomes a more level playing field, then Showtime has incredible opportunities. When did you, when did that leverage start to erode? Was it just when Showtime started to invest more in it? Was it the proliferation of other networks getting into boxing? Was there kind of a point where a specific point where HBO kind of lost the power it held? Yeah, you know, it's funny, Chris, because I had an index card on my bulletin board with that exact question. I needed to answer it. I'm going to do a book of record about the history of HBO and really get into HBO sports.

I needed to answer that question. The biggest thing I can say is that pay-per-view was like a grenade that just. one off in side boxing because as a result, you didn't have that ability to kind of control the sport the way you used to. And I think a lot of promoters were very eager to get some of that pay-per-view dollars for themselves and for their fighters. And so as a result, I mean, HBO had TKO and it was important. And people like Lou DeBella and Mark Taffa were doing incredible enterprising things at HBO sports. But it just was never the same like it was in the late 70s and early 80s.

You know, I mean, Friday night fights. I mean, look, ESPN went through a lot of this as well. But I think that it became harder and harder for the public to understand the sport and for there to be personalities. I mean, Mayweather was a gift, Pacchio, obviously. But there just weren't those Marvin hanglers and Thomas Hearns of the world. and, you know, Sugar Ray Leonard and Tyson, of course, I think a lot of the sport was built on those personalities

and you lose them sometimes. Yeah, no, there's no doubt about that. I think this century has seen the diminishing of a lot of personalities, many personalities in boxing. You mentioned Larry Merchant. HBO effectively created Jim Lampley in a lot of ways. I mean, he was doing things before. He was the first ever sideline reporter

on football broadcasts. But when you were kind of addressing that part of it, like what, like Lampley's rise as the face of boxing, what did you kind of discover? I got to tell you, you know, I'm blown away by Jim Wampley. He, this is a guy who, you know, those people that can remember every day their life. It's like this weird mental thing. Well, Lampley's not like that about his life,

but he's like that about boxing. Like I would talk to him. I would call him. He would be talking. All of a sudden I mentioned a fight. He'd say, oh, yeah. He would give the date of the fight. Then he'd say, like, yeah.

And in the fourth round, he had a left hook that really, it's like, what the hell? Oh, my God. The guy's memory, the guy's encyclopedic knowledge, his love of the sport and his level of detail in terms of what he examined about the sport, the fighters, the promoters, the trainers. everybody. I mean, it's just incredible. And I think that HBO was, you can't talk about HBO's position in boxing without talking about how amazing Jim Lampley was. Why was he so good in that role? He's a talented broadcast, no doubt. He'd have success in any medium. But he just seemed to, it was round peg, round hole when it came to Jim Lampley in boxing. Yeah, I think that's true. I think that he had, look, he has, in addition to his incredible mind and insight into the sport,

he has, dare I say, a rather beautiful way of marrying what's actually happening in the ring with a larger context, which is the personality of this guy, the dynamic between the two fighters, the Shakespearean drama that's lurking beneath it all. And, I mean, he's so well spoken. And he's so incredibly vivid in his descriptions of things that you just get a level of detail and verisimilitude on a fight that Lampley is a part of that you just don't get anyplace else. And I think that that, I mean, he certainly was worth every single penny they paid him and probably more and probably more. And it was, you know, for me, when lamps went, you know, off the grid, so to speak, at HBO and HBO boxing, it was a real loss because he was just, he was just as important to that night as the two fighters. You know, you couldn't wait to see him.

He set the table at the beginning. And the other thing was, again, like we were talking about commercials, after the fights over, the networks would be running to a commercial. after the flight's over at HBO, you go to the center of the ring. And Merchant and Lampley are there. And Merchant may be doing his crazy thing with, you know, who knows who. But, like, Aunt Lampley is there. And he is deconstructing that fight in a way with a scapple. I mean, he is exacting in his analysis of it.

And it's a pretty, it's pretty formidable. And you really can't find a lot of people who can do that back then like he did. They built some talented boxers over the years, but I say this as a broadcaster as well, but their broadcasting crew was excellent, whether it was Lampley all throughout Larry for many years, Max taken over. I thought Emmanuel Stewart turned into one of, in addition to me, one of the great trainers of all time became, I thought, one of the great broadcasters of all time. I mean, he was tremendous.

I don't know how much you got into his life and time at HBO, but I thought he, you know, before his passing, had, he was probably as good. broadcasters who was a trainer at that point. Well, I think the other thing that that shows, I agree with you. And I think the other thing that shows is that HBO was constantly trying to figure out new ways to cover the sport and new ways to create a narrative for the sport, both for the fight and for the larger context of boxing. I think they really cared about boxing as an institution, not just, you know, okay, let's throw this fight on. They were a big part of it. Um, Some might argue too big a part of it.

But I think their dedication and loyalty to sport was particularly in the late 70s and the 80s and early 90s was without beer. No question. Before I let you go, we talked about the beginning of HBO, the middle of HBO. The end was, for lack of a better word, kind of sad, where they were relatively inactive over the last couple of years. and they kind of quietly go off the air in December of 2018. What did you learn about kind of the end of HBO and what prompted them to get out of the business? Well, you know, the current leadership at HBO will,

is always correcting me because HBO sports technically hasn't died. There's real sports, there's hard knocks, and there's still HBO sports documentaries. But I think that the HBO that you and I, grew up around. I think that we started to see the warning signs at the end of last century because they had Wimbledon, they gave up Wimbledon, which was really painful for the employees of HBO sports. We talked about what happened with boxing. And they didn't have, look, when you're spending $140 million on Band of Brothers and, you know, a season of Sopranos, let alone Game of Thrones,

my gosh, the most expensive series HBO has ever done. When you're spending, you're spending, spending that kind of money on original programming, you just don't have the money to go after the acquisitions to have a portfolio of rights that HBO used to have. I mean, thank God, HBO was able to get the rights that it did early in its history when the competition wasn't as fierce and the price types weren't so high. But you can kind of start to see in 2000 the fact is a lot of this money is going to be shifting over to original programming. It's not. not going to be a priority for us. And, you know, as a result, I think you use the right word.

I've said it myself, and I think it's the subtext and what I write about it. It was sad to see it go because HBO Sports was a big deal. It was a unique creature. It wasn't as vast as ESPN. It wasn't as vast as ABC World War II. You know, they had a page from their playbook stolen from them about sports documentaries by 30 for 30. but you still kind of like wanted it around you know you still wanted to see what they would come up with and so they have a much more limited agenda right now they don't have the lamplies of the world

they don't have the tyson's other world they don't have you know a lot of things that they used to have um so it's you know it just and sometimes progress sucks because you know it's just like you want those old days of innocence where, you know, they were like literally when HBO covered Wimbledon, Chris, they put the tapes on the freaking Concord to get it back in time so they could show it before anybody else. We had like coverage of weekdays at Wimbledon. I mean, I don't know, not to sound like, you know, somebody's nostalgic, but I miss those days. I kind of do as well. And if HBO boxing has a legacy, it's that, I mean, everything they did was taken and adopted by somebody else, you know, whether it is the 24-7 vehicle, all the stuff

they did in the corners. You mentioned the documentaries. Inside the NFL. Inside the NFL was, I mean, look, no offense against Sunday countdown and all these other shows that are, you know, ubiquitous now. But they, you know, they had that before anybody else. And that was, you know, that was a big deal. It's one of their longest running shows. In fact, Dave Harmon worked on it. His father worked on it. it was, you know, appointment television for a lot of football fans. And when that went away, that was also a heartbreaker. Well, Dave Harmon, an avid listener to this podcast, so he'll be happy to know that you approved of his work there.

Well, he deserves it all, man. He does. The book is Tinderbox, HBO's ruthless pursuit of new frontiers. We only covered a fraction of what's in there. Jim, tremendous stuff. Always great to catch up with you. And thanks for joining me. Thank you, man.

Thank you. Thanks a lot. When we come back, my conversation with Regis Probe. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hart Radio app. podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Cliverts Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or we're you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jette. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went

down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode, with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Keer Games.

And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch.

Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now.

What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination. Our sense of wonder. And our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this,

we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you. and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest.

It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world.

Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think.

Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. He's making a list. He's checking it twice. He's giving away up to 7 million in gifts over 7 days on Fandul. That's right. Santa Barclay is back and Charles Barkley is giving away more than ever this holiday season through Fandual Sportsbook.

New and existing users open the Fandul Sportsbook app every day between December 21st and December 27th for a new gift from St. Chuck. There's a lot of things to love about the Fandual Sportsbook app that the same game parlay is you can build out your local Christmas Day schedule. Daily odds boost. You can look at the Christmas Day games in the NBA, which I'm sure are going to be wild because of the way that COVID has impacted this season. FanDuel is America's number one sports book for a reason.

It is safe. It is easy to use. And you can get your money out in as little as two hours. New to Fandul's sportsbook, just sign up with the promo code boxing to get your first bet risk-free up to $1,000 and make every moment more holiday season. That's promo code boxing. Don't forget to check the Fandul's Sportsbook app every day between December 21st and the 27th to see what Santa Barclay brought to you. All right, I'm here with a guy that is literally willing to fight anybody. Regis Pro Gray, former 140-pound title champion.

We were talking just before we started recording, Regis, about how anytime there's a big fight available, guys, between 140, 147, you've got your hand up on social media. Whoever needs to hear it, you've told them you are ready to fight. Yes, I'm ready to fight anybody. You know, I'm always training. You can't see my people can't, you can't listen to my voice, but you can't see my face. But I have a little stuff on my nose right now because I sparred on Thursday. So I'm always training, always in the gym, always ready. And, yeah, it's just frustrating, you know, because I'm, I had so many, all these big fights, you know, come up, but it just never, like, came to fruition, basically.

You know, it was the Mikey Garcia. That fell through. Adrian Brunner, Giovanni Davis, Mario Barrios, you know, all those fights, you know, was, my name was supposed to, like, was thrown around, and nothing ever happened. So it's just like, it's just kind of disfustrated from me. You know, we were talking about you during the Mikey Garcia fight, when he lost to Sando-Martine, where he wasn't in great. shape for that fight. He didn't take Sando Martinez serious, I think as he should have. What were you thinking, kind of watching the guy

that you were close to having a deal with and probably, maybe still, we'll have a fight against, going and losing like that? It was very frustrating because, I mean, I know listen, I know Mike, you know, me and Mikey was on FaceTime together. We was like, he was saying he wants to fight me, you know,

but of course you wanted to get his tune up and that's why he fought the left-hander in Martin, but then he ended up losing. And so it was just like, I think for me, I was the biggest loser that night. I would agree. I think that I was the biggest loser for sure because, you know, I definitely think that I would have destroyed Mike that night for sure.

You know, Mike, I think Mike is a great fighter, but that night he just, he looked shot, you know, and you don't know if that's going to be him for the rest of his career, or is it just that night? Because, you know, sometimes in boxing, you know, people will say, that's it. That fight is done. That's it. you know because sometimes people that's just how it is in boxing it's a cruel sport but a lot of greats came back my favorite Friday ever is Duran and he kept doing he kept coming back even like

sugar ray linda they kept coming back you know so maybe Mikey can come back or maybe he is done we don't you know we'll see in his next fight and what his next move is going to be at what point during that fight are you saying like holy shit something is happening here because i remember watching earlier i'm like all right martin's having some success he had to be he had to keep moving and i wasn't sure if he's going to be able to do that over 10 rounds. But at what point are you watching going, you know, this could go the wrong way for Mikey Garcia? Probably about the seven round because it just looked like, you know, because, you know,

Mikey is kind of a slow starter and he fights like that, but it just looked like his timing was just off, you know, like because in a lot of his fights, you know, he is a slow start and he tries to time you with that big right hand, but he was throwing it and he just could not land it. He couldn't get it. And about the seven rounds, like, I don't think he needed a knockout. I think I heard y'all and he said he needs a knockout. And it was like, I think he hit him with probably one of the,

maybe in a seven or eight round he hit him with like a right hand that was kind of hard. But in Santa Martin, it was fine. And I said, you know, that's, he's probably not going to knock him out. You know, probably going to lose. What do you, I find it interesting that a corner doesn't always tell the fighter that. Like they don't offer that sense of urgency. Robert Garcia wasn't telling Mikey he needed a knockout going into that last round. just recently, Tea Fima Lopez Sr.

seemed to believe that his son was winning most of the rounds against George Camposus. Like, do you want, as a fighter, do you want your corner to be brutally honest with you going to those last couple of rounds where you say, look, you got to either knock this guy down or knock this guy out to win? I mean, you know, it all depends on the fighter. You know, everybody's corner is different because sometimes it, like it does. It all depends on that fight, how that fighter responds because everybody does respond differently. But I would, for me, I would think so. I would need, like, you know, a fire under my ass. If I'm losing, like, tell me, you know, like, because, you know, my, the only fight that I lost for me is the Josh Taylor fight.

And, you know, like, my trainer, he was like, man, you need to wake up. One of my trainers, he was like, you need to wake up, but he told me kind of late in the fight, you know, and I wish they would have told me, like, earlier, like, what are you doing? Like, like, wake up and do something. So for me, honestly, in my personal opinion, I think that, you know, they should, you know, light a fight a fight. under your ass and you know stay wake up how many times are different how many times do you watch that fight back i watched about three or four times me and josh the me and jose tila it was a very very very it was it was a very close fight very competitive fight listen i thought i mean i'm definitely happy for josh tell you know for me i'm not like a hater and you know i wish bad upon people man

josh taylor you know that was his night that night and i just came to realize that that was his night it was just it was him it was his country it was his night that was him. But after the 12th round, I really thought I won. I'm not going to lie. I just, it's just something I felt. I mean, was you at the fight? No, no. So in London that night, like, when that 12 round, when that 12 round was over, I like went and screaming to the crowd, like, I won that fight. And I really thought I won. I really thought I won. But, you know, he got it. And I'm happy for him. He became undisputed. And I think he is the only undisputed champion in the history of Scotland. So I'm, like, I'm happy for him, man. I'm definitely happy for him. He, you know, he's, you

He's doing his thing. So what have the last six months been like for you? You were active back in April. You beat Ivan Redcatch. Since then, you've cut a deal with Probellum. You've been looking for those big fights. What have the last six months been like? Personally, a boxing.

Well, we can do both. Personally, great, man. Life is, like, amazing for me. I'm not going to lie. Life is amazing. On the personal side, boxing side, you know, I just don't have a fight. That's the main thing, you know, but I'm always training. You know, the main thing I do, I'm with my family when I'm at home,

and I just train. And, you know, I travel just all. Of course, I just travel a lot. I do a lot of traveling all the time, going to different countries, just everywhere. But personally, like, life has been amazing to me. But, of course, on the boxing side, I just want to get a fight. That's the thing. I just train, train, train, just, I want to just get better.

That's the thing I just want to get better and keep getting better and just keep improving, getting stronger. And I feel like, you know, next time I fight I'm going to be, you're going to see like a, just, I won't say different, but just more improved because I'm constantly, I'm constantly like studying things to get better and do things to get better and getting stronger and just just working. So Probellum is a new outfit that not a lot of people know too much about.

Richard Schaefer, people are familiar with, is operating that company. Take me behind the decision to sign with them. What kind of promises were made to you and what are you expecting out of them? All right. So the first promise is that I'm going to fight three times, you know, in a year, right?

So 12 months, you know, I'll fight three times. So that's what I want to be. I want to be active. That's the thing. Of course, we still waiting on that first fight, but I definitely, what I want to be is active. The second thing is that I will fight all around the world. And that's something I always wanted. I never just wanted to fight.

That's why, you know, one of the reasons I took the fight in London because I want to go over there, you know. I shouldn't have, but, you know, I want for me, you know, I want to fight all over the world. I want to be a world champion. You know, my heroes was like Sugar Ray Roberts, my house. I'm not league. There was world champion. World champion. Fight all over the world.

Not just in your country. You know, so that's what I want to be. And then they told me I'll probably fight for a title. And, of course, that's three things that I want. Be a world champion. Again, a two-time world champion. Fight all over the world. And stay active.

And you told me I could do all those three things. It's a no-brainer. I agree with you on fighting all over the world. I mean, some of the things I've heard about, George Cambosis has the lightweight titles. It means somebody's going to have to fight in a lot of it. Australia, you should want to fight in Australia. Exactly. I mean, 80,000 fans in a stadium to fight for an undisputed championship.

Like, if I'm at 1.35, I'm embracing that opportunity. I want a piece of that. Yeah, exactly. That's what I think, man. World champion means fight all over the world. Don't just fight in your hometown. Don't just fight. You know, it's cool to do that. But for me, I like to, that's what I want to. I want to fight all over the world. I want to be all over. I like to travel, like, fiend. I love to travel. I love to see different cultures. So if I can go and fight all over the world and meet. these people. That's what I want to do.

So sometimes, oftentimes, in boxing, politics get involved in stopping fights. What's your understanding of being affiliated with Probelem? Who will they work with? What kind of fights can they make? I mean, how confident are you that the politics of boxing won't get in the way of

you getting a big fight? Well, I think that's one of the things in the country. If one of those, if a big fight presents itself, then you know, I'm allowed. I can go ahead do that. But for me, just being, And hopefully they can make, you know, they can keep the promise of me fight for a world title. If I'm a war, once I'm a world champion again, then I can kind of dictate things.

I can kind of control things. You know, it won't be, it won't be too much politics. But right now, you know, I don't have, the power is much because I'm not a world champion. But once I'm a world champion again, you know, then people will be coming up. So a world champion, but at what way class? You've been hovering 140. So you're confident because for a while there, you were talking about progressively moving up to 147 yes I was um but it's just something I want to do I want to be a world champion at 140 again

and I'm not gonna lie man I um you know the first fight back after that you know I miss weight second fight it was higher and I miss weight again so I was like I didn't know if I can make 140 you know so what I did luckily I did have all this time off so what I did I hired a nutrition I did a mock camp or two-week mock camp hired a nutritionist he came in from Canada and he just I did everything. I mean, I didn't cheat. I didn't put one piece of salt in my body that he didn't tell me do. I did everything he told me do.

I made the weight fine, perfectly. The best I ever felt, felt strong. And now at 140, and now I know I can stay at 40 right now. I mean, hiring those nutritionists, I know they're expensive and it's tough to reach into your pocket for that stuff, but they seem to work. Like, I talk to Sergio Moore all the time about how his career kind of went a little sideways when he gave up his nutrition.

He was paying nutrition as like 10,000 a month or something like that back in the day. And he said it worked. It helped them win a world title against Vernon Forest. But you go away from it. And the same thing with Teofima Lopez. Like he, you know, cut ties with perfecting athletes, people. And, I mean, it's got to be, it's important not just to make weight, right, but to make it the right way. Yeah, it's definitely important to make it the right way.

They're very, you know, it's a two-way street because they're all expensive. Yeah. Very, very, very expensive. But you're investing in yourself. You're investing in yourself and you need it. And that's what I did. I invested myself. And I know that I need that.

Because once you're at a point like I'm getting older now, you know, so I know when, when I was younger and I did, the thing is I did things wrong my whole career. As far as nutrition-wise, I did things wrong my whole career. All we did, we sat in a sauna. And I remember when I was, when I was like in my 20s, I was sitting in a sauna for like an hour. I would do like 100 burpees in the sauna push-ups, all that type of stuff. And I just can do it. And now, I mean, I can sit in the sauna 20 minutes.

It's like, I'm ready to do it. Like, I'm going through hell. I'm ready to get out. And so, you know, and we were still doing that stuff. Me and my trainer, you know, it's old school. So we were still doing all that type of stuff, sitting in a sauna and killing myself. So now I say, you know what, I need a nutrition. And the top people, they have, you have to have a nutrition.

It's just, it's something you have to have. And so that's what I did. I invested in myself, I nutritionist. And, yeah, now I know, now I know I can make the way. And it's all documented. It's all scientific right now. It's all he does, he did all my measurements, he did everything, he still has it all in his books. And so now we know exactly how.

And I did it. When I did it, I don't know if you saw it when I was with Duran. I was with Duran, New Orleans. So that was right before, I was with Duran New Orleans on a Friday. The nutritionist came to Texas on Sunday. So I was in New Orleans eating and doing all that stuff and getting a little fat. And still the nutritionist came Sunday and I made the weight that next Thursday. So it just tell you how good he was.

Like, I mean, just how good nutrition is, period, with the science. What was it like spending time with Duran? It was surreal. That's my fairfights. Him and Mike Tyson are my two fairfries of all time. And I'm like, and he was like, really? You know, sometimes you meet people like your idols, and they kind of disappoint you. And he didn't at all.

Like, everything was, it was like perfect because he was just like, oh, man. He reminded me in my grandpa. He was like, oh, man, he say all kinds of inappropriate stuff. Like, he doesn't hold his tongue back at all. would say anything and so his daughter irishel she was the i shout out to irishel she was the one like kind of like kind of like turning red and stuff she's blushing because he's saying all kinds of stuff he don't care what he he he just has no filter he just doesn't care what he's saying about girls women food just sex drugs he don't care about what he says and so she she's like oh i don't want

repeat that and you know but it was just and so another thing that was like really like funny it's scary too about that situation because Duran is like 70 something years old and he walks he walks like an old man like a 70 year old and so we went first we went to eat and then after that we went to the boxing gym and he got to the boxing gym and he got in his stands he like transformed

and that was like and me and him was like playing around and stuff and he still is like it was just like riding a bike for him and he said he all that's his favorite thing he kept saying the boxing is easy boxing is easy and you can tell it really was and his everything was hard like his body was hard

like we was me and he was like kind of shadow boxing playing around and all this his forms his muscles his body his head his neck all that stuff was like still kind of solid for like an old man I'm like damn like just imagine like when he was in his like in his

career like how good like how scary he could be and you know I looked in a lot of people's eyes when I looked in his eyes it felt like I was looking like it was fucking scared for real. Did you, like spending that time with him, did you take anything away that you think will help you as a boxer moving forward?

Yes, definitely for sure. He was showing me like how to hit the bag a little bit, and he was showing me like inside, a lot of inside fight. I like the fight on the inside a lot. I like the fight basically. And like, Duran is somebody that I watch, probably more than anybody ever watched. Between Duran and Pernel, I watched them more to anybody. And just like, he was just showing me like how he plays with the hands, like how he wrestles a little bit. on the inside and I hear like play with your hands and pick it off that was just something I went

immediately I went back to Texas I was like I'm working I want to learn how to work on that because it was and and you look at somebody did a so of course somebody saw that and somebody did a video and they put they compared it when he was young in his career how they did it and they they put the video with me and him and they say how he was doing it and it was like damn like this is like this is you know it'll really work that's badass yeah it was pretty bad yeah it really was and I'm glad I got to know them. I'm real cool with his daughter and I, I Rochelle, his two sons. They want me to come to Panama with him.

He wants me to come to Panama. I spend time with him. So I'm definitely going to, as soon as I get a fight date, I'm a fight, and then, you know, I'm going to go to Panama. That's another guy knows a little something about kind of, you know, you got to keep a disciplined lifestyle. I mean, I bet if you ask him, you know, going back to those days, if he had done things a little bit differently, maybe he beats Ray the second time or maybe he gets Ray the second time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he, he, he, he, he, he lived it up. He lived it up. Yeah, he lived it up.

He still was like. great like for me like grand maybe you might disagree with me maybe other people for me Duran is the greatest living fighter on this planet okay all right I think he's the great I can say four greatest living fighters on this planet right now

is um Duran sugar Rale Linnett probably Floyd and Pactout for me in that order I think that's the greatest living fighters because of course Ray Robinson is there sure Ali is there you know but living fighters

I think Duran might be the great Okay, but as a boxer, why do you put him ahead of Ray and Floyd and Manning? Just because his skill-wise, skill-wise, for me, I feel like he would be all of. I mean, he beat Ray, you know, the first time, and that's when, you know, he was on. And, of course, they got, you know, we got the no-mahs and all that stuff. But, you know, for me, I think, skill-wise, I think he was better than Ray. I think he, and I think he would be Floyd, and I think he would be Mani Pack, y'all. So, yeah, I think for me, in my personal opinion, I think,

like, Brand. Like, it's just his skill, man, like, because he can, he could do so much.

Like, he was a, he was a mean, he was a killer. Um, he could fire on the outside. He could fire on the inside. He could do so much.

And he just knew boxing. And for me, that's, for me, Duran is like the greatest living fighter right now. I mean, they fought so many good fights back in those days, those four kings,

just back and forth, back and forth. Yeah. That's when boxing was at its best when guys were just going at it with each other. Exactly. They fought, they all fought like,

actually, you know, they kept fighting like really, really good fights. It wasn't picking. It wasn't all that. It was like really good fights. And how he just came back. You know, he was considered he was done.

And he came back. He beat David Moore. And then he beat, um, his name, the big one. I ran Barclay. And it was like, like,

like, if you look at that fight and look how small Durant was. Yeah. How big Barclay was. And he beat him. He didn't, at first when Durant was at 1.35, it was like mostly,

it was some boxing, but it was brute. He was just strong. than everybody. And he went up and fought Barkley and he was, it was skill. You know, it was finesse. It was skill. He wasn't stronger than Bulkley. It was skill. And that's why I think he's the, you know, greatest living fighter right now. So you aim to be a title holder next year. Josh Taylor's going to fight probably in February against Jack Catterall. Are you kind of anticipating him moving up after that and those titles becoming vacant? Or how do you, how do you kind of view the

140-pound landscape and your path to getting a title? I think he, I think from what I heard pretty much that he'll probably go up and those types will be vacant. And then I'll probably, you know, grab a belt or two or something like that and then, you know, probably go up to 47 and fight Josh again. 140 could get really interesting in the next year and a half because you get all these guys at 135. Teafima already said he's moving up. I would anticipate Devin Haney at some point moving up. Maybe Ryan Garcia moves up.

We know Tank is, is been fluctuating between weights over the last couple of fights. It's probably smart to stay at 147. You're right. Grab that title and all of a sudden you have some leverage. to make these fights. Exactly. Yeah, once I'm a world champion again, then yeah, like, then they'll be calling me out.

I won't have to call them out no more. Then they'll be, I'll just sit back and watch my Twitter. Then they'll, like, they'll start calling me up. Well, I would say this, though, like, has to be Trezandre at that. Like, nobody's calling him out. Nobody will get in the rain. He's got a belt, nobody's trying to fight him.

Yeah, yeah, well, hopefully I'm not like that. I hope so. I hope so either. Do you think Jervante would ever fight you? Because that was injured, when you said, I'm ready to go, I'm ready. I would have been all for it. That would have been a monster fight, an entertaining fight, two big punchers, but I'd never

believed he was going to. He's not going to fight me. I don't think so. I think, listen, I'm a student of the game. I'm a historian in the game. Boxing is about advantage. It's all about getting that small, small advantage over your opponent, right? With me, I think that if they ever agreed to fight me, they would do something like,

Floyd is a master. He's a master. He's smart. He's smart as boxing business, right? So it's all about advantage. I think if they ever agreed to fight me, they would do something like. type, they will try to take some type of advantage and what they will say is, let's do it at 137. Let's do it on 138 or something like that. Because, you know, I'm 40 and they know I have,

you know, I had trouble making weight. Now, I probably could do that, but they'll probably say, let's do it at 130. Let's do it. Oh, if you, if you make the, you know, if it's at 140, you can't go over 145 or something like that. I think that's what they'll try to do something like that. So I'm calling out right now before they even try to do that, right? So Floyd did a Canello back in the day, 152. It's about, it's about advantages. You know, it's smart, you know. And so, You know, Javonte, he's bigger to me. He's a bigger name to me. So, you know, that's what they'll try to do.

And if they say, oh, I'm going to pay you $10,000, like, you know, what you? You know, it's like, oh, well, I'm going to complain about it, but I'm going to get 10 minutes. So it's what it is. But as far as physically, like, me and him, minor to mono, like, I don't think he has no advantages. You're just physically bigger. I'm physically bigger. I think I'm stronger. I think I'll punch hard.

I can fight. You know, I can box when I need to. I'm slick. And when I, you know, when I need to, I have defense. and stuff and I'm just a dog and they know that and I have a chin. You can't just, he can't just hit me and just beat me up, you know? So I think that

it won't be no advantage of someone. Oregis, you are a television friendly fighter, man. I'm hoping to see you back multiple times, three times at least in 2022. Hopefully 2020 is a good year. Hopefully a world title around your waist and you get some of these big fights that you've been asking for and frankly deserve. I mean, one loss should not, a loss that close

should not stop a guy from getting all these big fights. So appreciate your time, man, and good luck to you next year. That's it. That's it for this episode my thanks to James Andrew Miller and Regis Prograde for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts. And we'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you

funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

Well, now I'm bringing all of that. excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

On the Look Back at a podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it, with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year.

It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.