The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - What should Canelo do next

Episode Date: May 20, 2022

Chris is joined by the former boxer and current Showtime analyst, Abner Mares, as they discuss Canelo's future, how he should approach his next fight, and how only a select few fighters need to earn the right to fight Canelo. Later, Joshua Buatsi stops by to talk about boxing in the Olympics, and where he views himself in the boxing landscape. #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Here's Chris Mannix. All right, new guests this week. Abner Morris, three division world champion, now a Showtime boxing analyst. Never been on the podcast before. Glad to welcome him in. He was ringside for the incredible fight between Jermel Charlo and Brian Castanio this past weekend. and does great work all the time over at Showtime. And Abner joins me on the show.

What's happening? Abner, good to have you here. Hey, Chris. Thank you so much for having me on him. Just happy to be here, man. Thank you. Yes. So I was on at that fight this weekend, like you mentioned, great fight.

Can you please relay tomorrow? We're not going to do Punch Bowl, okay? We can't do Punch Bowl. Like just wargrounds is fine. Like Punch Bull, it's like forcing a nickname. And I'm someone, Abner, that's tried to force things down people's throats before. I made people eat a fight between Demetris, Andrade, and Jamal Charlo that never happened. I understand that, but Punch Bull, I can't get on board with it, man.

Yeah, I hear you, man. You're not the only one. I hear it a lot on Twitter as well, a lot of people comment on that. But, hey, you know, if he wants to call it that, you know, I'll let him call it that. But, you know, it's more known. I remember back in my time to be a war someone, correct? Correct if I'm wrong, yeah. Yeah, it's had a few nicknames over the years.

but a great place to watch a fight and always leads itself for some reason always leads itself some reason to great fights and this fight between Charlo and Castano was no different. Pretty tight fight I thought it was going into those final rounds. Then Jermel Charlo finds another gear

and knocks out Brian Castanio. Second straight time Charlo has picked up a knockout in a rematch. As you look back on that fight, like what were your big takeaways? What stood out to you? well even before the fight i'm sorry even before the fight the fact that joan guzman was in uh germal charlos camp um him working defensively um but during the fight um it kind of sort of

started the same way as the first one you know um first round they were feeling each other uh trying to figure each other out uh why i don't know why they fought already you know they fought in the pass. This was the 13th round. But what stood out for me the most was the adjustments that you mentioned Jamal Charlo was able to make after I believe I saw the sixth, seventh round. Yeah, you mentioned the gear. But so much aside from the gear, I think it was the adjustments. I mean, the change, the jab, he went back on the jab. He not staying on the ropes, the combinations. I mean, a barrage of things from Charlo. And really, because Sanyo, I mean, the only thing we asked for him was more volume.

You know, I asked, and I said it on a telecast, yes, you're going to, you got a risk. You know, you got to take those risks. You got to go and let your hands go. You might catch a hand here and there, but you're going to land yours as well. So, you know, things like that. but definitely Jermal's, Charles' performance was something to really, to really throw out there.

There are mentions of people that, you know, he made the adjustments like you mentioned. You know, he fought Tony Harrison one fight. A lot of people thought he lost. A lot of people thought he won. He came back and he knocked him out. This fight, first fight against Castanio, people thought he lost.

People thought he won. He came back and knocked him out. So I like those statements that Charlo makes. You know, it comes back, you make adjustments. and that's how you prove people wrong. Yeah, that's one way to make sure that there's no controversy, to pick up a knockout and say, you know,

and have some finality to it right there. Jermel, who, it seems angry even in victory at times. I was watching some of the footage of the press conference afterwards, and Jermel basically telling media members to start putting some respect on my name. When I hear that, Abner, I hear about a, I feel like a guy, wants to be included on the pound for pound list. In your mind, Jermel Charlo, undisputed at 154, pretty solid resume.

Does he belong in the top 10 of all fighters in boxing? I'm one of the many guys that I don't believe in the pound for pound list, to be honest, but I know you're asking the question, so I'm going to answer it. And yes, and yes, obviously after that performance, And it's not just that performance. We mentioned Antonio Harrison, and we mentioned other fights.

He definitely earned his badge to put himself in a pound-for-pound list. Again, that's my opinion. And but again, you know, I don't believe in on that because it only takes one fight like we saw against Kennell Alvarez for him loose. And then all of a sudden he's the worst fight of the world. And he put him all the way down to like four, fifth, after being the top guy and the face of boxing. You get me?

So that's why I dislike these, you know, pound for pound list. Look, I agree that, you know, on mine over at Sports Illustrated, I only dropped Canello one slot. I put Terrence Crawford above him and Canello at number two. And look, you can't ask fighters to take big fights and then be especially punitive towards them if they lose. You can't, you want fighters to dare to be great. I mean, Canello could have fought anybody.

He could have gone over to the UK and taken a showcase fight against like a John Ryder, if you want to. Could have gone to Mexico City and fought a lesser opponent in front of a sold-out venue down there. He chose to move up and face a guy in Dimitri Beaville who is incredibly dangerous and is obviously really good at that weight class. So I'm with you. I don't, you know, on dropping guys, moving guys around too much if they take one loss, that's wrong. I'll ask you it this way. If you had to choose, because this is what I had to do in making my next pound for pound list, I had to choose between Bevo and Jermel because I thought Chaucor Stevenson did enough in his last fight

to earn a spot on it, two division champion, fought some good guys, tremendously skilled fighter, which you have to take into account as well. Bevo, he's got the win over Joe Smith, and now he's got the win over Canelo. But I love Jermel's resume from Erickson Lubin on up, really since 2017. I think he's fought eight times. Seven of the eight were what you would consider significant fights. I think Jorge Cota was the only one that really was, and that wasn't his fault.

That's because Tony Arison pulled out of that fight with an injury. So to me, resume matters. Like if you have to have a real, if you want to be on a pound for pound list, you need to have a real resume. I think Jermel Charlo has one of the better resumes in and around his weight class, one of the better resumes, frankly, in all of boxing. 100%. I couldn't have not said it better.

I mean, that's how you really rank people based on the resume. It's not based on the last performance, last fight, you know, really who they fought and what they did, you know, to deserve to be in that spot. So you put it well, Jamal Charlo has definitely been fighting great opponents and not only great opponents have been demonstrating the improvement and escalated to a level where he just serves to be in the spot

in the pound-for-pound list, 100%. Yeah, yeah, no question. Let's look forward, though, for Jamel. You know, in the aftermath of his fight, I was reminded of that scene in, what was at the beginning of Rocky 5, when Rocky comes back from Russia after being in a war with Drago and, like, Union Kane shows up at his press conference and says, time to fight me, I'm the real champ.

Like, immediately after, this is why I love boxing, like, because, and I'm the guy in the ring all the time asking fighters, but what's next, it's like, A fighter's like, and I'm not telling you anything, you don't know, but a fighter's like they get into almost like a car crash and then someone's asking them when they want to get into a car crash again. You want to go do it all over again. So like, but so Jermal Charlo immediately afterwards,

he's hearing from Tim Zhu. We're hearing about the IBF mandatory that's been on his docket for a while. Sebastian Fondora was in California watching that fight. Jermel's going to take some justified time off. But if he fights again, say, before the end of the year, Do you think he should fight a Tim Zoo or a Fondora? Should he look for a lesser fight and drop a belt?

Should he move up and wait? What do you think the next move should be for Jermal Charlo? I think his next move would definitely be defending those belts for maybe one or two more fights. If I was the matchmaker, I would put them on the less complicated fight, I would say. I mean, you just never know. I mean, and I'm just going based on what I saw. I think team Sue would doubt no disrespect towards him or his team. I feel like he's like the lesser threat.

He's a great fighter. But I think, you know, if you had to compare him with Fondora and Sue, I think it will be a good matchup of fight where I think he could win. I think Fondora will be a much more difficult fight based on the volume and the reach, the height. And we saw what he did with, what's the name? Lubin, yeah. Lubin, Lubin. Oh, my God, Louvin, too. And I love Lubin.

You know, that's one guy I was high on, too. And, you know, I was make fights. Unfortunately, Condora was just, you know, the bigger guy. And he just couldn't figure him out. But I would love a fight against Sue. I think Sue is a great name, a good matchup. And not saying that it's not such of a difficult fight, but I think it'll be a lesser threat.

That's what I'm trying to say. So I think I think you should go that route and then move up to a higher division to the next class. Yeah, I'm with you on Tim Zoo. I mean, watching Tim Zoo in his last fight against Terrell Goseh. Look, he's a very good offensive fighter, but there's not a lot of head movement there.

And that's kind of the opposite of Brian Kastanya. Yeah, Brian Kastanya was a lot of movement. He's in and out. He's throwing volume punches. Like, Tim Zoo can catch you with some. something big. I think that power's real, but he's also a target. And for a fighter like Jermel Charlo, he's kind of right on his eye line. Like that just seems like a fight Charlo could harness that power of his and win by knockout. Plus, Tim Sue probably is going to keep getting

better as he gets more fights. So maybe catching him now is catching him at the right time when it's still a marketable fight. Of course. But I mean, Sue is the one that's trying to get this fighting, wants this fight. If I was Sue, I mean, I'll try to catch in different fights, get more experience, but you know, if he wants this fight, I think it's a difficult fight for him. And the way you explained it, I mean, it's exactly how it is as far as styles, I think. So it was a no-head movement. He walks in straightforward, a lot of power, but, you know, big guy. But, you know, you can't do that, you know, against guys in the level of Jamal Charlo.

Plus, I wouldn't want to fight Fondora. Like, how the fuck does Fondora make 154 pounds? Like, seriously? Like, what the hell? I just did the fight with Gilberto Ramirez. Gilberto made 175, and then he ballooned to 204 the next day. I would not want to fight a 6'4-Fundora at 154 pounds.

I don't even know what weight he's coming in at when he gets into the ring. Yeah, that's the one guy you definitely want to avoid for now because, you know, he shows up. And like you said, we don't know what weight. And not only that, a kid can fight. He throws a lot of punches. He's not really a technical. fighter. He really, you know, he doesn't even reuse his reach, you know, throw that away, you know,

talking about his reach. This is a guy that fights inside type of fight. And yeah, this is, this is, this is a guy who used this. I think it was, I want to say it was Crawford that said that Fondora was a cheat code on video games. I think I read that somewhere. It's like, you know, you cheat and you get this bigger guy in the way class that, you know. So he shouldn't be, but it is what it is. You know, as long as the guy can make the weight, and, you know, you can use that as an advantage, you know, go for it. God, I mean, God love him.

I thought Paul Williams was a big welterweight, and he was. But Sebastian Vendora, junior middleweight is just massive. Getting better, it seems like, by the fight. Like, that power is growing over the last few fights. I mean, you just look at Erickson Lupin's face. That'll kind of tell you the story there. I mean, how big a puncher Fondora is. One last question about the cart from Saturday.

But Zennis continues to look impressive. You know, knocks out Castillo Clayton second round, a guy that had never been knocked out before in his career. You know, he knocks out Thomas Delorme in the first round. Sometimes, you know, I often hesitate to anoint a guy as great until we see him in with somebody great. But, you know, Boots Ennis, how good is he? Like, what is his ceiling in that division?

How good is he? You just mentioned two good fighters, not great, good fighters. I don't even want to say decent. They're good fighters. You know, speaking of, sorry. Yeah, Delorme made out the distance with... His last opponent. DeLarman, exactly.

Two great fighters, and he just made them look like, you know, just regular fighters. He made them look like, you know, lesser opponents, knocked them out. like who does that you know only someone that's talented as him he looked really good he's the guy that really knows how to time his punches he's a guy that really knows um how to just close the show really yeah he's got a little bit of everything i mean if he if he could make a fight with errol spence and look spence has got his eyes on a bigger prize at the moment but yeah ennis versus spence how would you see that going right now? I mean, we said in the tag. I think Venice is the boogeyman of that division right now. He is the boogeyman. He's the guy that you want to avoid. You don't

want to fight him right now. He's in his prime. He's talented. He's hungry. He's a type of guy that will give anyone, any world champion right now with trouble. Yeah, what's interesting about the lane that he's into is that he's fighting for IBF belts. He's going to be, here is the IBF mandatory. The IBF, as you know, is the one organization that doesn't really screw around with this stuff. They can't really get away. They're going to give you the opportunity no matter what your name is and no matter who holds that title, which I like about them. Like I like that they force guys into action. I think it's going to, you know, Spence, he may have a decision to make, you know, sooner rather than later. If they can't, you know, finalize a Crawford fight before the end

of the year, the IBF may step in and say, look, you've got to defend that title or vacate it. And I'm not sure would he do then? I don't know. Like, does he want to risk all his belts against the guy like Boots Ennis, who we know is great? But the public at large is still somewhat unaware of in the same way they're somewhat unaware of Virgil Ortiz. And O'Connor Ben's got a pretty big name in the UK, but, you know, in the U.S., he's not unknown commodity. I think that'll be an interesting decision that Spence may be faced with if the IBF says defended or vacate. It is, and it isn't. Like you said, I mean, I, I, and he's got a great team behind him

you know, Earl Spence. I think if it's really a mandatory and they're really forcing it for that fight, I would just make it the title, you know, try to avoid him as far as now. And you mentioned a great name, Virgil Ortiz, make Virgil Ortiz fight

boot tennis and the winner of that possibly fight, Errol Spence, you know, fights like that, that you want the younger fighter to take on a hard for him to, um, you know, take the punishment, I guess, you know, to, so, so whenever you fight him, you know, he's not the same fighter. So I think that's, that's a route that Errol Spencer go. Yeah, I'd love to see Ortiz, you know, versus, you know, boots at us. I mean,

I'd love to see it three times at some point in the next, you know, five years like that. I can't wait, I just can't wait to see Ortiz back, period. Yeah. I know, I know, yeah, he suffered some injuries are some illness and I hope he's back soon. Yeah, says he's going to come back at 147 as well, which is good. I wondered if he was going to move up to 154 after having some weight issues. But if he stays at 147 and Ennis is there, hell, make an IBF title fight between Ortiz and Ennis. And let's see who backs out.

Let's see whose promotional company says no. Let's see like how. Then we'll learn a lot about who wants who between those two guys. All right, I would look ahead to the fight this weekend, David Benavides against David Lemieux. Lemieux's got a name. I don't know what he has left. I've watched his last few fights. Still got some pop, no question,

but the sharpness is gone. I think some of the punch resistance has gone as well. But it's still a decent name for David Benavides to be facing at this point. What do you think of that fight? And if you're David Benavides, where do you go in the next six months to a year? With 168, you know, kind of bottlenecked at the moment

with whatever Kenelette Alvarez is going to do. Yeah, that's a really good question. Yeah, I mean, touching the point of the fight, I think it's a, he's fighting, like you mentioned, one of those fighters that has the name, decent record. And really, you don't know how he's going to show up. You know, he's at an age that you might,

you don't know if he's going to show up and perform as his age. As the fights, you know, have gone on. He's faced great fights. fighters, talking about Lemieux, but David Vinavius is just growing as a fighter, only getting better. And he's making statements after statements in each and every single fight. And I think especially this one at his hometown, he's going to try to do. And I think he's just going to try to pursue the big fight, which is Canelo. He wants that fight against Alvarez. And I think, and he's doing the right thing, which is, you know, pressuring him and almost forcing him and the crowd to really,

just, you know, have Canelo take that fight. Is it the right time for Benavides? Maybe not. I would want Benavides to get a little bit more experience before he faces a Canelo Alvarez. But even if they fight now, I think it will be a really good fight. Some call Benavides. What do they call? I heard a name, the Mexican boogeyman, the Mexican monster or something like that. But he is. he is that in that weight class. He's a big kid. And I should call him kid because I think he's like 23, 24 years old. I mean, he's still a kid growing. He's not really yet in his peak. He's not in his full-grown man strength, I would say. So he's only going to get better and bigger and stronger. So I can't wait for what the future holds for Dave Benavides. Yeah, I would like to see, look, Benavides is a very good fighter. But Canelo said something after he agreed to the deal to fight Bevo and then presumably Gilofkin, and we're going to get to that.

But he said, hey, guys, you want to fight me talking about Benavides, plant, Charlo. Go fight each other first. Like you're all kind of around the same weight class. And look, Benavides is going to fight this weekend. You've got Charlo coming back next month. And I'm sorry, not a good fight. That's just not. I mean, you're fighting Demetrius Andrade's leftovers, Daniel Jacobs' leftovers in Machek-Saleski.

I don't like that fight at all. And Caleb Plant doesn't have a fight at the moment. Like if two of those three guys need to face each other before the end of the year. And the winner of that fight, the public should get behind that fighter as the next man up for Canelo Alvarez. Because the winner of that fight will have earned it. And that's what it comes down to for me. You've got to earn it. Like calling for it is great.

Doing interviews are great. having a title is great, having a nice record is great, but earn it. Earn the fight by beating other top fighters, and that's why I want to see Benavides do in the second half of 2022. Yeah, I know, I get what you're saying, and I think at the end of day, what Benavides is doing is what he should be doing, which is calling the bigger name. You still, you want to become, you want to be the guy calling the guy out,

you know, and he's calling Oknello like everybody else is. but it doesn't mean it's going to happen but what you said is great is exactly what might happen you know if you can't get that big fight the big name the top dog which is Alvarez of course you're going to end up going fighting a plant

you're going to end up fighting a Charlo and even then those fights are great fights if they happen and really good fights and whoever wins you know comes up on top like Canelo Alvarez said you know fight each other and then you'll fire me. It'll definitely end up happening.

But what I'm saying, what my answer was that, yeah, you still want to keep calling Canelo Averas because you just don't know. You know, Conno, you know, you just might say, hey, you know what? I'm tired of it. Let's go.

Let's take this fight. And you still don't know where Conno's going to be. We're talking about a big, big bowl free match, people talking about moving back down to Canelo Alvarez, waiting for all his belts. I mean, we just don't know what Canelo Alvarez is going to do at this point.

No, and Canello is in the position where he can do whatever he wants. He's going to make a lot of money no matter who he fights, regardless of the Bebel match. Which brings me the next question. If you're Canelo Alvarez, what do you do? It seems like there are two options for September. A rematch with Bevel either at 175 or, as you said, Bevel has discussed, coming down in wait perhaps, and fighting at 168. Maybe there's a catch weight you can make somewhere in the middle.

Or do you kind of put that fight aside and go straight into that? to the marketable trilogy fight against Ganadi Golovkin, which is still one of the bigger fights that appeals to a mainstream audience in all of boxing. There still is an appetite, I think, for Canello against Golofkin. If you're Canelo Alvarez or if Canelo asks you what he should do, what would you say? I say take the Triple G fight. Take that fight. I think people still want to see that fight.

it's a good fight for him. I mean, we got to understand that Nello's been going tough after tough after tough fight back to back. He fought, what, three fights, four fights in a year?

This is a period of time, this small period of time, this is a guy that fights constantly. You know, he doesn't let his body rest and not saying that, you know, that had anything to do

with this performance against people. But I'm saying, you know, take a break, take on a fight, your weight class against a great name against the guy you fought already, older, older guy who did not look. That's impressive as he usually does, speaking of Triple G. And just go out there and perform, you know, beat this guy. And after that, guess what? People are back on your bandwagon, which, you know, I hate people for doing that. But, you know, boxing is like that.

they only recognize you for your last performance. So I say you do that. Don't face the B-ball yet, nor in your weight class or, you know, the higher-weight class that you fought in because, you know, it's not the time. And I'm going to be a little honest here because not only the Canello, yes, he lost because he moved up to a different weight class, heavy work class, but he also got an outbox.

You know, we got to understand that. You know, Bibo's boxing abilities, boxing methods, not sitting on the ropes, the jabbed the distance helped a lot. A lot of people are blaming the weight, the, you know, hand being bigger. But it was a lot more than that, you know, not saying that Canelo just, you know, can't beat that style. I think you can. But, you know, it was just more than that. So I think you just take that break, put that fight in pause, take a triple G,

fight, earn your, you know, get your momentum back, get your mind right, and then fight again, B-B-B-B-B-B. When you watch that fight, you mentioned the weight. Did you watch that fight thinking that, okay, maybe Canello reached his limit. Maybe a guy that began his career at 140 pounds should not go higher than 168, or do you think that if they did fight again, Canello can make the necessary adjustments to come away with a win? I think he can make the necessary adjustments. And the, I mean, if B-Bow was,

where to move down to Canelo's weight, I think way bigger chance of Canelo winning also. Well, what are the adjustments then? Like, because B-Bow is probably going to be the same fighter the second time around, maybe even a little bit better having experienced Canelo for the first time. Right. The adjustments, I think for this.

This fight, he looked tired. You could tell he didn't prepare as well. And he said it. I was tired after the six, I believe you said. I was gasped. The condition wasn't there. So when your body, the condition is not there, you know, it prevents you from doing more. So what do I mean my more?

More throwing more punches. He was only throwing one, two. People was timing him, catching one one hand and then counter punching with this left. So throwing more volume, more pressure. D-O-Conella, the really the Canelo we usually see moving forward, closing the gap, body shots, more combinations, not just relying on your power, which it seemed like Canello was just trying to do that land, a big shot, which, you know, never got there, especially in that weight class. Yeah, if I was, if I was advising Canello, it certainly doesn't listen to me, that's for sure. But if I was saying, I would say, you know, look, the Golofkin fight is a huge fight. You're going to be a big favorite in it.

You'll make like $50 million or something like that. It's a very mainstream type of fight. Take that fight. Take an easier fight in December. If you want to go three times, maybe that does mean John Ryder in the UK or some kind of homecoming fight. And then maybe you see if Bevo can get a fight between the Better B.F. Smith winner. Because let's say Bevo beats the winner of Better B.F. Smith. The B-Vos I saw would be a favorite in a fight against either.

Joe Smith, he already wiped the mat with in a fight a couple of years ago. And better be of as big and strong as he is, he can be outboxed. We've seen that happen a little bit at time, whether it's Vostick or Marcus Brown. They've had some success against him. And if B-Bow wins that fight and becomes undisputed at 175, well, that's another carrot to face him with. Like if you face him in May of 2023, not only do you get the rematch, but you only have to campaign at 175 one more time to get all four belts.

Like it just, there's a lot of business sense it makes to wait on a rematch with Dimitri Bebele. Well, if Canello doesn't listen to you, I hope he listens to you now, bro. He hears this right because he just put it in perspective, like really how you should do it. And now business has done, really,

because you touch the great point, aside from just the boxing, the matchups, the styles, you know, the timing. It's a business. and how it builds up to be the right fight at the right time with all that in line. Yeah, and by the way, I get Bevo and his team saying, I'll go to 168 because let's say Beaville in September goes down to 168 to face Canello. Let's say he beats him.

He could then go up early next year and fight for undisputed at 175. That'd be two undisputed championships in a matter of months. That's some Hall of Fame shit, there, Abner. Like, you know, that's how you get into Candistota right there. Yeah, and then that's why he's trying to pressure Kinella, trying to get in this head and this team like, hey, let's do it. Let's make this fight again. People want it. You know, I beat you.

I know you don't want to come up to my weight. You might want to come up and I'll come down to your weight for your about. But they're trying to get that fight right now. But, yeah, you're right. If Canella should beat smarter, his team is, they are. Yeah, he's got his position for a reason. And I think they're going to make the right decision as far as who he fights next. I wonder, though, and you're familiar with the Mexican pride.

I wonder if Mexican pride takes over with Canelo and he says, you know what? I know Golofkins needs your fight, but I ain't going out like that. It's like he told me in the ring, this isn't over. Like I wonder if that kicks in with him. And he says, I'm doing it come hell or high water. It does kick in at the moment. But I think he's had time to really just sit down and think and make the right decision. So he will make the smart decision.

We'll see what happens there. Abner, great to talk to you, man. Keep up the great work over at Showtime. Look forward to seeing you on these upcoming broadcasts, and we'll do this again. Yes, we will. Thank you so much for having you on, Chris. Really appreciate it.

When we come back, my conversation with Joshua Bozzi. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all. all embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away,

such as the biology of tontons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Fight fans, take your best shot

with a risk-free bet of up to $1,000 from FanDuel Sportsbook. Even if your fighter gets knocked out or tapped out, new customers get up to $1,000 back if your first bet doesn't win. Just sign up with the promo code boxing to bet on all the biggest boxing matches and UFC fights. Choose from the money line to the method of victory and so much more. Fandual is America's number one sportsbook. The app is so easy to use and when you win, you'll get paid quickly.

And Fandle's sports book just launched in Ontario, Canada. To place your first bet risk free, just sign up with the promo code boxing. So if you've listened to this podcast, followed me on Twitter or watched on DeZone, you know I am a huge fan of Joshua Bozzi. Been covering him since the 2016 Olympics where he won a bronze medal for Great Britain. He's now undefeated as a professional, 15 and 0 with 13 wins coming by knockout. On Saturday, he will face Craig Richards in a significant domestic showdown over in the UK. It's a fight you could watch exclusively on DeZone.

and Josh Bootsi joins me on the show. Josh, how you doing, man? Chris, not bad, man, not bad. Been a while since the Olympic Games, but I'm good, thank you. How about you? Been a while, you're right. And not too many stops over in the U.S. for you lately.

I remember telling the guys over at Sky Sports when you came over on that AJ Undercard. I'm like, we want Boatzi in the U.S. more. We need him fighting in the U.S. They go, no, no, no, no. We want him in the U.K. more. So you're in demand, my man. You're in demand.

No, for sure. I think we need to get a fair balance. me boxing out there and boxing in the States, boxing in the States and in the UK as well. But it's always good to be in demand, but as you know, May 21st, this weekend is what it's about. So I'm all good, man. So how are you feeling going into this fight?

How was camp? How was preparations? What kind are you feeling right now? Camp was good, Chris. I had a very hard camp to be fair with you. So prep has gone as good as it could have gone. Do you know what I mean? I did my best to leave no stones unturned. And yeah, I'm excited to fight.

this weekend, a good opponent, a nice domestic, that stuff. So I'm looking forward to that. Do you look at Craig Richards as being your toughest fight to date? I know you don't know anything until you get in the ring, but on paper, is he your toughest opponent? The most important fight so far, yeah. In terms of toughest or, you know, this and all of that, I don't know, but in terms of how important the fight is, is the most important one.

And that's primarily because it's the next one. And like you said, it's one that I must win. And it's a very important one. So I go with that title more. It's a very important fact to me, Chris. So help me understand this. Are you friends with Craig Richards? Are you friends with his family?

I mean, where is the friendship there? So I think being in the same area, we've been in the same tournaments. Of course, cross paths. You have similar friends probably spot each other, boxed each other. Because when you enter the nationals, you enter a, you enter via southeast London divisions, then you go through to the London's, and you go on and so forth.

So I box him years ago, and when I came up in the Olympic Games, I spied him, when I see his mom at the boxing show, yes, I'll go up to her, say hi, his sisters also say hi to them. So, you know, I'm a bit familiar, but not crazy familiar.

So those experiences sparring with them, working out with them, do they prepare you at all for what you're going into? Not at all Chris. There were years ago. And ones that I don't necessarily remember too well. Do you know what I mean? I'm a different fight.

I'm sure he is too, so I can't take too much from that. He's known to a lot of people before this fight as the guy that gave Dimitri Beaville hell in Beowell's fight, a couple of fights before that. Beable, of course, went on and beat Canelo Alvarez a couple of weeks ago. Does Beowles win make you look at Richards any more? differently. Does it make you take him any more seriously because of the success Beeble just had and the success Richards had against Beeble? No, I took it serious when we agreed to it, when it was signed

and more serious when I came back to London, I think a few months ago for the press just to build out of the fight and that. I take it more serious then. So it's not to say that I didn't take it serious and only two weeks ago, I've taken it very, very serious. That's too late. You know what I mean? So I'm not. I take it very serious from the get, and I'm glad I had that approach. So six years into your professional career, almost six years now, are you happy with where you are? Is this where you expected to be? I mean, with the way the division is going, the division that I specifically fight and competing, it's been a bit

it's been a bit locked should I say so Chris I asked you a question you had an Olympic Games if we look at the 32 men in the light heavyweight division that were there tell me where they are

and tell me where I am the only guy that's got good rankings like myself is the guy from France the other bronze medalist so it's like when people say oh Josh what are you doing this that and that we need to understand where categories are different

it is different. You might fight in a way category where it's a bit more open, the belts are available, there might not be unified champions, there might not be other fights demanding that weight category or you might fight in a weight category

where it's very locked. But you should ask me, have I put a foot wrong? I haven't. Also in that category of the men that went to the 2016, I'm up there with the guy from France in terms of the guys that went to that games,

where are they now? Let's take a look. look at it. And when we do that, we could say, okay, this guy's doing the right, that guy, maybe not. So it's like, really, when I sit back and I look at it like that, I say, I've done nothing wrong. I've won my fights. I've had the fights that I need to have. Of course, like I said, the division is a bit tied up, but you can't just sit and stand still. You've got to keep moving and, you know, having the right fights. So, no, I don't sit back and think, I should have done this, I could have done this. No, this is the division that I'm fighting. And that's just the nature

of it. You could expand it, Josh, to beyond light heavyweight. I mean, outside of, say, Teufima Lopez, Chaucer Stevenson, I'm sure there's a few more, you've probably made as much progress as anyone coming out of those 16 Olympics. You could say that too, Chris, you know, but again, if I were doing, if I were world champion, people would still say something, do you know what I mean. So, of course. It's boxing. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

So for me, I think it's important to keep progressing, moving forward, having these fights. And here we have on Saturday, a fight that, you know, people are interested in. So it should be good. You're training with Virgil Hunter, correct? Still with Virgil. Yeah. How has that experience been for you?

I mean, do you get more comfortable with him every fight? I mean, how would you describe that experience? I mean, you get more familiar with things. the wording of things, the understanding of things, and you bond with whoever you're working with. So there's a team out there that we work very closely together. I've been out there for a lot of time already this year, Chris. I haven't got my American passport yet, but the way it is,

I need to get one, do you know what I mean? But now it's been good. It's been a good experience. It's been a good camp. And like you said, as time goes on, you just understand each other more. You can learn quicker. you can communicate better, easier. It's been quite a good, man.

Why was he the right fit for you? Because when that was announced, it surprised me a little bit. Because Virgil, you know, everybody knows Virgil from Andre Ward. He taught a lot of, he was a very defensive style technique kind of guy. You coming out of those Olympics, why I thought you were such a great pro prospect was you were offense. Like you were a power puncher in the Olympic games where there were no power punchers, at least not on that level.

Was Virgil and how he taught boxing something you were looking for? What was it about him that attracted to you? It was the mentality, the thoughts about defense and just understanding boxing. Like you said, Kristen, the Olympic Games, when the bell went, I was just a sharp shoot. I'll come out. Man, let's see he's great. Do you know what I mean?

And they worked at that time, do you know what I mean? But I understand now that there's a sign. of boxing there's an art to it which I have to say I haven't really learned in the depths of which I'm learning now so for me I said I need a teacher not a coach Chris a teacher so many coaches out there but I said to myself I need someone that can teach me these very things so again I feel this move was the right move that I needed to do of course many said you know what you could have just gone to a coach that's more aggressive because it's your style it does this it does that but I said the aggression and the come forward fire is there so why then I just

improve the defense so I can be a much more rounded fighter and that's that's the main reason why I chose him do you feel like how close are you to being the fighter you want to be then after working with Virgil for over a year hard to say man because when I when I look at some of the things that fighters I've done in a fight I'm blowing away I love the the art of boxing Chris like I look it and I'm like wow that's crazy you can do that that's possible and I'm doing bits of it But when I see fighters that do it all the time and I'm studying boxing, I'm blowing away, man. I'm just fascinated.

I'm like, that's crazy. I need to be doing that. So, yeah, I'm far away, but, you know, I'm learning. I'm learning. You obviously want to be a world champion at 175. Those belts are tied up at the moment. It might be tied up for as long as a year if we see unification fights.

Like when you look at light heavyweight now in the landscape, where do you see yourself fitting in? A fighter that's readily for a title shot. You know, I don't think, I don't think that I need, you know, three, four more fights or whatever. Like I think, a fighter that's ready, you know. After my last fight, it was said your next one would be a world title. And then, like I said, the division got busy.

People had to do what they had to do. But it's for me to stay ready to keep learning so that when that shot comes, I'll be there to take it. Do you feel your, when did you feel, you were ready for a title shot after your last fight did you feel a couple of fights ago when did that confidence get in you um my last fight was interesting because it's the first time that i went 11 um usually i think the most i done prior to that was seven so it was my and the thing is i do the rounds all the time in camp all the time chris so to do it in the actual fight i was like

yep ticked off i know i can do it you know i mean because you do one thing in the gym yes but you want to do it in real life in the fight when the lights are bright So just what I'm learning as well recently, what I'm learning and just the mindset. Maybe I'm growing, I'm maturing whatever it is, but we just keep pushing forward with that mentality. I should tell you, Josh, I am now, and I did this last week on DeZone, I am now driving the bus for Joshua Bowatsi versus Gilberto Ramirez. That to me is, it's not a title fight, I understand, but it is a fun fight. It's a competitive fight. You could do it in Southern California.

You could do it in the UK. It should be an easy fight to make because of Golden Boy and Matrim's relationship. That is now on top of my list, Josh, on big fights I want to see. And you know what? I don't blame you, but you should see it from my angle. What I want to hear and what Ramirez, I'm sure, wants to hear, is that final Eliminator. That's what everyone wants to hear. You don't want to keep hearing Eliminator, Eliminator.

You want to hear final so that, you know, once you get past this, you know what's next. You know what I mean? So for me, as long as I hear, final eliminator, I'm all in. That's good to know. That should be. It absolutely should be. I mean, the fact that Dominic Bozell last weekend was number one. I don't quite understand how that actually happened to the WBA rankings,

but you two should be fighting for a final eliminator in all the sanctioning bodies. What did you think of, I mean, you're a light heavyweight. He's a light heavyweight. He weighed 204 pounds on fight night. What do you think of that? Big man, then. He must be a big man. I haven't seen the fight, to be fair, with Dominic Bosil.

Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy, man. But if you can put in that weight, then you can, in it? How much do you rehydrate to, usually, the next day? Maybe the late 80s. Yeah. Early 90s. If that year, I don't really check, to be fair, but I would assume around that time, yeah,

but doing over 200, then you're a big guy. Absolutely. Well, I hope whether it's the WBA, WBC, WBO, I BF, if someone wants to get on board this Boise Ramirez train for a final eliminator, I will continue to push for it. It's a great fight. You're always in great fights, Josh. Craig Richards up first this weekend, May 21st, live on DeZone over in the UK. Good luck to you, man. Hope to see a state side real soon. Yes, sir. Thank you very much, Chris. Have a good one. Thank you. All right.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced game. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clipper Taylor, The fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tontons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two.

Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. podcast. Tough week, last week, I gave you Brian Castanio by decision. Didn't work out that way. Was Jermel Charlo by knockout? Falk Castanio had it in him to make a run. Disappointed, by the way, the judge's scorecards in that, even if it gone to a decision, Brian Castanio was not going to win. It was a lot closer fight than I think the judges had it scored up until that point. But it's neither here nor there. Castanio lost. Charlo won, rightfully, justifiably, gets a big win. So I go Oh, and two last week. This week, I'm right back, though. I am right back in the mix with my picks.

Brought to you, of course, as always, by Fandul. David Benavides against David Lemieux, big fight on Showtime this weekend. Benevita's, look, he's a big favorite for a reason. David Lemieux has won five fights in a row, but they have been largely low-level fights, and he hasn't really been the same fighter since we saw him several years ago lose to Ganadi Golofkin. and that was kind of his last big moments, and he hasn't been in the same sense. So Dave Benavides is minus 1,800 over at Fandoul, but I think Benavides is a lock to win this fight.

I also think he wins by knockout, minus 650 at the moment for knockouts, so not great odds, but I can tell you this. I've watched a lot of David Lemieux. He's been knocked down a few times in the last couple of years. His punch resistance at this stage of his career has really started to go. He's 33 years old. Former champion at middleweight, he's going to be fighting at super middleweight for this fight.

So I think Benavides mid-rounds gets the job done, knocks out David Lemieux. It's an interesting fight because Lemieux does still have power, and that makes any fight intriguing if a guy still has some pop. But I think David Benavides who also has power at super middleweight, 25 and O, big puncher, I think he gets the job done by knockout. So pick David Benavides by knockout over David Lemieux. That is my pick this week. you by Fandul.

That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Abner Marez and Joshua Bowatsi for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts. And I'll see you next week. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite, unhumored me with Robert Smigel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Street or Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all. embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast.

Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.