The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - What's Next for Canelo Álvarez?

Episode Date: January 15, 2022

Joining Chris this week is friend of the pod, Keith Idec. Chris and Keith dive into a number of different topics starting with the best cruiserweight in boxing calling out Jake Paul, the latest with Bud Crawford, and the end to his relationship with Top Rank, and finally the question that everyone wants to know, what's next for Canelo Álvarez? Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hosted by S.I's Chris Manix. That was my moment. Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. All right, Keith Ideck is here. Boxing Scene.com, senior writer, columnist over there. What's happening, Keith?

Hey, Chris, what's going on, man? How you doing? A lot is going on. And there's a bunch of topics I want to get into with you today. But can we begin with, like, shout out to Maris Bredis for leaning all in on the Jake Paul stuff? Like, Maris Bredis getting what is either a tattoo, it's got Jake on his leg. He's got the name Jake now on his leg right now as he becomes the latest boxer. This time an active boxer and a pretty damn good boxer, Bredis, arguably the top guy at Cruiserweight,

lobbying for a fight against Jake Paul, which proves my point, Keith. Like, these guys can dump on Jake and what he's doing all they want. But to quote Canello, they want the payday. payday, the payday when it comes to Jake Paul? I'm not convinced it's a real tattoo. Either way, you're still inking yourself in the leg and you're calling out Jake Paul. You are the number one cruise away in the world. You're calling out Jake Paul.

There's a very big difference between a real tattoo and a fake tattoo. And you could ask Pete Davidson, who's now getting 97 tattoos removed from his entire body, how different they are. But I don't really understand what he's trying to accomplish. I mean, he's got some attention out of it and he's not really a fighter who's gotten much attention despite being a world champion and maybe the best cruise are waiting boxing now. Why is a guy with five fights supposed to fight a world champion? He's not. I know. But so the point is it almost makes him look goofy and thirsty for trying to, like he doesn't really think that Jake Paul is going to fight him.

right. I mean, and in Jake Paul's defense, whatever anyone thinks of Jake Paul, he has five fights, right? Is it six now? Whatever it is. Going into six. Right. He's next. Yeah, he's going into a six fight. And to even consider fighting Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr., who is a shell of a shell of a shell of Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. that's a pretty big step for him because he's he is a real boxer whatever people might think he's older now of course 36 or whatever age he is and and unfortunately a flawed failure of a of a fighter but but he is a real boxer you know so so if he fights him he would deserve some credit for doing that he won't get it because the cesspool that is boxing social media and such they won't give me any credit for anything but um the problem is he keep the problem is like Let me just say. The problem is with boxers jumping on Jake Paul is that there are receipts out there.

Like I had this conversation with Sergio Amora like multiple times, right? Where I point out to Sergio that his first 10 opponents were terrible. I heard Tony Bellew on DeZone and I love Tony. It was a take on all comers guy at the end. But his fourth pro fight, his opponent had 92 losses. We got to stop pretending like just because guys like have boxing resumes that they're real boxers too. most of these guys have full-time jobs and train at Equinox or something along those lines. Yeah, that's true.

And I thought we were going to have to put you and Sergio in a time out there. You were going back and forth so much there about his resume. Yeah, I mean, geez. He fought Warren, Cronberger. I want to go meet Warren Cronberger. I need to meet Warren Cronberger and ask him and see what he's doing. Cronberger is not a boxer's name. I can say that much.

Jesus. But yeah, I mean, look, it's, it's, It's the guy who does the taxes of the fighter who, you know, brings this person to him or whatever. But look, I understand the hate directed at Jake Paul from boxers who've been, you know, really working hard at their craft as amateur fighters coming up through the amateur system and then, you know, trying to make some semblance of a living in a sport in which it's not very easy to do that. So I get some of the jealousy and the dislike directed toward him. But it is what it is and it's not going away.

until someone beats him and beats him badly, it's not going away because he has a fan base, you know, maybe not quite as big as people might have thought at one time, but he has a fan base that are willing to pack arenas and willing to buy his pay-per-views. So he's here to stay until someone beats him. And look, I think also you have to give him credit for taking boxing seriously, much more so maybe than his brother has, and has really attempted to get better at it. And he is improving. You know, Tyrone Woodley, obviously not a boxer, 39 years old and all that, took the fight on the rematch on short notice.

But that was a picture perfect knockout that he scored in December. And it showed some signs of improvement from him. And again, until someone beats him and beats him badly, he's not going anywhere. And for world champions to be calling him out, I understand it to some extent because he's trying to get paid too. And he has a family to support and everything. It just kind of, I don't know, it just kind of looks goofy to me. I don't know. I guess it's the best way to put it.

Yeah, all right. Well, I don't want to, you want to hear about Jake Paul, go back and we'll listen to the previous episode of this podcast when he was on or watch any of the episodes of Jabs over on his own. We go out of pretty good on that subject. Keith, I do want to talk about what was revealed as a pretty dark story in boxing this week when Terrence Crawford, one of the best fighters in the world,

Welterweight champion, recently decided to leave top rank after his contract expanse. filed a lawsuit against Top Rank, a six-count multi-million dollar complaint that alleges two separate counts of breach of contract, one count each of fraudulent misrepresentation, negligent misrepresentation, tortious breach of implied covenant of good faith, and accuses Top Rank in this 23-page complaint of, quote, extensive allegation of racial bias, against Terrence Crawford and quote, disparament treatment of black boxers.

There's a lot to unpack here, Keith, but you know, you and I have covered top rank for a long time. We've covered Bob Aram for a long time. What was your reaction when you got wind of this lawsuit? I was pretty surprised by the racial element to it. Not terribly surprised that Terrence Crawford would file a lawsuit just because I think more than anything,

probably if you had Terrence Crawford in a quiet moment, Chris, I don't think that he believes that he's going to get any damages out of this lawsuit. I think this was more a response to Bob Aram saying some things about Terrence Crawford last year and earlier this year. No, 2021, the end of 2020 and throughout 2021, he had said some disparaging things about Terrence Crawford that, frankly, Bob Aram should not have said. I mean, he's your, he's your fighter. You're working in conjunction with each other, theoretically anyway, to make him as big a star as possible. Terrence Crawford thinks that Bob Aram did all those things or said all those things because he thought or he was convinced that Terrence Crawford was not going to resign the top rank,

which he's not. Bob, you know, look, you know, Bob's a polarizing guy, obviously, and some of those things that he said about Terrence Crawford. He didn't say anything racist about Terrence Crawford. He said some things about Terence Crawford's marketability and the fact that he's not a pay-per-view draw. Newsflash, he's not. Yeah.

You know, I do think in some ways, top rank maybe got some criticism that it didn't solely deserve for the Porter fight for it only doing 135 to 140,000 buys. That, I thought, was more ESPN's fault. And top rank has to, whether people realize this or not or want to accept it or not, Top Rank has to listen to ESPN's directive because they're paying the money. They're the reason Top Rank has this $90 plus million to work with every year in the budget. So they have to do what ESPN said. And ESPN wanted to basically strong-arm people into subscribing to their bundles or ESPN Plus, Disney packages and all that stuff,

by only allowing the Porter Crawford fight to be available through ESPN Plus. that certainly cost them some buys. I'm not saying it was a 500,000 buy pay-per-view fight, but it wasn't a $135,000 buy fight either, and they did some damage there that maybe was not quite top-rank's fault. I'm not really sure what damages Terrence Crawford is looking for, Chris, because I'll say this, he fought twice during the pandemic.

One of those times I was there, and I was at both, but the first time, there were maybe 200 or 300 people in the room because they couldn't bring more people in there than that due to the COVID restrictions at MGM Grand Conference Center. So he was paid $4 million to fight Kellbrook in front of less than 300 people. I don't know what more you're expecting than that. First of all, by the way, you're fighting Kellbrook, a shell of Kellbrook, for starters. Number two, you're being paid $4 million-ish to do that. I don't know what you could really.

And then he was paid $6 million. a $6 million guarantee roughly to fight Sean Porter. So combine the two fights that he that he engaged in during the pandemic, his guarantees were combined roughly $10 million. If that's being wronged by your employer, boy, I'd really like Viacom, CBS to start wronging me and the zone and Sports Illustrated to start wronging you. It's like for context, like there are a handful, maybe less, maybe one or two fighters

that do massive pay-per-view numbers. Really right now, it's Canello, who, you know, can command a $35-plus million-dollar guarantee on his contract. Other than that, like making $4 million and $6 million as a guarantee on a pay-per-view is a big number. There are not a lot of fighters out there that are getting that type of guarantee. But I guess, like, if they want to play semantics and say, I was promised X, I wasn't delivered, you know, that is a breach of contract. I don't know enough about that.

I'm not of the inner workings. But when you accuse someone of racial bias, to me, you better have a smoking gun. Like, you better have an email or a voicemail or 10. I don't know, something, because that's a pretty heavy charge to make Keith, especially against somebody. I mean, Bob's been in the business for like 50 years.

I'm not, I don't know everything about Bob Aram, but as someone that has written multiple profiles on him for SI, who off and on have kind of flirted with doing a book with him in the past. So I've had a lot of conversations with Bob Aram and talking to people, a lot of people that have known Bob Aram over the years, all walks of life, people that he's dealt with over in South Africa when he was doing fights over there. Don King, I've had long conversations with Don King about Bob Aram.

Al Sharpton. I had many conversations with Al Sharpton about Bob Barham. These people had negative things to say about Arab. Don't get me wrong. They weren't like, boy, he's awesome. But racism? Never once did that come up. So that threw me, Keith, because, you know,

and you've covered him a long time now as well. I guess anything's possible. But if you're going to make that kind of accusation, you better have the evidence to back it up. And based on reading that complaint, They're not really specifying anything except for one, you know, you ambiguous kind of quote where he's talking about how, and I'm paraphrasing here, but like, you know,

PBC will say don't listen to the white guy or something like that. So I don't, that to me is not evidence of racial bias. Like, I just don't see it with Bob Aram. Chris, I think maybe the most telling thing that you said there, and it's something that I had thought about suggested today as well. You know, having covered boxing for as long as I have, and of course, as long as you have as well. You know, Don King and Bob Aram would have killed each other had they been able to get away with it once upon a time.

And Don King has said a lot of negative things about Bob Aram. And, you know, some of it has had racial overtones and such. But I've never really heard him say that Bob Aram is a racist. And if Don King is not going to say that Bob Aram is a racist, you'd probably be pretty hard pressed to find other people who would because they were really at each other's throats for decades. And they've since patched it up and they're both 90 years old. and their mellower versions of themselves and such. But, you know, it's a really dangerous game to play in the sense that, you know, Bob obviously says things that he should not say. And, you know, people who work within top rank who care about the company and care about his well-being and all that,

they try to rein him in and get him not to say some of these things. But it's just not going to, he has no filter. He's 90 years old. And I'm not excusing any of the things that he said because I understand. you're still accountable and you're a very prominent person in this sport and you can't just say some of the things that he has said. I wish he didn't say a lot of the things that he said about Terence Crawford because I thought some of those things or most of those things were unnecessary and it just didn't help their relationship at all. So I do think that Terrence, maybe more than anything, is kind of trying to get back at Bob for some of the things that he said because Crawford held his tongue for a very long time. He didn't say anything. negative about Bob. He just kind of, I'm paraphrasing, but I remember him saying something like, well, that's just Bob being Bob. But it had to be hurtful to a guy who thought maybe he was closer to Bob than maybe it turned out to be or whatever. I'm not saying Bob didn't care about him

once upon a time at all. But it had to be hurtful for Crawford, a guy with a lot of pride who I have repeatedly said, despite sometimes him being difficult to deal with, I have repeatedly said on this podcast and other places, you know, you could make a story. strong argument still today that he's the best pound for pound fighter in the world. Now, I get the resume talk. I get all that. But I mean, he's an elite, lead level fighter. I personally think that if he fought Errol Spence to Terrence Crawford would win, but we'd all love to see it. I think maybe that's the most valid claim that he's making in this complaint here that, you know, maybe they made some promises related to the Spence fight that they knew

that they couldn't deliver on. But that's kind of on them, too. They're not naive. I mean, Terrence Crawford is a shrewd dude, man. I mean, he's no dummy. So did he really think that because Bob Aram said they're going to make the Spence fight next, that it was definitely going to happen? I mean, he knows all the obstacles that existed between him and Errol Spence that would have prevented that fight from happening that is still preventing that fight

from happening today. And primarily what I've tried to tell people, Chris, I know you've spoken about this as well. The thing that people need to understand is that both Terrence, Crawford and Errol Spence Jr. think that their fight is worth more in terms of guarantees than anyone who controls the money. So until that changes, the fight will not happen. Now, there are certainly arguments to be made that maybe Crawford wants it more than Errol Spence does based on some of the things that Earl Spence has said. You could certainly lean that way. But the point is that the fight will not happen until they're realistic with

their financial demands. And then I've seen some other things like, oh, well, this is kind of like the Pachial, stop it. It's not. Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pachial was the perfect storm of our lifetimes and it will not be replicated. So just stop saying anyone who thinks it's going to be anything close to that, it won't. Because those guys walked away from that fight with more than $300 million combined. It's a crazy number. Three hundred million dollars combined. You know, Manny Pacquiao, who was the B-side, I guess you'd have to say, right? I mean, he walked away from it with almost $130 million. Now, people don't want to pay, when I say people, I mean, Bob Aram and Al Heyman primarily,

they don't think it's worth paying Terrence Crawford and Errol Spence a combined $25 million in guarantees. So those two things are not comparable. And again, until they, you know, lessen their demands or have some other proof from a pay-per-view perspective, that the fight is worth more than Al Heyman and Bob Aram are convinced that it's worth, it's not going to happen. And it's unfortunate for boxing fans because they deserve that fight. It's the fight that people have wanted to see for the last couple of years and were nowhere closer to it happening than we were two or three years ago,

despite Terrence Crawford not being with top rank. And Crawford made the decision in September of 2018 to resign with top rank. And Errol Spence was out there on the PBC side at that point. other fighters that were on the PBC side, the Keith Thurman's of the world, were out there. I mean, Terrence Crawford is a smart guy.

Like, he had to know when he signed that deal that it wasn't going to be easy to get the fights that he was looking for. He signed that deal, presumably, because it was a really good deal for him, because his guarantees were pretty high,

and he was going to get an opportunity to make more guaranteed money there than anywhere else. So we'll see how this lawsuit plays out, but it was a question. Yeah, sure. Can I just say one other thing, And going through the lawsuit, I saw some perplexing things in this complaint. Like it was written by someone who has virtually no idea what they're talking about.

Now, this is not Terrence Crawford writing this complaint. I understand that. That's why he's paying a lot of money for a legal team to do it. But there were references to Todd DeBuff saying that Todd DeBuff just sits around smiling, waiting for Bob to turn over the business. Anyone who knows anything about top rank knows that Todd DeBuff is running the business. You know, Todd and Brad Jacobs and Carl Moretti and, you know, obviously Brad Goodman and Bruce Trampler from a matchmaking perspective, they're the ones running the

company. Bob is the face of the company and he's the guy that gets quoted and all that because Todd's not really all that comfortable with that. And he, you know, they allow Bob to not allow. I mean, it's his company, but Bob is still the face of the company. And sometimes that's to their detriment, which is why we're in this situation because he has said some things that he unfortunately should not have said. But that doesn't make him a racist because, again, like you said, Chris, you know, I talk to a lot of people in this business, you know, that's my job. I'm constantly talking people just like you are. And people say a lot of things about Bob, and they call him a lot of names, and some of them start with an R. But I've never heard racist. I haven't

heard it. And I haven't, I've personally seen no evidence of him being biased against black fighters. He's always been an advocate for black fighters. The one instance that's fairly obvious to everyone and was a major theme, you know, over the last decade and a half, is he mishandling. Floyd Mayweather. He did. He underestimated Floyd Mayweather's value maybe more than humanly imaginable because look what Floyd Mayweather became. Floyd Mayweather made almost a billion dollars as a boxer. So Floyd Mayweather, Leonard Ellorby, Al-Haiman were completely correct about what Floyd Mayweather could become. And Bob Aram was wrong about that. And to his credit, Bob Aram has repeatedly said, I was wrong about that. I didn't know how to market him to

the black audience. He said it repeatedly. He made a huge mistake. It was a problem and a mistake. And Mayweather's well within his right to complain about that. But I mean, I just don't say, you know, a guy who was an advocate for Muhammad Ali and promoted all these legendary black fighters, George Foreman who came out in Bob's defense yesterday, you know, Marvin Hagler, like legendary fighters, Tommy Hearns, all these guys. I've never heard one of them say that he's a racist. No. I haven't either. So I certainly hope you've got to level an accusation like that. You have something to back it up.

otherwise it's a bad look for Terrence Crawford. We'll see. Yeah, go ahead. One other thing, you better have more proof than something that I don't want to disparage the dead, but you better have more proof than something that the late Bob Lee, who could not have been a more besmirched person in boxing. He served time in federal prison for taking bribes, the former president of the IBM. He's one of the examples they're using in this complaint.

Dillian White is another one. I mean, you better get some more credible. examples than that. Yeah, I agree with you there. All right, let's talk about Canelo Alvarez and what's next for him. Our friend Mike Oppinger went on TV on ESPN, suggesting that there have been talks going on for Canello against Jamal. Charlo, Eddie Renoso took to social media after that, the manager and trainer of Canello. And he basically said there have been no talks as if yet. We're going to get to something in the next few days. Charlo has no opponent. Canelo, we've heard the cruiserweight talk, Keith. You know, 168's got Charlo and David Benavides. You've heard any Rinoza, though, say in the past that they like an idea,

the idea of a fight against Jamal Charles. Do you think we're trending in that direction? I don't think there's an option B, to be honest with you, Chris. I've been saying for a few weeks, I was on the Showtime boxing podcast a few weeks ago, and we're breaking it down. And I just don't see any other way it goes than him fighting Charlo, because primarily no one in their right mind is going to pay Canelo Alvarez anywhere close to the amount of money he's going to want to climb into the ring in the beginning

of May to fight the winner of this cruiserweight fight on January 29th. No one's paying for that. Not Eddie Hearn and DeZone, not Al Haim and Showtime, PBC. No one's paying for it. So that's not and also who's willingly getting into business with Don King at this point? I mean, you might just drive yourself crazy. There's no point to it. And no one cares about the fight. Because the biggest thing about this is this was Eddie Ray Noso's idea, not kill. Canello's and Canello came out and said that a few weeks ago that he didn't even know that Eddie Raynoso was going to propose this at the WBC convention. I thought it was sort of telling that Canello made a point of saying that as if to say, yeah, it would be nice to be a five division world champion. But it ain't the only thing for me, basically.

So for him to be paid the amount of money that he's going to want to be paid, which is going to be more than his guarantee for the Caleb Plant fight, he's going to have to fight Jamal Charlo because that's the most commercially viable fight. in which he can make that kind of money. People have wanted to see that fight for quite some time. Charlo wants the fight. He's obviously more than willing to move up to 168 pounds to make it happen. I'm interested in the Dimitri Bivol fight, but I'm less interested in that than I am in the Charlo or Benavides fight. He clearly favors fighting Charlo next over Benavitas.

He has said it openly in public. And I don't know that if you're DeZone and Eddie, you know, you're dangling moving back up to light heavyweight to fight Bivol as the fight to come back to the zone, which is a real fight. It's a good fight. It's an interesting fight. Bivol is not a huge light heavyweight, not as nearly as big of a puncher as Bartor Beterbiev. So the fight would make sense for Canelo. I just don't know that the way the zone is going about its business now. They're supposed to spending a lot of money, but they're not spending the way that they once did. Could you justify trying to, I mean, you're going to pay him $35 to $40 million? to compete with what he would make for fighting Charlo, to just for a temporary public relations win, because he's not going to sign a multi-fight deal with anyone anymore. He's just going to go from fight to fight because he has the leverage to do that. And I don't blame him.

He's going to get every penny out of it that he can. He's the biggest star in a sport. He should. Yeah. So I think we're trending towards Charlo, too. I think one one thing I've heard from talking to people around all this

is that it will be interesting to see if Al Hayman, PBC is willing to do another one-fight deal with Canelo because that would mean that they've essentially served up two of their best fighters at that weight class

for one-fight type of deals. Everybody wants to make a long-term commitment with Canello. Canello just doesn't want to do it. And so I guess I'll be interested to see if PBC is willing to put up the, I'm just 40, 45 million total, 50 million total, whatever it may be, to get a Canello-Charlo fight made for a one-fight deal with no guarantee of what Canello is going to do in September.

Because, Keith, if he fight Charlo in May, I don't, he's not going to fight Benevedes in September. Like, that's not going to happen. So it seems more likely than not that he goes to Charlo, takes that fight, collects a big check, probably wins by knockout. And then moves on to the other option we're talking about. We're talking about Beevil being on that list. Maybe at that point we're talking about Golofkin, if they can ever get this Golofgan Marauda fight over the finish line. So that's kind of what the, it's kind of the intel I've been hearing lately.

Like will, will Al put up the money for Canelo Charlo knowing, unless he gets a commitment for one more fight from Canello? I mean, that's obviously an important question to answer, Chris, but I don't think Al will have much choice to do that because I think he's going to want to be involved in a big event. And also, what is he doing with Jamal Charlo at this point? He's not, well, that's not even entirely, let's not even go down. It's entirely separate conversation. go down this rabbit hole, again, but he's not fighting Andrade. He's not fighting Triple G for, I don't know that Triple G is necessarily interested in that either. So, so who is Charlo going to fight? He's going to be 32 years old in May. He's undefeated. He had a bit of a, I wouldn't say a rough

time. It was a more difficult fight than I think people thought in his last fight against Montiel. But, you know, I don't know. I'm not saying he's taking training any less seriously or anything that because there's no evidence that he's doing that, but maybe he's getting a little bored. He wants a huge fight. He wants to fight Canelo. He wants to prove himself against the, you know, the pound for pound best fighter in the sport. So if that opportunity is there now and there's literally no reason that it can't happen, except that you want another fight, another one or two fights in terms of a commitment from Canello, I think, I think Haman will do it. I mean, he won't like it maybe necessarily because, of course, you want to be in business with Canello for as long as

possible. But also you might be looking at it. I mean, you know, maybe they think I would favor Canello over Charlo. It's not a gimmie. There's no layup. But you would have to favor Canello to win the fight. But maybe from PBC's perspective, they think that Charlo has a better chance of winning the fight than a lot of other people. So maybe they're, you know, maybe that's their chance to turn Charlo into a much bigger star than he is at the moment by knocking off Canello. You know, and then and I'm sure there's going to be a rematch clause in there and everything. And then they might have to fight twice, you know? So then you have two huge events.

I'm resisting the urge to rebut the Charleau wants to prove himself statement. Because he could have done that over the last couple of years. Oh, God. Jesus. Just saying. Didn't Andrade even tell you to stop talking about this? Weren't he chastised by Andrade himself? When I heard that, I was like, man, he can't catch a break.

That guy himself has heard enough of this shit already. I mean, come on. It was like a YouTube video circulating of Andrade going at me at our fighter meeting. And like, look, Demetrius knows I'm his staunch advocate out there. He just wants me to lay off the Charlo stuff because he sees Mungia and Golofkin being more mech. But he might be right. I just, I just care more about two undefeated American middleweights fighting each other. I'm with you.

I would like to see the fight also. But one thing I've been told over the last couple of years is that the zone people have been told unequivocally. that Ganadi Golovkin is not fighting Demetrius Andh. Oh, yeah. Don't ask. So don't ask. Yeah. So that's not even really an option.

And that's got to be really frustrating for Anderrate, obviously, because he's with this streaming service. He's undefeated. He has a middleweight title. And these people that are affiliated with the same network. And, you know, Eddie Hernandez not technically Golofkin's promoter, but they're affiliate, you know, whatever they're doing together. And he still can't get the fight.

So I understand. I think Eddie's on the outs with Golofka at this point after, uh, his comments after the Liam Williams fight, where he kind of went after Golofkin there a little bit for not, for waiting until the show. He was trying to enticing them to get to take the fight. My issue now, like, where I'm coming around on the Andrade's side on this, not to make this about him, but like Mungia is going to fight Demetrius Ballard.

Like, look, I was okay with Mungia taking a few fights at 160 pounds to kind of get used to the weight. I was okay with Gabe Rosado. That's a pretty decent test for him. but he, you know, I didn't dominate Gabe, but won pretty convincingly against Rosado. And, you know, Andrew is out there. Like, he's sitting out there, you know,

willing to put his middleweight title in the line. And we're going to Demetri's ballot who fought on the undercard of Mungi and didn't look good. Had to go the distance with Paul Valenzuela. Like, I don't know what Mungia gets us. And I've said this to Golden Boy. I've said, you know, Eric Gomez was on this podcast a few weeks ago. I'm like, you know, it's not like I think, like,

Andrea might lose that fight. Like, Mungia is pretty good. Like, he's gotten a lot better over. the years with his volume punching. I think his chin's pretty solid. Like, you've got to keep pace with Jaime Mungia to beat him. I would have preferred them go straight to Mungia andrade, but they're going to wait for Golofkin, too.

It's like everybody's waiting for somebody, Keith. It's like we can't get two people that actually want to fight each other. They're all waiting for something else. And meanwhile, you're paying for fights that people don't necessarily want to see. Yeah, it's a greater problem. Welcome to boxing, right? To boxing again. All right.

As we're recording this, Philip Hurgovich, C, you know, seems like he has an opponent in that IBF eliminator. He and Tony Yoka are engaged in negotiations. So I'll frame the question, Keith, to you a little bit differently. Over the last, like, six months, we have had Michael Hunter turn down a chance to fight Philip Hergevich. Perkovich in our fighter meeting a couple weeks back called Hunter a coward for that. He was pretty strong on that one.

Recently, it's been Luis Ortiz, who quickly declined to enter negotiations there. It was Joseph Parker decline. Now, there are plenty of reasons why these guys. won't fight Hergovich, especially the last two, because Ortiz and Parker could probably get something more economically viable in the next six months before than Hergevich is. But is it surprised you that we're kind of going down the list in an IBF title Eliminator and we stop at Tony Yoka,

who has done nothing to warrant a, you know, Eliminator opportunity? It doesn't, only because Philip Hergevick is a high risk, low reward type of proposition, right? I mean, why would, Louise Ortiz is not going to fight Philip Herger. It makes no sense, right? I mean, yeah, he could get closer to a title shot, but he was knocked down twice by Charles Martin, obviously came back to land a big shot and win the fight. But, you know, he's showing signs of whatever age he actually is.

He's not going to fight Hergerick. And I don't blame Joseph Parker either. Joseph Parker's been in a lot of tough fights, wants to get back into position to fight for a title. He now is going to have to go through this guy now. I don't blame him. I wouldn't do it either. And there is some history. Now they have, I think, 11 and 14 fights, respectively, Hergevik and Yoka.

So there's history between them. They fought three times in the amateurs. Yoka beat them in that you were at ringside for the semifinals of the super heavyweight tournament in 2016 in Rio. So there's a lot of history there, and it's an interesting fight. And I give Tony Yoka a lot of credit because I've seen much more from Hergavik as a pro than I've seen from Tony Yoka. So he would seem to me to be more prepared for the fight than Yoka. So it speaks to Yoka's confidence that he's willing to take this type of fight and what would I believe be his 12th fight.

So, you know, there's some intrigue there. You would rather see that type of fight happen a little further down the line. But kudos to both guys for being willing to do it. Now, they have to come to an agreement here. I mean, all he has agreed to today so far is to enter negotiations. So they have to, you know, get this deal done and everything. But if the money is there, you know, there's no reason why they can't. fight and it's an interesting fight between two very good undefeated young heavyweights and um you know

joseph parker can go fight someone else to uh to try to inch closer toward a title shot and uh and same for louis ortiz and one thing to remember to in in the grand scheme of eliminators like the ibf you know the winner of this fight's not going to get a title shot this year i would imagine like the ibf is i believe way down in the queue for uh mandatories and you're probably going to see a unification fight between Fury and the winner of Joshua and Usik before the end of the year. So it's not like you take this opportunity and bam, heavyweight title shot coming this summer. You're going to have to wait your turn for a while and probably have to take another fight or maybe two fights in between. If you're Parker who has shown he can make some money Ortiz.

You're trying to cash out maybe against the Andy Ruiz type or something. There's plenty more financially viable options there for you. But look, I think it's a good fight, Hergovich against Yoke. I probably would have preferred Hergevich against someone like Jean-Gillet, like because maybe you could have made it more, maybe it's more of a U.S. fight then. Maybe it's maybe you can do it even in China. I don't know, like in that area, Macau, something like that.

I mean, that's kind of a big event. I know Eddie Hearn has kind of eyeballed, you know, big fights with Zhang over in China at some point. Usually they involve Anthony Joshua, those talks. But, yeah, I'd be curious to see what kind of fan base he has over there in a big professional fight. And John Jolet is an older fight, Chris. I mean, he's looking for this type of opportunity. Oh, yeah.

He's been stuck in, you know, during the pandemic. He got stuck in China a couple times. And he trains actually here in New Jersey, only a few towns away from where I live. I'm very familiar with him and his story and everything. He can fight. I mean, he's just looking for the right, you know, dance partner, so to speak. And it would have been nice to see him get that opportunity.

But it looks like Eddie's going to find him an opportunity elsewhere. You and John go for a slice or two in, Jersey every so often. He lives a couple towns away from me, right? And it's not a town where there are a lot of Chinese people. There are a lot of Italian people. And he's six foot six. And like I've asked him, I said, well, you know, you're a huge dude.

Like what, like, and he a lot of people think he's a basketball player because he's so tall and everything. So, you know, but he gets a lot of, yeah. And he lives with Meng Fanlong, who's his former Olympic teammate and everything. And they're trained by the same guy, Sean. George and everything. So, no, to answer your question, no, we don't go out for whatever you, whatever you said we go out for.

Place a pizza, you know. More summer. We're both watching our carbs, obviously. All right. Let me finish with this, Keith. Joe Smith fights this weekend are initially supposed to face Callum Johnson, which I was really interested in because you'd have two kind of heavy hitters going at it in a fight that probably would have ended by knockout.

Jonathan had to bow out because of COVID. You've got Steve Gephard stepping in. Geffard's won 18 fights in a row, but very low-level type of opponents. So not huge expectation for Gephard coming into this fight. What I'm curious about Keith is less this fight than what's kind of next for Joe Smith because there are going to be a lot of interested parties out there in Joe Smith. If your top rank, maybe you want to try to make that Joe Smith better be a fight, which would be for three belts in 175-pound division.

If you're Canello, Joe Smith gets through this fight. Does he enter those sweepstakes? Like, I doubt it, but, you know, he's got a light heavyweight belt. He's an American. You can probably market that fight pretty decently, especially if you're willing to do the fight in New York. Daniel Jacobs is back out there. He's fighting in February.

That's someone, that's a fight that's been talked about between those two guys over the last few weeks or so. So assuming Joe Smith gets through this fight relatively unscathed, what do you see as the future for him in the light heavyweight division? Look, the obvious fight to make, Chris, and the fight that people have wanted to see is Joe Smith against Artur Betterbeyev. He's the biggest knockout puncher in boxing among world champions. It's knocked out every pro opponent. He's 17 and 0 with 17 knockouts.

That fight should be able to be made because they're both co-promoted by top rank. The way it was explained to me, Joe Smith was not happy with a financial offer he received a fight better. He wants more money for the fight. If he gets that money, that fight can be put together. It would be a big event either in Montreal at Bell Center or at Madison Square Garden, or you could put it on Long Island, you know, where the NASA, whatever they call the Nassau Coliseum now. It's a refurbished building. That would be perfect because Joe Smith will draw a lot of fans from Long Island for the fight.

So you can make some money at the gate in this fight, whether you put it in Canada or New York. It's a very intriguing fight. That's the fight that seems to make the most sense. Um, the reason I say that I would say that Canello doesn't make sense is because the fight would be done in conjunction with top. It would have to be done in conjunction with top rank because Canello doesn't have really have a promoter. Uh, top rank under no circumstances going to pay Canelo Alvarez, uh, 35 million, 40 million, 30 million, 25, you know, you can keep going lower. They're not, they're not doing it. So, and I've been told that unequivocally. So, um, while yes, I think Canello and Joe Smith would be a good fight to have at Madison Square Garden. and it would draw well,

top rank's not going on the hook for Canello's guarantee. So my best advice for people who want to see Joe Smith fight Canello Alvarez is to forget it, because I don't think it's going to happen. I kind of agree with you, but I'd love to see it, man. Like, that's just... I would love to, me too, but yeah. That's just being realistic, you were at the garden when Canello fought Rocky Fielding. He's typically a Vegas fighter.

That atmosphere was awesome. Like, that atmosphere was so good. it convinced Anthony Joshua to fight there six months later. Like, that's how good that atmosphere. That didn't work out so great. Well, financially, ultimately it did. So maybe it's all a big way. Watch this.

Here it comes. And then you collect that Middle East money six months after that. So, you know, that is true. His pockets were lined. I think maybe something that people from the outside might not have realized is that there is a large contingent of Mexican people in the New York, New Jersey area, a lot in northern New Jersey, in particular, a lot of Mexican people here

and Canello is beloved. So, you know, so we fight to anybody at Madison Square Garden and I think it'll do well, but particularly Joe Smith, because as you said, Joe has a big fan base out there on Long Island as well. So I guess, you know, the one thing that Joe mentioned to me, I spoke to him for a long time

on the phone last week, and he does this, he mentions this every time I'd speak to him, basically, he wants a rematch with Bivol. Now, that's not as marketable as the Better B'EV fight or the Canello fight because Bival Why does he want that? What does he tell you about?

Like, because I was at that fight. And I actually said this to Joe like a year ago. I was like, Joe, like, that's one of those fights where like, you know, nine times out of ten, maybe nine times out of 100, you're probably not going to win. But Bevol, like, is just a, his skill levels to cut above. And unless you catch him, which Joe almost did late in that fight, it's just a tough fight for him to win. Well, what you just said there, Chris, is the reason why he wants another opportunity, because he did catch him at the end of the 10th.

I think it was a 10th or 9th or 10th or 11th. I think it was something like that. Good shot. Write the bell. Yeah. Him with a really good right hand. And Bivol was hurt. You could tell by the way he reacted

and the way he walked back to his corner that he was hurt. If Joe Smith had 10 to 15 more seconds in that round, he might have knocked Dmitri Bivvall out. He keeps that that sticks in his mind so much that Joe Smith has a clip of that on his phone, that he keeps on his phone and that he looks at on occasion to remind himself of what could have happened that night in March 2019. I was at ringside for the fight as well. And he wants his rematch. Now, he does realize that the better be a fight is a bigger fight now. And Canello, who doesn't want to fight Canello and make as much money as possible?

Of course, he would want that. But he wants Bibol in the ring again. Now, he lost virtually every round of the fight. The other thing that he told me, though, that, you know, he's not really an excuse maker, Joe Smith. He's kind of like, you know, he's a, you know, a hardworking, you know, man's man and he's not looking to make excuses, but he did say that he had trained several times to fight Bettev. And the fight was promised to him after Bader Bév fought Callum Johnson. And then for whatever reason, the fight didn't happen. So he had been training, then not training, and training and not training. The short version of this is that he thinks he might have been over trained going into the Bibol fight. Now, Bibow is still an excellent boxer, a very smart fighter, not the biggest puncher

among light heavyweights, but very tough to beat. But he thinks he's a lot of. He thinks he's a lot of he might have been overtrained. He can't get over the fact that he might have knocked him out had he had 10 or 15 more seconds in that 10th round, I believe. So for him, that's what he wants. What we want, obviously, is the better be a fight. And just one thing, Chris, I spent a decent amount of time on the phone with Steve Geffar the other day. Guys got a really interesting story. I don't know if he has much chance to win the fight because he's literally fought nobody. He's been a pro for nine years. And boy, has he been matched soft. But he lost, you know, he was managed by Shelley Finkel, promoted by Golden Boy had a very good amateur background as a heavyweight and then turned pro as a cruiser

weight got stopped in his pro debut. He got a really bad cut on his forehead in a fight he was winning, but he lost by technical knockout, came back to the ring like three and a half months later and lost again, lost a split decision to a guy who was 0.1 and one. And Golden Boy said, all right, that's enough with you losing fights. Take it easy. And Shelley Finkel did the same thing. He disassociated himself with Steve Geffrard as well. So he met this businessman again. He guy who owned a like this huge chain of like home depot type of stores on Long Island in Connecticut and New Jersey. The guy was very wealthy, lived down in Boca Raton.

He saw Steve Geffrard sparring against Glenn Johnson one day and he used to go to the gym and he had invested in other fighters and he said, well, who's this guy? And he said, well, believe it or not, he's 0 and 2 and blah, blah, blah. And he became his manager and he helped rebuild his career. and unfortunately he died. His former manager passed away in July of 2019. So obviously we'll never get him to get to see him fight for the title. But it's a pretty incredible story because he was,

he was supposed to fight a guy last Saturday night who was 7 and 8 or 7,8, 1, or something like that, which is a ridiculous opponent for someone who's 18 and 2 to be fighting. But he was in the sauna losing weight to go way in that day. And Kevin Cunningham, who's a really good trainer and tends not to waste his time with guys who can't fight, so maybe he can fight a little better than we think. Kevin called and say, look, you can fight Joe Smith next. We'll scrap this thing, get out of the sauna and, you know, fight Joe Smith next Saturday night. He called Erickson Lubin, who's this very close friend who we actually lived with once upon a time.

And Erickson said, you've got to take the fight, man. I mean, you're 31 years old. It's a great opportunity to take the fight. He called Kevin Cunningham back, and boom, he's fighting Joe Smith instead of some guy from Argentina who was seven and eight. whatever happened Saturday night. That's an amazing story. It's an incredible story. And I'll credit to him for taking a fight like this

on what eight days notice when he officially got it. It's really remarkable that he won't do it. His chances to me are all about, can you keep Joe Smith off you for 12 rounds? And, you know, like, that's tough. Like, he's relentless when he comes at you. And the guy can crack, that's for sure. You know, to kind of pivot it back to Canello.

I mean, I don't, I get what you're saying. Top rank wouldn't put up that type of cash. I'm just like is there more if Joe Smith comes through this fight clean like unscathed is there a more marketable fight for Canelo in May than Joe Smith like if you do it in New York like kind of you move up to light heavyweight you fight this guy with a fan base in New York City you do it at Mass Square Garden like you know there are other good fights charlo is a decent fight Bevo is a decent fight um you know if you're looking to sheer marketability though a fight like that that might be the biggest one let me ask you because I from a gate standpoint

point the fight would do big business in new york there's no two two ways two ways about that but from a pay-per-view perspective a pay-per-view perspective i think that canelo charlo is a bigger fight i mean there there's no way that that canelo charlo would not do more pay-per-view buys than canello joe smith i would that that's personally that's what i think you're probably right no you you're probably right um i don't think it's a huge gap um but you're probably right you know charlo's got a fan base and he's undefeated. He'll certainly sell the fight really well during that fight week. So yeah, I can see that. Yeah, it's close. It's close. I just... Go ahead. Chris, I wouldn't be surprised if Canelo Charlo did more pay-per-view buys than Canelo Plant, because I think people would

perceive Charlo as a lot, a more live underdog in the fight than they viewed Caleb Plant as being. Of course, if he's fighting Joe Smith, he's got to move up to light heavyweight. Joe Smith's a banger. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross

double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it.

Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tript Fantine, Ryan Clark,

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro.

Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. person. Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway and listen now. That went against, he didn't look good in his last fight against Vasoff. He did not look good at all, but he looked fantastic against Alvarez. He didn't look, I don't think he ever looked better than he did against the Lider Alvarez,

including when he fought Bernard Hopkins because Bernard Hopkins was 50 years old when they thought, you know. So I think that's the best win of Joe Smith's career against Alvarez, who Gephard, who he's fighting on Saturday night, actually has sparred in multiple camps with Alvarez, Artur Better Bettev, Sullivan Barrera, Sergey Kovalev. So he's been in the ring with all of the top light heavyweights of this era for the most part, except Joe Smith. So he's been in there with some really good fighters, just not in real fights. And of course, when the bright lights come on, we'll see how he does. Yeah. I'm coming to you, by the way, for all Steve Gephardt information, forward. You are a Steve Geffordologist. Listen, I'm going to, I'm going to write a Steve

Geffrod book. I don't think anyone's going to buy it outside of Steve Geffrod's family. Hey, it's a great story. Like you said, I mean, get dropped by your promoter, get dropped by your manager, claw your way back of 18 wins. And if he's able to pull this off, that would be, I mean, wow, that would be a hell of the story for sure. Okay. Keith, good to talk to you, man. We will catch up sometime soon. Same here, Chris. Take care, man. When we come back, a new element of the podcast. brought to you by family. Look, we're all adults here, and I know some of us choose to use nicotine

to relax, focus, or just unwind after a long day. Lucy is a modern oral nicotine company that makes nicotine gum, lozenges, and pouches for adults who are looking for the best, most responsible way to consume their nicotine. It's a new year? Why not start it out by switching to a new nicotine product that you can feel good about? If you enjoy using nicotine, you should definitely check out Lucy's products at lucy.com. That's Lucy. Lucy. dot CO and use the promo code boxing at checkout. Also, I have to read this disclaimer.

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Go to careerbuilder.com today or get left with whatever jobs are left. Find your next job fast at careerbuilder.com. Fight fans, throw your best haymaker with a risk-free bet from Fandul's sportsbook. Even if your fighter gets knocked out or tapped out, new customer. Get up to $1,000 back if your first bet doesn't win. Just sign up with the promo code boxing, and you'll be able to bet on all the biggest boxing matches and UFC fights. Thanduel offers all your favorite bets.

Choose from the money line to the method of victory, to which round the fight will end, and so much more. You can even parlay different fight bets together, the bigger your parlay, the bigger your potential payout becomes. I like a couple of bets for this upcoming light heavyweight title bet, between Joe Smith Jr. and Steve Geprard. Stick around for that later in the podcast. I get deeper into those.

Fandul is America's number one sportsbook and is now live in New York. I am a part-time New Yorker. I'm pretty happy to be in New York. A lot of my friends over the years, they were driving to New Jersey to make bets on Fandul. Now they get to stay in New York City and make the bets right there.

The app is so easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid out in as little as two hours. To place your bet risk-free, just sign up with the promo code boxing and make every fight mean more with the Fandul Sportsbook app. All right, so on this podcast in 2020,

we are going to add some more gambling elements to this, courtesy of our good friends over at Fandul. And we're going to stay locked in this weekend on the light heavyweight title fight between Joe Smith Jr. and Steve Gaffrod. This is a title defense for Smith and a huge opportunity for Gephran, who is coming in as a massive underdog. As big as those odds are, as wide as those odds are for Gephrat,

I can't bring myself to betting on him in this fight. Joe Smith is minus 1,600 going into this fight. That's a big number, but I'm that confident that he's going to win. Joe has looked excellent in recent fights. he knocked out Alvarez. He has a win over Bernard Hopkins. He won his last fight, even though it was close, against Maxine Vlassoff by decision,

so he's shown he can win in a variety of different ways. Take Joe Smith as my lock of the week. Now, if you're looking for a prop bet, you got to go with Joe Smith by knockout. Again, not great odds for something like this. Joe is minus 440 to win this fight by knockout. But Geffrard has never fought anyone on the level of Joe Smith.

He's won 18 fights in a row, but they have been effectively against club level opposition. He has taken this fight on eight days notice. So even though he was training for another fight, he wasn't training for Joe Smith. And I've seen a lot of Joe Smith fights. Keeping Joe Smith off of you

is a very, very hard thing to do. So I'm taking Joe Smith to win, and I'm taking Joe Smith to win by knockout, all courtesy of our friends over at Fandul. That's it for this week's episode, my thanks to Keith Ideck for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you can download podcast. And we'll see you next week, when maybe we'll find Sergio Amora. Manix, I'm a man on the run and I'm not doing your fucking

podcast. We're not doing it, bro. I'm a man on the run. On the run. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call

it grotesque, others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, And so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to bowl your mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep. That's me. Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliford Show. This is a place for raw unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to The Cliford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human.