The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Wilder Wildin’

Episode Date: December 28, 2023

Joining Mannix this week is longtime boxing journalist Kevin Iole. Mannix and Iole unpack the rumors of Endeavor buying Top Rank (8:30), dive into Joseph Parker’s stunning upset of Deontay Wilder (26:10), sort through Wilder’s strange post-fight comments, examine Anthony Joshua’s win and more. Subscribe, rate, and review the pod on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you download podcasts. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor.

It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The volume. All I want for the holidays this year is some NBA action. This week, new customers can score 150 instantly in bonus bets just for betting five bucks, an instant dub just for you. Download the Drafting Sportsbook app now and use code Manix.

New customers can get 150 instantly in bonus bets for betting just $5 on basketball. all, only on Draft King's sportsbook with code Manix. The crown is yours. Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler. In New York, call 8778, Hope N. Or text Hope N.Y 467369. In West Virginia, visit 1-800 gambler.net.

Please play responsibly. In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling. Call 8887-8-8-8-9-77 or visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boothill Casino Resort, Kansas, must be 21 or older in most eligible states, but age varies by jurisdiction. See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for details and state-specific responsible gambling resources. Eligibility deposit restrictions apply. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance terms at sportsbook.

draft kings.com slash basketball terms. This is boxing with Chris Mannix. Or somebody punch him in the face. Anthony Joshua is a compulsive. and ferocious finisher. Watch this. Hosted by S.I's Chris Mannix. That was my moment.

Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. And we are back. Boxing with Chris Manix, part of the volume sports podcast.

Network back from Saudi Arabia. Yes, the long trip from Saudi was completed in time to get home for Christmas Eve dinner. I loved how we got back. We left the day of reckoning event in Saudi right after the fight ended. Last fight ended. We went straight to an airport where we caught a flight from Riyadh to London.

And then Sergio and I went from London to Los Angeles, which was, I think, an 11 or a 12-hour flight. I slept for most of it. Sergio was up and about, took some compromising pictures of me. I didn't like that. I turned around and took some compromising pictures of him. He didn't like that. So it's kind of a standoff there with the pictures that we have of each other. So if he doesn't release his, I'm not released in mind.

We made it back in time for Christmas Eve. Great to be part of the Day of Reckoning in Saudi Arabia. Just a surreal event to be a part of, to see so many great fighters on the same card. And look, we acknowledge that for several of them, it was a showcase fight. The Philip Herkovich fight against Mark DeMori. was an absolute joke. Mark DeMori had no business being in the ring with Philip Parker. But you had Giopatai, best cruiserweight in the world going out and showing why against Elisoro. And then when you got to the, quote, main portion of the card, you had a sloburnocker

of a fight between Jarrell Miller and Daniel Dubois. You had a huge upset with Joseph Parker upending Deonté Wilder. And then you had a great performance by Anthony Joshua, who looks the closest to the old Anthony Joshua that I have seen in quite some time. So a great night in Riyadh for boxing. Kevin Ioli, long-time boxing journalist for Yahoo, for other outlets. He is now writing for his own website, and he joins me to talk about all of that. We talk about Wilder, where he goes from here, AJ, where he goes from here. We also get into the rumors about top rank being for sale and Endeavor, the parent company of UFC and WWE,

being the potential buyer. A lot of stuff out there on social media. We dive into all that, tell you what's true, what's not, and what's possible when it comes to top rank and endeavor potentially forming one company. So stick around for that.

Great conversation with Kevin Ioli. Hope everyone had a great Christmas. Hope everybody has a great new year. And we'll be back with this podcast, same time as usual, same day as usual, next week. For now, here's Kevin Ioli, long-time journalist with Yahoo Sports. All right, Kevin Ioli is here,

longtime boxing and mixed martial arts writer now writing at his own website, Kevinioly.com, which launched, well, it's been launched for a while, I guess, right, Kevin, but launched in earnest as the full-time home of your boxing and MA content just this month, correct? Really in earnest in January, so it's going to, you know, but I've had the site for a while,

but yeah, since I left Yahoo, I've been writing since December 1st at Kevin Ioli.com, and there'll be a new website in an app in January, and it's going to look great. All right, looking forward to that. And look, covering two sports you have more than enough to talk about. It seems like every single week. So a lot of content to provide on that website. Kevin, I want to start the show with something I didn't expect to start the show talking about just a couple of days ago.

And that was the recent social media. reporting surrounding Top Rank. People in boxing probably caught wind of this during the week where Rick Glazer, who is a longtime boxing person, you know, boxing supplier, whether it's opponents, sparring partners, whatever, he's been involved in boxing for a long time. He put out on social media that Top Rank was in the final stages of a sale that would have top rank bought by Endeavor, which is the parent company of UFC, WWE, and folded into that umbrella. Now, that was subsequently denied quite strongly by all the parties involved.

Dana White denied it on social media. I know he talked to you. Todd DeBuff denied it. Bob Aram denied it. Pretty much everyone that is connected on a high level to this report, denied the accuracy of it. So having done some reporting of your own, what do you make of this? Do you think there is any truth to the possibility that top rank could be swallowed up by endeavor? Well, you know, this had been going around maybe a year ago, right? And top rank had a deck out there potentially to sell the company.

Dana was talking about getting into boxing at that time. And they're, you know, so I don't want to say this part is accurate because you know the long time feelings between top rank and UFC, especially Dana White toward top rank. But he said, you know, I would never buy them. This was a year ago. I would never buy top rank because it's a disaster, right? And then they just said basically financially, it wouldn't make sense for them to do it. Now, it does make sense on one hand, right? I mean, they already have a deal with ESPN, which is coming up, though.

And that has to be considered when you consider whether this is an accurate report or not. In 2025, their deal with ESPN is coming up, meaning UFC's. Top ranks is right around the same time. So what would be the point of them acquiring the company right now? I do not believe that there's anything going on at the moment. They just acquired the WWE and they created a company called TKO, which is actually the parent company of the UFC and WWE right now. And would it be out of the realm of possibility for them to acquire top rank or another boxing promoter or two and do this down on the road? I think it might make sense for them, but not now.

I think that, you know, right now they got off to kind of a rough start, which is picked up with the WWE acquisition. And I think going forward, you know, they want to get that house in order. And I think it will be in order fairly soon. And then they can think about it. But there's nothing going on from everything, everybody I have talked to and everything I would think is realistic. I don't think anything is going on there. Yeah, these denials were pretty strong from all the parties involved. And I wonder if they would be quite so strong if there was some truth to it.

All that being said, even if there's not truth to it in the moment, I agree with you. I think there can be truth to it in the very near future for a few reasons. One, as you pointed out, top rank has been for sale in the past. Like this is not some out of nowhere reporting. that top rank is, is up for sale. This is, they've explored it. It is recently, you know, a few years ago, like when DeZone was spending a lot of money, there was some conversation about DeZone getting into the top rank business and buying

in to top rank. Other companies have kicked around the idea of buying top rank. I know PBC had talked about getting into some kind of partnership with top rank. So everybody's kind of kicked the tires on buying top rank, in part because Bob Barham is 92 years old. And while Bob is still, is more of a figurehead now than what he used to be, Bob's probably the biggest reason top rank still exist in the form that it exists in. Because look, Todd Dubuff, the president is, you know, more of a television guy. You know, he wants to be in that part of the business. They'll have good boxing people, Carl Marlady,

Bruce Trampler, among others, Brad Goodman. Like, there are really top-level boxing people within that company. But if Bob were not there, I wonder what top rank would be or how long top rank would be owned by the current people that own. So that's number one. Number two,

Dana White has long professed a desire to get into the boxing business to the point where when I was over at that UFC offices a couple of years ago, Kevin, I'm sure you've seen the same thing. Like he had an entire wing built out for boxing staff.

Like it was, he had offices there that he was telling me were specifically designed for, you know, boxing executives to be there. Now, that was a few years ago back when times were different. But this current model with the people that are involved there, Nick Con is now involved in all this. Now, Nick Con is a longtime agent. He used to work for CIA, did a lot, did the deal with top rank in ESPN, and has a strong love and affection for boxing. He was once Freddie Broch's agent.

Maddie Pachial's manager. Maddie Pachial, like he's been in the boxing business forever. One of the smartest guys, too, that you'll come across in the boxing space. He is the president of WWE, which now is in a partnership with UFC and Endeavour. Go by Endeavour basically. Yeah. Yeah, it goes along with. So having Nick Conn there tells me that.

the interest in boxing is real. Because I think Nick Con's interest in boxing is real. I think he does. Well, I think you're making a leap there. So I don't think that, so let me just interrupt you. I don't think Nick Con was brought in to help facilitate any move.

No, no, no. But I think because he's there, it helps. There, I think is just coincidental. Well, maybe. But it does, it does make it more realistic to be properly involved with boxing when you've got

someone who understands the boxing space in the same way that Nick understands the boxing space. Dana White does not understand the boxing space. He is great in the mixed martial arts space, but boxing is an entirely different animal altogether. Nick Con understands that. So I would disagree with that contention, too. I mean, I think he understands the space that they're in. I just think he looks at it and he's been proven successful. You're not going to really be profitable in that space the way it's run right now. And Dana White is not about running a promotion to get patted on the back and, hey, you know, you did a great job of selling boxing.

Dana White is, you know, in it to make money. And I think that, you know, he feels like the way boxing is, he loves boxing, right? You and I both know that. A lot of the boxing fans dislike him because I think he hates boxing and he takes shots at it. But I know, like I talked to when big fights are come up, who are you betting on, what do you think? And we talk about boxing matches all the time.

He loves it. That was his first thing. But I think he just feels business-wise. It's an abysible business the way it has been run. And so it's difficult to make money in it right now. It's very difficult to make money right now. All I'm saying is I think Nick understands the nuances of it, the inner workings of it, a lot better than Dana does at this point.

And that's not a knock on Dana. It's just that Nick has been more involved in it in more recent past than Dana has. Not that he doesn't love it. And believe me, every time I've talked to Dana, The passion is real. He watches boxing every single week. He's into it. He would like to see it fixed.

He would like to be the one to fix it. He's involved with Callum Walsh, I think, is a net positive for boxing. I just think Nick understands it a little bit better and understands the complexities of doing deals in it a little bit better. And that's what, that is what the asset. The complicated part of all this is that top rank really isn't worth a lot, honestly. Like, it's library. is worth a lot, right?

Like it's collection of old fights, all the fights they did from, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, that is worth real money because they can get, you can get paid off that. If you acquired that, you can get paid off that for, in perpetuity, you know,

for generations to come, that's worth something. Other than that, Kevin, it's not worth a heck of a lot because the fighter contracts are quite frankly not worth a heck of a lot. How much is the contract for Tafi... Like, how much is the contract for Tafinolope?

really work worth. Chakur Stevens' contract is coming up. How much is that right now really worth? Some of the young guys they have on their roster, Jared Anderson, Keishon Davis, like how much of those contracts really worth? So finding a price that makes sense

for top rank and for Endeavor might be a little bit tricky, I would think, because you just, I just don't know how much that company is worth outside of what its library has value. Well, that's what, you know, there was just a recent, you know, and I don't want to say sale, acquisition in MMA, the Professional Fighters League, which has a deal on ESPN, acquired Bellator,

which had been on Showtime and was owned by Paramount. And everybody referred to it as the sale. And it was not a sale. They acquired assets of the company for no money, no money exchanged hands. And I think, you know, that shows you sort of what the path forward would be in this. the other thing I reason, Chris, I want to say was why I think it may not be accurate at this time or probably is not accurate at this time is Dana's vehemence about no, he is now the chief executive officer of the UFC and of TKO. And if he is saying publicly on a publicly traded

company, no, we're not doing this. And that's a lie. Then I think that that gets them into trouble, with the federal government, right? I mean, they can't just, you know, they're not an independent company. They can buy what they want or not. You know, they're a publicly traded company now. And so what they say publicly affects investors. And as a result of that, I just don't think it is. And it was funny because when I, after I talked to Dana and Todd and I put out a message

on social media about it on Christmas night, you know, people so want to believe this that one guy says, well, Todd says we're not for sale now, but yeah, that could be because the company's already been sold. And so technically they're not for sale. Well, I think if a company was already sold and the transaction of that ilk that would happen, it would not, number one, it would not close on Christmas night. And we would have heard about it had it closed in the, you know, in the days prior to Christmas. So I think it's really something that it's an interesting thing to talk about. It's the story that I think, you know, it was just like, when are Mayweather and Pakeo going to fight, right? You were around during that.

And a million times I saw people write and I had a right story shooting a lot of this down. Sources tell me that Mayweather Pachio fight is done. And then two years later, it got done. And that person who wrote in, you know, 2013 that the fight was done. See, I was right. And, you know, that I think that's the kind of situation we have here. Yeah, you know, I think it had been discussed before. you know, I had talked to, you know, people on both sides about it for, you know, many times, you know, so it wasn't a new thing.

But it was not and never move forward and I don't believe it's going forward right now. Now maybe six months a year from now, you know, when contracts are different with the networks and everything, will they consider it perhaps? But, you know, I think right now there's much to do it made about nothing at this point. All right, so we both agree that as of right now, it's not happening. Let's play this out, though. Let's play the hypothetical out. Let's say that Endeavor does inquire top rank. You know the inner workings of UFC as well as anyone.

Is that a positive for boxing? Is that productive? How do you view a partnership or an acquisition by Endeavor, which would then own top rank boxing, UFC, and WWE? is that a positive? Well, I think it would be a shock to the system for boxing, first of all, right? I mean, and so it's going to change the way, you know, business is done. I think that they, you know, if they acquire a boxing company or if they start to, you know,

they can just go promote Callum Walsh fights on UFC Fight Pass right now. And they have a huge subscriber base and they'll make a ton of money just putting those fights up at 999 and doing that. But I think what Dana's plans are, you know, or his ambition, would be. I don't want to say plans because that makes it look like they're in the middle of doing something. But his ambitions, if he were to do this, would be to quote unquote, say, boxing, where we're in this thing now that 2023 has been a great year. A lot of the fights that we want to see are made, but there's always still things in the road. There's roadblocks that come up to making the fights

that we want to see. And, you know, when you look where the UFC is now, not every single fight ever gets made, but the vast majority of the fights that people want to see get made and are delivered and usually in a short time period. And that's what we want in boxing, because that's how you build stars, right? You know, why did Oscar D. La Jolla become so big? Especially on his buildup, Oscar became big, and I was there from his pro debut. He fought often, and once he became of a certain level, he was fighting increasingly good talent every time out. He fought the first time for his world title, not that could have an opponent, right, Johnny Bradol. But each time it picked up. And then once there were elite opponents out there, all he cared about is he didn't care about

who the opponent was. Does it make money? Does it make financial sense? Does it make business sense? And, you know, obviously they would say it did. He took the fights. And I think that's kind of what, you know, what the UFC, what Dana White would want to do with boxing if he got it.

You know, he wouldn't want to sit here and have this long bill to a with a Devin Haney-Jirvon to Davis fight. You know, it would drive him nuts. He would go crazy. to try to go through all this slog of, you know, well, Dravant is the bigger star and we're the one that make the offer. You know, Dana would lose his marbles. You know, he couldn't exist under that scene.

But if he could, you know, have the fighters and say, okay, we're going to fight it, you know, on this date, on March 1st and this place, you know, boom, and we'll have it done. That's, you know, that's kind of what his ambitions are, Chris. So I think that, you know, it might be bad for boxing at first because you would get segregated. But I think if he was successful, and he saw a path forward, I think it will be good for boxing because a company that is well

financed and that knows how to promote. I don't think anybody can question now who is the best promoter in combat sports and its UFC by far, by a long shot right now and what they do. And if they were able to add boxing into that stable, I think in the maybe in the short term, some people, some boxing lifers wouldn't like it, but I think in the long term, as it played out, I think it would be a really net positive. Yeah, and I just think that ambition is ambitious, for lack of a better word. Right. I agree. Because you need to do that, you need to have the same kind of market share in boxing that UFC has in mixed martial arts. And that's challenging because you would not only have to acquire top rank. You'd also have to require PBC. You'd also have to require match room,

You know, and effectively control 85, 90% of the market when it comes to top talent. I don't dispute Dana's ability to promote events. I don't dispute UFC being the biggest promotional outfit in combat sports. But, you know, just acquiring top rank ain't it, right? No, I agree with that. But think back. Just think back. What you need to think back to is the days when they were first starting, right?

So when Zufa closed the deal to buy the UFC in 2001, the biggest promoter in MMA at the time was not the UFC. It was the pride fighting championship out of Japan. And they had all the big stars and the media would go to Japan to cover those fights. And slowly the UFC under Dana and Lorenzo Fertita were able to build it and have that change. And I think that to affect, I agree with you, you know, what you just said. but I think that would be, you know, they can play the long game on that if they have, if they have the ability to put on the kind of fights that they want to put on. So it's going to take a sea change.

Not only, you know, the fighters themselves also have to change their mindset, right? Because if they want to truly make the big money, you know, they have to rethink how they do things, fighting, you know, like the Charlo brothers, they both just fought. What was it, you know, once in 18 months for one of them and once in 30 months for the other? I mean, you can't be successful and you can't have a quality boxing promotion if your your best talent, your biggest name fighters are fighting that infrequently. Yeah, I agree. It's just an uphill battle.

It's an uphill battle. There's no doubt about that. And look, they're going, they're a multi-billion dollar company, you know, TKO, but they're also competing with multi-billionaires, right? like where Len Blavatnik, who owns DeZone, right, which funds match room and Golden Boy. And the Saudis got this, I was getting there, like the Saudis have quite literally a bottomless well of money to do whatever they want.

Right. And the sport of boxing. It's just there's so many challenges, so many pitfalls out there. I'm, I'm skeptical about, about their ability to ultimately do it. All right. Speaking of Saudi Arabia, I want to get into the two big fights that we saw there this past weekend. I want to begin with Deonté Wilder, who was upset by Joseph Parker,

not just upset, but completely dominated by Parker. This was a fight that I scored 12 rounds to zip, Kevin. I was shocked beyond words that there was, I think at least one judge had Deonté winning at least three rounds in that fight. I mean, just how? How do you find that? Like, if you could find one, I might buy it. All right, fine.

One round, one round, that was the most I thought you could give Deonté Wilder. The eyeball test supported that, the punch stats, back that up. I mean, he was outclassed by Joseph Parker. Not that Parker was this incredibly effective fighter in terms of his output, but he shut down Deontay Wilder. He made that right hand an ineffective weapon. I thought he had a phenomenal game plan coming into that fight. Andy Lee, his trainer.

look, they don't have the size of Tyson Fury so they couldn't do the exact same things, but their ability to keep that fight at a certain distance and their ability to see that right hand coming and when they did see it coming, to duck into it. That's what I saw every time, Kevin, every time Deontay Wilder loaded up for that right hand,

you saw Joseph Parker dipping his head and kind of putting it forward like a battering ram towards the midsection of Deonti Wilder, just closing that space quickly and not presenting Deonte with a hitable target. I thought that was excellent strategy, excellent boxing, an excellent performance overall by Joseph Parker.

That we have to say right off the bat. But now about Deontay, 38 years old, coming off a brutally bad performance, where does he go from here? He seemed to suggest in the ring that retirement was a possibility. He's walked that back since in multiple interviews,

his own Instagram. So if his career is going to continue, what does it look like? What did you make of everything you saw from Deontay Wilder in Saudi Arabia? I was really disappointed because, you know, Wilder, I like him as a fighter, right? I mean, you know, we all know he's not the classic boxer. He's not the guy that, you know, is going to wow you and think of Willie Pep and all those type of things, right? But Deontay Wilder, when he gets in there, you know, he provides action and he provides action. single time until Saturday, right? And while I agree to a large degree that Andy Lee had a great

game plan, and I think Andy Lee is a really highly regarded up-and-coming trainer, right? As good as he was as a fighter and he won a world title, I think he's going to have a bigger mark in this sport as a trainer going forward. I really believe that. He's a smart guy. But, you know, Deonti normally lets the hands go no matter what the opponent is doing against him. And you saw him in the first round, I mean, and I don't think just the first round. We saw, he landed, according to Compubog, zero punches in round one. He didn't even uncork it, right? He didn't even, you know, pull it back where you thought he was going to throw it.

He just followed Parker around the ring with his hand still. And that is nothing to do with Parker or Lee in their game plan. That was something to do with Wilder. And it makes me wonder, you know, he talked about whatever that stuff he's taken, you know, did it have an impact on him? you know, he looked in magnificent condition. If you would have stopped when he got off the way in and you saw him, you said, is this guy going to, you know, basically shit the bed? You know, no way you would say yes on that, right? I mean, 213 pounds. That's his ideal fighting range way.

Yeah. I think, you know, two, what I was going to say, 215 to 218, but yeah, 213, 218, I think that range is where, you know, where he's proven to be best. And he is so quick, right? and that's why he's good because he gets that those fast hands and he beats you to the punch a lot of times and he has that 83, 84 inch reach, which is difficult for guys and he just didn't let his hands go. If he had let his hands go in the first round, even taking a lot of counters from Joe Parker, you know, does that all of a sudden now, you know, change the way Parker fights that fight? And is that game plan effective that way? But when you don't throw, you know, you don't make the opponent have to worry about anything. And he gave away. I mean, a lot of.

a lot around, you know, like you kept saying, when is he going to start? When is he going to start? And he never really started. What was the most punches he landed in one round? I think it was six. He averaged three punches landed per round in that fight. I wrote in my column about that. I said his punch stats look like a golf score card. The only thing that you wouldn't mistake it for a golf score card was round one where you can't get a zero in golf. Otherwise, it was, you know, like a hack golfer out there, you know, three, six, five, four, you know, that, I mean, that's kind of what it was like. And, you know, I was really surprised. So I guess, you know, to go back a long way of answering your question, where does he go next?

I mean, assuming he is going to compete, you know, we got to get him back in the ring, you know, against a top 10 guy, I think quickly. I mean, it's a tough, there's a lot of tough matchups out there for him. Like, right, and who do you put it with? If we assume Herdovick is going to get the AJ fight, right? Is Zhang Jailia guy? Do you want to put the onto? You don't do that.

That's a bad idea. You saw the other day and against Jaili? No, no. He'd eat straight lefts from Zhang all night long. And good luck knocking that guy out. Right, exactly. That's what I can say. So now do we go step down to a guy who I think is on the way out because of the punishment

he's taken to you put him in with Joe Joyce and say, try to rehabilitate him against Joe Joyce? You know, I think Joe Joyce has the ability to knock him out if he hits him. Right. I mean, so Deonté is really in a tough spot. There's nobody on that card with the possible exception of one guy who is boring as all get out on that card and won his fight, which might be Frank Sanchez, you know, that Sanchez is, where is he ranked? And he's somewhere in the top. He's in the top 10. Top 10. His last couple of fights, he hasn't looked all that threatening. you know, and he might be a guy that Wilder can hit. He might be too skilled, though.

Like Frank Sanchez, for as dull as the first half of his fight was against Junior Fah, he's got skill, you know, really high-level skill. I mean, I'd lean more towards another guy in that card, Adjikabayel, who is kind of that fringy, world-level type coming off a big win of his own. I think he's more hitable than Frank Sanchez would be in those particular situations. I just, you know, we give Malik Scott a lot of credit for some of the things he's done with Wilder and with other fighters, including Zerda Ramirez, who I think he's had a positive impact on. But somebody had a tweet out that I saw right after the fight where they said in the last couple of years, Malik Scott has turned Deontay Wilder into Malik Scott, right? Where he's moving a lot.

Like seeing Wilder use every inch of that 20 by 20 foot ring was. bizarre. Like, this is the biggest puncher of his generation. One of the biggest punchers of all time. And he's bouncing around the ring like I expected Sonny Edwards to do a couple of weeks ago. Like, I don't, I didn't understand the strategy. And then when you get to the second half of the fight or even the final three or four rounds, I didn't sense urgency. There's zero urgency. Zero urgency. Like, zero urgency. Like, I thought it was notable that, going into the 12th round, the voice that was speaking the most in that corner was J.D.S. You know, J. Dees, who is the man that helped mold or did mold Deonté Wilder into the fighter he became.

You know, his longtime trainer who was supplanted after that second fight against Tyson Fury. You know, Malik's game plan was just strange as all hell. Having the biggest puncher of this generation move like a bantam weight was strange. as all hell. Like Wilder put his hand up at the end of that fight. I'm like, I'm sitting there. I'm like, what? I even asked him.

Like, did you really think you won? He's like, yeah, you know, I thought we did enough. Like, that's not possible. In no way could you have believed that you landed enough punches to beat Joseph Parker. That was insane. I'll tell you, Kevin, most disappointed, like, look, you and I both like Deonté a lot. Like, he's a likable guy. Like, I've covered him going all the way back to 2008.

I covered him going into the Beijing Olympics. I've been to Alabama multiple times, told this story in the magazine and on the web multiple times. He is one of the most media-friendly athletes, period, top-level athletes, period, or it has been that are out there. So it's been so crazy to see him devolve into this conspiracy theorist. Like the conspiracy theories he had after that second fight against Tyson Fury about the gloves and all the angles is showing on video, the crazy stuff he was saying after that fight.

And then he, we have the costume, well, the costume, like, only he knows the answer to that question. If that was really heavy, I don't know. But, you know, immediately after he leaves Saudi Arabia, he does this YouTube interview where he says that Anthony Joshua was happy that Deonté Wilder lost that fight. Never really wanted that fight. There was all this rumors that he was going to retire

if Wilder had won that fight. Let me tell you something, Kevin, because I was, there. And I can tell you that there was a whole elaborate thing planned if Wilder had won and if AJ had won. The contracts were done. AJ was going to do his interview. Wilder was going to come to the ring. I was going to bring both them together. There'd be some, you know, social media worthy moment and we'd be building towards March. Anthony Joshua was taking that fight. It was done. He was taking that fight. He wanted that fight. It's crazy. to think that AJ was happy that Deonté Wilder lost.

Because now AJ's probably, I say probably, because there are a lot of things that can happen, but probably going to have to go into a fight against Philip Hergevich, which is tough. Like, that's a tough fight. Philip Hergevich is really good. And he's certainly not going to bring the kind of cachet and the kind of money that a Deonti Wilder fight would bring.

So him, Kevin, going down, these conspiracy theory rabbit holes, just drive me crazy. And he does them oftentimes in interview settings where nobody calls him out on it. Like everybody just lets him go and say these things and he just kind of gets away with it. I just think the whole,

it's tough to watch because he is such a great guy. He's been such a great fighter. And you don't want to see him go out like this. But he's going out in one of the worst possible ways that he could go out. Well, I think there's differences. Now, I wrote on Friday before the fight and I got,

criticized for, you know, they should be fighting each other on that card. And everybody can say whatever they want about the day a reckoning card. And God bless them for getting so many of the guys together. But you had minus 1,600, minus 2,500. They weren't competitive fights. And it played out, you know, mostly in the ring, right? And the only underdog that won. Well, I guess there was two underdogs of one, but because of the G one as well.

Cabell, yeah, he won, yeah. Yeah. But as, you know, Dubois Miller was kind of a coin flip type of fight. It was close odds. But when you look at that and you go, why weren't wilder, this is the craziness that happens in boxing. They should have been. And I give wilder credit for a long time. He was chasing the AJ fight.

And the business of boxing or the mode of boxing, the way it works, put that fight off. That's always save it for the next one and build toward it. And that does, you know, Al Heyman got lucky with the Mayweather Pack. I don't want to say got lucky, but the Mayweather Paciel fight just. struck gold, right? But it was six years. But not every fight works that way. You know, that was a rare, rare, rare circumstance with those two particular individuals. And unfortunately, in boxing, you know, if you don't make the fights that people want to see, after a while, the people get sick of it, and then you have this happen. And I also wonder, did we see some

post-trauma of the Tyson Fury fights? Every fighter only has so much, so many punches he can take. So Wilder fought once, and it was basically a sparring session against Robert Heleneas, he never took a punch in that fight, landed one big shot, the fight was over. And that was a fight that, hey, look, it was on pay-per-view, and Heleneas had zero chance to win, right? So should that fight be on pay-per-view? But that's another story for another day. But the point being that he took all this abuse, got knocked down how many times, got hit, especially in those last two fights by a 270-pound guy who was good.

going forward and hit him clean shot after shot after shot. You know, maybe what we're seeing is, you know, Tyson Fury beat a lot of the fight out of Deonté and that, you know, that was the best he had left. You know, we don't know. I hope that's not the case because I'm like you. I like Deonti. I think he's a quality individual.

And he's good for boxing, right? It's good for boxing to have that big knockout puncher and that big personality. I'm also with you that I think the conspiracy theories, get tired and he's listening to some people that I don't think have his best interest at heart but having said that I think Shelley Finkel could have a much bigger

Shelly kept saying at the Post-Fight press conference I'm a man of few words well when he should have words is when he's talking to Deonti about some of that crazy stuff that you described before and you know and whatnot Shelley doesn't believe it Shelley doesn't believe any of it

he knows it's not right but he's got to get involved I think he what I'm saying is I think he is reticent to get involved and confront Deonti about some of the bad BS to hurt his own position. He wants to protect his own position as opposed to going forward and saying, hey, Deontay, this is what's best for you and what you're saying is incorrect and wrong and it's going to hurt you. And so let's, you know, he doesn't want to do that. He wants to protect his own position and protect the, you know, the paycheck and whatever.

And okay, you did. You protected it. But now what do you have? Yeah. You've got a fighter that has really seemed to lost his way. And I'm of the opinion, Kevin, that the only way you can make Wilder Joshua viable again is, or at least viable at the level it needs to be viable at, is to have Wilder run it back with Parker. And I don't know if it ends any differently, but I think maybe you try to run that back March or April. You do it again in Saudi Arabia.

And if Wilder can score a knockout, then you can kind of treat it the same way. way that AJ tweeted the Ruiz fight, right, where he bounced back with a win, got back into the big fights immediately after that to me is the only pathway to making Wilder Joshua the caliber of fight that it needs to be. And like I said, I don't know that he wins that fight. Kevin, that right hand was so telegraphed. Yeah. It was so like he was, it was like happy Gilmore-esque where he's stepping into it. Right. That made it so obvious for Joe Parker to dip his head or to move a different direction and get out of the way of it. Yeah, he landed it glancingly a couple of times and Joe even acknowledged afterwards that dude can crack and he can. But I don't know that he wins a rematch,

not against that version of Joe Parker, who is proving Kevin again the value of activity. That was the fourth fight of the year for Joseph Parker. Yeah, you look at the three guys he fought and you could criticize him, right? Who are the three guys he fought? Like total nobody's. Nobody's. Nobody's active. He's in the ring. He's working things out with Andy Lee. Like, you know, he's in training camp all the time. Like, there's value in that. We see it time and time again. That's why Anthony Joshua, we're going to get to in a minute.

That's why he was saying at the end of last year, I got to stay active. That's why he fought three times in 2023. Like you have to stay active if you want to continue to fight on elite level. Before we move on, let me wrap one. Say one thing. I agree with you for the most part, but I don't think specifically it has to be Parker, you know, because you go back and just think of Muhammad Ali, Ken Norton, you know, gave him nightmares all those years.

And, you know, he was never going to beat Ken Norton cleanly, right? No matter when they fought, if they were 25, 35, 45, or if they fought in the street when they were 65, it was going to be the same kind of fight. But you got to get him a good win, a win, a Deonté Wilder type one over a recognizable opponent. And if he does. How about Andy Ruiz? I'll be throwing out of Andy Ruiz.

Yeah, I think Andy Ruiz would be a great one. If he beat Andy Ruiz and the manner that Deonté Wilder has won other fights, then I think you can sell Joshua Wilder. Hey, he's back. He fought Joe Parker who, you know, they can make the argument. Joe Parker came to fight. So this isn't me saying this. This is them saying it. Hey, Joe, Joe didn't really want to fight and he fought, you know, he kind of fought not to lose and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, they can sell it if he beats somebody recognizable, a big, powerful guy that, you know, would be there. But I agree with you from the standpoint. He needs a very convincing, emphatic win over a recognizable quality heavyweight.

And Ruiz has the same problems that Deontes had. He's been more inactive than Deonté. He won his last fight against Luis Ortiz, but he looked a little chiny in that fight. And who is he to be criticizing AJ? Well, he just wants the payday. He is so hungry for that payday for that trilogy. He kept saying trilogy, this wasn't like, you know, you got the fight back in 2019. You scored one of the biggest upsets.

we've seen in a long time. You got the rematch. You had an opportunity. You ate your way out of it. I don't see Andy Ruiz getting that third fight with Anthony Joshua, not anytime soon. That's for sure. All right. Let's talk about AJ and that performance.

Third fight of the year for AJ in 2020. And I thought that was his best performance. He comes in against the guy that I thought was very credible in Otto Wallen. I said before the fight, I thought if there was going to be an upset on the last four fights of the card, it was going to be Ottawa Wallen. against Anthony Joshua because Otto was coming in, riding a six-fight winning streak, looked really good in his win over Murat Gassiev, has a really good boxing mind in his corner in Joey Gamash. A lot of things were working for Otto going into that fight.

Had a lot of familiarity with AJ, fought him a couple of times in the amateurs, sparred him a bunch of times back in 2016. So Otto knew exactly what he was getting into, and he just got run over, Kevin. Like this wasn't the AJ from pre-2017, the one that we saw, you know, steamrolling Charles Martin and battering Dillion White. But this was a much more active AJ than the one we've seen since the Andy Ruiz knockout. Like he was out there throwing right hands, following it up, broke the nose of auto ball in those early rounds, and eventually gets him to stop after the fifth. I was really impressed with Anthony Joshua in that fight. What say you?

I was impressed. I think maybe a step down from what you and Eddie Hearn were. Like, you know, I thought Eddie kind of blew it out of. Eddie Hearn said he's all the way back. Eddie said he's all the way back. I thought Eddie blew it a little bit out of proportion. But I thought, hey, it was a big step forward, right? Now, I think with AJ, the reason I think Autovolum was a good opponent for him is Otto doesn't hit really hard. Right. So, you know, even Usik, I think, is a harder hitter than Otto. So AJ knew, hey, I could be aggressive and I'm not having to worry about what's coming back. I think at one point in his career, AJ had 100% confidence in his chin, and that's why he fought Klitsko the way he did, right? He knew Klitsko was an, you know,

he Klitsko was an all-time great puncher, right? I mean, look at what his career would tell you. And AJ went in there and, you know, had disregard and he really fought aggressively, and he put himself in danger in that fight. And of course, he won it. And it was impressive that he won. I think the Ruiz fight on, you know, he's been a little more, you know, reluctant to engage. And, you know, I think he has in the back of his mind somewhere that his chin isn't what it once was and doesn't want to take those risks. So as he's fighting auto Valene, I think he's looking at it like, hey, this guy is not, you know, he may move and give me a hard time with his footwork and angles he creates, but I don't have to worry about getting dropped if I'm attacking him.

And I thought AJ, his confidence, I thought if you look at the performance in the first run compared to the fifth round, I thought he really got better, right? He picked up his volume. And I, and I thought he was thrown with more authority as the fight went on. And you could see his confidence growing. And I think if had that fight gone on into the sixth, seventh, or eighth round, I think you would have seen Valene on the floor and, you know, somebody throwing the towel in. You know, I go back to my New England days.

That's how long I've known Joey Gamash back when he was fighting in the Vermont Golden Gloves. And I used to sit there at the Burlington Memorial Auditorium covering a bunch of farmers fighting. And then Joey Gamash, right? But Joey is a smart guy. I think he saw where that was going. And, you know, guys have fought with broken noses before. But I think Joey knew, okay, he has a broken nose. Yeah.

Difficulty breathing. And this isn't getting better. Save the guy some trouble. Don't let him get really beat up because he can come back and still be a viable contender. If he had gotten destroyed by fighting three more rounds from a six foot, six, 200 and whatever he weighed 50 pound, Anthony, Joshua, who had, you know, bad intentions on those punches. I think that would have been bad for Otto. So smart move by Joey. Yeah, smart move by Joey, you're right.

Because Otto doesn't have, like you said, that game changing power. So he couldn't change it with just one shot. It would have ended badly. Like, I give Otto credit for staying on his feet during some of those exchanges. I agree. He got hit with some absolute bombs and he was able to stay up there on his feet. Look, I think this version of AJ being active has helped. I think.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports. sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs?

Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day but just so y'all know I mean at this point Mark this is the second episode where we've discussed crack so I'm starting to see there's a through line

We also have AIDS on the table right now so Thank you finishing that sentence I don't think there's a more important year for black people Really? Yeah for me

It's one of the most important years for black people in American history Listen to look back at it On the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts Or wherever you get your podcasts Fighting three times in a year has helped, going from Jermaine Franklin, who presented one style,

to Robert Hellenius, who presented another style, to what we saw from Otto Wallin, who presented a third style. These types of fights have made him better. I also think he's found something with Ben Davison. And look, it just felt like during the week, and even before, Kevin, when I interviewed Anthony Joshua a couple of times, like, he had made it clear even before the fight that this partnership with Ben Davison was not going to be a one-off. That's how comfortable he felt with Ben, with Lee Wiley, with the people that are part of

that Ben Davidson Academy that he was working with day in, day out. Sometimes you just find something that works. We've seen it in the past where, you know, whether it's Vladimir Klitsko linking up with Emmanuel Stewart, Lennox Lewis linking up with Emmanuel Stewart, Miguel Codell linking up with Freddie Roach. Sometimes you find a guy that you just click with. And it seemed all throughout that fight week and certainly seeing the fight play out in the ring,

that there's something that works with Ben Davison and Anthony Joshua. So I think that is going to be a positive for AJ going into next year where who knows what can happen at this point. Like we assume, we're kind of operating, I think, under the assumption that Fury Usik is a two-fight deal. It may not be. A lot can change, though. Like, you know, it's the Saudis that are putting up.

up the money for all this. Like, you know, who knows how things can change in, if Saudi Arabia believes that AJ versus Fury is, if Fury goes out and dominates Usik as a more marketable fight, they might pay Usik to, you know, find the undercut. They can do a lot of different things. There are a lot of ways this can change. But if it does follow the path of two-fight deal, now we've got AJ, most likely against Philip Hergovich for a vacant title, because all four belts will be on the line in mid-February. afterwards we expect them to fracture because these guys are not going to defend in mandatory title defenses yeah yeah you're not going to go that way and the ibf i think is going to be

the first to go so a j hergevich does that performance by a jay against auto make you believe in an a j win over herkovich i mean i would favor him at this point if you told me that was the fight coming up i would favor a jay to win that fight do i think it was a slam dunk when i go out there and tell people bet everything you have on AJ. No, you know, I don't think so. But I think that AJ would have a lot going for me to have the confidence. And you were mentioning three times fighting in, in 2023, but when was that Ussick fight in 22, right? It was toward the end of the year. Was it September October, right? So you're packing a lot of fights into a short period of span. So that even amplifies your point about activity. And now, you know, I think like, hey, look, AJ's been with a lot of great

trainers, right? I don't think I would classify Rod McCracken as a great trainer, but he deserved to be considered a good trainer because look what he did with Anthony, right? He brought him from the beginning to heavyweight champion in the world and not just heavyweight champion in the world, but ununified heavyweight champion in the world. But, you know, in terms of the other trainers that are out there and that AJ work with, you know, Robert Garcia is one of the best trainers in the world, a Hall of Famer, no question about it. Derek James, I think the same way, you know, Derek James is going to end up in the Hall of Fame as a boxing trainer. And now you go to Ben Davidson.

And Ben Davidson, to me, is a really, really smart guy. I like what he did, you know, with Josh Taylor, you know, coming up in the way he got, you know, got Taylor ready for his fights. I think Ben Davidson is a smart guy and a trainer that you're going to see more. Right. Great job there. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

And so I think, you know, there's a lot going on there that I believe will help, you know, will help Ben, you know, Ben Davidson and Anthony Joshua working. working together be a good combination. So I certainly like the fact that AJ could beat Hergevik, and I think that, you know, I would favor him to do so. But it's a fight, which is fun. That's what we want. We want fights. We don't want to go to a fight where we know, you know,

every now and then when, you know, like and I wrote a call, my betting column last week about it, and I talked about the widespread and, you know, and everything. And of course, Dan Rayfield is out there, you know, saying, oh, you've got boxing fans are never happy. Well, no, we're not happy. because we don't want to see 17 to 1 and 10 to 1 fights. We want to see 2 to 1 and 1 and 1 1 and 1 1 and 1 1 1 and 1 1 1

that's the kind of fights we want. And those are the fights that could have been made on that show, you know, had it been done differently. But having said that, you know, I think Herkovick is a good opponent for Anthony in March if he doesn't, you know, get somebody else. And, you know, you can't dismiss the Francis and Ghanu factor. I hope that they don't go that route.

I'm not in. We've talked about it before. I'm not into those fights, but I think there's money in that fight for some reason, even though it did so poorly in the U.S. on pay-per-view. Basically, you know, the Fury and Gunnu fight sold literally next to nothing on pay-per-view. And so, you know, but the Saudis don't care about U.S. pay-per-view, right? And so if they decide they want that fight, we might get that instead of heard of it. Yeah, look, I think AJ, though, is going to push hard to get that third title reign.

just being around him, and I know money talks, of course, and it's business first, but I think he's going to push for that Herkovich fight, and I think that's an excellent fight. Herkovich, in my mind, was kind of demystified by Jaylie Zhang in that fight a couple of years ago, but he's still more than credible, undefeated, good power, great skill, former Olympian. Like, there's a lot to like about Philip Herkovich. I thought Herkovich gave, you know, Zhang a really good fight in that fight, but I thought He did. No, but before that, Kevin, he was kind of like the boogeyman. I don't think he was the boogeyman coming out of that is what I'm saying.

No, but I mean, my memory, and maybe I'm wrong, but my memories, I thought Hergevick won that fight. Close, but my memory right now is that I thought he wanted a close fight. And like, so I think there's a number of good heavy, like, who was criticizing the current heavy weights? Somebody was just ripping the heavy weights really, really poorly, badly and saying the heavyweights are terrible right now. I'm not sure I agree with that, but maybe not as good as I thought they could have been, but certainly better. So there's a lot of good guys out there, and Herkovic certainly is one of those. Look, you can make great fights in the heavyweight division. I mean, nobody's going to want to fight him, but let's do Jé Lie Zhang against Daniel Dubois

in February or March. Ajicabayal put himself back in the mix. He was rumored to be at AJ or Fury opponent over the last couple of years. He's still undefeated. He just knocked out this top-rank prospect. Jared Anderson is still out there. I loved Hercovich's answer when I asked him about Jared Anderson, saying Jared Anderson for breakfast. Like, I love that.

Like, give me more of that kind of trash talk. But you've got 10 guys that can make competitive fights. And that's not something we've been able to say about the heavyweight division for quite some time. All right. Let's talk finally about the fighter of the year. And specifically, Kevin, this is both. the most crowded fighter of the year field that I can remember, at least in a number of years,

and definitely an award that has gone the latest before you could have a real debate about it, in your own mind. Because you got just this past Tuesday, you had Neoya in a way becoming undisputed in a second way class, knocking out Marlon Topales over in Japan. And now you've got a field that at a minimum includes three guys. Terrence Crawford, Inouye, Devin, Haney. You might be able to throw David Benavides in that mix. You could even throw Giovante Davis if you want it into that mix.

You've got some depth for Fighter of the Year that you haven't seen in some times. Let me ask you specific to Inouye. What you saw against Marlon Topales, how much does that move the needle for you when it comes to making your choice for Fighter of the Year? It moves it quite a bit because Tappalus is a good fighter. He was a unified champion. And you know what? You can win championships and not be a good fighter. But Tepalos showed in that fight.

He is a good fighter. He fought well. He fought smart. He showed that he deserved to be a unified champion, right? He's at that skill level. And Noia Inouye just took him apart. I think he won what all rounds on one scorecard, you know, lost one run on one and two runs on another. He was just amazing. And I think when you look at it, like Crawford's win over Spence

was so impressive. And Crawford made the argument for himself today on social media saying, I'm the fighter of the year. Look who I beat. Look at the manner in which he beat him. And that is a really good argument. I mean, you cannot, you know, go against that argument. But you're looking at what Stephen Fulton was pound for, you know, pound on the verge for a lot of people when he fought. Top 15-ish. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he was like in that 11 to 15. you know, range when he fought in a way in what was it, June, I think it was. And in a way, destroys him, right? Just blows a guy that we think could be in the top 10, just blows him away.

Then he comes back against a guy that clearly was a good champion. And he, you know, I don't want to say blows him away, but he made no doubt as to who the better fighter was. Crawford, I think, has an argument because he beat maybe the best fighter, any of the other guys had beaten in, and Errol Spent, you know. Or else spent was really highly regarded by a lot of people. I had them like five or six at the time of the Crawford fight. Some people had them higher than that.

I know somebody that had them as high as two when they fought. So that's a huge win. But Terrence fought that one time. And if Inouye didn't look the way he did against Topalas, I might go with him in that fight. Devin Haney, I think, just, you know, loses out because, you know, number one, how poorly reaches progray fought. Like, I mean, Regis Prograde just had no resistance. And then a lot of people, including myself, thought Loma won the fight against Haney, right?

I thought Loma pulled that fight out. It was one I concede you could go, you know, either way. But it was so close now when we're picking Fighter of the Year, I think that you can't have a fight like that where some people thought you lost and say, this guy is the fighter of the year. And David Benavides in some years would be the fighter of the year. This year, zero chance. If anybody votes for David Benevitus and their last name doesn't end in a Z, then, you know, we know there's, you know, something, some money exchange in hand because David just certainly does not have the wins over the quality opponents this year that he needs to get into that race. Let me make the case for Devin Haney here. And I haven't made up my mind altogether.

I was waiting until the in-of-way fight was finished to kind of really evaluate who the fighter of the year should be. Look, if you had Lomachenko winning that fight, I have no debate with you, but my counter argument is that when you get two really highly skilled guys in the ring together who are going to fight a chess match, this is what you're going to wind up with, right? You're going to wind up with close rounds, and you're going to wind up with close scorecards. So I'm not going to take that win away from Devin Haney when I consider. In fact, I'm going to give it to. I'm going to give him credit for,

in his first real title defense post Cambosis, taking the fight with Lomocheco. Didn't have to do that. I could have fought a number of guys. Took the fight against Lomachenko and beat him, I thought, Theran Square. Again, if you thought Lomchenko won, fine, but the idea that the Nevada commission

was going to overturn it as Agis Clemmas was pushing for, like, come on, let's get real here. Like, it was a close fight that was won by Devin Haney. And then, you're right, Regis Progray offered no resistance, but sitting there ringside for that fight, Kevin, a lot of that was because Devin was so frigging, good. Like Devin had a masterful game plan going into that fight. He kept, he kept Regis moving.

He kept away from that left hand. And he made sure in that early rounds, Regis knew he had pop. He dropped Regis in the third round of that fight, which made it made Regis a lot more wary of coming in just recklessly like we've seen Regis do in the past. So as much of it as I put on Regis Pro Graper not looking good, I put just as much on Devin Haney for looking good. That's why I, like, when I think of like the awards, like I have Devin Haney among the finalists for Fighter of the Year, and I've got Bill Haney amongst the finalist for trainer of the year because Bill Haney devised the game plans. You know, along with some others, you know, took in the information that people come into Devin's camp,

but you spend time around Bill. Bill is a really smart guy. Like his game plans against Lomachenko, excellent. Against Progrey, excellent. Those are two high-level wins that Team Haney scored in this calendar. a year. That's why I think it puts both of them in the mix for those respective awards. No, I don't disagree. I mean, I thought you might say, you know, that Devin would be in a position for another thing called performance of the year, right?

We don't really get that out. But, you know, Terrence Crawford's win over Spence, I think would have to win that. But Devin would be in that, the performance against Regis Procray, a former world champion who had only lost one fight in a close fight at that. He was just totally dismantled in that fight. And Haney, I thought that was the performance of Devin Haney's lifetime, right? I mean, I don't think he ever fought better as a professional than he did on that day in San Francisco. And, you know, so I agree with you. I just think that you're talking about, you know, history making wins for Inouye and Crawford.

And especially in Inouye's part, you know, doing it twice and being as active as he has been and going out there. And the pressure on him was intense, right? I mean, you know, that pressure on him yesterday or Tuesday, excuse me, was crazy, right? And for him to be able to, you know, perform under the circumstances he did, I thought there's a lot about the kid. And there was people I saw debating on Facebook after the fight, should he make the Hall of Fame? I said, he is in the Hall of Fame no matter what else he does. Like if he retires today, he doesn't have to fight another day. He's a Hall of Famer.

But to me, I think just his activity and the winds over. the two guys he had. I think Devin deserves to be in the race. And I can make an argument in other years for all of those guys, including Benavides, in there. But I think this year, I think, you know, it has to be a two-horse race, really. And if you, if you, when you make up your mind, Chris, if you decide to go Terrence Crawford, I'm going to, you know, bow and say, you know, I can't disagree with that. Terrence's argument that he made on social media on behalf of himself is a valid one. I just think the fact that Haney did it against similar level opponent, I mean, on Hengen, excuse me,

anyway, did it against similar level opponents twice, I think gives him the edge there. I think, look, Freudian slip or not, I think Haney did it against good, like, look, not the, Fulton was the great win on the resume. Maybe it's because I thought coming in, Kevin, I didn't think much of Tappales. Like, I made jokes on this podcast that I hope that Sean Gibbons

and Marlon Tappas got a good payday because they were going to Japan to get their ass kicked. Like I saw the De Palis Akhmedalia fight. Tepalas won that fight, clean. But I thought that had much to do with Akhma Dahlia of looking flat as Tepalas looking great in that fight. So I didn't think of him as a threat going into this fight. I thought Fulton was a threat, but I didn't think of Tepalas as a threat going into this

fight. Looking at the last two Haney fights. Lomachenko, live dog, if he was a dog, going into that fight. I thought Regis, live dog going into that fight. I was probably more bullish on Regis's chances that other people were. You admit, yeah. But I thought Regis, look, I thought Regis at 140, his weight class, you know, how motivated he was going into that fight. The trash talk was next level going into that fight.

I thought Regis was a live dog there and Devin won clean in both those fights. So it's going to be tough, man. It's going to be real tough to come to a decision on this. Yeah, no, I mean, to me, the only thing I agree with so much of what you said, the only thing I disagree with is that last line. It's not, to me, it's not that tough. It's no way you're Terrence Crawford, and I go Terrence Crawford. But, you know, I understand you go another.

I get it. Another way. I get it. I get it. I mean, it will come down to do you believe Crawford's one win was enough? I think that's what people are going to debate a lot over these next couple of days before they make their respective choices for a fighter of the year. I just, again, I wish Crawford had taken.

Go ahead. Well, I was going to say, what will help him is he feels. finish the fight, right? If he had gone decision and 120, you know, 106 or whatever it would have been, great win, but, you know, hey, but now you finish him and you finish a guy of the quality of rural spends. Yeah. Then, you know, it changed it. But yeah, I'm going to stick with Enoe. Yeah. I, it's going to be tough. No question about it. Kevin, you are now writing for your own site, man. I asked you at the top of the show about some of it, but, uh, what can people expect on Kevin Ioli.com?

Well, starting sometime in January, I'm not sure exactly when I'm going to have a new website and an app that goes with it. And the app is really going to be good. So if you're on your phone, whatever, you can get notifications, I'm going to cover MMA boxing. I'm going to add in not a lot of this. The bare-knuckle fighting, I'm going to try to write it a little bit. I think that, you know, there's some fighters of interest out there.

And on the slab fighting, I think I'm going to just do video, right? I think that me writing on slap fighting is not going to hit an audience that is going to want to read about that fight. But if you can get some video, so that'll mostly be what I do. But I think that the site and the app are going to be so good. It's going to surprise people how good it looks. And I'm going to have video on there. I'm going to do a boxing podcast with Breadman Edwards.

I'm going to do an MMA podcast. Don't have a co-host yet. I may end up starting that one by myself and then finding a co-host. but we're going to have a lot of multimedia on their interview. I'm going to put interviews on this site. I'm going to be, so when I was at Yahoo, and you know how this is, you know, you've worked at all the, you worked at Yahoo specifically and Sports Illustrated now.

You're a general interest sports site, right? So now I've gone from that where there's certain stories that I just can't write about, even though I would want to because I love boxing or I love MMA. Now at a combat only specific site, everybody coming to my site is, combat sports fans, so I don't have to explain who these young fighters are. And, you know, they're into it. And they want to see it. And they want to see the breaking news.

And they want to see the analysis and the features, not just of the biggest names, but of all the fighters. And so I'm going to try to give a lot of all that stuff and put it in a big pot and see, you know, see how it comes out. I'm excited about it. And I've never been more excited about waking up in the morning and going to work than when I look in the mirror and see that really nice boss I have I'm working for right now. That's good stuff, Kevin.

Well, you know I'll be a regular visitor to that site. Kevin Ioli.com. Check out the app in January when it comes out. Kevin, good stuff, man. Happy holidays. And we'll do it again next year. Same to you, brother. Thank you.

Appreciate it. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Kevin Ioli for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. And I'll see you next week. Thank you so much. I go sleep.

Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not. not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to and learn the hard. way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing.

How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.